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Gingersnap
08-20-2010, 01:06 PM
They won't build it! Hardhats vow not to work on controversial mosque near Ground Zero

BY Samuel Goldsmith
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Friday, August 20th 2010, 4:00 AM

http://i35.tinypic.com/e185mu.jpg
The site of the proposed mosque near Ground Zero. Many construction workers are vowing not to work on the controversial project.

http://i36.tinypic.com/bgps0l.jpg
Blaster David Kaiser's hardhat says what he thinks of the mosque planned for Park Place, near Ground Zero.

Supporters, opponents debate merits of controversial plan to build mosque near Ground ZeroA growing number of New York construction workers are vowing not to work on the mosque planned near Ground Zero.

"It's a very touchy thing because they want to do this on sacred ground," said Dave Kaiser, 38, a blaster who is working to rebuild the World Trade Center site. "I wouldn't work there, especially after I found out about what the imam said about U.S. policy being responsible for 9/11," Kaiser said.

The grass-roots movement is gaining momentum on the Internet. One construction worker created the "Hard Hat Pledge" on his blog and asked others to vow not to work on the project if it stays on Park Place.

"Thousands of people are signing up from all over the country," said creator Andy Sullivan, a construction worker from Brooklyn. "People who sell glass, steel, lumber, insurance. They are all refusing to do work if they build there."

"Hopefully, this will be a tool to get them to move it," he said. "I got a problem with this ostentatious building looming over Ground Zero."

A planned 13-story community center and mosque two blocks from Ground Zero, Park51 has exploded into a national debate.

Louis Coletti, president of the Building Trades Employers' Association, said unions have not yet taken a "formal position" on Park51, but he understands why members would be hesitant to work there.

"It's a very difficult dilemma for the contractors and the organized labor force because we are experiencing such high levels of unemployment," he said. "Yet at the same time, this is a very sacred sight to the union guys."



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/08/20/2010-08-20_we_wont_build_it_hardhats_say_no_way_they_will_ work_on_wtc_mosque.html#ixzz0xANjFwCh

Articulate_Ape
08-20-2010, 01:26 PM
Unsurprising. I think we all knew something like this would happen. They might have the right to build it, but they don't have the right to get it built.

Bailey
08-20-2010, 01:36 PM
Unsurprising. I think we all knew something like this would happen. They might have the right to build it, but they don't have the right to get it built.


I dont want to be a negitive nancy but I know some greedy builder in the long run will take the money and do the work.

I hope their crew does a substandard job. :D

Articulate_Ape
08-20-2010, 01:50 PM
I dont want to be a negitive nancy but I know some greedy builder in the long run will take the money and do the work.

I hope their crew does a substandard job. :D

Maybe, but it might be the last job they get for a while. People are pretty upset about this.

lacarnut
08-20-2010, 01:56 PM
It will never get built. Union labor will not work on it; importing non union labor will stirr up a lot of trouble that will get very ugly.

Odysseus
08-20-2010, 02:07 PM
I dont want to be a negitive nancy but I know some greedy builder in the long run will take the money and do the work.

I hope their crew does a substandard job. :D

They'll have an interesting time if the construction unions refuse to work on it. They'll have to use non-union labor, which may not even be possible in NYC, given the union rules there. Can you imagine the state and city trying to push through an exemption in order to allow non-union workers on the site, after Obama refused to sign an executive order to allow non-union ship crews to stop the oil spill? Talk about a PR nightmare for the left. Not only will the construction unions oppose it, but the FDNY union. And the Fire Department still has to approve all plans and inspect everything that's done, which means that every bureaucratic hurdle in that department will be in the way, which means that nothing will get done. For that matter, can you imagine the non-union workers trying to cross that picket line, with the NYPD sitting on its hands (they lost quite a few people on 9/11, too)?

If Bloomberg tries to force the issue from above, he'll be looking at a serious labor rebellion, and the beauty of it is that the unions will be fighting against their Democratic masters. That's the kind of schism that can suppress turnout just when the Democrats need it most.

Expect about 3-5 percentage points in any competitive house races within 100 miles of NYC to shift towards the GOP.

Satanicus
08-20-2010, 02:43 PM
I wonder why these guys don't care about a church being across the street from the Murrah Federal Building after a right wing christian blew it up ?

These hacks wouldn't know freedom of religion if it cracked their hard hat.

Satanicus
08-20-2010, 02:45 PM
Expect about 3-5 percentage points in any competitive house races within 100 miles of NYC to shift towards the GOP.

Shows what insight you have.

This won't even be an issue, it will die within a months time.

Articulate_Ape
08-20-2010, 02:48 PM
Shows what insight you have.

This won't even be an issue, it will die within a months time.

Dream on.

Satanicus
08-20-2010, 02:53 PM
Dream on.

The entire issue will be resolved soon.

It's a no brainer. It will be built , just not there.

Wait for it ..... breaking news within a months time.

hampshirebrit
08-20-2010, 03:02 PM
The entire issue will be resolved soon.

It's a no brainer. It will be built , just not there.

Wait for it ..... breaking news within a months time.

Either it's breaking news within a month's time or it's going to die within a months time. Which is it?

Satanicus
08-20-2010, 03:08 PM
Either it's breaking news within a month's time or it's going to die within a months time. Which is it?

Both.

Breaking news that will tell you the issue has been resolved.

Articulate_Ape
08-20-2010, 03:10 PM
Both.

Breaking news that will tell you the issue has been resolved.

WWII was resolved too, but no one has forgotten Neville Chamberlain.


Just to get you up to speed, picture this guy times several million other New Yorkers and tens of millions of other voters around the country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm-6Uj_Eb7k




I suggest you get a hardhat for November 2nd, you're gonna need it.

lacarnut
08-20-2010, 03:24 PM
Both.

Breaking news that will tell you the issue has been resolved.

Obama, Bloomberg, Pisslosi and other idiot Democrats will be saddled with their stupidity for the rest of their lives for supporting the building site. You can book it.

Mayor Bloomberg can forget about getting elected to Dog Catcher in NYC.

Jfor
08-20-2010, 03:36 PM
I wonder why these guys don't care about a church being across the street from the Murrah Federal Building after a right wing christian blew it up ?

These hacks wouldn't know freedom of religion if it cracked their hard hat.

Hey dipshit... You don't see Christians running around applauding what that lunatic did, do you? It has nothing to about freedom of religion and everything to do about about the location. You are totally spouting off talking points. I have seen your same argument all over the web.

asdf2231
08-20-2010, 03:40 PM
I dont want to be a negitive nancy but I know some greedy builder in the long run will take the money and do the work.

I hope their crew does a substandard job. :D

goes deeper than that Bailey. On 911 the dust was still settling and almost every fire company on the island was retreating, reeling or dying with most of their equipment crushed, disabled or burning. The Emergency Services were overwhelmed also even with what seemed like every retiree who could walk or hobble heading into the houses and gearing up.

Almost the very first outside parties to respond were the American Red Cross, elements of the New York National Gaurd and... Steel Workers.

These guys flooded into the site initially with gear that they either walked off of job sites with or "borrowed" from company stocks and they waded into the pile and spent the rest of the recovery period there cutting steel and walking beams over crevases that would have taken ES guys two hours to circumnavigate while checking for victims.

They were part of the institutional soul of what unfolded after and before long it wasn't just the high steel guys and the welders, it was crews of workers from Jersey and as far away as Connecticutt.

New Yorkers have absolutely no love for the people that attacked their island. The construction guys are gonna buck the union and if the unions push too hard they will find their leadership being shaken up.

And God (or Allah as the case may be) help anyone who comes in from out of state or trucks in workers from somewhere else.

hampshirebrit
08-20-2010, 03:40 PM
I wonder why these guys don't care about a church being across the street from the Murrah Federal Building after a right wing christian blew it up ?

These hacks wouldn't know freedom of religion if it cracked their hard hat.

Jeepers, you really are as stupid as everyone says, aren't you.

Articulate_Ape
08-20-2010, 03:47 PM
Why yes, hamp, yes he is.

FlaGator
08-20-2010, 04:06 PM
I wonder why these guys don't care about a church being across the street from the Murrah Federal Building after a right wing christian blew it up ?

These hacks wouldn't know freedom of religion if it cracked their hard hat.

I'm going to violate one of my own personal rules about not attacking the speaker, but just the message.

You are an idiot.

Timothy McVey was about as much of a Christian as you are fish but you are gullible enough to believe everything you read at DU so it doesn't surprise me in the least that you operate on little actual information and then only on the information that fits in to you myopic view of the world whether that information is true of false.

FlaGator
08-20-2010, 04:10 PM
Jeepers, you really are as stupid as everyone says, aren't you.

I seriously wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt but I realize that I was wrong. He truly is stupid. I don't believe that in the last 4 1/2 years here at CU I have called anyone stupid or an idiot. Not wilbur, not Night Owl, not CW, not anyone, but I think I have actually stumbled on someone who is so much of an moron that I don't think I'm being disrespectful in pointing out that he doesn't just say stupid things, he is stupid.

Articulate_Ape
08-20-2010, 04:18 PM
I seriously wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt but I realize that I was wrong. He truly is stupid. I don't believe that in the last 4 1/2 years here at CU I have called anyone stupid or an idiot. Not wilbur, not Night Owl, not CW, not anyone, but I think I have actually stumbled on someone who is so much of an moron that I don't think I'm being disrespectful in pointing out that he doesn't just say stupid things, he is stupid.

Here ya go (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=28990), Gator. You know, for future reference? :)

Rockntractor
08-20-2010, 04:19 PM
I seriously wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt but I realize that I was wrong. He truly is stupid. I don't believe that in the last 4 1/2 years here at CU I have called anyone stupid or an idiot. Not wilbur, not Night Owl, not CW, not anyone, but I think I have actually stumbled on someone who is so much of an moron that I don't think I'm being disrespectful in pointing out that he doesn't just say stupid things, he is stupid.
He has to have someone help him while he posts or he would forget to breath.

