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Molon Labe
08-21-2008, 12:59 PM
There's hope...the publisher isn't backing down.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3466


Serbia: Book withdrawn for being insult to Muslims


Belgrade, 18 August (AKI) - The Islamic Community in Serbia said on Monday it was not satisfied with the withdrawal of Sherry Jones’ novel, The Jewel of Medina, from the country's bookshops.

Referring to the book released by Belgrade publisher Beobuk three weeks ago, the organisation's leader Muamer Zukorlic said it was "offensive to Muslims" and demanded all of the published copies be handed in.

He also called for director Aleksandar Jasic to repent for what he had done.

After an initial complaint from the Islamic community, Jasic apologised saying the company "had no intention of insulting Muslims in Serbia" and announced the book would not be available in any bookstore in the country.

But Zukorlic said on Monday that this was not enough.

"Jasic needs to sincerely repent because of the incident he caused," Zukorlic said.

Zukorlic has already compared The Jewel of Medina with the Mohammed cartoon controversy in Denmark.

The Danish cartoons, deemed offensive to Islam, led to worldwide protests when they were first printed in September 2005.

"Obviously someone wishes to join the ranks of those who produced the cartoons in Denmark several years ago and it is an insult to all Muslims of the world, especially for us here in Serbia," said Mufti Zukorlic.

The book was due to have a world premier in Serbia, since its US publisher decided against selling the book fearing the reaction of radical Muslims.

Jasic explained that Macedonia, Croatia, Spain and France had also bought the rights for the book.

The novel is a love story about the life of Aisha, the seventh wife of the Islam prophet Mohammed, and follows her life from her betrothal to the prophet when she was six-years-old.

According to the novel, Aisha was Mohammed’s favourite wife and he died in her arms.

Teetop
08-21-2008, 01:24 PM
Wasn't it a New York city museum that had the jar of piss with a bible in it? I have been wondering if I made the same "art", if that museum would let me diplay my jar of piss with a koran in it?

:confused:

Molon Labe
08-21-2008, 02:06 PM
Wasn't it a New York city museum that had the jar of piss with a bible in it? I have been wondering if I made the same "art", if that museum would let me diplay my jar of piss with a koran in it?

:confused:

Yeah...but you wouldn't live for long afterward. :p
That's the difference between a Christian and a Muslim.

LogansPapa
08-21-2008, 02:12 PM
History is cyclonic. In 16th Century Spain they’d have made fahitas out of your testicles for that Bible display. The Islamic faith got stuck nine centuries ago and the people never recovered. In a hundred years the other side will take Jerusalem .

The Night Owl
08-21-2008, 02:19 PM
The Great Desecration

Category: Godlessness • Religion
Posted on: July 24, 2008 2:00 PM, by PZ Myers

It is finished.

I wonder how many of our Catholic friends have heard of the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215? This is the event where many of their important dogmas were codified, including the ideas of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, that the Eucharist was the sacrament that only properly ordained priests of the Catholic church could give, and that the Jews were a pariah people, who could hold no public office, had to pay a special Jew tax for their right to exist, and were required to wear special clothing to distinguish them from Christians. The yellow badge marking the Juden was not an invention of the Nazis, but a decree by faithful Catholics in the Middle Ages. That's an interesting juxtaposition, that a symbol of Christian exceptionalism was formalized at the same time that they formally decreed the Jews to be inferior, and a target of hatred.

...

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/the_great_desecration.php#more

Cold Warrior
08-21-2008, 02:25 PM
It's surprising that the Serbs, of all peoples, are reacting in this rather apologetic manner. They've always regarded themselves as the first bulwark of civilized Europe against the Turkish (Muslim) hordes. That's why Kosovo is so important to the Serbs as it was the site of their defeat (oddly enough) by the Turks in 1389.

wilbur
08-21-2008, 02:29 PM
The Great Desecration

Category: Godlessness • Religion
Posted on: July 24, 2008 2:00 PM, by PZ Myers

It is finished.

I wonder how many of our Catholic friends have heard of the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215? This is the event where many of their important dogmas were codified, including the ideas of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, that the Eucharist was the sacrament that only properly ordained priests of the Catholic church could give, and that the Jews were a pariah people, who could hold no public office, had to pay a special Jew tax for their right to exist, and were required to wear special clothing to distinguish them from Christians. The yellow badge marking the Juden was not an invention of the Nazis, but a decree by faithful Catholics in the Middle Ages. That's an interesting juxtaposition, that a symbol of Christian exceptionalism was formalized at the same time that they formally decreed the Jews to be inferior, and a target of hatred.

