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warpig
08-22-2010, 09:43 AM
http://www.theprovince.com/news/Women+targeted+Chechnya/3428925/story.html



Many women in Russia's volatile Chechnya region said on Friday they had been harassed and some physically harmed by bands of men for not wearing head scarves during the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan.

Against the backdrop of a spreading Islamist insurgency, many fear that growing interest in radical Islam could fuel separatism in the volatile North Caucasus, where the Kremlin watches uneasily as sharia law eclipses Russian.

Residents and witnesses told Reuters that bearded men in traditional Islamic dress have been roaming the streets both on foot and in cars since Ramadan started on Aug. 11, demanding bare-headed women wear a head scarf.

Islam's tolerance and understanding is showing again.

Odysseus
08-23-2010, 09:57 AM
And there are those who want Sharia Law to be used here, claiming that it's compatible with the US Constitution. Guess they missed that whole Bill of Rights thing...

PoliCon
08-23-2010, 10:37 AM
The religion of peace strikes again. . . .

KhrushchevsShoe
08-23-2010, 04:24 PM
Do you guys have any understanding at all of Chechnya's recent history? Russia has been turning the place into a parking lot every 4 or 5 years. It's not the religion that's making the place look like something out of Mad Max, its the routine bombings.

Jfor
08-23-2010, 04:38 PM
Do you guys have any understanding at all of Chechnya's recent history? Russia has been turning the place into a parking lot every 4 or 5 years. It's not the religion that's making the place look like something out of Mad Max, its the routine bombings.

Which part of
harassed and some physically harmed by bands of men for not wearing head scarves during the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan.
makes you think it has ANYTHING to do with Russia and everything to do with islam?

Odysseus
08-23-2010, 06:55 PM
Do you guys have any understanding at all of Chechnya's recent history? Russia has been turning the place into a parking lot every 4 or 5 years. It's not the religion that's making the place look like something out of Mad Max, its the routine bombings.
Uh, no.

Cyhechnya has certainly suffered under the Russians. Stalin's forced migration of the Chechens in the 1940s alone killed hundreds of thousands of them (possibly up to half of the Chechen population), but the Chechens weren't angels, even if they were not radically Islamic prior to the end of Soviet rule, they just hated the Russians (there had been flare ups of rebellion against Russian rule during every period of instability in Russia, even prior to the Soviets). Unfortunately, the WWII rebellion was in collusion with the Nazis, which made them unloved throughout the world. How much of this was opportunistic and how much ideological is not known, but the diversion of critical forces to put down the Chechens during the Battle of Stalingrad thoroughly pissed off Stalin and resulted in the forced migration.

When the Chechens rebelled in the aftermath of the collapse of the USSR and briefly achieved independence, the Islamists saw an opportunity to expand the global jihad and recruit. Saudi money bought weapons and financed Salafist/Wahhabi mosques that proceeded to radicalize as man Chechens as they could, with the result that the war has become bloodier. The Second Chechen War brought Chechniya back under Russian control, and that's been the status quo for the last few years. Putin has used the depredations of the Chechens (the deliberate targetting of children in Beslan, or civilians in a Moscow theater) as an excuse to tighten his hold on the security apparatus of Russia.

In other words, the Russians are bastards, but the Chechens, having bought into militant Islam, are now equal bastards.

You really ought to study history. You would make far fewer gaffes, for one thing, and your sweeping statements would be informed by something beyond your immediate prejudices and the DNC's latest talking points.

KhrushchevsShoe
08-23-2010, 08:07 PM
Uh, no.

Cyhechnya has certainly suffered under the Russians. Stalin's forced migration of the Chechens in the 1940s alone killed hundreds of thousands of them (possibly up to half of the Chechen population), but the Chechens weren't angels, even if they were not radically Islamic prior to the end of Soviet rule, they just hated the Russians (there had been flare ups of rebellion against Russian rule during every period of instability in Russia, even prior to the Soviets). Unfortunately, the WWII rebellion was in collusion with the Nazis, which made them unloved throughout the world. How much of this was opportunistic and how much ideological is not known, but the diversion of critical forces to put down the Chechens during the Battle of Stalingrad thoroughly pissed off Stalin and resulted in the forced migration.

When the Chechens rebelled in the aftermath of the collapse of the USSR and briefly achieved independence, the Islamists saw an opportunity to expand the global jihad and recruit. Saudi money bought weapons and financed Salafist/Wahhabi mosques that proceeded to radicalize as man Chechens as they could, with the result that the war has become bloodier. The Second Chechen War brought Chechniya back under Russian control, and that's been the status quo for the last few years. Putin has used the depredations of the Chechens (the deliberate targetting of children in Beslan, or civilians in a Moscow theater) as an excuse to tighten his hold on the security apparatus of Russia.