Arroyo_Doble
08-20-2010, 04:23 PM
You know Lewis Carroll is God when conservatives start to applaud union members for not working.

Satanicus
08-20-2010, 04:24 PM
Timothy McVey was about as much of a Christian as you are fish but you are gullible enough to believe everything you read at DU so it doesn't surprise me in the least that you operate on little actual information and then only on the information that fits in to you myopic view of the world whether that information is true of false.

How about Terry Nichols ?

Huh ?

FlaGator
08-20-2010, 04:24 PM
You know Lewis Carroll is God when conservatives start to applaud union members for not working.

We're not applauding them for not working as much as we are for doing the right thing.

FlaGator
08-20-2010, 04:28 PM
How about Terry Nichols ?

Huh ?

Terry Nichols wasn't a Christian either. Just because someone claims to be something it doesn't make it so. For example you claim to be intelligent but I haven't seen anything remotely resembling intelligence from you.

"By their fruit you shall know them" and assisting in blowing up a building and killing people isn't a fruit of the Christian Spirit.

Arroyo_Doble
08-20-2010, 04:29 PM
We're not applauding them for not working as much as we are for doing the right thing.

Of course you are.

I just found it comical. As far as the story, there are plenty of construction workers in the United States who will not let mass hysteria and blind, ignorant bigotry keep them from honorable labor.

The next comical question; will conservatives cheer Union thugs vandalizing a work site and threatening workers?

Articulate_Ape
08-20-2010, 04:30 PM
Of course you are.

I just found it comical. As far as the story, there are plenty of construction workers in the United States who will not let mass hysteria and blind, ignorant bigotry keep them from honorable labor.

The next comical question; will conservatives cheer Union thugs vandalizing a work site and threatening workers?

What makes you think that it is only conservatives that oppose the construction of Cordoba House?

FlaGator
08-20-2010, 04:30 PM
Of course you are.

I just found it comical. As far as the story, there are plenty of construction workers in the United States who will not let mass hysteria and blind, ignorant bigotry keep them from honorable labor.

The next comical question; will conservatives cheer Union thugs vandalizing a work site and threatening workers?

So you are a mind reader? Guess what? You don't have a clue as to why their actions please me. You are correct on one thing. It won't keep them from honorable labor, but in this case the labor is not honorable.

Arroyo_Doble
08-20-2010, 04:34 PM
What makes you think that it is only conservatives that oppose the construction of Cordoba House?

I didn't say they were although I can understand your confusion since the words "blind," "ignorant," "bigotry," and "hysteria" were used.

Articulate_Ape
08-20-2010, 04:36 PM
I didn't say they were although I can understand your confusion since the words "blind," "ignorant," "bigotry," and "hysteria" were used.

Do you know what your problem is?

asdf2231
08-20-2010, 04:37 PM
How about Terry Nichols ?

Huh ?

Yeah remember when his followers took to the streets celebrating what he did and then went on to commit horrific acts of violence against innocents cheered on by all the mainstream Christian religious organizations?

FL is right. You have the brains of a single celled dork creature who is such a waste his own self can't even generate enough respect for a pity Mitosis.

Arroyo_Doble
08-20-2010, 04:38 PM
Do you know what your problem is?

I am pretty self aware, yes.

Articulate_Ape
08-20-2010, 04:41 PM
I am pretty self aware, yes.

So you are aware that you are an oxygen thief whose liver should be getting kicked around in the dirt? Man, you are self-aware.

asdf2231
08-20-2010, 04:43 PM
Of course you are.

I just found it comical. As far as the story, there are plenty of construction workers in the United States who will not let mass hysteria and blind, ignorant bigotry keep them from honorable labor.

The next comical question; will conservatives cheer Union thugs vandalizing a work site and threatening workers?

Fuckin' A right this one will.

they wanna sell the softer cuddly side of their 12th century barbarism they can do it ANYWHERE else.

I would cheer them the same way I would cheer Union "Thugs" vandalizing a work site and threatening workers if they were trucked in to build a KKK Museum across the road from Gettysburg National Battlefield.

Sue me.

Arroyo_Doble
08-20-2010, 04:45 PM
Fuckin' A right this one will.

they wanna sell the softer cuddly side of their 12th century barbarism they can do it ANYWHERE else.

I would cheer them the same way I would cheer Union "Thugs" vandalizing a work site and threatening workers if they were trucked in to build a KKK Museum across the road from Gettysburg National Battlefield.

Sue me.

It's like watching the opening scene to 2001: A Space Odyssey.

I love that movie.

lacarnut
08-20-2010, 05:20 PM
Of course you are.

I just found it comical. As far as the story, there are plenty of construction workers in the United States who will not let mass hysteria and blind, ignorant bigotry keep them from honorable labor.

The next comical question; will conservatives cheer Union thugs vandalizing a work site and threatening workers?

You are full of shit as usual cause the mosque will never get built at that location. Plus, how do you know that there are plenty of construction workers that would move to NYC and work there for several years?

The next comical question: will liberals cheer Union thugs vandalizing a work site and threatening workers? Could be both. However, there are more LIBERALS in the city than conservatives. Your little story FAILS.

Hawkgirl
08-20-2010, 05:31 PM
Hey Satanicus...

In a recorded interview with Time magazine[80] McVeigh professed his belief in "a god", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs." Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York. The Guardian reported that McVeigh wrote a letter to them claiming to be an agnostic and that he did not believe in a hell.[81][82] McVeigh once said that he believed the universe was guided by natural law, energized by some universal higher power that showed each person right from wrong if they paid attention to what was going on inside them. He had also said, "Science is my religion."[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

So he was an agnostic/athiest, just like Hitler. Athiests are evil. Someone call Bill Maher and tell him to add it to his Religulous sequel:rolleyes:

nightflight
08-20-2010, 06:15 PM
I wonder why these guys don't care about a church being across the street from the Murrah Federal Building after a right wing christian blew it up ?

These hacks wouldn't know freedom of religion if it cracked their hard hat.

McVeigh wasn't a Christian.

nightflight
08-20-2010, 06:21 PM
Hey Satanicus...

In a recorded interview with Time magazine[80] McVeigh professed his belief in "a god", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs." Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York. The Guardian reported that McVeigh wrote a letter to them claiming to be an agnostic and that he did not believe in a hell.[81][82] McVeigh once said that he believed the universe was guided by natural law, energized by some universal higher power that showed each person right from wrong if they paid attention to what was going on inside them. He had also said, "Science is my religion."[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

So he was an agnostic/athiest, just like Hitler. Athiests are evil. Someone call Bill Maher and tell him to add it to his Religulous sequel:rolleyes:

I'm an atheist. Am I evil?

hampshirebrit
08-20-2010, 06:27 PM
I'm an atheist. Am I evil?

Maybe, but I'm an atheist too, and I am an amazingly wonderful person, or so people keep telling me.

lacarnut
08-20-2010, 06:34 PM
Maybe, but I'm an atheist too, and I am an amazingly wonderful person, or so people keep telling me.

Only liberal atheists are evil.:D

Hawkgirl
08-20-2010, 06:36 PM
I'm an atheist. Am I evil?

Hear that?

it's the point...

it just flew over your head.

JB
08-20-2010, 06:38 PM
The next comical question; will conservatives cheer Union thugs vandalizing a work site and threatening workers?No. You may think the enemy of my enemy is my friend but unions are now and will continue to always be...scum.

Sonnabend
08-20-2010, 06:39 PM
Maybe, but I'm an atheist too, and I am an amazingly wonderful person, or so people keep telling me.

You're a Porsche driving, tea drinking cat loving Brit. Meh







:D:D:D:D

nightflight
08-20-2010, 06:47 PM
Hear that?

it's the point...

it just flew over your head.


Is that what that was?

nightflight
08-20-2010, 06:51 PM
The next comical question; will conservatives cheer Union thugs vandalizing a work site and threatening workers?

I will.

Articulate_Ape
08-20-2010, 07:21 PM
How about Terry Nichols ?

Huh ?


The following timeline lists terrorist attacks against the United States and Americans living either in the U.S. or abroad.

Green = Leftist/anarchist
Blue = Rightwing
Red = Islamic
Black = other

1920
Sept. 16, New York City: TNT bomb planted in unattended horse-drawn wagon exploded on Wall Street opposite House of Morgan, killing 35 people and injuring hundreds more. Bolshevist or anarchist terrorists believed responsible, but crime never solved.

1969
Dec. 6, Bombing of several Chicago police cars parked in a precinct parking lot at 3600 North Halsted Street, Chicago. The WUO claims responsibility in Prairie Fire, stating it is a protest of the fatal police shooting of Illinois Black Panther Party leaders Fred Hampton and Mark Clark on December 4, 1969.

1970
Jan. - Silas and Judith Bissell placed a home-made bomb under the steps of the R.O.T.C. building. The bomb was made from an electric blasting cap, an alarm clock, a battery and a plastic bag filled with gasoline and explosives.

Feb.16, A bomb is detonated at the Golden Gate Park branch of the San Francisco Police Department, killing one officer and injuring a number of other policemen (one seriously). No organization claims credit for either bombing.

Feb. 21, the house of Judge Murtagh, who presides over the Panther 21 trial, is fire-bombed by a WUO cell in New York City. The same night, molotov cocktails were thrown at a police car in Manhattan and two military recruiting stations in Brooklyn.

