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Molon Labe
08-14-2008, 04:58 PM
A friend emailed me this article.
With Isaac Hayes recent death I thought it was interesting.


http://www.slate.com/id/2197279/


What will happen to Isaac Hayes' legendary soul?
By Nina Shen Rastogi
Posted Monday, Aug. 11, 2008, at 7:13 PM ET

Isaac Hayes
Singer Isaac Hayes died on Sunday at the age of 65. Besides being a sex symbol, a soul-music legend, and a beloved voice-over artist, Hayes was also a dedicated Scientologist. According to his religious beliefs, what happens to Hayes now that he's passed away?

His soul will be "born again into the flesh of another body," as the Scientology Press Office's FAQ puts it. The actual details of how that rebirth occurs are not fully understood by church outsiders, but some core beliefs of Scientology are that every human being is really an immortal spiritual being known as a thetan and that the "meat bodies" we inhabit are merely vessels we shed upon death. (Members of the elite church cadre known as Sea Org, for example, sign contracts that pledge a billion years of service throughout successive lives.)

When a body dies, its thetan forgets the details of the former life, though painful and traumatic images known as engrams remain rooted in its unconscious. In order to move up the path of spiritual progression—known as the Bridge to Total Freedom—one must eradicate these psychic scars, which cause a person to act fearfully and irrationally. Once a Scientologist has purged them through the counseling process known as auditing, he or she is said to be "clear."


According to an avowed Scientology antagonist who claims, on her Web site, to present factual information typically omitted from church press materials, the official Scientology publication Celebrity announced that Hayes attained "clear" status around 2002, though it is not known whether he progressed onto the highest parts of the Bridge....

Sonnabend
08-14-2008, 05:02 PM
http://heliologue.com/2005/06/24/xenu-needs-to-blow-up-tom-cruise/

75 million years ago, the galactic overlord for this sector of the galaxy was called Xenu. He was in charge of 76 planets, including Earth (at that time known as Teegeeack).

All of the planets Xenu controlled were over-populated by, on average, 178 billion people. Social problems dictated that Xenu rid his sector of the galaxy of this overpopulation problem, so he developed a plan.

Xenu sent out tax audit demands to all these trillions of people. As each one entered the audit centers for the income tax inspections, the people were seized, held down and injected with a mixture of alcohol and glycol, and frozen. Then, all 13.5 trillion of these frozen people were put into spaceships that looked exactly like DC8 airplanes, except that the spaceships had rocket engines instead of propellers.

Xenu’s entire fleet of DC8-like spaceships then flew to planet Earth, where the frozen people were dumped in and around volcanoes in the Canary Islands and the Hawaiian Islands. When Xenu’s Air Force had finished dumping the bodies into the volcanoes, hydrogen bombs were dropped into the volcanoes and the frozen space aliens were vaporized.

However, Xenu’s plan involved setting up electronic traps in Teegeeack’s atmosphere which were designed to trap the souls or spirits of the dead space aliens. When the 13.5 trillion spirits were being blown around on the nuclear winds, the electronic traps worked like a charm and captured all the souls in the electronic, sticky fly-paper like traps.

The spirits of the aliens were then taken to huge multiplex cinemas that Xenu had previously instructed his forces to build on Teegeeack. In these movie theaters the spirits had to spend many days watching special 3-D movies, the purpose of which was twofold: 1) to implant into these spirits a false reality, i.e. the reality that WOGS (Hubbard’s derisory term for anyone not a Scientologists) know on Earth today; and, 2) to control these spirits for all eternity so that they could never cause trouble for Xenu in this sector of the Galaxy

During these films, many false pictures and stories were implanted into these spirits, which resulted in the spirits believing in all the things that control mankind on Earth today, including religion. The concept of religion, including God, Christ, Mohammed, Moses etc., were all an implanted false reality that to this very minute are used to control WOGS on Earth.

When the films ended and the souls left the cinema, they started to stick together in clusters of a few thousand and remained that way until mankind began to inhabit the Earth. Today on Earth all the spirits of these aliens have attached themselves to our bodies and are the root cause of the false reality that all but Scientology’s “Homo Novis” or OT 8’s on earth experience.

It is the job of all Scientologists to remove this false reality from the world by auditing each and every space alien spirit and human on earth and the entire universe to CLEAR. For those who oppose Scientology and stand in their way like the Lisa McPherson Trust and all Scientology critics, Scientology promises to do away with them “quietly and without sorrow”.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Riighttttt........

wilbur
08-14-2008, 05:08 PM
Wasn't "Anonymous" supposed to have destroyed Scientology by now? ;)

I used to think scientologists took religious weirdness to a whole new level... but then I realized most religions are just as weird in their own way, Scientology isnt really that outlandish when you look at the other company it keeps. All Christians physically eat their lord every sunday (I guess except for those who think the Eucharist is more symbolic than actual flesh).. then you have all the weird smaller sects than believe any number of crazy things... Mormons, etc.. Muslims.... well don't even have to mention how weird they are.. even the benign kind... Hindus, Bhuddists.... they're all pretty damn weird. Some just seem less so because they've been around our whole lives so we've been desensitized to their weirdness. It's all extremely bizarre.

LogansPapa
08-14-2008, 05:37 PM
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/gallery/images/commercial/dc8-05.jpg

The DC-8 was/is a jetliner and……um, didn’t have any propellers - except a couple in the form of head fans.

Shannon
08-14-2008, 05:48 PM
I really don't know that much about Scientology but the more I read, the more freaked out I get.:eek:

LogansPapa
08-14-2008, 05:59 PM
Well, if it’s like most religions - what’s their "Hook?" What totally idiotic promises do they make to the chumps that come to serve? Is this whole organization just a gigantic pyramid scheme, or what?

:confused:

wilbur
08-14-2008, 06:21 PM
Well, if it’s like most religions - what’s their "Hook?" What totally idiotic promises do they make to the chumps that come to serve? Is this whole organization just a gigantic pyramid scheme, or what?

:confused:

They hook weak people (or people in a weak spot in their lives) through their free auditing sessions.

They basically try to emotionally break down a person in their initially free auditing sessions and then offer to fix them for a fee using pseudo-scientific crap called dianetics. I don't know if they focus on the afterlife that much... its more of a new agey style enlightenment thing that you are supposed to achieve. In other words, they convince someone that they are broken, then get the person fixated on correcting these imaginary problems.

Paco
08-14-2008, 06:22 PM
They generally start by doing their pseudo-psychology crap and "stress-relief" courses and sometimes their "healing" massages. By the time you've gotten to the Xenu story you've paid around $400,000, so you relally dont want ot realize that it is fake.

www.xenu.net
www.youtube.com/xenutv
www.whyweprotest.net
www.enturbulation.org
www.exscientologykids.org

wilbur
08-14-2008, 06:27 PM
They generally start by doing their pseudo-psychology crap and "stress-relief" courses and sometimes their "healing" massages. By the time you've gotten to the Xenu story you've paid around $400,000, so you relally dont want ot realize that it is fake.

www.xenu.net
www.youtube.com/xenutv
www.whyweprotest.net
www.enturbulation.org
www.exscientologykids.org

Part of their dogma is that psychology is evil. They instill a hostility towards psychology in all their members, so that they then become immune to the one thing that could help them see the brainwashing they are victims of.

Reminds me of creationists who imagine that modern science is all a vast conspiracy to remove God from our lives. The very education that can help them break away from their brainwashing is exactly what they are trained to fear and distrust.

wilbur
08-14-2008, 06:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecZexlEWcHw

LogansPapa
08-14-2008, 06:39 PM
They hook weak people (or people in a weak spot in their lives) through their free auditing sessions.

Shit, and here I thought that was the Jehovah Witness’ job?

A friend of mine’s mom is in that unadulterated cult and he says she keeps huge ‘Contact Logs’ and time sheets for her ‘Kingdom Hall’ and supposedly they track every person the proselytise to and if they see emotional trouble with that contact they grade them numerically.

This system allows members to ‘tag-team’ the contact and look for holes in that person’s strength - giving them an "in" to empathise what he poor soul and suck them in, like some kind of feeding ameba. From what my buddy has told me - that’s some vile shit to avoid at all costs.

Paco
08-14-2008, 06:46 PM
Part of their dogma is that psychology is evil. They instill a hostility towards psychology in all their members, so that they then become immune to the one thing that could help them see the brainwashing they are victims of.

Yeah, the Co$ is basically in competition with psychology, so they created CCHR (Citizens Commission on Human Rights) as a front group in an attempt to discredit the "psychs" as scientologists call them. They have created a ton of front groups that go around acting like legitimate groups meaning to belp people without mentioning their scientology foundation. They have a Narconon knock off called Narcanon, which many people are tricked into thinking that its the real thing and end up becoming sucked into scientology.

