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View Full Version : Calif top court: Docs can't withhold care to gays



Space Gravy
08-20-2008, 09:38 AM
Calif top court: Docs can't withhold care to gays

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- California's highest court on Monday barred doctors from invoking their religious beliefs as a reason to deny treatment to gays and lesbians, ruling that state law prohibiting sexual orientation discrimination extends to the medical profession.

Justice Joyce Kennard wrote that two Christian fertility doctors who refused to artificially inseminate a lesbian have neither a free speech right nor a religious exemption from the state's law, which "imposes on business establishments certain antidiscrimination obligations."

In the lawsuit that led to the ruling, Guadalupe Benitez, 36, of Oceanside said that the doctors treated her with fertility drugs and instructed her how to inseminate herself at home but told her their beliefs prevented them from inseminating her. One of the doctors referred her to another fertility specialist without moral objections, and Benitez has since given birth to three children.

Nevertheless, Benitez in 2001 sued the Vista-based North Coast Women's Care Medical Group. She and her lawyers successfully argued that a state law prohibiting businesses from discriminating based on sexual orientation applies to doctors.

The law was originally designed to prevent hotels, restaurants and other public services from refusing to serve patrons because of their race. The Legislature has since expanded it to cover characteristics such as age and sexual orientation.

Link (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LESBIAN_INSEMINATION?SITE=AP)

Gingersnap
08-20-2008, 11:10 AM
While no medical person should be able to withold treatment of a disease or injury, this case seems like a different type of thing completely.

Fertility treatments are like cosmetic surgery: you may want it but you certainly aren't going to die without and if you get it, you may create medical complications for yourself.

Ultimately, this will be another equality by subtraction thing where some docs will simply refuse to deal with fertility issues completely to avoid the fallout.

Eyelids
08-20-2008, 11:39 AM
What pathetic excuses for doctors.

noonwitch
08-20-2008, 11:54 AM
Here's what I don't get-they live in California. I can't believe that they just couldn't find a different doctor who was willing to do artificial insemination. Before anyone (eyelids) says the choice of doctors has to do with insurance, well, I highly doubt that anyone's insurance covers artificial insemination to begin with, so the couple is paying cash for the procedure.

So, instead of looking to find a doctor who will perform the procedure, they choose to use the courts to force unwilling doctors to do it, in a state that should have hundreds of doctors who are willing to do it.

Elspeth
08-20-2008, 12:17 PM
Here's what I don't get-they live in California. I can't believe that they just couldn't find a different doctor who was willing to do artificial insemination. Before anyone (eyelids) says the choice of doctors has to do with insurance, well, I highly doubt that anyone's insurance covers artificial insemination to begin with, so the couple is paying cash for the procedure.

So, instead of looking to find a doctor who will perform the procedure, they choose to use the courts to force unwilling doctors to do it, in a state that should have hundreds of doctors who are willing to do it.

Actually, they did get another doctor to do the procedure, but sued the first one for discrimination anyway.

LogansPapa
08-20-2008, 12:24 PM
Here's what I don't get-they live in California. I can't believe that they just couldn't find a different doctor who was willing to do artificial insemination.

(+1):cool:

Eyelids
08-20-2008, 12:28 PM
Actually, they did get another doctor to do the procedure, but sued the first one for discrimination anyway.

Good for them, expose the bastards and make them pay.

M21
08-20-2008, 12:36 PM
Shoving their Godless agenda down our throats. Where's their respect for others that they demand?

Hundred of secular humanist Docs would do what they asked but no they go search out the handful of God fearing men and women who won't with their lawyers in tow.

Disgusting.

noonwitch
08-20-2008, 01:14 PM
Good for them, expose the bastards and make them pay.


If they had been denied a genuine medical treatment, I'd agree with you. But they weren't, so I don't see how they are entitled to any kind of settlement. Hurt feelings should never be a basis for a cash settlement.

LogansPapa
08-20-2008, 01:19 PM
Good for them, expose the bastards and make them pay.

Doctors are business people. It should be their business who they serve - less emergencies.

wilbur
08-20-2008, 05:59 PM
Shoving their Godless agenda down our throats. Where's their respect for others that they demand?

Hundred of secular humanist Docs would do what they asked but no they go search out the handful of God fearing men and women who won't with their lawyers in tow.

Disgusting.

Where does it say they are "Godless"?

Cold Warrior
08-20-2008, 06:04 PM
Where does it say they are "Godless"?

All homosexuals are godless, don't ya' know. Because, like, you know, God HATES FAGS! Don't ya' know. :rolleyes:

M21
08-20-2008, 06:05 PM
Where does it say they are "Godless"?I said it since they didn’t respect the religious freedom of conscious of the Doctors. Why would one believer compel by force another to act against their conscience? Especially when alternatives are available. They wouldn't.

LogansPapa
08-20-2008, 06:06 PM
Is that "Christian Godless", or...........?

M21
08-20-2008, 06:07 PM
All homosexuals are godless, don't ya' know. Because, like, you know, God HATES FAGS! Don't ya' know. :rolleyes:Sorry, I thought he asked me.