Mar. 6, WUO members Theodore Gold, Diana Oughton, and Terry Robbins are killed in the Greenwich Village townhouse explosion,when a nail bomb they were constructing detonates. The bomb was intended to be planted at a non-commissioned officer's dance at Fort Dix, New Jersey. (Lib fail)

May 10, The National Guard Association building in Washington, D.C. is bombed. WUO is suspected.

Jun. 9, The New York City Police headquarters is bombed by Jane Alpert and accomplices. Weathermen state this is in response to "police repression." The bomb made with ten sticks of dynamite exploded in the NYC Police Headquarters. The explosion was preceded by a warning about six minutes prior to the detonation and subsequently by a WUO claim of responsibility.

Jul. 25, The United States Army base at The Presidio in San Francisco is bombed by WUO operatives on the 11th anniversary of the Cuban Revolution.

Jul. 28, Bank of America HQ in NYC is bombed around 3:50 AM. WUO claims responsibility

Oct 10, A Queens traffic-court building is bombed. WUO claims this is to express support for the New York prison riots.

Oct. 11, A Courthouse in Long Island City, NY is bombed. An estimated 8 to 10 sticks of dynamite are used. WUO is suspected.

Oct. 12, Around October 12 eight bomb explosions occur, Five in Rochester New York, Two in NYC, and One in Orlando FL. Despite WUO bomb warnings three persons are injured.

Oct. 14 - The Harvard Center for International Affairs is bombed by The Proud Eagle Tribe of Weather (later renamed the Women's Brigade of the Weather Underground). WUO claims this is to protest the war in Vietnam. It was later learned that this bombing was in reaction to Angela Davis' arrest and was the first action undertaken by an all-women's unit of WUO.

Dec. 5, Five Weatherman are captured for trying to bomb First National City Bank of NY and other buildings on the anniversary of the death of Fred Hampton. These individuals subsequently plead guilty.

Dec. 11, Vivian Bogart and Patricia Mclean from the WUO are arrested after throwing an incendiary bomb at the Royal National Bank in NYC around 1:30 AM.

1971
Mar. 1, The United States Capitol is bombed. WUO states this is to protest the invasion of Laos.

Aug. 30, Bombings of the Office of California Prisonsin Sacramento and San Francisco, allegedly in retaliation for the killing of George Jackson. [LAT, 8/29/71][25][26]

Sep. 17, The New York Department of Corrections in Albany, New York is bombed, as per WUO to protest the killing of 29 inmates at Attica State Penitentiary. [NYT, 9/18/71][27]

Oct. 15, The bombing of William Bundy's office in the MIT research center.

1972
May 19, Bombing of The Pentagon by WUO, "in retaliation for the U.S. bombing raid in Hanoi." The date was chosen for it being Ho Chi Minh's birthday.

1973
May 18, The bombing of the 103rd Police Precinct in New York. WUO states this is in response to the killing of 10-year-old black youth Clifford Glover by police.

1974
Mar. 6, Bombing of the Dept. of Health, Education and Welfare offices in San Francisco. WUO takes responsiblity.

May 31, The Office of the California Attorney General is bombed. WUO takes responsibility.

Jun. 17, Gulf Oil's Pittsburgh headquarters is bombed. WUO takes responsibility.

Sep. 11, Bombing of Anaconda Corporation (part of the Rockefeller Corporation). WUO takes responsibility.

1975

Jan. 29, Bombing of the State Department. WUO takes responsibility.

Jan. 23, Offices of Dept. of Defense in Oakland are bombed. WUO takes responsibility.

Jun. 16, Weathermen bomb a Banco de Ponce (a Puerto Rican bank) in New York. WUO takes responsibility.

September – Bombing of the Kennecott Corporation. WUO takes responsibility.

1975
Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings to the group.

1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.


1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.

1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.

1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.

1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.


1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)

Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.


To be continued...

Articulate_Ape
08-20-2010, 07:24 PM
Reality check, continued...

Green = Leftist/anarchist
Blue = Rightwing
Red = Islamic
Black = other


1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.


2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb explodes outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.

2003
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.

2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.

June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.

Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.

2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.

2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.

2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.

2008
May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.

June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.

June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.

July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.

Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.

Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.

Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.

2009
Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.

April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.

Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It's the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.




Any questions? If not, can we dispense with the Oklahoma City bombing canard? If you are gonna lie, you had better have a good memory.

hampshirebrit
08-20-2010, 07:25 PM
You're a Porsche driving, tea drinking cat loving Brit. Meh

Nearly so ... I prefer coffee to tea. Everything else here is correct though. :D

Hawkgirl
08-20-2010, 07:29 PM
Reality check, continued...

Green = Leftist/anarchist
Blue = Rightwing
Red = Islamic
Black = other





Any questions? If not, can we dispense with the Oklahoma City bombing canard? If you are gonna lie, you had better have a good memory.


http://i36.tinypic.com/inz5p3.jpg

warpig
08-20-2010, 07:33 PM
The next comical question; will conservatives cheer Union thugs vandalizing a work site and threatening workers?

Forget the Unions, just get to the guys who sell concrete. I don't know if are aware of who provides concrete in NYC, but I assure you it ain't the Boy Scouts.

Bailey
08-20-2010, 07:40 PM
Forget the Unions, just get to the guys who sell concrete. I don't know if are aware of who provides concrete in NYC, but I assure you it ain't the Boy Scouts.


Good line from Back to school :D

Gingersnap
08-20-2010, 07:42 PM
I have no idea if union workers in NYC will build this thing or not. I posted the article because I thought that it was interesting that some construction workers claimed they would boycott this project in these economic times. Work is kind of scare these days.

I don't know if conservatives are "applauding" this position. I'm just interested, not particularly supportive.

As for Satan Pants' latest volley, words almost fail. The 9/11 terrorists were primarily motivated by a religious fervor. They did various specifically religious things prior to the attack to prepare for imminent martyrdom. This is well documented. These weren't secular guys who happened to be Muslim by birth and who had primarily political/idealogical differences with the World Trade Center management team.

McVeigh was an admitted agnostic who had deep-seated idealogical issues with the U.S. government in general (his own government, by the way) along with specific, very detailed problems with the ATF triggered by the Waco fiasco. He didn't consult with any Christians before his attack, he didn't believe that he was striking a blow for Christianity, he didn't give a fuck that he blew up a bunch of Christan kids.

m00
08-20-2010, 09:51 PM
Unsurprising. I think we all knew something like this would happen. They might have the right to build it, but they don't have the right to get it built.

I'm sure Obama will think of some law that changes this.

Articulate_Ape
08-20-2010, 10:18 PM
I'm sure Obama will think of some law that changes this.

I hope he tries.

lacarnut
08-21-2010, 12:43 AM
I'm sure Obama will think of some law that changes this.

That shit might work in some EU weenie country like France but it will not work here.

PC Guy
08-21-2010, 03:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HMrYEjPMGY

Odysseus
08-21-2010, 11:07 AM
Shows what insight you have.

This won't even be an issue, it will die within a months time.
Funny, but whenever I predict that something will happen, I explain why I think that it will happen that way. Note the sentences that show a cause and effect. Now, it's entirely possible that the mosque site will be moved to a less sensitive spot, but if that happens, it will be because of the pressures exerted by the opponents of the Victory Mosque and the creeping Sharia that it represents, which means that it will have been a defeat for your side. Moving the location will be a face-saving move in defeat.

Care to explain your prediction, or should we just take your word for it that the voices in your head are always right?

Of course you are.

I just found it comical. As far as the story, there are plenty of construction workers in the United States who will not let mass hysteria and blind, ignorant bigotry keep them from honorable labor.

The next comical question; will conservatives cheer Union thugs vandalizing a work site and threatening workers?

First, it's nice to see union workers slacking off for the right reason for a change. Second, we always enjoy it when a schism between unions and their DNC masters opens up, especially when Democrats desperately need unions to get out the vote this November.

And no, we won't be opening cheering union thugs vandalizing a work site and threatening workers. But, we will feel a certain quiet schadenfruede as the left's major players devour each other. New York isn't like the rest of the country. The building trades are heavily unionized and the city is worse than the state that way. If the unions can't get workers for the sites, there won't be any construction.

And, if they do wave the union rules and allow non-union workers on the site, what does that say about a party that will wave union rules to permit an insulting and controversial mosque to be built, but not wave them to protect hundreds of thousands of jobs in the Gulf of Mexico? The priorities of the left become clearer every day that they are in power, and their loathing of America becomes more obvious. See you November 2.

jediab
08-21-2010, 11:47 AM
Now with the unions stepping in, the main people in NYC who object to the mosque's location all vote democrat.

So how is it the right wing who's blocking this?

MountainMan
08-21-2010, 12:48 PM
How about Terry Nichols ?

Huh ?

Neither one of them "blew up" the Federal building in the name of Christ and McVeigh was an atheist you dumb ass.

namvet
08-21-2010, 12:50 PM
The entire issue will be resolved soon.

It's a no brainer. It will be built , just not there.

Wait for it ..... breaking news within a months time.

they'll bring in the Jihadist to do it. who gnna stop em. Osama???

Rockntractor
08-21-2010, 01:19 PM
A perfect spot to build the Mosque.
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/0_61_102608_Landfill.jpg?t=1282411028
Landfill workers would have a place to pray and it could double as a restroom, it also has a beautiful view of New York.

lacarnut
08-21-2010, 01:23 PM
A perfect spot to build the Mosque.
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/0_61_102608_Landfill.jpg?t=1282411028
Landfill workers would have a place to pray and it could double as a restroom, it also has a beautiful view of New York.

Nice:)

Odysseus
08-21-2010, 03:50 PM
Now with the unions stepping in, the main people in NYC who object to the mosque's location all vote democrat.
So how is it the right wing who's blocking this?


Neither one of them "blew up" the Federal building in the name of Christ and McVeigh was an atheist you dumb ass.

