PDA

View Full Version : @wee, wilbur, shoe etc...



Jfor
10-04-2010, 05:21 PM
Do you believe America is the greatest country on earth? Do you believe in American exceptionalism?


Mods, please delete any of their replies that have nothing to do with the question.

obx
10-05-2010, 10:03 AM
bump
________
Og Kush (http://trichomes.org/marijuana-strains/og-kush)

Wei Wu Wei
10-05-2010, 10:08 AM
Greatest country? I don't take such terms seriously but even if I were to, no not at all. American Exceptionalism? Well...America is exceptional at certain things, but no I'm not down with blanket nationalism or flag-waving uber-patriotism. The best thiung about this country is being able to not have to buy into that bullshit.

Rockntractor
10-05-2010, 10:26 AM
Greatest country? I don't take such terms seriously but even if I were to, no not at all. American Exceptionalism? Well...America is exceptional at certain things, but no I'm not down with blanket nationalism or flag-waving uber-patriotism. The best thiung about this country is being able to not have to buy into that bullshit.

Good point Weible, but if it goes in the direction you want it to you will no longer have that freedom.
The left is already trying to allow only their free speech!

Sonnabend
10-05-2010, 10:29 AM
Do you believe America is the greatest country on earth?

These days with the crap thats going on here? Yes

Anyone wanna trade? Wee Wee can come here and live and I'll take his place in the US.

Arroyo_Doble
10-05-2010, 10:42 AM
The position of the Americans is therefore quite exceptional, and it may be believed that no democratic people will ever be placed in a similar one. Their strictly Puritanical origin, their exclusively commercial habits, even the country they inhabit, which seems to divert their minds from the pursuit of science, literature, and the arts, the proximity of Europe, which allows them to neglect these pursuits without relapsing into barbarism, a thousand special causes, of which I have only been able to point out the most important, have singularly concurred to fix the mind of the American upon purely practical objects. His passions, his wants, his education, and everything about him seem to unite in drawing the native of the United States earthward; his religion alone bids him turn, from time to time, a transient and distracted glance to heaven. Let us cease, then, to view all democratic nations under the example of the American people.

~ Alexis de Tocqueville


Ultimately, I believe American Exceptionalism will prevail over the China-India model.

wilbur
10-05-2010, 10:56 AM
Do you believe America is the greatest country on earth? Do you believe in American exceptionalism?


Mods, please delete any of their replies that have nothing to do with the question.

Well, first off... America is not a country... but I assume you mean the USA.

I don't know what "great" is supposed to mean exactly.... you need to define what you see as great-making properties. Until then, its likely that "great" means two different things to each of us. Once that's done, we can examine to what degree the USA has those properties.

I will say, that as much as I love other parts of the world (even other western democratic countries) I am glad to have been born here. Sweden might have been cool though.

Jfor
10-05-2010, 11:36 AM
Greatest country? I don't take such terms seriously but even if I were to, no not at all. American Exceptionalism? Well...America is exceptional at certain things, but no I'm not down with blanket nationalism or flag-waving uber-patriotism. The best thiung about this country is being able to not have to buy into that bullshit.

Exactly what I thought you would say. Your anti-Americanism shows.


Well, first off... America is not a country... but I assume you mean the USA.

I don't know what "great" is supposed to mean exactly.... you need to define what you see as great-making properties. Until then, its likely that "great" means two different things to each of us. Once that's done, we can examine to what degree the USA has those properties.

I will say, that as much as I love other parts of the world (even other western democratic countries) I am glad to have been born here. Sweden might have been cool though.

Way to try and parse words and not actually answer the damn question.

wilbur
10-05-2010, 02:54 PM
Exactly what I thought you would say. Your anti-Americanism shows.



Way to try and parse words and not actually answer the damn question.


"X is the greatest country on Earth" is one of those stupid little patriotic platitudes meant to hype up one's nationalistic emotions, but don't mistake it for something meaningful. The devil is in the details, and all the details of the term "great" are completely undefined. So the question is meaningless.

Give me some criteria for "greatness" to analyze, and we can turn it into something real.

On the flip side, its interesting how these little meaningless questions get used as tests. Despite the meaninglessness of the question, if one doesn't answer in a way that matches the questioners sentiments, they feel justified to pickup the pitchforks and torches and lynch away. It certainly seems that's where you are dying to go, based on that last reply.

Its like a little club with a password - pretend this means something and you pass... call out the inanity of the question, and you'll be banished. Such is the way of the mob.

Arroyo_Doble
10-05-2010, 03:08 PM
"X is the greatest country on Earth" is one of those stupid little patriotic platitudes meant to hype up one's nationalistic emotions, but don't mistake it for something meaningful. The devil is in the details, and all the details of the term "great" are completely undefined. So the question is meaningless.

Give me some criteria for "greatness" to analyze, and we can turn it into something real.

On the flip side, its interesting how these little meaningless questions get used as tests. Despite the meaninglessness of the question, if one doesn't answer in a way that matches the questioners sentiments, they feel justified to pickup the pitchforks and torches and lynch away. It certainly seems that's where you are dying to go, based on that last reply.

Its like a little club with a password - pretend this means something and you pass... call out the inanity of the question, and you'll be banished.

It is not merely a question of loyalty like being asked who the best baseball team in the major leagues is (the Rangers). It also shows where your cultural and ethical center lies. Some may feel China is the greatest nation due to their tight and successful control over their economy or that Sweden is because ABBA rocks the mullet. You could even say Israel because of the long and documented cultural tradition found in the Jewish tribe and that it represents their homeland. Or how about Canada for .... well .... Canadian things?

Saying whether or not the United States is the greatest nation on Earth isn't just a Jingo Test. To dismiss it as such, or to administer it as such, leads me to believe the question and answer have not been thought through.

Wei Wu Wei
10-05-2010, 03:10 PM
Exactly, it depends on what you mean by great. Military force? Happiness of the people? Personal freedom? Noble acts? Cultural influence via hollywood?

wilbur
10-05-2010, 03:27 PM
It is not merely a question of loyalty like being asked who the best baseball team in the major leagues is (the Rangers). It also shows where your cultural and ethical center lies. Some may feel China is the greatest nation due to their tight and successful control over their economy or that Sweden is because ABBA rocks the mullet. You could even say Israel because of the long and documented cultural tradition found in the Jewish tribe and that it represents their homeland. Or how about Canada for .... well .... Canadian things?

Saying whether or not the United States is the greatest nation on Earth isn't just a Jingo Test. To dismiss it as such, or to administer it as such, leads me to believe the question and answer have not been thought through.

I think you are essentially proving my point - 'greatness' is undefined - it can mean anything - yet if you don't go through the theatrics of answering with an enthusiastic "yes", you are likely to be ostracized.

The questioner is probing for some shared set of values by way of the undefined term great... and is ready to shun the questionee if they don't provide him a signal of those shared values. But since greatness can mean anything, any signal of shared value that he receives is completely illusory.

Picture asking, "Is America the greatest country on earth" to person A and B. They all answer with an emphatic "yes", high-five each other and buy a round of drinks for one another. You decide to examine why they answered "yes", and these are the reasons they give:

Person A: A says its the greatest country in the world because its not afraid to flex its military might around the world to crush its enemies, and build nations, and anyone who says otherwise is an unpatriotic goon who should be hung.

Person B: B says its because he thinks the country is coming to the realization that its agressive military campaigns around the world and its attempts at nation building are wrong and immoral and evil, and anyone who says otherwise is an unpatriotic traitor who should rot in jail forever.

