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View Full Version : Leaders you like or admire who were not Conservative



CaughtintheMiddle1990
12-13-2010, 07:21 AM
There are quite a few people whom I really admire, and like, personally who either weren't Conservative, or they weren't clearly so.

Teddy Roosevelt is one of them. He is, in some ways, a hero of mine. As I do drift more to the right in my views, I do still support TR. Even Reagan did, long after he became a Republican. I think, while he was wrong on some issues, right on others, he was a proud American, and I kind of agree with his stance that you're either an American or you're not. I admire the fact that he wasn't politically correct, that he was a brave warrior, and to quote Nixon on him, "He was always in the arena--tempestuous, strong, sometimes wrong, sometimes right. But he was a man."

I know some Conservatives hate him for his later stances with the Bull Moose party, or his views on race, but I think his overall pride in America, and his actions as President overcome it. And I can't blame someone who might've been a racist when racism was common; We're all subject to our upbringings. However, he didn't make racism a public policy like Wilson did, and that is admirable, and he actually furthered the cause of civil rights by having the unprecedented and utterly unpopular move of inviting Booker T. Washington to the White House for dinner--making him the first African American to do so.

I agree with the regulations that he put in place, especially in the context of the era, and the fact he didn't act on blind ideology in doing so. He read the book The Jungle by Upton Sinclair, but didn't just emotionally jump and introduce regulations because of it--He had a lot of people go and investigate to see whether the claims about the food industry were true and only began introducing regulations when the reports came in saying that in a great many instances, the horrors depicted in the Jungle were generally true. And his regulations weren't stifling, overzealous or overly complex as they are today--They were common sense. I very much disagree with Glenn Beck portraying him as some American hating Nazi.

MLK is another. The man was probably a Socialist of some sort--Not a Maoist or a Leninist--but a light Socialist, and yes, he was a cheater in his personal life, and did support reparations--These are all things I disagree with, all character flaws; BUT I believe that not only his message, but his actions, overcome his flawed beliefs or personal failings. He was a black man who grew up in an age where America wasn't the kindest it could be to the black population--That's not an indictment on America, but simply a truth--and King was a very intelligent man, very charismatic, a good speaker, and in the environment he grew up in, he could've easily become a racist and radical like Malcolm X.

He could've used his position of great influence over the black community to inspire uprisings, violence; To inspire further division and hate as X tried to. He could've been a separatist who felt that blacks and whites couldn't live together, or gone so far as to say blacks deserved their own nation, like black nationalists have. But he didn't. He rose above his time and place, and brought to the masses, joining both black and white in a message of forgiveness and peaceful cooperation. He used his position and his influence for good. He told his followers to take the bigotry hurled at them and not respond with violence, or hate in return but with love and peaceful protest. The man may have been flawed in his own ways, but I believe he rose above those flaws and was a great American.

Truman is also another. The man, while right wing of modern liberals, would probably still be a Liberal in today's political spectrum, but he was a guy who loved his country, and ended World War II as quickly as he could, so that fewer Americans would die and we could resume the business of peace that much faster. He could've easily went with more morally unquestionable doctrine of conventional war with the Japanese and went ahead with our planned invasion, which might possibly have sentenced millions of American soldiers to death--But instead he made one incredibly brave and tough decision and dropped the Bomb in order to prevent this. AND HE NEVER REGRETTED IT. He also wasn't all that subject to special interests for a Liberal Democrat--He did stand up to the unions when their strikes threatened the course of our country's commerce, which I feel is a common sense move, but how many modern Democrats would stand up to unions? Union membership reached a deep low during his Administration, or so I have read. I also admire the fact that he was a soldier AND a businessmen before becoming President--It's been a long time since we had a businessmen in office, and a long time since we had a president who was both a businessmen and veteran. He wasn't a patrician; He was a plain speaking, utterly common man from Missouri who didn't expect to become President (Not even he knew how sickly FDR was) but stood up to the challenge and did very well with it. Also, I find the fact that he was a staunch Anti-Communist admirable and he started the system of loyalty oaths before McCarthy even came on the scene.

He also didn't show any leniency or mercy for the Rosenbergs, even though if he wanted he could've issued a pardon, and they were made examples out of for their traitorous acts. He had his failings as President, with Korea and China, but I think overall he does deserve the ranking he often gets with historians as one of the best--At least, one of the best of modern times.

Rockntractor
12-13-2010, 08:58 AM
.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
12-13-2010, 09:06 AM
.

What?

Rockntractor
12-13-2010, 02:34 PM
What?

I listed all of them in alphabetical order.

Jfor
12-13-2010, 02:38 PM
I listed all of them in alphabetical order.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

hampshirebrit
12-13-2010, 02:40 PM
I listed all of them in alphabetical order.

LMAO. Post of the day. :D

Madisonian
12-13-2010, 03:19 PM
I listed all of them in alphabetical order.


LMAO. Post of the day. :D

That could well be post of the month or year if there is such a thing.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
12-13-2010, 03:22 PM
.

So you can't appreciate someone like MLK simply because he wasn't Conservative?

Articulate_Ape
12-13-2010, 03:28 PM
I would say that you have a very romanticized opinion of Teddy Roosevelt, CTM. I would suggest that you read this book (http://www.amazon.com/Who-Killed-Constitution-American-Liberty/dp/0307405753) sometime. I'm just sayin'.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
12-13-2010, 03:32 PM
I would say that you have a very romanticized opinion of Teddy Roosevelt, CTM. I would suggest that you read this book (http://www.amazon.com/Who-Killed-Constitution-American-Liberty/dp/0307405753) sometime. I'm just sayin'.

Most of those who attack TR seem to be those want to go back to total Laissez-Faire capitalism. Not my thing. I think we're a bit better off with anti-trust laws and food safety laws in place, personally.

NJCardFan
12-13-2010, 03:32 PM
So you can't appreciate someone like MLK simply because he wasn't Conservative?

Actually, MLK was a conservative in many aspects. In fact, he is what most blacks are today with the exception of being registered Republicans. MLK was a strong social conservative but an economic socialist. This is reflected today in a majority of blacks. Also, I admire his message but unfortunately, his message has been lost on the very people he was trying to lead.

PoliCon
12-13-2010, 03:35 PM
Most of those who attack TR seem to be those want to go back to total Laissez-Faire capitalism. Not my thing. I think we're a bit better off with anti-trust laws and food safety laws in place, personally.

Trusts that the government helped to create in the first place? Trusts and monopolies are generally the result of government interference in the free market and only a progressive could possibly think that more government is the answer to a problem government created in the fist place.

Articulate_Ape
12-13-2010, 03:37 PM
Actually, MLK was a conservative in many aspects. In fact, he is what most blacks are today with the exception of being registered Republicans. MLK was a strong social conservative but an economic socialist. This is reflected today in a majority of blacks. Also, I admire his message but unfortunately, his message has been lost on the very people he was trying to lead.


QFT. Great post.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
12-13-2010, 03:40 PM
Actually, MLK was a conservative in many aspects. In fact, he is what most blacks are today with the exception of being registered Republicans. MLK was a strong social conservative but an economic socialist. This is reflected today in a majority of blacks. Also, I admire his message but unfortunately, his message has been lost on the very people he was trying to lead.

So, social conservatism matters more than economic conservatism?
Personally I put economics before social issues.
My whole point to this thread was I don't think you have to agree with someone 100% on the issues to admire them or for them to even be considered good persons. I guess I was wrong.

PoliCon
12-13-2010, 03:40 PM
Attila the Hun . . . . Alexander the Great . . . . Constantine the Great . . . . Queen Elizabeth I . . . . Frederick the Great - King of Prussia . . . . Marcus Aurelius . . .

How's that?

Odysseus
12-13-2010, 04:01 PM
Regardless of Teddy's economic ideas, he resigned from a cushy job in order to form a regiment at his own expense to serve in Cuba. His desire to overcome his physical weaknesses and sickly childhood and his genuine love of America are great traits. He was and remains an admirable man, which whom I could agree to disagree on those other issues. Would I vote for him today for president? Possibly, but it would depend on a lot, including the opposing ticket (he wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd take him over any current Democrat and more than a few RINOs), after all, I held my nose long enough to pull the lever for McCain.

I would have a hard time with many of the great personalities on the left, not because of their politics, but because so many of them would hold me in such contempt that no meeting of the minds would be possible.

Rockntractor
12-13-2010, 04:04 PM
Actually, MLK was a conservative in many aspects. In fact, he is what most blacks are today with the exception of being registered Republicans. MLK was a strong social conservative but an economic socialist. This is reflected today in a majority of blacks. Also, I admire his message but unfortunately, his message has been lost on the very people he was trying to lead.
Right on, I was getting ready to give this reply.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
12-13-2010, 04:12 PM
The man who loves other countries as much as his own stands on a level with the man who loves other women as much as he loves his own wife. -- TR

"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education." -- TR

A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.
- TR

Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.
-- TR

I don't pity any man who does hard work worth doing. I admire him. I pity the creature who does not work, at whichever end of the social scale he may regard himself as being.
--TR

No great intellectual thing was ever done by great effort.
--TR

The first requisite of a good citizen in this republic of ours is that he shall be able and willing to pull his own weight.
--TR

The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
--TR

There can be no fifty-fifty Americanism in this country. There is room here for only 100% Americanism, only for those who are Americans and nothing else.
--TR

To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society.
--TR

When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer "Present" or "Not guilty."
--TR

He may have been a "Progressive", but his reforms were common sense and were pretty damn tame compared to anything the Democratic Party would attempt today. Many fans of Teddy seem to have a deep dislike for his cousin, and also for Obama.
To indict Teddy as some America hater is to indict John Adams (who put people in prison just for mocking his weight), Lincoln (who shut down anti-war newspapers and imprisoned people who were anti-war) and every single President of the 20th century.

Madisonian
12-13-2010, 04:15 PM
The man who loves other countries as much as his own stands on a level with the man who loves other women as much as he loves his own wife. -- TR

The man who loves other women as much as he loves his own wife and lets his wife find out, his body will never be found - Madisonian

Odysseus
12-13-2010, 04:45 PM
The man who loves other women as much as he loves his own wife and lets his wife find out, his body will never be found - Madisonian

LOL! I believe that's the Hillary doctrine... :D

NJCardFan
12-13-2010, 05:15 PM
So, social conservatism matters more than economic conservatism?
Personally I put economics before social issues.
My whole point to this thread was I don't think you have to agree with someone 100% on the issues to admire them or for them to even be considered good persons. I guess I was wrong.

Wow. *re-reads own post* Where in tarnations did you glean that? Did you simply gloss over what I put? Because I don't see where I said this at all.

BadCat
12-13-2010, 06:20 PM
Most of those who attack TR seem to be those want to go back to total Laissez-Faire capitalism. Not my thing. I think we're a bit better off with anti-trust laws and food safety laws in place, personally.

Really?

Are you too incompetent to figure out if you're eating bad food?

Anti-trust laws are a joke.

Rockntractor
12-13-2010, 06:40 PM
So, social conservatism matters more than economic conservatism?
Personally I put economics before social issues.
My whole point to this thread was I don't think you have to agree with someone 100% on the issues to admire them or for them to even be considered good persons. I guess I was wrong.

There is something I think your missing. A lot of us as conservatives think of ourselves as in the middle, we are constitutionalists and desire to conserve the meaning of the constitution as it was when it was written.
Someone to the left of the constitution is an enemy of the constitution, the want to change it by reinterpretation rather than the lawful method of amending it. Those too far to the right of the constitution are also enemies, leaning toward anarchy, theocracy and holding specific races as greater than others. A true conservative in my opinion is one that desires to keep our country the way the founders intended.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
12-13-2010, 07:58 PM
There is something I think your missing. A lot of us as conservatives think of ourselves as in the middle, we are constitutionalists and desire to conserve the meaning of the constitution as it was when it was written.
Someone to the left of the constitution is an enemy of the constitution, the want to change it by reinterpretation rather than the lawful method of amending it. Those too far to the right of the constitution are also enemies, leaning toward anarchy, theocracy and holding specific races as greater than others. A true conservative in my opinion is one that desires to keep our country the way the founders intended.

TR might have been a Progressive, but IMO he was a light Progressive. And I don't believe he had any outright hostility toward the Constitution, unlike Wilson (who felt the Constitution was outdated) or Obama. He made the executive a little bit more powerful, but otherwise as President I really don't see anything utterly wrong with his presidency. In 1912 he had moved a bit more to the left, but during his presidency compared to FDR, LBJ, Nixon and Obama he was a Conservative. I also think his patriotism and love of America can't really be questioned. He was someone who maybe had a different interpretation of the Constitution than a Conservative might, but I don't he was hostile to the nation's founding and he didn't do anything all that radical, and in the context of the era his reforms seemed much needed. I mean a nation can't stay exactly the same for 200 years. We couldn't be an agricultural nation forever, and our country had to adjust to that, and the early 20th century had it's share of challenges and I feel he met them pretty well.