You are presenting facts which do not match Satanicus' and Shoe's world view, and so they will ignore them.

Satanicus
08-21-2010, 04:26 PM
You are presenting facts which do not match Satanicus' and Shoe's world view, and so they will ignore them.

Terry Nichols was a christian. I never said he did it in the name of christ.

Whats the problem kids ?

Jfor
08-21-2010, 04:37 PM
Terry Nichols was a christian. I never said he did it in the name of christ.

Whats the problem kids ?

Then why did you bring their names up? Notice that is a question which requires a response from you.

EVERY attack by a muslim has been in the name of Islam.

hampshirebrit
08-21-2010, 04:41 PM
Terry Nichols was a christian. I never said he did it in the name of christ.

Whats the problem kids ?

See above. You raised the issue, so you will have to respond to it. You directly linked Christianity with a terrorist scumbag, actually two of them, Nicholls and McVeigh. Do not think you will be allowed to get away with this without being challenged on it.

Rockntractor
08-21-2010, 04:53 PM
I think Parasatan left, too many questions!
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/2qtlimb.gif?t=1282423916

hampshirebrit
08-21-2010, 04:56 PM
We're larnin' him to answer questions. It's a shitty job, but someone's got to do it.

He'll thank us for it down the line.

I like your parrot, by the way.

fettpett
08-21-2010, 05:48 PM
there has been unubstantiacted reports that Nichols and McVeigh were in cohoots with Islamic terrorist, particularly ones from Iraq

Odysseus
08-21-2010, 09:17 PM
Terry Nichols was a christian. I never said he did it in the name of christ.

Whats the problem kids ?
In that case, you raised an irrelevant point. Nichols and McVey didn't act in the name of Christianity, but the 9/11 hijackers did act in the name of Islam. Putting up a mosque that overlooks the WTC pit sends a message about the triumph of Islam over the infidels. Putting it up within spitting distance of Ground Zero means that the radical Muslims who flock to that mosque will, in fact, be spitting on the memories of the dead, except for the 19 Islamic terrorists, whose memory as martyrs will be venerated.

there has been unubstantiacted reports that Nichols and McVeigh were in cohoots with Islamic terrorist, particularly ones from Iraq
They were substantiated. They were just never acted upon.

Rockntractor
08-21-2010, 09:20 PM
They were substantiated. They were just never acted upon.

We are tolerant to the point of being suicidal.

Odysseus
08-21-2010, 09:31 PM
We are tolerant to the point of being suicidal.

That's about the size of it. What would you call being killed by mushy PC brotherly love? Philocide?

Rockntractor
08-21-2010, 11:43 PM
That's about the size of it. What would you call being killed by mushy PC brotherly love? Philocide?

This is one of the things I don't understand about our liberal trolls that think we are not tolerant enough, we might as well just mail them our heads.

fettpett
08-22-2010, 12:22 AM
They were substantiated. They were just never acted upon.

ah...well the only time i really heard about them were on the radio in the last couple years (Cost to Cost AM i believe) so I wasn't sure how factual they were

Satanicus
08-22-2010, 07:41 AM
In that case, you raised an irrelevant point. Nichols and McVey didn't act in the name of Christianity, but the 9/11 hijackers did act in the name of Islam. .

LIAR.

Here it is STRAIGHT from Osama's mouth...

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

I suggest you post a link to back up your claim. We ALL know the US troops pray to their god before battle , and the Muslims do the same. It doesn't mean they attacked us in the name of religion.

obx
08-22-2010, 09:23 AM
I don't think the Obama Mosque will ever be finished. It may be started, but will plagued with fires, code violations,sick outs etc.
________
Gang bang vids (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/21/gang-bang/videos/1)

warpig
08-22-2010, 09:30 AM
LIAR.

Here it is STRAIGHT from Osama's mouth...

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

I suggest you post a link to back up your claim. We ALL know the US troops pray to their god before battle , and the Muslims do the same. It doesn't mean they attacked us in the name of religion.

Your just not familiar with the Koran and it's teachings are you?


Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves… (48:29)

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29



Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment. (8:12-13)

Satanicus
08-22-2010, 11:33 AM
Your just not familiar with the Koran and it's teachings are you?

We are talking about WHY Al'Qeada attacked the USA.

Al'Qeada has given their reasons.

Rockntractor
08-22-2010, 11:37 AM
We are talking about WHY Al'Qeada attacked the USA.

Al'Qeada has given their reasons.

Why don't you get a job with Al'Qeada? I'm sure you would screw up your mission and blow up in a vacant lot!:rolleyes:

Zathras
08-22-2010, 12:54 PM
LIAR.

Here it is STRAIGHT from Osama's mouth...

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

I suggest you post a link to back up your claim. We ALL know the US troops pray to their god before battle , and the Muslims do the same. It doesn't mean they attacked us in the name of religion.

Hey idiot, if you look at question 2, you will find out that 9-11 WAS done in the name of Islam. Please try to deny that you lying piece of shit.

Odysseus
08-22-2010, 01:59 PM
LIAR.

Here it is STRAIGHT from Osama's mouth...

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

I suggest you post a link to back up your claim. We ALL know the US troops pray to their god before battle , and the Muslims do the same. It doesn't mean they attacked us in the name of religion.

You're calling me a liar? You might want to link to Osama's letter yourself before making the claim that the 9/11 hijackers didn't act in the name of Islam, specifically the first lines of it:


In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39] "Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76] Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans: (Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you? Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

In other words, the entire enterprise is done in the name of Allah, and justified by the Qur'an's injunction to battle unbelievers. Now, maybe you are too stupid to read those sentences when you looked up Osama's letter, but it's far more likely that you are a lying sack of garbage who casually insults others in order to try to play King of the Mountain for the moral high ground. So, which is it? Are you lying scum or a moron?

Zathras
08-22-2010, 02:24 PM
So, which is it? Are you lying scum or a moron?

You actually have to ask that Major? With Stupidicus it's not a choice, it's both.

Odysseus
08-22-2010, 03:17 PM
You actually have to ask that Major? With Stupidicus it's not a choice, it's both.

You know it. I know it. Everybody here knows it, but I wanted to make sure that Sataniscum knows it.

Sonnabend
08-22-2010, 04:00 PM
Begging the Major's pardon,. but you're arguing with a brick wall.

Sir. :D

JB
08-22-2010, 04:28 PM
Here it is STRAIGHT from Osama's mouth...

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple: Typical Shitbirdicus. Snips one line from a multi-paragraph letter and thinks he's won the argument.

Since you have to answer questions now, here's a few questions:

Did you read the entire letter at YOUR link? If not, go read it.

Let's stipulate that by the end of the day all the jews in the world have disappeared, Israel no longer exists, the land is returned to "Palestine" and the US closes all its military bases around the world.

Based on Osama's letter and the above stipulations, do you realize that Osama still wants to fight you, oppose you and kill you? He also wants to kill me and 99.5% of the entire DU community.

Now, answer the question and tell me why Osama still wants you dead. If you can't comprehend it from his letter come back in here and post "No father, I do not know why Osama still wants me dead. Please explain it to me". Do that and I will post it for you.

Odysseus
08-22-2010, 05:35 PM
Now, answer the question and tell me why Osama still wants you dead.

You mean why does Osama want him dead more than the people who actually know him do? Satipus has a hard time understanding why people who've read his comments or dealt with him in person feel that way, so why should he have a clue about Osama? :D

warpig
08-22-2010, 05:46 PM
Not only does the Koran egg people on to commit these acts, the worst part is that these individuals have it within themsleves to follow those teachings and follow through with those teachings.

Wei Wu Wei
08-22-2010, 05:57 PM
Terry Nichols wasn't a Christian either. Just because someone claims to be something it doesn't make it so.

So isn't it fair to say that terrorists are not real Muslims?

Rockntractor
08-22-2010, 06:02 PM
So isn't it fair to say that terrorists are not real Muslims?

Their fellow Muslims certainly considered them to be as they partied in the streets yelling Allahu Akbar!

Zathras
08-22-2010, 06:10 PM
So isn't it fair to say that terrorists are not real Muslims?

Yeah it is....if you're a brain dead moron that is.

hampshirebrit
08-22-2010, 06:34 PM
LIAR.

Here it is STRAIGHT from Osama's mouth...

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

I suggest you post a link to back up your claim. We ALL know the US troops pray to their god before battle , and the Muslims do the same. It doesn't mean they attacked us in the name of religion.

You cretin. You don't have a fucking clue, do you.


You attacked us in Palestine:

"Us"? Osama is from Yemen, via Saudi Arabia. He's never been to Palestine. So who is this "us" he's talking about?

Take a fucking bow, you dickhead.

Odysseus
08-22-2010, 07:25 PM
So isn't it fair to say that terrorists are not real Muslims?

Show me where the Bible demands that Christians kill unbelievers, behead them, make war on them or otherwise spread Christianity by the sword. I can quote you dozens of verses in the Qur'an that call on Muslims to do those things. 9/11 wasn't an aberration for Islam, it was just another slaughter of infidels, no different from what goes on every day in places where non-Muslims find themselves under the control of Muslims.

m00
08-22-2010, 07:43 PM
He wants me dead because of US foreign policy , Osama said so himself.

So you take what Osama says at face value, but not Bush? Selective trust at work.

hampshirebrit
08-22-2010, 07:43 PM
He wants me dead because of US foreign policy , Osama said so himself.

And we should believe a word Osama says because? :confused::confused:

You gotta bad case of Stockholm Syndrome going there, either that or your head is a long way up your ass.

Can we get to the point, please. You are only permitted to respond directly to the question at hand which is currently, Why did you equate McVeigh/Nicholls to an act of religious terrorism like 9/11.

