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View Full Version : Can you be a leftist without being a Socialist or Communist?



CaughtintheMiddle1990
09-17-2010, 08:11 AM
Well, what do you fellows think?
I personally think there's different degrees of the political spectrum--Different degrees of right wing, different degrees of left ring. Then there's sub categories of both--Some rightists are only fiscal conservatives, others are both fiscal and social conservatives, others are strictly social conservatives but fiscal liberals; the same goes for the left end.

I think to categorize all leftists, or all rightists, by one tag is wrong. I'm, compared to the majority of those here, pretty left wing, yet I reject Socialism and Communism; I also reject a lot of social liberalism and reject the anti-American doctrines of those like Howard Zinn, guys who are so far to the left culturally that they only see America in a negative light (As an aside, Zinn's FBI file was released after his death and showed he had been a CPUSA member from the 30s onward).

I just think there are people who are Leftists, whether in general, or just on certain issues, who are simply leftists but not communists. Take Richard Nixon--reknowned anti-Communist and was reviled by the far left and New Left for being so, yet governed in a very Old Left fashion as President. I don't think he was a communist, or hated America. Same goes for guys like LBJ, and yes, even FDR. I don't think any of them hated America the way modern far leftists do, nor did they support communism. I mean Reagan was a registered Democrat and liberal until 1962 and had voted for Roosevelt and campaigned for Truman, but I doubt even when he was a Democrat that he supported communism.

It's just the broad brushing--AND BOTH SIDES ARE VERY MUCH GUILTY OF IT--is getting to be rather extreme.

Sonnabend
09-17-2010, 08:27 AM
Well, well, look what came back after storming off in a girlie huff. How's your friend the Marine on his "crusade"?


It's just the broad brushing--AND BOTH SIDES ARE VERY MUCH GUILTY OF IT--is getting to be rather extreme.

Like your continued implied slurs on US Marines? You never did get around to telling me what unit he was with...........

Sonnabend
09-17-2010, 08:35 AM
And in answer? No..because the left insists that everyone else pay for them regardless, so that means wealth redistribution and handing over your hard earned wealth to some useless, drugged out, burned out hippie who hasnt worked in years and hasnt bathed for that much longer.

Look at Obambi and his "spread the wealth around", left = communist ./ socialist / wealth envy = "I dont want to have to work so gimme what you got. and if you wont. I'm gonna make the government make you gimme it"

With lefties the other meme is that everything is always someone else's fault...the cult of the professional victim.

movie buff
09-17-2010, 08:39 AM
You can absolutely be a leftist without being a Socialist or Communist. I know of several leftists who fit neither description.

noonwitch
09-17-2010, 09:05 AM
I'm a leftist, but I am not a communist or socialist.


I don't support the redistribution of wealth, but I support welfare reform that includes work, education and training for better jobs for people who are currently on welfare. The goal should always be to help them help themselves, not for the government to subsidize families generation after generation. Welfare is a trap, it's not good for the people who are recipients. It freezes them at a certain level of income and lifestyle, and they then are afraid of losing what little they have and they have no motivation to find something better.

I also support the second amendment, even though I myself am not a gun owner or user. I have no problem with anyone here having guns, for example. I think that efforts should be made to keep crazy and dangerous people from getting guns, but a nutjob doesn't need a gun to kill people, a gun just makes it easier for him to do so.

But I support a liberal social agenda-Roe v Wade, Brown v The Board of Education/Civil Rights Act, Miranda v Arizona, etc. I don't think the government has the right to tell women they can't end a pregnancy, I don't think public schools should be having prayer time during school hours, and I think that the police should remind people of their rights when they arrest them.

On the other hand, I am not one of those extreme liberals who can't stand to hear the other side of issues. I understand why people oppose legalized abortion, and I respect those who honestly offer alternatives and assistance to women who seek their assistance in lieu of having an abortion. I don't think that public schools should ban all religious speech, especially that which is initiated by students. A valdictorian should be allowed to mention God in her graduation speech, for example.

I don't hate the military, and although I did not support the Iraq War, I did not protest it after it started, out of respect for those who were serving in it. A lot of men in my family served in the military over the years, including my dad (Army/Korea, right after the war ended) and my great uncle (a Sea Bee in WWII). Also, on one side of the family, we can trace our heritage to the Mayflower, and we had a Revolutionary solider in our line of descent, so I am eligible to be a member of the DAR and the Mayflower Society. I'm proud of that heritage.

I mistrust Islam (I am a feminist), but am coworker, colleague and neighbor to many muslims I like. I feel the same way to a lesser degree about Catholicism/catholics, but I recognize that there aren't many catholics who expect me to wear a covering from head to toe to keep their men from lusting after me.