That's the thing--I may not agree with him on everything, but I also think he loved this country very much. I can't say the same for Wilson (who wanted us to become a Parliamentary Democracy) and Obama. Every President has his share of flaws, and makes his share of mistakes, but if a President is someone who has shown a history of patriotism, I do think mistakes can be forgiven. Look at Warren G. Harding, Harding was one of the most Conservative Presidents ever, probably only next to Coolidge, yet Harding also established the first federal welfare program because he felt it was needed, even though it went against his philosophy of government's role.

That's why I admire him, amongst all the other reasons I said in the OP. We can simply agree to disagree on the matter. Reagan seemed to agree with me on TR, though.

PoliCon
12-13-2010, 08:02 PM
IMO he was a light Progressive. that's like saying someone has a touch of aids or a little hepatitis or is a tiny bit ghey. :rolleyes:

CaughtintheMiddle1990
12-13-2010, 08:18 PM
that's like saying someone has a touch of aids or a little hepatitis or is a tiny bit ghey. :rolleyes:

He flirted with Progressivism around 1912, before returning to the Republican Party and was likely going to run against Wilson in 1920 on the GOP ticket, but he died in 1919. He wasn't an America hating socialist.

I'll put it this way: If he was this horrible, despicable, subhuman being, why did Reagan celebrate him even when Reagan was President? Why did Reagan describe him as an "American Renaissance man"?:

''Today marks the beginning of a year-long celebration commemorating the one hundred twenty-fifth anniversary of the birth of Theodore Roosevelt, one of America's heroes and larger-than-life personalities.

Born with considerable physical handicaps, Theodore Roosevelt overcame his afflictions and drew strength from his triumph over personal adversity, a strength he would later devote to the public good. Through sheer willpower, he became a rugged outdoorsman and active conservationist, the organizer of the Rough Riders, a fearless crusader against corruption and for law and order, an explorer, a social reformer and author, our youngest President, and the first of our citizens to receive the Nobel Peace Prize. He was truly an American Renaissance man. His life was a voyage of discovery guided by deep principle and private morality.

He was also our first modern chief executive, rejecting isolationism and leading America into active participation in world decisions for which we shared responsibility. Never again would the leaders of the Old World act without regard to this new world power called the United States. He understood our people and our spirit. He identified the national character with the words, "Americanism means the virtues of courage, honor, justice, truth, sincerity, and hardihood—the virtues that made America." And I might add, the virtues that made Theodore Roosevelt.

Now, Therefore, I Ronald Reagan, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim October 27, 1982, as a Day of National Celebration of the one hundred twenty-fifth anniversary of the birth of Theodore Roosevelt. I ask all Americans to join me in commemorating the birth of this fearless American hero. Let us redouble our efforts to confront adversity and promote the virtues and ideals of Americanism.

In Witness Whereof, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-seventh day of October, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and eighty-two, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and seventh.

RONALD REAGAN''

Reagan Proclamation 4992.

Rockntractor
12-13-2010, 09:12 PM
that's like saying someone has a touch of aids or a little hepatitis or is a tiny bit ghey. :rolleyes:

Sometimes your a little girly!

PoliCon
12-13-2010, 09:41 PM
Sometimes your a little girly!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJAioFb3IOA

The tongue is a wagging but nothing sensible is coming out. :p

m00
12-13-2010, 09:43 PM
Thomas Jefferson

Rockntractor
12-13-2010, 10:03 PM
The tongue is a wagging but nothing sensible is coming out. :p

Polican the early years
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/review-tutu-julia.jpg?t=1292295552

PoliCon
12-13-2010, 10:05 PM
Polican the early years
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/review-tutu-julia.jpg?t=1292295552

no actually - this is me the early years:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo290/mindyobeeznis/LILDEVIL.jpg

That one is clearly bubba

BadCat
12-13-2010, 10:17 PM
You haven't changed a bit.

Odysseus
12-14-2010, 11:40 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJAioFb3IOA

The tongue is a wagging but nothing sensible is coming out. :p

It's always amusing when the teleprompter goes down. :D

PoliCon
12-14-2010, 11:53 AM
It's always amusing when the teleprompter goes down. :D

ROTFL!:D

PoliCon
12-14-2010, 11:55 AM
You haven't changed a bit.

who? me? :D