These guys would really be closer to mortal enemies, yet have given each other the false illusion of patriotic solidarity... because the question actually is meaningless, until one quantifies what "greatness" is supposed to be.

Arroyo_Doble
10-05-2010, 03:39 PM
I think you are essentially proving my point - 'greatness' is undefined - it can mean anything - yet if you don't go through the theatrics of answering with an enthusiastic "yes", you are likely to be ostracized.

The questioner is probing for some shared set of values by way of the undefined term great... and is ready to shun the questionee if they don't provide him a signal of those shared values. But since greatness can mean anything, any signal of shared value that he receives is completely illusory.

Picture asking, "Is America the greatest country on earth" to person A and B. They all answer with an emphatic "yes", high-five each other and buy a round of drinks for one another. You decide to examine why they answered "yes", and these are the reasons they give:

Person A: A says its the greatest country in the world because its not afraid to flex its military might around the world to crush its enemies, and build nations, and anyone who says otherwise is an unpatriotic goon who should be hung.

Person B: B says its because he thinks the country is coming to the realization that its agressive military campaigns around the world and its attempts at nation building are wrong and immoral and evil, and anyone who says otherwise is an unpatriotic traitor who should rot in jail forever.

These guys would really be closer to mortal enemies, yet have given each other the false illusion of patriotic solidarity... because the question actually is meaningless, until one quantifies what "greatness" is supposed to be.

I think you missed it.

Sonnabend
10-05-2010, 06:21 PM
"X is the greatest country on Earth" is one of those stupid little patriotic platitudes meant to hype up one's nationalistic emotions, but don't mistake it for something meaningful.

On the contrary, it is highly meaningful..it is in effect asking you where your loyalties lie.Your answer was highly educational, believe me. It had plenty of meaning and indicates a large amount about you and who and what you are.


The devil is in the details, and all the details of the term "great" are completely undefined. So the question is meaningless.

To you, maybe.


Give me some criteria for "greatness" to analyze, and we can turn it into something real.

If you have to ask that question, then you wont understand the answer.


On the flip side, its interesting how these little meaningless questions get used as tests. Despite the meaninglessness of the question, if one doesn't answer in a way that matches the questioners sentiments, they feel justified to pickup the pitchforks and torches and lynch away. It certainly seems that's where you are dying to go, based on that last reply.

Not really, just another indication of your character, or lack thereof.


Its like a little club with a password - pretend this means something and you pass... call out the inanity of the question, and you'll be banished. Such is the way of the mob.

Oh, it means more than you will ever know, wilbur...believe me. Oh and as for the "mob"? Aren't you the one touting "consensus" as your overwhelming authority?

Which reminds me, you never did answer my question..what is it that makes you right and the rest of us wrong? What are your qualifications in climate science?

You seem to like dishing out insults...but never answering questions.

Care to do so?

Wei Wu Wei
10-05-2010, 06:48 PM
Was Hitler a Great Leader? Well it depends what you mean by great.

Was Rome a Great Empire? Well it dpeends on what you mean by great

Was WWII the Grestest War? Well it may depend on what you mean, casualities, land occupation, length of time, ect.

Is Fox News the Greatest Cable News Network? Depends, ratings and attention-grabbing? or fact-checking and integrity?

"great" is meaningless, it can carry a positive, negative, or neutral connotation depending on the context.

Rockntractor
10-05-2010, 06:57 PM
Was Hitler a Great Leader? Well it depends what you mean by great.

Was Rome a Great Empire? Well it dpeends on what you mean by great

Was WWII the Grestest War? Well it may depend on what you mean, casualities, land occupation, length of time, ect.

Is Fox News the Greatest Cable News Network? Depends, ratings and attention-grabbing? or fact-checking and integrity?

"great" is meaningless, it can carry a positive, negative, or neutral connotation depending on the context.

You are an idiot in any context.

Odysseus
10-05-2010, 07:11 PM
Greatest country? I don't take such terms seriously but even if I were to, no not at all. American Exceptionalism? Well...America is exceptional at certain things, but no I'm not down with blanket nationalism or flag-waving uber-patriotism. The best thiung about this country is being able to not have to buy into that bullshit.
So, the thing that you like most about America is your right to hate it?

Well, first off... America is not a country... but I assume you mean the USA.

I don't know what "great" is supposed to mean exactly.... you need to define what you see as great-making properties. Until then, its likely that "great" means two different things to each of us. Once that's done, we can examine to what degree the USA has those properties.

I will say, that as much as I love other parts of the world (even other western democratic countries) I am glad to have been born here. Sweden might have been cool though.

Since you appear to be incapable of deciding what great means, allow me to assist you:

great   /greɪt/ Show Spelled
[greyt] Show IPA
adjective, -er, -est, adverb, noun, plural greats, ( especially collectively ) great, interjection
–adjective
1. unusually or comparatively large in size or dimensions: A great fire destroyed nearly half the city.
2. large in number; numerous: Great hordes of tourists descend on Europe each summer.
3. unusual or considerable in degree, power, intensity, etc.: great pain.
4. wonderful; first-rate; very good: We had a great time. That's great!
5. being such in an extreme or notable degree: great friends; a great talker.
6. notable; remarkable; exceptionally outstanding: a great occasion.
7. important; highly significant or consequential: the great issues in American history.
8. distinguished; famous: a great inventor.
9. of noble or lofty character: great thoughts.
10. chief or principal: the great hall; his greatest novel.
11. of high rank, official position, or social standing: a great noble.
12. much in use or favor: “Humor” was a great word with the old physiologists.
13. of extraordinary powers; having unusual merit; very admirable: a great statesman.
14. of considerable duration or length: We waited a great while for the train.

Since 1-4 are objective measures of size, it can be assumed that they are not subject to question. 4-9, however, are superlatives, especially in describing a nation. Thus, for the purpose of this thread, we can assume that great means exceptional, outstanding, important, consequential, distinguished and of noble or lofty character.

Now, do I have to explain any other words in the thread title, or do you highly educated, erudite intellectuals feel that you can now answer the question without further definition?

BTW, this does not apply to Arroyo, who actually provided a direct and succinct answer. Who'd have thought it?

Sonnabend
10-05-2010, 07:16 PM
Was Hitler a Great Leader? Well it depends what you mean by great.No, he was a mass murderer. And a Socialist.


Was Rome a Great Empire? Well it depends on what you mean by greatYes. Rome brought civilisation, and literature, and art to the world. The greatest thing any man or woman could say was "Civis Romanus Sum" -"I am a Roman citizen"— and it was the highest possible self-definition, a source of pride, and an aspiration for many.


Was WWII the Grestest War? Well it may depend on what you mean, casualities, land occupation, length of time, ect.No. WW1 is known as the Great War. You didnt know?.


"great" is meaningless, it can carry a positive, negative, or neutral connotation depending on the context.Are you the greatest imbecile we have ever seen? Next to Wilbur, yes.


BTW, this does not apply to Arroyo, who actually provided a direct and succinct answer. Who'd have thought it?I agree with Arroyo. CALL THE POPE, the end days are here!!!!!

Major, in your case hold the call, and get me your rabbi..wait forget that. Call your mother :D:D

CueSi
10-05-2010, 11:23 PM
My parents had a choice to emigrate to three countries. They chose this one.

~QC

NJCardFan
10-06-2010, 12:07 AM
Well, first off... America is not a country... but I assume you mean the USA.

