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wilbur
10-04-2010, 09:21 AM
I just love this....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/8030672/US-atheists-know-more-about-religion-than-believers-quiz-finds.html



Non-believers and agnostics scored an average of 20.9 out of 32 in a quiz about different faiths, while religious respondents averaged 16.5.

People in the south of the US, which is renowned for its religious fervour, performed worse than those elsewhere. Oh snap!

....

Almost half of Catholics surveyed did not know that their church teaches that the bread and wine used in Communion actually become the body and blood of Christ. :eek:

A majority of Protestants, meanwhile, could not identify Martin Luther as the driving force behind the Protestant Reformation. :eek:


I'd have to say that most atheists I know have been classic "seekers" at some point in their life, or they became dissatisfied with the explanations of their religions offered. As a consequence, they endeavored to learn about different belief systems and why people believe what they do.

At least the Mormons did well..

Rockntractor
10-04-2010, 09:24 AM
I just love this....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/8030672/US-atheists-know-more-about-religion-than-believers-quiz-finds.html
I can see this is of great concern to you.:rolleyes:

fettpett
10-04-2010, 09:42 AM
I would like to see how the questions were phrased. However I am not surprised as many "Christians" in the US are CINO (Christians in Name Only) and are w/e religion/denomination because their parents were.

wilbur
10-04-2010, 09:47 AM
I would like to see how the questions were phrased. However I am not surprised as many "Christians" in the US are CINO (Christians in Name Only) and are w/e religion/denomination because their parents were.

Here's a much more detailed analysis...

http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-Practices/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey.aspx


And this PDF has all the questions in Appendix B:

http://pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Belief_and_Practices/religious-knowledge-topline.pdf

fettpett
10-04-2010, 10:24 AM
most of those questions are pretty easy the only one I had to look up for sure was about Maimonides as I've never heard of him.

also of interest was that most of the respondents were Liberal, Democrats, and made under $40k a year, with no kids.

Wei Wu Wei
10-04-2010, 10:47 AM
I would like to see how the questions were phrased. However I am not surprised as many "Christians" in the US are CINO (Christians in Name Only) and are w/e religion/denomination because their parents were.

lol CINO, our entire country is CINO

NJCardFan
10-04-2010, 11:14 AM
You know what I find funny? If atheists like Wilbur and Bill Mahr are so offended by religion, why not just ignore it? Why spend so much time bashing it when you can simply ignore it's there? I think it comes down to the old saying, "methinks he doth protests too much." I think people like you want to believe that there is no God but know deep down that you are wrong so you start these inane arguments in hopes of convincing yourselves.

FlaGator
10-04-2010, 11:19 AM
wilbur, you seem to be the exception to this rule since every post you make on the subject evidences an extreme lack of knowledge.

On the upside though, your views are amusing. If I keep reading, sooner or later you're bound to get something right. Even a blind squirrel stumbles upon an acorn once in awhile.

Wei Wu Wei
10-04-2010, 11:21 AM
You know what I find funny? If atheists like Wilbur and Bill Mahr are so offended by religion, why not just ignore it? Why spend so much time bashing it when you can simply ignore it's there? I think it comes down to the old saying, "methinks he doth protests too much." I think people like you want to believe that there is no God but know deep down that you are wrong so you start these inane arguments in hopes of convincing yourselves.

That's....a...reallly...good...question...


Yeah you know I've always laughed at people who attend "Atheist Clubs" and other sorts of things, that's so dumb, whats there to do at a club like that, everyone shows up and meetings over.

Bill Maher is a child when it comes to religion. I watch his show and saw his damn movie neither were that interesting or provocative on the topic.


Dawkins and Harris and the others too, terrible.

FlaGator
10-04-2010, 11:29 AM
That's....a...reallly...good...question...


Yeah you know I've always laughed at people who attend "Atheist Clubs" and other sorts of things, that's so dumb, whats there to do at a club like that, everyone shows up and meetings over.

Bill Maher is a child when it comes to religion. I watch his show and saw his damn movie neither were that interesting or provocative on the topic.