...

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/the_great_desecration.php#more

I generally find PZ annoying and well, not all that interesting, but this was brilliant!

biccat
08-21-2008, 02:49 PM
I wonder how many of our Catholic friends have heard of the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215?
So the actions of 13th century Christians are an excuse for 21st century Muslims to chop off the heads of Christians?

Zafod
08-21-2008, 02:58 PM
Fuck the muzzies.

wilbur
08-21-2008, 03:02 PM
So the actions of 13th century Christians are an excuse for 21st century Muslims to chop off the heads of Christians?

Read the article. It wasnt 13th century Christians sending him death threats for putting a rusty nail through a eucharist.

LogansPapa
08-21-2008, 03:05 PM
Another eyewitness account, by Raymond of Aguiles, not only corroborates the above account but conveys a sense of his own religious ecstasy at experiencing such a complete and total Christian victory:

Wonderful sights were to be seen. Some of our men (and this was more merciful) cut off the heads of their enemies; others shoot them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers; others tortured them longer by casting them into flames. Piles of heads, hands and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the Temple of Solomon, a place where religious services are normally chanted ... in the temple and the porch of Solomon, men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins. Indeed it was a just and splendid judgement of God that this place should be filled with the blood of unbelievers since it had suffered so long from their blasphemies.

A total of about 40,000 Muslims were killed in that two-day massacre of Jerusalem. [10] The Jews were murdered along with the Muslims, many were huddled into the synagogues and burned alive. Thus was Jerusalem saved by the Christians from infidel hands.

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/crusades.html

* When you're raised with accounts like these being taught to you from your earliest days it has to effect your culture, no?

Zafod
08-21-2008, 03:06 PM
again I say, fuck the muzzies

The Night Owl
08-21-2008, 03:53 PM
So the actions of 13th century Christians are an excuse for 21st century Muslims to chop off the heads of Christians?

No. If one considers desecration of religious symbols to be abuse, then Christians, to their credit, seem much better able to tolerate abuse than Muslims.

Rebel Yell
08-21-2008, 04:44 PM
No. If one considers desecration of religious symbols to be abuse, then Christians, to their credit, seem much better able to tolerate abuse than Muslims.

Let me bookmark this post.:eek: Never thought you'd take that high road.:D

hampshirebrit
08-21-2008, 04:51 PM
It's surprising that the Serbs, of all peoples, are reacting in this rather apologetic manner.

Not really ... they're bucking for EU membership.

biccat
08-21-2008, 05:26 PM
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/crusades.html

I just want to get this straight.

You piss on others when they cite websites like CBN to make a point, and then you cite a fucking geocities account to make yours?

What.

The.

Hell.

LogansPapa
08-21-2008, 05:35 PM
What.

The.

Hell.

http://www.gothpunk.com/images/chill.jpg

The Night Owl
08-21-2008, 05:38 PM
Read the article. It wasnt 13th century Christians sending him death threats for putting a rusty nail through a eucharist.

I have no doubt that for PZ Myers gets death threats from both Christians and Muslims but if I were him I would be most worried about the Muslims... and by a wide margin. Let's be honest... we all know which religion is at bat right now.

Consider the case of Swedish artist Lars Vilks. Vilks is known for having depicted Jesus as a child molester and Mohammed as a dog. Guess which depiction has led to him having to go into hiding for fear of his life.

Here is the test...

If you had to choose between desecrating the Koran before a crowd of Muslims or the Bible before a crowd of Christians, which would you choose? I know which one I would choose.

The Night Owl
08-21-2008, 05:40 PM
I generally find PZ annoying and well, not all that interesting, but this was brilliant!

Throwing The God Delusion in the trash along with the religious symbols was a nice touch just in case anyone was thinking that PZ Myers is playing a team sport.

nacho
08-21-2008, 05:50 PM
I generally find PZ annoying and well, not all that interesting, but this was brilliant!

PZ is a cheap attention whore. The same kind of person who'd eat dog dick to be on a reality show, except without the honesty to just do so.

Cold Warrior
08-21-2008, 06:32 PM
Not really ... they're bucking for EU membership.

Good catch! But the Romanians didn't change their policies regarding the Roma (at least not really).:D

LogansPapa
08-22-2008, 10:10 AM
again I say, fuck the muzzies

You can say that - but we must occupy their lands, one-by-one, and punish them for their cultural differences and dilute their historical values, at least until their oil is completely sucked from the ground.

After that - "fuck them" will be completely appropriate.

Reference our historical treatment of Indian reservations here in the States: Our government could care less about the most worthless land our leaders could come up with 150 years ago - well, at least until the price of uranium ore started to skyrocket.

Now all bets are off. :rolleyes:

AmPat
08-22-2008, 11:10 AM
According to the novel, Aisha was Mohammed’s favourite wife and he died in her arms. I'm a little rusty, was this the 8 year old one?:cool:

wilbur
08-22-2008, 01:30 PM
In the same vein as the PZ Meyers desecration of the Eucharist, I think we need an international holiday where everyone all over the world collectively desecrates Muslim religious texts, symbols and figures.

Of course, any religion could be fair game, but the primary purpose would be forcing the extremists that they have to get used to this sort of thing or forgo participating in a real society.

megimoo
08-22-2008, 03:01 PM
I have no doubt that for PZ Myers gets death threats from both Christians and Muslims but if I were him I would be most worried about the Muslims... and by a wide margin. Let's be honest... we all know which religion is at bat right now.

Consider the case of Swedish artist Lars Vilks. Vilks is known for having depicted Jesus as a child molester and Mohammed as a dog. Guess which depiction has led to him having to go into hiding for fear of his life.

Here is the test...

If you had to choose between desecrating the Koran before a crowd of Muslims or the Bible before a crowd of Christians, which would you choose? I know which one I would choose.It just proves what we all have been saying about you and your sister EyePuss !

megimoo
08-22-2008, 03:34 PM
In the same vein as the PZ Meyers desecration of the Eucharist, I think we need an international holiday where everyone all over the world collectively desecrates Muslim religious texts, symbols and figures.

Of course, any religion could be fair game, but the primary purpose would be forcing the extremists that they have to get used to this sort of thing or forgo participating in a real society.
Why don't you lead off Mc Duff ? Hire a bilboard ,Dearborn would be a good place with about 30,000 Islamic's you are sure to have a few callers ! leave your true name and address.desecrate Isalm,the Koran And Big Moe and wait for some action if youv'e the coins ?

megimoo
08-22-2008, 03:54 PM
The book is historically accurate and is the product of extensive research so what's the problem ?
Is it the fear of an offense or the fear being killed for daring to publish your scholarly works on one of Mohammed's wife's in a formally free society.

No other religion on the face of the earth has generated such a fear of offense or is it a fear of violant reprisals .

It seems to me that Islam has an innate fear of a close examination of it's tenants and history .Why,Is that I wonder ?Do they have something to hide ? Do they,Islam, have a theology that will allow a rigorous and logical examinationby a secular scholar ?

Why were the Islamics so upset with a few quotes from strange section of their holy book called Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie ?No other religion on the face of the earth threatens death to those who either once they profess Islam then decide to leave their former faith or if they question any of the articles of Islamic dogma .

wilbur
08-22-2008, 05:15 PM
Why don't you lead off Mc Duff ? Hire a bilboard ,Dearborn would be a good place with about 30,000 Islamic's you are sure to have a few callers !


If I had the money to spare and an air tight way to do it anonymously I would in a heartbeat.


leave your true name and address.desecrate Isalm,the Koran And Big Moe and wait for some action if youv'e the coins ?

Er no... I wouldnt trust the fervent believers of any religion to take that sort of thing in stride, with my identity known.

The Night Owl
08-22-2008, 06:08 PM
No other religion on the face of the earth has generated such a fear of offense or is it a fear of violant reprisals .


The Roman Catholic Church was very fucking scary for at least a few centuries, buddy.

Cold Warrior
08-22-2008, 06:10 PM
The Roman Catholic Church was very fucking scary for at least a few centuries, buddy.


http://healthcare.zdnet.com/images/spanish_inq.jpg

megimoo
08-22-2008, 07:14 PM
The Roman Catholic Church was very fucking scary for at least a few centuries, buddy.

I'm not your 'buddy', FruitCake !Your Catholic Church screed has been long overdone.When any group secular,religious,political has full control of society it is bad news for someone.

You seem to delight taking the Jewish issue as an all out condemnation of the Roman Church !Most of your kinfolk seem to bring the inquisition to the forefront as proof of persecution of the Jews but in actuality it was a campaign against hidden apostate Muslims in Spain.

Again as proof I offer Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli, Pope John XXIII .In 1944: Angelo Roncalli, the future Pope John XXIII, appeals to Admiral Miklós Horthy on behalf of 5000 Hungarian Jews with Palestinian visas. Roncalli provides baptismal certificates for Jews in hiding.

