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View Full Version : Military burns unsolicited Bibles sent to Afghanistan



bijou
09-09-2010, 01:59 PM
Military personnel threw away, and ultimately burned, confiscated Bibles that were printed in the two most common Afghan languages amid concern they would be used to try to convert Afghans, a Defense Department spokesman said Tuesday.


The unsolicited Bibles sent by a church in the United States were confiscated about a year ago at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan because military rules forbid troops of any religion from proselytizing while deployed there, Lt. Col. Mark Wright said. ...http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/us.military.bibles.burned/index.html

djones520
09-09-2010, 02:05 PM
We have pretty firm guidelines on this stuff. Not to suprising.

Rebel Yell
09-09-2010, 02:48 PM
We have pretty firm guidelines on this stuff. Not to suprising.

But, but, but, shouldn't that be considered provoaction?

Gingersnap
09-09-2010, 02:50 PM
Well, let me get in out in the street and turn over a few cars to show my superior outrage over this. :rolleyes:

lacarnut
09-09-2010, 02:52 PM
We have pretty firm guidelines on this stuff. Not to suprising.

Kinda make the General''s remark against burning the Koran look stupid though.

djones520
09-09-2010, 03:19 PM
Kinda make the General''s remark against burning the Koran look stupid though.

Not really.

Look, no one is saying that to our culture, the way people over here act is right.

But the facts are the facts. Burning a Koran will piss these guys off more then if I walked into your house unnanounced and pissed on your couch.

Ignoring that is just stupid. Understanding it, and working with it as best you can, is the only way to go. We aren't trying to turn these people into American's. We're trying to kill the terrorists, and let these people run their country the way they elect to. We are not going to do that by demanding they live by our values.

PoliCon
09-09-2010, 03:23 PM
God forbid that they be exposed to liberty and choice.

bijou
09-09-2010, 03:35 PM
Well, let me get in out in the street and turn over a few cars to show my superior outrage over this. :rolleyes:

Radical, I'm constructing a papier mache effigy of someone or another. :D

djones520
09-09-2010, 03:37 PM
God forbid that they be exposed to liberty and choice.

That is not why we are here Poli.

If you've never served overseas, I can understand it being a bit hard to understand. When you are stationed in places where the culture is significantly differant, emphasis is placed on us to realize that first and foremost, it is our job to respect the culture of the host nation. We are ambassadors.

The powerhouse that America is, means that what happens at home is known world wide. It does have impacts worldwide. If a bunch off asshats held a giant parade celebrating the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I can tell you without a doubt that protests would be taking place at every US base in Japan.

Afghanistan is not a 1st world country. For almost it's entire history, it hasn't been a true country period. It's been a collection of tribes led by warlords. Their culture is drastically differant from ours, and when this "invading" army from a country whose people commit the most atrocious acts that they can think of (burning the Koran) then you have to expect the reaction to be violent.

That is the point that Petraeus was trying to make. We're not in Kansas anymore. Our actions back home do have impacts in Afghanistan. And when we are trying to show the people that we are the good guys, acts such as this are very counterproductive.

PoliCon
09-09-2010, 03:38 PM
Radical, I'm constructing a papier mache effigy of someone or another. :D

It should of course be of Bush. ;)

PoliCon
09-09-2010, 03:46 PM
That is not why we are here Poli.

If you've never served overseas, I can understand it being a bit hard to understand. When you are stationed in places where the culture is significantly differant, emphasis is placed on us to realize that first and foremost, it is our job to respect the culture of the host nation. We are ambassadors.

The powerhouse that America is, means that what happens at home is known world wide. It does have impacts worldwide. If a bunch off asshats held a giant parade celebrating the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I can tell you without a doubt that protests would be taking place at every US base in Japan.

Afghanistan is not a 1st world country. For almost it's entire history, it hasn't been a true country period. It's been a collection of tribes led by warlords. Their culture is drastically differant from ours, and when this "invading" army from a country whose people commit the most atrocious acts that they can think of (burning the Koran) then you have to expect the reaction to be violent.

That is the point that Petraeus was trying to make. We're not in Kansas anymore. Our actions back home do have impacts in Afghanistan. And when we are trying to show the people that we are the good guys, acts such as this are very counterproductive.


WTF is it with people today? This is the third time someone has claimed superior knowledge based on someone daring to disagree with their POV. My comments have NOTHING to do with our stated mission and everything to do with an unstated reality: God forbid that they be exposed to liberty and choice.

Jones - I know full well why we are there. I know full well why we do not want then THINKING that we are there to convert them. At the same time - I would be remiss if I did not point out that like ALL muslim countries freedom and choice are anathema to their way of life. Once again we walk on egg shells being sensitive to their 'culture' and take bloody nose after bloody nose from them and from their IDIOT supporters here in the US.

noonwitch
09-09-2010, 03:49 PM
That is not why we are here Poli.

If you've never served overseas, I can understand it being a bit hard to understand. When you are stationed in places where the culture is significantly differant, emphasis is placed on us to realize that first and foremost, it is our job to respect the culture of the host nation. We are ambassadors.

The powerhouse that America is, means that what happens at home is known world wide. It does have impacts worldwide. If a bunch off asshats held a giant parade celebrating the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I can tell you without a doubt that protests would be taking place at every US base in Japan.

Afghanistan is not a 1st world country. For almost it's entire history, it hasn't been a true country period. It's been a collection of tribes led by warlords. Their culture is drastically differant from ours, and when this "invading" army from a country whose people commit the most atrocious acts that they can think of (burning the Koran) then you have to expect the reaction to be violent.

That is the point that Petraeus was trying to make. We're not in Kansas anymore. Our actions back home do have impacts in Afghanistan. And when we are trying to show the people that we are the good guys, acts such as this are very counterproductive.



It's not so different than when my dad served in Korea, after the war. They were there to shoot NK snipers and to build roads and put up phone and electrical wires in the rural parts of South Korea near the border. They were instructed to be friendly to the S Koreans, and were given Hershey bars to give to the kids.

The main difference is that all the South Koreans were glad they were there.

I give you credit-it's not an easy time to be in the US service, and you are there making a difference.

djones520
09-09-2010, 03:52 PM
WTF is it with people today? This is the third time someone has claimed superior knowledge based on someone daring to disagree with their POV. My comments have NOTHING to do with our stated mission and everything to do with an unstated reality: God forbid that they be exposed to liberty and choice.

Jones - I know full well why we are there. I know full well why we do not want then THINKING that we are there to convert them. At the same time - I would be remiss if I did not point out that like ALL muslim countries freedom and choice are anathema to their way of life. Once again we walk on egg shells being sensitive to their 'culture' and take bloody nose after bloody nose from them and from their IDIOT supporters here in the US.

You wouldn't be remiss, you would be wrong.

Roughly half of the countries that have majority muslim populations are secular. I'm in one right now, and you wouldn't know that 80% of the population was Muslim if you weren't told.

Afghanistan is an Islamic State though. Sharia is law there. And it was their choice to be that way. When we overthrew the Taliban, that is how the people chose to run their country. They were exposed to liberty and choice, and this is what they chose.

PoliCon
09-09-2010, 03:59 PM
You wouldn't be remiss, you would be wrong.

Roughly half of the countries that have majority muslim populations are secular. I'm in one right now, and you wouldn't know that 80% of the population was Muslim if you weren't told.

Afghanistan is an Islamic State though. Sharia is law there. And it was their choice to be that way. When we overthrew the Taliban, that is how the people chose to run their country. They were exposed to liberty and choice, and this is what they chose.

Even in 'secular' muslim states there is no freedom of religion - should a muslim in which ever stan you're in - I forget - convert to Christianity what happens to them?

djones520
09-09-2010, 04:01 PM
Even in 'secular' muslim states there is no freedom of religion - should a muslim in which ever stan you're in - I forget - convert to Christianity what happens to them?

Considering 11% of the population here is Orthodox Christian....

BTW, women here are entirely equal as well. They even serve in the military.

Jfor
09-09-2010, 04:03 PM
Not really.

Look, no one is saying that to our culture, the way people over here act is right.

But the facts are the facts. Burning a Koran will piss these guys off more then if I walked into your house unnanounced and pissed on your couch.

Ignoring that is just stupid. Understanding it, and working with it as best you can, is the only way to go. We aren't trying to turn these people into American's. We're trying to kill the terrorists, and let these people run their country the way they elect to. We are not going to do that by demanding they live by our values.

We weren't burning korans on Sept 10, 2001. What makes it any different now? The only thing these asshat muslims overseas are showing, is truly how intolerant they really are and that there is no such thing as a "moderate" muslim.


Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Jfor
09-09-2010, 04:05 PM
Considering 11% of the population here is Orthodox Christian....



Has nothing to do with converting from islam to Christianity. What is the penalty for somebody converting FROM islam TO any other religion?

djones520
09-09-2010, 04:08 PM
Has nothing to do with converting from islam to Christianity. What is the penalty for somebody converting FROM islam TO any other religion?

Nothing. There are laws specifically forbidding "retaliation" or forcible conversion. It is also illegal for any government entity to endorse a specific religion, or teach one.

And I was wrong, it's 17%, not 11%.

PoliCon
09-09-2010, 04:10 PM
Considering 11% of the population here is Orthodox Christian....

BTW, women here are entirely equal as well. They even serve in the military.

That does not even begin to deal with what I asked.

djones520
09-09-2010, 04:12 PM
Djibouti and Turkey are two other countries I can name off the top of my head whose constitutions gaurantee the freedom to practice whatever religion anyone wishes. And these countries are 96% and 99% Islamic respectively.

PoliCon
09-09-2010, 04:14 PM
Nothing. There are laws specifically forbidding "retaliation" or forcible conversion. It is also illegal for any government entity to endorse a specific religion, or teach one.

And I was wrong, it's 17%, not 11%.

I'm so glad that the 'law' forbids retaliation and forced conversions - of course it forbids retaliation and forced conversion because that is EXACTLY what happens - right? It is after all the SOP of islam.

PoliCon
09-09-2010, 04:14 PM
Djibouti and Turkey are two other countries I can name off the top of my head whose constitutions gaurantee the freedom to practice whatever religion anyone wishes. And these countries are 96% and 99% Islamic respectively.

Yea - Turkey is 99% islamic because they massacred their Christian minority less than 100 years ago.

lacarnut
09-09-2010, 04:15 PM
Not really.

Look, no one is saying that to our culture, the way people over here act is right.

But the facts are the facts. Burning a Koran will piss these guys off more then if I walked into your house unnanounced and pissed on your couch.

Ignoring that is just stupid. Understanding it, and working with it as best you can, is the only way to go. We aren't trying to turn these people into American's. We're trying to kill the terrorists, and let these people run their country the way they elect to. We are not going to do that by demanding they live by our values.

Instead of the military burning the Bibles, why did they not just send them back. Talk about some insensitive pricks in the military that made that decision. An atheist might not have any qualms about doing that but someone that is a Christian might find it highly offensive.

Look, I think Afghan is a lost cause. We should get out. We have spent billions and lost too many lives in my opinion. The terrorist hate us and it does not matter what we do. The war is not winnable. Seven years of fighting and we are worse off. The government is corrupt. Billions of dollars have been stolen and are located out of the country by the Karzai family and friends. The Afghan people can not come together and agree on a unified government. It is time to leave this shit-hole. We are too stupid to even destroy the poppy fields. We should have been paying them to grow other crops rather than letting the enemy earn zillions of dollars off the drug trade to buy weapons to kill our boys. This is not how you fight a war. It is fucked up from soup to nuts. Also, the money and time spent trying to train an Afghans military is a joke.

djones520
09-09-2010, 04:16 PM
I'm so glad that the 'law' forbids retaliation and forced conversions - of course it forbids retaliation and forced conversion because that is EXACTLY what happens - right? It is after all the SOP of islam.

And what of our laws against it?

djones520
09-09-2010, 04:18 PM
Instead of the military burning the Bibles, why did they not just send them back. Talk about some insensitive pricks in the military that made that decision. An atheist might not have any qualms about doing that but someone that is a Christian might find it highly offensive.