Dawkins and Harris and the others too, terrible.

wilbur claims to have retired from CU but I guess he and Brett Farve have the same idea of retirement. wilbur's extreme obsession with all things Christian have been well documented. wilbur sees the hint of something relating to Christianity in the title of a thread and he just has to respond. Even his self imposed retirement could not hold him back once his obsession is awakened.

wilbur
10-04-2010, 12:24 PM
You know what I find funny? If atheists like Wilbur and Bill Mahr are so offended by religion, why not just ignore it? Why spend so much time bashing it when you can simply ignore it's there? I think it comes down to the old saying, "methinks he doth protests too much." I think people like you want to believe that there is no God but know deep down that you are wrong so you start these inane arguments in hopes of convincing yourselves.

Well, gee... if you're so offended by liberalism, why not just ignore it? Why flock to a message board where you bash it, when you can simply ignore that its there. I think people like you want to believe that liberalism is the way and know deep down that you are wrong so you start these inane arguments in hopes of convincing yourselves.

The answer is obvious.

Calypso Jones
10-04-2010, 12:28 PM
Study is bogus on SO many levels. One. NYT and the Pew Forum. WHAT do either of them care at all about religion other than to bash christians over the head with it. 2. Only directed at Americans. 3. Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims said to be such a small percentage that results for them were ignored. yeah.
4. These are not RELIGIOUS questions but demographically inclined questions so the title is Misleading.
5. Another propaganda piece for biblically ignorant atheists (agnostics/mormons) to glom onto for esteem building. 6. Total load of BS.

wilbur
10-04-2010, 12:33 PM
Study is bogus on SO many levels. One. NYT and the Pew Forum. WHAT do either of them care at all about religion other than to bash christians over the head with it.


Wha?! Since when is Pew anti-Christian :confused:



2. Only directed at Americans.


So? That's what the thread title said.



3. Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims said to be such a small percentage that results for them were ignored. yeah.


Which means they didn't have a statistically significant sample, so the results would be meaningless.



4. These are not RELIGIOUS questions but demographically inclined questions so the title is Misleading.


They test one's basic knowledge of various religions, I don't see why that is not religious.



5. Another propaganda piece for biblically ignorant atheists (agnostics/mormons) to glom onto for esteem building. 6. Total load of BS.

Just interesting food for thought.

FlaGator
10-04-2010, 12:38 PM
Wha?! Since when is Pew anti-Christian :confused:



So? That's what the thread title said.



Which means they didn't have a statistically significant sample, so the results would be meaningless.



They test one's basic knowledge of various religions, I don't see why that is not religious.



Just interesting food for thought.

Dude, if it is any consolation... your sig line is pretty funny.

wilbur
10-04-2010, 12:38 PM
wilbur claims to have retired from CU but I guess he and Brett Farve have the same idea of retirement. wilbur's extreme obsession with all things Christian have been well documented. wilbur sees the hint of something relating to Christianity in the title of a thread and he just has to respond. Even his self imposed retirement could not hold him back once his obsession is awakened.

Actually, both the threads that compelled me to break retirement were both unabashed, vitriolic personal attacks against atheists.

FlaGator
10-04-2010, 12:44 PM
Actually, both the threads that compelled me to break retirement were both unabashed, vitriolic personal attacks against atheists.

I didn't realize that there was personal attacks against atheists, but I don't read every thread and every message on this site so I'll just take your word for it.

Wei Wu Wei
10-04-2010, 01:14 PM
I didn't realize that there was personal attacks against atheists, but I don't read every thread and every message on this site so I'll just take your word for it.

You've been at this site long enough.

You know how people post here. You know what kind of people post here.

Apache
10-04-2010, 01:31 PM
Well, gee... if you're so offended by liberalism, why not just ignore it? Why flock to a message board where you bash it, when you can simply ignore that its there. I think people like you want to believe that liberalism is the way and know deep down that you are wrong so you start these inane arguments in hopes of convincing yourselves.

The answer is obvious.

"Liberalism" is a mental disorder with an agenda of destruction for our way of life...

wilbur
10-04-2010, 02:33 PM
Dude, if it is any consolation... your sig line is pretty funny.

