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Odysseus
09-30-2010, 02:47 PM
This morning, at one of the on-post gyms, I stopped a young man (19 years old) who was walking in wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt. I asked him if he thought that it was appropriate to be wearing that in a US Army facility. He looked at me blankly, while his escort, in PT uniform, said, "It's okay, he's a civilian." I explained that it wasn't okay, and that Che Guevara was a mass murderer and a petty thug, and that wearing that shirt was not an appropriate statement to make on FT Hood. The kid was willing to turn his shirt inside out (and I would have let him), but his friend, who was an NCO, objected. I asked him what he knew about Che. The answer was not much, he'd seen Soderberg's movie, but that was it. I had what our liberal friends like to call a "teachable moment."

I explained to him that Che was Castro's jailer, the man who set up his concentration camps and who ordered the murders of thousands of innocent Cubans, often just after their families had petitioned for their release, and that in doing so, he had filled the same capacity for Castro that Himmler had filled for Hitler. I also told him about Che's antics as a Guerilla fighter in Congo and Bolivia (in which he ended up attacking his own column and got lost in the jungle and nearly starved, due to his own ineptitude), and how he was a laughingstock among real Soldiers. I also explained that Soderberg had taken some liberties with the story, such has giving Che a heroic death in battle, when in fact he had begged to be taken prisoner and tried to bargain for his life. Finally, I pointed out that a lot of Cuban-Americans had joined the army, and that for them, that Che t-shirt was as insulting as a Himmler or Pol Pot T-Shirt would be to the descendents of their victims. When they left, the kid seemed genuinely contrite about wearing an icon without knowing its history. The NCO was irritated about getting an earful from an officer and missing a workout, but I told him that if the kid turned the shirt inside out, he could wear it.

I can't wait for Wilbur, Wei or Arroyo to tell me why it is okay to ban US flag t-shirts in a high school on Cinco de Mayo, but it's okay to wear an icon of an anti-American thug and mass murderer to a US Army facility.

Wei Wu Wei
09-30-2010, 03:00 PM
Some people just thought the cuban revolution was neat

Odysseus
09-30-2010, 03:25 PM
Some people just thought the cuban revolution was neat

I'm sure that some people felt the same way about the Third Reich, Stalin's purges, Mao's Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward and Pol Pot's Killing Fields. They'd be wrong, too.

Wei Wu Wei
09-30-2010, 03:33 PM
some people think it's a cool shirt

AmPat
09-30-2010, 03:37 PM
Some people just thought the cuban revolution was neat

Hundreds of thousands of Cubans who fled to Miami are "thrilled" about it. The others can only lament the demise of freedom on that Island nation.

Bailey
09-30-2010, 03:58 PM
This morning, at one of the on-post gyms, I stopped a young man (19 years old) who was walking in wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt. I asked him if he thought that it was appropriate to be wearing that in a US Army facility. He looked at me blankly, while his escort, in PT uniform, said, "It's okay, he's a civilian." I explained that it wasn't okay, and that Che Guevara was a mass murderer and a petty thug, and that wearing that shirt was not an appropriate statement to make on FT Hood. The kid was willing to turn his shirt inside out (and I would have let him), but his friend, who was an NCO, objected. I asked him what he knew about Che. The answer was not much, he'd seen Soderberg's movie, but that was it. I had what our liberal friends like to call a "teachable moment."

I explained to him that Che was Castro's jailer, the man who set up his concentration camps and who ordered the murders of thousands of innocent Cubans, often just after their families had petitioned for their release, and that in doing so, he had filled the same capacity for Castro that Himmler had filled for Hitler. I also told him about Che's antics as a Guerilla fighter in Congo and Bolivia (in which he ended up attacking his own column and got lost in the jungle and nearly starved, due to his own ineptitude), and how he was a laughingstock among real Soldiers. I also explained that Soderberg had taken some liberties with the story, such has giving Che a heroic death in battle, when in fact he had begged to be taken prisoner and tried to bargain for his life. Finally, I pointed out that a lot of Cuban-Americans had joined the army, and that for them, that Che t-shirt was as insulting as a Himmler or Pol Pot T-Shirt would be to the descendents of their victims. When they left, the kid seemed genuinely contrite about wearing an icon without knowing its history. The NCO was irritated about getting an earful from an officer and missing a workout, but I told him that if the kid turned the shirt inside out, he could wear it.

