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Bleda
11-15-2010, 11:56 PM
Should it be legal? What are the arguments for and against legalizing it? I have no opinion on it, so I'm curious, but for the sake of argument, I'll be for legalizing it in this thread.

Rockntractor
11-16-2010, 12:18 AM
How much will they cost?:confused:

djones520
11-16-2010, 12:25 AM
I think Nevada has worked out a good legal system.

Adam Wood
11-16-2010, 12:38 AM
Should it be legal? What are the arguments for and against legalizing it? I have no opinion on it, so I'm curious, but for the sake of argument, I'll be for legalizing it in this thread.State and local matter. I don't particularly care that Nevada has legalized prostitution.

Personally, I view it much as a public health matter: let's face it, there's a lot of disease involved there. But more than anything else, most prostitution is hardly the "victimless crime" that it's made out to be. Anyone who has done some charity work with prostitutes (as I have) will readily see that the prostitutes themselves are most certainly victims of all sorts of things. From the battery from pimps and johns to the sub-current of drug culture (particularly meth), the damage done to prostitutes during their "career" is immense.

AmPat
11-16-2010, 12:41 AM
Only if I get to make a few rules;
1. The price is free.
2. They are all virgins
3. They retire after one trick.

djones520
11-16-2010, 12:45 AM
State and local matter. I don't particularly care that Nevada has legalized prostitution.

Personally, I view it much as a public health matter: let's face it, there's a lot of disease involved there. But more than anything else, most prostitution is hardly the "victimless crime" that it's made out to be. Anyone who has done some charity work with prostitutes (as I have) will readily see that the prostitutes themselves are most certainly victims of all sorts of things. From the battery from pimps and johns to the sub-current of drug culture (particularly meth), the damage done to prostitutes during their "career" is immense.

Thats why Nevada has such a good system. It pretty much anything but this.

Penn and Teller did a great Bullshit! episode about this. I'd advise anyone discussing this topic to watch that.

AmPat
11-16-2010, 12:47 AM
So nobody objects to my rules?

Bleda
11-16-2010, 12:49 AM
Yes, I mean legalizing it on the state/local level, not the federal level.


Anyone who has done some charity work with prostitutes (as I have) will readily see that the prostitutes themselves are most certainly victims of all sorts of things. From the battery from pimps and johns to the sub-current of drug culture (particularly meth), the damage done to prostitutes during their "career" is immense.

But those aren't problems with prostitution per se. Physical abuse of anybody is already illegal.

Prostitution might be psychologically damaging, but how is that the government's business? There are many things that are psychologically damaging but legal, so why should prostitution be any different?

lacarnut
11-16-2010, 01:16 AM
Yes, I mean legalizing it on the state/local level, not the federal level.



But those aren't problems with prostitution per se. Physical abuse of anybody is already illegal.

Prostitution might be psychologically damaging, but how is that the government's business? There are many things that are psychologically damaging but legal, so why should prostitution be any different?

Just google the closing of many of the cat houses in Amsterdam and you will get your answer. Does crime, disease and drugs ring a bell?

Adam Wood
11-16-2010, 01:35 AM
Yes, I mean legalizing it on the state/local level, not the federal level.



But those aren't problems with prostitution per se. Physical abuse of anybody is already illegal.

Prostitution might be psychologically damaging, but how is that the government's business? There are many things that are psychologically damaging but legal, so why should prostitution be any different?Well, this is where I go back to local standards. States and particularly localities get to decide their own standards and culture, at least the way that the Founders set it up. There are still dry counties in Tennessee, for example. If the locals don't want booze sold in their counties, then that's their decision (and there are referenda on liquor sales just about every election around here). Local people get to decide how they want to live in their communities, and if you don't like it, then either convince your neighbors differently or else pack your shit and leave for some place you like better.

So, the same goes with prostitution in my mind. And I apply the same to, say, pot (or indeed any other drug) and also things like gay marriage. This is something that tends to bend minds: if the Constitution were actually applied appropriately, gay marriage would not be an issue because marriage has pretty much no mention in the Constitution whatsoever. Therefore, no complaints about, say, tax filings or Social Security benefits, because marriage wouldn't have any standing in federal law at all. But I digress....

As I was saying before I so rudely interrupted myself, leave it up to the localities (which it basically is right now), and the people who live there make the decision. As it stands right now, it seems that most of the country isn't really interested in having prostitution in their local communities. So be it.

I do think that there's a pretty valid argument from the public health standpoint, and barring anything else, is one very good reason that I will always oppose legalized prostitution in my community. The sheer volume of disease spread is unconscionable. Just as I said at the time (and still say now), it would have been better to quarantine those with HIV back in '80 when it first came onto the scene, I believe in doing all that is reasonable to stop the spread of disease amongst the prostitution trade. That's a sheer pragmatic view of public health concerns.

Bleda
11-16-2010, 01:47 AM
Just google the closing of many of the cat houses in Amsterdam and you will get your answer. Does crime, disease and drugs ring a bell?