Truth is always funnier than fiction!

noonwitch
10-04-2010, 03:05 PM
You know what I find funny? If atheists like Wilbur and Bill Mahr are so offended by religion, why not just ignore it? Why spend so much time bashing it when you can simply ignore it's there? I think it comes down to the old saying, "methinks he doth protests too much." I think people like you want to believe that there is no God but know deep down that you are wrong so you start these inane arguments in hopes of convincing yourselves.



I still think that atheists who are hostile toward christianity want to believe in something. For some reason, at some point in their lives, they did believe and for some reason, they feel that either God did not come through for them (Grandma died anyway, even though they prayed for her to get better).


I'm someone who had faith as a kid, and chucked it in college. My reasons for disbelief were how can God stand by and let people suffer-me, others, poor people, war victims, kids with cancer, whatever. I chose another faith, Wicca, because it was feminist and it was about empowerment.

I didn't come back because Wicca failed me, though, it didn't really work one way or another, other than one jerk I once worked for ended up with a bad case of impotence. It was probably the Rogaine, though, not the nightly envisioning of sticking a pin in the crotch of a voodoo doll (I didn't ever actually stick pins in voodoo dolls). I found I missed Jesus being in my life. It's really hard to explain that to an atheist, though. They want objective proof of God's existence when there is none.

Wei Wu Wei
10-04-2010, 03:15 PM
If you want a good case for the strong relationship between Christianity and Rationality, check G.K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy

it's free online, he argues for God as the one exception to rationality which actually (as the exception) grounds the rule of Reason.

FlaGator
10-04-2010, 05:30 PM
R. C. Sproul's 'Defending Your Faith' makes and excellent argument for the rationality of a Creator God. There is an audio series of lectures based on this book at SermonAudio.com

MrsSmith
10-04-2010, 06:43 PM
Here's a much more detailed analysis...

http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-Practices/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey.aspx


And this PDF has all the questions in Appendix B:

http://pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Belief_and_Practices/religious-knowledge-topline.pdf

Thanks. You made the effort to include the information that evangelical Christians answered more questions about Christianity and the bible correctly than did atheists and agnostics (http://pewforum.org/uploadedImages/Topics/Belief_and_Practices/religious-knowledge-02.png)

I also really laughed at this line:
Having taken a religion course in college is also strongly associated with higher religious knowledge. Imagine that...if you write the questions in a "religious" poll based on the stuff taught in a college religion class, guess which group of people will score the best. ROFL!!! But it's a VERY important poll, regardless of the misleading questions and misleading articles written. :D:D

m00
10-04-2010, 08:26 PM
I also really laughed at this line: Imagine that...if you write the questions in a "religious" poll based on the stuff taught in a college religion class, guess which group of people will score the best. ROFL!!! But it's a VERY important poll, regardless of the misleading questions and misleading articles written. :D:D

I can imagine Peter administering a "religion test" at the pearly gates...

wilbur
10-04-2010, 08:44 PM
Thanks. You made the effort to include the information that evangelical Christians answered more questions about Christianity and the bible correctly than did atheists and agnostics (http://pewforum.org/uploadedImages/Topics/Belief_and_Practices/religious-knowledge-02.png)


In that particular poll analysis the gap was very small, with a mere .6 of a question separating atheist/agnostics from evangelicals.

Then look at the gap between knowledge of world religions... where atheists/agnostics are beating evangelicals healthily. This might reflect very poorly upon evangelicals, depending on the reasons why... after all, you can't have a very strong claim to know the truth when you don't even bother to examine alternate theories.



I also really laughed at this line: Imagine that...if you write the questions in a "religious" poll based on the stuff taught in a college religion class, guess which group of people will score the best. ROFL!!! But it's a VERY important poll, regardless of the misleading questions and misleading articles written. :D:D

It actually said that college education was the single best indicator of success on the surveys... not 'having taken a world religions course". We can be sure that only a small subset of college students polled have taken a world religions course.

Zathras
10-04-2010, 08:58 PM
You know what I find funny? If atheists like Wilbur and Bill Mahr are so offended by religion, why not just ignore it? Why spend so much time bashing it when you can simply ignore it's there? I think it comes down to the old saying, "methinks he doth protests too much." I think people like you want to believe that there is no God but know deep down that you are wrong so you start these inane arguments in hopes of convincing yourselves.

