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djones520
11-23-2010, 02:33 AM
(Reuters) - North Korea on Tuesday fired dozens of artillery shells at a South Korean island, setting buildings on fire and prompting a return fire by the South, Seoul's military and media reports said.

Seoul's YTN television quoted a witness as saying 60 to 70 houses were on fire after the shelling.

The military confirmed the exchange of firing, without providing more details.



http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AM0TZ20101123

Actually found this over on DU.

But this is not a good thing. Not good at all. The North keeps shit like this up, Gator and Molon are going to find out why we still have bases there.

Zathras
11-23-2010, 03:03 AM
Knowing Gator he'll find some convoluted way to blame those "filthy Israelis" for what's happening in Korea.

greatday
11-23-2010, 03:14 AM
North Korea fired dozens of artilley shells at the South Korea island of Yeonpyeong, off the west coast of the Korean peninsula.
Dozens of houses are on fire after the shelling and the South Korea military is now trying to determine the degree of damage.
Yeonpyeong is burning up in flames right now.

The North has continuously carried out provocative actions against South Korea, but an outright artilley shelling is unprecedented Basically, a wartime provocation has now occurred in Yeonpyeong.

South Korean military has returned fire abiding by the engagement rules, and is now analyzing the North's motives.
Why the North carried out such an action is irrelevant now.
The important issue is that North Korea intentionally carried out an organized attack.

This might be a warning against the South Korean military's "Hoguk" training, which started yesterday.
However, firing artilley shells against the Sough during midday is clearly an act of war.
North Korea must take responsibility for this action and the global community, along with South Korea, should seek effective retaliation measures.

djones520
11-23-2010, 03:21 AM
A retaliation NEEDS to happen this time. This is two blatant attacks that N. Korea has pulled off against the South in the last year. Next time it may just be a nuke.

SarasotaRepub
11-23-2010, 06:52 AM
Gee...couldn't we "accidently" drop a couple of MOABS on Pyongyang??? I mean, would anyone even notice???

ironhorsedriver
11-23-2010, 07:55 AM
Wonder how the big "O" will support an ally this time?

Wei Wu Wei
11-23-2010, 08:00 AM
Gee...couldn't we "accidently" drop a couple of MOABS on Pyongyang??? I mean, would anyone even notice???

lmao yes let's just kill a couple million civilians lmao good times hahaha :p;):D

Madisonian
11-23-2010, 08:06 AM
Wonder how the big "O" will support an ally this time?

Depends on which one Obamawan Goblowme considers his ally, North or South.:confused:

Bailey
11-23-2010, 08:23 AM
lmao yes let's just kill a couple million civilians lmao good times hahaha :p;):D

Dont worry WeWe the Magic Negro (piss be on him) will blame either the US or SK or both and all will go back to normal. :rolleyes:

Wei Wu Wei
11-23-2010, 08:30 AM
I don't understand this bloodlust. Everyone is so eager to go to war. You can't forget that if war were to break out, not just the small skirmishes that happen every now and then, that Seoul would destroyed in hours. It is just a stone's throw (or artilery blast) from the border.

the DPRK has a very powerful military and could possibly get the support of china, even if they didn't and they were able to be defeated relatively quickly with large scale intervention from the US (costing us dearly), South Korea would still be screwed for decades.

Nothing good could come from large scale war breaking out, I can't understand the people who seem so giddy at the prospect of us being able to drop some bombs on some people

Rockntractor
11-23-2010, 08:33 AM
I don't understand this bloodlust. Everyone is so eager to go to war. You can't forget that if war were to break out, not just the small skirmishes that happen every now and then, that Seoul would destroyed in hours. It is just a stone's throw (or artilery blast) from the border.

the DPRK has a very powerful military and could possibly get the support of china, even if they didn't and they were able to be defeated relatively quickly with large scale intervention from the US (costing us dearly), South Korea would still be screwed for decades.

Nothing good could come from large scale war breaking out, I can't understand the people who seem so giddy at the prospect of us being able to drop some bombs on some people

No condemnation against N. Korea from you whatsoever, they shelled their neighbor without provocation yet to you they are the innocent party. You fool!

Zathras
11-23-2010, 10:10 AM
I don't understand anything since I'm a DUmbass, liberal waste of skin.

Fixed for brevity.

djones520
11-23-2010, 10:14 AM
I don't understand this bloodlust. Everyone is so eager to go to war. You can't forget that if war were to break out, not just the small skirmishes that happen every now and then, that Seoul would destroyed in hours. It is just a stone's throw (or artilery blast) from the border.

the DPRK has a very powerful military and could possibly get the support of china, even if they didn't and they were able to be defeated relatively quickly with large scale intervention from the US (costing us dearly), South Korea would still be screwed for decades.

Nothing good could come from large scale war breaking out, I can't understand the people who seem so giddy at the prospect of us being able to drop some bombs on some people

Wei, I spent 4 and a half years training to fight that war with them. I sat in on every classified briefing that discussed their military capabilities. I am well aware of the level of destruction they are capable of raining down.

But to not answer these actions with force will only invite more attacks. Two blatant acts of war in less then a year. Nearly 50 dead military, and 2 dead civilians. Both attacks where unprovoked.

We saw what happened when we treated the terrorists with kid gloves after the Khobar Towers, Embassies, and USS Cole. You have the balls to tell S. Korea that they should just sit there and take it as well?

Bailey
11-23-2010, 10:28 AM
Wei, I spent 4 and a half years training to fight that war with them. I sat in on every classified briefing that discussed their military capabilities. I am well aware of the level of destruction they are capable of raining down.

But to not answer these actions with force will only invite more attacks. Two blatant acts of war in less then a year. Nearly 50 dead military, and 2 dead civilians. Both attacks where unprovoked.

We saw what happened when we treated the terrorists with kid gloves after the Khobar Towers, Embassies, and USS Cole. You have the balls to tell S. Korea that they should just sit there and take it as well?

This is a snapshot of what will happen if Iran gets the bomb.

noonwitch
11-23-2010, 12:53 PM
A retaliation NEEDS to happen this time. This is two blatant attacks that N. Korea has pulled off against the South in the last year. Next time it may just be a nuke.


I think the best retaliation would be an attack on their nuclear facility or facilities. A guy on FOX suggested taking out their navy in port, saying that if they have to rebuild their navy, it'll take some of their focus off their nuclear intentions for a while.

I guess that the main reason not to use full-out military retaliation is fear of how China is going to react.

Plan B would be getting the CIA to find/manufacture evidence that Lil Kim has defamed the Prophet Mohammed and let the subsequent events play themselves out.

Bailey
11-23-2010, 01:05 PM
I think the best retaliation would be an attack on their nuclear facility or facilities. A guy on FOX suggested taking out their navy in port, saying that if they have to rebuild their navy, it'll take some of their focus off their nuclear intentions for a while.

I guess that the main reason not to use full-out military retaliation is fear of how China is going to react.

Plan B would be getting the CIA to find/manufacture evidence that Lil Kim has defamed the Prophet Mohammed and let the subsequent events play themselves out.

What navy? they have none of worth.


SK is just proving what a paper tiger they are, this is a full blown act of war, would the President stand around and do nothing if this was happening to us? I know silly statement he would do nothing I know.

Teddy Kennedy
11-23-2010, 04:39 PM
This is a snapshot of what will happen if Iran gets the bomb.

You mean when Iran gets the bomb.

Constitutionally Speaking
11-23-2010, 05:08 PM
I don't understand this bloodlust. Everyone is so eager to go to war. You can't forget that if war were to break out, not just the small skirmishes that happen every now and then, that Seoul would destroyed in hours. It is just a stone's throw (or artilery blast) from the border.

the DPRK has a very powerful military and could possibly get the support of china, even if they didn't and they were able to be defeated relatively quickly with large scale intervention from the US (costing us dearly), South Korea would still be screwed for decades.

Nothing good could come from large scale war breaking out, I can't understand the people who seem so giddy at the prospect of us being able to drop some bombs on some people


Wei,

It is not a matter of blood-lust. It is knowing that if we do not do something NOW - or at least very soon, those artillery shells might be tipped with nuclear weapons OR they MAY be attached to an ICBM that is aimed at us.

Wei Wu Wei
11-23-2010, 06:05 PM
There's always some extreme possibility but the reality is that NK has never used nuclear weapons against anyone and they haven't been starting any wars for half a century, which is more than you can say about us.

Haven't we learned any lessons about pre-emptive wars based on what amounts to nothing more than the heebie jeebies. Hundreds of thousands of people died in Iraq, most of them civilians caught up in the chaos.

The last time the koreans were in large scale war a huge chunk of the entire island's population (i think around 1/5th but i can't find the source right now) died. These are real people with lives and families and children.

What would we gain from the surely hundreds of thousands of deaths, if not far more?

It's inconceivable really, the implications from a war with NK would be horrible for everyone. Even if China didn't support them militarily, beating NK would be no cake walk and the cost of American lives would be far worse than Iraq and Afghanistan.