M21
08-20-2008, 06:09 PM
Is that "Christian Godless", or...........?or the godless who force others to perform acts against their conscience?

JB
08-20-2008, 06:25 PM
What pathetic excuses for doctors.I'll play.

How so?

Eyelids
08-20-2008, 06:27 PM
I'll play.

Who the fuck are you?

JB
08-20-2008, 06:30 PM
Who the fuck are you?LMAO. I'm your daddy. Now stop threadjacking.

How are they "pathetic excuses for doctors"?

Gingersnap
08-20-2008, 08:09 PM
LMAO. I'm your daddy. Now stop threadjacking.

How are they "pathetic excuses for doctors"?

Ask him to explain why fertility treatments are significantly different than cosmetic surgery type treatments for women. Almost any woman under 35 can conceive a baby if she cares to try. If she doesn't care to try, well, what of it?

Cold Warrior
08-20-2008, 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by JB
I'll play.
Who the fuck are you?

Be careful there kid. JB is a man of taste and sophistication (like some others I might know). He truly understands the value of professional wrestling, EPL, and cycling. The man's got class. :D

wilbur
08-20-2008, 08:36 PM
or the godless who force others to perform acts against their conscience?

So should we then let Muslim nurses refuse to uncover or wash their arms since it offends their religious modesty (while working in a hospital)? Would that be "Godless"?

Your statement is quite broad... coercing someone to act against their conscience is something that is done regularly by religious and non-religious alike. However, what it has to do with "Godlessness" I do not know.

Space Gravy
08-20-2008, 09:00 PM
I'm having a hard time mustering up sympathy for the doctors. I also don't feel bad for the pharmacists in the news once a year or so who will refuse to administer birth control or a morning after pill. They know, full well, that's it's a reasonable possibility by choosing this vocation it might put them at odds, or in contact with those that don't share their faith.

Zeus
08-20-2008, 09:17 PM
I'm having a hard time mustering up sympathy for the doctors. I also don't feel bad for the pharmacists in the news once a year or so who will refuse to administer birth control or a morning after pill. They know, full well, that's it's a reasonable possibility by choosing this vocation it might put them at odds, or in contact with those that don't share their faith.

What about the concept of referrals ? that a big no no ?

There are certain floor plans I refuse to build because in my opinion they are crap. Should I be forced to build them anyway instead of referring the client to a different contractor If I can't convince them the FP is crap ?

M21
08-20-2008, 10:12 PM
I'm having a hard time mustering up sympathy for the doctors. I also don't feel bad for the pharmacists in the news once a year or so who will refuse to administer birth control or a morning after pill. They know, full well, that's it's a reasonable possibility by choosing this vocation it might put them at odds, or in contact with those that don't share their faith.I tend consider the Doc who for example has been practicing for 40 years and because of a recent change in the law is required to perform a procedure he is fundamentally opposed to. He or She is now required to perform the procedure for all or no one with no Grandfathering.

Ultimately I guess they could stop practicing any medicine that might cause them to have to compromise and I suppose some will.

Goldwater
08-20-2008, 10:26 PM
I tend consider the Doc who for example has been practicing for 40 years and because of a recent change in the law is required to perform a procedure he is fundamentally opposed to. He or She is now required to perform the procedure for all or no one with no Grandfathering.

You know this is different from abortion...

Gingersnap
08-20-2008, 10:27 PM
You know this is different from abortion...

Because it's so similar to plastic surgery?

Goldwater
08-20-2008, 10:42 PM
Because it's so similar to plastic surgery?

Well, thats a procedure which is decided on by the patient themself.

Space Gravy
08-21-2008, 07:35 AM
What about the concept of referrals ? that a big no no ?

There are certain floor plans I refuse to build because in my opinion they are crap. Should I be forced to build them anyway instead of referring the client to a different contractor If I can't convince them the FP is crap ?

Not really a good comparison.

You refuse to build that floor plan for EVERYONE.

I'm under the impression from the article they refused to perform this procedure for a certain population group but will for others. That's the problem I have with it.

Sonnabend
08-21-2008, 08:08 AM
Well, thats a procedure which is decided on by the patient themself.

Uh, plastic surgery includes reconstruction, "boob jobs" for women who have radical mastectomies, other cosmetic repairs. Easy on the broad brush, some "cosmetic surgery" is optional, yes, but not all plastic surgery..not by a long chalk.

A plastic surgery repair for a cleft palate isn't a life threatening issue, and you could argue it is "optional"..I'd argue that it's essential surgery.

biccat
08-21-2008, 08:11 AM
Well, thats a procedure which is decided on by the patient themself.
So how is it different from an abortion?

Goldwater
08-21-2008, 09:13 AM
Uh, plastic surgery includes reconstruction, "boob jobs" for women who have radical mastectomies, other cosmetic repairs. Easy on the broad brush, some "cosmetic surgery" is optional, yes, but not all plastic surgery..not by a long chalk.

A plastic surgery repair for a cleft palate isn't a life threatening issue, and you could argue it is "optional"..I'd argue that it's essential surgery.

Hey I'm not saying there aren't times when it is a needed operation, I'm saying abortion is different in regards that sometimes two lives are involved.