It's because, to religion bashers like Wilbur, Atheism IS their religion. They are more zealous in their dealings with other people with their Atheism than the most fundimental Christian or Muslim. It's too bad they either are ignorant of this fact or are ignoring it on purpose.

Big Guy
10-04-2010, 09:28 PM
Wilbur and Wee Wee, as far as the Bible goes I can not quote much. After all I am a simpleton with little education and I can barely read (I mean cypher letters).

If you think that the ability to quote scripture makes one a better Christian you are sadly mistaken. I am a Christian who rarely attends church. I can not quote the Bible, mostly because I have never read it in it's entirety. I do read through it when I find myself lost and it does give me comfort and guidance.

Just because an Atheist or Non-Christian reads the Bible as "Fiction" or a "History" book and a person like me just tries to live, using it for guidance and comfort does not mean that people like me are any less Christian than anyone else.

I have no issue with people who are non-believers, I only hope that you seek forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as your savior before you meet God. And you as Non-Believers should have no issue with Christians. You have your beliefs and we have ours.

fettpett
10-04-2010, 09:36 PM
I still think that atheists who are hostile toward christianity want to believe in something. For some reason, at some point in their lives, they did believe and for some reason, they feel that either God did not come through for them (Grandma died anyway, even though they prayed for her to get better).

This is very true..I know many Adventist Pastor kids and kids of pretty conservative (lifestyle not political) parents that kick what their parents believed either entirely or are extremely liberal in their belief structure. Clifford Goldstein wrote a great piece about it


In short, my dad’s a liberal in what I’ve always understood to be the classic sense of the term, that is being irrationally tolerant of beliefs or actions you don’t believe or even like, as long as those beliefs and actions don’t hurt others. That’s liberalism, kind of in the John Stuart Mill vein. If Nietzsche said that the last Christian died on a cross, then maybe the last liberal I know will die when my dad does. It certainly won’t be when the last SDA on left does. And that’s because though there are leftists in the SDA church, there aren’t many liberals, at least not in the best sense of the word.

...Take, for instance, their attitude toward the Adventist Theological Society, the “notorious ATS .” I am not, nor have ever been, a member of ATS , and though I don’t know all that it stands for, I assume it’s just basic Adventism at least as understood by the vast majority of church members worldwide. How, then, does one explain the left’s “going postal” over the formation of the ATS ? Shouldn’t liberal scholars, in their vaunted openness, have been happy to welcome another group seeking to express its interpretation of our faith in the marketplace of ideas? Isn’t that what being liberal is all about? Of course it is, but we’re not talking about liberals here; we’re talking about leftists–a big difference, one that explains why ATS faced an endless onslaught of attacks, name-calling, calumny and threats that, though apparently tempered over time, still exists.
http://www.atoday.com/magazine/2005/11/hypocrisy-adventist-left

The parts that are boded pertain to this discussion the rest of the article is kinda internal SDA stuff and Goldstein's personal experiences. The attitude is the same between anti-Christan Leftist Atheist and Christians in general. A true Liberal in the traditional sense will let people be and live the way they feel is right, a Leftist will relentlessly attack what they see as a threat to their own belief set.




It actually said that college education was the single best indicator of success on the surveys... not 'having taken a world religions course". We can be sure that only a small subset of college students polled have taken a world religions course.

that's because the only campus that they will find a true religion class is at a private Religious College where they are mandatory

Wei Wu Wei
10-05-2010, 03:41 AM
Wilbur and Wee Wee, as far as the Bible goes I can not quote much. After all I am a simpleton with little education and I can barely read (I mean cypher letters).

If you think that the ability to quote scripture makes one a better Christian you are sadly mistaken. I am a Christian who rarely attends church. I can not quote the Bible, mostly because I have never read it in it's entirety. I do read through it when I find myself lost and it does give me comfort and guidance.

Just because an Atheist or Non-Christian reads the Bible as "Fiction" or a "History" book and a person like me just tries to live, using it for guidance and comfort does not mean that people like me are any less Christian than anyone else.

I have no issue with people who are non-believers, I only hope that you seek forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as your savior before you meet God. And you as Non-Believers should have no issue with Christians. You have your beliefs and we have ours.
:)

This is good to read.

Reading this, I think you got the right idea. Maybe more right than mine at least.