On August 6, 1942, a New York Times headline proclaimed: “Pope is Said to Plead for Jews Listed for Removal from France.” This same month, Archbishop Jules Gérard Saliège, from Toulouse, sent a pastoral letter to be read in all churches in his diocese. It said: “There is a Christian morality that confers rights and imposes duties.... The Jews are our brothers. They belong to mankind. No Christian can dare forget that!” L’Osservatore Romano praised Saliège as a hero of Christian courage.

Late in June, 1943, the Vatican Radio warned the French people that “he who makes a distinction between Jews and other men is unfaithful to God and is in conflict with God’s commands.” The impact of any statement, however, was limited. A censorship order to the press said, “No mention is to be made of the Vatican protest to Marshal Pétain in favor of the Jews.”

As it did in other nations, the Church in France helped produce thousands of false documents that were used to deceive the Germans, and special efforts were made to protect Jewish children. Working with Jewish groups, French Christian organizations saved an estimated 7,000 Jewish children in France.

At one point, a force of Protestant and Catholic social workers broke into a prison in Lyon and “kidnapped” ninety children who were being held with their parents for deportation. The parents were deported the next day.

The children were sheltered in religious institutions under the protection of Cardinal Pierre Gerlier with the assistance of Father Pierre Chaillet, a member of the cardinal’s staff.

When Cardinal Gerlier refused an order to surrender the children, Vichy leaders had Father Chaillet arrested. He served three months in a “mental hospital” before being released.

On April 16, 1943, the Australian Jewish News ran an article quoting Cardinal Gerlier to the effect that he was simply obeying Pius XII’s instruction to oppose anti-Semitism.

Many Jews were quickly converted for the purpose of avoiding Nazi persecution. Undoubtedly Church leaders would have been glad to welcome converts to Christianity. However, in a great many more cases, false baptismal documents were provided so that Jewish people could avoid persecution, even though they had not actually converted.

This indicates compassion for the human suffering, regardless of religion.

Sometimes Church officials were embarrassed about how quickly they would convert Jews to Catholicism for the purpose of avoiding persecution. One small church in Budapest averaged about four or five conversions a year before the occupation.

In 1944, those numbers shot up dramatically. Six were converted in January, 23 in May, 101 in June, over 700 in September, and over 1,000 in October.

Three thousand Jews became Catholics at this one small church in 1944. The Nazi occupying forces soon recognized that these conversions were being done only to avoid deportation, so they started persecuting the “converts.” Since it no longer assured protection, the flood of conversions dried up.

The Catholic Church was so open to Jewish converts that some have argued that during the war this was the Church’s primary interest.

In a Papal Allocution of October 6, 1946, Pope Pius addressed the charge that the Church had engaged in “forced conversions.” He found the best evidence to be a memorandum, dated January 25, 1942, from the Vatican Secretariat of State to the Legation of Yugoslavia to the Holy See. The Pope read from that document:

“According to the principles of Catholic doctrine, conversion must be the result, not of external constraint, but of an interior adherence of the soul to the truths taught by the Catholic Church.

“It is for this reason that the Catholic Church does not admit to her communion adults who request either to be received or to be readmitted, except on condition that they be fully aware of the meaning and consequences of the step that they wish to take .

A slant on this claim relates to children, particularly those under the age of six. The surest way to protect such young children from the Nazis was by actually baptizing and indoctrinating them, in case they were ever challenged.

This practice could create resentment among some surviving Jews, especially when Christian clergy encouraged the children to adopt this outward behavior. This probably varied from location to location, but the evidence suggests that most clergy did not undertake these conversions lightly.

In fact, classes were established to let the children study their own religion. (In parts of France and Belgium, Church officials forbade the actual baptism of Jewish children. Outward appearances were thought sufficient to deceive the Nazis. Even when parents requested the baptism, it was recognized that this was simply a matter of duress.)

During the winter of 1943-44, the Jewish Agency in Jerusalem, under the patronage of the High Commander for Palestine, sponsored a memorial evening to recognize and honor the Pontiff’s efforts on behalf of Jewish children. Dignitaries from throughout the city, including the apostolic delegation, were in attendance.

The Secretary General of the World Jewish Congress reported on a meeting with Pius XII after the war to thank him for helping hide Jewish children. Pius promised to cooperate with returning the children to their communities.

Chief Rabbi Herzog of Palestine also announced that he had the Vatican’s promise of help in bringing “converted” Jewish children back into the Jewish fold. In 1964, Dr. Leon Kubovitzky, who directed this project, reported that there were almost no cases of Catholic institutions resisting the return of Jewish children.
snip

..............................IPSO FACTO !