Do you consider Holland a country? Are the Dutch a people? Even though both are in what we know as The Netherlands? Also, if America isn't a country, then why are we called United Statsians? We are called America and when we are criticized around the world we are called Americans. When Obama goes on his world apology tour, he speaks of America and Americans. So, you can take your semantics, shine it up real nice, turn it sideways, and shove it straight up your America hating candy ass.

wilbur
10-06-2010, 08:35 AM
4-9, however, are superlatives, especially in describing a nation. Thus, for the purpose of this thread, we can assume that great means exceptional, outstanding, important, consequential, distinguished and of noble or lofty character.


Heh, each of those terms is highly subjective in the exact same way.

Q: Is the USA exceptional, outstanding, important, consequential, distinguished, and of noble character?

Person A: Yes!
Person B: Yes!

Q: Explain your answer!

Person A: Because the USA gives aid, comfort, money and weapons to Israelis, who are victims of an ongoing terrible invasion by the evil Palestinians! Very noble!

Person B: Hey, what?!! No, its because the USA has a large grassroots movement mobilized to aid the poor Palestinians, who are being slaughtered by the evil nation of Israel! That's what is noble!



Now, do I have to explain any other words in the thread title, or do you highly educated, erudite intellectuals feel that you can now answer the question without further definition?


What you need to do is present some objective criteria for 'greatness', or reformulate the question entirely into something other than a stupid, nationalistic platitude.

wilbur
10-06-2010, 08:45 AM
On the contrary, it is highly meaningful..it is in effect asking you where your loyalties lie.

Well, if one had asked me if I was loyal to my country, I would have said "yes". I'm quite fond of this place, and I like it a lot. I would like to make sure it sticks around for a very long time. They didn't ask that though, did they?



Your answer was highly educational, believe me. It had plenty of meaning and indicates a large amount about you and who and what you are.

To you, maybe.

If you have to ask that question, then you wont understand the answer.

Not really, just another indication of your character, or lack thereof.

Oh, it means more than you will ever know, wilbur...believe me. Oh and as for the "mob"?


Now we're seeing how this question is really used... its exactly as I said a few posts back. Sonna is polishing his pitchfork.



Aren't you the one touting "consensus" as your overwhelming authority?


Which reminds me, you never did answer my question..what is it that makes you right and the rest of us wrong? What are your qualifications in climate science?

You seem to like dishing out insults...but never answering questions.

Care to do so?

No. I've told you repeatedly to start a new thread if you want to talk about this stuff. The mods have as well. It's childish, absurd, and rude (to say the least) to hijack every single thread I participate with your crazy ass accusations and rants about global warming.

So if you want to talk global warming or whatever else, go start a thread. There's a little button down there at the bottom that says "New Thread". Learn to use it.

Sonnabend
10-06-2010, 08:57 AM
No. I've told you repeatedly to start a new thread if you want to talk about this stuff. The mods have as well. It's childish, absurd, and rude (to say the least) to hijack every single thread I participate with your crazy ass accusations and rants about global warming.

This is the Dome, I will ask what I damned well please, and my comments go straight to this


Its like a little club with a password - pretend this means something and you pass... call out the inanity of the question, and you'll be banished. Such is the way of the mob.


So if you want to talk global warming or whatever else, go start a thread. There's a little button down there at the bottom that says "New Thread". Learn to use it.

Why should I bother when you will ignore it or refuse to answer it anyway?

Ree
10-06-2010, 09:13 AM
Well, if one had asked me if I was loyal to my country, I would have said "yes". I'm quite fond of this place, and I like it a lot. I would like to make sure it sticks around for a very long time. They didn't ask that though, did they?



Now we're seeing how this question is really used... its exactly as I said a few posts back. Sonna is polishing his pitchfork.



No. I've told you repeatedly to start a new thread if you want to talk about this stuff. The mods have as well. It's childish, absurd, and rude (to say the least) to hijack every single thread I participate with your crazy ass accusations and rants about global warming.

So if you want to talk global warming or whatever else, go start a thread. There's a little button down there at the bottom that says "New Thread". Learn to use it.
Who the hell put your ass in charge around here? This is the fuckin DOME boy...He can ask you and damned think he wants to ya fuckin candy ass.

Arroyo_Doble
10-06-2010, 10:23 AM
Now we're seeing how this question is really used... its exactly as I said a few posts back. Sonna is polishing his pitchfork.


Now I'm confused. I thought Sonna was Australian.

Odysseus
10-06-2010, 10:24 AM
Heh, each of those terms is highly subjective in the exact same way.

Q: Is the USA exceptional, outstanding, important, consequential, distinguished, and of noble character?

Person A: Yes!
Person B: Yes!

Q: Explain your answer!

Person A: Because the USA gives aid, comfort, money and weapons to Israelis, who are victims of an ongoing terrible invasion by the evil Palestinians! Very noble!

Person B: Hey, what?!! No, its because the USA has a large grassroots movement mobilized to aid the poor Palestinians, who are being slaughtered by the evil nation of Israel! That's what is noble!

What you need to do is present some objective criteria for 'greatness', or reformulate the question entirely into something other than a stupid, nationalistic platitude.
This isn't rocket science. All opinions are subjective or they wouldn't be opinions. What's interesting is how hard you are working to avoid giving yours, especially since you're perfectly willing to present your opinion as fact on just about every other subject, especially religion. What is it that you can't bring yourself to say?

I'm going to call this one "non-responsive" (again) and rephrase the question: Do you consider America the greatest country on Earth, and if so, what do you consider great about America? If not, what characteristics of greatness do you consider lacking in America, and what country would you cite as the greatest?


Now we're seeing how this question is really used... its exactly as I said a few posts back. Sonna is polishing his pitchfork.
What he does in the privacy of his bedroom is no one's business but his. Keep it out of the gutter. :D

Now I'm confused. I thought Sonna was Australian.
He is. But many people have affection for nations in addition to their own, just as some have affection for nations in lieu of their own. Sonna belongs firmly in the former category.

Arroyo_Doble
10-06-2010, 10:37 AM
He is. But many people have affection for nations in addition to their own, just as some have affection for nations in lieu of their own. Sonna belongs firmly in the former category.

That's true. I have a great deal of affection for NATO (especially Great Britain and Canada) but that doesn't mean I am willing to grant those nations exceptionalism in the sense that Tocqueville meant nor the superlative of being the greatest nation on Earth; I reserve those for my own. I would also add that an American city is the pinnacle of human civilization.

wilbur
10-06-2010, 10:37 AM
Who the hell put your ass in charge around here? This is the fuckin DOME boy...He can ask you and damned think he wants to ya fuckin candy ass.

Well, since its the Dome, then I can chastise him like the foolish child he is, in any way I damn well please, as I did a few posts ago can't I? Besides, his stalking extends beyond the dome.

wilbur
10-06-2010, 11:12 AM
This isn't rocket science. All opinions are subjective or they wouldn't be opinions. What's interesting is how hard you are working to avoid giving yours, especially since you're perfectly willing to present your opinion as fact on just about every other subject, especially religion. What is it that you can't bring yourself to say?


OMG it all must mean I'm a flag-burning commie who hates the USA and wants to eat your babies!! Am I right?

How about this.. I'll tell you about a few things that I like about America...

I like the security a strong and loyal military provides.
I like our continued (but lapsing) spot as the worlds technological leader and all the opportunities that come with it.
I do like our founding documents, though I think many nations now have more desirable constitutions (most of which were drafted by us) than our own.
I like the amazing variety of scenery.
I like that I am able to have a decent quality of life here.

Here are a few things I don't like...

Our crime rates suck.
Our general medical system sucks, despite all the conservative propaganda to the contrary.
The demigod status that corporations enjoy because of the strong conservative/libertarian sentiment here fosters tyranny of another kind - don't like that.
Our election system is abysmally broken.
I dislike that the majority of people use ancient texts written by ignorant primitives as their guide book for public policy, how they deal with other people, and life in general.

Neither list is exhaustive.

Is there another spot on this Earth outside the US borders where I could live a more enjoyable life, where there exists more of the things I value, and less of the things I find detrimental? I'd be a little surprised if there wasn't. I don't know quite where that would be, though.

NJCardFan
10-06-2010, 11:56 AM
OMG it all must mean I'm a flag-burning commie who hates the USA and wants to eat your babies!! Am I right?

How about this.. I'll tell you about a few things that I like about America...

I like the security a strong and loyal military provides.
I like our continued (but lapsing) spot as the worlds technological leader and all the opportunities that come with it.
I do like our founding documents, though I think many nations now have more desirable constitutions (most of which were drafted by us) than our own.
I like the amazing variety of scenery.
I like that I am able to have a decent quality of life here.

Here are a few things I don't like...

Our crime rates suck.
Our general medical system sucks, despite all the conservative propaganda to the contrary.
The demigod status that corporations enjoy because of the strong conservative/libertarian sentiment here fosters tyranny of another kind - don't like that.
Our election system is abysmally broken.
I dislike that the majority of people use ancient texts written by ignorant primitives as their guide book for public policy, how they deal with other people, and life in general.

Neither list is exhaustive.

Is there another spot on this Earth outside the US borders where I could live a more enjoyable life, where there exist more of the things I value, and less of the things I find detrimental? I'd be a little surprised if there wasn't. I don't know quite where that would be, though.

I'll let Dinesh D'Souza, someone who is from another country who moved here, explain a few things:

Indeed newcomers to the United States are struck by the amenities enjoyed by “poor” people in the United States. This fact was dramatized in the 1980s when CBS television broadcast a documentary, People Like Us, which was intended to show the miseries of the poor during an ongoing recession. The Soviet Union also broadcast the documentary, with a view to embarrassing the Reagan administration. But by the testimony of former Soviet leaders, it had the opposite effect. Ordinary people across the Soviet Union saw that the poorest Americans have TV sets, microwave ovens, and cars. They arrived at the same perception that I witnessed in an acquaintance of mine from Bombay who has been unsuccessfully trying to move to the United States. I asked him, “Why are you so eager to come to America?” He replied, “I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat.” http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/207396/10-great-things/dsouza

As for your dislikes about this country, allow me to retort:


Our crime rates suck.

Crime rates are high in all urban areas. Urban areas breed gangs. Gangs breed violence. And the culture in these areas give birth to these gangs. But for every LA or Detroit, there are several cities and towns where the crime rate is very low or even close to non-existent. However, go to most countries urban areas and the crime rate is high. Do you think when people go to Jamaica or some other resort, they are encouraged to stay in the resort area for their pleasure only? Where ever you have a massive amount of people, you're going to have crime. Go to Mexico City or Rio and walk the streets alone at night and tell me how you make out.


Our general medical system sucks, despite all the conservative propaganda to the contrary.

And people come from all around the world, including such socialized medicine havens like Canada, come here for treatment because our medical system sucks. :rolleyes: Go to a hospital in Istanbul and tell me how great it is.


The demigod status that corporations enjoy because of the strong conservative/libertarian sentiment here fosters tyranny of another kind - don't like that.
Without corporations, you wouldn't have that computer your on or the television you watch or even the channels you watch or food you eat or car you drive...shall I go on or is my point made? Let me ask you, if every corporation in this country got up and left, just like your ilk want, how do you think life in this country will improve?


Our election system is abysmally broken.

It may no be perfect but it certainly is not broken. I do agree with you to a point only because I believe you should have to produce some kind of ID in order to vote. So, if the system is broken, it's your ilk who broke it.


I dislike that the majority of people use ancient texts written by ignorant primitives as their guide book for public policy, how they deal with other people, and life in general.
What text are you talking about? The Constitution? No, knowing your stupidity, you're talking about the Bible. OK, show me one aspect of the Bible that is being used for public policy. Just one. I'll Wait. As for the 2nd half of this, I'm not getting where you have a problem with a book that teaches people to be kind to one another, treat each other with respect and love. But it's kind of ironic really. It's those who stopped living by this "ancient text written by ignorant primitives" who drive up the crime rates you hate so much. So, there you have it you dope. Even these people even lived a modicum of how the Bible says we should, the crime rates would be much, much lower. It's nice seeing you contradict yourself. You made a smacked ass out of yourself and you didn't even know it.

Oh, and by the way, there isn't a law on the planet that didn't ascribe to some kind of ancient text somewhere, asshole.

Wei Wu Wei
10-06-2010, 12:07 PM
And people come from all around the world, including such socialized medicine havens like Canada, come here for treatment because our medical system sucks. :rolleyes: America has the best medical system if you are wealthy enough to afford it. So yes, wealthy and powerful people from around the world come to America to get healthcare that most Americans can't even get. I don't argue with that.


Go to a hospital in Istanbul and tell me how great it is.

It doesn't look so bad really: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWu6fO-S7Qk

and I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that those new parents didn't have to pay $15,000 in fees for that childbirth.





Without corporations, you wouldn't have that computer your on or the television you watch or even the channels you watch or food you eat or car you drive...shall I go on or is my point made? Let me ask you, if every corporation in this country got up and left, just like your ilk want, how do you think life in this country will improve?

Just because corporations in their current form dominate the means of production doesn't mean that corporations in another form couldn't continue to produce things as well.

If every corporation just left we'd suddenly have a LOT of really cheap land and buildings and factories for sale. Don't be absurd.

Odysseus
10-06-2010, 12:44 PM
Well, if one had asked me if I was loyal to my country, I would have said "yes". I'm quite fond of this place, and I like it a lot. I would like to make sure it sticks around for a very long time. They didn't ask that though, did they?
No, we didn't.


Now we're seeing how this question is really used... its exactly as I said a few posts back. Sonna is polishing his pitchfork.
It must have a very long handle if he can threaten you with it from Australia.


OMG it all must mean I'm a flag-burning commie who hates the USA and wants to eat your babies!! Am I right?
You'd know better than I would. I just wanted to see how you answered the question of the thread.


How about this.. I'll tell you about a few things that I like about America...
Yes, but that's something that you could do about any country. The question of thread doesn't ask what your turn ons and turn offs are (the back of the Playboy centerfold is where that goes). The question is, do you believe that America is the "greatest" nation in the world, that America is exceptional? This isn't a complicated question. it's really a simple yes or no. You either do or you don't. Why are you working so hard to avoid answering the question?


I like the security a strong and loyal military provides.
You're welcome. Now, if you would just stop tying our hands so that we can keep providing you with that security, it would be greatly appreciated. As for the rest, I'm sure that you also like puppies, sunsets and long walks on the beach, and dislike traffic and rude people. Like I said, you could have simply filled out the Playboy Playmate data sheet and come up with the same answer. The point of this thread is whether or not you feel a unique attachment to America, whether you see it as, not a great place, but the greatest. Not whether you see it as a unique place among many unique places, but exceptional, unique in and of itself. It appears that you don't, or that you can't bring yourself to say it if you do. I wonder why that is.