I do think that there's a pretty valid argument from the public health standpoint, and barring anything else, is one very good reason that I will always oppose legalized prostitution in my community. The sheer volume of disease spread is unconscionable. Just as I said at the time (and still say now), it would have been better to quarantine those with HIV back in '80 when it first came onto the scene, I believe in doing all that is reasonable to stop the spread of disease amongst the prostitution trade. That's a sheer pragmatic view of public health concerns.

Again, those problems are distinct from prostitution. Not all prostitution comes with crime, disease and drugs. You can legalize prostitution and keep crime and drugs illegal. If you're worried about disease, maybe you could mandate tests for disease for clients and prostitutes.


Well, this is where I go back to local standards. States and particularly localities get to decide their own standards and culture, at least the way that the Founders set it up. There are still dry counties in Tennessee, for example. If the locals don't want booze sold in their counties, then that's their decision (and there are referenda on liquor sales just about every election around here). Local people get to decide how they want to live in their communities, and if you don't like it, then either convince your neighbors differently or else pack your shit and leave for some place you like better.

So, the same goes with prostitution in my mind. And I apply the same to, say, pot (or indeed any other drug) and also things like gay marriage. This is something that tends to bend minds: if the Constitution were actually applied appropriately, gay marriage would not be an issue because marriage has pretty much no mention in the Constitution whatsoever. Therefore, no complaints about, say, tax filings or Social Security benefits, because marriage wouldn't have any standing in federal law at all. But I digress....

As I was saying before I so rudely interrupted myself, leave it up to the localities (which it basically is right now), and the people who live there make the decision. As it stands right now, it seems that most of the country isn't really interested in having prostitution in their local communities. So be it.

You're missing the point, though. I'm not asking you on which level prostitution should be legalized (i.e. federal, state, local); I'm asking you whether it should or shouldn't be legalized.

Adam Wood
11-16-2010, 01:58 AM
You're missing the point, though. I'm not asking you on which level prostitution should be legalized (i.e. federal, state, local); I'm asking you whether it should or shouldn't be legalized.Right, but what I'm saying is that for me, personally, in my community, I don't want it. I think that the damage outweighs the benefits. But I don't begrudge anyone in the next county or state who decides that they want to make it legal.

There's not so much a should or shouldn't in my mind, so much as what I personally want to live with around me.

noonwitch
11-16-2010, 08:47 AM
I like the idea of limiting it to certain areas of town, having a red light district like in some European cities. Having lived in a city where it's everywhere, well, it would be best to have specific parts of town so that children are not exposed to it.


STDs make legalized prostitution a nightmare for health departments, though. And, even if legal, there are still going to be women who are prostitutes to support drug habits. Women don't become prostitutes for the most part because they've had happy and safe childhoods.

Gingersnap
11-16-2010, 10:40 AM
I like the idea of limiting it to certain areas of town, having a red light district like in some European cities. Having lived in a city where it's everywhere, well, it would be best to have specific parts of town so that children are not exposed to it.


STDs make legalized prostitution a nightmare for health departments, though. And, even if legal, there are still going to be women who are prostitutes to support drug habits. Women don't become prostitutes for the most part because they've had happy and safe childhoods.

There are basically 3 problems with prostitution that impact communities: disease, associated crime, and exploitation of minors and addicts.

Legalizing it would have to be a local matter. If a community did that, then restricting the business to out-call only would at least break-up the impact of the associated crime. The exploitation angle could be handled with drug testing and I.D. verification if we had any way to verify I.D.s easily which we don't. Disease is always going to be a problem since there is considerable lag-time between infection and antibody production. Also, to protect public health, every "transaction" would have to be traceable for notification purposes and the usual sexual partners of the infected would themselves have to be tested. Quite the little dinner discussion that would create.

Would I want to live in a community with a vibrant out-call business? No, I wouldn't. Women who get paid to self-exploit sexually have a way of encouraging some men to see all women in that same light.

lacarnut
11-16-2010, 11:11 AM
Again, those problems are distinct from prostitution. Not all prostitution comes with crime, disease and drugs. You can legalize prostitution and keep crime and drugs illegal. If you're worried about disease, maybe you could mandate tests for disease for clients and prostitutes.


Bullshit. How do you know that all prostitution does not come with crime, disease or drugs. Prove it.

Adam Wood
11-16-2010, 11:38 AM
Bullshit. How do you know that all prostitution does not come with crime, disease or drugs. Prove it.He's right about that. Not all prostitution involves the abuse, drugs, and disease associated with your typical street-walker. There are high-end call services that generally avoid that stuff (see: David Vitter, Eliot Spitzer, and the movie Risky Business :D).

Bleda
11-16-2010, 01:05 PM
Bullshit. How do you know that all prostitution does not come with crime, disease or drugs. Prove it.

It was hypothetical. Logically speaking, prostitution doesn't necessarily come with crime, disease or drugs. Are you saying a person can't be paid to have sex with another person without being a drug-using, disease-ridden criminal? What do you mean by 'crime', anyway?