BadCat
11-23-2010, 06:17 PM
There's always some extreme possibility but the reality is that NK has never used nuclear weapons against anyone and they haven't been starting any wars for half a century, which is more than you can say about us.

Haven't we learned any lessons about pre-emptive wars based on what amounts to nothing more than the heebie jeebies. Hundreds of thousands of people died in Iraq, most of them civilians caught up in the chaos.

The last time the koreans were in large scale war a huge chunk of the entire island's population (i think around 1/5th but i can't find the source right now) died. These are real people with lives and families and children.

What would we gain from the surely hundreds of thousands of deaths, if not far more?

It's inconceivable really, the implications from a war with NK would be horrible for everyone. Even if China didn't support them militarily, beating NK would be no cake walk and the cost of American lives would be far worse than Iraq and Afghanistan.

Fuck you, you America hating piss ant.

You better start looking for a new board to post at, because your time here is going to be very short.

ironhorsedriver
11-23-2010, 06:24 PM
There's always some extreme possibility but the reality is that NK has never used nuclear weapons against anyone and they haven't been starting any wars for half a century, which is more than you can say about us.

Haven't we learned any lessons about pre-emptive wars based on what amounts to nothing more than the heebie jeebies. Hundreds of thousands of people died in Iraq, most of them civilians caught up in the chaos.

The last time the koreans were in large scale war a huge chunk of the entire island's population (i think around 1/5th but i can't find the source right now) died. These are real people with lives and families and children.

What would we gain from the surely hundreds of thousands of deaths, if not far more?

It's inconceivable really, the implications from a war with NK would be horrible for everyone. Even if China didn't support them militarily, beating NK would be no cake walk and the cost of American lives would be far worse than Iraq and Afghanistan.

Korea, neither one, is an Island.

Constitutionally Speaking
11-23-2010, 07:14 PM
There's always some extreme possibility but the reality is that NK has never used nuclear weapons against anyone and they haven't been starting any wars for half a century, which is more than you can say about us.

Haven't we learned any lessons about pre-emptive wars based on what amounts to nothing more than the heebie jeebies. Hundreds of thousands of people died in Iraq, most of them civilians caught up in the chaos.

The last time the koreans were in large scale war a huge chunk of the entire island's population (i think around 1/5th but i can't find the source right now) died. These are real people with lives and families and children.

What would we gain from the surely hundreds of thousands of deaths, if not far more?

It's inconceivable really, the implications from a war with NK would be horrible for everyone. Even if China didn't support them militarily, beating NK would be no cake walk and the cost of American lives would be far worse than Iraq and Afghanistan.


There is absolutely no doubt that it would be a horrible experience for all, but the alternative is quite likely to be FAR worse.

We would gain, once victorious, the elimination of an enemy that actively seeks to destabilize the entire planet, that is rapidly gaining a substantial nuclear capability (no question whatsoever on this) and has demonstrated beyond any doubt that it has no problem attacking innocent countries without provocation. We would gain the elimination of a country that is rapidly acquiring the capability to launch a nuclear weapon capable of hitting our coast.

SarasotaRepub
11-23-2010, 07:59 PM
lmao yes let's just kill a couple million civilians lmao good times hahaha :p;):D

***Sigh*** Honestly Wei.

You do realize that the MOAB is a conventional, if huge, air/fuel explosive don't you??
And considering the population of their capital, with all those cool empty buildings, the death toll would probably be like 35. :D

djones520
11-23-2010, 08:03 PM
Wei, the N. Koreans are counting on people like you.

They want people like you to be so afraid of "what if" that eventually, they'll figure out how to put their nuclear weapons onto a Taepo-Dong 2 missile, and they'll have the capability of nuking Anchorage, Seattle, San Fransisco.

And then what? What are we to do then? What is Japan to do when Tokyo is in striking range? Taiwan? Manila?

This is a regime that just fired 200 artillery rounds at a S. Korean village for no reason at all. You think they won't hold us hostage with nuclear weapons? If you do, then you are an idiot.

Kay
11-23-2010, 08:20 PM
Every little DICKtator out there is just pushing it because they think:

1. Our military is tired and stretched thin from 10 years of war
2. We have an extremely weak POTUS that despises his own country
3. Americans are a divided people with too much social & economic unrest at the moment to care

They are right on point 2.
They grossly under-estimate on points 1 and 3.

AmPat
11-23-2010, 10:23 PM
lmao yes let's just kill a couple million civilians lmao good times hahaha :p;):D
You just get DUmber by the day.

Kay
11-23-2010, 10:46 PM
It was just announce that Barry has talked with the S. Korean President,
and has agreed to hold joint military exercises in the area.
I have a cousin floating around over there off the coast on a sub.

Silverhair
11-23-2010, 11:34 PM
Plan B would be getting the CIA to find/manufacture evidence that Lil Kim has defamed the Prophet Mohammed and let the subsequent events play themselves out.

The is purely creative evil. I love it. Its an idea worthy of Master Rove.

SarasotaRepub
11-24-2010, 06:39 AM
The is purely creative evil. I love it. Its an idea worthy of Master Rove.


Yep, well done noonwitch! :D

Madisonian
11-24-2010, 07:36 AM
There is absolutely no doubt that it would be a horrible experience for all, but the alternative is quite likely to be FAR worse.

We would gain, once victorious, the elimination of an enemy that actively seeks to destabilize the entire planet, that is rapidly gaining a substantial nuclear capability (no question whatsoever on this) and has demonstrated beyond any doubt that it has no problem attacking innocent countries without provocation. We would gain the elimination of a country that is rapidly acquiring the capability to launch a nuclear weapon capable of hitting our coast.

The problem here is with the phrase "once victorious".
Since the end of WWII the US government has not allowed the military to do what it needs to do to win.
Korea, Vietnam, Iraq 1 and 2, Afghanistan have all been fought not to win, but not to lose.

You want to win a war, look at pictures of Dresden, Toyko, Hamburg. You don't try to win their hearts and minds, you use every means necessary to reduce them to submission.

Iraq 1 was the closest we have come lately. Bomb the piss out of them for a while then go in and clean up. The problem is we did not finish the job when we had the chance.

As far as North Korea goes, if it is judged in our interest to retaliate, then go in and reduce Pyongyang to nothing larger than a quarter. This idea of sending a carrier to join in exercises is a joke and Kim Jung is probably sitting back laughing knowing nothing of substance will happen. More US sabre rattling without substance.
Shove a couple hundred JDAM's up his ass and he may get the point without having to send a single US or ROK soldier over the border.

"War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the sooner it will be over."
and
"If the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war, and not popularity seeking”
-William Tecumseh Sherman

NJCardFan
11-24-2010, 08:36 AM
Iraq 1 was the closest we have come lately. Bomb the piss out of them for a while then go in and clean up. The problem is we did not finish the job when we had the chance.
And we didn't really need to do much. The Kurds went on the offensive shortly after we left and could have taken Saddam out. All they needed was a little air support but Bush 41 wouldn't authorize it then Saddam used his non-existent WMD's to kick the Kurds in the balls. After that, no one in Iraq had the nads to finish the job. Had Bush provided air support, things might have turned out differently.

As for the Korea incident, this is getting dicey. People like WeeWee are the type who are willing to bury their head in the sand and hope the bogeyman goes away but whack jobs like the Gargoyle aren't going to go away. And mark my words, this is the start of something bigger. Il will attack the South if given the chance. Right now he's poking his toes in the water and he finding out that the water is fine. If there is no response to this, look for something much, much bigger and if, again, there is no response, then it's going to be WHAM, Seoul is gone. As for China, I don't think they'd get as involved as you might think. They're in a very precarious position right now. We're a big part of their economy and they can ill afford to piss us off and quite frankly, I don't think they give as much a shit about NK as some might think.

gator
11-24-2010, 10:26 AM
A retaliation NEEDS to happen this time. This is two blatant attacks that N. Korea has pulled off against the South in the last year. Next time it may just be a nuke.

Could you please tell me why North Korea is a threat to the US? What business of ours what goes on in Korea? The Cold War has been over for 20 years now and South Korea is a rich country with one of the best militaries in the world. We allied with South Korea to prevent the post WWII expansion of Communism. That mission was over after the fall of the Soviet Union and the industrialization of China. It has been over for 20 years now.

We have the 4/7 Cav stationed in Korea guarding the Korean border. Why arenít they at Ft Bliss guarding the US Mexico border?

Our country is spending a tremendous amount more money than we take in. In fact we are on the verge of bankruptcy. Our taxes are at the highest ever. Why is it that we are borrowing money from the Chinese to fund subsidizing the South Korean military and guaranteeing their security?

I have great respect and admiration for the South Koreans. However, I have no idea why we feel nowadays the need to guarantee their security. It is simply not our business anymore. According to CIA stats the average South Korean spends about $1K a year on defense while the average American spends $2K. Why is it that I have to work and pay taxes and the money goes to pay the South Koreans?