Look, I think Afghan is a lost cause. We should get out. We have spent billions and lost too many lives in my opinion. The terrorist hate us and it does not matter what we do. The war is not winnable. Seven years of fighting and we are worse off. The government is corrupt. Billions of dollars have been stolen and are located out of the country by the Karzai family and friends. The Afghan people can not come together and agree on a unified government. It is time to leave this shit-hole. We are even too stupid to even destroy the poppy fields. We should have been paying them to grow other crops rather than letting the enemy earn zillions of dollars off the drug trade to buy weapons to kill our boys. This is not how you fight a war. It is fucked up from soup to nuts. Also, the money and time spent trying to train an Afghans military is a joke.


We use burn pits Lacar. All trash is disposed of in those pits. It's not like a special bonfire was held for the bibles alone.

PoliCon
09-09-2010, 04:18 PM
And what of our laws against it?

red herring.

djones520
09-09-2010, 04:23 PM
red herring.

Your the one who claimed that they only had it because of a precedent. Well why do we have it then?

This is what is says in their Constitution.


3. All persons in the Kyrghyz Republic are equal before law and the court. No person shall be subject to any kind of discrimination, violation of his rights and freedoms on the ground of ethnic origin, sex, race, nationality, language, religion, political and religious convictions, as well as under other conditions and circumstances of private or social nature.

Which would mean no retaliation, no forced conversions.

Jfor
09-09-2010, 04:28 PM
Djibouti and Turkey are two other countries I can name off the top of my head whose constitutions gaurantee the freedom to practice whatever religion anyone wishes. And these countries are 96% and 99% Islamic respectively.

And their constitutions are in direct conflict with sharia law which is gaining more and more ground in those countries you mention. And to answer the question I asked earlier, the punishment for ANY muslim who converts to another another religion, is death. It may not be by the state. But if they are killed by another muslim, especially where sharia law is implemented, it is ok.

djones520
09-09-2010, 04:28 PM
Look, I'm just gonna stop here. It's obvious you want to use the broad brush strokes, and what I say isn't gonna change it. So I'm not gonna bother anymore.

lacarnut
09-09-2010, 05:47 PM
We use burn pits Lacar. All trash is disposed of in those pits. It's not like a special bonfire was held for the bibles alone.

Why do you call Bibles trash? I still say the stupid fuckers in the military could have sent the bibles back rather than burn them.

hazlnut
09-09-2010, 06:01 PM
Once again we walk on egg shells being sensitive to their 'culture' and take bloody nose after bloody nose from them and from their IDIOT supporters here in the US.

Well, the Prime Directive dictates that there can be no interference with the internal development of pre-warp civilizations, consistent with the historical real world concept of Westphalian sovereignty.

But where did they get all that porn being sold on the sidewalks in Bagdad?

lacarnut
09-09-2010, 06:22 PM
But where did they get all that porn being sold on the sidewalks in Bagdad?

Probably from a punk like you.

Bubba Dawg
09-09-2010, 06:47 PM
Probably from a punk like you.

Timely. Funny too. :D

Zathras
09-09-2010, 07:24 PM
http://chzderp.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/599fcaf0-6ede-4adc-b9de-80d71bda4249.jpg

Fixed for accuracy.

Hey DUmbass, no one here gives a flying fuck about the opinions of a waste of skin coward such as yourself so shut the fuck up and go die in a fire.

Rockntractor
09-09-2010, 08:57 PM
I should be out rioting and turning over cars but I'm to tired tonight.

Phillygirl
09-09-2010, 09:09 PM
Why do you call Bibles trash? I still say the stupid fuckers in the military could have sent the bibles back rather than burn them.

Because from a military perspective, at that point, that's what those books were...unsolicited paperstock that needed to be disposed of. Sort of like all the sunscreen they have over there.

I don't agree with Bible bonfires, but I have no issue with what the military did here. Everyone is at risk over there if there is a suspicion of proselytizing. There have been quite a few asshole do gooders over there that have attempted to proselytize that has put everyone, military and NGO alike, in danger. The Church that sent those Bibles obviously wasn't doing it for our military. If they want to proselytize, then they should buy their own ticket and hand those Bibles out themselves. And our military shouldn't lift a finger to help them. Sometimes stupid hurts. Sometimes it hurts right down to your spinal chord.

Rockntractor
09-09-2010, 09:15 PM
Because from a military perspective, at that point, that's what those books were...unsolicited paperstock that needed to be disposed of. Sort of like all the sunscreen they have over there.

I don't agree with Bible bonfires, but I have no issue with what the military did here. Everyone is at risk over there if there is a suspicion of proselytizing. There have been quite a few asshole do gooders over there that have attempted to proselytize that has put everyone, military and NGO alike, in danger. The Church that sent those Bibles obviously wasn't doing it for our military. If they want to proselytize, then they should buy their own ticket and hand those Bibles out themselves. And our military shouldn't lift a finger to help them. Sometimes stupid hurts. Sometimes it hurts right down to your spinal chord.

I would agree to a point but I do question the timing.
If I remember correctly these have been in their possession for quite awhile and it is to much of a coincident that they would burn them now, and why announce it?
I think this was another in your face by Obama.

Bubba Dawg
09-09-2010, 09:19 PM
They should have treated these Bibles with the same respect they would show texts of the Koran.

Pack them up, stick them in a corner, and STFU about it.

Kay
09-09-2010, 11:13 PM
Yea - Turkey is 99% islamic because they massacred their Christian minority less than 100 years ago.

LOL. :D
And true.

Kay
09-09-2010, 11:21 PM
They should have treated these Bibles with the same respect they would show texts of the Koran.

Pack them up, stick them in a corner, and STFU about it.

Absolutely agree with this. They could have shipped them to our own military
hospitals, other bases, returned to sender, etc. Our military burning piles of Christian
Bibles to the delight of the very enemy we are war with seems to me like throwing up
a white flag. If we end up at Gitmo with an excess of Quran books, will we throw those
in a pit and burn them too because they are "unsolicited paperstock that needed to be
disposed of"? I think not.

Mass burning of any religion's holy book is bad juju. http://www.smilieshq.com/smilies/sign0195.gif
For any culture, anytime, anywhere.

lacarnut
09-09-2010, 11:52 PM
Because from a military perspective, at that point, that's what those books were...unsolicited paperstock that needed to be disposed of. Sort of like all the sunscreen they have over there.

I don't agree with Bible bonfires, but I have no issue with what the military did here. Everyone is at risk over there if there is a suspicion of proselytizing. There have been quite a few asshole do gooders over there that have attempted to proselytize that has put everyone, military and NGO alike, in danger. The Church that sent those Bibles obviously wasn't doing it for our military. If they want to proselytize, then they should buy their own ticket and hand those Bibles out themselves. And our military shouldn't lift a finger to help them. Sometimes stupid hurts. Sometimes it hurts right down to your spinal chord.

I don't see the harm in sending them back. Plus, like Rock stated, why announce it now. The timing does sound kinda fishy.

Talking about stupid, you should know. Your post proves that.

KhrushchevsShoe
09-10-2010, 02:08 AM
God forbid that they be exposed to liberty and choice.

Stop trying to force that on people who dont want it. If they want to live under a despot so be it, its not our fucking job to send 18 year olds everywhere to die because idiots like you are engaged in global ideological battle over who has liberty.

Sonnabend
09-10-2010, 02:25 AM
Stop trying to force that on people who dont want it. If they want to live under a despot so be it, its not our fucking job to send 18 year olds everywhere to die because idiots like you are engaged in global ideological battle over who has liberty.No one SENDS them anywhere, they VOLUNTEER to serve. There are no conscripts, no draftees, each and every one joins knowing the risks and the dangers..they go anyway.

One massive example is the mass re enlistment of soldiers in Iraq. They knew the dangers, they knew it was a war zone...they stood up and said "I want to be here".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acc2OSGXevA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ52iEfwh-k&feature=related

Of such men is freedom maintained, of such are the guardians of liberty honoured, to such men we owe our deepest gratitude and respect.

They even defend the rights of creeps like you , who spit on their service and valour.