But it seems our friend Adam has provided some examples.

BadCat
11-16-2010, 03:33 PM
In Nevada, a LEGAL roll in the hay will set you back around $1000-$1500.

You can get a Vegas call girl for $300 or a street whore for $25-$50.

The economics don't add up.

lacarnut
11-16-2010, 04:11 PM
He's right about that. Not all prostitution involves the abuse, drugs, and disease associated with your typical street-walker. There are high-end call services that generally avoid that stuff (see: David Vitter, Eliot Spitzer, and the movie Risky Business :D).

You must know the life styles of every hooker in the world to make a statement like that. High end call girls never get diseases or end up on drugs. B.S. Vitter and Spitzer were lucky in my opinion. Like I said if it is such an admiral profession, why has Amsterdam closed down half of it's cat and dope houses??????????????????????

BTW, if it is legalized, more scum will get into the racket.

AmPat
11-16-2010, 04:22 PM
In Nevada, a LEGAL roll in the hay will set you back around $1000-$1500.

You can get a Vegas call girl for $300 or a street whore for $25-$50.

The economics don't add up.

In Colorado, you can get a wife for about $300,000. That works out to @ $1900/ month or around $63.00 each day. Now I don't want to carry this calculus any further because I'd have to assess the worth of the marriage.

I think I'm depressed.:o

Adam Wood
11-16-2010, 04:24 PM
You must know the life styles of every hooker in the world to make a statement like that. High end call girls never get diseases or end up on drugs. B.S. Vitter and Spitzer were lucky in my opinion. Like I said if it is such an admiral profession, why has Amsterdam closed down half of it's cat and dope houses??????????????????????

BTW, if it is legalized, more scum will get into the racket.I never made such a claim.

Kay
11-16-2010, 04:25 PM
Only if I get to make a few rules;
1. The price is free.
2. They are all virgins
3. They retire after one trick.


So nobody objects to my rules?

I object. Tsk...tsk. I abhor this taking advantage of sweet young virgins like that. I get to be Madame, and having their best interests at heart I can assure you there will be no such thing as free. The rest I'm ok with.

lacarnut
11-16-2010, 04:35 PM
Right, but what I'm saying is that for me, personally, in my community, I don't want it. I think that the damage outweighs the benefits. But I don't begrudge anyone in the next county or state who decides that they want to make it legal.

There's not so much a should or shouldn't in my mind, so much as what I personally want to live with around me.

If it is legalized, what are you going to do if/when a cat house opens up a block down the road. This business of not in my backyard does not work in that case does it? Actions have consequences.

lacarnut
11-16-2010, 04:37 PM
I never made such a claim.

You inferred it by bringing up Spitz and Vitter's names.

Bleda
11-16-2010, 04:42 PM
You must know the life styles of every hooker in the world to make a statement like that. High end call girls never get diseases or end up on drugs. B.S. Vitter and Spitzer were lucky in my opinion. Like I said if it is such an admiral profession, why has Amsterdam closed down half of it's cat and dope houses??????????????????????

BTW, if it is legalized, more scum will get into the racket.

Again, mandatory testing will fix the disease issue. As for drugs, this is another topic, but what business is it of yours whether someone uses drugs or not? Or, for that matter, what business is it of yours whether someone wants to catch a disease or not?

By the way, why do you think drugs and disease always come with prostitution? That doesn't sound very logical.

AmPat
11-16-2010, 05:02 PM
Again, mandatory testing will fix the disease issue. As for drugs, this is another topic, but what business is it of yours whether someone uses drugs or not? Or, for that matter, what business is it of yours whether someone wants to catch a disease or not?

By the way, why do you think drugs and disease always come with prostitution? That doesn't sound very logical.

The problem isn't with a single occurance. The problem is that the negatives surrounding prostitution are pervasive and well documented. You may wear your blinders all day but the drugs, diseases, and crime will certainly follow the prostitution.

Your arguments to the contrary have been used before. You sound like the liberals who believe that their beloved ideology only fails EVERY time and place it is tried because the proponents were doing it wrong.

lacarnut
11-16-2010, 05:15 PM
Again, mandatory testing will fix the disease issue. As for drugs, this is another topic, but what business is it of yours whether someone uses drugs or not? Or, for that matter, what business is it of yours whether someone wants to catch a disease or not?

By the way, why do you think drugs and disease always come with prostitution? That doesn't sound very logical.

They test for drugs in the Porn industry. Many of them have herpes, HIV and are 6 feet under either from Aids, drugs or suicide. That shoots your mandatory testing theory to hell in a hand-basket. Germany has mandatory testing. At least when I was over there it did. Ask any soldier if they know of anyone in their unit that has gotten a social disease from a prostitute. The answer is yes, yes, yes.

I am against legalization of prostitution and drugs. BTW, what business is of yours to tell me otherwise. Looks like the voters in CA have more sense than you.

Adam Wood
11-16-2010, 05:43 PM
If it is legalized, what are you going to do if/when a cat house opens up a block down the road. This business of not in my backyard does not work in that case does it? Actions have consequences.If it is legalized where I live, then I have the choice of either trying to reverse that to make it illegal again or else I can pack my shit and go somewhere else more to my liking.

Bleda
11-16-2010, 05:44 PM
For the record, I don't actually support (or oppose) any of this. Every once in a while I argue against some of my (or conservatives') beliefs to see if they still hold up. In this case, I'm taking the libertarian/liberal(?) position on prostitution. I'm trying to find out which side has the strongest, most logical position on prostitution.

http://conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=33792

:)


The problem isn't with a single occurance. The problem is that the negatives surrounding prostitution are pervasive and well documented. You may wear your blinders all day but the drugs, diseases, and crime will certainly follow the prostitution.

Your arguments to the contrary have been used before. You sound like the liberals who believe that their beloved ideology only fails EVERY time and place it is tried because the proponents were doing it wrong.


They test for drugs in the Porn industry. Many of them have herpes, HIV and are 6 feet under either from Aids, drugs or suicide. That shoots your mandatory testing theory to hell in a hand-basket. Germany has mandatory testing. At least when I was over there it did. Ask any soldier if they know of anyone in their unit that has gotten a social disease from a prostitute. The answer is yes, yes, yes.

I am against legalization of prostitution and drugs. BTW, what business is of yours to tell me otherwise. Looks like the voters in CA have more sense than you.

Still, though, that's not a problem with prostitution per se. This is akin to one of the arguments against the death penalty; some people are wrongfully executed, therefore the death penalty is bad. Their problem isn't with the death penalty per se; it's with the justice system. In the case of prostitution here, your problem seems to be with those who don't do disease tests well -- or those who are criminal, or those who do drugs -- not prostitution.

Adam Wood
11-16-2010, 05:47 PM
You inferred it by bringing up Spitz and Vitter's names.Horseshit. Reading is fundamental:

He's right about that. Not all prostitution involves the abuse, drugs, and disease associated with your typical street-walker. There are high-end call services that generally avoid that stuff (see: David Vitter, Eliot Spitzer, and the movie Risky Business :D).
You're playing an all-or-nothing game here, and it does not work. The onus is upon you to prove that every single prostitute in any form automatically is involved in violence and drugs. And the simple fact is that you cannot, because you do not have knowledge of every single prostitute who has ever worked.

Are most prostitutes involved in that stuff? Yep. Absolutely. Does that mean every single one is automatically involved in that? Nope. Not by a long shot.

lacarnut
11-16-2010, 05:52 PM
If it is legalized where I live, then I have the choice of either trying to reverse that to make it illegal again or else I can pack my shit and go somewhere else more to my liking.

But if your state, county, city had (3) props to vote on the legalization of prostitution, how would you vote? It seems pretty chicken shit to vote no in your county but yes for it 2 counties away.

lacarnut
11-16-2010, 06:03 PM
Horseshit. Reading is fundamental:

You're playing an all-or-nothing game here, and it does not work. The onus is upon you to prove that every single prostitute in any form automatically is involved in violence and drugs. And the simple fact is that you cannot, because you do not have knowledge of every single prostitute who has ever worked.

Are most prostitutes involved in that stuff? Yep. Absolutely. Does that mean every single one is automatically involved in that? Nope. Not by a long shot.

I gave you proof that prostitution in Amsterdam was a seedy and criminal operation but you failed to respond. The burden of proof is on you to prove that it is not. Prostitution will not be legalized in most states. If you do not like it, that's what I call tough titty.

Big Guy
11-16-2010, 06:05 PM
From another thread;

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/bizarre/malodorous-perp-gets-90-days-jail

Need I say more?

Bleda
11-16-2010, 06:10 PM
I gave you proof that prostitution in Amsterdam was a seedy and criminal operation but you failed to respond. The burden of proof is on you to prove that it is not. Prostitution will not be legalized in most states. If you do not like it, that's what I call tough titty.

According to you (I'd like evidence of this, but okay) only half the “cat and dope houses” or whatever were closed down. What about the other half?

Hawkgirl
11-16-2010, 06:23 PM
Should it be legal? What are the arguments for and against legalizing it? I have no opinion on it, so I'm curious, but for the sake of argument, I'll be for legalizing it in this thread.


I think you should get a real job.

lacarnut
11-16-2010, 06:24 PM
According to you (I'd like evidence of this, but okay) only half the “cat and dope houses” or whatever were closed down. What about the other half?

Google is your friend. More closures are on the way. Read on. So, it looks like prostitution may not totally go away but the trashy places and dope houses are being closed down.

The chances of prostitution being legalized in states other than NV are slim. So, a discussion of it is rather pointless. Same with drugs. If one of the most liberal state in the US can not pass a law legalizing weed, it is not going to happen.

Rockntractor
11-16-2010, 06:33 PM
If one of the most liberal state in the US can not pass a law legalizing weed, it is not going to happen. No matter where you are on this issue Lacar has a good point!