When my son was stationed in Korea in 2008 he mentioned the South Korean villagers throwing stuff at the troops as they were on the way to field exercises. These people were not Left Wing college students but average South Koreans that resented having Americans stationed in their country. The SK government loves American troops but that love doesnít extend to many South Koreans.

I know it is fun to speculate on kicking a little NK ass. Keep in mind that a war will cause the death of many American soldiers. They would not be dying to protect America but be dying to protect Koreans. Over the last 100 years far too many Americans have died protecting some foreigner. If we are going to bury our soldiers let it be because they gave their lives for America and not for a foreigner.

As far as nukes goes there are over two dozen counties possessing nuclear weapons and not all of them are friendly to the US. Is it your stupid idea to attack every country that has nuclear weapons?

The biggest problem now is exactly what happened in 1950. It is not defeating the North Koreans. It is the reality that the Chinese cannot accept a united Korea dominated by the US. The Chinese were willing to sacrifice the lives of hundreds of thousands of their troops to prevent that from happening once before. The last thing the US needs to happen now is to get into a land war with the Chinese with tremendous casualties. That is a far more likelihood than the North Koreans nuking an American city.

You donít think things out very well, do you?

Jfor
11-24-2010, 10:33 AM
Could you please tell me why North Korea is a threat to the US? What business of ours what goes on in Korea? The Cold War has been over for 20 years now and South Korea is a rich country with one of the best militaries in the world. We allied with South Korea to prevent the post WWII expansion of Communism. That mission was over after the fall of the Soviet Union and the industrialization of China. It has been over for 20 years now.

We have the 4/7 Cav stationed in Korea guarding the Korean border. Why arenít they at Ft Bliss guarding the US Mexico border?

Our country is spending a tremendous amount more money than we take in. In fact we are on the verge of bankruptcy. Our taxes are at the highest ever. Why is it that we are borrowing money from the Chinese to fund subsidizing the South Korean military and guaranteeing their security?

I have great respect and admiration for the South Koreans. However, I have no idea why we feel nowadays the need to guarantee their security. It is simply not our business anymore. According to CIA stats the average South Korean spends about $1K a year on defense while the average American spends $2K. Why is it that I have to work and pay taxes and the money goes to pay the South Koreans?

When my son was stationed in Korea in 2008 he mentioned the South Korean villagers throwing stuff at the troops as they were on the way to field exercises. These people were not Left Wing college students but average South Koreans that resented having Americans stationed in their country. The SK government loves American troops but that love doesnít extend to many South Koreans.

I know it is fun to speculate on kicking a little NK ass. Keep in mind that a war will cause the death of many American soldiers. They would not be dying to protect America but be dying to protect Koreans. Over the last 100 years far too many Americans have died protecting some foreigner. If we are going to bury our soldiers let it be because they gave their lives for America and not for a foreigner.

As far as nukes goes there are over two dozen counties possessing nuclear weapons and not all of them are friendly to the US. Is it your stupid idea to attack every country that has nuclear weapons?

The biggest problem now is exactly what happened in 1950. It is not defeating the North Koreans. It is the reality that the Chinese cannot accept a united Korea dominated by the US. The Chinese were willing to sacrifice the lives of hundreds of thousands of their troops to prevent that from happening once before. The last thing the US needs to happen now is to get into a land war with the Chinese with tremendous casualties. That is a far more likelihood than the North Koreans nuking an American city.

You donít think things out very well, do you?

You do realize we are still at war with North Korea right?

djones520
11-24-2010, 10:34 AM
Easily done gator, and I don't need to spend an hour typing.

Taepo-Dong Missile with a nuclear warhead.

Sure, it's still a few years away, but would you rather we deal with them now, or let them hold us hostage with that then?

I bet I know your answer. :rolleyes:

noonwitch
11-24-2010, 11:47 AM
There's always some extreme possibility but the reality is that NK has never used nuclear weapons against anyone and they haven't been starting any wars for half a century, which is more than you can say about us.

Haven't we learned any lessons about pre-emptive wars based on what amounts to nothing more than the heebie jeebies. Hundreds of thousands of people died in Iraq, most of them civilians caught up in the chaos.

The last time the koreans were in large scale war a huge chunk of the entire island's population (i think around 1/5th but i can't find the source right now) died. These are real people with lives and families and children.

What would we gain from the surely hundreds of thousands of deaths, if not far more?

It's inconceivable really, the implications from a war with NK would be horrible for everyone. Even if China didn't support them militarily, beating NK would be no cake walk and the cost of American lives would be far worse than Iraq and Afghanistan.


It's not a preemptive strike in this case, as the North Koreans attacked South Korea and made the preemptive strike. A strike back is called retaliation. It probably wouldn't even lead to a full scale war. A strike on a military target might not even take that many lives, in comparison to what a nuclear-armed North Korean missle could do to Seoul or Tokoyo.

I don't think the type of full scale war you are talking about is what will be the result if the US and West help South Korea handle this situation in a military manner. For one thing, South Korea is far more advanced socially and technologically than they were in the 1950s. When my dad was there in the late 50s, he and his army division were stringing phone lines and building roads. They are far beyond that stage at this point, but being so rural and unadvanced at the time contributed to the number deaths in the war. It's not Hawkeye and Trapper John treating the locals in a tent city anymore.

gator
11-24-2010, 11:59 AM
You do realize we are still at war with North Korea right?

Nope. Sorry but you have it wrong. The US is not "still at war with North Korea".

The US was part of a UN action to prevent the take over of South Korea by the Soviet backed forces. That mission was completed once the border was stabilized and the South Korean military was trained and supplied. Probably back in the early 1980s. Certainly when the Soviets gave it up.

Are you a slave to the UN?

We have no security interest in Korea anymore. We did our bit back in 1950-1953. Since we are going bankrupt we need to get out of the interventionist business when our security is not at stake.

As far a China goes then they are employing the Reagan Doctrine. Reagan and Ollie North would not allow a unified Commie Central America under the influence of the Soviet Union on the American border. Right or wrong China feels the same way about the US and the unification of Korea.

Molon Labe
11-24-2010, 12:04 PM
Are you a slave to the UN?

Sadly...many of the conversations I've been a part of where the other party is arguing the justification for this....the UN is used as a major arugment. :(

Jfor
11-24-2010, 12:14 PM
Nope. Sorry but you have it wrong. The US is not "still at war with North Korea".

The US was part of a UN action to prevent the take over of South Korea by the Soviet backed forces. That mission was completed once the border was stabilized and the South Korean military was trained and supplied. Probably back in the early 1980s. Certainly when the Soviets gave it up.

Are you a slave to the UN?

We have no security interest in Korea anymore. We did our bit back in 1950-1953. Since we are going bankrupt we need to get out of the interventionist business when our security is not at stake.

As far a China goes then they are employing the Reagan Doctrine. Reagan and Ollie North would not allow a unified Commie Central America under the influence of the Soviet Union on the American border. Right or wrong China feels the same way about the US and the unification of Korea.

So tell me, oh great anti-Semitic one, when was the peace treaty signed?

Zathras
11-24-2010, 12:44 PM
Ah yes, Isolationism....that worked SO well in the past. Herr Gator is nothing but a REMF yellow belly hiding behind so called moral clarity.

gator
11-24-2010, 01:12 PM
So tell me, oh great anti-Semitic one, when was the peace treaty signed?

Oh great Dumbass One tell me when Congress declared war on North Korea.

gator
11-24-2010, 01:22 PM
Easily done gator, and I don't need to spend an hour typing.

Taepo-Dong Missile with a nuclear warhead.

Sure, it's still a few years away, but would you rather we deal with them now, or let them hold us hostage with that then?

I bet I know your answer. :rolleyes:

You didn't answer my question. Do you want to destroy every country that has nuclear weapons?

What are your convictions? You want to take on Russia first? How about China?

Are we going to invade any country that may get nuclear weapons and may be a threat to the US one day? Who is going to pay for the military to do that? Should we continue to borrow money from the Chinese to afford the military? Since anybody and their little brown dog can build a nuclear weapon nowadays then that list is liable to be pretty long.

Don't you think we would be safer just minding our own business for a change?

The real threat is taking action against North Korea and getting pulled into a war with China and they have a shitload of nukes. You do know that the last time we took on North Korea the Chinese got involved, don't you?

You really need to think these things out a little better rather than just spout NeoCon BS over the Internet.

Molon Labe
11-24-2010, 01:26 PM
Ah yes, Isolationism....that worked SO well in the past. Herr Gator is nothing but a REMF yellow belly hiding behind so called moral clarity.

And there again is the vacuous meme that if you think that it's ridiculous to be handling the security of every single podunk nation on the earth that you must be an isolationist.

Again... there is a wide gulf between isolationsim and common sense foreign policy. You prefer the current policy of being every where at once policing the world on our own dime and American soldiers blood. While some of us think that someone else should be doing the defending and dieing for their own damn government. That's called Non intervention not isolationism.

gator
11-24-2010, 02:44 PM
What we really need to do is simply let the South Koreans handle the problem.