As you all know, Obama was not my first choice to be president, I was a Hillary voter. I'm planning to vote for a liberal republican for Michigan governor, and crossed over to vote for him in the primary because I liked him, not because of wanting to mess up the GOP primary. I'm a union member, but I have always been highly suspicious of their motives.

When I actually had dinner with DU members from the Detroit area, I had absolutely nothing in common with any of them. I had a job, for one thing, and none of them did. I never hooked up with them again.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
09-17-2010, 09:27 AM
I'm a leftist, but I am not a communist or socialist.


I don't support the redistribution of wealth, but I support welfare reform that includes work, education and training for better jobs for people who are currently on welfare. The goal should always be to help them help themselves, not for the government to subsidize families generation after generation. Welfare is a trap, it's not good for the people who are recipients. It freezes them at a certain level of income and lifestyle, and they then are afraid of losing what little they have and they have no motivation to find something better.

I also support the second amendment, even though I myself am not a gun owner or user. I have no problem with anyone here having guns, for example. I think that efforts should be made to keep crazy and dangerous people from getting guns, but a nutjob doesn't need a gun to kill people, a gun just makes it easier for him to do so.

But I support a liberal social agenda-Roe v Wade, Brown v The Board of Education/Civil Rights Act, Miranda v Arizona, etc. I don't think the government has the right to tell women they can't end a pregnancy, I don't think public schools should be having prayer time during school hours, and I think that the police should remind people of their rights when they arrest them.

On the other hand, I am not one of those extreme liberals who can't stand to hear the other side of issues. I understand why people oppose legalized abortion, and I respect those who honestly offer alternatives and assistance to women who seek their assistance in lieu of having an abortion. I don't think that public schools should ban all religious speech, especially that which is initiated by students. A valdictorian should be allowed to mention God in her graduation speech, for example.

I don't hate the military, and although I did not support the Iraq War, I did not protest it after it started, out of respect for those who were serving in it. A lot of men in my family served in the military over the years, including my dad (Army/Korea, right after the war ended) and my great uncle (a Sea Bee in WWII). Also, on one side of the family, we can trace our heritage to the Mayflower, and we had a Revolutionary solider in our line of descent, so I am eligible to be a member of the DAR and the Mayflower Society. I'm proud of that heritage.

I mistrust Islam (I am a feminist), but am coworker, colleague and neighbor to many muslims I like. I feel the same way to a lesser degree about Catholicism/catholics, but I recognize that there aren't many catholics who expect me to wear a covering from head to toe to keep their men from lusting after me.

As you all know, Obama was not my first choice to be president, I was a Hillary voter. I'm planning to vote for a liberal republican for Michigan governor, and crossed over to vote for him in the primary because I liked him, not because of wanting to mess up the GOP primary. I'm a union member, but I have always been highly suspicious of their motives.

When I actually had dinner with DU members from the Detroit area, I had absolutely nothing in common with any of them. I had a job, for one thing, and none of them did. I never hooked up with them again.

Your views sound 99% like my own. The only point I disagree on really besides Hillary is your slight distrust of Catholics.

FlaGator
09-17-2010, 09:37 AM
I know serveral people who are leftist but certainly not socialists or communists. They tend to desire a bigger role of government in the lives of individuals than I am comfortable with but their views are not that of the extreme leftists.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
09-17-2010, 09:49 AM
Well, well, look what came back after storming off in a girlie huff. How's your friend the Marine on his "crusade"?



Like your continued implied slurs on US Marines? You never did get around to telling me what unit he was with...........

And I'm still not going to get around to telling you. And by the way, a person being a US Marine doesn't make them a Saint or immune from any and all personal criticism.

Gingersnap
09-17-2010, 09:49 AM
Plenty of people are left-of-center without being socialists or communists. For a lot of people, being part of the Left is more of a cultural legacy than anything else. They like some political or social positions on the Left and they don't think much about the things they disagree with or about the ramifications of some of their positions.

People on the Right can be the same way. Meh.

KhrushchevsShoe
09-17-2010, 02:27 PM
Communism is more political than economic, and since nobody wants to have Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn writing a 3000 page book of all thier atrocities, very few people who understand what communism really is see that as the goal. Stalin was a bad person, purges are morally questionable, gulags aren't fun, these are things we can all agree on.

Soviet communsim can teach us something though, its that you cannot eradicate capitalism. The hoarding of raw matierials and bartering between factories to get those materials on black markets was incentive driven (even if the incentive was still being able to breath) and no matter what Moscow tried to do they just couldn't stop it.

So to answer OP's question:
1) I'm not really left leaning, but
2) Some of my views that do stray a bit to left hardly desire a command ecnomy because
3) It doesn't work well, and the one time it kind of did can only be credited to some sort of divine intervention because when you really look at that one case study it starts being comical post-Stalin and downright ludricous around mid-Brezhnev.

Wei Wu Wei
09-17-2010, 03:11 PM
Let's break it down: you have your college iphone liberals who call themselves liberals because they are pro-gay rights, pro-choice, they vote democrat and believe democrats can actually do the job, they love Obama. For the most part, they either agree with conservatives or at least take watered-down versions of what they want.

being a liberal is the antithesis of being a marxist. the whole point of marxism is that there are economic structures we shouldn't have the liberty to participate in because they are detrimental and self perpetuating

Wei Wu Wei
09-17-2010, 04:44 PM
Liberals think the most important issues are letting gays marry and fight in the military. This is the extent of the intellectual weight of a liberal.

marinejcksn
09-17-2010, 05:18 PM
Like your continued implied slurs on US Marines? You never did get around to telling me what unit he was with...........

What slurs on my Devil Dogs? :mad: I must've missed this one.

marinejcksn
09-17-2010, 05:20 PM
I'm a leftist, but I am not a communist or socialist.


I don't support the redistribution of wealth, but I support welfare reform that includes work, education and training for better jobs for people who are currently on welfare. The goal should always be to help them help themselves, not for the government to subsidize families generation after generation. Welfare is a trap, it's not good for the people who are recipients. It freezes them at a certain level of income and lifestyle, and they then are afraid of losing what little they have and they have no motivation to find something better.

I also support the second amendment, even though I myself am not a gun owner or user. I have no problem with anyone here having guns, for example. I think that efforts should be made to keep crazy and dangerous people from getting guns, but a nutjob doesn't need a gun to kill people, a gun just makes it easier for him to do so.

But I support a liberal social agenda-Roe v Wade, Brown v The Board of Education/Civil Rights Act, Miranda v Arizona, etc. I don't think the government has the right to tell women they can't end a pregnancy, I don't think public schools should be having prayer time during school hours, and I think that the police should remind people of their rights when they arrest them.

On the other hand, I am not one of those extreme liberals who can't stand to hear the other side of issues. I understand why people oppose legalized abortion, and I respect those who honestly offer alternatives and assistance to women who seek their assistance in lieu of having an abortion. I don't think that public schools should ban all religious speech, especially that which is initiated by students. A valdictorian should be allowed to mention God in her graduation speech, for example.

I don't hate the military, and although I did not support the Iraq War, I did not protest it after it started, out of respect for those who were serving in it. A lot of men in my family served in the military over the years, including my dad (Army/Korea, right after the war ended) and my great uncle (a Sea Bee in WWII). Also, on one side of the family, we can trace our heritage to the Mayflower, and we had a Revolutionary solider in our line of descent, so I am eligible to be a member of the DAR and the Mayflower Society. I'm proud of that heritage.

I mistrust Islam (I am a feminist), but am coworker, colleague and neighbor to many muslims I like. I feel the same way to a lesser degree about Catholicism/catholics, but I recognize that there aren't many catholics who expect me to wear a covering from head to toe to keep their men from lusting after me.

As you all know, Obama was not my first choice to be president, I was a Hillary voter. I'm planning to vote for a liberal republican for Michigan governor, and crossed over to vote for him in the primary because I liked him, not because of wanting to mess up the GOP primary. I'm a union member, but I have always been highly suspicious of their motives.

When I actually had dinner with DU members from the Detroit area, I had absolutely nothing in common with any of them. I had a job, for one thing, and none of them did. I never hooked up with them again.

Noony, when are you going to admit you're a Conservative. :p Everything you described is Conservative, not Liberal.

Bailey
09-17-2010, 05:21 PM
What slurs on my Devil Dogs? :mad: I must've missed this one.

Hey said you're all gay :p;)











JUST KIDDING

marinejcksn
09-17-2010, 05:24 PM
Liberals think the most important issues are letting gays marry and fight in the military. This is the extent of the intellectual weight of a liberal.

Sounds like I don't mind the Liberals you speak of, then. Let 'em marry? Hey, if they wanna be as miserable as straight married couples, have at it. :D

In the military? The LAST thing going through a Marine's mind in a fighting hole in Iraq was "Is the dude beside me a pole-smoker?". The main thought was "God, I hope this guy is a good shot."

BadCat
09-17-2010, 05:37 PM
Leftist, Communist, Socialist, all synonyms in my vocabulary.

It would be a better world if they were all gone.

lacarnut
09-17-2010, 06:09 PM
Leftist, Communist, Socialist, all synonyms in my vocabulary.

It would be a better world if they were all gone.

Ditto

Sonnabend
09-17-2010, 06:43 PM
And I'm still not going to get around to telling you. And by the way, a person being a US Marine doesn't make them a Saint or immune from any and all personal criticism.

Reread the board rules. Far as I am concerned you're a liar.

noonwitch
09-20-2010, 09:07 AM
Your views sound 99% like my own. The only point I disagree on really besides Hillary is your slight distrust of Catholics.



I love Catholics, I just don't trust their church. Catholics are wonderful people, who value education and service to mankind.

Molon Labe
09-20-2010, 09:44 AM
Leftist, Communist, Socialist, all synonyms in my vocabulary.

It would be a better world if they were all gone.

yep.

All leftists to some degree sympathize with aspects of socialism.

Wei Wu Wei
09-20-2010, 03:39 PM
I'm a leftist, but I am not a communist or socialist.

Let's see where we agree...



I don't support the redistribution of wealth, but I support welfare reform that includes work, education and training for better jobs for people who are currently on welfare.

Absolutely agree. However, some people consider welfare (even smart welfare combined with job-training programs) to be a form of wealth redistribution.

I don't think just Robin Hood style wealth redistribution would be a good thing, in fact such a thing would cripple the economy without as much benefit going to the bottom and middle classes as one might think.

It's not simply about moving around wealth, it's about smart social planning to maximize the productive capacity of the nation, getting more people to work.


The goal should always be to help them help themselves, not for the government to subsidize families generation after generation. Welfare is a trap, it's not good for the people who are recipients. It freezes them at a certain level of income and lifestyle, and they then are afraid of losing what little they have and they have no motivation to find something better.

Absolutely. Studies have even shown that long time unemployment or living in an area without job opportunities causes populations to lose their work skills preventing them from getting hired even when the chance arises.


I also support the second amendment, even though I myself am not a gun owner or user. I have no problem with anyone here having guns, for example. I think that efforts should be made to keep crazy and dangerous people from getting guns, but a nutjob doesn't need a gun to kill people, a gun just makes it easier for him to do so.

Same here. I don't own any firearms but I believe we have a fundamental right to defend ourselves against those in power. I believe in careful rules so that we don't have anyone and everyone running around shooting each other, but every citizen should be able to have a gun.

Although I am not so enthusiastic about gun-slinger wanna-bes who carry their firearms with them and are thrilled to kill a person for trying to take their precious blu-ray player.


But I support a liberal social agenda-Roe v Wade, Brown v The Board of Education/Civil Rights Act, Miranda v Arizona, etc. I don't think the government has the right to tell women they can't end a pregnancy, I don't think public schools should be having prayer time during school hours, and I think that the police should remind people of their rights when they arrest them.

Yep. totally.


On the other hand, I am not one of those extreme liberals who can't stand to hear the other side of issues. I understand why people oppose legalized abortion, and I respect those who honestly offer alternatives and assistance to women who seek their assistance in lieu of having an abortion. I don't think that public schools should ban all religious speech, especially that which is initiated by students. A valdictorian should be allowed to mention God in her graduation speech, for example.

I love posting here and consume more conservative media than any liberal I know. I understand people have different base assumptions which lead to different logical conclusions. I also agree we can lighten up a bit about a graduation speech or saying "under god" in the pledge of allegiance, it's not hurting anyone.



I don't hate the military, and although I did not support the Iraq War, I did not protest it after it started, out of respect for those who were serving in it. A lot of men in my family served in the military over the years, including my dad (Army/Korea, right after the war ended) and my great uncle (a Sea Bee in WWII). Also, on one side of the family, we can trace our heritage to the Mayflower, and we had a Revolutionary solider in our line of descent, so I am eligible to be a member of the DAR and the Mayflower Society. I'm proud of that heritage.

I disagree with how the military as a system of force is used, but I respect the individuals within the military, especially those who have been in combat.


I mistrust Islam (I am a feminist), but am coworker, colleague and neighbor to many muslims I like. I feel the same way to a lesser degree about Catholicism/catholics, but I recognize that there aren't many catholics who expect me to wear a covering from head to toe to keep their men from lusting after me.

You might call me a feminist as well but I don't mistrust Islam. Frankly I don't know enough about it. I've read some but forming an opinion on a huge belief system with much history and thought put into it takes time. I like Christianity and could even call myself a Christian that is based in Negative Theology.



As you all know, Obama was not my first choice to be president, I was a Hillary voter. I'm planning to vote for a liberal republican for Michigan governor, and crossed over to vote for him in the primary because I liked him, not because of wanting to mess up the GOP primary. I'm a union member, but I have always been highly suspicious of their motives.

Obama was my first choice, I was very active and excited during his campaign, went to several rallies got to see him up close and all that. Some friends of mine shook his hand and were so giddy. Frankly I've been very disappointed with Obama and the Democrat congress. I feel disillusioned knowing that Obama is basically Reagan.

I don't know who I will vote for this november, it may be a third party candidate. Definitely not Republican though.


When I actually had dinner with DU members from the Detroit area, I had absolutely nothing in common with any of them. I had a job, for one thing, and none of them did. I never hooked up with them again.

I have many liberal friends but I live in Texas so I encounter many conservatives. Mostly all nice people, everyone seems to believe they know way more than they do though.

Wei Wu Wei
09-20-2010, 03:42 PM
Sounds like I don't mind the Liberals you speak of, then. Let 'em marry? Hey, if they wanna be as miserable as straight married couples, have at it. :D

In the military? The LAST thing going through a Marine's mind in a fighting hole in Iraq was "Is the dude beside me a pole-smoker?". The main thought was "God, I hope this guy is a good shot."

I think it's just a remnant of the symbolic structure of the military with a shadow of misogyny and homophobia. However, and I may be wrong because I'm not in the military, I think the system as a whole is approaching a "get over it" moment concerning these issues because so many more women have joined and because contemporary masculinity as a gender role within our culture is withstanding the homosexual threat.

Molon Labe
09-21-2010, 09:35 PM
I love posting here and consume more conservative media than any liberal I know. I understand people have different base assumptions which lead to different logical conclusions.

why don't you do yourself a favor and stop consuming media of a particular political slant and consume media that simply tries to tell the truth.

Wei Wu Wei
09-21-2010, 09:38 PM
why don't you do yourself a favor and stop consuming media of a particular political slant and consume media that simply tries to tell the truth.

lol ok point me in the right direction

Rockntractor
09-21-2010, 09:40 PM
lol ok point me in the right direction

Like it would do any good.:rolleyes:

Molon Labe
09-22-2010, 08:05 AM
lol ok point me in the right direction

Start here (http://www.masternewmedia.org/2001/12/31/70_free_alternative_and_independent.htm)

CaughtintheMiddle1990
09-23-2010, 08:42 AM
Leftist, Communist, Socialist, all synonyms in my vocabulary.

It would be a better world if they were all gone.

By force?

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 08:47 AM
By force?

If necessary. Otherwise by exclusion. Socialists, and Communists have one thing in common.

Dictatorship.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
09-23-2010, 08:52 AM
If necessary. Otherwise by exclusion. Socialists, and Communists have one thing in common.

Dictatorship.

How are you going to outlaw an ideology and force people out by force?

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 09:23 AM
How are you going to outlaw an ideology and force people out by force?

I said if necessary.

I never said outlaw it. I said exclusion.

Cut them out of the processes. Tell the bleeding heart liberals to shut up. Deport illegals. Enforce the laws, particularly treason, and that includes those giving aid and comfort to the enemy. (Code Pink for example)

Any socialist for example, who wants "wealth redistribution" can start by being told to donate all they own and all they make "for the common good"..make them practise what they preach.

Greenie socialists can be "invited" to sell their cars, walk everywhere, go off the grid, sell their computers. Ridicule them. Make them a laughingstock.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
09-23-2010, 09:32 AM
If necessary. Otherwise by exclusion. Socialists, and Communists have one thing in common.

Dictatorship.


I said if necessary.

I never said outlaw it. I said exclusion.

Cut them out of the processes. Tell the bleeding heart liberals to shut up. Deport illegals. Enforce the laws, particularly treason, and that includes those giving aid and comfort to the enemy. (Code Pink for example)

Any socialist for example, who wants "wealth redistribution" can start by being told to donate all they own and all they make "for the common good"..make them practise what they preach.

Greenie socialists can be "invited" to sell their cars, walk everywhere, go off the grid, sell their computers. Ridicule them. Make them a laughingstock.

I agree with all of your ideas except the last one.
I've never seen anything wrong with environmentalism.

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 09:34 AM
I've never seen anything wrong with environmentalism.

Oh, I have a major problem with it..especially eco nazis like the ELF, GreenPiss and Sea Shepherd.

Probably heroes of yours.

Odysseus
09-23-2010, 09:50 AM
How are you going to outlaw an ideology and force people out by force?

Ask a Communist. That's their specialty.

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 09:52 AM
Ask a Communist. That's their specialty

*chokes on coffee*

Major...OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D