PDA

View Full Version : Why do many come here illegally?



CaughtintheMiddle1990
09-23-2010, 12:06 AM
First off: On my mother's father's side, I'm only a third generation American. My great grandfather came here from Italy around the turn of the century. He did it legally and got naturalized not longer after he arrived, and learned English (according to my grandmother) by reading the Newspaper daily. He became a success and left a pretty large estate, which included three houses, a wholly owned garage which he rented out, and some other property.

That said, perhaps I'm not filled in on all of the information, but from what I've seen, it doesn't seem THAT hard to become a citizen legally. Yeah, there is a wait but is it not worth it? The citizenship test itself is fucking easy, at least from the videos I've seen. I mean the first part are no brainer questions about yourself and the civics section seems simple enough that even most children with a little practice could memorize it.

So, why do you so many feel compelled to come here illegally? I don't get it honestly. They risk their lives, end up getting deported, or getting shitty jobs, what, for lack of patience?

Rockntractor
09-23-2010, 12:12 AM
First off: On my mother's father's side, I'm only a third generation American. My great grandfather came here from Italy around the turn of the century. He did it legally and got naturalized not longer after he arrived, and learned English (according to my grandmother) by reading the Newspaper daily. He became a success and left a pretty large estate, which included three houses, a wholly owned garage which he rented out, and some other property.

That said, perhaps I'm not filled in on all of the information, but from what I've seen, it doesn't seem THAT hard to become a citizen legally. Yeah, there is a wait but is it not worth it? The citizenship test itself is fucking easy, at least from the videos I've seen. I mean the first part are no brainer questions about yourself and the civics section seems simple enough that even most children with a little practice could memorize it.

So, why do you so many feel compelled to come here illegally? I don't get it honestly. They risk their lives, end up getting deported, or getting shitty jobs, what, for lack of patience?
I have a friend who came from Mexico with his mother legally, I helped him get his citizenship.
He told me a crappy job here is better than the best job their, there are only two classes, the very rich and the very poor. The only thing he misses is that they know how to party.

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 08:50 AM
So, why do you so many feel compelled to come here illegally? I don't get it honestly. They risk their lives, end up getting deported, or getting shitty jobs, what, for lack of patience

Because they can and because the soclalists and bleeding heart liberals encourage it. If the US enforced its real immigration laws, PUBLICALLY, the illegals would stop coming overnight.

All it would take is a few public executions of "coyotes", coupled with publicised deportations of illegals and the message would get out.

Enforce the laws already on the books.

Simple.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
09-23-2010, 08:53 AM
Because they can and because the soclalists and bleeding heart liberals encourage it. If the US enforced its real immigration laws, PUBLICALLY, the illegals would stop coming overnight.

All it would take is a few public executions of "coyotes", coupled with publicised deportations of illegals and the message would get out.

Enforce the laws already on the books.

Simple.

Yeah those are solutions, that's the cure.
I'm asking what caused the disease to begin with.

swirling_vortex
09-23-2010, 09:04 AM
I'd say Rockntractor is correct, the main reason they do that is because of the job and money opportunities. The Mexican Bank screwed up their monetary policy by devaluing the peso quite dramatically and it ended up creating a recession in 1994. I don't much about Mexico's economic history, but I think that also coincided with large deficits as well. Clinton tried to bail them out, but he wasn't able to loan them as much money as he wanted. Then, we got NAFTA, which allowed more movement of Mexican people to the US for employment.

So far, it seems that the Mexican economy never really recovered fully because I don't think their government still takes currency manipulation as a serious problem.

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 09:18 AM
Yeah those are solutions, that's the cure.
I'm asking what caused the disease to begin with.

Failure to enforce laws.
Liberals.
Bleeding heart snivel libertarians.
Communists.
Socialists.
Democrats.
Weak willed politicians.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 10:21 AM
First off: On my mother's father's side, I'm only a third generation American. My great grandfather came here from Italy around the turn of the century. He did it legally and got naturalized not longer after he arrived, and learned English (according to my grandmother) by reading the Newspaper daily. He became a success and left a pretty large estate, which included three houses, a wholly owned garage which he rented out, and some other property.

That said, perhaps I'm not filled in on all of the information, but from what I've seen, it doesn't seem THAT hard to become a citizen legally.

Stop right about there. Yes, it is.

Perhaps you should fill in a bit more of the information, the legal immigration system is atrocious. Thje lines or very long, sometimes years, and the reason people are trying to come here is to feed their families. Yeah they should wait but sometimes your kids' stomachs wont wait.

There's tons of bureaucratic bullshit, lots of red tape, lots of wasted dollars.


Yeah, there is a wait but is it not worth it?

Stop thinking like an overpriviledged middle-class first-world college student.

Sometimes, yes, when you don't have a checking account that your parents fill with cash, it is worth it. Like when it's life or death.



The citizenship test itself is fucking easy, at least from the videos I've seen. I mean the first part are no brainer questions about yourself and the civics section seems simple enough that even most children with a little practice could memorize it.

Its harder than you think. However, if you know English well and take some time to study, it can be easily passed. Keep in mind though that this isn't free, it's like $700 just to take the test and people trying to immigrate out of Mexico are often doing it for financial reasons.



So, why do you so many feel compelled to come here illegally? I don't get it honestly. They risk their lives, end up getting deported, or getting shitty jobs, what, for lack of patience?

No because when you gotta eat you gotta eat. Some of them know that they cannot wait 11 years to get into America. The area of Northern Mexico is plagued with violence, many of them are living in a warzone and trying to escape with their lives before they become beheaded. There are many things that can get you blacklisted, even if you do nothing wrong. As you may know many hispanics often have similar names, and having the same name as someone with a warrant out can keep you out of the country.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 10:23 AM
Yeah those are solutions, that's the cure.
I'm asking what caused the disease to begin with.

The economic style of Mexico is looking more and more like America. They have a lot of money, but it's all concentrated at the very top, the top 1-2% control all of the wealth in Mexico, leaving everyone else in poverty and desperate to sell their labor for next to nothing because they have to.

They cannot live like that, sometimes their lives and the lives in their family are at risk, and our immigration system is broken so they take a risk which only seems unreasonable if you ignore their entire socioeconomic situation.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 10:24 AM
Mexico needs another revolution.

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 10:26 AM
No because when you gotta eat you gotta eat. Some of them know that they cannot wait 11 years to get into America. The area of Northern Mexico is plagued with violence, many of them are living in a warzone and trying to escape with their lives before they become beheaded. There are many things that can get you blacklisted, even if you do nothing wrong. As you may know many hispanics often have similar names, and having the same name as someone with a warrant out can keep you out of the country.

Then I suggest they return home and fix their own problems.


Stop right about there. Yes, it is.

Perhaps you should fill in a bit more of the information, the legal immigration system is atrocious. Thje lines or very long, sometimes years, and the reason people are trying to come here is to feed their families. Yeah they should wait but sometimes your kids' stomachs wont wait.

There's tons of bureaucratic bullshit, lots of red tape, lots of wasted dollars.

Oh?


Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison. Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can be imprisoned for 10 years. Visa violators can be sentenced to six-year terms. Mexicans who help illegal immigrants are considered criminals.


The law also says Mexico (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/mexico/index.html) can deport foreigners who are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," violate Mexican law, are not "physically or mentally healthy" or lack the "necessary funds for their sustenance" and for their dependents.

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 10:27 AM
Mexico needs another revolution.

It isnt our problem if their nation is a fourth world shithole. Fuck 'em.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 10:31 AM
Then I suggest they return home and fix their own problems.

Or they seek a new home to fix their own problems.




Oh?

Oh? Sonnabend thinks he's making a point by pointing out something bad about Mexico's government, who literally no one is defending.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 10:32 AM
It isnt our problem if their nation is a fourth world shithole. Fuck 'em.

Then stop crying about it when they flock over here in droves moron.

Either it affects us, and it is our problem, or shut the fuck up and stop crying about it.

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 10:33 AM
Or they seek a new home to fix their own problems.

By breaking the law of "their new home". What's next, a burglar is just a "poor man trying to feed his family" by breaking into another's home to steal, rob or rape?

If they want to emigrate, let them do so legally.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 10:36 AM
By breaking the law of "their new home". What's next, a burglar is just a "poor man trying to feed his family" by breaking into another's home to steal, rob or rape?

I don't know about raping but if he's breaking into another's home to steal a loaf of bread for his starving family then yeah that's about right he's breaking the law to feed his family.

Sonnabend just got his mind blown by a 3rd grade moral conundrum.




If they want to emigrate, let them do so legally.

I totally agree, let's reform the legal immigration system so they can!

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 10:38 AM
Then stop crying about it when they flock over here in droves moron.

Let them return home and fix their own fucking problems


Either it affcts us, and it is our problem, or shut the fuck up and stop crying about it.

The only problem is that they are coming illegally to the US and it should stop. Those in the US illegally should be deported with a strong warning not to come back.

Mine the desert.

Set up watchtowers.

Razor wire.

Walls.

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 10:39 AM
I don't know about raping but if he's breaking into another's home to steal a loaf of bread for his starving family then yeah that's about right he's breaking the law to feed his family

And he deserves to have his head blown off.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 10:46 AM
Let them return home and fix their own fucking problems

.

The only problem is that they are coming illegally to the US and it should stop. Those in the US illegally should be deported with a strong warning not to come back.

Mine the desert.

Set up watchtowers.

Razor wire.

Walls.

A literal sociopath.

Obama should hire this guy for secret torture ops since he's a literal cement-headed spike-tv-watching reactionary mouth breather without basic human emotional or rational capabilities.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 10:47 AM
"a man steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving family"


And he deserves to have his head blown off.



Yep. get some help buddy.

Rockntractor
09-23-2010, 10:48 AM
A literal sociopath.

Obama should hire this guy for secret torture ops since he's a literal cement-headed spike-tv-watching without basic human emotional or rational capabilities.
Land mines!

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 10:49 AM
Yep. get some help buddy.

Castle Doctrine.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 10:50 AM
Now, as for me, I consider Illegal immigration a problem and I think the solution is the address the core causes of illegal immigration and be careful with the problems that come with reforming the system.

I propose this, as I have before on this forum:




Keeping in mind that many illegals have been here for many years, working, contributing to the economy, paying taxes, and having children (who are American Citizens) I think the following would be a good policy:


1. Impose rules on Mexico aimed at improving their working-poor class conditions. Mexicans wouldn't be flooding into America at such a high rate if they didn't feel an urgent need to. Mexico is a fairly rich nation, newly industrialized, and is only emerging faster as a new world power. However, they have enormous inequality that results in large populations of people living in poverty. The United States should pressure the government to do whatever it needs to do to reduce this dramatic inequality.

It's a supply and demand issue of desire. America offers something that the poor Mexicans desire so much they are willing to go to extremes to get it. If the problem is that America doesn't have enough supply for all of the poor people of Mexico, then we should reduce the demand by strongly encouraging them to increase their own domestic conditions.

2. Funding and reforming the current immigration system. It needs to be faster, smarter, and more efficient. The reason people break into this country illegally rather than legally (which is so much more beneficial and less dangerous/risky) is because the legal route can often be prohibitively excessive in time and red tape. Thousands of people die in awful scenarios in their attempts to get here, only to come to conditions that most of us would consider inhumane. It seems irrational but people who are so willing to pursue their goal of simply doing whatever job is necessary for a little bit of money are perfect workers. This is precisely another reason why immigration reform is never done. It helps business because they are cheap unregulated labor. Make it easier to be a citizen, and they'll take the legal route.

3. For the illegals who are already here:
a. Make them pay a fine, a large fine at that. They broke the law.
b. Place them in the back of the line for citizenship, they can become citizens and get the full benefits of citizenship (voting, services, health care, immigration and travel benefits) but no sooner than anyone who is taking the legal route.
c. Require an English test. Part of the issue isn't just legal or economic, but cultural. They are free to keep and celebrate their culture but to ease their assimilation process they should be able to communicate fluently with American english speakers. I am reluctant to anything that amounts to an "official language" but I do recognize how strong cultural divisions can be detrimental to a cohesive society.


But hey what do I know I'm just some silly liberal.

Maybe if I shotgun a few more beers and shoot a brown guy it'll help my rep around here.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 10:51 AM
CaughtintheMiddle I hope this thread was informative and thought-provoking for you.

Gingersnap
09-23-2010, 10:54 AM
Different people enter illegally for different reasons. In Colorado, a large proportion of illegal aliens are not interested in becoming citizens particularly. They are happy to be Mexicans or Colombians or whatever. They are after an economic short-cut. By working here for 5 - 7 years and sending most of their money out of the country to relatives, they can accumulate a substantial nest egg. They plan to return to their home countries and use that nest egg to start a business, buy land, or buy into an existing business.

These people are not here because everybody in Mexico is starving and their children are all going blind from malnutrition. They are here because the wages are higher and the money they have to pay out in graft for employment, housing, and so on is much lower.

Some other people are here unwillingly. Primarily women and very young boys. They have been tricked by human traffickers and soon find themselves essentially kidnapped for sexual purposes.

Acquiring citizenship for Mexicans is not a huge, long unendurable process (on our side, anyway). Most Mexicans can establish family relationships with U.S. citizens which dramatically shortens the process.

Regardless of the reasons various people have for entering illegally, it's not a sustainable situation. We do not have the resources to continually absorb a functionally illiterate, low skill population at this time. We don't have a good track record for finding employment for our native-born citizens who are uneducated and low skill.

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 10:58 AM
3. For the illegals who are already here:
a. Make them pay a fine, a large fine at that. They broke the law.

If financial reasons are why they entered the US illegally, how will they pay it. Hm? And what do you do with the ones who refuse to pay?

Better idea. Deport them all.


b. Place them in the back of the line for citizenship, they can become citizens and get the full benefits of citizenship (voting, services, health care, immigration and travel benefits) but no sooner than anyone who is taking the legal route.

And have them do it from Mexico.


c. Require an English test. Part of the issue isn't just legal or economic, but cultural. They are free to keep and celebrate their culture but to ease their assimilation process they should be able to communicate fluently with American english speakers.

Swear allegiance to the US and no other nation. Assimilate into US culture or leave. They can take the culture of the nation they want to "make their home"....if they want to be Americans let them be Americans, but I dont see why the US should "adapt to their culture"..if they want "their culture" they can have it..in Mexico.

They are not "Mexican Americans: they are either full blown Americans or they get the fuck out.


I am reluctant to anything that amounts to an "official language" but I do recognize how strong cultural divisions can be detrimental to a cohesive society.

They can start by reading the law that says that it is an offence to enter the US illegally and leave.

Arroyo_Doble
09-23-2010, 10:59 AM
Regardless of the reasons various people have for entering illegally, it's not a sustainable situation. We do not have the resources to continually absorb a functionally illiterate, low skill population at this time. We don't have a good track record for finding employment for our native-born citizens who are uneducated and low skill.

Do you consider them to be primarily unskilled? Before we go past that, would you consider things like masonry an unskilled profession?

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 11:01 AM
Different people enter illegally for different reasons. In Colorado, a large proportion of illegal aliens are not interested in becoming citizens particularly. They are happy to be Mexicans or Colombians or whatever. They are after an economic short-cut. By working here for 5 - 7 years and sending most of their money out of the country to relatives, they can accumulate a substantial nest egg. They plan to return to their home countries and use that nest egg to start a business, buy land, or buy into an existing business.

If it's not out of necessity, but rather out of smart financial planning, wouldn't it be the wiser route to come here legally, get paid more money, be free from having to hide from the police, and have more resources available? They can still send money back and move back to start a business. This is a great idea but doing this illegally seems really stupid.




These people are not here because everybody in Mexico is starving and their children are all going blind from malnutrition. They are here because the wages are higher and the money they have to pay out in graft for employment, housing, and so on is much lower.

This is true, not everyone comes here out of pure poverty. I live in Texas, there are plenty of illegals around and I've known some. Still, it's unfair to suggest that all people coming here illegally are on the brink of starvation, but the reality is that a whole lot of them are.



Some other people are here unwillingly. Primarily women and very young boys. They have been tricked by human traffickers and soon find themselves essentially kidnapped for sexual purposes.

This is becoming a bigger problems with the drug trade exploding and getting involved in using people as drug traffickers.



Acquiring citizenship for Mexicans is not a huge, long unendurable process (on our side, anyway). Most Mexicans can establish family relationships with U.S. citizens which dramatically shortens the process.

marrying-in is another way to go too lol. The citizenship process is a huge long process though.

"You can become an American citizen after holding the Green Card status for 5 years ( 3 years in case of Spouse of US Citizen). You will just need to pass the language and civics test. So the total time to become a US Citizen is 6 to 7 years in this case. Congratulations!!! But wait... If you are NOT a Minor child of US Citizen (below 21 years of age) then it will take you 12 to 28 years to become a US Citizen depending on your country's wait time."
http://www.ehow.com/how_4845246_legally-immigrate-america.html

When you can't eat, waiting isn't an option.



Regardless of the reasons various people have for entering illegally, it's not a sustainable situation. We do not have the resources to continually absorb a functionally illiterate, low skill population at this time. We don't have a good track record for finding employment for our native-born citizens who are uneducated and low skill.

It's great for business, high volume of under-the-table super cheap labor. Still, it needs to be fixed.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 11:03 AM
If financial reasons are why they entered the US illegally, how will they pay it. Hm?

With the money they make doing illegal day labor and under-the-table jobs.


And what do you do with the ones who refuse to pay?

more fines, imprisonment, deportation.



Better idea. Deport them all.

hehehe yeah or better yet let's just NUKE everything south of the border YEE HAW *crushes budweiser can on forehead*

dude you're a knuckle-dragging idiot no one is going to take you seriously.

jediab
09-23-2010, 11:04 AM
Do you consider them to be primarily unskilled? Before we go past that, would you consider things like masonry an unskilled profession?

I think the term "unskilled" or "low skilled" labor mostly means they didn't go to college. I could be wrong though.

As for as masonry workers go, I don't consider them unskilled. They are more like artists. I sure couldn't do what they do without a lot of training.

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 11:04 AM
This is true, not everyone comes here out of pure poverty. I live in Texas, there are plenty of illegals around and I've known some. Still, it's unfair to suggest that all people coming here illegally are on the brink of starvation, but the reality is that a whole lot of them are.

Do your neighbours know that you are happy to let some burglar invade their home? I ask this becuiase you seem to have commented that a burglar "has the right" to enter another's home to steal "to feed his starving kids"

That you dont believe that a homeowner has the right to defend his home from a criminal?

What, are they supposed to just give them what they want?

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 11:06 AM
hehehe yeah or better yet let's just NUKE everything south of the border YEE HAW *crushes budweiser can on forehead*

Nukes arent needed. Force overkill. Proper border defence will do


dude you're a knuckle-dragging idiot no one is going to take you seriously.

This from a bleeding heart liberal.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 11:06 AM
Do your neighbours know that you are happy to let some burglar invade their home? I ask this becuiase you seem to have commented that a burglar "has the right" to enter another's home to steal "to feed his starving kids"

That you dont believe that a homeowner has the right to defend his home from a criminal?

What, are they supposed to just give them what they want?

Start a new thread on ethics / civil rights and we can discuss all these issues but this thread is about illegal immigration.

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 11:07 AM
Start a new thread on ethics / civil rights and we can discuss all these issues but this thread is about illegal immigration."Civil rights?"Are you that fucking stupid? Burglars and thieves have "civil rights"?

Fuck you.

noonwitch
09-23-2010, 11:10 AM
They come here because they have heard the idea of a better life here than wherever they are coming from. Whatever our nation's flaws and faults may be, it's still a better place to live than most of the rest of the world.

Gingersnap
09-23-2010, 11:26 AM
Do you consider them to be primarily unskilled? Before we go past that, would you consider things like masonry an unskilled profession?

The type of masonry that is most common in construction out here is a low skill job. These are not brick buildings - they are just faced with brick. It's funny you should mention this in particular. A friend of mine has a 28 year old son who has had a kind of spotty work history in convenience stores and bars. This summer, a friend got him a place on a work crew and he has been doing masonry for the last 3 months or so. All his training was on the job and he had no apprentice program or previous experience. I'd say that's a low skill job.

Now, he isn't designing decorative driveways or restoring historic buildings but not very many people are these days.

Arroyo_Doble
09-23-2010, 11:34 AM
The type of masonry that is most common in construction out here is a low skill job. These are not brick buildings - they are just faced with brick. It's funny you should mention this in particular. A friend of mine has a 28 year old son who has had a kind of spotty work history in convenience stores and bars. This summer, a friend got him a place on a work crew and he has been doing masonry for the last 3 months or so. All his training was on the job and he had no apprentice program or previous experience. I'd say that's a low skill job.

If that's the case, then you are probably right in your feelings on the skill level. My encounters (and this is Texas ... I think it is more of an agricultural thing in Colorado) tend to be with construction level skills that, for whatever reason, have not been embraced by Americans. It could also be that the subcontractor level cultivates undocumented labor due to its ease and the captive nature of the workers.


Now, he isn't designing decorative driveways or restoring historic buildings but not very many people are these days.

It's funny you should mention that; it was masonry work on my historic home (chimneys) that made me think of that (low) skill. :p

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 11:34 AM
"Civil rights?"Are you that fucking stupid? Burglars and thieves have "civil rights"?

Fuck you.

I was referring collectively to property rights and natural rights like self defense you dimwit.

Odysseus
09-23-2010, 11:35 AM
CaughtintheMiddle I hope this thread was informative and thought-provoking for you.

A tire and a banana would be thought provoking and informative for him.

The problem with our immigration policies is economic, but not in the way that you think. Whenever a commodity is overly regulated, it creates a black market. Think of cigarettes. When the taxes on cigarettes gets high enough, it becomes cost effective to smuggle untaxed smokes. The product itself is legal, and most people see it as a victimless crime, except for the fact that the guys who do it also use the revenues to finance other unsavory activities (a number of terror cells use cigarette smuggling to finance their operations, for example). It is the same for labor.

Labor is a commodity. The regulations that govern labor and increase its cost create incentives for a black market. These are minimum wage laws, excessive workplace regulations and federal insurance mandates. The more that these drive up the cost of legal labor, the greater the attraction of illegal labor, and the greater the profit to be made by using the latter. Laborers are smuggled, their labor is sold for below the "official" price (which is the minimum wage plus benefits and infrastructure to support the employee), the conditions of their employment are kept as cheap as possible and the consequences for engaging in black market labor are minimal, just like the consequences for buying untaxed cigarettes. The areas where you see this most commonly are in unskilled areas, such as entry-level construction or agriculture, where minimum wages raise the cost of labor above the market value of the labor.

If you really want to solve the illegal immigration problem, eliminate the economic incentives for smuggling labor, which, of course, you will not support.

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 11:36 AM
I was referring collectively to property rights and natural rights like self defense you dimwit.

A loaf of bread in my home IS my property.he can come to my door and ask me and I may just give it to him.

He breaks into my home to steal it? In Texas that's usually what happens just before a shotgun blows his head into sushi.

And deservedly so.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 11:44 AM
Some people value human life over property in any instance. Some only in certain instances. Depends on your ethical views, which are relative.

Sonnabend
09-23-2010, 11:50 AM
Some people value human life over property in any instance. Some only in certain instances. Depends on your ethical views, which are relative.

Pathetic :rolleyes:

Gingersnap
09-23-2010, 11:52 AM
If that's the case, then you are probably right in your feelings on the skill level. My encounters (and this is Texas ... I think it is more of an agricultural thing in Colorado) tend to be with construction level skills that, for whatever reason, have not been embraced by Americans. It could also be that the subcontractor level cultivates undocumented labor due to its ease and the captive nature of the workers.



It's funny you should mention that; it was masonry work on my historic home (chimneys) that made me think of that (low) skill. :p

I'd prefer to see employers punished for skirting or skipping the status verification process. And by punished, I mean the hiring officer and the owner or board do a little jail time. We have a shocking number of inner city/blighted suburb residents who have no real education and no real skills. They use the system and turn to crime because they have no experience with any other lifestyle.

Instead of cheap Mexican labor, let's incentivize employers to create job training programs and apprenticeships for our own people in the trades. Let's reward schools that establish (or reestablish) vocational/technical tracks along with a robust life skill program that covers kitchen table math, cooking, simple contracts, child care, social skills for employment, and budgeting.

I wish we would try that first. I'd gladly pay more for lettuce or roofing or whatever if by doing so I was employing Americans and helping to end the inner city poverty dance.

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 11:58 AM
Instead of cheap Mexican labor, let's incentivize employers to create job training programs and apprenticeships for our own people in the trades. Let's reward schools that establish (or reestablish) vocational/technical tracks along with a robust life skill program that covers kitchen table math, cooking, simple contracts, child care, social skills for employment, and budgeting.

These are good ideas. What sort of incentives should there be? After all this sort of stuff is very expensive. The bottom line is still the bottom line, and mexican labor is very cheap.


I wish we would try that first. I'd gladly pay more for lettuce or roofing or whatever if by doing so I was employing Americans and helping to end the inner city poverty dance.

Would you pay more taxes if that money was used towards these goals?

Arroyo_Doble
09-23-2010, 12:03 PM
I'd prefer to see employers punished for skirting or skipping the status verification process. And by punished, I mean the hiring officer and the owner or board do a little jail time. We have a shocking number of inner city/blighted suburb residents who have no real education and no real skills. They use the system and turn to crime because they have no experience with any other lifestyle.

Instead of cheap Mexican labor, let's incentivize employers to create job training programs and apprenticeships for our own people in the trades. Let's reward schools that establish (or reestablish) vocational/technical tracks along with a robust life skill program that covers kitchen table math, cooking, simple contracts, child care, social skills for employment, and budgeting.

I wish we would try that first. I'd gladly pay more for lettuce or roofing or whatever if by doing so I was employing Americans and helping to end the inner city poverty dance.

I will preface this by saying I agree with you almost completely. I am of the same mind on alot of these issues; especially the issue of our education system which thinks everyone should go to college and be a lawyer or doctor.

As to the urban/suburban uneducated problem, there's no incentive for the student to continue through high school. Being undocumented doesn't lend itself to college application or other professions that are above the table. We are working at conflicting purposes where demands are made by legislation like NCLB while our idea of fairness forces us to take all comers into the public system. We press schools (public, anyway) to perform as if all students have the same opportunity while simultaneously ensuring many being accepted do not.

I know of a person who is not in country legally (his father brought him over as an infant). He will go to work for his father's business (construction) and may not even bother to graduate from high school. If he drops out or fails, it is a knock on the public school system.

The funny thing is, the guy would never be asked for his proof of citizenship in Arizona. If you saw him, or talked with him, you would be shocked to learn he is not an American.

Gingersnap
09-23-2010, 01:08 PM
These are good ideas. What sort of incentives should there be? After all this sort of stuff is very expensive. The bottom line is still the bottom line, and mexican labor is very cheap.

Would you pay more taxes if that money was used towards these goals?

Only if the programs were controlled by the states and if I had a high degree of trust that the money would be spent on practical programs that had a measurable outcome and took into consideration the needs of the local labor market and local employers.

Right this minute, I have no such trust since non-college track educational programs and vocational training programs were pretty much abandoned before my time. Certainly I would not want to see the same soft standards, fuzzy outcomes, and whimsical content used for this effort as those things are currently used in regular academic settings.

I'd be more than willing to look at the proposals, though.

swirling_vortex
09-23-2010, 04:55 PM
The economic style of Mexico is looking more and more like America. They have a lot of money, but it's all concentrated at the very top, the top 1-2% control all of the wealth in Mexico, leaving everyone else in poverty and desperate to sell their labor for next to nothing because they have to.

They cannot live like that, sometimes their lives and the lives in their family are at risk, and our immigration system is broken so they take a risk which only seems unreasonable if you ignore their entire socioeconomic situation.
Another blame capitalism rant. Like I said, the Banco de Mexico deliberately used inflation as way of achieving growth and it ended up biting them in the ass. They still have inflation problems up to today. I'd say the problem with Mexico isn't too much wealth, it's too little capital. The issue was further compounded with NAFTA. Hardly a reason for the 90% tax brackets that you so desire.

Also, don't confuse capitalism with mercantilism. This is a common mistake.

http://mexidata.info/id494.html

Then stop crying about it when they flock over here in droves moron.

Either it affects us, and it is our problem, or shut the fuck up and stop crying about it.
Why is it our responsibility to fix other nation's problems? I thought you liberals were all against the USA policing the world. Apparently if it's free money, you're all for it. :rolleyes: The easier fix would be to secure our border and penalize businesses who hire illegal immigrants. Handing Mexico money wouldn't do squat.

I don't know about raping but if he's breaking into another's home to steal a loaf of bread for his starving family then yeah that's about right he's breaking the law to feed his family.

Sonnabend just got his mind blown by a 3rd grade moral conundrum.
I seem to remember in Kindergarten that you shouldn't steal other people's stuff. There is more than one way to get food on the table, it's just not the easiest way. Of course, I'm sure you're letting immigrants free access to your house and refrigerator because after all, they're just starving & feeding their family.

Some people value human life over property in any instance. Some only in certain instances. Depends on your ethical views, which are relative.
And most of the time, the loss of private property coincides with the loss of human life.

Odysseus
09-23-2010, 05:29 PM
Some people value human life over property in any instance. Some only in certain instances. Depends on your ethical views, which are relative.

Life is property. If you can be denied your property by a thief, no matter how much justification he may think that he has, you can be denied the means to sustain your life and the lives of your family. If a thief can steal the bread from your table to feed his family, can he steal your wallet, instead? After all, he can use the money to buy bread, can't he? For that matter, can he steal the medicine from your home if his child is sick? What about if yours is sick, too? Then can you steal it back? What if his child dies, despite the theft of the medicine; can he steal your child to prevent his wife from feeling lonely? Can he steal your organs if his fail? What can you call your own in a world where anyone claiming need can take whatever you have?

Wei Wu Wei
09-23-2010, 07:19 PM
Life is property. If you can be denied your property by a thief, no matter how much justification he may think that he has, you can be denied the means to sustain your life and the lives of your family. If a thief can steal the bread from your table to feed his family, can he steal your wallet, instead? After all, he can use the money to buy bread, can't he? For that matter, can he steal the medicine from your home if his child is sick? What about if yours is sick, too? Then can you steal it back? What if his child dies, despite the theft of the medicine; can he steal your child to prevent his wife from feeling lonely? Can he steal your organs if his fail? What can you call your own in a world where anyone claiming need can take whatever you have?

If anyone can take whatever they need, couldn't i just steal whatever I needed whenever I needed it too?

BadCat
09-23-2010, 07:30 PM
If anyone can take whatever they need, couldn't i just steal whatever I needed whenever I needed it too?

Yeah, and I can shoot you in the face for doing it.
Be sure it's worth it.

swirling_vortex
09-23-2010, 08:05 PM
If anyone can take whatever they need, couldn't i just steal whatever I needed whenever I needed it too?
I hope your being facetious because I really don't think you would even believe that. The loss of property means that the quality of goods and services falls as well. The simplest example is collectivized agriculture. Since everybody owned the land, no one had an incentive to maintain the land to the fullest of their ability, and the food ended up rotting on the field despite the Soviet Union having acres of fertile land.

Apache
09-24-2010, 01:11 PM
I hope your being facetious ...

No, he's not. He's a Marxist through and through...

Odysseus
09-24-2010, 04:57 PM
If anyone can take whatever they need, couldn't i just steal whatever I needed whenever I needed it too?

Either you completely missed the point or you're being deliberately obtuse. Once you allow someone to support themself by theft, you destroy any semblance of ownership. Nothing is safe. How long do you think I will continue to bake bread if you can steal a loaf any time you feel the need? Why should I pay for the wheat if I don't own what I make out of it? Why pay rent on a storefront of someone can rip off whatever I put on the shelves without paying? Why would anyone create anything if it could be taken away on a whim? That's what's wrong with socialism, communism or any other form of collectivism that denies the right to property. Eventually, the productive stop being productive and everybody suffers. Now, maybe you prefer equal starvation to enequal prosperity, but no rational person would.

Arroyo_Doble
09-24-2010, 05:05 PM
Once you allow someone to support themself by theft, you destroy any semblance of ownership. Nothing is safe. How long do you think I will continue to bake bread if you can steal a loaf any time you feel the need? Why should I pay for the wheat if I don't own what I make out of it? Why pay rent on a storefront of someone can rip off whatever I put on the shelves without paying? Why would anyone create anything if it could be taken away on a whim? That's what's wrong with socialism, communism or any other form of collectivism that denies the right to property. Eventually, the productive stop being productive and everybody suffers. Now, maybe you prefer equal starvation to enequal prosperity, but no rational person would.

Not just ownership but order. What was the line from Dr Zhivago? "One man desperate for a bit of fuel is pathetic. Five million people desperate for fuel will destroy a city."

Phillygirl
09-24-2010, 05:35 PM
I notice that the construction crews around here are devoid of any African Americans. Odd. It used to be that there were lots of them. Now, depending on the type of work (brick layers, concrete guys, general construction) you have white (mostly Irish and Italian) and Hispanics. No blacks.

Lager
09-24-2010, 05:50 PM
Stop thinking like an overpriviledged middle-class first-world college student.



Then stop dishing out opinions based on reading headlines over breakfast, from the comfort of your armchair. There may be a myriad of factors in the illegal immigration problem, but there are only so many viable and responsible solutions. You grieve over the plight of the mexicans while you are able to recreationally medicate yourself with drug or alchohol of choice, anytime you desire. Your simplistic view is that we should help fix their problems in their country, or let the poor things cross easily over the border without restrictions. You ignore the obvious problems with those answers, and when it comes to the effect on the communities they will flock to, your answer is they need to get over their fear of brown people.