It is too late now for this incident but we should have withdrawn all American troops 15-20 years ago. Some of those troops need to be stationed on the Mexican border to protect the interest of the US. They would be much more useful to the people of the US protecting our borders (after all we pay their salary) than protecting the Korean border.

If SK gets into a war with NK I suspect with their first rate military they can handle it themselves. If they want to buy some of our weapon systems to help them fight the NKs then we should consider selling it to them, if it is in our interest to do so. Being as broke as we are nowadays it would be good to sell something for a change. They should have the foresight to stock up on weapons ahead of time because when the SHTF it will too late and it is not our problem to supply them in combat conditions.

If NK becomes a pawn of an international movement like it was in 1950 then maybe that would change the calculus but I donít think that is the case nowadays.

Neocons have a very difficult time trying to understand the real security interest of the US. They think money is free and donít mind our men and women dying for foreign interest. In fact they love the idea. Real Conservatives understand that foreign entanglements get us into a lot of trouble and we usually regret it. We should learn to listen to the advice of our Founding Fathers to stay out of foreign entanglements rather than the demands of foreign government to give them money and fight their wars for them.

asdf2231
11-24-2010, 02:44 PM
There's always some extreme possibility but the reality is that NK has never used nuclear weapons against anyone and they haven't been starting any wars for half a century, which is more than you can say about us.

Haven't we learned any lessons about pre-emptive wars based on what amounts to nothing more than the heebie jeebies. Hundreds of thousands of people died in Iraq, most of them civilians caught up in the chaos.

The last time the koreans were in large scale war a huge chunk of the entire island's population (i think around 1/5th but i can't find the source right now) died. These are real people with lives and families and children.

What would we gain from the surely hundreds of thousands of deaths, if not far more?

It's inconceivable really, the implications from a war with NK would be horrible for everyone. Even if China didn't support them militarily, beating NK would be no cake walk and the cost of American lives would be far worse than Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's a PENINSULA not an island you dumb ass.

And if we REALLY were serious about destroying North Korea we would just send over the Democrat party leadership to help them run their country.

Bailey
11-24-2010, 02:51 PM
What we really need to do is simply let the South Koreans handle the problem.

It is too late now for this incident but we should have withdrawn all American troops 15-20 years ago. Some of those troops need to be stationed on the Mexican border to protect the interest of the US. They would be much more useful to the people of the US protecting our borders (after all we pay their salary) than protecting the Korean border.

If SK gets into a war with NK I suspect with their first rate military they can handle it themselves. If they want to buy some of our weapon systems to help them fight the NKs then we should consider selling it to them, if it is in our interest to do so. Being as broke as we are nowadays it would be good to sell something for a change. They should have the foresight to stock up on weapons ahead of time because when the SHTF it will too late and it is not our problem to supply them in combat conditions.

If NK becomes a pawn of an international movement like it was in 1950 then maybe that would change the calculus but I donít think that is the case nowadays.

Neocons have a very difficult time trying to understand the real security interest of the US. They think money is free and donít mind our men and women dying for foreign interest. In fact they love the idea. Real Conservatives understand that foreign entanglements get us into a lot of trouble and we usually regret it. We should learn to listen to the advice of our Founding Fathers to stay out of foreign entanglements rather than the demands of foreign government to give them money and fight their wars for them.

Hi traitor how have you been?

gator
11-24-2010, 04:14 PM
Hi traitor how have you been?

I can live with being considered a “traitor” to the Korean people 60 years after the Korean War if being a traitor means minding my own business.

If being a traitor is about preventing American servicemen from dying to protect some foreign land that has nothing to do with American security then I can deal with that.

If being a traitor is looking after the interest of America rather than the interest of a foreign country then so be it.

If being a traitor is using the American military to protect American interest like protecting the Mexican border instead of protecting the Korean border then so be it.

The real traitors to America are the Neocons that think it is the duty of America to protect every Tom, David and Muhammad in the world. The real traitors are the filthy Neocon that send brave American servicemen and women off to die in some foreign land just because some foreign government lobbyists pays off our elected officials. You do know that the South Korean lobby is one of the most aggressive don’t you? The real traitors are the people that put foreign interest ahead of American interest.

If there is a shooting war in Korea and because of our intervention the Chinese decides to interfere like they did in 1950 you do realize that tens of thousands of American troops would die, don’t you? What would you tell the families of the fallen? Would you tell them their loved one died to protect Korea? They sure as hell would not be dying to protect America.

If the US withdraws its troops and stay out of it the Chinese would be more inclined to let the Koreans fight it out among themselves. Since the SK military is so much better equipped and trained than the NKs they would win in the end. Don't you think it is better for Asian boys to die fighting Asian wars than Americans?

It would be good if we could be smart every once in awhile instead of a bunch of dumbasses at the beck and call of every foreign government with a lobby in DC.

Madisonian
11-24-2010, 06:38 PM
I don't think China would get involved directly or indirectly with any conflict with the US over Korea because they cannot afford to economically.

They are learning what we are forgetting, there is more power in bonds than in bullets.

If China were to get involved, the first thing that would happen is we would freeze all their assets in the US. We would invalidate the debt owed to them by any entity, public or private, for any reason. For that reason and the fact it would bring all trade with the US to an immediate end, it would bankrupt them. China could retaliate but they have more tied up in assets and market access here than we have there, and certainly more than in NK.

I can't see trying an outright war with the US either. China is not stupid enough to use nukes against us for so many obvious reasons, so lets take that off the table.
What does China have to gain economically or even politically with an occupation war against the US on our soil and at what cost? A land war would take decades to fight and after the war, there would not be much let to conquer. Most infrastructure would be destroyed either in battle or as a scorched earth policy. The US and Chinese economies would be in ruin and take the rest of the civilized world with it for the ride. Not exactly rocket surgery to work that one one.

So in effect, China has magnitudes more to loose by pissing off the US than it has to gain by aiding NK.
Could the US use this to help persuade China to get Him Gone Ill in line or else we will? Most likely.

Big Guy
11-24-2010, 07:09 PM
I guess to some people here the thought of turning your back on a friend is a normal thing. Not me, I have never and will never turn my back on a friend. It is my belief that the act of turning your back on a friend in need is nothing short of cowardice that is unforgivable.

South Korea has been a friend and ally since the 1950's. I suppose, to some people a friendship is only good as long as everything is working out fine for you. Those of you that are wishing to turn our backs on the South Koreans should be ashamed of your self. You should be ashamed for your cowardice and treachery.

Some here claim they are taking the "Moral High Ground" by turning their back on the South Koreans. It in not moral to allow your friends to lose their freedom, be bullied and be enslaved. If you truly wish to take the moral high ground, STAND UP,....STAND UP FOR THE LITTLE GUY.

Remember the words; "Give me liberty or give me death"? Those words have an actual meaning some of us have forgotten.

gator
11-24-2010, 07:09 PM
I don't think China would get involved directly or indirectly with any conflict with the US over Korea because they cannot afford to economically.




That is a nice little theory you have there but I wouldn't want to risk the lives of tens of thousands of men and women on your hunch that China wouldnít do anything. They had a lot to lose in 1950 but they did it anyhow.

Another theory is that China knows that the US is weak now and would be willing to assert its international dominance in a land war in Asia conflict.

It is best we just stay out of this crap. South Korea is rich country with a first rate military. Let them handle their problems. South Korea can beat North Korea without our help. If China steps in and aids North Korea then your theory is flawed and we would have been pulled into a conflict that would have caused tremendous casualties.

I think the best scenario to keep China from interfering is for the US to stay out of it. With us involved it almost dares China to get involved.

We need to be more concerned with getting this bloated Federal government off our backs, balancing our budget and with securing our own borders rather than worry about getting into another land war in Asia.

hampshirebrit
11-24-2010, 07:10 PM
Hi traitor how have you been?

Secure that shit. This is unacceptable.

Gator is a vet.

Whatever your opinion of his views, he served in the US Armed Forces in a time of war. He is not a traitor, and it's disgraceful for you or anyone else to say so.

Debate vets all you want, but do not disrepect them here.

I will not warn you again.

Big Guy
11-24-2010, 07:11 PM
That is a nice little theory you have there but I wouldn't want to risk the lives of tens of thousands of men and women on your hunch that China wouldnít do anything. They had a lot to lose in 1950 but they did it anyhow.

Another theory is that China knows that the US is weak now and would be willing to assert its international dominance in a land war in Asia conflict.

It is best we just stay out of this crap. South Korea is rich country with a first rate military. Let them handle their problems. South Korea can beat North Korea without our help. If China steps in and aids North Korea then your theory is flawed and we would have been pulled into a conflict that would have caused tremendous casualties.

I think the best scenario to keep China from interfering is for the US to stay out of it. With us involved it almost dares China to get involved.

We need to be more concerned with getting this bloated Federal government off our backs, balancing our budget and with securing our own borders rather than worry about getting into another land war in Asia.

See the post above.:mad:

gator
11-24-2010, 07:22 PM
I guess to some people here the thought of turning your back on a friend is a normal thing.

We have been a friend to Korea for 60 years. We saved their asses in 1950 and spent the next 30 years helping to build up their economy. We lost 36,000 men defending them from Communism. We have spent hundreds of billions of dollars over the years.

If Korea is not able to protect themselves nowadays then are they going to be on American military welfare forever, arenít they? When is enough enough? They have one of the best militaries in the world and one of the strongest economies. Donít you think it is time for them to be off American welfare?

We can be a friend to Korea without sending our brave men and women to die for them.

We should fight wars because it is in our security interest to do so. We felt it was in 1950 when the Soviet backed North Koreans were trying to dominate SE Asia. The Soviets are long gone and the Cold War is over. The need to protect Asia from the commies is over.

We have our own problems to worry about. I donít see the South Koreans helping us secure our borders from the Mexicans and I sure donít see them helping us to balance our budget. We need to look after our own interest for a change. Losing tens of thousands of our best men and women to help the South Koreans to do what they should be doing for themselves is not the right thing to do.

Big Guy
11-24-2010, 07:29 PM
We have been a friend to Korea for 60 years. We saved their asses in 1950 and spent the next 30 years helping to build up their economy. We lost 36,000 men defending them from Communism. We have spent hundreds of billions of dollars over the years.

If Korea is not able to protect themselves nowadays then are they going to be on American military welfare forever, arenít they? When is enough enough? They have one of the best militaries in the world and one of the strongest economies. Donít you think it is time for them to be off American welfare?

We can be a friend to Korea without sending our brave men and women to die for them.

We should fight wars because it is in our security interest to do so. We felt it was in 1950 when the Soviet backed North Koreans were trying to dominate SE Asia. The Soviets are long gone and the Cold War is over. The need to protect Asia from the commies is over.

We have our own problems to worry about. I donít see the South Koreans helping us secure our borders from the Mexicans and I sure donít see them helping us to balance our budget. We need to look after our own interest for a change. Losing tens of thousands of our best men and women to help the South Koreans to do what they should be doing for themselves is not the right thing to do.

Spoken like a true __________, you fill in the blank.

gator
11-24-2010, 07:40 PM
Spoken like a true __________, you fill in the blank.

Non-Interventionist is the word you are looking for. It is as tenent of real Conservatism.

Many of our Founding Fathers felt the same way.

Real Conservative Americans understand that we shouldn't be providing welfare for the whole world.

If the South Koreans aren't ready to get off American welfare now then they never will be.

North Korea has a GNP of only about 40 billions dollars a year. South Korea has almost a two trillion dollar economy. If they need American help to defeat the NKs then it is their own fault for not proving enough for their own defense. However, I don't think that is the case. I think they are able to take care of themselves.

We need to stay out of another land war in Asia when we have significant problems here at home. You do know we are about 14 trillion dollars in debt and have an unemployment rate of almost 10% and the Mexicans are over running our borders, don’t you? Don't you think we need to take care of our own problems before we worry about the South Koreans?

Madisonian
11-24-2010, 07:47 PM
That is a nice little theory you have there but I wouldn't want to risk the lives of tens of thousands of men and women on your hunch that China wouldnít do anything. They had a lot to lose in 1950 but they did it anyhow.



China did not have either the internal economy or economic relationships with the US in 1950 as it does today.
In that regard they had nothing to lose then and everything to lose now.

They may be exchanging currencies with the former Soviet Union, but not hugs, kisses and candle light dinners.

Russia's economy as an importer or exporter has not recovered enough to completely replace the US marketplace. Without that marketplace, China is cooked and they know it.

How many electronics and lead filled toys and how much tainted pet food can they sell to Russia? Russia is also a net agricultural importer, so where are they going to get food to feed their people who will be unemployed if they don't sell low labor cost items to us?

Bailey
11-24-2010, 07:56 PM
I guess some animals are more equal then others...

Zathras
11-24-2010, 08:00 PM
Secure that shit. This is unacceptable.

Gator is a vet.

Whatever your opinion of his views, he served in the US Armed Forces in a time of war. He is not a traitor, and it's disgraceful for you or anyone else to say so.

Debate vets all you want, but do not disrepect them here.

I will not warn you again.

And yet, despite doing it time and time again, Herr Gator is still here. Just ask Ody or any other vet here about how Herr Gator has treated them after disagreeing with his so called moral clarity.

If you were truly interested in enforcing that rule, Herr Gator would have been gone a long time ago.

Jfor
11-24-2010, 08:10 PM
And yet, despite doing it time and time again, Herr Gator is still here. Just ask Ody or any other vet here about how Herr Gator has treated them after disagreeing with his so called moral clarity.

If you were truly interested in enforcing that rule, Herr Gator would have been gone a long time ago.

All I got to say to that is werd.

Bailey
11-24-2010, 08:14 PM
Secure that shit. This is unacceptable.

Gator is a vet.

Whatever your opinion of his views, he served in the US Armed Forces in a time of war. He is not a traitor, and it's disgraceful for you or anyone else to say so.

Debate vets all you want, but do not disrepect them here.

I will not warn you again.

How about you go after gator for his treatment of the major? oh thats right gator is a friend. I have read many times gator calling the major a traitor but thats ok if your a friend of a mod its ok then right?


And his advocacy of the south and the break up of the US is behavior requiring said name. Sorry being a vet does'nt buy you a life time get out of jail for free cards.


And what you find unacceptable doesnt mean much to me, i call them as I see them.


on edit: to get respect you have to earn it.

Zathras
11-24-2010, 08:29 PM
Easily done gator, and I don't need to spend an hour typing.

Taepo-Dong Missile with a nuclear warhead.

Sure, it's still a few years away, but would you rather we deal with them now, or let them hold us hostage with that then?

I bet I know your answer. :rolleyes:

Herr Gator is ok with the NorKs getting nuclear tipped ICBMs as long as they use it on those "Filthy Israelis".

Kay
11-24-2010, 08:48 PM
And his advocacy of the south and the break up of the US is behavior requiring said name. Sorry being a vet does'nt buy you a life time get out of jail for free cards.

Not to hijack this thread off on a tangent, but since this is the second time you've mentioned this, I just have to go on record to say that I'll stand beside Gator and be a 19th century traitor in your eyes too then. There's still a lot of us from Confederate states that had relatives fighting in that war, who wish the outcome had been different.

Madisonian
11-24-2010, 08:53 PM
Not to hijack this thread off on a tangent, but since this is the second time you've mentioned this, I just have to go on record to say that I'll stand beside Gator and be a 19th century traitor in your eyes too then. There's still a lot of us from Confederate states that had relatives fighting in that war, who wish the outcome had been different.

There are one or two of us in the North that are not so pleased with Mr. Lincoln and his consolidation of federal power either, but you are right. That is a topic for another time.

Bailey
11-24-2010, 09:07 PM
Not to hijack this thread off on a tangent, but since this is the second time you've mentioned this, I just have to go on record to say that I'll stand beside Gator and be a 19th century traitor in your eyes too then. There's still a lot of us from Confederate states that had relatives fighting in that war, who wish the outcome had been different.


Well your avatar says it all :rolleyes:

Trust me there are states (texas)that I wish weren't in the union but I don't want the break up of my country to get rid of that cess poll of arrogance and bad football teams (cowpukes) guess we have to take the good with the bad.

Bailey
11-24-2010, 09:09 PM
There are one or two of us in the North that are not so pleased with Mr. Lincoln and his consolidation of federal power either, but you are right. That is a topic for another time.

Well gator called a SERVING vet a traitor so many times its beyond count, its shameful. I was just throwing the term back in his face due to his slavish devotion to the civil war.

Rockntractor
11-24-2010, 09:23 PM
The Democrat socialists are the worst enemy we have now, not each other, if we allow them to continue to weaken us in every way like they are, soon the N.Koreans and the Chinese will be a major threat.
We need to stick together as conservatives, the civil war was a long time ago.

Kay
11-24-2010, 09:42 PM
Well your avatar says it all :rolleyes:

Trust me there are states (texas)that I wish weren't in the union but I don't want the break up of my country to get rid of that cess poll of arrogance and bad football teams (cowpukes) guess we have to take the good with the bad.


Why Ed Baily....does this mean you are not my friend anymore?
Cause if you were not my friend, I don't think I could bear it.
What a snot nose little wench you have become all of a sudden.

Sniping at the South.
Sniping at Texas.
Sniping at my Hamps over in that Megan Kelley thread, and here in this one.
Tsk...tsk....


Well gator called a SERVING vet a traitor so many times its beyond count, its shameful. I was just throwing the term back in his face due to his slavish devotion to the civil war.

I haven't been around long enough to know the back story of what this deal with Maj O and Gator is all about, but it seems to have upset you more than it did either one of them. I feel quite sure Maj O can hold his own and take care of himself without any help.

Are you a veteran Bailey?