Here are some of my protest videos (I haven't updated them with more recent protests due to how busy I am currently)
http://www.youtube.com/InsanePacoTaco

( If you haven't figured it out, I'm with Anonymous. )

Gingersnap
08-14-2008, 08:22 PM
Part of their dogma is that psychology is evil. They instill a hostility towards psychology in all their members, so that they then become immune to the one thing that could help them see the brainwashing they are victims of.

Reminds me of creationists who imagine that modern science is all a vast conspiracy to remove God from our lives. The very education that can help them break away from their brainwashing is exactly what they are trained to fear and distrust.

The difference being that belief in creationism costs nothing and creationists don't shy away from scientific and technological break-throughs to save lives or make life easier. Also, creationists don't video tape each other making absurd confessions of sexual sins and moral failures and then use the tapes as leverage to extort more money from their flocks.

In addition, they don't make high profile believers marry Michael Jackson in order to promote a "he's a normal guy" propaganda effort.

Kind of a lot of differences, now that I think about it. :D

wilbur
08-14-2008, 08:32 PM
The difference being that belief in creationism costs nothing and creationists don't shy away from scientific and technological break-throughs to save lives or make life easier. Also, creationists don't video tape each other making absurd confessions of sexual sins and moral failures and then use the tapes as leverage to extort more money from their flocks.

In addition, they don't make high profile believers marry Michael Jackson in order to promote a "he's a normal guy" propaganda effort.

Kind of a lot of differences, now that I think about it. :D

Must.... resist..... thread jack..... argh..

Molon Labe
08-14-2008, 08:52 PM
They hook weak people (or people in a weak spot in their lives) through their free auditing sessions.

That's true of any mass movement...religious or not.

The Night Owl
08-14-2008, 10:52 PM
In addition, they don't make high profile believers marry Michael Jackson in order to promote a "he's a normal guy" propaganda effort.

Michael Jackson is a Jehovas Witness.


Kind of a lot of differences, now that I think about it. :D

Differences without distinctions. All religions are equally absurd and equally far fetched.

Gingersnap
08-14-2008, 11:14 PM
Michael Jackson is a Jehovas Witness.

Differences without distinctions. All religions are equally absurd and equally far fetched.

He moved over to Scientology. Kind of a career-oriented deal.

M21
08-14-2008, 11:20 PM
Differences without distinctions. All religions are equally absurd and equally far fetched.

I disagree. IMHO there are only two religions and they are not equal. LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSQZAZUkijk)

Molon Labe
08-15-2008, 07:03 AM
I disagree. IMHO there are only two religions and they are not equal. LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSQZAZUkijk)

That's a good video. But it will be picked apart here by others.

C.S. Lewis layed out a pretty good argument for believing in God in Mere Christianity. I wonder if anyone would be willing to read it?

FlaGator
08-15-2008, 07:46 AM
That's a good video. But it will be picked apart here by others.

C.S. Lewis layed out a pretty good argument for believing in God in Mere Christianity. I wonder if anyone would be willing to read it?

I've read it and found it to be a fascinating book. Since then I've read a lot of his stuff. The Great Divorce is high on the list of C.S. Lewis books to read.

As for the Scientologists, I thought that after they died they were reincarnated as ambulance chasing lawyers.

wilbur
08-15-2008, 08:02 AM
That's a good video. But it will be picked apart here by others.

C.S. Lewis layed out a pretty good argument for believing in God in Mere Christianity. I wonder if anyone would be willing to read it?

C.S. Lewis isnt particularly convincing... he disguises poor arguments with all the elegance of a writer of his skill... but for all his prose, he just repeats the same old stuff that was unconvincing before it was wrapped in pretty language, and remains so even after. That and it's pretty hard to take him seriously when indulges in every single fallacy that he wants to accuse atheism of.

As for that video... well, lets send out the memo to all of Christianity... they all got it wrong, but this one guy on youtube got it right!

Molon Labe
08-15-2008, 08:52 AM
C.S. Lewis isnt particularly convincing... he disguises poor arguments with all the elegance of a writer of his skill... but for all his prose, he just repeats the same old stuff that was unconvincing before it was wrapped in pretty language, and remains so even after. That and it's pretty hard to take him seriously when indulges in every single fallacy that he wants to accuse atheism of.

As for that video... well, lets send out the memo to all of Christianity... they all got it wrong, but this one guy on youtube got it right!

Mere Christianity does as good a job at promoting belief in a deity than any other work I've read discounting God. It's simply incidental that Lewis was a Christian. You're right he was a good writer, but also he was an atheist for most of his life. And he wasn't weak minded.

Better be careful with the "weak minded" spiel.

Chuck Norris might hear you. :D

wilbur
08-15-2008, 08:59 AM
Chuck Norris might hear you. :D

Now THERE is a convincing argument to convert right there ;)

http://boortz.com/images/funny/fark_chuck_norris_dog.jpg

Molon Labe
08-15-2008, 09:05 AM
Now THERE is a convincing argument to convert right there ;)

http://boortz.com/images/funny/fark_chuck_norris_dog.jpg

I guess you're aware he became a Christian. :p

wilbur
08-15-2008, 09:19 AM
You're right he was a good writer, but also he was an atheist for most of his life. And he wasn't weak minded.

As is the case with most atheist -> christian conversion "testimonials", it quickly becomes apparent most of them really didnt give their lack of belief due consideration. To make matters worse, it is usually accompanied by an equally well matched lack of thought and knowledge on religious practices, philosophies and arguments. People in this position are wide open to be swept away by the first theist argument that defies their simplistic preconceived notions on religion and atheism.

From what I have seen, such is the case with CS Lewis.

Anytime he recounts his atheist past, it quickly becomes clear he held a simplistic and flimsy view of atheism. It's not surprising (and extremely common) to see someone who has a such a shallow view of atheism get swept away by an adult, mature version of theism.

Molon Labe
08-15-2008, 09:37 AM
As is the case with most atheist -> christian conversion "testimonials", it quickly becomes apparent most of them really didnt give their lack of belief due consideration. To make matters worse, it is usually accompanied by an equally well matched lack of thought and knowledge on religious practices, philosophies and arguments. People in this position are wide open to be swept away by the first theist argument that defies their simplistic preconceived notions on religion and atheism.

From what I have seen, such is the case with CS Lewis.

Anytime he recounts his atheist past, it quickly becomes clear he held a simplistic and flimsy view of atheism. It's not surprising (and extremely common) to see someone who has a such a shallow view of atheism get swept away by an adult, mature version of theism.

Wilbur
Have you ever read Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer"?

People are compelled all the time to believe in something that may seem ludicrous to others. In some cases it's a relgion, in others it might be a ideal or philosophy about human nature. (here lately it's Neoconservatism)
It's no coincidence that many atheist's become Christians, as many Marxists became Nazi's, as many pacifists have become radicals. Why...even you, given the right set of circumstances in one's life, might be compelled into some mass movement.

wilbur
08-15-2008, 09:42 AM
Wilbur
Have you ever read Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer"?

People are compelled all the time to believe in something that may seem ludicrous to others. In some cases it's a relgion, in others it might be a ideal or philosophy about human nature. (here lately it's Neoconservatism)
It's no coincidence that many atheist's become Christians, as many Marxists became Nazi's, as many pacifists have become radicals. Why...even you, given the right set of circumstances in one's life, might be compelled into some mass movement.

No.... looks interesting though.

Molon Labe
08-15-2008, 09:55 AM
No.... looks interesting though.

I'm been reading it...(along with the dozen other things i want to read).
I'm not saying it's the gospel, but it's confirmed some strong beliefs I have that suggest that all ideas can be radicalized and it isn't just the Religious zealot who is blinded by his dogma. Every belief has a faith in it's dogma. Some Christians just get tired of hearing that they are somehow unique to irrational beliefs. Atheism has brought some of the worst tyranny this last century. It used God for it's own gain.

wilbur
08-15-2008, 10:01 AM
I'm been reading it...(along with the dozen other things i want to read).
I'm not saying it's the gospel, but it's confirmed some strong beliefs I have that suggest that all ideas can be radicalized and it isn't just the Religious zealot who is blinded by his dogma.

Oh I would never have any doubts about that. Heck, people even have 'religious' wars over brand names and computer operating systems;). You can get rid of all the religions that exist today and there would still be 'religions' of sorts... that is unless humanity can rid itself of whatever it is in our make-up that makes us susceptible to irrational beliefs.

The Night Owl
08-15-2008, 10:09 AM
I disagree. IMHO there are only two religions and they are not equal. LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSQZAZUkijk)

If I, being an atheist, were to try to determine the number of religions by only considering who made them, the number I would get is 1... because all religion is man-made.

Of course, even theists who count the number of religions by considering who made them should count only 1. If all things stem from a creator, then all religions, demonic or not, are the product of the creator.

The Night Owl
08-15-2008, 10:11 AM
Atheism has brought some of the worst tyranny this last century. It used God for it's own gain.

Arguing that atheists have brought tyranny in the last century is like arguing that people who don't believe in faeries have brought tyranny in the last century... true but meaningless.

Molon Labe
08-15-2008, 10:14 AM
Arguing that atheists have brought tyranny in the last century is like arguing that people who don't believe in faeries have brought tyranny in the last century... true but meaningless.

It makes a whole hell of a lot of difference when those same blames are put squarely on the shoulders of Religion. So I presume that you would agree that you're statement applies to the religious as well.

The Night Owl
08-15-2008, 10:17 AM
Wilbur
Have you ever read Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer"?

People are compelled all the time to believe in something that may seem ludicrous to others. In some cases it's a relgion, in others it might be a ideal or philosophy about human nature. (here lately it's Neoconservatism)

It's no coincidence that many atheist's become Christians, as many Marxists became Nazi's, as many pacifists have become radicals. Why...even you, given the right set of circumstances in one's life, might be compelled into some mass movement.

Absolutely true. One thing James Randi once said which has always stuck with me is that people have an almost irresistable urge to believe the irrational even in light of contradictory facts.

M21
08-15-2008, 10:18 AM
That's a good video. But it will be picked apart here by others.

C.S. Lewis layed out a pretty good argument for believing in God in Mere Christianity. I wonder if anyone would be willing to read it?

I think John Newton in the lyrics of Amazing Grace said it best "I was blind but now I see" I was a complete hard case although I didn't invest energy in being dogmatic about my atheism I was fairly certain I'd never become a Christian.

I now take a very high view of the sovereignty of God realizing that I had very little to do with my salvation. He called me, the most unworthy of all, and I simply responded. I certainly wasn't looking for him. Like Adam in the garden it wasn't Adam walking around saying "Where are you God?" It was God asking "Where are you Adam?"

That is why I rarely engage in debate about belief with unbelievers.

The Night Owl
08-15-2008, 10:26 AM
It makes a whole hell of a lot of difference when those same blames are put squarely on the shoulders of Religion. So I presume that you would agree that you're statement applies to the religious as well.

Correct. In the same way that I don't blame books, movies, music, and other media for actions they inspire, I also don't blame religion for actions it inspires. Religion provides a rationale for certain types of behavior but it has no power to command action.

Molon Labe
08-15-2008, 10:30 AM
Correct. In the same way that I don't blame literature, movies, or music for actions they inspire, I also don't blame religion for actions it inspires.

You would probably appreciate Hoffer's book. I'm no atheist or agnostic, but I gather he is simply by his tone. I lean more towards your statement above that it is actions that are to blame..although it's sometimes difficult to seperate. Hoffer does an excellent job of providing context for who exactly will be susceptible to things that may lead to tyranny.

FlaGator
08-15-2008, 11:13 AM
If I, being an atheist, were to try to determine the number of religions by only considering who made them, the number I would get is 1... because all religion is man-made.

Of course, even theists who count the number of religions by considering who made them should count only 1. If all things stem from a creator, then all religions, demonic or not, are the product of the creator.


The truth comes from the creator. Fallen man's imperfect understanding of the truth leads to all the different religions. God did not create them, man did. God didn't create evil or sin but those who lack understanging like to attribute those things to God.

FlaGator
08-15-2008, 11:20 AM
Arguing that atheists have brought tyranny in the last century is like arguing that people who don't believe in faeries have brought tyranny in the last century... true but meaningless.

I'm editing because I read read your posts and we agree to some extent on this. I will say that I believe that Atheism makes it a little easier for the events to take place.

wilbur
08-15-2008, 01:40 PM
Religion provides a rationale for certain types of behavior but it has no power to command action.

But people do have the power to command action... of others. In all the modern examples of dictatorships or tyrannies that led to genocides, we can see the same pattern of irrational adherence to a set of beliefs by the population, and a leader who cultivates it, and aligns himself with it... or even replaces it with himself as a holy deity-like figure.

The more rational a mind, the less susceptible to these sorts tricks it should become.

Perhaps the book Molon Labe recommends will shed some light on some of this.

FlaGator
08-15-2008, 04:28 PM
But people do have the power to command action... of others. In all the modern examples of dictatorships or tyrannies that led to genocides, we can see the same pattern of irrational adherence to a set of beliefs by the population, and a leader who cultivates it, and aligns himself with it... or even replaces it with himself as a holy deity-like figure.

The more rational a mind, the less susceptible to these sorts tricks it should become.

Perhaps the book Molon Labe recommends will shed some light on some of this.

How would a more rational mind be less susceptible to the tricks you reference? Power corrupts and all dictatorships demonstrate this principle in spades. When a individual has the power to enforce any rational or irrational belief he or she has then they will do so and justify it using whatever reason they believe the people would accept.

The Night Owl
08-15-2008, 05:08 PM
How would a more rational mind be less susceptible to the tricks you reference? Power corrupts and all dictatorships demonstrate this principle in spades. When a individual has the power to enforce any rational or irrational belief he or she has then they will do so and justify it using whatever reason they believe the people would accept.

Those who seek absolute power over the masses have a much easier time grabbing it and holding it when they convince the masses that they're magical or at least in touch with a diety.

wilbur
08-15-2008, 05:49 PM
How would a more rational mind be less susceptible to the tricks you reference? Power corrupts and all dictatorships demonstrate this principle in spades. When a individual has the power to enforce any rational or irrational belief he or she has then they will do so and justify it using whatever reason they believe the people would accept.

I'm not going to claim absolute immunity to such things, just much less susceptibility. Narrow the set of tools for the next would-be genocidal tyrant;).

What would such a tyrant look like? One that woos the rational mind?

Odysseus
08-15-2008, 06:34 PM
I'm editing because I read read your posts and we agree to some extent on this. I will say that I believe that Atheism makes it a little easier for the events to take place.

Both religious and secular mass-murderers have racked up impressive scores throughout history. The issue isn't whether or not the sociopath in question believes in God, the question is whether they are so taken with their version of reality that they have no compunction against playing God.

The Night Owl
08-15-2008, 06:48 PM
Both religious and secular mass-murderers have racked up impressive scores throughout history. The issue isn't whether or not the sociopath in question believes in God, the question is whether they are so taken with their version of reality that they have no compunction against playing God.

That's right. It isn't that religion or a lack of religion is dangerous. What is dangerous is the surrender of reason.

M21
08-15-2008, 07:06 PM
Both religious and secular mass-murderers have racked up impressive scores throughout history. The issue isn't whether or not the sociopath in question believes in God, the question is whether they are so taken with their version of reality that they have no compunction against playing God.

I believe the ultimate mass murderer will believe he is equal with God and I am far more concerned for mankind about the man who submits to no higher authority than himself. He then becomes a law unto himself and he has nothing that compels him to restrain himself.

The Night Owl
08-15-2008, 07:33 PM
I believe the ultimate mass murderer will believe he is equal with God and I am far more concerned for mankind about the man who submits to no higher authority than himself. He then becomes a law unto himself and he has nothing that compels him to restrain himself.

Your post deserves a response more thoughtful than I can concoct, so here is really good one starting at 3:20 of the following audio clip...

Chapter Seventeen: An Objection Anticipated

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3RZUAQSn98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkIibyNwWrk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTx50ECJSEk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir6eCTpNEWc

M21
08-15-2008, 08:04 PM
Your post deserves a response more thoughtful than I can concoct, so here is really good one starting at 3:20 of the following audio clip...

Chapter Seventeen: An Objection Anticipated

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3RZUAQSn98

I found that he didn't address the point I made. He uses Calvin as an example, but Calvin was ultimately constrained in his deeds by the word of God. He acted within an external framework of moral restraint. The man who sets himself up as the ultimate authority is under no manner of obligation to adhere to the direction of any moral compass.

The unbeliever sets a lantern on the bow of his boat and rows toward the light. He has no landmarks.

The Night Owl
08-15-2008, 08:23 PM
I found that he didn't address the point I made. He uses Calvin as an example, but Calvin was ultimately constrained in his deeds by the word of God. He acted within an external framework of moral restraint.

Make sure you listen all the way up to and including Part 29. Part 29 in particular fleshes out what Wilbur talked about in post #39... the idea that totalitarianism is a recursion of the religious impulse.


The man who sets himself up as the ultimate authority is under no manner of obligation to adhere to the direction of any moral compass.

A man who believes that the will of a supreme authority can be known or felt by praying or by reading a book can be just as dangerous as a man who believes himself to be a supreme authority. Either way, it is always the surrender of reason which is the root of dangerous thinking.