Gingersnap
08-21-2008, 10:03 AM
Uh, plastic surgery includes reconstruction, "boob jobs" for women who have radical mastectomies, other cosmetic repairs. Easy on the broad brush, some "cosmetic surgery" is optional, yes, but not all plastic surgery..not by a long chalk.

A plastic surgery repair for a cleft palate isn't a life threatening issue, and you could argue it is "optional"..I'd argue that it's essential surgery.

I'm not talking about reconstructive plastic surgery and you know it. I already specified that docs can't refuse to treat an injury or illness. Women who refuse to mate in the ordinary way and then whine about their lack of offspring aren't ill or injured - they have made a conscious choice to self-select themselves out of the gene pool.

I really don't see why docs should be forced to treat them for what is a willful decision that will have fewer medical ramifications than successful IVF.

wilbur
08-21-2008, 10:54 AM
I'm not talking about reconstructive plastic surgery and you know it. I already specified that docs can't refuse to treat an injury or illness. Women who refuse to mate in the ordinary way and then whine about their lack of offspring aren't ill or injured - they have made a conscious choice to self-select themselves out of the gene pool.

I really don't see why docs should be forced to treat them for what is a willful decision that will have fewer medical ramifications than successful IVF.

Why would one define homosexuality as the "willful decision to refuse to mate in the ordinary way"? When you look this situation at it is... in the vein of religious or racial discrimination, the problem becomes apparent.

JB
08-21-2008, 05:11 PM
Be careful there kid. JB is a man of taste and sophistication (like some others I might know). He truly understands the value of professional wrestling, EPL, and cycling. The man's got class. :DJust don't think because we drink the same Scotch and smoke the same cigars that I'm suddenly going to start rooting for ManU.

Now I'm threadjacking.

Cold Warrior
08-21-2008, 06:45 PM
Just don't think because we drink the same Scotch and smoke the same cigars that I'm suddenly going to start rooting for ManU. :eek::eek:

Now I'm threadjacking.

I should certainly hope not. A man of your taste and appreciation of the beautiful game could never support a team that plays such a clodding brand of football. :D

/end threadjack

Gingersnap
08-21-2008, 08:43 PM
Why would one define homosexuality as the "willful decision to refuse to mate in the ordinary way"? When you look this situation at it is... in the vein of religious or racial discrimination, the problem becomes apparent.

When I look at this situation biologically, I see it for what it is. Nobody has some kind of "right" to reproduce when they refuse to mate, let their 'best by' go by, or otherwise thwart Nature.

I cannot have children myself so I'm not exactly unfamiliar with the other options. If people can afford fertility treatments, overseas adoptions, surrogates, etc. - I have no problem with that. Forcing medical people to provide a completely unnecessary treatment against their will is just wrong in this type of case.

wilbur
08-22-2008, 11:38 AM
When I look at this situation biologically, I see it for what it is. Nobody has some kind of "right" to reproduce when they refuse to mate, let their 'best by' go by, or otherwise thwart Nature.

I cannot have children myself so I'm not exactly unfamiliar with the other options. If people can afford fertility treatments, overseas adoptions, surrogates, etc. - I have no problem with that. Forcing medical people to provide a completely unnecessary treatment against their will is just wrong in this type of case.

Would you say a couple may have been justified in suing had the doctor refused treatment simply because they are black? The procedure being elective really doesnt have anything to do with it.

biccat
08-22-2008, 12:03 PM
Would you say a couple may have been justified in suing had the doctor refused treatment simply because they are black? The procedure being elective really doesnt have anything to do with it.
Would you say the suit was justified if the woman was on birth control pills?

If any form of discrimination is wrong...

wilbur
08-22-2008, 12:28 PM
Would you say the suit was justified if the woman was on birth control pills?

If any form of discrimination is wrong...

That would be a medical contraindication.

If a doctor refused to treat a woman for some unrelated condition because she also took birth control pills (and his 'moral compass' considers them murder weapons) that would be unfair discrimination in my book.

4jacks
08-22-2008, 01:20 PM
With 5,402 post

I'll play.

How so?

With 827 post

Who the fuck are you?

This forum is priceless!!!!

Gingersnap
08-22-2008, 01:26 PM
And they're all pretty much like this one. :D

4jacks
08-22-2008, 01:42 PM
And they're all pretty much like this one. :D

Actually that time I meant the entire website, I think I mispoke, I should of pluarized it. "these forums are priceless"

Gingersnap
08-22-2008, 01:45 PM
Actually that time I meant the entire website, I think I mispoke, I should of pluarized it. "these forums are priceless"

We do try to have a good time.

Well, time to turn this thread back over to the soulless atheists and the heartless xians. ;)

LogansPapa
08-22-2008, 01:55 PM
Well, time to turn this thread back over to the soulless atheists and the heartless xians. ;)

What about us embittered agnostics? :(

Gingersnap
08-22-2008, 02:02 PM
What about us embittered agnostics? :(

Oh, yeah - embittered agnostics are always welcome although you guys do tend to bring the cheap beer. :D

LogansPapa
08-22-2008, 02:09 PM
Mean Mommy. :cool: