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View Full Version : If Jesus was alive today, he would probably be-



Wei Wu Wei
12-15-2010, 11:58 AM
http://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-goldberg-tells-bill-oreilly-jesus-probably-would-be-a-liberal-democrat-2010-12


Bernie Goldberg went on Bill O'Reilly last night to defend a column he wrote called "Thank God for Rich People," -- and he made a lot of bold claims in the process.

Goldberg is sick of the rich being "vilified" by the left. He feels sorry for the rich.

Fair enough. We suppose the rich need defenders, too.

But the rich don't only need defenders, according to Goldberg. They also need monuments:

"We need to build a beautiful granite and bronze monument in our nation's capital to honor the rich," he suggests. (He is only "half" kidding.")

Goldberg has nothing against poor or middle class people, but "try to imagine an America without rich people!"

O'Reilly countered by quoting Matthew 19:24 from the Bible: "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Goldberg shot back: "I don't care what the bible says on matter! Jesus probably would be, except for one or two issues, a liberal democrat today." Merry Christmas from Fox.


Funny.

Personally, I believe if Jesus were alive today those in power woud try to execute him (again). Nothing draws more hate and antagonism and divisiveness than Love and Truth,

megimoo
12-15-2010, 12:44 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-goldberg-tells-bill-oreilly-jesus-probably-would-be-a-liberal-democrat-2010-12




Funny.

Personally, I believe if Jesus were alive today those in power woud try to execute him (again). Nothing draws more hate and antagonism and divisiveness than Love and Truth,
Do you mean " Love and Truth" of the sort those on the left who advocate killing the unborn and those two old and poor to afford medication, who have become an unaffordable burden to their Progressive ideas of society ?

Methinks that Jesus would condemn such people as demons and cast them out !Jesus chose the sick,poor and weak as his associates .He avoided those in power as being of this world and not of his coming kingdom !No, He would be of neither political party and condemn both as evil and of this world .

He would speak against Planned Parenthood,Abortion providers,Death Panels and Hypocritical politicians who profess Christianity and in the same breath advocate abortions.Those are the ones who would plot his second death.

In either case this time he comes in power with his Angelic legion to cleanse and gather his own sheep .

PoliCon
12-15-2010, 12:46 PM
Christ was apolitical. He wouldn't choose sides in any political contest. :rolleyes:

Rebel Yell
12-15-2010, 12:51 PM
If Jesus were alive today, we would be all for redistribution of wealth. Congregations give to their church, and the church use that money to help the needy. That is the way it suppose to work, not the government take your money with a threat of inprisonment and give it to the lazy.

Paul writes in Thessalonians 3:10-12:

"If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work but busybodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their own work quietly and to earn their own living."

wilbur
12-15-2010, 01:26 PM
If Jesus were alive today, none of us would know it, because he would be preaching to some backwater illiterate tribe of people off in the Amazon or something - a few decades (or even hundreds) of years after the fact, the rumors and stories might trickle out to other regions. Some literate people in these other places might decide to write and record some of the rumors that finally trickled their way over the years. Then our descendants might actually know about it.

PoliCon
12-15-2010, 01:29 PM
If Jesus were alive today, none of us would know it, because he would be preaching to some backwater illiterate tribe of people off in the Amazon or something - a few decades (or even hundreds) of years after the fact, people elsewhere might start decide to write and publish the rumors that finally trickled their way over the years. Then our descendants might actually know about it.

Wow. Nice bit of antisemitism there wilbur. Been taking lessons from gator?

wilbur
12-15-2010, 01:34 PM
Wow. Nice bit of antisemitism there wilbur. Been taking lessons from gator?

Hahah, what?!?!?

PoliCon
12-15-2010, 01:39 PM
Hahah, what?!?!?


backwater illiterate tribe The Jews were neither backwater nor illiterate but that's ok. You go ahead and run with your antisemitism.

Apache
12-15-2010, 01:41 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-goldberg-tells-bill-oreilly-jesus-probably-would-be-a-liberal-democrat-2010-12




Funny.

Personally, I believe if Jesus were alive today those in power woud try to execute him (again). Nothing draws more hate and antagonism and divisiveness than Love and Truth,

What utter BS! I hate it when people try to polticize What Jesus would or wouldn't be. :mad:

Apache
12-15-2010, 01:43 PM
If Jesus were alive today, none of us would know it, because he would be preaching to some backwater illiterate tribe of people off in the Amazon or something - a few decades (or even hundreds) of years after the fact, the rumors and stories might trickle out to other regions. Some literate people in these other places might decide to write and record some of the rumors that finally trickled their way over the years. Then our descendants might actually know about it.

Thus proving, once again, you know nothing of Christianity...:rolleyes:

hampshirebrit
12-15-2010, 01:50 PM
The Jews were neither backwater nor illiterate but that's ok. You go ahead and run with your antisemitism.

Most ridiculous post of the day.

Nothing in his post was anti-semitic. You're reaching, big time.

Wei Wu Wei
12-15-2010, 01:56 PM
Do you mean " Love and Truth" of the sort those on the left who advocate killing the unborn. No


and those two old and poor to afford medication, who have become an unaffordable burden to their Progressive ideas of society ? no who has ever said this?


Methinks that Jesus would condemn such people as demons and cast them out !Jesus chose the sick,poor and weak as his associates .He avoided those in power as being of this world and not of his coming kingdom !No, He would be of neither political party and condemn both as evil and of this world .

I do agree that He spoke against corrupt people in power, and I personally think he would not associate with either political party

Apache
12-15-2010, 02:06 PM
Most ridiculous post of the day.

Nothing in his post was anti-semitic. You're reaching, big time.

Not really, I took it the same way....

Articulate_Ape
12-15-2010, 02:24 PM
I will say that one thing is pretty certain; if Jesus was around today, he would be still be Jewish.

Apache
12-15-2010, 02:27 PM
I will say that one thing is pretty certain; if Jesus was around today, he would be still be Jewish.