In other words, the Russians are bastards, but the Chechens, having bought into militant Islam, are now equal bastards.

You really ought to study history. You would make far fewer gaffes, for one thing, and your sweeping statements would be informed by something beyond your immediate prejudices and the DNC's latest talking points.

Yeah all those talking points regarding the Chechen conflict, cant get enough of those.

The first part of your post is meaningless, just your typical pretentious wank to self-glorify all this textbook regurgitation.

Here's your problem Ody, you are woefully incapable of reading in between the lines. What does Saudi Arabia produce a holy shitload of? The same stuff that squirts up in the Caucasus. Saudi support for the Chechens isn't out of some religiously driven desire for a global Islamic caliphate, its business. The Chechen conflict has hampered Russian oil production, which means less oil on the market, which means higher prices for oil, which ultimately means more money for the Saudi's. If you knew the slightest bit about Saudi politics you'd know they would throw Islam right out the window if it meant bigger heaps of money flowing in.

Whatever, you'll come up with whatever justification you can for your Holy War. I'm staying in the 21st century where even the simplest economics and power disparities can easily explain the persistence of so many ethnic conflicts.

Rockntractor
08-23-2010, 08:21 PM
Yeah all those talking points regarding the Chechen conflict, cant get enough of those.

The first part of your post is meaningless, just your typical pretentious wank to self-glorify all this textbook regurgitation.

Here's your problem Ody, you are woefully incapable of reading in between the lines. What does Saudi Arabia produce a holy shitload of? The same stuff that squirts up in the Caucasus. Saudi support for the Chechens isn't out of some religiously driven desire for a global Islamic caliphate, its business. The Chechen conflict has hampered Russian oil production, which means less oil on the market, which means higher prices for oil, which ultimately means more money for the Saudi's. If you knew the slightest bit about Saudi politics you'd know they would throw Islam right out the window if it meant bigger heaps of money flowing in.

Whatever, you'll come up with whatever justification you can for your Holy War. I'm staying in the 21st century where even the simplest economics and power disparities can easily explain the persistence of so many ethnic conflicts.
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/crazy_man_straight_jacket_hg_blk.gif?t=1282609238
Do you type with your feet?:confused:

PoliCon
08-23-2010, 08:25 PM
Here's your problem Ody, you are woefully incapable of reading in between the lines. What does Saudi Arabia produce a holy shitload of? The same stuff that squirts up in the Caucasus. Saudi support for the Chechens isn't out of some religiously driven desire for a global Islamic caliphate, its business. The Chechen conflict has hampered Russian oil production, which means less oil on the market, which means higher prices for oil, which ultimately means more money for the Saudi's. If you knew the slightest bit about Saudi politics you'd know they would throw Islam right out the window if it meant bigger heaps of money flowing in. You stupid fuck. :rolleyes: Ever heard of Wahhabi?

malloc
08-23-2010, 08:26 PM
Whatever, you'll come up with whatever justification you can for your Holy War. I'm staying in the 21st century where even the simplest economics and power disparities can easily explain the persistence of so many ethnic conflicts.

Translated: I don't care about historical facts in record. I'm going to believe that this whole conflict was about oil production regardless of any evidence to the contrary, because Islam is a good and peaceful religion despite all evidence to the contrary. After all, the DNC tells me so.

Get a book called My Jihad (http://www.amazon.com/Jihad-Americans-Laden-as-Operative-Government/dp/0743470591), and read it. It describes, in detail, the motivation behind a Muslim who left a comfortable life in California to Jihad in Chechnya. Yeah, I'm sure he was thinking about Saudi Arabia's oil production that whole time. :rolleyes:

Odysseus
08-23-2010, 10:43 PM
Yeah all those talking points regarding the Chechen conflict, cant get enough of those.
Obviously. If you had, you'd know the subject. Since you don't...


The first part of your post is meaningless, just your typical pretentious wank to self-glorify all this textbook regurgitation
Textbooks which I've read, and you haven't. But, don't let my knowledge and your lack of it get in the way of your theories.