Bleda
11-16-2010, 06:34 PM
I think you should get a real job.

“It's true hard work never killed anyone, but I figure, why take the chance?” - Ronald Reagan

:p


Google is your friend. More closures are on the way. Read on. So, it looks like prostitution may not totally go away but the trashy places and dope houses are being closed down.

But my point is that maybe not all prostitution comes with crime, disease and drugs. Until you can prove that in countries/areas with legalized prostitution, prostitution always comes with crime, disease and drugs... well, as you say, tough. There will obviously be cases where prostitution and crime, disease and drugs go hand in hand, but it's a far cry from “Every single case of prostitution comes with crime, disease and drugs.”


The chances of prostitution being legalized in states other than NV are slim. So, a discussion of it is rather pointless. Same with drugs. If one of the most liberal state in the US can not pass a law legalizing weed, it is not going to happen.

That's probably true. But we're not discussing whether it's going to be legalized; rather, whether it should be legalized. :cool:

Adam Wood
11-16-2010, 07:05 PM
I gave you proof that prostitution in Amsterdam was a seedy and criminal operation but you failed to respond.That's because it's irrelevant. I double-checked, and this still isn't Amsterdam.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that it is not.
What nonsense. You made a sweeping accusation with no evidence whatsoever. When you can prove that every single prostitute who ever lived is involved in drugs and violence and carries disease, then you can back up your claim. The accuser is the one who bears the burden of proof, not the other way around.

Prostitution will not be legalized in most states. If you do not like it, that's what I call tough titty.
Perhaps you should review my stance on legalization of prostitution before your foot gets beyond your esophagus.

lacarnut
11-16-2010, 07:45 PM
That's because it's irrelevant. I double-checked, and this still isn't Amsterdam.

What nonsense. You made a sweeping accusation with no evidence whatsoever. When you can prove that every single prostitute who ever lived is involved in drugs and violence and carries disease, then you can back up your claim. The accuser is the one who bears the burden of proof, not the other way around.

Perhaps you should review my stance on legalization of prostitution before your foot gets beyond your esophagus.

How about Germany where American troops are stationed? You ever been in the service. Like I said, ask a soldier that has been to Germany whether testing of prostitutes is effective. For example, a prostitute that is diseased is not going to get tested. She will keep turning tricks and passing on what she has to different guys. What has your experience been?

Like Bad Cat stated, the economics do not add up. If you have a $1000 to spend on an escort, chances are you will not catch anything. Get a hooker in a bar or street walker and your chances are not good.

I got your stance straight out of the horse mouth. Prostitution is okay as long as it is not in my backyard. If I have my foot in my mouth, you have your head up your ass.

Hawkgirl
11-16-2010, 07:55 PM
Let's not forget that Prostitution does wonders for a woman's self-esteem. Do I need to prove that too?

Adam Wood
11-16-2010, 09:05 PM
How about Germany where American troops are stationed? Unless they moved it lately, it's still on the far side of the Atlantic, still another nation, and not part of the United States, and thus not relevant here.

You ever been in the service.
No, I was denied that opportunity.

Like I said, ask a soldier that has been to Germany whether testing of prostitutes is effective. For example, a prostitute that is diseased is not going to get tested. She will keep turning tricks and passing on what she has to different guys. What has your experience been?
My experience has been that I never said a damn thing about testing.

Like Bad Cat stated, the economics do not add up. If you have a $1000 to spend on an escort, chances are you will not catch anything. Get a hooker in a bar or street walker and your chances are not good.Wait...

So there's the possibility that there are some prostitutes who aren't diseased? Well, gosh, that sure as hell sounds like what I said from the start.

I got your stance straight out of the horse mouth. Prostitution is okay as long as it is not in my backyard. If I have my foot in my mouth, you have your head up your ass.
Nope. Read it again. That is not my stance at all.

Bleda
11-16-2010, 10:11 PM
Let's not forget that Prostitution does wonders for a woman's self-esteem. Do I need to prove that too?

Probably not. But should the government ban things simply because they damage someone's self-esteem? Why would it matter? Should the government ban one night stands? Or harsh criticism? Perhaps even obesity? One could argue these things “do wonders” for a person's self-esteem, too. So, should they be banned? :)

Hawkgirl
11-16-2010, 10:20 PM
Probably not. But should the government ban things simply because they damage someone's self-esteem? Why would it matter? Should the government ban one night stands? Or harsh criticism? Perhaps even obesity? One could argue these things “do wonders” for a person's self-esteem, too. So, should they be banned? :)

Prostitution objectifies women...simply, it's buying and selling of women, it is degradation. Is it something you'd want your daughter to do?

Girl: Mom, I want to be a prostitute when I grow up
Mom: NO
Girl: Why not? it's legal.

A prostitute is someone's daughter...why do you want this country, or any country to legalize it?
As a country, we should be more evolved and discourage objectification of women.

You have heard of stances against Prostitution...why do you think it SHOULD be legal, what benefit to society do you think Prostitution would bring?

Bleda
11-16-2010, 10:55 PM
Prostitution objectifies women...simply, it's buying and selling of women, it is degradation. Is it something you'd want your daughter to do?

Girl: Mom, I want to be a prostitute when I grow up
Mom: NO
Girl: Why not? it's legal.

A prostitute is someone's daughter...why do you want this country, or any country to legalize it?
As a country, we should be more evolved and discourage objectification of women.

So? It may be immoral, but that's no reason to ban something. I don't have to morally accept something in order to want it legal. I also wouldn't raise my kids to think that legal = moral.

For me, discouraging immoral things is society's role, not the government's. Don't like prostitution? Start a movement to discourage and stigmatize it or something. Same with smoking. Or drinking alcohol. The government has a very specific role, and telling people what is or isn't moral and banning things it deems immoral isn't a part of that role. I'm not even speaking of issues like abortion (which I vehemently oppose) or gay marriage. I'm speaking of things that are simply “live and let live.”


You have heard of stances against Prostitution...why do you think it SHOULD be legal, what benefit to society do you think Prostitution would bring?

Pretty much no benefits to “society.” I'm looking at it from a rights angle. There are a lot of things that don't bring any benefits to society (or even damage society) but are still legal, and funnily enough, most people have no problem with them from a legal perspective. Do you think pornography should be illegal (not just to minors, but to everyone)?

Hawkgirl
11-17-2010, 12:09 AM
. Don't like prostitution? Start a movement to discourage and stigmatize it or something. ?

I don't have to...it already is discouraged and it has a bad stigma attached to it. Society doesn't want it. If society wanted it, it would be legalized. Most laws are passed because it benefits society. What benefit would prostitution bring? None, it's immoral, it's unhealthy, it would be detrimental to society in many ways.

Our government/legislature pass laws that either benefit or protect members of our society. Prostitution does neither.
Prostitution should remain on the down
l
o
w

It sends the wrong message to our children and nothing good can come of it.

It's a simple answer, really.

Bleda
11-17-2010, 12:21 AM
I don't have to...it already is discouraged and it has a bad stigma attached to it. Society doesn't want it. If society wanted it, it would be legalized. Most laws are passed because it benefits society. What benefit would prostitution bring? None, it's immoral, it's unhealthy, it would be detrimental to society in many ways.

Our government/legislature pass laws that either benefit or protect members of our society. Prostitution does neither.
Prostitution should remain on the down
l
o
w

It sends the wrong message to our children and nothing good can come of it.

It's a simple answer, really.

It's a simplistic answer, yes. :rolleyes: So far I've seen no argument against legalizing prostitution other than “I don't like it.” I'm quite surprised, actually; I thought there'd be good arguments for and against prostitution. I don't understand how “society doesn't like it” is enough to ban consenting adults from doing something with each other in private.

Damn you, CU, you're turning me into a libertarian. :(

Rockntractor
11-17-2010, 12:26 AM
It's a simplistic answer, yes. :rolleyes: So far I've seen no argument against legalizing prostitution other than “I don't like it.” I'm quite surprised, actually; I thought there'd be good arguments for and against prostitution. I don't understand how “society doesn't like it” is enough to ban consenting adults from doing something with each other in private.

Damn you, CU, you're turning me into a libertarian. :(

I can give you an address for a Libertarian forum I visit occasionally and you may change your mind about that.
I am a Libertarian but after seeing how most of them practice this philosophy I may not be for much longer.

wilbur
11-17-2010, 12:27 AM
Prostitution legalization is often lumped in with narcotic legalization, but I don't think the parallels are all that many.

Legalization of prostitution might result in a safe(r) environment for a few customers and a few workers - but only some of them. I don't foresee most of the ills of the illegal trade being reduced in a significant way, quite unlike the case for drug legalization.

I don't see a way to regulate the trade so that its reasonably safe, while reducing the demand for a black market.

But either way, I'm all for different localities experimenting with policy.

RobJohnson
11-17-2010, 12:29 AM
I think Nevada has worked out a good legal system.

True.

RobJohnson
11-17-2010, 12:30 AM
How much will they cost?:confused:

Free under Obamacare!

Rockntractor
11-17-2010, 12:35 AM
The answer is sex robots!

RobJohnson
11-17-2010, 12:35 AM
In Nevada, a LEGAL roll in the hay will set you back around $1000-$1500.

You can get a Vegas call girl for $300 or a street whore for $25-$50.

The economics don't add up.

Unless it's a slow night....... :D

RobJohnson
11-17-2010, 12:42 AM
Let's not forget that Prostitution does wonders for a woman's self-esteem. Do I need to prove that too?

Most prostitutes that I know have families and other jobs...some are school teachers that just fly to Nevada for the Summer and Winter breaks...they get locked in and can't leave during the 2 week duty...most of them are very nice girls....and they made a CHOICE to be a legal whore...no one made them do it.....

RobJohnson
11-17-2010, 12:43 AM
The answer is sex robots!