Odysseus
08-22-2010, 09:01 PM
He wants me dead because of US foreign policy , Osama said so himself.

He wants you dead because you're a non-believer, if a delusional one at that. You cherry-picked two lines out of an entire letter in which Osama repeatedly states that he wants Americans dead because we stand in the way of a universal Islamic caliphate. What were his terms to America? The second part of his letter is very specific:


(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

And, just to remind you, who is he fighting for?


If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

Still don't get it?


This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

It's not our policies, it's us. Bin Laden is fighting to advance Islam over America, Sharia over our Constitution and his Medievel version of morality over our horrible indulgence of lending money for interest, gambling, having sex out of wedlock, our art, music, science, culture... pretty much everything that we are, and certainly everything that you are.

On the plus side, it's nothing personal, there are lots of non-believers around who Osama wants dead, and almost all of them are a higher priority. But, I'm sure that if Osama got to know you as we have, he'd bump you up the list.

marinejcksn
08-22-2010, 09:21 PM
Sir, would agree though that we could save a lotta dough if we pulled our troops out of all the foreign bases and brought them back to the USA? If anything, I think that'd placate a lot of pissed off arabs too...maybe not to the point they'd stop Terrorism because their wacked out interperetation of the Koran supports it....but they wouldn't have the "US troops are on Muslim Holy Lands" card to play anymore.

marinejcksn
08-22-2010, 09:23 PM
I know for a fact the extremist Muslims are plotting an internal overthrow. They don't need to attack us physically, they can destroy us using our tolerance and laws. BECAUSE THEY SAID THAT'S WHAT THEY PLAN TO DO. Look at England.

PoliCon
08-22-2010, 10:17 PM
I seriously wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt but I realize that I was wrong. He truly is stupid. I don't believe that in the last 4 1/2 years here at CU I have called anyone stupid or an idiot. Not wilbur, not Night Owl, not CW, not anyone, but I think I have actually stumbled on someone who is so much of an moron that I don't think I'm being disrespectful in pointing out that he doesn't just say stupid things, he is stupid.

You're finally willing to call a viper a viper. ;) Good on you. :D

PoliCon
08-22-2010, 10:22 PM
Forget the Unions, just get to the guys who sell concrete. I don't know if are aware of who provides concrete in NYC, but I assure you it ain't the Boy Scouts.

Aren't the mob involved with concrete in NYC?

PoliCon
08-22-2010, 10:26 PM
They were substantiated. They were just never acted upon. See - now I'm gonna have to dig out that book and finish it. :mad:

Thanks a lot. :mad:

:p

PoliCon
08-22-2010, 10:28 PM
Why don't you get a job with Al'Qeada? I'm sure you would screw up your mission and blow up in a vacant lot!:rolleyes:

OMG! That's who he reminds me of!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go

Only Achmed is clearly smarter.

PoliCon
08-22-2010, 10:30 PM
So isn't it fair to say that terrorists are not real Muslims?

Show how what they did is not inline with the teachings of islam first and then we can dispel you of your mistaken idiocy.

warpig
08-22-2010, 11:09 PM
Aren't the mob involved with concrete in NYC?

and you don't have to look far to find that out.:cool:

Odysseus
08-22-2010, 11:29 PM
Sir, would agree though that we could save a lotta dough if we pulled our troops out of all the foreign bases and brought them back to the USA? If anything, I think that'd placate a lot of pissed off arabs too...maybe not to the point they'd stop Terrorism because their wacked out interperetation of the Koran supports it....but they wouldn't have the "US troops are on Muslim Holy Lands" card to play anymore.
Withdrawing would just be seen as weakness. If we stay, we're infidels occupying holy land. If we leave, we're infidels in retreat, and they will step up the pressure on us. We're dealing with people whose worldview hasn't changed since the Seventh Century. The only way to win is to inflict so much pain on them that they never want to kick the beehive again. We need to go back to the Romans, Greeks and Mongols to see what worked and what didn't with the Middle East.

Aren't the mob involved with concrete in NYC?
I'd answer, but I don't want to end up wearing concrete. ;)

Wei Wu Wei
08-23-2010, 01:09 PM
Show how what they did is not inline with the teachings of islam first and then we can dispel you of your mistaken idiocy.

So you, as well as others here, believe that Islam teaches that one should kill non-believers, wage a war of religious conquest, and spread violence or hatred?


Congratulations, you have the exact same views as a terrorist killing in the name of a religion.

Wei Wu Wei
08-23-2010, 01:12 PM
Show me where the Bible demands that Christians kill unbelievers, behead them, make war on them or otherwise spread Christianity by the sword. I can quote you dozens of verses in the Qur'an that call on Muslims to do those things. 9/11 wasn't an aberration for Islam, it was just another slaughter of infidels, no different from what goes on every day in places where non-Muslims find themselves under the control of Muslims.

okay

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)


“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)


When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deuteronomy 20:10-17)


“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)




"Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Matthew 10:34-35)

Rockntractor
08-23-2010, 01:12 PM
So you, as well as others here, believe that Islam teaches that one should kill non-believers, wage a war of religious conquest, and spread violence or hatred?


Congratulations, you have the exact same views as a terrorist killing in the name of a religion.

We don't say that the Quran does.

FlaGator
08-23-2010, 01:14 PM
So you, as well as others here, believe that Islam teaches that one should kill non-believers, wage a war of religious conquest, and spread violence or hatred?


Congratulations, you have the exact same views as a terrorist killing in the name of a religion.

Very poor logic here. There is a difference in recognizing the fact that the Koran advocates the killing of non-believers and living that belief out.

Wei Wu Wei
08-23-2010, 01:17 PM
Very poor logic here. There is a difference in recognizing the fact that the Koran advocates the killing of non-believers and living that belief out.

Both are idiodic, it just depends on whether you are raised in an environment full of idiots in terrible economic and political situations who subscribe to that belief. In that case you are far more likely to accept such idiocy as a course of life, rather than as a means of judging another religion.

There were literally thousands of papers and proclamations during the spanish inquisition and the crusades that demonstrated how such horrors were done in the name of the Christian God.

This is a historical phenomenon, not something unique to Islam.

FlaGator
08-23-2010, 01:20 PM
Both are idiodic, it just depends on whether you are raised in an environment full of idiots in terrible economic and political situations who subscribe to that belief. In that case you are far more likely to accept such idiocy as a course of life, rather than as a means of judging another religion.

There were literally thousands of papers and proclamations during the spanish inquisition and the crusades that demonstrated how such horrors were done in the name of the Christian God.

This is a historical phenomenon, not something unique to Islam.

But none of the ideas in those "papers" that avocated the inquisition or the crusades could be upheld by New Testament Scripture. This is not the case for the interpretations of the Koran that allow for violence and killing.

Wei Wu Wei
08-23-2010, 01:23 PM
But none of the ideas in those "papers" that avocated the inquisition or the crusades could be upheld by New Testament Scripture. This is not the case for the interpretations of the Koran that allow for violence and killing.

They can, they were, and they were accepted. It wasn't until centuries later, another effect of history, that later writers went back and "corrected" the earlier writers about their interpretation of the Bible. However, as I demonstrated in just a few minutes, just a few posts above, there is plenty of text within the Bible that, if taken out of it's historical and cultural context, can clearly be seen to advocating war and violence.

It's a cherry-picking game and that much should be obvious to anyone who isn't simply looking for a boogyman.

Rockntractor
08-23-2010, 01:26 PM
They can, they were, and they were accepted. It wasn't until centuries later, another effect of history, that later writers went back and "corrected" the earlier writers about their interpretation of the Bible. However, as I demonstrated in just a few minutes, just a few posts above, there is plenty of text within the Bible that, if taken out of it's historical and cultural context, can clearly be seen to advocating war and violence.

It's a cherry-picking game and that much should be obvious to anyone who isn't simply looking for a boogyman.

Do you ever troll Islamic boards asking them these same questions?

Wei Wu Wei
08-23-2010, 01:34 PM
I don't know any Islamic boards but I grill liberal-leaning boards FAR more than I do here.

Rockntractor
08-23-2010, 01:37 PM
I don't know any Islamic boards but I grill liberal-leaning boards FAR more than I do here.

I'll find you one and then you can report back on your success.

Wei Wu Wei
08-23-2010, 01:42 PM
I know muslims in real life fool. They are kind, funny, intelligent, peaceful, and far better people than I see showing up at rallys when I'm able to attend them.

They don't have any beef with Christians, Christianity, nor are they trying to spread the idea that some other religion is evil.

You people are seriously fighting against a made-up boogyman.

Rockntractor
08-23-2010, 01:47 PM
I know muslims in real life fool. They are kind, funny, intelligent, peaceful, and far better people than I see showing up at rallys when I'm able to attend them.

They don't have any beef with Christians, Christianity, nor are they trying to spread the idea that some other religion is evil.

You people are seriously fighting against a made-up boogyman.

Here is an Islamic forum, post there and let us know how they respond since you think we are different sides of the same coin.
http://www.islamicboard.com/
This board is both Muslim and non-Muslim so I'm sure you will be welcomed with open arms.

FlaGator
08-23-2010, 01:47 PM
They can, they were, and they were accepted. It wasn't until centuries later, another effect of history, that later writers went back and "corrected" the earlier writers about their interpretation of the Bible. However, as I demonstrated in just a few minutes, just a few posts above, there is plenty of text within the Bible that, if taken out of it's historical and cultural context, can clearly be seen to advocating war and violence.

It's a cherry-picking game and that much should be obvious to anyone who isn't simply looking for a boogyman.