Sonnabend
10-05-2010, 07:16 AM
You have your beliefs and we have ours.

Except that creeps like Wei shove their crap down others throats, whether they want it or not.

noonwitch
10-05-2010, 08:52 AM
that's because the only campus that they will find a true religion class is at a private Religious College where they are mandatory




LOL.

I actually had a pretty good class about Christianity at WMU in the 80s. The prof was a total liberal, a retired, but ordained PBUSA pastor. He knew his church history, however, and loved to get big classwide discussions going. He particularly liked pitting the catholics and baptists against each other. A lot of students who were christians found his class to be really challenging to their faith (especially catholics and baptists:)) . I had already left my teenaged faith behind me when I took that class, however.

He wouldn't tell us what his religious backround was until right before finals. We all were speculating that he was a lapsed catholic.

MrsSmith
10-05-2010, 07:58 PM
In that particular poll analysis the gap was very small, with a mere .6 of a question separating atheist/agnostics from evangelicals.

Then look at the gap between knowledge of world religions... where atheists/agnostics are beating evangelicals healthily. This might reflect very poorly upon evangelicals, depending on the reasons why... after all, you can't have a very strong claim to know the truth when you don't even bother to examine alternate theories.
Actually, if you know the truth, examining false theories is a complete waste of time.



It actually said that college education was the single best indicator of success on the surveys... not 'having taken a world religions course". We can be sure that only a small subset of college students polled have taken a world religions course.

No, it actually said:

Having taken a religion course in college is also strongly associated with higher religious knowledge. Your reading skills are as impressive as always. :D:D

wilbur
10-06-2010, 08:20 AM
Actually, if you know the truth, examining false theories is a complete waste of time.

WOW.

The point is, you can't be reasonably sure that you have the truth unless you have examined and ruled out competing explanations.



No, it actually said: Your reading skills are as impressive as always. :D:D

No... it actually says this:



Data from the survey indicate that educational attainment – how much schooling an individual has completed – is the single best predictor of religious knowledge. College graduates get nearly eight more questions right on average than do people with a high school education or less. Having taken a religion course in college is also strongly associated with higher religious knowledge.


Which says that simply by virtue of the fact that one is a college graduate - religion course or not - one is likely to know much more about religion.

CueSi
10-06-2010, 02:16 PM
Wilbur and Wee Wee, as far as the Bible goes I can not quote much. After all I am a simpleton with little education and I can barely read (I mean cypher letters).

If you think that the ability to quote scripture makes one a better Christian you are sadly mistaken. I am a Christian who rarely attends church. I can not quote the Bible, mostly because I have never read it in it's entirety. I do read through it when I find myself lost and it does give me comfort and guidance.

Just because an Atheist or Non-Christian reads the Bible as "Fiction" or a "History" book and a person like me just tries to live, using it for guidance and comfort does not mean that people like me are any less Christian than anyone else.

I have no issue with people who are non-believers, I only hope that you seek forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as your savior before you meet God. And you as Non-Believers should have no issue with Christians. You have your beliefs and we have ours.


Can we end the thread on this? It is made of win. :)

~QC

MrsSmith
10-06-2010, 06:01 PM
WOW.

The point is, you can't be reasonably sure that you have the truth unless you have examined and ruled out competing explanations.



No... it actually says this:



Data from the survey indicate that educational attainment – how much schooling an individual has completed – is the single best predictor of religious knowledge. College graduates get nearly eight more questions right on average than do people with a high school education or less. Having taken a religion course in college is also strongly associated with higher religious knowledge.


Which says that simply by virtue of the fact that one is a college graduate - religion course or not - one is likely to know much more about religion.Which simply says that a poll full of questions aimed at graduates of college religion courses will result in that group scoring highest. :D:D And yes, actually, you can be sure of the truth without having to wade through every competing lie. :)

lacarnut
10-06-2010, 06:49 PM
Which simply says that a poll full of questions aimed at graduates of college religion courses will result in that group scoring highest. :D:D And yes, actually, you can be sure of the truth without having to wade through every competing lie. :)

I equate the two sides (believers and non believers) with business owners and Harvard economists. One practices application while the other practices theory. Not to mention one is going to hell in a hand basket.