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megimoo
11-29-2010, 04:26 PM
France Seizes €36bn of Pension Assets

"1 euro=1.3091 US dollars,Coming Soon to a Country Near You ."

There have been unsubstantiated rumors for years that the American government will also seize 401(k) money.

Asset managers will have the chance to get billions of euros in mandates in the next few months for the €36bn Fonds de Réserve pour les Retraites (FRR), the French reserve pension fund, after the French parliament last week passed a law to use its assets to pay off the debts of France’s welfare system.

The assets have been transferred into the state’s social debt sinking fund Cades. The FRR will continue to control the assets, but as a third-party manager on behalf of Cades.

The change is included in the annual social security law that was adopted last week and will be published by the end of December after anticipated approval by the constitutional court.

The move reflects a willingness by governments to use long-term assets to fill short-term deficits, including Ireland’s announcement last week that it would use the country’s €24bn National Pensions Reserve Fund “to support the exchequer’s funding programme” and Hungary’s bid to claw $15bn of private pension funds back to the state system.

http://www.efinancialnews.com/story/2010-11-29/france-seizes-euro-36bn-of-pension-assets

Comments:
Speaking of pilferage......

90 per cent of EU budget 'materially affected' by irregularities, report finds
........
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8120412/90-per-cent-of-EU-budget-materially-affected-by-irregularities-report-finds.html
.......
More than nine tenths of the EU's budget last year, spending that totalled £94 billion, was "materially affected" by irregularities that included the improper award of contracts worth over £4 billion, Europe's Court of Auditors has found.

.................

megimoo
11-29-2010, 04:29 PM
France, Ireland and Hungary Seize Pensions As Part of Move By Governments to Use Long Term Assets to Fill Short-Term Deficits

France is apparently following the example of Ireland and Hungary and seizing pension funds.

According to eFinancialNews, the French parliament passed a law last week allowing 36 billion Euros to be seized from the French reserve pension fund to be used to pay off the debts of France’s welfare system.

As eFinancialNews notes:



http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2010/11/29/france-ireland-and-hungary-seize-pensions-as-part-of-move-by-governments-to-use-long-term-assets-to-fill-short-term-deficits-7422/

lacarnut
11-29-2010, 04:46 PM
If the US government managed it as well as the S.S. system, you would get back pennies on the dollar. That is scary.

NJCardFan
11-29-2010, 05:34 PM
If the government even tried this there should be armed conflict. If they're allowed to seize 401k's, who's to say that their next move is your IRA and even your savings account?

CaughtintheMiddle1990
11-30-2010, 07:34 AM
I thought pensions of any kind are a bad thing?
Or at least, Glenn Beck claims so.

Apocalypse
11-30-2010, 08:49 AM
And how will they pay for the damages after the riots? This will not end well in France.

NJCardFan
11-30-2010, 10:14 AM
I thought pensions of any kind are a bad thing?
Or at least, Glenn Beck claims so.

Not really, as long as the employee is also making a contribution. But even the employer contribution is a part of the employees salary, just deferred.

Odysseus
11-30-2010, 03:18 PM
If the government even tried this there should be armed conflict. If they're allowed to seize 401k's, who's to say that their next move is your IRA and even your savings account?
Once you establish the precedent that government can confiscate 401K accounts, there is nothing standing between them and any cash held in reserve in any account. It would be anarchy.

I thought pensions of any kind are a bad thing?
Or at least, Glenn Beck claims so.
No. Defined Benefit Pensions are a bad thing. That's where you are guaranteed a fixed percentage of your old salary, regardless of market performance. A 401K or IRA is simply a savings account that is managed like a mutual fund, the difference between the two being that one includes matching employer funds, while the other is just employee funds.

NJCardFan
11-30-2010, 07:54 PM
Once you establish the precedent that government can confiscate 401K accounts, there is nothing standing between them and any cash held in reserve in any account. It would be anarchy.



Actually, people will be back to hiding money in their mattresses and freezers instead of banks.

Madisonian
11-30-2010, 08:11 PM
If the government even tried this there should be armed conflict. If they're allowed to seize 401k's, who's to say that their next move is your IRA and even your savings account?

All the government has to say is that it is being seized to pay for "National Security" to find the "terrorists" and people will object to that as much as the current TSA intrusions. Also, since we really don't have physical possession of the funds, it is not really "ours" and further as Kelo allowed the taking of private property for "public good", the feds could probably make and win an eminent domain case to confiscate it.

Just another conspiracy theory right?

Odysseus
12-01-2010, 11:01 AM
All the government has to say is that it is being seized to pay for "National Security" to find the "terrorists" and people will object to that as much as the current TSA intrusions. Also, since we really don't have physical possession of the funds, it is not really "ours" and further as Kelo allowed the taking of private property for "public good", the feds could probably make and win an eminent domain case to confiscate it.

Just another conspiracy theory right?

The TSA intrusions are starting to generate a serious backlash, and there's no financial hardship there. If the government tried to grab our retirement savings by claiming that it was a national security measure, they would enrage a lot more people than you think.

ironhorsedriver
12-01-2010, 03:08 PM
Let's see, my 401K is my money, contributed by me, from my salaried income, just what right does the government have to touch it?

Odysseus
12-01-2010, 03:18 PM
Let's see, my 401K is my money, contributed by me, from my salaried income, just what right does the government have to touch it?

None. But when has that ever stopped them?

Teddy Kennedy
12-01-2010, 03:22 PM
I look for a vat tax before the feds try and seize personal assets.

Odysseus
12-01-2010, 03:35 PM
I look for a vat tax before the feds try and seize personal assets.

Seizing assets is definitely a last resort for our government, just as it was for France, but eventually, when a government runs out of money and cannot fund its operations through legitimate means, it will resort to outright theft. The Roman government began seizing estates under Tiberius, but Caligula elevated it to an artform by holding sham treason trials and then expropriating the property of the "guilty" and destroying wills, which meant that intestate assets could be confiscated.

ironhorsedriver
12-01-2010, 03:46 PM
Well, we definitely have a Cesear wannabe in office.

Teddy Kennedy
12-01-2010, 04:15 PM
Seizing assets is definitely a last resort for our government, just as it was for France, but eventually, when a government runs out of money and cannot fund its operations through legitimate means, it will resort to outright theft. The Roman government began seizing estates under Tiberius, but Caligula elevated it to an artform by holding sham treason trials and then expropriating the property of the "guilty" and destroying wills, which meant that intestate assets could be confiscated.

Let the show trials commence. I've often wondered what the tipping point of Americans is. If this comes to
pass, this may very well be it. I wouldn't put anything past obama, the dems and the rino's.

Odysseus
12-01-2010, 05:26 PM
Well, we definitely have a Cesear wannabe in office.
I often think that we are paralleling the Roman imperium. Augustus was a superb ruler who ultimately preserved Rome after a period of weakness and instability, even if it was no longer a republic. Tiberius was also able, but lacked Augustus' moral rectitude and vision. Caligula was a degenerate who saw the empire as his personal toy. Claudius was derided as an idiot and a fool, but left Rome better than he found it, and Nero was a dilletante who considered governing a chore that interfered with his pleasures, and who loved to persecute those who thought differently than he did. By the same token, Reagan took office after Carter, who was arguably the weakest president in history (until now), Bush 41 was a capable caretaker, but lacked Reagan's vision, Clinton was a sex fiend who let his appetites consume him, Bush 43 was reviled and vilified, but ultimately proved to be an honorable man, and Obama is our Nero, a dilletante who doesn't deign to govern.

Let the show trials commence. I've often wondered what the tipping point of Americans is. If this comes to
pass, this may very well be it. I wouldn't put anything past obama, the dems and the rino's.

Dems, certainly. Most RINOs see themselves as cool, careful thinkers who lack the destructive passions of the mob. Think Bush 41, Gerry Ford and Ike for the best of the breed, and Charlie Crist, Arlen Specter and Jim Jeffords for the worst. The good ones would balk at such an obvious power play, as even Collins and Snowe did on Obamacare, while the bad ones would sign on for anything that they thought would keep them in office.

lacarnut
12-01-2010, 07:44 PM
I do not see the government touching 401k savings account. However, pension funds of federal, state and municipal workers have unfunded liabilites of 20% or more in many localities. So what I see is the federal government riding in on a white horse (more like a jackass) to rescue these pension funds that have trillions of dollars sitting in their coffers. A large increase in gasoline taxes or a VAT tax would probably happen before the Feds mess with pensions or savings accounts.

m00
12-03-2010, 12:02 AM
Not really, as long as the employee is also making a contribution. But even the employer contribution is a part of the employees salary, just deferred.

I like how it works in Australia, which is kinda like this. It's just "part" of the salary in a way. But you're better off, tax wise.

m00
12-03-2010, 12:04 AM
Let's see, my 401K is my money, contributed by me, from my salaried income, just what right does the government have to touch it?

By what right does the government have to do anything, that's not specifically enumerated in the Constitution?

Rockntractor
12-03-2010, 12:06 AM
By what right does the government have to do anything, that's not specifically enumerated in the Constitution?

They have bigger guns than we do.

m00
12-03-2010, 12:08 AM
They have bigger guns than we do.

Yes. They have entire agencies in place (paid for by Americans), with the ability to do things that would be illegal for normal citizens... and these agencies can be pointed at whomever the government deems a threat or nuisance.

Rockntractor
12-03-2010, 12:19 AM
Yes. They have entire agencies in place (paid for by Americans), with the ability to do things that would be illegal for normal citizens... and these agencies can be pointed at whomever the government deems a threat or nuisance.

and this must always be remembered when it comes to ones survival.