I can't wait for Wilbur, Wei or Arroyo to tell me why it is okay to ban US flag t-shirts in a high school on Cinco de Mayo, but it's okay to wear an icon of an anti-American thug and mass murderer to a US Army facility.




Major why didnt you make the two do push-ups or grass drills? :D

lacarnut
09-30-2010, 04:24 PM
some people think it's a cool shirt

A liberal punk like you would.

Odysseus
09-30-2010, 04:30 PM
some people think it's a cool shirt
Hugo Boss designed the SS uniforms, so they were obviously much cooler than Che t-shirts, but only an idiot who didn't know what the SS stood for or who agreed with their actions would wear one. The same goes for the Che shirt. Any other inane observations on the subject?

Major why didnt you make the two do push-ups or grass drills? :D
The kid wearing the shirt was a civilian, and I didn't want to dog the NCO, I wanted to educate him. I was trying to teach him about tyranny, not demonstrate it.

Bailey
09-30-2010, 04:33 PM
Hugo Boss designed the SS uniforms, so they were obviously much cooler than Che t-shirts, but only an idiot who didn't know what the SS stood for or who agreed with their actions would wear one. The same goes for the Che shirt. Any other inane observations on the subject?

The kid wearing the shirt was a civilian, and I didn't want to dog the NCO, I wanted to educate him. I was trying to teach him about tyranny, not demonstrate it.



Nothing teaches like pain....

Odysseus
09-30-2010, 04:40 PM
Nothing teaches like pain....

As a general rule, you don't get dropped for push-ups after IET unless you're in a school situation, like OCS, Airborne or Ranger school. If I'd dropped him, or done something equally silly, he'd have walked away talking about what a dick that major was, instead of talking about what an evil bastard Che was.

Bailey
09-30-2010, 05:08 PM
As a general rule, you don't get dropped for push-ups after IET unless you're in a school situation, like OCS, Airborne or Ranger school. If I'd dropped him, or done something equally silly, he'd have walked away talking about what a dick that major was, instead of talking about what an evil bastard Che was.


You're right besides not many officers do that stuff, its best left to the Sargents. :D

Apache
09-30-2010, 05:26 PM
some people think it's a cool shirt

This country doesn't need those "people".

Apache
09-30-2010, 05:26 PM
As a general rule, you don't get dropped for push-ups after IET unless you're in a school situation, like OCS, Airborne or Ranger school. If I'd dropped him, or done something equally silly, he'd have walked away talking about what a dick that major was, instead of talking about what an evil bastard Che was.

Kudos Major, I hope the lesson sticks.

Odysseus
09-30-2010, 05:34 PM
Kudos Major, I hope the lesson sticks.

I think that it did. I was careful not to raise my voice, and even said that if I came off as angry, I apologize, but it was important that he know why what he had on was an issue and that it had the potential to deeply offend a lot of Soldiers in that gym.

I also spoke to the staffers from the gym who had been there and they told me that if I hadn't said something, they would have had to, since the guidelines for MWR facilities don't allow for offensive or controversial clothing.

CueSi
09-30-2010, 05:42 PM
Uh, don't get me started.

I'm always amazed when I see some stupid hipster gay kid wearing a keffayh and a Che shirt. I just want to shove them into Versailles Cafe and have some old grandmother tell him what an idiot he is.

South Florida: Even our trannies are Conservative. :D

~QC

Phillygirl
09-30-2010, 05:43 PM
Good way to handle it. I really hate that those idiots don't know the truth about Che and think it's a "pretty cool" fashion statement.

Zathras
09-30-2010, 07:27 PM
some people think it's a cool shirt

And in Texas they say " Some people just need killing." Them and the people who think that the Che shirt is cool are one in the same.

NJCardFan
09-30-2010, 08:33 PM
some people think it's a cool shirt

And some people think this is cool too:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wq9qXd2nHG4/SZFYvJHNuvI/AAAAAAAAHW8/lhwxSKM1RLo/s400/21.jpg

Does that make it right?

m00
09-30-2010, 09:04 PM
And some people think this is cool too:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wq9qXd2nHG4/SZFYvJHNuvI/AAAAAAAAHW8/lhwxSKM1RLo/s400/21.jpg

Does that make it right?

That's pretty funny tbh :D

Kay
09-30-2010, 11:31 PM
If I'd dropped him, or done something equally silly, he'd have walked away talking
about what a dick that major was, instead of talking about what an evil bastard Che was.