Is there another spot on this Earth outside the US borders where I could live a more enjoyable life, where there exists more of the things I value, and less of the things I find detrimental? I'd be a little surprised if there wasn't. I don't know quite where that would be, though.
Then you might as well start looking, because the sooner you find Wiltopia, the happier you will be.


That's true. I have a great deal of affection for NATO (especially Great Britain and Canada) but that doesn't mean I am willing to grant those nations exceptionalism in the sense that Tocqueville meant nor the superlative of being the greatest nation on Earth; I reserve those for my own. I would also add that an American city is the pinnacle of human civilization.
NATO isn't a country. And which American city are you talking about? Certainly not Detroit? Then again, Wei is about to step in it, so maybe you do...

America has the best medical system if you are wealthy enough to afford it. So yes, wealthy and powerful people from around the world come to America to get healthcare that most Americans can't even get. I don't argue with that.
And the vast majority of Americans can afford it. Those who lack coverage make up, at most, 15% of the country, and of those, about half are illegals, a significant percentage are young and healthy and have opted to defer purchasing of insurance while they concentrate on other financial areas (starting businesses, for example). It's not as simplistic as you always assume that it is.

It doesn't look so bad really: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWu6fO-S7Qk

and I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that those new parents didn't have to pay $15,000 in fees for that childbirth.
How long did the parents have to wait for it? How many similar facilties are there in Turkey? That facility was in the largest, most affluent city in the country. Are there similar facilities in the boondocks, or is that what healthcare looks like for the "wealthy and powerful"? BTW, I haven't been to Turkey, but I have been to Kuwait and Iraq, and I can tell you that the premier health facilities are as nice as ours, but there are nowhere near as many of them. When I herniated two disks in my neck, I had to go to Kuwait for an MRI. When I got back to CONUS and had to have it updated, I had to drive a few blocks. We get better care because we pay for it, not because it's provided out of the goodness of the hearts of the providers.


Just because corporations in their current form dominate the means of production doesn't mean that corporations in another form couldn't continue to produce things as well.

If every corporation just left we'd suddenly have a LOT of really cheap land and buildings and factories for sale. Don't be absurd.
And no capital to invest in them. Without that, you'd have Detroit, which has lots of cheap land, buildings and factories, and no jobs, products or economy. Eventually, the land lays fallow, the buildings and factories collapse and the machinery rusts. Welcome to your utopia.

Arroyo_Doble
10-06-2010, 12:57 PM
NATO isn't a country.

I phrased that awkawardly. I meant NATO countries and held up two of them as being at the top of that list.


And which American city are you talking about?

New York City. Some may argue others but that was the one I meant.


Certainly not Detroit? Then again, Wei is about to step in it, so maybe you do...

There is a sad contraction going on in certain parts of America. But I suppose Detroit benefited from another demographic shift that occurred almost a century ago.

Ree
10-06-2010, 01:17 PM
Well, since its the Dome, then I can chastise him like the foolish child he is, in any way I damn well please, as I did a few posts ago can't I? Besides, his stalking extends beyond the dome.
I'd suggest ya grow some balls then...

Ree
10-06-2010, 01:22 PM
America has the best medical system if you are wealthy enough to afford it. So yes, wealthy and powerful people from around the world come to America to get healthcare that most Americans can't even get. I don't argue with that.
~snip~.
BULLSHIT....I got the best medical treatment and a helicopter ride with NO insurance. So don't even fuckin try to tell me ya can't get medical treatment without insurance. If I'd been in any other country I'd be dead...

wilbur
10-06-2010, 01:32 PM
Yes, but that's something that you could do about any country. The question of thread doesn't ask what your turn ons and turn offs are (the back of the Playboy centerfold is where that goes). The question is, do you believe that America is the "greatest" nation in the world, that America is exceptional? This isn't a complicated question. it's really a simple yes or no. You either do or you don't. Why are you working so hard to avoid answering the question?


Though I've said my piece on why the question is silly, childish, and meaningless I'll put it one more way.

The question's real purpose is to uncover some shared values between people. But it doesn't actually name those values, so it basically amounts to asking nothing. And when you get a yes or no answer, you are getting nothing in return.

I went a few steps further, in light of the spirit of the question, and actually shared some of the specific things I value about this place with you and everyone else. So take it or leave it... the answer is enough to decide whether you also share some of the same values as I do or that you don't. Either way, the purpose of the question has been fulfilled here.

wilbur
10-06-2010, 01:33 PM
You're welcome. Now, if you would just stop tying our hands so that we can keep providing you with that security, it would be greatly appreciated.

Seriously, I'm not the boogeyman you are looking for - I'm not tying anybody's hands. I don't know how you can even say such a thing when you have no idea what my positions are regarding the military or even our foreign policy. Well, I guess I do know - you just argue against a liberal template as imagined by conservative conspiracy theorists... but never against anybody that actually exists.

Odysseus
10-06-2010, 04:42 PM
I phrased that awkawardly. I meant NATO countries and held up two of them as being at the top of that list.
Fair enough. Some people are trying to make the case that the EU is now a nation.


New York City. Some may argue others but that was the one I meant.
I'm a New Yorker. I concur, but it's not as civilized as it was under Rudy.


There is a sad contraction going on in certain parts of America. But I suppose Detroit benefited from another demographic shift that occurred almost a century ago.
The demographic shift was driven by the economic shift. If Ford and the rest of the auto industry hadn't been centered there, there would not have been a mass migration.


Though I've said my piece on why the question is silly, childish, and meaningless I'll put it one more way.
Sounds like this question has touched a nerve.

The question's real purpose is to uncover some shared values between people. But it doesn't actually name those values, so it basically amounts to asking nothing. And when you get a yes or no answer, you are getting nothing in return.
I don't agree. The question is fairly straightforward. Most Americans would say that they consider America the greatest nation in the world. They may disagree on the factors that make it the greatest, but there would be agreement on the basic premise. Similarly, they would agree that America is exceptional, that it is unique among nations. These are large value judgements. The details that go into them, what you like or don't like about America, doesn't tell us where you stand on America as a whole. It's like saying that you love the blue states and hate the red states, or vice versa. You are describing parts, but ignoring the whole.

I went a few steps further, in light of the spirit of the question, and actually shared some of the specific things I value about this place with you and everyone else. So take it or leave it... the answer is enough to decide whether you also share some of the same values as I do or that you don't. Either way, the purpose of the question has been fulfilled here.
The details are less important than that major theme, i.e., you're focusing on individual trees, but refuse to acknowledge the forest.

Seriously, I'm not the boogeyman you are looking for - I'm not tying anybody's hands. I don't know how you can even say such a thing when you have no idea what my positions are regarding the military or even our foreign policy. Well, I guess I do know - you just argue against a liberal template as imagined by conservative conspiracy theorists... but never against anybody that actually exists.
No, we've talked this before. I've got a pretty good idea of where you stand on most issues. On Global Warming, you are a warmista who considers those who disagree to be "denialists".

If there is any truth to the articles descriptions of the study, it *confirms* that the majority of the Himalayan glaciers are, in fact, melting, despite what denialists have been claiming. So while the IPCC's findings have been refined (assuming it holds up), the denialist claims have been completely contradicted by yet another paper.
How on earth a denialist can interpret this as a point for their team is well... unbelievable (but hilarious).
On gay marriage, you consider any opposition to it to be bigoted and irrational, and refuse to consider any other point of view on it.
On America as a force for good in the world, you've written the following in response to this:

Chomsky is a very outspoken apologist for those governments that freely murder innocents, while opposing those governments that attempt to reduce innocent casualties as far as possible...which makes him the perfect spokesperson for our most liberal posters, of course. After all, humans are the only wrong with this planet.


Chomsky would probably regard the US as such a government (and of course, Israel). I might not agree completely, but the cases for those arguments are strong enough that we should feel pretty uncomfortable about them.

So, you partially disagree with the idea that America murders innocents, but only partially. And when it comes to answering a simple question on your own country, you dodge and weave like Muhammed Ali on rollerskates.

Wilbur, what it comes down to is that you are the kind of guy who only takes a position when it's safe. The kind of man of whom Edmund Burke spoke when he said, "the only condition necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Not a monster, just an enabler of monsters.

Sonnabend
10-06-2010, 07:15 PM
No. I've told you repeatedly to start a new thread if you want to talk about this stuff. The mods have as well. It's childish, absurd, and rude (to say the least) to hijack every single thread I participate with your crazy ass accusations and rants about global warming.

So if you want to talk global warming or whatever else, go start a thread. There's a little button down there at the bottom that says "New Thread". Learn to use it.
Your wish is granted. (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=32461)

Awaiting your answer.


Well, since its the Dome, then I can chastise him like the foolish child he is, in any way I damn well please, as I did a few posts ago can't I? Besides, his stalking extends beyond the dome.

Straw man and a pathetic excuse. You wanted a new thread? Ya got one.

Coward.

Sonnabend
10-06-2010, 08:15 PM
and I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that those new parents didn't have to pay $15,000 in fees for that childbirth.

Population of Turkey 73,914,260

Unemployment: 16 percent

Population of US: Over 300 million

Unemployed: ten percent and growing, not to mention the millions of illegal aliens using health care and other facilities they do not pay for, as they pay no taxes. And the millions of liberals and other morons on other forms of welfare, who also pay no taxes.

wilbur
10-07-2010, 12:27 AM
Sounds like this question has touched a nerve.

Nah... my responses surely have touched some nerves though.... plural.



I don't agree. The question is fairly straightforward. Most Americans would say that they consider America the greatest nation in the world. They may disagree on the factors that make it the greatest, but there would be agreement on the basic premise. Similarly, they would agree that America is exceptional, that it is unique among nations. These are large value judgements. The details that go into them, what you like or don't like about America, doesn't tell us where you stand on America as a whole. It's like saying that you love the blue states and hate the red states, or vice versa. You are describing parts, but ignoring the whole.

The details are less important than that major theme, i.e., you're focusing on individual trees, but refuse to acknowledge the forest.


Well, I've thought about this some more, and have found another little odd aspect of "the question" that reveals yet another way in which the question is poorly aimed.

Lets say we do come up with some objective criteria to measure greatness, which we all agree upon. With that piece in place we can gather data from all the various nations of the globe, and rank them all from greatest to worst in a rigorous and indisputable way based on these criteria.

Now its perfectly possible that the USA does not rank first on this list. There's nothing unpatriotic or anti-americanism in that statement - its just a genuine possibility.

Now imagine that such an unthinkable scenario occurs - some other nation is quantifiably greater than the USA. What implication does this have for all of you who place such importance on greatness?

Well... for starters, it seems like you ought to redirect any and all of your patriotic sentiments and nationalistic pride from the USA to whatever nation ranks at the top of that list.

For if the USA were to rank anything other than #1 on the list, it would be admitting that the USA wasn't the greatest nation on earth. And if you admit that the USA isn't the greatest nation on earth, then you can't be patriot, a true american, one who shares values with other Americans, etc.

Now on my point of view, I expressed that I was loyal to this country and I listed a couple of the reasons why. Now, even if the USA ranked 10th or 100th on this "greatness" list, it would not affect my position of loyalty one bit - my loyalty to the USA isn't based on some greatness ranking, relative to the rest of the world. Its based on a lot of things to be sure, but that definitely ain't it.

So it appears I am the truest most, patriotic citizen here. :)



On America as a force for good in the world, you've written the following in response to this:

So, you partially disagree with the idea that America murders innocents, but only partially.


Basically what I said amounts to nothing more than saying his opinion isn't dismissible out of hand. Which it isn't. In the end it may not be accurate, I don't know... but it has to be addressed.

It's not impossible (maybe not even unlikely) that the USA has directly and/or indirectly killed innocent people without just cause (ie, murdered them). That's just a harsh fact, not anti-americanism.



Wilbur, what it comes down to is that you are the kind of guy who only takes a position when it's safe. The kind of man of whom Edmund Burke spoke when he said, "the only condition necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Not a monster, just an enabler of monsters.

I strive to take positions only when I have good and justifiable reasons to take them. Most people don't do this - for some reason its culturally OK or even admirable to take a stand for something when you don't even know what the hell your talking about and have little-to-no good justifications for the position you maintain.

I get it.. to most people, expressing uncertainty - even when the situation demands it - is considered wishy-washy and weak. But it's a bad habit that we need to break.

Sonnabend
10-07-2010, 12:34 AM
No. I've told you repeatedly to start a new thread if you want to talk about this stuff. The mods have as well. It's childish, absurd, and rude (to say the least) to hijack every single thread I participate with your crazy ass accusations and rants about global warming.

So if you want to talk global warming or whatever else, go start a thread. There's a little button down there at the bottom that says "New Thread". Learn to use it.

I did. Waiting for you to reply.

Still.

Odysseus
10-07-2010, 10:49 AM
Nah... my responses surely have touched some nerves though.... plural.
If your response had touched anything, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's your repeated attempts at evading the central question that are so revealing.


Well, I've thought about this some more, and have found another little odd aspect of "the question" that reveals yet another way in which the question is poorly aimed.
Again, you spend far more thought evading the question than answering it. Your SAT essays must have been a hoot.


Lets say we do come up with some objective criteria to measure greatness, which we all agree upon. With that piece in place we can gather data from all the various nations of the globe, and rank them all from greatest to worst in a rigorous and indisputable way based on these criteria.

Now its perfectly possible that the USA does not rank first on this list. There's nothing unpatriotic or anti-americanism in that statement - its just a genuine possibility.

Now imagine that such an unthinkable scenario occurs - some other nation is quantifiably greater than the USA. What implication does this have for all of you who place such importance on greatness?

Well... for starters, it seems like you ought to redirect any and all of your patriotic sentiments and nationalistic pride from the USA to whatever nation ranks at the top of that list.

For if the USA were to rank anything other than #1 on the list, it would be admitting that the USA wasn't the greatest nation on earth. And if you admit that the USA isn't the greatest nation on earth, then you can't be patriot, a true american, one who shares values with other Americans, etc.

Now on my point of view, I expressed that I was loyal to this country and I listed a couple of the reasons why. Now, even if the USA ranked 10th or 100th on this "greatness" list, it would not affect my position of loyalty one bit - my loyalty to the USA isn't based on some greatness ranking, relative to the rest of the world. Its based on a lot of things to be sure, but that definitely ain't it.

So it appears I am the truest most, patriotic citizen here. :)
No, it appears that you're spinning like a Dervish on crack.

First, the question does not demand an objective standard of greatness. It asks your opinion of what constitutes it. Unless you believe that your opinion must, by definition, be objective, this is a straw man argument, one of many. Second, if your subjective criteria do put the US behind another country, then the answer is that you, not us, not me, just you, have a conflict regarding how you feel that you should place your loyalties. This would, of course, indicate that your values place you outside of the American mainstream, since most Americans consider America to be exceptional and the greatest nation. There's a reason that Reagan referred to us as a "shining city on a hill" and the "last best hope for mankind." Finally, your assumption that admitting that you consider another nation greater than the US doesn't necessarily mean that you are not loyal to the US, it just means that lack a belief in American exceptionalism and that you consider us one nation among many, rather than the best. This doesn't necessarily make you disloyal, but it does bring into question why you would feel loyalty to the US above all other nations, if you didn't value the US above all other nations.

And ultimately, that's what you're trying to avoid saying, isn't it? That you feel some affection for America, but that it doesn't hold the primary place in your heart? It's okay for you to feel that way, but it means that you have a radically different attitude towards our nation and its institutions than most of us.


Basically what I said amounts to nothing more than saying his opinion isn't dismissible out of hand. Which it isn't. In the end it may not be accurate, I don't know... but it has to be addressed.

It's not impossible (maybe not even unlikely) that the USA has directly and/or indirectly killed innocent people without just cause (ie, murdered them). That's just a harsh fact, not anti-americanism.
Every country has killed innocents at one time or another. I only need to point to Waco and Ruby Ridge to get assent on that point on this board. But that's not the point and you know it. The point is that, among nations, America is no different from any other nation in the eyes of Wei, and in many ways, morally inferior. This isn't surprising. He has a knack for creating or buying into absurd moral equivalences, which is why he can be outraged at an Israeli Soldier holding a weapon near a Palestinian child, but indifferent to the people who would strap explosives to that child and send him to blow himself and a few Israelis up. In your case, you have intellectualized yourself to the point where you feel uncomfortable expressing any patriotic sentiment without couching it in all sorts of caveats. You cannot bring yourself to list what you love about America without also listing what you hate. You refuse to see the glass as 9/10 full, and make demand that we also focus, with equal intensity, on the 1/10 that is empty.


I strive to take positions only when I have good and justifiable reasons to take them. Most people don't do this - for some reason its culturally OK or even admirable to take a stand for something when you don't even know what the hell your talking about and have little-to-no good justifications for the position you maintain.
But you take positions that are based on poor and unjustifiable reasons all the time. You just don't see it that way. Your take on religion, gay marriage and the Ground Zero mosque, to name a few, are based on your assumptions that there can be no rational reason to hold a position opposite yours, and that anyone who does can be dismissed as a dupe or a bigot. The fact that you won't listen to the other side doesn't make it wrong, it just proves that you are arrogant and self-righteous, and when someone as arrogant and self-righteous as you are ducks a question as simple and obvious as this one, then there's more going on than simple lack of knowledge.


I get it.. to most people, expressing uncertainty - even when the situation demands it - is considered wishy-washy and weak. But it's a bad habit that we need to break.
You haven't expressed uncertainty. You haven't come out and said that you don't know if you consider America the greatest nation in the world, or exceptional, you've tap-danced around any answer because you are uncomfortable admitting that you don't feel it. Whether that discomfort comes from your concerns about how we will react to it, or from your internal conflicts about your feelings for your country, it's pretty obvious that it's there.

Sonnabend
10-07-2010, 12:40 PM
You haven't come out and said that you don't know if you consider America the greatest nation in the world, or exceptional, you've tap-danced around any answer because you are uncomfortable admitting that you don't feel it

wilbur has a major issue with those three words, Major. he can't, or won't, say them.

wilbur
10-07-2010, 02:37 PM
First, the question does not demand an objective standard of greatness.

I'll keep this short since I'be already driven the point into the ground.... "Greatness" is ambiguous - especially when we're judging nations. So if you want it to be meaningful, you need a standard of greatness that both parties share. It needs at least that much.



It asks your opinion of what constitutes it.


Nope. It asks point blank: "Is the USA the greatest country on Earth?" - as if there is some implied standard of greatness which the questioner and questionee share and by which one can measure nations.



Unless you believe that your opinion must, by definition, be objective, this is a straw man argument, one of many. Second, if your subjective criteria do put the US behind another country, then the answer is that you, not us, not me, just you, have a conflict regarding how you feel that you should place your loyalties. This would, of course, indicate that your values place you outside of the American mainstream, since most Americans consider America to be exceptional and the greatest nation. There's a reason that Reagan referred to us as a "shining city on a hill" and the "last best hope for mankind." Finally, your assumption that admitting that you consider another nation greater than the US doesn't necessarily mean that you are not loyal to the US, it just means that lack a belief in American exceptionalism and that you consider us one nation among many, rather than the best. This doesn't necessarily make you disloyal, but it does bring into question why you would feel loyalty to the US above all other nations, if you didn't value the US above all other nations.


Loyalty is devotion, and I don't think devotion is normally conditional upon the object of that devotion being "great".

So what about the people of Latvia? Can they call their nation the greatest one on Earth? Do you think they should be patriotic and loyal? Do you think they have to value their country less, because the United States is greater, in your opinion? Of course not. See how stupid this is yet?



And ultimately, that's what you're trying to avoid saying, isn't it? That you feel some affection for America, but that it doesn't hold the primary place in your heart? It's okay for you to feel that way, but it means that you have a radically different attitude towards our nation and its institutions than most of us.

Its not about avoiding - I've openly been saying the whole time how this is my home, its where my loyalties lie, and that I care for the well-being of this nation more so than any other. But apparently, that's not important...

CaughtintheMiddle1990
10-07-2010, 04:07 PM
I'll keep this short since I'be already driven the point into the ground.... "Greatness" is ambiguous - especially when we're judging nations. So if you want it to be meaningful, you need a standard of greatness that both parties share. It needs at least that much.



Nope. It asks point blank: "Is the USA the greatest country on Earth?" - as if there is some implied standard of greatness which the questioner and questionee share and by which one can measure nations.



Loyalty is devotion, and I don't think devotion is normally conditional upon the object of that devotion being "great".

So what about the people of Latvia? Can they call their nation the greatest one on Earth? Do you think they should be patriotic and loyal? Do you think they have to value their country less, because the United States is greater, in your opinion? Of course not. See how stupid this is yet?



Its not about avoiding - I've openly been saying the whole time how this is my home, its where my loyalties lie, and that I care for the well-being of this nation more so than any other. But apparently, that's not important...

But you'd love it even more if it was Atheistic and Communist, wouldn't you Wilbur?

Hawkgirl
10-07-2010, 05:36 PM
Exactly, it depends on what you mean by great. Military force? Happiness of the people? Personal freedom? Noble acts? Cultural influence via hollywood?


This sounds a lot like "what the meaning of is is?


Seriously, Webster is your friend.

KhrushchevsShoe
10-07-2010, 08:09 PM
I try not to buy into any "America is #1" bullshit, because once people start believing that it gets kind of dangrous.

Hawkgirl
10-07-2010, 08:30 PM
I try not to buy into any "America is #1" bullshit, because once people start believing that it gets kind of dangrous.


Liberals are so predicatable.

Rockntractor
10-07-2010, 08:55 PM
I try not to buy into any "America is #1" bullshit, because once people start believing that it gets kind of dangrous.

Are you able to get dressed by yourself?:confused:

Jfor
10-07-2010, 10:28 PM
I try not to buy into any "America is #1" bullshit, because once people start believing that it gets kind of dangrous.

You and your ilk are the reason America is where we are right now. Trying to become not the greatest country on earth, but just one of many.