Here's your problem Ody, you are woefully incapable of reading in between the lines. What does Saudi Arabia produce a holy shitload of? The same stuff that squirts up in the Caucasus. Saudi support for the Chechens isn't out of some religiously driven desire for a global Islamic caliphate, its business. The Chechen conflict has hampered Russian oil production, which means less oil on the market, which means higher prices for oil, which ultimately means more money for the Saudi's. If you knew the slightest bit about Saudi politics you'd know they would throw Islam right out the window if it meant bigger heaps of money flowing in.
And your problem is an inability to read history and understand any trend that requires you to think like anyone but yourself (or to think at all). Chechen oil production may be a factor in their calculation, but it's a minor one. Back towards the end of the Cold War, the Saudis took a massive hit on oil prices by ramping up production, in order to hurt the Russian economy, which was petroleum based. Does that sound like a nation that only cares about raking in money? Their pattern of behavior in the 80s only makes sense in the context of two events, the Sunni/Shia conflict and the Afghan jihad against the Soviets. The Iranian Shias were contesting the Saudi's status as the heirs to the caliphate and they were afraid that Iran, which was militarily superior to them, would invade (remember how Iranian Shia disrupted the Hajj in 1979?, quite a provocative act). So, rather than risk the Iranians exporting Shiite Islam, the Saudis invested in exporting Wahabbism, their hper-fundamentalist strain of Sunni Islam. And the Afghan jihad was about driving infidels from Islamic lands, not about oil or other resources. In fact, most of the Saudi approach to expanding Islam has been extremely costly for them. Their oil production has remained constant, but their population has grown significantly in the last few decades, so there are more people taking away pieces of the oil revenue pie. And yet, rather than diversify their economy and provide jobs for their idle young men, they bankroll jihad in places that have nothing to offer them. If it isn't about Islam, tell me why else would they be bankrolling madrassas, mosques and other ideological exports in places that have no oil? What is the Saudi interest in Kosovo? Afghanistan? Egypt? Pakistan? Panama? Thailand?

I can't wait to hear this one...

Whatever, you'll come up with whatever justification you can for your Holy War.
I see... I'm fighting a holy war, even though I'm an agnostic, because I'm motivated by ideology, but the Saudis aren't, because even though everything in their nation is based on slavish devotion to the most ascetic, fundamentalist sect in Islam, they're only motivated by money.:rolleyes:

I'm staying in the 21st century where even the simplest economics and power disparities can easily explain the persistence of so many ethnic conflicts.
The problem with staying in the 21st century is that our enemies haven't left the 7th. It's all about economic determinism and class warfare, no matter what else may be involved, because that's what some Marxist hack of a professor taught you. You don't understand the Saudis, or the Iranians, Iraqis, Sunni, Shia, Kurds, Turks, Azeris, or any of the other players in the region. You've never studied them or lived among them, and yet you presume to know what motivates them. But, maybe, just maybe, ethic and religious conflicts are... wait for it... ethnic and religious conflicts. What is the economic basis for the breakup of Yugoslavia and the ethnic cleansing? What is the economic basis for the Muslim Brotherhood? What is the economic basis for financing the Ground Zero mosque? There is none. If it isn't about Islam, then what's it about?

You know what really annoys me about you and Wei and Satanicus? I've only been studying warfare for the last two decades and gone back and forth to the Middle East a half dozen times. I've briefed my commands about the players in the region and taught deploying troops about the culture and history for the last six years. My Army Intermediate Level Education paper was on the Caucasus scenario, and I've been the recipient of hundreds of thousands of dollars of the best training that the government can provide in understanding the region, and yet, you dish up some warmed over crap from last week's Time magazine and you think that you can lecture to me. Clearly, I lack your insights into the region based on... what, exactly? What exactly is your background that gives you such incomparable insights? Please, pray tell, enlighten us with your boundless knowledge, explain it to us. We're all dying to hear your wisdom on the subject.

Translated: I don't care about historical facts in record. I'm going to believe that this whole conflict was about oil production regardless of any evidence to the contrary, because Islam is a good and peaceful religion despite all evidence to the contrary. After all, the DNC tells me so.

Get a book called My Jihad (http://www.amazon.com/Jihad-Americans-Laden-as-Operative-Government/dp/0743470591), and read it. It describes, in detail, the motivation behind a Muslim who left a comfortable life in California to Jihad in Chechnya. Yeah, I'm sure he was thinking about Saudi Arabia's oil production that whole time. :rolleyes:

Shoe used to be less of a tool. I suspect that he knows that as Obama implodes, he's seeing his world-view come crashing down with the administration's poll numbers, and he's becoming desperate to make sense of the world. Sadly, reality doesn't care about his illusions.