And yes Rock, the CW was a long time ago.
Calling someone a traitor over it now seems fairly childish.
Especially someone who in a later time and war served under the Stars & Stripes.

gator
11-24-2010, 10:05 PM
The Democrat socialists are the worst enemy we have now, not each other, if we allow them to continue to weaken us in every way like they are, soon the N.Koreans and the Chinese will be a major threat.
We need to stick together as conservatives, the civil war was a long time ago.

NeoCons are not real Conservatives.

When somebody puts the interest of a foreign government over the interest of the US that is hardly Conservatism. We first need to purge ourselves of all the people that donít understand what conservatism is all about.

It really doesnít matter if you want to give away American taxpayer money to the Blacks of inner city Chicago like the Liberals or give away the money to some foreign government like the NeoCons. It is still a welfare mentality, isnít it?

Not everybody really wants to be a Conservative. NeoCons love to give our money away to anybody in the world, even when we are going broke.

We need to start taking care of ourselves and let the foreign interest fight their own wars. We can be strong and we can fight when it is necessary but providing welfare for every country in the world that has a lobbyist in DC and contributes to our elected leaders is hardly smart, is it?

We are actually borrowing money from China now to pay for the troops stationed in South Korea. Think about that.

Bailey
11-24-2010, 10:20 PM
Why Ed Baily....does this mean you are not my friend anymore?
Cause if you were not my friend, I don't think I could bear it.
What a snot nose little wench you have become all of a sudden.

Sniping at the South.
Sniping at Texas.
Sniping at my Hamps over in that Megan Kelley thread, and here in this one.
Tsk...tsk....



I haven't been around long enough to know the back story of what this deal with Maj O and Gator is all about, but it seems to have upset you more than it did either one of them. I feel quite sure Maj O can hold his own and take care of himself without any help.

Are you a veteran Bailey?

And yes Rock, the CW was a long time ago.
Calling someone a traitor over it now seems fairly childish.
Especially someone who in a later time and war served under the Stars & Stripes.

No I am not a vet but I have served my country.

I hate texas, well more to the point I hate dallas but thats for another thread.;)

No I am sure the Major can defend himself just fine just like gator can defend himself without your help, right?

And its not in a the least bit childish calling a member of the armed service a traitor and other anti-Semitic screeds gatorhas thrown at him from time to time. :rolleyes: Sorry I dont let that pass even if I wasnt the target.

the backstory wouldve gotten most banned from a lot of sites but for reasons I dont understand he hasnt.


On edit: If you hear anyone using the words Neo-con as an negitive what they really want to say is "dirty jew"

Rockntractor
11-24-2010, 10:22 PM
We have the thunderdome for fights, back on topic or take it to the dome.

Bailey
11-24-2010, 10:23 PM
We have the thunderdome for fights, back on topic or take it to the dome.

sorry rock wont happen again :(

Any chance to rip dallas I have to take it :)

gator
11-24-2010, 10:46 PM
We are no longer strong enough to provide welfare to Korea. In reality we canít defend Korea anymore if the Chinese donít want us to.

The Chinese can destroy us without having to send troops.

All they have to do is dump their dollars. That would cause the dollar to be worthless. That would do things like drive up the cost of a barrel of oil to astronomical amounts.

Do you really think the Chinese will finance our debt if our troops are threatening a reunification of Korea and did the same thing now as we tried to do in 1950?

If the Chinese donít finance our debt then we go bankrupt. If our government canít sell bonds then it will default on the massive debt.

Also if the Chinese chose to stop imports we would have massive shortages in manufactured goods, including the defense industry.

The Chinese could take the short term lost while the US goes the way of the Soviet Union and then they can emerge as the worldís dominate economic and military force.

It is possible. Before we start beating the war drums over Korea we had better think it over carefully. We could get our asses beat and the Chinese never fire a shot.

Kay
11-24-2010, 11:02 PM
Also if the Chinese chose to stop imports we would have massive shortages in manufactured goods, including the defense industry.

And that could be exactly when we put American's back to work making our own manufactured goods. If we'd quit importing everything, we could reopen our own factories here and get the welfare class off their butts back to actually working for a living to MAKE things. We've become such a society of white-collar workers that don't produce anything but paper. The ability to be self-sustaining is what made us the world's economic powerhouse to start with. We are losing that. We need American's producing and buying American goods.

gator
11-25-2010, 08:00 AM
And that could be exactly when we put American's back to work making our own manufactured goods. If we'd quit importing everything, we could reopen our own factories here and get the welfare class off their butts back to actually working for a living to MAKE things. We've become such a society of white-collar workers that don't produce anything but paper. The ability to be self-sustaining is what made us the world's economic powerhouse to start with. We are losing that. We need American's producing and buying American goods.

Kay it is not that easy.

First of all in my scenario losing the imported goods would be the secondary problem. The primary problem would be the inability to finance public debt and the devaluation of the dollar due to the dumping. Those two things by themselves would possibly cause the bankruptcy of the US. The results would be catastrophic.

However, to answer your point. You enjoy cheap manufactured goods because it is made by cheap labor. To replace it with expensive labor goods made by American workers would cause a very significant increase in price, especially if it was made by a union.

Not only would the cost of goods be high but we no longer have the manufacturing capacity. Not only would have to retool but we would have to finance the expansions. It would be impossible to do it at a time when the banks have failed, the government has gone into bankruptcy and the dollar is worth almost nothing. Try making something when the devalued dollar has resulted in the price of oil to be $500 a barrel, for instance. Add in the cost of govrnment regulation like environmental wacko permitting and good luck with making a profit on anything.

We have the strongest military in the world but we are not strong economics wise to go to war with China. Because of the big spenders in Congress for the last 50 years and the welfare mentality we have with giving away our money to the rest of the world we are very weak nowadays. In a conflict with China they hold all the cards. Remember that we could not beat them in 1950 in a land war in Korea when economics wasn’t even a factor.

My suggestion that we let Korea deal with their own security and stay out of it is very reasonable.

First of all the South Koreans are strong enough to defeat the North Koreans.

Second of all there would be less of a chance for China to intervene without the US being involved.

Third of all there wouldn’t be massive American casualties.

Forth of all we wouldn’t have deal with the potentially catastrophic economic consequences of being at war with China, should they chose to intervene like they did before.

In other words the US would be a lot better off by minding our own business and stay out of conflicts that have nothing to do with our own security. Especially a land war n Asia.

We don’t have to participate in every war in the world, do we? We can sit one out one now and can’t we? The Neocons can just sit in their chairs in the naughty boy’s corner and cry that there is a war going on and we are not fighting it but the rest of us can appreciate the benefits of being smart for a change. The South Koreans will do fine without us. I have confidence in them.

AmPat
11-25-2010, 02:05 PM
I don't understand this bloodlust. Everyone is so eager to go to war. You can't forget that if war were to break out, not just the small skirmishes that happen every now and then, that Seoul would destroyed in hours. It is just a stone's throw (or artilery blast) from the border.

the DPRK has a very powerful military and could possibly get the support of china, even if they didn't and they were able to be defeated relatively quickly with large scale intervention from the US (costing us dearly), South Korea would still be screwed for decades.

Nothing good could come from large scale war breaking out, I can't understand the people who seem so giddy at the prospect of us being able to drop some bombs on some people

Your'e right. Much better to let the Hanguks from the north kill SK soldiers, bomb civilian targets, and sink SK ships without consequences. That'll teach em. :rolleyes:

Is there anything you liberal weenies won't surrender to?

AmPat
11-25-2010, 02:10 PM
I think the best retaliation would be an attack on their nuclear facility or facilities. A guy on FOX suggested taking out their navy in port, saying that if they have to rebuild their navy, it'll take some of their focus off their nuclear intentions for a while.

I guess that the main reason not to use full-out military retaliation is fear of how China is going to react.

Plan B would be getting the CIA to find/manufacture evidence that Lil Kim has defamed the Prophet Mohammed and let the subsequent events play themselves out.
Well, we see China's reaction to the sinking of the ship and the artillery barrage. That is all we need to know. China is as guilty as NK. Bomb the crap out of NK and send China a message as well.

AmPat
11-25-2010, 02:49 PM
sorry rock wont happen again :(

Any chance to rip dallas I have to take it :)

"To the Boo Box!";)

Sonnabend
11-30-2010, 06:55 AM
Hundreds of thousands of people died in Iraq, most of them civilians caught up in the chaos.

No they didnt, the number was much much lower than that. Lancet lied.

Sonnabend
11-30-2010, 06:59 AM
In other words the US would be a lot better off by minding our own business and stay out of conflicts that have nothing to do with our own security. Especially a land war n Asia.

Funny, I remember a sentiment just like this one being US policy..just before Dec 7 1941.

Some people have a very short memory. Would you have said the same about Hitler? Yes.

Can Sth Korea handle a full scale invasion from the North? No. Is China already involved helping the NorK's? Yes.

Does the fall of South Korea have repercussions for US security?

You better believe it.

Odysseus
12-01-2010, 06:53 PM
Secure that shit. This is unacceptable.

Gator is a vet.

Whatever your opinion of his views, he served in the US Armed Forces in a time of war. He is not a traitor, and it's disgraceful for you or anyone else to say so.

Debate vets all you want, but do not disrepect them here.

I will not warn you again.

Gator has called me a traitor more times than I can count, impugned my service and attacked me as both an officer and a man. Why isn't he banned? Examples follow:


Originally Posted by gator
It is obvious that you don't care about the troops. All you care about is your beloved Israel.
If you cared about the troops then you would support the crewmembers of the USS Liberty and their fight to expose the treachery of the Israelis.
If you cared about the troops then you would not want them to die so that the millionaires of Israel will be safe from Saddam.
I feel sorry for anybody that has to serve with you seeing that you only care for a foreign country and don't really give a shit about America.

I don't know if you have a staff job or a line job in the Army. I really feel sorry for the troops if you have a line job.
Do these guys really know that you will sell out to Israel if given the opportunity? Do they know that you give a pass to those Israelis bastards that attacked America and killed American servicemen even after the Joint Chief of Staff and the Assistant Commandant of the Marines (MOH Awardee) said the goddamn Israelis did it on purpose?
Do they know that you love a country that did more damage to American Intelligence than Benedict Arnold?
I suspect they donít know where your real loyalties lie, do they? You probably take well care of them as long as they are fighting the enemies of Israel but heaven help them if it ever become between them and the interest of Israel. I suspect you would sell them out just like you sell out the crewmembers of the USS Liberty.

Why are you in the American Army? Why aren't you serving with the IDF? They could put you in charge of the next attack on America or maybe coordinating the spy missions. Maybe they could put you in charge of stealing land from the Palestinians. Maybe you would get the most choice assignement in the IDF and be put in charge of killing Palestinian women and children.

You are a worthless piece of shit because you believe a foreign country that attacked America over the word of our own military including two Medal of Honor awardees and a past Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff. You do it because you are Jewish and you support the Jewish state rather than your own contry.

As far as your stupid assertion that the extended combined arms attack of the well identified USS Liberty was a ďfriendly fireĒ incident in spite of all the evidence that I have posted to the contrary just shows that you have no intention of holding your Israelis buddies accountable. You ignore all the evidence because you do not want to hold the Israelis accountable for anything. You just want them to live well and you donít care how much American money it cost or how many American lives. You think that way because you are Jewish and the preservation of the Jewish State is more important to you than your own country.

He liked his tour of duty in Iraq because that made the Middle East safer for his beloved Israel.
Since he is Jewish then I understand that mindset.

Odysseys is a stupid NeoCon whose only agenda is to defend Israel and he shouldnít get a pass for his moronic views just because he is serving in the military.

You donít deserve the respect of any decent American because you donít give a shit about America and all you want to do is make sure that Israel lives well and you donít give a fuck how many American lives or American dollars it takes, do you?
Piss on you.

You have no intentions of admitting that being a Jew causes you to believe the spin and misinformation of the Israeli government over the interest of America do you? In your distorted mind the security of Israel always becomes the top priority regardless of the harm done to America, isnít it? You are incapable of thinking otherwise, aren't you?

At least Odysseus has a reason. Being Jewish his loyalties lie with the Jewish State instead of America and I can actually understand that mindset. What I canít understand is the mindset of the NeoCons that will sell out their country in order to gain favor with the pro Israel lobby. I guess the big bucks of the pro Israel lobby talks very loud.

Sure it was a nutball question but it was designed to further the exposure of the filthiness of someone who is a card carrying member of the "I don't give a fuck about the damage Israel is doing to America" club. Sometimes when you are dealing with nutballs like Odysseus that loves a foreign country more than America you have to play on their level.

I know that in your hateful and arrogant mind anybody that has the audacity to question absolute loyalty to Israel is a loon but that is not the case in real life. Some of us actually put the interest of the United States ahead of some sleazy Middle East country that has attacked us, killed our servicemen and spied on us. To me you would have to be a loon to give them a pass.

As far as being an officer that doesnít buy you jackshit if you are going to impinge the honor of veterans and my country for your own personal agenda to protect the Jewish State.

You are a piece of shit because you refuse to be honest about the real reason you are trying to justify perpetual war by the United States in the Middle East in order to make Israel safe.

It is not slander when it is the truth. You have done nothing on this thread but demean and ridicule those real Americans that question our relationship with Israel and who have been exposing the treachery of the attack on the USS Liberty. To you that is unacceptable because in your mind Israel can do no wrong, even when they fuck the United States.

If ďgrowing upĒ is to kiss the ass of the Israelis and give them my money and to let pieces of shit slander our veterans and put the interest of a foreign country ahead of my own without being exposed then I will pass.
You were saying...?

Rockntractor
12-01-2010, 07:01 PM
Gator has called me a traitor more times than I can count, impugned my service and attacked me as both an officer and a man. Why isn't he banned? Examples follow:













You were saying...?

He won't be doing it anymore.

hampshirebrit
12-01-2010, 07:15 PM
You were saying...?

I'm glad someone's challenged me on this. I was about to give up hope that this would happen.

The bulk of the statements you've cited are lamentable, and several of them are borderline for consideration for banning.

That said, the borderline was not crossed. Close, but not crossed. That does not mean that the poster making them (two in particular) should not feel ashamed at making them, and feel the need to withdraw them.

Concerning the rule, if the border is crossed, then a ban, quite likely a lengthy one, will follow.

Serving, vet, and non-mil. There are no exceptions to this rule.

Kay
12-01-2010, 08:51 PM
Well that explains a few things for me.

Zathras
12-02-2010, 09:57 AM
I'm glad someone's challenged me on this. I was about to give up hope that this would happen.

The bulk of the statements you've cited are lamentable, and several of them are borderline for consideration for banning.

That said, the borderline was not crossed. Close, but not crossed. That does not mean that the poster making them (two in particular) should not feel ashamed at making them, and feel the need to withdraw them.

Concerning the rule, if the border is crossed, then a ban, quite likely a lengthy one, will follow.

Serving, vet, and non-mil. There are no exceptions to this rule.

Sorry, but I'm calling shenanigans on the bolded statement. If anyone else had made those statements they would be banned. Not only was the line crossed, but it was obliterated. But, for some reason, Herr Gator is still here.

Odysseus
12-02-2010, 12:09 PM
I'm glad someone's challenged me on this. I was about to give up hope that this would happen.

The bulk of the statements you've cited are lamentable, and several of them are borderline for consideration for banning.

That said, the borderline was not crossed. Close, but not crossed. That does not mean that the poster making them (two in particular) should not feel ashamed at making them, and feel the need to withdraw them.

Concerning the rule, if the border is crossed, then a ban, quite likely a lengthy one, will follow.

Serving, vet, and non-mil. There are no exceptions to this rule.
Uh, hate to disagree with you, but some of those comments were so far over the line that they're no longer on the field. Gator accused me of being disloyal to my country and my own troops, of being willing to kill my own troops for Israel, and of being divided in my loyalties because I am a Jew. Those are horrific accusations from a diseased mind. Gator didn't approach the border, he cross and obliterated the border.


Sorry, but I'm calling shenanigans on the bolded statement. If anyone else had made those statements they would be banned. Not only was the line crossed, but it was obliterated. But, for some reason, Herr Gator is still here.

Well, Gator no longer talks directly to me. He's got me on his ignore list, since he got tired of being spanked, but feel free to ask him a question the next time the subject comes up: Gator considers Israelis "filthy" and "bastards" but claims to have no problem with Jews. However, there are Christian Israelis and Muslim/Arab Israelis. When he makes his blanket condemnations of Israel, or the Jewish State, as he has also called it, does he include those people in his attacks, or if not, exactly which Israelis does he consider filthy?

Bailey
12-02-2010, 12:31 PM
Uh, hate to disagree with you, but some of those comments were so far over the line that they're no longer on the field. Gator accused me of being disloyal to my country and my own troops, of being willing to kill my own troops for Israel, and of being divided in my loyalties because I am a Jew. Those are horrific accusations from a diseased mind. Gator didn't approach the border, he cross and obliterated the border.



Well, Gator no longer talks directly to me. He's got me on his ignore list, since he got tired of being spanked, but feel free to ask him a question the next time the subject comes up: Gator considers Israelis "filthy" and "bastards" but claims to have no problem with Jews. However, there are Christian Israelis and Muslim/Arab Israelis. When he makes his blanket condemnations of Israel, or the Jewish State, as he has also called it, does he include those people in his attacks, or if not, exactly which Israelis does he consider filthy?



He annexed the country the border belonged to thats how far he crossed it :)

Hell if Gator lived in the UK or Canada he might be under arrest for the comments he has made to you.

hampshirebrit
12-02-2010, 01:25 PM
Uh, hate to disagree with you, but some of those comments were so far over the line that they're no longer on the field. Gator accused me of being disloyal to my country and my own troops, of being willing to kill my own troops for Israel, and of being divided in my loyalties because I am a Jew. Those are horrific accusations from a diseased mind. Gator didn't approach the border, he cross and obliterated the border.


I have seen some other comments today that are a lot worse.

I am making a commitment to you specifically, and to all of CU, that further attacks like these will not be tolerated, and the poster making them will be sanctioned accordingly and immediately, and without exception.

Any slurs of this nature against a veteran or currently serving military personnel are UNACCEPTABLE, and no less so when the person making the slur has himself served in the Armed Forces.

gator
12-03-2010, 06:43 PM
Well that explains a few things for me.

That doesn't explain everything Kay. There is another whole set of comments by several individuals that have been omitted. Unlike other people I am not obsessed with archiving threads a few years old so I am not going to post the other side of the story.

For instance, comments ridiculing and demeaning the crewmen of the USS Liberty and the brave military personnel like Cpt Ward Boston that blew the whistle on the Israelis.

You want to have a lot of fun Kay? Start a thread on the treachery of the attack and cover-up of the USS Liberty. Those threads usually go 500-1000 post and there is more name calling and whining that you could imagine in your wildest dreams.

The Israelis killed American servicemen and there is significant evidence they did it on purpose. I am not one of the people that give a pass to countries that attack and kill Americans. There are some people that donít like that. God bless them.

Rockntractor
12-03-2010, 06:57 PM
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/602__image_091.jpg?t=1291420570

djones520
12-03-2010, 07:01 PM
For instance, comments ridiculing and demeaning the crewmen of the USS Liberty and the brave military personnel like Cpt Ward Boston that blew the whistle on the Israelis.


Show one single post. Just one.

Kay
12-03-2010, 10:07 PM
That doesn't explain everything Kay.

I didn't say I picked a side. I haven't been here all that long, and
didn't know what the backstory was, but could tell that there was
some kind of big blow up that must have been pretty major. What
I meant by "that explains a few things to me" is now I understand
what all the bad blood was over. This is not my fight.

Zathras
12-04-2010, 04:51 AM
Show one single post. Just one.

*chirping of crickets*

gator
12-04-2010, 09:24 AM
*chirping of crickets*

Read my post above where I said I am not going rehash two or three year old posts and play tit for tat. I am not obsessed with it like other people.

If you want to discuss the moral implications of supporting a foreign government over the interest of your own country then start a new thread on the subject and if it is interesting enough I may jump in.

Rockntractor
12-04-2010, 09:58 AM
Read my post above where I said I am not going rehash two or three year old posts and play tit for tat. I am not obsessed with it like other people.

If you want to discuss the moral implications of supporting a foreign government over the interest of your own country then start a new thread on the subject and if it is interesting enough I may jump in.
I can understand you not wanting to rehash old posts but if you plan to make claims be prepared to back them up.

Rockntractor
12-04-2010, 10:18 AM
For instance, comments ridiculing and demeaning the crewmen of the USS Liberty and the brave military personnel like Cpt Ward Boston that blew the whistle on the Israelis.
Gator you made a blanket attack on CUers claiming we ridiculed US Troops while dieing in service to our country, now back these comments up with proof or remove them!

gator
12-04-2010, 10:18 AM
I can understand you not wanting to rehash old posts but if you plan to make claims be prepared to back them up.

What if I would spend the hour or so it would take to search the archive for the statements that were made? Some of them go back to 2006 or 2007.

What difference would it make? There will still be the spin and denial. I would post the other statements and then all we would have is the same pissing match that we had back then that went on for 1000 post. It got us nowhere then so what makes you think it is worthwhile now?

Statements were made impinging the testimony of the Liberty crewmembers and the men like Adm Moorer that blew the whistle on the treachery and the cover up of the Israeli attack. If you read the threads back then you may remember them. It was not just the denial of facts but personal attacks on the men that had the audacity to tell the truth about Israel.

The people that supports Israel do not like to hear anyone say anything against Israel and even if it is men whose credibility were above reproach. The Israelis supporters here on CU are just as vicious in their attacks on anybody that exposes the treachery of Israel as anybody else.

If you honestly donít remember and you are really interested in knowing what was said that led to the question of real loyalty then go look it up yourself. As Hamp said he doesnít want the subject to be rehashed.

If you want to discuss the subject of putting the loyalty of a foreign country ahead of the interest of your own country then start a thread and if it is interesting enough I may join in.

djones520
12-04-2010, 11:39 AM
Mr. Moral Clarity has a problem with projection. Apparently if anyone says that someone may have been wrong, it's a personal attack against their honor.

He won't show any proof that anyone slandered any of the survivors of the Liberty incident because he has none, and there was never any such case.

Nubs
12-04-2010, 12:35 PM
In todays's weather, a medium to severe shitstorm with 80% chance of corn.

Odysseus
12-04-2010, 01:41 PM
What if I would spend the hour or so it would take to search the archive for the statements that were made? Some of them go back to 2006 or 2007.

What difference would it make? There will still be the spin and denial. I would post the other statements and then all we would have is the same pissing match that we had back then that went on for 1000 post. It got us nowhere then so what makes you think it is worthwhile now?

Statements were made impinging the testimony of the Liberty crewmembers and the men like Adm Moorer that blew the whistle on the treachery and the cover up of the Israeli attack. If you read the threads back then you may remember them. It was not just the denial of facts but personal attacks on the men that had the audacity to tell the truth about Israel.

The people that supports Israel do not like to hear anyone say anything against Israel and even if it is men whose credibility were above reproach. The Israelis supporters here on CU are just as vicious in their attacks on anybody that exposes the treachery of Israel as anybody else.

If you honestly donít remember and you are really interested in knowing what was said that led to the question of real loyalty then go look it up yourself. As Hamp said he doesnít want the subject to be rehashed.

If you want to discuss the subject of putting the loyalty of a foreign country ahead of the interest of your own country then start a thread and if it is interesting enough I may join in.
Funny, but when I make a claim, I link to it or quote it. You give us a long screed about why you won't provide proof. That's the greatest proof that I could ask for. You're a liar, Gator. And a bigot.

Mr. Moral Clarity has a problem with projection. Apparently if anyone says that someone may have been wrong, it's a personal attack against their honor.

He won't show any proof that anyone slandered any of the survivors of the Liberty incident because he has none, and there was never any such case.
Exactly. Gator always jumped into threads that had nothing to do with the Liberty, trashed Israel and anyone who defended it, and then claimed that we were the worst of the worst in the kind of language that he's infamous for, then declared victory and went on to do it again, only the next time, he would claim that he'd won the previous rounds.

gator
12-04-2010, 02:19 PM
Mr. Moral Clarity has a problem with projection. Apparently if anyone says that someone may have been wrong, it's a personal attack against their honor.

He won't show any proof that anyone slandered any of the survivors of the Liberty incident because he has none, and there was never any such case.

There are a few things that Mr. Moral Clarity understands where other people seem to have difficulty.

For instance, Mr Moral Clarity understands than when a country attacks the US it is considered the right thing to do to take the side of America instead of the enemy.

Mr Moral Clarity understands that you donít demean the American servicemen that were attacked in order to give the enemy that attacked them a pass.

Mr. Moral Clarity understands very well that you should put the interest of the US ahead of the interest of a foreign country.

Some people that donít have as much moral clarity as Mr Moral Clarity just doesnít get it and never will. All they do is whine and cry like a little school girl when Mr. Moral Clarity reminds them of their responsibilities.

gator
12-04-2010, 02:22 PM
Gator you made a blanket attack on CUers claiming we ridiculed US Troops while dieing in service to our country, now back these comments up with proof or remove them!

Rock I am a CUer. In fact I have been a CUer a lot longer than you have. I really don't need your opinion on this topic.

Hamp said he doesn't want to have another pissing match. What part of that don't you understand? I am quite capable of holding up my side of the discussion in a pissing match as I have done numerous times. Just because either you weren't around when the original posts were made or else you forgot it doesn't mean it is my responsibility to repost 2-3 year old threads and do what Hamp siad he doesn't want done.

Go look them up yourself if you are interested.

Rockntractor
12-04-2010, 02:32 PM
Rock I am a CUer. In fact I have been a CUer a lot longer than you have. I really don't need your opinion on this topic.

Hamp said he doesn't want to have another pissing match. What part of that don't you understand? I am quite capable of holding up my side of the discussion in a pissing match as I have done numerous times. Just because either you weren't around when the original posts were made or else you forgot it doesn't mean it is my responsibility to repost 2-3 year old threads and do what Hamp siad he doesn't want done.

Go look them up yourself if you are interested.

You will get my opinion any time I care to give it to you and I'm well aware of your history on this board. If anyone fails to have understanding it is you.

SaintLouieWoman
12-04-2010, 10:50 PM
Read my post above where I said I am not going rehash two or three year old posts and play tit for tat. I am not obsessed with it like other people.

If you want to discuss the moral implications of supporting a foreign government over the interest of your own country then start a new thread on the subject and if it is interesting enough I may jump in.

Then why do you constantly talk about the Liberty? You were here longer than I have been (but not by much--we both have Sept 2002 as our starting points), but I remember the many, many times you've harped on it. It's probably a good thing to get over it and move on. There are many other grave issues facing our country now.