I can see in the way you handled this why they gave you that gold oak leaf.
I bet that young civilian never wears that shirt again. Anywhere.
Everytime he even starts to put it on he'll remember.

AmPat
10-01-2010, 10:41 AM
Good way to handle it. I really hate that those idiots don't know the truth about Che and think it's a "pretty cool" fashion statement.

I can't stand the idiots that realize who Che is and that his likeness is offensive and still wear the shirt.

Odysseus
10-01-2010, 10:52 AM
You're right besides not many officers do that stuff, its best left to the Sargents. :D
Now you know why most enlisted troopies on trial don't avail themselves of their right to have an NCO on the court martial board. They'd much rather have officers decide their cases, because they know that we're an easier audience.

Uh, don't get me started.

I'm always amazed when I see some stupid hipster gay kid wearing a keffayh and a Che shirt. I just want to shove them into Versailles Cafe and have some old grandmother tell him what an idiot he is.

South Florida: Even our trannies are Conservative. :D

~QC
And then toss him into a mosque and let him see their commitment to diversity. :D

I can see in the way you handled this why they gave you that gold oak leaf.
I bet that young civilian never wears that shirt again. Anywhere.
Everytime he even starts to put it on he'll remember.
Thanks. I think that I did the right thing, and I think that he got more out of it than if I'd just had him tossed out.

I can't stand the idiots that realize who Che is and that his likeness is offensive and still wear the shirt.
They're no different from the Illinois Nazis who wanted to march through Skokie. They know what they are representing, but they enjoy the pain that they inflict. Those people need to be stuffed in a sack with a mountain lion and then beaten like a pinata.

Wei Wu Wei
10-01-2010, 11:12 AM
i just got a big ass che tattoo on my chest

Wei Wu Wei
10-01-2010, 11:40 AM
http://i51.tinypic.com/259fqx2.jpg

Odysseus
10-01-2010, 12:54 PM
i just got a big ass che tattoo on my chest
It can't be too big. There isn't that much chest to cover.

http://i51.tinypic.com/259fqx2.jpg
Considering how Che dropped his weapon and begged for his life when he was captured in Bolivia, equating him with chicken makes sense, but I still don't want to see his face.

CueSi
10-01-2010, 03:25 PM
I like the "Che is Dead, get over it" ones. Or "Communism killed 100million people and all I got is this lousy t-shirt" one. :D

~QC

Odysseus
10-01-2010, 04:22 PM
I like the "Che is Dead, get over it" ones. Or "Communism killed 100million people and all I got is this lousy t-shirt" one. :D

~QC

Those are very good. I really like this one. And the shirt, too. :D
http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/model-reagan-k.jpg

Arroyo_Doble
10-01-2010, 04:35 PM
I can't wait for Wilbur, Wei or Arroyo to tell me why it is okay to ban US flag t-shirts in a high school on Cinco de Mayo, but it's okay to wear an icon of an anti-American thug and mass murderer to a US Army facility.

For my part, I always liked to cheez off uptight officers by wearing an Opus shirt.

Odysseus
10-01-2010, 04:40 PM
For my part, I always liked to cheez off uptight officers by wearing an Opus shirt.

Opus doesn't have a body count. Che does.

And somehow, I can't see you on an active army post, unless you're being dragged out after the sit-in.

Arroyo_Doble
10-01-2010, 04:44 PM
Opus doesn't have a body count. Che does.

Uptight knows no body count.


And somehow, I can't see you on an active army post, unless you're being dragged out after the sit-in.

That doesn't surprise me at all. You do seem incredibly limited in your thinking.

Wei Wu Wei
10-01-2010, 05:28 PM
I love how moralistic people get about Che killing a dude or two, but stuff like this happening every single day:

http://anarkismo.net/attachments/aug2010/400_0___10000000_0_0_0_0_0_israeli_soldier_points_ his_gun_at_a_palestinian_child_in_hebron_city__fil e_2007.jpg


doesn't even phase them

Wei Wu Wei
10-01-2010, 05:29 PM
*3...2...1... "IT'S OKAY HIS FINGER ISN'T ON THE TRIGGER"*

- every conservative in the world

CaughtintheMiddle1990
10-01-2010, 05:41 PM
*3...2...1... "IT'S OKAY HIS FINGER ISN'T ON THE TRIGGER"*

- every conservative in the world


Wu Wu, just admit you agree with this already:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH5ixmT83JE

Wei Wu Wei
10-01-2010, 06:02 PM
Wu Wu, just admit you agree with this already:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH5ixmT83JE

Thank you.

obx
10-01-2010, 06:08 PM
You must be kidding? You thank someone for compairing you to that piece of shit Wright?
________
Alaska Dispensaries (http://alaska.dispensaries.org/)

Wei Wu Wei
10-01-2010, 06:10 PM
lol no he gave me the idea i've been looking for

obx
10-01-2010, 06:13 PM
I think you are more Larry Sinclair than Rev. Wright.
________
UPSKIRT TENNIS (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/1139/tennis/videos/1)

Odysseus
10-01-2010, 06:39 PM
Uptight knows no body count.
Wanna bet? Here's the link: http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/che/che-executed.htm


159 CUBANS EXECUTED BY CHE GUEVARA
This list was compiled by Dr. Armando Lago for his upcoming book THE HUMAN COST OF SOCIAL REVOLUTIONS. Each person has been documented by two or more independent sources including books and newspapers.

"Hatred as an element of the struggle; a relentless hatred of the enemy, impelling us above and beyond the natural limitations that man is heir to, and transforming him into an effective, violent, seductive and cold killing machine." Che Guevara

EXECUTED BY CHE IN THE SIERRA MAESTRA MOUNTAINS
ARUSTIDIO
MANUEL CAPITAN
JUAN CHANG
EUTIMIO GUERRA
DIONISIO LEBRIGIO
JUAN LEBRIGIO
"EL NEGRO" NAPOLES
CHICHO OSORIO
TWO "UNIDENTIFIED'' ON APRIL 1957

EXECUTED BY CHE IN SANTA CLARA CITY
RAMON ALBA
JOSE BARROSO
JOAQUIN CASILLAS LUMPUY
FELIX CRUZ
HECTOR MIRABAL
J. MIRABAL
FELIX MONTANO
CORNELIO ROJAS
ALEJANDRO GARCIA OLAYON
ALEJANDRO ROJAS
VILALLA

EXECUTED BY CHE AT LA CABAŅA PRISON IN HAVANA
VILAU ABREU
HUMBERTO AGUIAR
GERMAN AGUIRRE
PELAYO ALAYON
JOSE LUIS ALFARO
PEDRO ALFARO
MARIANO ALONSO
JOSE ALVARO
ANIELLA
MARIO ARES POLO
JOSE RAMON BACALLAO
CEVERINO BARRIOS
EUGENIO BECKER
FRANCISCO BECKER
RAMON BISCET
ROBERTO CALZADILLA
EUFEMIO CANO
JUAN CAPOTE FIALLO
ANTONIO CARRALERO
GERTRUDIS CASTELLANOS
JOSE CASTAŅO QUEVEDO
RAUL CASTAŅO
EUFEMIO CHALA
JOSE CHAMACE
JOSE CHAMIZO
RAUL CLAUSELL
ANGEL CLAUSELL
DEMETRIO CLAUSELL
JOSE CLAUSELL
ELOY CONTRERAS
ROBERTO CORBO
EMILIO CRUZ
JUAN FELIPE CRUZ
ORESTES CRUZ
HUMBERTO CUEVAS
GERARDO CUNI ARANA
ANTONIO DE BECHE
MATEO DELGADO
ARMANDO DELGADO
RAMON DESPAIGNE
JOSE DIAZ CABEZAS
ANTONIO DUARTE
RAMON FERNANDEZ OJEDA
RUDY FERNANDEZ
FERRAN ALFONSO
SALVADOR FERRERO
VICTOR FIGUEREDO
EDUARDO FORTE
UGARDE GALAN
RAFAEL GARCIA MUŅIZ
ADALBERTO GARCIA
ALBERTO GARCIA
JACINTO GARCIA
EVELIO GASPAR
ARMADO GIL
JOSE GONZALEZ MALAGON
EVARISTO GONZALEZ
EZEQUIEL GONZALEZ
SECUNDINO GONZALEZ
RICARDO LUIS GRAU
OSCAR GUERRA
JULIAN HERNANDEZ
FRANCISCO HERNANDEZ LEYVA (father of Pepe Hernandez)
ANTONIO HERNANDEZ
GERARDO HERNANDEZ
OLEGARIO HERNANDEZ
SECUNDINO HERNANDEZ
JESUS INSUA
ENRIQUE IZQUIERDO
OSMIN JORRIN
SILVINO JUNCO
ENRIQUE LAROSA
IGNACIO LAAAPARRA
JESUS LAZO
ARIEL LIMA LAGO
RAUL LOPEZ VIDAL
ARMANDO MAS
ENERLIO MATA
ELPIDIO MEDEROS
JOSE MEDINAS
JOSE MESA
FIDEL MESQUIA
JUAN MILIAN
FRANCISCO MIRABAL
LUIS MIRABAL
ERNESTO MORALES
PEDRO MOREJON
DR. CARLOS MUIŅO
CESAR NECOLARDES ROJAS
VICTOR NECOLARDES ROJAS
JOSE NUŅEZ
VITERBO O'RREILLY
FELIX OVIEDO
MANUEL PANEQUE
PEDRO PEDROSO
RAFAEL PEDROSO
DIEGO PEREZ CUESTA
JUAN PEREZ
DIEGO PEREZ CRELA
JOSE POZO
EMILIO PUEBLA
ALFREDO PUPO
SECUNDINO RAMIREZ
RAMON RAMOS
PABLO RAVELO
RUBEN REY
MARIO RISQUELME
FERNANDO RIVERA
PABLO RIVERA
MANUEL RODRIGUEZ
MARCOS RODRIGUEZ
NEMESIO RODRIGUEZ
PABLO RODRIGUEZ
RICARDO RODRIGUEZ
JOSE SALDARA
PEDRO SANTANA
SERGIO SIERRA
JUAN SILVA
FAUSTO SILVA
ELPIDIO SOLER
JESUS SOSA BLANCO
RENATO SOSA
SERGIO SOSA
PEDRO SOTO
OSCAR SUAREZ
RAFAEL TARRAGO
TEODORO TELLEZ
FRANCISCO TELLEZ
JOSE TIN
FRANCISCO TRAVIESO
LEONARDO TRUJILLO
TRUJILLO
LUPE VALDES
MARCELINO VALDES
ANTONIO VALENTIN
MANUEL VAZQUEZ
VERDECIA
DAMASO ZAYAS
Those are people that he personally pulled the trigger on. It doesn't include those executed under his authority while he was in command of La Cabaņa Fortress prison, the place where “Che helped consolidate the victory of the revolution.” Historians estimate Che "consolidated" the lives of as many as 2,000 people.

A few more quotes from Che on the subject of mass murder in the name of the revolution:


"Crazy with fury I will stain my rifle red while slaughtering any enemy that falls in my hands! My nostrils dilate while savoring the acrid odor of gunpowder and blood. With the deaths of my enemies I prepare my being for the sacred fight and join the triumphant proletariat with a bestial howl!"


"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate."


That doesn't surprise me at all. You do seem incredibly limited in your thinking.
Only to those who don't think at all.

I love how moralistic people get about Che killing a dude or two, but stuff like this happening every single day:
A "dude or two?" Try a few thousand. See above


http://anarkismo.net/attachments/aug2010/400_0___10000000_0_0_0_0_0_israeli_soldier_points_ his_gun_at_a_palestinian_child_in_hebron_city__fil e_2007.jpg
doesn't even phase them
Well, I'd like to know the circumstances of that photo. For example, what's in the kid's hand? I've seen situations where jihadis have given children explosives and told them to go up to the American and give it to him for some candy. It's a trick that they learned from the Viet Cong, and it works because westerners hate the thought of child casualties. So, what's in the kid's hand, what's behind him? Did the Israeli just come around the corner with his weapon up and find the kid? What happened after the picture was taken?

The problem isn't that I'm not fazed by the picture, the problem is that I don't automatically assume that the Israeli pulled the trigger, and that I know that our common enemy uses children by putting them in harm's way for agitprop.

lol no he gave me the idea i've been looking for

I thought that damning America came naturally to you.

m00
10-01-2010, 06:43 PM
I love how moralistic people get about Che killing a dude or two, but stuff like this happening every single day:

http://anarkismo.net/attachments/aug2010/400_0___10000000_0_0_0_0_0_israeli_soldier_points_ his_gun_at_a_palestinian_child_in_hebron_city__fil e_2007.jpg


doesn't even phase them

isn't that just how you hold a rifle when you stand around guarding, or watching, or on duty? I've seen security in international airports hold their rifles like that, titled so the muzzle is pointed slightly at the ground. I mean, its not like he can drop the thing or reduce his attention because some kid wanders up.