You are wrong. There is nothing in New Testament Scripture that supported the Inquisition or the Crusades... period. However, since the Bible was only available to a select few no one could read it and determine that the proofs that were being offered where not actually Biblical. Men more interested in power than in God's word created fictitious proofs that they knew were fictitious at the time they were rendered. All later historians did was to go back and realize that the "papers" were full of false information that couldn't even be called a misinterpretation.

However, the Koran is not being "misinterpreted" nor are the beliefs it presents being falsified.

If you want to take up the cause, show me the misinterpreted New Testament Scripture that the 10th century church leaders misinterpreted and used to advocating the Crusades. See if you can do the same for the Inquisitions. Based on your above statement this should be easy for you to do.

FlaGator
08-23-2010, 01:52 PM
I know muslims in real life fool. They are kind, funny, intelligent, peaceful, and far better people than I see showing up at rallys when I'm able to attend them.

They don't have any beef with Christians, Christianity, nor are they trying to spread the idea that some other religion is evil.

You people are seriously fighting against a made-up boogyman.

There are those in real life who are just the opposite of what you just described. Look at the Muslim father who shot and killed his two daughters on New Year's Day a few years back. He had a hatred of all things not Muslim and killed them because he feared they were becoming Westernized. Why is there laws in Muslim countries that make it a capital crime to convert away from the Muslim religion?

Wei Wu Wei
08-23-2010, 02:03 PM
You are wrong. There is nothing in New Testament Scripture that supported the Inquisition or the Crusades... period. However, since the Bible was only available to a select few no one could read it and determine that the proofs that were being offered where not actually Biblical. Men more interested in power than in God's word created fictitious proofs that they knew were fictitious at the time they were rendered. All later historians did was to go back and realize that the "papers" were full of false information that couldn't even be called a misinterpretation.

However, the Koran is not being "misinterpreted" nor are the beliefs it presents being falsified.

If you want to take up the cause, show me the misinterpreted New Testament Scripture that the 10th century church leaders misinterpreted and used to advocating the Crusades. See if you can do the same for the Inquisitions. Based on your above statement this should be easy for you to do.

It is true that less people were reading at the time, and as a result of this there was less specific scripture used, but what remains true is that in both of these cases the scripture was manipulated somewhat to further political/social/economic goals. It is ALWAYS this.

However, we must keep in mind the structure of the religion at the time, which was unified with the structure of the Church at the time. This is not comparable to religions today, counsels and religious authorities made more decisions at the time. However, within these counsels and among these educated elites, scripture was still used.

Now, there had existed an Augustinian concept of a "Just War" for some time before the crusades. This involved fighting wars for "right reasons", which usually included protecting God's people or the land he has allocated for them.

There was a big shift in the 10th century where Christianity was viewed as a pacifist religion to one of righteous warfare.

Building off of the Augustinian "Just War", theologians at the time came up with the idea of "Holy Wars", and during this time they even found Christian justification at religious counsels that considered exterminating the "vile race" of Muslims to be a "holy act".


I won't get into how ideology functions but basically if you have your political agenda in mind, you can use scriptures taken out of context to justify it VERY easily.

Wei Wu Wei
08-23-2010, 02:05 PM
There are those in real life who are just the opposite of what you just described. Look at the Muslim father who shot and killed his two daughters on New Year's Day a few years back. He had a hatred of all things not Muslim and killed them because he feared they were becoming Westernized. Why is there laws in Muslim countries that make it a capital crime to convert away from the Muslim religion?

Just off the top of my head I can think of 2 examples of Christian parents murdering their own children because of their religious faith, citing that God specifically told them to or that they had to do it to be better aligned with God.

What does that mean for Christianity?

The answer: not much, unless you're really trying to make it mean something.

Odysseus
08-23-2010, 02:09 PM
So you, as well as others here, believe that Islam teaches that one should kill non-believers, wage a war of religious conquest, and spread violence or hatred?
Congratulations, you have the exact same views as a terrorist killing in the name of a religion.
That is what is called a "non-sequitur." The Qur'an, the Hadiths and Sharia all justify killing or enslaving non-believers. In what way does this make my views the same as those of a terrorist?

I know muslims in real life fool. They are kind, funny, intelligent, peaceful, and far better people than I see showing up at rallys when I'm able to attend them.

They don't have any beef with Christians, Christianity, nor are they trying to spread the idea that some other religion is evil.

You people are seriously fighting against a made-up boogyman.

Actually, you're the one who is advancing a wishful-thinking version of Islam. Most of the military folks here have multiple deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, and I've spent a great deal of time in Kuwait, as well. Our experience with Muslims includes daily interaction with them in countries where they are in the majority, as well as interactions with them here in the US. In fact, I have even served with Muslim Soldiers in the US Army. No one is denying that individual Muslims are kind, funny, intelligent or peaceful. But, and this is critical, Islam is unique among all religions, in that it forbids the faithful from making permanent peace with non-believers, encourages taqiyya, or lying to non-believers in order to advance Islam, commands that the faithful treat non-believers as dhimmis, enslave or convert us and otherwise act in ways which are not conducive to peace. By refusing to acknowledge this, you are perpetuating the power of the most extreme elements of Islam.

But, there are Muslims who seek to reform Islam and bring it into the 21st century. They reject the 7th century legal code that treats women as chattel and non-believers as permanent enemies. They reject the anti-science of the al Ghazali school of thought and seek to revive the earlier philosophical outlook of those Muslims who embraced Aristotle and the Greeks. The problem is that these are not the Muslims that you are supporting. The GZ mosque imam is a devotee of the Muslim Brotherhood, a fifth columnist who seeks to undermine all man-made law in favor of Sharia. He and his allies have explicitly stated that their goal is the destruction of the west and the imposition of a global caliphate under their version of Islam, and the first step towards this is to impose their will on those Muslims who have come to America to escape them. They do this by flooding the US with Saudi money and Salafist imams and crowding out the moderates, who they then force to adopt the trappings of the extremists. You can see this throughout Europe, where moderates are forced to conform to the most extreme interpretations of the Qur'an and Sharia, and the leftists support the radicals by denouncing any attempts to restrict their influence or power as Islamophobic or racist.

In short, it is you and your ilk, in your ignorance, who are betraying those Muslims who are most like you in outlook, in favor of those who you claim to disdain.


Just off the top of my head I can think of 2 examples of Christian parents murdering their own children because of their religious faith, citing that God specifically told them to or that they had to do it to be better aligned with God.

What does that mean for Christianity?

The answer: not much, unless you're really trying to make it mean something.

Name them.

FlaGator
08-23-2010, 02:17 PM
Just off the top of my head I can think of 2 examples of Christian parents murdering their own children because of their religious faith, citing that God specifically told them to or that they had to do it to be better aligned with God.

What does that mean for Christianity?

The answer: not much, unless you're really trying to make it mean something.

At least one of those women were suffering from post-parten psychosis and her religion had much less to do with it than her mental illness.

Wei Wu Wei
08-23-2010, 02:23 PM
That is what is called a "non-sequitur." The Qur'an, the Hadiths and Sharia all justify killing or enslaving non-believers. In what way does this make my views the same as those of a terrorist?

The Bible has guidelines for slavery, talks about death penalty for adultury, has passages telling people to conquer lands and enslave them if they are receptive or kill them if they are not. There are dozens of passages like this in the Bible that must be read in a proper historical context.

Now, to take that and say that the Bible advocates all these things, and that the Christian religion advocates these things, and that Christians thus should do these things would be something for a radical terrorist to say.

This sort of thinking (if this word appears in the text, you must KILL) is fundamentalist, dangerous, and appeals to people who are in horrid socio-economic conditions, living in a state of dispair, and is used for army-building, not for spiritual growth.

The people trying so hard to assert that Islam is these things are doing the work of the radical fundamentalists who are also trying to assert that same idea.





Actually, you're the one who is advancing a wishful-thinking version of Islam. Most of the military folks here have multiple deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, and I've spent a great deal of time in Kuwait, as well. Our experience with Muslims includes daily interaction with them in countries where they are in the majority, as well as interactions with them here in the US. In fact, I have even served with Muslim Soldiers in the US Army. No one is denying that individual Muslims are kind, funny, intelligent or peaceful. But, and this is critical, Islam is unique among all religions, in that it forbids the faithful from making permanent peace with non-believers, encourages taqiyya, or lying to non-believers in order to advance Islam, commands that the faithful treat non-believers as dhimmis, enslave or convert us and otherwise act in ways which are not conducive to peace. By refusing to acknowledge this, you are perpetuating the power of the most extreme elements of Islam.

Islam is not perfect, nor is any system. It has it's problems and it has it's problem members. It's one thing to recognize aspects of a belief system that should be challenged. It's a totally different thing to denounce an entire religion based on a caricature of it.


But, there are Muslims who seek to reform Islam and bring it into the 21st century. They reject the 7th century legal code that treats women as chattel and non-believers as permanent enemies. They reject the anti-science of the al Ghazali school of thought and seek to revive the earlier philosophical outlook of those Muslims who embraced Aristotle and the Greeks. The problem is that these are not the Muslims that you are supporting. The GZ mosque imam is a devotee of the Muslim Brotherhood, a fifth columnist who seeks to undermine all man-made law in favor of Sharia. He and his allies have explicitly stated that their goal is the destruction of the west and the imposition of a global caliphate under their version of Islam, and the first step towards this is to impose their will on those Muslims who have come to America to escape them. They do this by flooding the US with Saudi money and Salafist imams and crowding out the moderates, who they then force to adopt the trappings of the extremists. You can see this throughout Europe, where moderates are forced to conform to the most extreme interpretations of the Qur'an and Sharia, and the leftists support the radicals by denouncing any attempts to restrict their influence or power as Islamophobic or racist.

There are also a wide range of people who call themselves Christians. You have the "God Hates Fags" radical wing of the Westboro Baptist Church, you have very moderate "lukewarm" christians who go to church and do traditional holidays but not much else. You have wings of Christianity that are very closely tied with American Nationalism and you have wings of Christianity that are pro-socialist. You even have 'progressive' churches taking up the causes of ecology, tolerance, homosexuality, and more.

I believe all these groups have the right to non-violently express themselves and exist.

I also believe that Islamic groups who are more fundamentalist and rather regressive have that same right, as do the more modern, 21st century Muslims.




In short, it is you and your ilk, in your ignorance, who are betraying those Muslims who are most like you in outlook, in favor of those who you claim to disdain.

I may not agree with intolerant backwards thinking muslims but I will not try to deny them their right to build a place of worship, to express their views, and to pray.






Name them.

andrea yates and deanna laney

Wei Wu Wei
08-23-2010, 02:25 PM
At least one of those women were suffering from post-parten psychosis and her religion had much less to do with it than her mental illness.

As determined by the courts. The same Texas judicial system has ruled that a nearly identical case was not an issue of insanity because it was "Satan" that ordered the person, instead of "God". :rolleyes:


Again, when you open the space for exceptions like this, isn't it obvious to ask that maybe the father who murdered his daughter was also mentally ill because that's what mentally ill people sometimes do?

Wei Wu Wei
08-23-2010, 02:25 PM
It is true that less people were reading at the time, and as a result of this there was less specific scripture used, but what remains true is that in both of these cases the scripture was manipulated somewhat to further political/social/economic goals. It is ALWAYS this.

However, we must keep in mind the structure of the religion at the time, which was unified with the structure of the Church at the time. This is not comparable to religions today, counsels and religious authorities made more decisions at the time. However, within these counsels and among these educated elites, scripture was still used.

Now, there had existed an Augustinian concept of a "Just War" for some time before the crusades. This involved fighting wars for "right reasons", which usually included protecting God's people or the land he has allocated for them.

There was a big shift in the 10th century where Christianity was viewed as a pacifist religion to one of righteous warfare.

Building off of the Augustinian "Just War", theologians at the time came up with the idea of "Holy Wars", and during this time they even found Christian justification at religious counsels that considered exterminating the "vile race" of Muslims to be a "holy act".


I won't get into how ideology functions but basically if you have your political agenda in mind, you can use scriptures taken out of context to justify it VERY easily.

Here's an interesting book on the history of the crusades here

http://www.amazon.com/Holy-War-Crusades-Impact-Todays/dp/0385721404

FlaGator
08-23-2010, 02:35 PM
It is true that less people were reading at the time, and as a result of this there was less specific scripture used, but what remains true is that in both of these cases the scripture was manipulated somewhat to further political/social/economic goals. It is ALWAYS this.

However, we must keep in mind the structure of the religion at the time, which was unified with the structure of the Church at the time. This is not comparable to religions today, counsels and religious authorities made more decisions at the time. However, within these counsels and among these educated elites, scripture was still used.

Now, there had existed an Augustinian concept of a "Just War" for some time before the crusades. This involved fighting wars for "right reasons", which usually included protecting God's people or the land he has allocated for them.

There was a big shift in the 10th century where Christianity was viewed as a pacifist religion to one of righteous warfare.

Building off of the Augustinian "Just War", theologians at the time came up with the idea of "Holy Wars", and during this time they even found Christian justification at religious counsels that considered exterminating the "vile race" of Muslims to be a "holy act".


I won't get into how ideology functions but basically if you have your political agenda in mind, you can use scriptures taken out of context to justify it VERY easily.

I am going to ask you again to produce the New Testament Scriptures that were misinterpreted to validate the Crusades and the Inquisition? Since you stated that later historians came along and "reinterpreted" them to something closer to the truth then you must know what Scriptures that they were referring to.

The structure of religion between end of the Apostolic age and now has always be askew with problems of substituting tradition with Scripture. Jesus himself pointed this out to the Pharisees. However if we are to compare the basic teachings of the New Testament with the teaching of the Koran, minus all the extraneous commentary on for both beliefs, Christian doctrine does not advoate violence and force for the spreading of it's belief nor for forcing people to adhere to those beliefs. Islam on the other hand, using Muhammad as an example, had no issues with conversion by conquest nor was he opposed to killing those who converted and then wished to convert back.

Christian Scripture can be used to prove or disprove a lot of things when taken out of context. However, one doesn't have to take Islam out of context to understand that it teaches a message that finds violence acceptable. Look at the life that Christ led as an example of His message and Christian beliefs and compare that with the example of Mohammad.

When arguing for the position that Islam is a violent religion and not the "religion of peace" as many would have you believe, it does not take a great deal of effort to find Muslim scripture to back this position; scripture that is not taken out of context. Although both religions have a history of violent behavior in their pasts it can be demonstrated that Christian Scripture and beliefs argue against violence and Islam finds it acceptable.

FlaGator
08-23-2010, 02:39 PM
As determined by the courts. The same Texas judicial system has ruled that a nearly identical case was not an issue of insanity because it was "Satan" that ordered the person, instead of "God". :rolleyes:


Again, when you open the space for exceptions like this, isn't it obvious to ask that maybe the father who murdered his daughter was also mentally ill because that's what mentally ill people sometimes do?

I would suspect that the father is mentally ill, however, his beliefs advocate those types of killings regardless of the state of his mental hygiene and we are talking beliefs here. God would not tell someone to kill their own kids. He did so in the case of Abraham but He did not allow it to be done and it was used more by God to show Abraham the depth of his devotion. In the Old Testament God states again and again is opposition to child sacrifice.

PoliCon
08-23-2010, 03:16 PM
I know muslims in real life fool. They are kind, funny, intelligent, peaceful, and far better people than I see showing up at rallys when I'm able to attend them.

They don't have any beef with Christians, Christianity, nor are they trying to spread the idea that some other religion is evil.

You people are seriously fighting against a made-up boogyman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w

PoliCon
08-23-2010, 03:18 PM
You are wrong. There is nothing in New Testament Scripture that supported the Inquisition or the Crusades... period. However, since the Bible was only available to a select few no one could read it and determine that the proofs that were being offered where not actually Biblical. Men more interested in power than in God's word created fictitious proofs that they knew were fictitious at the time they were rendered. All later historians did was to go back and realize that the "papers" were full of false information that couldn't even be called a misinterpretation.

However, the Koran is not being "misinterpreted" nor are the beliefs it presents being falsified.

If you want to take up the cause, show me the misinterpreted New Testament Scripture that the 10th century church leaders misinterpreted and used to advocating the Crusades. See if you can do the same for the Inquisitions. Based on your above statement this should be easy for you to do.

He doesn't even know what either event was about. All he knows is the revisionist apologist takes on these events. He has no historical or cultural perspective and as an unbeliever he cannot speak - but of course like most unbelievers will of course do so anyhow - as to what is believed by Christians.

JB
08-23-2010, 03:25 PM
I'm really in the twilight zone here. Liberals really believe that 9/11 was the fault of the US.

I've read that estimates are 10% of the worlds muzzies are radical. Let's say it could be as low as 1%. That's 10 million to a possible 100 million nutjobs running around that want you dead. Not just you. All of us. Yet here you sit with your head in the sand.

And the "women that said God told them to kill their babies" analogy always cracks me up. Let's see...A couple of nutbag women, some nutbag dudes that blow up abortion clinics and Westboro, which claims Christianity. There's 10 nutbag Christians compared to 100 million nutbag muzzies. Stay in denial weewee.

JB
08-23-2010, 06:05 PM
You people are seriously fighting against a made-up boogyman.Riiiiight.

Muzzie hostess won't wear Disney's head scarf alternative (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100823/ap_on_en_ot/us_disneyland_muslim_worker)

Disney makes several attempts to appease muzzie broad. Offers to let muzzie broad work away from customers. Muzzie broad just has to wear her voodoo headscarf instead of assimilating to Disney culture so she files a discrimination complaint against them after they tried many times to appease her. Just fire her ass.

Last week it was the high school football team that moved practice to night time so muzzies could eat or drink during practice because it was Ramalamadingdong time.

Let's just keep capitulating and appeasing and falling back. What could go wrong?

Odysseus
08-23-2010, 06:12 PM
The Bible has guidelines for slavery, talks about death penalty for adultury, has passages telling people to conquer lands and enslave them if they are receptive or kill them if they are not. There are dozens of passages like this in the Bible that must be read in a proper historical context.

Now, to take that and say that the Bible advocates all these things, and that the Christian religion advocates these things, and that Christians thus should do these things would be something for a radical terrorist to say.

This sort of thinking (if this word appears in the text, you must KILL) is fundamentalist, dangerous, and appeals to people who are in horrid socio-economic conditions, living in a state of dispair, and is used for army-building, not for spiritual growth.

The people trying so hard to assert that Islam is these things are doing the work of the radical fundamentalists who are also trying to assert that same idea.

The difference is, both Christianity and Judaism have developed codes of law that sharply break with those Biblical prescriptions. Sharia Law not only still contains them, but the modern adherents continue to impose those penalties. Christians have stoned adulterers since Biblical times, while Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan and other Islamic states do it today. When was the last time a Christian state executed homosexuals? And, as I said before, there is no Biblical proscription to perpetually war on non-believers, while the Qur'an, the Hadiths and Sharia all demand it.


Islam is not perfect, nor is any system. It has it's problems and it has it's problem members. It's one thing to recognize aspects of a belief system that should be challenged. It's a totally different thing to denounce an entire religion based on a caricature of it.

"Problem members"???? ROFLOL!!! Is that how you would describe the Janjaweed Militias that have killed over a million people in Darfur and Sudan? The rioters who killed hundreds over a few cartoons? The Taliban, which imposed death and torture on the population of Afghanistan? The entire population of Saudi Arabia? You make it sound like all they need is a little ritalin and they'll be just fine.


There are also a wide range of people who call themselves Christians. You have the "God Hates Fags" radical wing of the Westboro Baptist Church, you have very moderate "lukewarm" christians who go to church and do traditional holidays but not much else. You have wings of Christianity that are very closely tied with American Nationalism and you have wings of Christianity that are pro-socialist. You even have 'progressive' churches taking up the causes of ecology, tolerance, homosexuality, and more.
And the body count from these groups in the last century is...?

I believe all these groups have the right to non-violently express themselves and exist.
I also believe that Islamic groups who are more fundamentalist and rather regressive have that same right, as do the more modern, 21st century Muslims.
So, you believe that it is the right of Muslim immigrants to work to impose Sharia Law on US citizens? To undermine the US Constitution, despite their citizenship oath? To bear allegiance to a foreign caliphate over the United States? What am I saying? Of course you do.

I may not agree with intolerant backwards thinking muslims but I will not try to deny them their right to build a place of worship, to express their views, and to pray.
But what if they do more than pray? What if they use the site to build a Muslim state-within-a-state, as they have done in most European cities? What if they use the site to intimidate and harass Muslims who don't share their view of Islam and cow them into silence and compliance? What if they use the site to attack our financial and civil institutions? Is that acceptable?

andrea yates and deanna laney
Yates was a psychotic who had been treated with Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug. Prior to the drownings of her children, she degenerated into a "near catatonic" state and was hospitalized . She was again released, and her husband was told that she needed round the clock supervision. Instead, he went to work, leaving her alone to watch their five children against theinstructions of her physician, Dr. Mohammed Saeed. Laney also exhibited psychotic symptoms prior to the attacks on her children. In other words, there are medical authorities who can show clinical proof of the insanity of these two women. Where is the clinical proof of the insanity of the 9/11 hijackers? MAJ Nidal Hasan? The Christmas Day underwear bomber? Any of the Muslims who have committed the 1,500 documented terrorist acts documented since 9/11?

JB
08-23-2010, 06:23 PM
The difference is, both Christianity and Judaism have developed codes of law that sharply break with those Biblical prescriptions. Sharia Law not only still contains them, but the modern adherents continue to impose those penalties. Christians have stoned adulterers since Biblical times, while Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan and other Islamic states do it today. When was the last time a Christian state executed homosexuals? And, as I said before, there is no Biblical proscription to perpetually war on non-believers, while the Qur'an, the Hadiths and Sharia all demand it.

"Problem members"???? ROFLOL!!! Is that how you would describe the Janjaweed Militias that have killed over a million people in Darfur and Sudan? The rioters who killed hundreds over a few cartoons? The Taliban, which imposed death and torture on the population of Afghanistan? The entire population of Saudi Arabia? You make it sound like all they need is a little ritalin and they'll be just fine.

And the body count from these groups in the last century is...?

So, you believe that it is the right of Muslim immigrants to work to impose Sharia Law on US citizens? To undermine the US Constitution, despite their citizenship oath? To bear allegiance to a foreign caliphate over the United States? What am I saying? Of course you do.

But what if they do more than pray? What if they use the site to build a Muslim state-within-a-state, as they have done in most European cities? What if they use the site to intimidate and harass Muslims who don't share their view of Islam and cow them into silence and compliance? What if they use the site to attack our financial and civil institutions? Is that acceptable?

Yates was a psychotic who had been treated with Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug. Prior to the drownings of her children, she degenerated into a "near catatonic" state and was hospitalized . She was again released, and her husband was told that she needed round the clock supervision. Instead, he went to work, leaving her alone to watch their five children against theinstructions of her physician, Dr. Mohammed Saeed. Laney also exhibited psychotic symptoms prior to the attacks on her children. In other words, there are medical authorities who can show clinical proof of the insanity of these two women. Where is the clinical proof of the insanity of the 9/11 hijackers? MAJ Nidal Hasan? The Christmas Day underwear bomber? Any of the Muslims who have committed the 1,500 documented terrorist acts documented since 9/11?But, but, but...God smote people. And, and, and...THE CRUSADES!!11eleventybillion!!1!! /end wee-wee.

Normally I would never quote a post with so much text...but good post Ody. It's a shame he won't read it and he'll just end up posting some nonsense about how Jesus was an extremist because He ripped that curtain in half or some shit. :D

Odysseus
08-23-2010, 07:15 PM
But, but, but...God smote people. And, and, and...THE CRUSADES!!11eleventybillion!!1!! /end wee-wee.

Normally I would never quote a post with so much text...but good post Ody. It's a shame he won't read it and he'll just end up posting some nonsense about how Jesus was an extremist because He ripped that curtain in half or some shit. :D

Thanks. Wrong Way Wei only seems immune to logic, but eventually, he will either find the facts or quit. If he quits the forum, then it's his loss (and our gain), but if he comes around and begins questioning his premises, then it's everyone's gain.

Remember, you can lead a horse to water, and if you hold his head under long enough, he's bound to swallow some of it. :D

hampshirebrit
08-25-2010, 04:24 PM
WeeWee is ok, mostly.

He's not the ilk of the late unlamented and demented Shat-her-knickers, by a long way. He's far more polite than that, generally, let's face it.

I'm thinking maybe we should have a "Let's Be Nice to WeeWee Hour" now and then.

Rockntractor
08-25-2010, 04:32 PM
WeeWee is ok, mostly.

He's not the ilk of the late unlamented and demented Shat-her-knickers, by a long way. He's far more polite than that, generally, let's face it.

I'm thinking maybe we should have a "Let's Be Nice to WeeWee Hour" now and then.

http://www.thefinestwriter.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/barney.jpg

Odysseus
08-25-2010, 04:38 PM
WeeWee is ok, mostly.

He's not the ilk of the late unlamented and demented Shat-her-knickers, by a long way. He's far more polite than that, generally, let's face it.

I'm thinking maybe we should have a "Let's Be Nice to WeeWee Hour" now and then.
I'm at the point where I no longer want to be nice to people who hold my views, nation and life's work in contempt.

http://www.thefinestwriter.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/barney.jpg
Which Mod is that in the middle?

hampshirebrit
08-25-2010, 04:43 PM
I'm at the point where I no longer want to be nice to people who hold my views, nation and life's work in contempt.

Fair enough. I didn't say it would be compulsory, did I?



Which Mod is that in the middle?

I'm guessing you're meaning me, although I'm not sure why you'd think that.

Odysseus
08-25-2010, 04:46 PM
Fair enough. I didn't say it would be compulsory, did I?
In fairness, you did not. Still, it would be uncivil to be uncivil without explaining why I choose to be uncivil, since you asked with such civliity. :D

I'm guessing you're meaning me, although I'm not sure why you'd think that.
I'd forgotten that you were a mod. I see you more as a rocker.

hampshirebrit
08-25-2010, 04:50 PM
Good climb-down, classy. You can stay. :p:D

PoliCon
08-25-2010, 04:50 PM
I'm at the point where I no longer want to be nice to people who hold my views, nation and life's work in contempt.

Which Mod is that in the middle?

purple is close to red . . . right? :D

hampshirebrit
08-25-2010, 04:57 PM
purple is close to red . . . right? :D

English! English!

Can anyone translate this, pls. I'm obviously missing some cultural iconography here.

hazlnut
08-25-2010, 07:56 PM
Unsurprising. I think we all knew something like this would happen. They might have the right to build it, but they don't have the right to get it built.

They won't have any problem finding construction workers.

This is a small loud minority of workers who have been taken in by the moronic Beck-Hannity-Newt talking points.

Money talks, and ginned up fear-mongering walks.:cool:

Bailey
08-25-2010, 08:35 PM
They won't have any problem finding construction workers.

This is a small loud minority of workers who have been taken in by the moronic Beck-Hannity-Newt talking points.

Money talks, and ginned up fear-mongering walks.:cool:


If the union is againest it it aint getting done. No scabs will dare work on it.

Rockntractor
08-25-2010, 08:38 PM
English! English!

Can anyone translate this, pls. I'm obviously missing some cultural iconography here.

Left you bloody hanging he did!:rolleyes:

Odysseus
08-25-2010, 09:41 PM
They won't have any problem finding construction workers.

This is a small loud minority of workers who have been taken in by the moronic Beck-Hannity-Newt talking points.

Money talks, and ginned up fear-mongering walks.:cool:

Did you even read my reply to your last post? Or are you just here to regurgitate talking points?

PoliCon
08-25-2010, 10:25 PM
English! English!

Can anyone translate this, pls. I'm obviously missing some cultural iconography here.

What do you all call redheads on your side of the pond? :rolleyes:

PoliCon
08-25-2010, 10:26 PM
They won't have any problem finding construction workers.

This is a small loud minority of workers who have been taken in by the moronic Beck-Hannity-Newt talking points.

Money talks, and ginned up fear-mongering walks.:cool:

Oh yes. These members of clearly left wing unions have been influenced by beck. :rolleyes: Cripes Satanicus. You're making this account look stupid now too. :rolleyes:

lacarnut
08-25-2010, 11:29 PM
They won't have any problem finding construction workers.

This is a small loud minority of workers who have been taken in by the moronic Beck-Hannity-Newt talking points.

Money talks, and ginned up fear-mongering walks.:cool:

Dream on. There are a number of hurdles in NYC including permits, inspections, etc that this thing will not get off the ground.

patriot45
08-25-2010, 11:33 PM
Dream on. There are a number of hurdles in NYC including permits, inspections, etc that this thing will not get off the ground.

Like I said before... poison the site with pork! Bacon, hot dogs and bbque! Let em eat grease!
I can't believe New Yorkers will let this happen, think Sopranos! :D