Wei Wu Wei
10-07-2010, 10:30 PM
In order to prosper as a nation, we need uber-nationalism. A formula that has NEVER FAILED AND NEVER WILL FAIL.

God Bless America? More Like America Bless God.


USA USA USA USA

Sonnabend
10-08-2010, 01:46 AM
We dont want to know where.

Just what it is you teach.

Odysseus
10-08-2010, 02:06 PM
I'll keep this short since I'be already driven the point into the ground.... "Greatness" is ambiguous - especially when we're judging nations. So if you want it to be meaningful, you need a standard of greatness that both parties share. It needs at least that much.

Nope. It asks point blank: "Is the USA the greatest country on Earth?" - as if there is some implied standard of greatness which the questioner and questionee share and by which one can measure nations.

For someone who considers himself an intellectual, you sure have trouble reading a simple sentence. The opening post in this thread asks: Do you believe America is the greatest country on earth? Do you believe in American exceptionalism? There is nothing about you and the questioner having the same standard of greatness. This is entirely about your beliefs, something that you are usually not shy about putting out, especially since you consider them the holy writ of the Church of Wilbur. This is the question that you are ducking. What's the matter, Wilbur? Are you an atheist on this subject as well, or are you hiding your beliefs behind a phony agnosticism?


Loyalty is devotion, and I don't think devotion is normally conditional upon the object of that devotion being "great".
So, you're saying that you are "devoted" to America, but do not think that it's great? Is that what you're trying to avoid saying?

So what about the people of Latvia? Can they call their nation the greatest one on Earth? Do you think they should be patriotic and loyal? Do you think they have to value their country less, because the United States is greater, in your opinion? Of course not. See how stupid this is yet?
The people of Latvia are perfectly within their rights to think that their country is the greatest. They're Latvians. I'd be surprised if they didn't. Again, we're not arguing the objective standards of greatness, we're talking about what you believe constitutes greatness, and whether you believe that the US is first among nations in meeting that standard.


Its not about avoiding - I've openly been saying the whole time how this is my home, its where my loyalties lie, and that I care for the well-being of this nation more so than any other. But apparently, that's not important...
It's not in this context. If I asked you what time it was, and you gave me a dissertation on how the time is determined by the rotation of the Earth and our breaking that down into 24 intervals and 60 sub-intervals, I'd say that you had failed to answer the question. The other information is nice to know, but it doesn't answer the fundamental question, now does it? The mental gymnastics that you're doing to evade giving a straight answer would have put Olga Korbut in traction.

I try not to buy into any "America is #1" bullshit, because once people start believing that it gets kind of dangrous.
Funny, but I don't see patriotism as being as dangerous and disdain for one's own country. Patriots built the Atomic bomb, but it took someone who loathed America to put it in the hands of Stalin.

In order to prosper as a nation, we need uber-nationalism. A formula that has NEVER FAILED AND NEVER WILL FAIL.

God Bless America? More Like America Bless God.

USA USA USA USA
Wei, you continue to answer the question, and many more, in ways that demonstrate just how morally crippled you are. Seriously, what subject do you teach?

Zafod
10-08-2010, 06:20 PM
In order to prosper as a nation, we need uber-nationalism. A formula that has NEVER FAILED AND NEVER WILL FAIL.

God Bless America? More Like America Bless God.


USA USA USA USA

the more you post the more I get the feeling you are nothing but a 19 year old community college brat.....

isnt there a coffee house you need to be at for some poetry slam or somthing?

Big Guy
10-08-2010, 06:40 PM
I try not to buy into any "America is #1" bullshit, because once people start believing that it gets kind of dangrous.

You are correct, it does get kind of dangerous. I gets kinda dangerous for enemy nations, that is if they want to threaten us.

Odysseus
10-08-2010, 07:56 PM
You are correct, it does get kind of dangerous. I gets kinda dangerous for enemy nations, that is if they want to threaten us.

But if Shoe's sympathies lie primarily with our enemies, then that is dangerous in his view.

Big Guy
10-08-2010, 08:12 PM
But if Shoe's sympathies lie primarily with our enemies, then that is dangerous in his view.

Then, let Him/Her/It view the danger. The USA would be better off for it.

KhrushchevsShoe
10-09-2010, 04:27 AM
Because if we dont constantly remind ourselves that were the best and everyone else is inferior it only boldens our enemies*. Like imagine if we stopped bombing them? Boy would they be mad.

*The mentioning of our enemies gest me every time. If the USA is so superior to everyone else it doesnt make much sense that you worry about us projecting threat onto goat-herders in Afghanistan. Unless of course you're more scared of them than they are scared of you, hard to claim the USA is the best when you think of it that way.

Rockntractor
10-09-2010, 09:23 AM
Because if we dont constantly remind ourselves that were the best and everyone else is inferior it only boldens our enemies*. Like imagine if we stopped bombing them? Boy would they be mad.

*The mentioning of our enemies gest me every time. If the USA is so superior to everyone else it doesnt make much sense that you worry about us projecting threat onto goat-herders in Afghanistan. Unless of course you're more scared of them than they are scared of you, hard to claim the USA is the best when you think of it that way.
How many years were you in first grade?

Big Guy
10-09-2010, 09:58 AM
Because if we dont constantly remind ourselves that were the best and everyone else is inferior it only boldens our enemies*. Like imagine if we stopped bombing them? Boy would they be mad.

*The mentioning of our enemies gest me every time. If the USA is so superior to everyone else it doesnt make much sense that you worry about us projecting threat onto goat-herders in Afghanistan. Unless of course you're more scared of them than they are scared of you, hard to claim the USA is the best when you think of it that way.


Have you ever been to Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan or any other 3rd world country? Just what makes you think that the whole country is Goat Herders? Are you just STUPID?

Wei Wu Wei
10-09-2010, 12:06 PM
Lets see how many heads that post flies over before someone catches it

Odysseus
10-09-2010, 12:47 PM
Because if we dont constantly remind ourselves that were the best and everyone else is inferior it only boldens our enemies*. Like imagine if we stopped bombing them? Boy would they be mad.
No, we have to remind ourselves of our nation's greatness so that our people will understand that it is worth defending. If, instead, we focus solely on our defects and flaws, as you, Wilbur and Wei prefer, the American people become disheartened and lose faith in America, which is what you want.

BTW, we never bombed Afghanistan before 9/11. In fact, we were the number one provider of humanitarian aid, even when the Taliban was in power. In 2000 alone, we provided over $100 million in food. That didn't stop them from providing support for al Qaeda when they murdered 3,000 of us, or providing them with a safe haven after the fact. Our enemies hate us for the same reason that you hate your neighbors, because we are a great nation that stands in the way of petty tyrants.

*The mentioning of our enemies gest me every time. If the USA is so superior to everyone else it doesnt make much sense that you worry about us projecting threat onto goat-herders in Afghanistan. Unless of course you're more scared of them than they are scared of you, hard to claim the USA is the best when you think of it that way.
Osama Bin Laden never herded goats in his life. Ayman al Zawahiri is an MD. Mohammed Atta had a degree in urban planning. Our enemies aren't goat herders. They are men of means who see us as the primary obstacle to their goal of reestablishing a global caliphate, just as the Soviets saw us as the primary obstacle to their goal of global communism.

Our enemies tacitly admit that we are the greatest nation in the world, which is why they target us.

Lets see how many heads that post flies over before someone catches it
Are you ever going to tell us what subject you debase and distort in the classroom?