Wei Wu Wei
10-01-2010, 06:47 PM
isn't that just how you hold a rifle when you stand around guarding, or watching, or on duty? I've seen security in international airports hold their rifles like that, titled so the muzzle is pointed slightly at the ground. I mean, its not like he can drop the thing or reduce his attention because some kid wanders up.

lol yes he just stands there all day holding the gun up above his elbow and woops some kid ran up

Wei Wu Wei
10-01-2010, 06:47 PM
"the muzzle is pointed slightly at the ground" = the bullet will hit the ground eventually

Odysseus
10-01-2010, 06:50 PM
isn't that just how you hold a rifle when you stand around guarding, or watching, or on duty? I've seen security in international airports hold their rifles like that, titled so the muzzle is pointed at the ground. I mean, its not like he can drop the thing or reduce his attention because some kid wanders up.

Good point. It's at a high port arms. But don't expect Wei to get that.

OTOH, this is an example of someone aiming a weapon directly at a kid, but since the kid is being held by the wrong kind of Cuban (i.e., not a hero, like Che, who,yes, wasn't actually Cuban).

http://www.gaypatriot.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/elian_gonzalez.jpg

Odysseus
10-01-2010, 06:53 PM
lol yes he just stands there all day holding the gun up above his elbow and woops some kid ran up

Actually, that is how you hold a rifle when you have it at a high port arms. The weapon is oriented towards the ground, the stock isn't in the shoulder and the front hand is barely holding the barrel sleeve. A rifle fired from that position would smack the Soldier in the face.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
10-01-2010, 06:54 PM
*3...2...1... "IT'S OKAY HIS FINGER ISN'T ON THE TRIGGER"*

- every conservative in the world


Good point. It's at a high port arms. But don't expect Wei to get that.

OTOH, this is an example of someone aiming a weapon directly at a kid, but since the kid is being held by the wrong kind of Cuban (i.e., not a hero, like Che, who,yes, wasn't actually Cuban).

http://www.gaypatriot.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/elian_gonzalez.jpg

Those pro Capitalist Cubans aren't real Cubans! You know that.
Why even indulge this guy?

Wei Wu Wei
10-01-2010, 06:54 PM
Good point. It's at a high port arms. But don't expect Wei to get that.

OTOH, this is an example of someone aiming a weapon directly at a kid, but since the kid is being held by the wrong kind of Cuban (i.e., not a hero, like Che, who,yes, wasn't actually Cuban).

http://www.gaypatriot.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/elian_gonzalez.jpg

This is during a police siege. Not a guy standing in the open on guard.

I recall people flipping out over that picture too. I'm generally against pointing guns at children, and depending on the context I only get more against it.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
10-01-2010, 06:57 PM
This is during a police siege. Not a guy standing in the open on guard.

I recall people flipping out over that picture too. I'm generally against pointing guns at children, and depending on the context I only get more against it.

Yet people like you would send their parents to die in re-education camps.

m00
10-01-2010, 07:01 PM
lol yes he just stands there all day holding the gun up above his elbow and woops some kid ran up

I did a quick google search for "Soldier guarding"

http://www.army.mil/aps/07/images/photos/Web/4_final.jpg

http://machetera.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/power_-_dart_at__434302gm-a.jpg?w=360&h=240

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080506/080506-afganistan-hmed-310p.hmedium.jpg

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/Soldiers_Guard_Church_in_Iraq%281%29.jpg

too big to link, couldnt figure out how to resize: http://www.ng.mil/news/archives/2007/10/images/101107-warrior-full.jpg

You notice this sort of thing if you travel a lot internationally. Yes, from what I've seen in countries where the military is used to guard public places, this is how soldiers stand around and guard shit. Notice the position of the finger in all the above pictures, and compare it to the picture you linked.

Odysseus
10-01-2010, 07:01 PM
This is during a police siege. Not a guy standing in the open on guard.

I recall people flipping out over that picture too. I'm generally against pointing guns at children, and depending on the context I only get more against it.

A police siege of law-abiding people, whose home they invaded in the middle of the night, and whose only "crime" was housing a child who was a relative during a custody hearing. But, as Janet Reno demonstrated at Waco, shooting at children is justified when you're dealing with the wrong kind of people. Breaking down doors of American citizens to kidnap children is an act of tyranny. Sending a child up to an armed Soldier for a photo op is an act of cowardice. Using that photo is dishonest.

But, let's get back on topic. Che: You said that he only killed "a dude or two." Did you notice the by-name list of his personal victims? Or the body count from La Cabana Prison? Do you still stand by your minimization of Che's crimes?

Do you still consider his picture to be an appropriate image to wear in a place where the people who train to go to war against the kind of tyranny that he espoused work out? Do you think that he was evil? Or do you subscribe to the "cool dude" BS and ignore his sadism and bloodthirstyness because you like his politics?

m00
10-01-2010, 07:13 PM
I'll make it easy for you Wei Wei

http://anarkismo.net/attachments/aug2010/400_0___10000000_0_0_0_0_0_israeli_soldier_points_ his_gun_at_a_palestinian_child_in_hebron_city__fil e_2007.jpg

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/Soldiers_Guard_Church_in_Iraq%281%29.jpg

Look at the picture on the top. Now look at the picture at the bottom. Imagine if some kid walked towards the soldier on the bottom and he tilted his head down a bit. Now imagine another person walking in front of his right arm, and obscuring the awkward (read: un-fire-able) position he's holding the rifle. Now imagine the photograph from a slightly different angle, so there is the optical illusion the gun is pointing out the child. You would get the photo on the top!

Wow, what are the odds a journalist would just *happen* to take a photo at just that right moment...

Well, if you are out looking to engineer photo ops to make Israelis look bad, I'd say the odds are pretty high if you wait long enough.

In fact if you look closely at the photo on the top you notice 1) the position of the finger (not on the trigger) and 2) how his shoulder his positioned. If he were *actually* pointing the gun at the kid, his shoulder and elbow would be elevated. you can see how the butt of the rifle in the top photo isn't braced against his shoulder - the soldier in the top photo cannot fire his rifle in that position! It's a bit hard to see because the other kid is in the way, but that's kind of the point - the journalist who took the top photo had a political agenda to mis-convey what the image represents. Apparently he did a good job, because you bought it (but I guess you were already inclined to).

Odysseus
10-01-2010, 07:20 PM
I'll make it easy for you Wei Wei

http://anarkismo.net/attachments/aug2010/400_0___10000000_0_0_0_0_0_israeli_soldier_points_ his_gun_at_a_palestinian_child_in_hebron_city__fil e_2007.jpg

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/Soldiers_Guard_Church_in_Iraq%281%29.jpg

Look at the picture on the top. Now look at the picture at the bottom. Imagine if some kid walked towards the soldier on the bottom and he tilted his head down a bit. Now imagine another person walking in front of his right arm, and obscuring the awkward (read: un-fire-able) position he's holding the rifle. Now imagine the photograph from a slightly different angle, so there is the optical illusion the gun is pointing out the child. You would get the photo on the top!

Wow, what are the odds a journalist would just *happen* to take a photo at just that right moment...

Well, if you are out looking to engineer photo ops to make Israelis look bad, I'd say the odds are pretty high if you wait long enough.

In fact if you look closely at the photo on the top you notice 1) the position of the finger (not on the trigger) and 2) how his shoulder his positioned. If he were *actually* pointing the gun at the kid, his shoulder and elbow would be elevated. It's hard to see because the other kid is in the way, but that's kind of the point - the journalist who took the top photo had a political agenda to mis-convey what the image represents.

That's okay. Wei will keep posting it and telling us what brutal bastards the Israelis are, and how we ought to lighten up on poor Che. Being a leftist means never admitting error. Ever.

m00
10-01-2010, 07:29 PM
That's okay. Wei will keep posting it and telling us what brutal bastards the Israelis are, and how we ought to lighten up on poor Che. Being a leftist means never admitting error. Ever.

You know, the funny thing is I don't even care if people wear Che shirts. Of course, if you do it at an Army Gym expect to be asked to turn it inside out... that's just being provocative. Probably same goes for anything overtly political or contentious. I mean, if Wei made an "it's paid for by taxpayer dollars, therefor.. free speech!" argument I wouldn't be hostile to that line of reasoning. I disagree, but something like that would at least qualify as an argument.

I don't know what this is: "I love how moralistic people get about Che killing a dude or two, but stuff like this happening every single day:"


What does that even mean? It's okay to wear provocative clothing into a military area because Jews murder Palestinian children? What?