I date those already...:p

Bleda
11-17-2010, 12:54 AM
I can give you an address for a Libertarian forum I visit occasionally and you may change your mind about that.
I am a Libertarian but after seeing how most of them practice this philosophy I may not be for much longer.

I'm a libertarian-conservative. Used to be very socially conservative (opposed gay marriage, etc.), even though I'm an irreligious agnostic, but over time, after constantly reevaluating my positions on many social issues, I've found the 'conservative' (for lack of a better word) arguments unconvincing. This doesn't mean I now support things like gay marriage; I've simply become indifferent to them.

I find myself leaning toward libertarianism, but these days 'generic' libertarianism doesn't appeal to me much either. Their position on abortion, for instance, is a big no-no for me; I'm very pro-life. Their views on foreign policy are much worse and simply unacceptable.

I suppose I could be a libertarian without agreeing with everything the 'mainstream' libertarians believe in, but I think I'll continue to identify as 'libertarian-conservative' instead. That is, a conservative leaning toward libertarianism. Still a conservative, though. :cool:

Rockntractor
11-17-2010, 01:25 AM
I'm a libertarian-conservative. Used to be very socially conservative (opposed gay marriage, etc.), even though I'm an irreligious agnostic, but over time, after constantly reevaluating my positions on many social issues, I've found the 'conservative' (for lack of a better word) arguments unconvincing. This doesn't mean I now support things like gay marriage; I've simply become indifferent to them.

I find myself leaning toward libertarianism, but these days 'generic' libertarianism doesn't appeal to me much either. Their position on abortion, for instance, is a big no-no for me; I'm very pro-life. Their views on foreign policy are much worse and simply unacceptable.

I suppose I could be a libertarian without agreeing with everything the 'mainstream' libertarians believe in, but I think I'll continue to identify as 'libertarian-conservative' instead. That is, a conservative leaning toward libertarianism. Still a conservative, though. :cool:
What I have found out about most of the Libertarians, especially on Libertarian forums is that they don't vote or participate in the political system. They bitch about it all and seem to know the constitution and logic quite well, but they have become so pessimistic that they don't do anything about it.

CueSi
11-17-2010, 01:49 AM
I'm a libertarian-conservative. Used to be very socially conservative (opposed gay marriage, etc.), even though I'm an irreligious agnostic, but over time, after constantly reevaluating my positions on many social issues, I've found the 'conservative' (for lack of a better word) arguments unconvincing. This doesn't mean I now support things like gay marriage; I've simply become indifferent to them.

I find myself leaning toward libertarianism, but these days 'generic' libertarianism doesn't appeal to me much either. Their position on abortion, for instance, is a big no-no for me; I'm very pro-life. Their views on foreign policy are much worse and simply unacceptable.

I suppose I could be a libertarian without agreeing with everything the 'mainstream' libertarians believe in, but I think I'll continue to identify as 'libertarian-conservative' instead. That is, a conservative leaning toward libertarianism. Still a conservative, though. :cool:

I'm with Bleda on this one... And not just because Gerard Butler is their avatar. ;)

Didn't hurt tho.

~QC

Milly
11-17-2010, 07:48 AM
If a woman owns her body to the extent that she can evict a tenant via abortion, shouldn't she also be allowed to rent it out? :rolleyes:

wilbur
11-17-2010, 09:07 AM
If a woman owns her body to the extent that she can evict a tenant via abortion, shouldn't she also be allowed to rent it out? :rolleyes:

Interesting dichotomy, because generally speaking... yes! Maybe we should make prostitution legalization a matter of federal law, and just let the states hammer out the details....

But there are enough potential negative consequences with prostitution for all parties involved - including society at large - that make it questionable whether legalization is appropriate, federally. Even if, in principle, it seems like a woman (or man) should have a right to sell their bodies, the negative consequences of allowing that relatively minor freedom might severely outweigh its benefits. That's the same sort of utilitarian calculation involved in just about every regulation on rights in the country.. prostitution is no different.

Abortion, at least the vast, vast majority of them, do no demonstrable harm and actually help people, in many circumstances. Many disagree with that because their theological beliefs tell them otherwise... but we can't be using those as justifications or basis for law - just like in the case of prostitution.

Gingersnap
11-17-2010, 10:22 AM
I suppose I could be a libertarian without agreeing with everything the 'mainstream' libertarians believe in, but I think I'll continue to identify as 'libertarian-conservative' instead. That is, a conservative leaning toward libertarianism. Still a conservative, though. :cool:

Well, I'm a Libertarian and I don't buy every single splinter in every plank the the party nails down. In fact, it's kind of non-Libertarian to howl at the moon just because all your friends do. ;)

Morally, I find prostitution to be repugnant on a number of levels. I also find legal sleeping around to be morally objectionable but I'm not crafting laws against it even though the social fallout from that is astonishing.