Sonnabend
10-01-2010, 08:52 PM
"When carrying a rifle, loaded or not, carry the weapon at either high or low port arms, trigger finger parallel to the rifle barrel, and clear of the trigger guard. When reloading or removing the magazine, place the rifle in low port arms or in vertical position, finger in left hand parallel position, removing the magazine with the right hand."

"In transit when carrying a firearm, the elbow cradle or single hand low port arms is preferable. Check that the rifle is decocked, and before transit, ensure the chamber is clear. At no time, unless you are preparing to fire, EVER have a cartridge in the chamber and the bolt closed."

"You will treat a firearm as loaded, 24 hours a day, seven days a week"

"If you are carrying a semi auto or automatic weapon with magazine in situ, ensure a/ the bolt is close or the safety on, b/ finger is always held in parallel position and c/ the muzzle not colocated with any person or object"

- my range supervisor.

Sonnabend
10-01-2010, 08:58 PM
http://www.gaypatriot.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/elian_gonzalez.jpg[

Note the finger position. This officer was at no time prepared to fire his weapon, the selector is set at full auto (the selector is directly above his finger). In this position, there is no threat since the officer is a/ armed but SPECIFICALLY in procedure, has his weapon in "safe transit carry" mode.

He cannot fire at this range, nor would he, since the blowback would be catastrophic.

Then again Wei, you know jack shit about firearms.

Big Guy
10-01-2010, 10:33 PM
some people think it's a cool shirt

I think you are a PIECE OF SHIT.

NJCardFan
10-02-2010, 01:16 AM
"When carrying a rifle, loaded or not, carry the weapon at either high or low port arms, trigger finger parallel to the rifle barrel, and clear of the trigger guard. When reloading or removing the magazine, place the rifle in low port arms or in vertical position, finger in left hand parallel position, removing the magazine with the right hand."

"In transit when carrying a firearm, the elbow cradle or single hand low port arms is preferable. Check that the rifle is decocked, and before transit, ensure the chamber is clear. At no time, unless you are preparing to fire, EVER have a cartridge in the chamber and the bolt closed."

"You will treat a firearm as loaded, 24 hours a day, seven days a week"

"If you are carrying a semi auto or automatic weapon with magazine in situ, ensure a/ the bolt is close or the safety on, b/ finger is always held in parallel position and c/ the muzzle not colocated with any person or object"

- my range supervisor.

Ours is a little more simple. We use what's called the Laser Rule which means never point your weapon at anything you don't intend to destroy.

AmPat
10-02-2010, 02:52 AM
lol yes he just stands there all day holding the gun up above his elbow and woops some kid ran up

He's patrolling moron. Stick to remarks about which you know something. May I suggest "pooh flinging techniques of captive monkees?":rolleyes:

AmPat
10-02-2010, 02:55 AM
Those are very good. I really like this one. And the shirt, too. :D
http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/model-reagan-k.jpg

I'll take one in blonde,,er, uh,,, red. My bad.;)

Kay
10-02-2010, 07:58 AM
I'll take one in blonde,,er, uh,,, red. My bad.;)

Why is it no one ever wants a grey haired woman.
I abhor this.

Sonnabend
10-02-2010, 08:22 AM
Ours is a little more simple. We use what's called the Laser Rule which means never point your weapon at anything you don't intend to destroy.

The above was part of my initial training in range safety procedures :D

Odysseus
10-02-2010, 10:57 AM
Why is it no one ever wants a grey haired woman.
I abhor this.
The visual cues that appeal to men relate to fertility, Fertility is a function of youth. Sorry.

The above was part of my initial training in range safety procedures :D
Range and combat rules are very different. You'd never carry a weapon at port arms on a range, you'd orient it downrange, but there is no downrange in combat.

Kay
10-02-2010, 11:07 AM
The visual cues that appeal to men relate to fertility,
Fertility is a function of youth. Sorry.

I suppose that's true and in a similar way why older men appeal to women.
The visual cues that women look for are maturity, stability, experienced
protector and provider. Traits that come with age.

Hence the evolution of the couger out of this......;)

Odysseus
10-02-2010, 11:25 AM
I suppose that's true and in a similar way why older men appeal to women.
The visual cues that women look for are maturity, stability, experienced
protector and provider. Traits that come with age.

Hence the evolution of the couger out of this......;)

So, the cougar evolved from the sex kitten? :D