As I said in my earlier post, there are some technical issues that would need to be overcome here. Those issues are not necessarily insurmountable. If local communities want to try it, we could learn a lot about what really works and what really doesn't. That said, I would not vote for it my community for the reason I stated elsewhere.

lacarnut
11-17-2010, 10:23 AM
What I have found out about most of the Libertarians, especially on Libertarian forums is that they don't vote or participate in the political system. They bitch about it all and seem to know the constitution and logic quite well, but they have become so pessimistic that they don't do anything about it.

Quite true. I thought it was a lead pipe cinch that weed would be legalized in CA. Consequently, legalization of prostitution does not stand a prayer of passing.

Milly
11-17-2010, 10:26 AM
Abortion, at least the vast, vast majority of them, do no demonstrable harm and actually help people, in many circumstances. Many disagree with that because their theological beliefs tell them otherwise... but we can't be using those as justifications or basis for law - just like in the case of prostitution.

I think a fetus might disagree that abortion does no demonstrable harm. :(

obx
11-17-2010, 10:31 AM
I agree with Milly. Abortion kills 50% of the ones involved 100% of the times.

wilbur
11-17-2010, 10:44 AM
I think a fetus might disagree that abortion does no demonstrable harm. :(

Again, theological beliefs might lead you to that conclusion - but there's a reason you see so few non-religious people who are pro-choice... there's few, if any, compelling secular justifications for the belief that abortion harms.

In the case of prostitution, Ginger hit the nails on the heads with those several potential pitfalls she mentioned. They were entirely secular in nature. There are some real things to be concerned about regarding prostitution, that have absolutely nothing to do with one's theological view on the topic.

Abortion, not-so-much... at least when it comes to the question of legalization or prohibition.

RobJohnson
11-17-2010, 10:52 AM
I think a fetus might disagree that abortion does no demonstrable harm. :(

Thanks to my bio parents that choose adoption over abortion, I am here today to type this. :)

RobJohnson
11-17-2010, 10:54 AM
Legal or not....there are plenty of women that use sex to get what they want....and it's not always money. Same deal with men.....

Not everyone that has sex is in love with that person, I know, shocker!!!:eek:

Gingersnap
11-17-2010, 11:02 AM
Legal or not....there are plenty of women that use sex to get what they want....and it's not always money. Same deal with men.....

Not everyone that has sex is in love with that person, I know, shocker!!!:eek:

All too true. ;)


Now, let's try to keep this thread on track. :)

lacarnut
11-17-2010, 11:11 AM
All too true. ;)


Now, let's try to keep this thread on track. :)

The prostitution train has ran off the track into a ditch; legalization is not going to happen.

RobJohnson
11-17-2010, 11:17 AM
Now, let's try to keep this thread on track. :)


Did you forget that wilbur showed up? :p

Gingersnap
11-17-2010, 12:14 PM
Work with me here. :p

AmPat
11-17-2010, 12:28 PM
Again, theological beliefs might lead you to that conclusion - but there's a reason you see so few non-religious people who are pro-choice... there's few, if any, compelling secular justifications for the belief that abortion harms.

In the case of prostitution, Ginger hit the nails on the heads with those several potential pitfalls she mentioned. They were entirely secular in nature. There are some real things to be concerned about regarding prostitution, that have absolutely nothing to do with one's theological view on the topic.

Abortion, not-so-much... at least when it comes to the question of legalization or prohibition.

Have you backed up you OPINION with empirical evidence and research of those who had abortions? (I mean those who chose to kill their babies, the baby had no say).

I suspect that your opinion would be up against some strong negative results showing harm to those who took the abortion route.

Adam Wood
11-17-2010, 02:45 PM
Interesting dichotomy, because generally speaking... yes! Maybe we should make prostitution legalization a matter of federal law, and just let the states hammer out the details....Prostitution IS legal under federal law. There is no federal statute making prostitution a crime.


Abortion, at least the vast, vast majority of them, do no demonstrable harm and actually help people, in many circumstances. Many disagree with that because their theological beliefs tell them otherwise... but we can't be using those as justifications or basis for law - just like in the case of prostitution.
Just exactly who gets "helped" by murdering an inconvenient baby? And yes, it's a BABY, so don't bother trying to use some "clump of cells" equivocation. YOU are a clump of cells. Is it OK if I kill you?

There is absolutely, positively no such thing as "abortion to save the life of the mother." It does not exist. So that well is dry. Try something else. Impress me with a good reason to murder a baby.

And no, it's not theological beliefs that lead me to my opposition of abortion. It's both human rights beliefs and a belief in the Constitution that lead me to my opposition of abortion.

wilbur
11-17-2010, 02:55 PM
Prostitution IS legal under federal law. There is no federal statute making prostitution a crime.


Oh, well I stand corrected there. Cool.

As for the other stuff, put it in another thread, so as not to piss of Ginger, and then I can see about responding.

Gingersnap
11-17-2010, 03:01 PM
As for the other stuff, put it in another thread, so as not to piss of Ginger, and then I can see about responding.

:)

RobJohnson
11-18-2010, 09:01 AM
Work with me here. :p

:D