:p

Wei Wu Wei
12-15-2010, 02:27 PM
what if he's here already and he's a Muslim??

whooaaaaa

http://i.imgur.com/DLDBx.gif

Apache
12-15-2010, 02:31 PM
what if he's here already and he's a Muslim??

whooaaaaa

http://i.imgur.com/DLDBx.gif

:rolleyes:

Please...just stop

PoliCon
12-15-2010, 02:33 PM
what if he's here already and he's a Muslim??

whooaaaaa

http://i.imgur.com/DLDBx.gif

The odds are much better that you'd pull your head out of your ass and Rock will shit gold bars. :rolleyes:

Articulate_Ape
12-15-2010, 02:41 PM
what if he's here already and he's a Muslim??

whooaaaaa



Thought miser.

PoliCon
12-15-2010, 02:43 PM
Most ridiculous post of the day.

Nothing in his post was anti-semitic. You're reaching, big time.

He's trying to draw a parallel and it's a bullshit one. I don't think he was being deliberately antisemitic - but rather casually antisemitic. Either way - it's still antisemitic.

Rockntractor
12-15-2010, 02:51 PM
Most ridiculous post of the day.

Nothing in his post was anti-semitic. You're reaching, big time.

Policon and Wilbur head to head, if we could harness their brain waves and capture the electricity you might be able to ignite a gas grill!

Wei Wu Wei
12-15-2010, 03:02 PM
Thought miser.

clever

Wei Wu Wei
12-15-2010, 03:02 PM
Policon and Wilbur head to head, if we could harness their brain waves and capture the electricity you might be able to ignite a gas grill!

and all that hot air produced is called Rockntractor

Molon Labe
12-15-2010, 03:45 PM
Hahah, what?!?!?

yeah...I didn't quite get that either.

hampshirebrit
12-15-2010, 04:02 PM
He's trying to draw a parallel and it's a bullshit one. I don't think he was being deliberately antisemitic - but rather casually antisemitic. Either way - it's still antisemitic.

What utter bollocks. Either it was anti-semitic or it was not. I don't think it was.

Just because it's Wilbur, don't try and palm this kind of shit off on me. And don't try this deliberate/casual rubbish to try to explain your knee-jerk response away. I don't buy it.

megimoo
12-15-2010, 04:14 PM
Policon and Wilbur head to head, if we could harness their brain waves and capture the electricity you might be able to ignite a gas grill!Or a very small brain fart ?

PoliCon
12-15-2010, 04:50 PM
Or a very small brain fart ?

Which is still more than you are capable of producing. :rolleyes:

noonwitch
12-15-2010, 04:50 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-goldberg-tells-bill-oreilly-jesus-probably-would-be-a-liberal-democrat-2010-12




Funny.

Personally, I believe if Jesus were alive today those in power woud try to execute him (again). Nothing draws more hate and antagonism and divisiveness than Love and Truth,


Probably. Both sides of the spectrum would be for killing him, too. Most people like to quote His sayings without really thinking through the implications for their daily lives.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
12-15-2010, 05:22 PM
Probably. Both sides of the spectrum would be for killing him, too. Most people like to quote His sayings without really thinking through the implications for their daily lives.

And that's why His message persists to this day...It's beautiful, strange yet genius.

Zathras
12-15-2010, 05:49 PM
Thus proving, once again, you know nothing of Christianity...:rolleyes:

Or pretty much anything else as well.

m00
12-15-2010, 09:40 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-goldberg-tells-bill-oreilly-jesus-probably-would-be-a-liberal-democrat-2010-12




Funny.

Personally, I believe if Jesus were alive today those in power woud try to execute him (again). Nothing draws more hate and antagonism and divisiveness than Love and Truth,

I'm pretty sure it would be a liberals, who love executing the innocent.

PoliCon
12-15-2010, 11:52 PM
I'm pretty sure it would be a liberals, who love executing the innocent.

there would be loads of conservatives who would be pissed off that He did not do things the way they want Him to do them so. . . . I mean the first time he sat down and broke bread with a bunch of homo's half the fundamentalists would lose their minds. . . .

Rockntractor
12-15-2010, 11:56 PM
there would be loads of conservatives who would be pissed off that He did not do things the way they want Him to do them so. . . . I mean the first time he sat down and broke bread with a bunch of homo's half the fundamentalists would lose their minds. . . .

Do you honestly think they didn't have homosexuals when he walked the earth? Why don't we have any record of your homo dinners then?

PoliCon
12-15-2010, 11:58 PM
Do you honestly think they didn't have homosexuals when he walked the earth? Why don't we have any record of your homo dinners then?

Thank you for proving my point.

Rockntractor
12-16-2010, 12:02 AM
Thank you for proving my point.

True, if anyone would know about homosexuality it would be you.

PoliCon
12-16-2010, 12:17 AM
True, if anyone would know about homosexuality it would be you.

Right because anyone who does not demonize teh gheys must be one. :rolleyes: The lifestyle may be wrong - but the people are just as worthy of God's love as anyone else - more so than some.

Rockntractor
12-16-2010, 12:20 AM
Right because anyone who does not demonize teh gheys must be one. :rolleyes: The lifestyle may be wrong - but the people are just as worthy of God's love as anyone else - more so than some.

Why don't you go for antisemitic while your at it too oh tolerant one.

m00
12-16-2010, 12:21 AM
Right because anyone who does not demonize teh gheys must be one. :rolleyes: The lifestyle may be wrong - but the people are just as worthy of God's love as anyone else - more so than some.

And as I recall, Jesus made a point of hanging out with those that a sinful society branded as sinners.

Rockntractor
12-16-2010, 12:41 AM
Thank you for proving my point.

This was not an answer to my question Policon. You stated that Jesus would gather "Homos" together to break bread in order to anger"fundamentalists" and I asked you why he didn't do this when he was here the first time.

PoliCon
12-16-2010, 12:42 AM
And as I recall, Jesus made a point of hanging out with those that a sinful society branded as sinners.

BINGO. The outcasts and pariahs - deemed unworthy by the religious establishment.

PoliCon
12-16-2010, 12:43 AM
This was not an answer to my question Policon. You stated that Jesus would gather "Homos" together to break bread in order to anger"fundamentalists" and I asked you why he didn't do this when he was here the first time.

No I said the fundamentalists would be pissed off when Jesus sat down and ate with homos - which he would do because Jesus made a habit out of pissing off the religious establishment by embracing those whom the establishment deemed unworthy and unacceptable.

Rockntractor
12-16-2010, 12:45 AM
No I said the fundamentalists would be pissed off when Jesus sat down and ate with homos - which he would do because Jesus made a habit out of pissing off the religious establishment by embracing those whom the establishment deemed unworthy and unacceptable.

Do you honestly think they didn't have homosexuals when he walked the earth? Why don't we have any record of your homo dinners then?

PoliCon
12-16-2010, 12:51 AM
Do you honestly think they didn't have homosexuals when he walked the earth? Why don't we have any record of your homo dinners then?

The Jews stoned and killed homosexuals. Remember? :rolleyes:

Besides - how do you know he didn't? There are LOADS of things that Jesus did that are not recorded in scripture - Scripture itself says that not all He did was recorded. I mean are we to assume Jesus never pooped because there is not one mention of him pitching a loaf anywhere in scripture?? :rolleyes:

Rockntractor
12-16-2010, 01:03 AM
The Jews stoned and killed homosexuals. Remember? :rolleyes:

Besides - how do you know he didn't? There are LOADS of things that Jesus did that are not recorded in scripture - Scripture itself says that not all He did was recorded. I mean are we to assume Jesus never pooped because there is not one mention of him pitching a loaf anywhere in scripture?? :rolleyes:

You dogmatically implied that were Jesus to walk the earth today he would make it a point to have lunch with homosexuals just to piss of fundamentalists, since you know the mind of Jesus in this detail I was sure you would know why he didn't do it before!

Articulate_Ape
12-16-2010, 01:08 AM
I would submit that Jesus would find this entire conversation rather pathetic and irrelevant. Frankly, I suspect he would refer to it as "the same old same old" and say "somebody kill me, please." I'm just sayin'.

PoliCon
12-16-2010, 01:08 AM
You dogmatically implied that were Jesus to walk the earth today he would make it a point to have lunch with homosexuals just to piss of fundamentalists, since you know the mind of Jesus in this detail I was sure you would know why he didn't do it before!

No I did not say he would do it JUST to piss of the fundamentalists - you may have read it that way - but that is NOT what I said. I said they would get pissed off when he did it. His motivations would be to show love to the unloved and compassion to those most in need of it.

Rockntractor
12-16-2010, 01:11 AM
No I did not say he would do it JUST to piss of the fundamentalists - you may have read it that way - but that is NOT what I said. I said they would get pissed off when he did it. His motivations would be to show love to the unloved and compassion to those most in need of it.

But in your mind a fundamentalist would not be worthy of Gods compassion and mercy but the homosexual would, why do yo choose to judge either group and pretend to know the mind of God?

PoliCon
12-16-2010, 01:15 AM
But in your mind a fundamentalist would not be worthy of Gods compassion and mercy but the homosexual would, why do yo choose to judge either group and pretend to know the mind of God?

1 - The message of Christ is for the lost and the sick remember?
2 - I never said the fundamentalists were unworthy.
3 - I'm not judging.

Rockntractor
12-16-2010, 01:18 AM
I would submit that Jesus would find this entire conversation rather pathetic and irrelevant. Frankly, I suspect he would refer to it as "the same old same old" and say "somebody kill me, please." I'm just sayin'.

I didn't point a finger at any group other than the poster who earlier in this thread called another member antisemitic and then now choose to single out fundamentalist. I don't know who Jesus would choose to eat with, It could be the pope or the head of the Mormon church, it might be a black panther, or southern Baptist, it could be Obama for all I know. I don't know who is going to hell and who isn't, I have no Idea whether hell is eternal or temporal nor do I care, but there is one thing I do know, I don't like it when people think they own God and know how he will react to every situation.

Articulate_Ape
12-16-2010, 01:28 AM
I didn't point a finger at any group other than the poster who earlier in this thread called another member antisemitic and then now choose to single out fundamentalist. I don't know who Jesus would choose to eat with, It could be the pope or the head of the Mormon church, it might be a black panther, or southern Baptist, it could be Obama for all I know. I don't know who is going to hell and who isn't, I have no Idea whether hell is eternal or temporal nor do I care, but there is one thing I do know, I don't like it when people think they own God and know how he will react to every situation.

This is like "What Would Jesus Do?" the movie, in 3D and sense-around.

Hyperbole abounds when there is no baseline in reality. Poli reacted in his way, Hamp in his, you in yours, everyone. It doesn't matter.

I agree with you with regard to the daft "certainties" that anyone might cling to, but oddly enough, we all do so to some degree, no?

I guess I am just saying that I doubt that the Jesus I have read about would not be very keen on anyone fighting about what he would do. I could be wrong; after all miracles can happen.

hampshirebrit
12-16-2010, 08:19 AM
I agree with you with regard to the daft "certainties" that anyone might cling to, but oddly enough, we all do so to some degree, no?
No :D

noonwitch
12-16-2010, 09:10 AM
But in your mind a fundamentalist would not be worthy of Gods compassion and mercy but the homosexual would, why do yo choose to judge either group and pretend to know the mind of God?



I think that God's compassion and mercy are for all, including fundamentalists and homosexuals. I'm pretty sure that is what Policon is saying. His point was that the hatred and fear expressed by many fundamentalists toward gays are things that Jesus would oppose.

You could make the same argument, substituting muslims for gays. The point that Jesus made in his teachings was that He came for all people, including and especially those who the rest of society cast out.

PoliCon
12-16-2010, 11:22 AM
This is like "What Would Jesus Do?" the movie, in 3D and sense-around.

Hyperbole abounds when there is no baseline in reality. Poli reacted in his way, Hamp in his, you in yours, everyone. It doesn't matter.

I agree with you with regard to the daft "certainties" that anyone might cling to, but oddly enough, we all do so to some degree, no?

I guess I am just saying that I doubt that the Jesus I have read about would not be very keen on anyone fighting about what he would do. I could be wrong; after all miracles can happen.

Point of order - I'm not fighting. :cool:

PoliCon
12-16-2010, 11:28 AM
I think that God's compassion and mercy are for all, including fundamentalists and homosexuals. I'm pretty sure that is what Policon is saying. His point was that the hatred and fear expressed by many fundamentalists toward gays are things that Jesus would oppose.

You could make the same argument, substituting muslims for gays. The point that Jesus made in his teachings was that He came for all people, including and especially those who the rest of society cast out.

NO NO NO!! Jesus only came for the beautiful and the straight! ;)

Articulate_Ape
12-16-2010, 12:10 PM
No :D


You seem awfully sure of that. :p

lacarnut
12-16-2010, 01:12 PM
I think that God's compassion and mercy are for all, including fundamentalists and homosexuals. I'm pretty sure that is what Policon is saying. His point was that the hatred and fear expressed by many fundamentalists toward gays are things that Jesus would oppose.

You could make the same argument, substituting muslims for gays. The point that Jesus made in his teachings was that He came for all people, including and especially those who the rest of society cast out.

Possible but not necessarily true. God compassion and mercy goes so far. Sinners which include homosexuals that do not repent and change their ways would be cast out. At least that is my reading of the scriptures.

PoliCon
12-16-2010, 02:22 PM
Possible but not necessarily true. God compassion and mercy goes so far. Sinners which include homosexuals that do not repent and change their ways would be cast out. At least that is my reading of the scriptures.

So lets suppose that George Takei has a born again experience and accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and savior but as we all know - he's very gay so . . . are you saying that he would be cast out and barred from heaven?

PoliCon
12-16-2010, 02:23 PM
It's sad to me up that people can get so hung up on sex that they think God is equally as hung up on it as well. :(

Wei Wu Wei
12-16-2010, 03:46 PM
It's sad to me up that people can get so hung up on sex that they think God is equally as hung up on it as well. :(

I agree.

Rockntractor
12-16-2010, 03:54 PM
I agree.


Thank you for proving my point.
Fascinating!

noonwitch
12-16-2010, 03:56 PM
Possible but not necessarily true. God compassion and mercy goes so far. Sinners which include homosexuals that do not repent and change their ways would be cast out. At least that is my reading of the scriptures.



I didn't know there were exceptions to the commandment "Love thy neighbor as thyself" for gays. If God casts out sinners who don't change their ways, then that's up to Him. I was told to love people unconditionally.

Rockntractor
12-16-2010, 04:05 PM
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New International Version, ©2010)

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Wei Wu Wei
12-16-2010, 04:10 PM
Fascinating!

I also don't think that Jesus would have a preference for political parties or that he would refuse to speak with LIEberals or DEMONcraps!

this democrat-republican liberal-conservative nonsense is just grade-school cliques for grown-ups.

Wei Wu Wei
12-16-2010, 04:12 PM
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New International Version, ©2010)

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Matthew 19:23-24 (New International Version, ©2010)

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”




Mark 10:24-25 (New International Version, ©2010)

24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is[a] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”



Luke 18:24-25 (New International Version, ©2010)

24 Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Rockntractor
12-16-2010, 04:22 PM
Matthew 19:23-24 (New International Version, ©2010)

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”




Mark 10:24-25 (New International Version, ©2010)

24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is[a] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”



Luke 18:24-25 (New International Version, ©2010)

24 Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

I didn't write the book, you will have to take it up with the author. My opinion on the subject means nothing because I have no power to damn or save, we will all face God alone.

Articulate_Ape
12-16-2010, 04:29 PM
Matthew 19:23-24 (New International Version, ©2010)

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”




Mark 10:24-25 (New International Version, ©2010)

24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is[a] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”



Luke 18:24-25 (New International Version, ©2010)

24 Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”



WWW, the "eye of a needle" Jesus was referring to was a secondary gate to a walled city that was either very narrow or had a low lintel. This particular gate was usually left open at night with one or two sentries. It's purpose was to allow entry while obviating the risk of an army passing through it. The sentries required any who entered to relinquish their weapons and the design of the gate was such that a laden camel would have to have its burden/cargo removed in order to pass through. The camel would then be reloaded with the goods once inside.

In other words, Jesus was simply saying, 'Don't get too attached to stuff because you can't take it with you.'

Context matters.

noonwitch
12-16-2010, 04:33 PM
I didn't write the book, you will have to take it up with the author. My opinion on the subject means nothing because I have no power to dam or save, we will all face God alone.


We all have the power to dam. All you need is a river or creek, and some wood or stones.

Rockntractor
12-16-2010, 04:34 PM
We all have the power to dam. All you need is a river or creek, and some wood or stones.

Oh yeah good point, even beavers can do it!:D

lacarnut
12-16-2010, 05:42 PM
I didn't know there were exceptions to the commandment "Love thy neighbor as thyself" for gays. If God casts out sinners who don't change their ways, then that's up to Him. I was told to love people unconditionally.

You need to learn how to read. The title of the thread starts off "If Jesus was alive today." So, you are saying that Jesus would not cast out sinners including gays that did not change their ways. News to me, cause that is exactly what he did when he was on earth. God loves everyone but if they do not repent hell and brimstone is coming their way.

Articulate_Ape
12-16-2010, 06:17 PM
So, you are saying that Jesus would not cast out sinners including gays that did not change their ways. News to me, cause that is exactly what he did when he was on earth.

Um..huh? I must have missed that part. Care to share what book, chapter, and verse supports that assertion?

NJCardFan
12-16-2010, 07:34 PM
The only reference to gays in the Bible was the act of homosexuality(Leviticus 18:22-You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.) However, God isn't too keen on certain heterosexual matters as well.

wilbur
12-16-2010, 07:40 PM
You need to learn how to read. The title of the thread starts off "If Jesus was alive today." So, you are saying that Jesus would not cast out sinners including gays that did not change their ways. News to me, cause that is exactly what he did when he was on earth. God loves everyone but if they do not repent hell and brimstone is coming their way.

That seems to depend on the sinner, doesn't it? He likes to cast the money changers out of the temple, but elsewhere he likes to save the prostitutes. Maybe he'd like to party with the gay dudes.

lacarnut
12-16-2010, 07:59 PM
. Wilbur would like to party with the gay dudes.

Fixed

Articulate_Ape
12-16-2010, 08:00 PM
Wilbur, you are a world class jackass, ya know that?

MrsSmith
12-16-2010, 11:09 PM
Not to rain on this parade, but you all do realize that Jesus is very much alive today, right?

And He is still saying exactly what He said 2000 years ago...that was the whole point to getting the disciples to write it down.

Would He be partying with the gays? Certainly...if they'd repented of their sins and decided to "go and sin no more." He didn't "hang" with "the establishment" at the time not because the sinners were more fun...but because those that repent are the ones He seeks.

Rockntractor
12-16-2010, 11:12 PM
Not to rain on this parade, but you all do realize that Jesus is very much alive today, right?

And He is still saying exactly what He said 2000 years ago...that was the whole point to getting the disciples to write it down.

Would He be partying with the gays? Certainly...if they'd repented of their sins and decided to "go and sin no more." He didn't "hang" with "the establishment" at the time not because the sinners were more fun...but because those that repent are the ones He seeks.

That's pretty much the way I read it.

Tecate
12-16-2010, 11:41 PM
If Judas were alive today, do you think he would still be long on silver? :D

malloc
12-17-2010, 12:23 AM
Maybe he'd like to party with the gay dudes.

I'm going to go long here and say that it takes more than 2,000 years for one's definition of "party" to go from breaking bread and toasting wine with the disciples to doing peppermint shots and discoing to "Dancing Queen" under the flashing lights.

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 12:40 AM
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New International Version, ©2010)

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

I love how you focus on the one term there and ignore how drunkards, adulterers, greedy people, people who put other things before God in their lives (idolaters), thieves, slanderers, swindlers . . . I also like how the context of the passage is so often ignored - is he saying people who have sins in their lives cannot enter into heaven or is he saying if you're washed and saved - you are no longer a sinner but justified by faith in Christ?

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 12:41 AM
Context matters.EXACTLY!

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 12:42 AM
The only reference to gays in the Bible was the act of homosexuality(Leviticus 18:22-You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.) However, God isn't too keen on certain heterosexual matters as well.

To whom was the book of Leviticus addressed? Context matters.

Sonnabend
12-17-2010, 04:09 AM
If Jesus was alive today, he would probably be busy kicking your ass for being an idiot

MrsSmith
12-17-2010, 07:49 AM
That seems to depend on the sinner, doesn't it? He likes to cast the money changers out of the temple, but elsewhere he likes to save the prostitutes. Maybe he'd like to party with the gay dudes.

Actually, it does depend on the sinner. Those that see their own sin and repent...or those that do not. Believe it or not, there are a lot of people around that really think they "aren't that bad," and that God has no right to judge them. Weird, huh? :D:D

Rockntractor
12-17-2010, 08:21 AM
I love how you focus on the one term there and ignore how drunkards, adulterers, greedy people, people who put other things before God in their lives (idolaters), thieves, slanderers, swindlers . . . I also like how the context of the passage is so often ignored - is he saying people who have sins in their lives cannot enter into heaven or is he saying if you're washed and saved - you are no longer a sinner but justified by faith in Christ?
It is only ignored in your mind, like I said we will each answer for ourselves.
Luke 17:2
New International Version (©1984)
It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

noonwitch
12-17-2010, 08:57 AM
You need to learn how to read. The title of the thread starts off "If Jesus was alive today." So, you are saying that Jesus would not cast out sinners including gays that did not change their ways. News to me, cause that is exactly what he did when he was on earth. God loves everyone but if they do not repent hell and brimstone is coming their way.


If God has a problem with gays, then that's His problem. It's certainly not mine. I'll stick with "Judge not, lest ye be judged".

Christians are called to love the "unlovable" and the cast out. We are not supposed to be the ones doing the casting out, however.

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 11:16 AM
It is only ignored in your mind, like I said we will each answer for ourselves.
Luke 17:2
New International Version (©1984)
It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

And who are you accusing of corrupting youth here? Me? Teh gheys? Both? :rolleyes:

megimoo
12-17-2010, 11:35 AM
If God has a problem with gays, then that's His problem. It's certainly not mine. I'll stick with "Judge not, lest ye be judged".

Christians are called to love the "unlovable" and the cast out. We are not supposed to be the ones doing the casting out, however.Are you advocating loving those GOD has cast out as sinners because of their evil works ?Be very careful using GODs own words against him if you plan on seeing him in his kingdom in the next life !

MrsSmith
12-17-2010, 12:20 PM
If God has a problem with gays, then that's His problem. It's certainly not mine. I'll stick with "Judge not, lest ye be judged".

Christians are called to love the "unlovable" and the cast out. We are not supposed to be the ones doing the casting out, however.

Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Now, who said that??

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 12:31 PM
Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Now, who said that??

And it's funny - as often as people in the Scriptures find themselves in sexually questionable situations - it's never for the sex that they find themselves condemned. David didn't get in trouble for boiking Bathsheba - he was busted for having her husband killed. The woman taken in adultery was not condemned for her sexual exploits but rather for breaking her marriage vows.

MrsSmith
12-17-2010, 12:38 PM
And it's funny - as often as people in the Scriptures find themselves in sexually questionable situations - it's never for the sex that they find themselves condemned. David didn't get in trouble for boiking Bathsheba - he was busted for having her husband killed. The woman taken in adultery was not condemned for her sexual exploits but rather for breaking her marriage vows.Oh, yeah...the sex had nothing to do with it. :rolleyes:


"Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers"

Nope, nothing about sex in there. :rolleyes:

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 12:40 PM
Oh, yeah...the sex had nothing to do with it. :rolleyes:


"Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers"

Nope, nothing about sex in there. :rolleyes:

Go back up the thread - already dealt with that passage in context.

Can you cite one example from scriptures where someone was expressly condemned for sex? I for one cannot think of a single example.

MrsSmith
12-17-2010, 12:56 PM
Go back up the thread - already dealt with that passage in context.

Can you cite one example from scriptures where someone was expressly condemned for sex? I for one cannot think of a single example.
DUh, you yourself gave 2 examples. Do you seriously think the sex had nothing to do with David or the woman in adultery? :rolleyes::rolleyes:


Dealt with it?


I love how you focus on the one term there and ignore how drunkards, adulterers, greedy people, people who put other things before God in their lives (idolaters), thieves, slanderers, swindlers . . . I also like how the context of the passage is so often ignored - is he saying people who have sins in their lives cannot enter into heaven or is he saying if you're washed and saved - you are no longer a sinner but justified by faith in Christ?

How, by admitting that sex outside marriage is just as bad a sin as idolatry, theft, etc.? OK....

NJCardFan
12-17-2010, 01:04 PM
To whom was the book of Leviticus addressed? Context matters.

The point is it's the act and not the feeling with the exception of looking at someone with lust in your heart.

Articulate_Ape
12-17-2010, 01:09 PM
How, by admitting that sex outside marriage is just as bad a sin as idolatry, theft, etc.? OK....

Personally, I find it a little mystifying that God went to so much trouble to get Lot and his family out of Sodom before turning it into a smoldering crater, but then then gave that same Lot and his daughters a pass for having sex outside of marriage, and incestuous sex at that. Seems that God is rather picky about who he smites and for what he smites them for.

NJCardFan
12-17-2010, 01:11 PM
Personally, I find it a little mystifying that God went to so much trouble to get Lot and his family out of Sodom before turning it into a smoldering crater, but then then gave that same Lot and his daughters a pass for having sex outside of marriage, and incestuous sex at that. Seems that God is rather picky about who he smites and for what he smites them for.

Actually, the daughters took advantage of a sleeping Lot. Lot was not complicit so the problem here is with his jump off daughters.

Articulate_Ape
12-17-2010, 01:17 PM
Actually, the daughters took advantage of a sleeping Lot. Lot was not complicit so the problem here is with his jump off daughters.

Fair enough, but then why didn't they get turned into pillars of salt or lightning skid marks?

Also, wasn't Lot at all curious how the hell his daughters came to be with child?

Apache
12-17-2010, 01:38 PM
Matthew 19:23-24 (New International Version, ©2010)

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”




Mark 10:24-25 (New International Version, ©2010)

24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is[a] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”



Luke 18:24-25 (New International Version, ©2010)

24 Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

You are an idiot! Nice way to take things out of context...

LOSER

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 01:41 PM
DUh, you yourself gave 2 examples. Do you seriously think the sex had nothing to do with David or the woman in adultery? :rolleyes::rolleyes: I'm going with what scripture says - and scripture says that David was condemned for having Uriah killed not for diddling Bathsheba.


2 Sam 12: 7Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’ He was condemned by the Lord for having Uriah killed and taking his wife - not for the sex but for the violence and covenant breaking.

As for the woman in adultery - remember that he did not condemn her - the CHURCH condemned her and he said to her - Go and sin no more.



Dealt with it?Yup. It's already been covered in our discussion. If you go back you will see that the topic has already been dealt with.




How, by admitting that sex outside marriage is just as bad a sin as idolatry, theft, etc.? OK.... All sins are equal in that they all separate us from God - but anyone who has done any study of theology knows that the Jews did not view all sins equally - and neither did the early church - and neither should we. While all sins have the same eternal penalty of death - they do very in severity in that some we commit willfully, some unintentionally, and some we do not even know to be sins. SO - What is the CONTEXT of that passage? As was already stated the context is that Paul is saying that we are not sinners in heaven. We are all equally washed and saved.

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 01:43 PM
Personally, I find it a little mystifying that God went to so much trouble to get Lot and his family out of Sodom before turning it into a smoldering crater, but then then gave that same Lot and his daughters a pass for having sex outside of marriage, and incestuous sex at that. Seems that God is rather picky about who he smites and for what he smites them for.

Sodom was not smote for sex though.

Articulate_Ape
12-17-2010, 01:52 PM
Sodom was not smote for sex though.

Irrelevant. The point is that it was smitten and God went to a whole lot of trouble to get Lot & Co. out of Dodge before nuking the place. He then looked the other way when Lot's daughters did the horizontal bop with their pop. And Lot just says nothing when his two unwed daughters bulk up and calve? Did he just write it off to immaculate conception? It's pretty weird.

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 01:55 PM
Irrelevant. The point is that it was smitten and God went to a whole lot of trouble to get Lot & Co. out of Dodge before nuking the place. He then looked the other way when Lot's daughters did the horizontal bop with their pop. And Lot just says nothing when his two unwed daughters bulk up and calve? Did he just write it off to immaculate conception? It's pretty weird.

because God is not as hung up about sex as some Christians are. I blame Augustine myself.

Articulate_Ape
12-17-2010, 02:07 PM
because God is not as hung up about sex as some Christians are. I blame Augustine myself.

C'mon, Augustine died like almost 2000 years ago. There's no way you could have met him.

MrsSmith
12-17-2010, 02:38 PM
I'm going with what scripture says - and scripture says that David was condemned for having Uriah killed not for diddling Bathsheba.

He was condemned by the Lord for having Uriah killed and taking his wife - not for the sex but for the violence and covenant breaking.

As for the woman in adultery - remember that he did not condemn her - the CHURCH condemned her and he said to her - Go and sin no more.
Yup. It's already been covered in our discussion. If you go back you will see that the topic has already been dealt with.

All sins are equal in that they all separate us from God - but anyone who has done any study of theology knows that the Jews did not view all sins equally - and neither did the early church - and neither should we. While all sins have the same eternal penalty of death - they do very in severity in that some we commit willfully, some unintentionally, and some we do not even know to be sins. SO - What is the CONTEXT of that passage? As was already stated the context is that Paul is saying that we are not sinners in heaven. We are all equally washed and saved.
In heaven, yes. On earth, however, sex outside marriage is just as sinful as theft, lying, sloth, gluttony, etc. God's view of sin is that He hates it all, regardless of what the Jews or early church wanted to give people "a pass" on.

It is equally dishonest to consider it as either more or less sinful than any other sin. Those differences in "weight" are man-made.

MrsSmith
12-17-2010, 02:40 PM
Irrelevant. The point is that it was smitten and God went to a whole lot of trouble to get Lot & Co. out of Dodge before nuking the place. He then looked the other way when Lot's daughters did the horizontal bop with their pop. And Lot just says nothing when his two unwed daughters bulk up and calve? Did he just write it off to immaculate conception? It's pretty weird.

Perhaps you've missed the fact that Lot's daughters grew up in a very sexually permissive environment. God knew what would happen, and He knew both why...and when those girls would learn their error and repent of it.

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 02:50 PM
C'mon, Augustine died like almost 2000 years ago. There's no way you could have met him.

huh? I'm not saying I met him. :p

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 02:53 PM
In heaven, yes. On earth, however, sex outside marriage is just as sinful as theft, lying, sloth, gluttony, etc. God's view of sin is that He hates it all, regardless of what the Jews or early church wanted to give people "a pass" on.

It is equally dishonest to consider it as either more or less sinful than any other sin. Those differences in "weight" are man-made.

So what you're saying is that there is no difference in severity between the murders of Charles Manson and someone picking up some food item on display in a store and eating it thinking it was a free sample - that an intentional sin of murder is no more 'weighty' than the accidental sin of theft? :confused:

Articulate_Ape
12-17-2010, 03:28 PM
Perhaps you've missed the fact that Lot's daughters grew up in a very sexually permissive environment.

Not at all. This only enhances the mystery of why he didn't smite them along with the other young people of Sodom that grew up exposed to that environment. UNLESS, as Poli suggests, the Sodomite's sexual proclivities were not the primary motive for God smiting that city.



God knew what would happen, and He knew both why...and when those girls would learn their error and repent of it.

I think that you should preface such statements with "I believe"; unless, of course, you can substantiate them within the scriptures which presumably are the basis of your doctrine. I'm just sayin'.

Molon Labe
12-17-2010, 03:29 PM
In heaven, yes. On earth, however, sex outside marriage is just as sinful as theft, lying, sloth, gluttony, etc. God's view of sin is that He hates it all, regardless of what the Jews or early church wanted to give people "a pass" on.

It is equally dishonest to consider it as either more or less sinful than any other sin. Those differences in "weight" are man-made.

+1

Everything leads back to the issue of pride.

Wish FG were here to hear his thoughts on this.

txradioguy
12-17-2010, 04:25 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-goldberg-tells-bill-oreilly-jesus-probably-would-be-a-liberal-democrat-2010-12




Funny.

Personally, I believe if Jesus were alive today those in power woud try to execute him (again). Nothing draws more hate and antagonism and divisiveness than Love and Truth,

Sadly your correct. The godless left in this country would be more than happy to nail Him to the cross...again.

noonwitch
12-17-2010, 04:31 PM
Not at all. This only enhances the mystery of why he didn't smite them along with the other young people of Sodom that grew up exposed to that environment. UNLESS, as Poli suggests, the Sodomite's sexual proclivities were not the primary motive for God smiting that city.



The men of Sodom were not just practicing homosexuality, they wanted to rape Lot's visitors, who happened to be angels. One could make the case that God judged Sodom for their violation of the ancient rule of hospitality, or of rape, or of both.

Articulate_Ape
12-17-2010, 04:35 PM
The men of Sodom were not just practicing homosexuality, they wanted to rape Lot's visitors, who happened to be angels. One could make the case that God judged Sodom for their violation of the ancient rule of hospitality, or of rape, or of both.

Yeah, angel rape has been at the top of my "Things to NOT do" list for as long as I can remember.

txradioguy
12-17-2010, 04:40 PM
You are an idiot! Nice way to take things out of context...

LOSER

What do you expect from people who look at The New Testament and believe that Jesus was a Liberal?

djones520
12-17-2010, 04:41 PM
Yeah, angel rape has been at the top of my "Things to NOT do" list for as long as I can remember.

Wimp.

Articulate_Ape
12-17-2010, 05:00 PM
Wimp.

Hey, I adhere to that old adage: Better safe than covered in burning sulfur while being flayed into flying bits of flaming flesh and bone fragments by jagged chunks of cooling lava that are raining down on you at terminal velocity.

Know what I'm sayin'?

djones520
12-17-2010, 05:09 PM
Hey, I adhere to that old adage: Better safe than covered in burning sulfur while being flayed into flying bits of flaming flesh and bone fragments by jagged chunks of cooling lava that are raining down on you at terminal velocity.

Know what I'm sayin'?

I'm just a godless heathen, that's how I roll, ya know?

MrsSmith
12-17-2010, 05:22 PM
Not at all. This only enhances the mystery of why he didn't smite them along with the other young people of Sodom that grew up exposed to that environment. UNLESS, as Poli suggests, the Sodomite's sexual proclivities were not the primary motive for God smiting that city.




I think that you should preface such statements with "I believe"; unless, of course, you can substantiate them within the scriptures which presumably are the basis of your doctrine. I'm just sayin'.

Are you seriously trying to argue that God didn't know what those girls would do, why they would do it, and when they would repent of it. Seriously?

As for the why, Abraham asked for his family to be spared, and God answered his prayer.

And yeah, scripture makes God's omniscience pretty plain. :rolleyes:

Articulate_Ape
12-17-2010, 06:01 PM
Are you seriously trying to argue that God didn't know what those girls would do, why they would do it, and when they would repent of it. Seriously?

As for the why, Abraham asked for his family to be spared, and God answered his prayer.

And yeah, scripture makes God's omniscience pretty plain. :rolleyes:

So are you saying that God knew that the Sodomites were going to do what they did and that God just sat back and waited for them to do it then lowered the boom on them? If so, they sure got a bad deal. You have to keep in mind that God had not given Moses the Law yet and there was no Levitical Law, so no one could have known what the program was with any specificity.

I'd say that makes for a pretty mischievous God if your view is correct. I somehow think that the answer is not quite that simple, but to each their own I say.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
12-17-2010, 06:22 PM
If Jesus was alive, he'd be utterly depressed realizing his message really didn't solve any of the ills that he wanted it to solve. He'd realize people are just as shitty to each other now as they were in his day, and that would sadden him greatly.

Rockntractor
12-17-2010, 06:38 PM
If Jesus was alive, he'd be utterly depressed realizing his message really didn't solve any of the ills that he wanted it to solve. He'd realize people are just as shitty to each other now as they were in his day, and that would sadden him greatly.

Once again like Mrs Smith said, Jesus is alive.

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 06:45 PM
If Jesus was alive, he'd be utterly depressed realizing his message really didn't solve any of the ills that he wanted it to solve. He'd realize people are just as shitty to each other now as they were in his day, and that would sadden him greatly.

You honestly think His message was to solve ills in this world?

(Mat 10:34-35 - Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. I came to divide a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a bride against her mother-in-law. )

CaughtintheMiddle1990
12-17-2010, 06:54 PM
You honestly think His message was to solve ills in this world?

(Mat 10:34-35 - Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. I came to divide a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a bride against her mother-in-law. )

If he didn't come to solve problems, what was the point?

MrsSmith
12-17-2010, 07:36 PM
If Jesus was alive, he'd be utterly depressed realizing his message really didn't solve any of the ills that he wanted it to solve. He'd realize people are just as shitty to each other now as they were in his day, and that would sadden him greatly.

And how, exactly, do you know this? Were you alive 2000 years ago to see how people treated each other? And when was the last time you saw the government nail a guy to a chunk of wood to execute him? How many democracies existed 2000 years ago? How many hospitals...for ALL people. How many schools...for ALL kids. How many diseases have been cured, how many ways for the disabled to be able to work. Maybe a lot of His message has done good.

(Not to mention that, as God, Jesus knows what will happen in the future, so isn't surprised or upset the way humans can be.)

MrsSmith
12-17-2010, 07:41 PM
So are you saying that God knew that the Sodomites were going to do what they did and that God just sat back and waited for them to do it then lowered the boom on them? If so, they sure got a bad deal. You have to keep in mind that God had not given Moses the Law yet and there was no Levitical Law, so no one could have known what the program was with any specificity.

I'd say that makes for a pretty mischievous God if your view is correct. I somehow think that the answer is not quite that simple, but to each their own I say.
I see you don't really appreciate free will. I suppose you'd prefer being a robot? Perhaps you'd prefer it if some other being had control of the date of your death? And your eternity? Is there someone else that would do a better job? Just because one Being in the universe understands your every thought, every rationale, every reason you have for every action, I suppose it doesn't follow that He is the only One with the ability to judge. Right? Perhaps your perception is a little, um, simple. :rolleyes:

So, yes, the same God that has always had total and complete understanding of every single human being did allow the Sodomites their free will, and did tell them when it was time to come home.

Articulate_Ape
12-17-2010, 08:00 PM
I see you don't really appreciate free will. I suppose you'd prefer being a robot? Perhaps you'd prefer it if some other being had control of the date of your death? And your eternity? Is there someone else that would do a better job? Just because one Being in the universe understands your every thought, every rationale, every reason you have for every action, I suppose it doesn't follow that He is the only One with the ability to judge. Right? Perhaps your perception is a little, um, simple. :rolleyes:

So, yes, the same God that has always had total and complete understanding of every single human being did allow the Sodomites their free will, and did tell them when it was time to come home.

With all do respect, MrsSmith. Beings created by a God that knows exactly what they are going to do from beginning to the end, regardless of any perception of free will, are, in fact, the real automatons in such an equation. I believe that you choose to project human attributes to God (which people of faith have always done) and that is why conundrums arise when examining those things that God has wrought.

I cannot convince you because of your faith, and I respect that. You will not convince me because of my reason, and I hope you will understand that even if you do not respect it. I believe in a God that is way more complex than a cosmic chess player who can think out infinite forward moves in the game.

wilbur
12-17-2010, 08:45 PM
I see you don't really appreciate free will. I suppose you'd prefer being a robot? Perhaps you'd prefer it if some other being had control of the date of your death? And your eternity? Is there someone else that would do a better job? Just because one Being in the universe understands your every thought, every rationale, every reason you have for every action, I suppose it doesn't follow that He is the only One with the ability to judge. Right? Perhaps your perception is a little, um, simple. :rolleyes:

So, yes, the same God that has always had total and complete understanding of every single human being did allow the Sodomites their free will, and did tell them when it was time to come home.

Let me ask...

If presented with the following choices:

1) Suffer horrendous, unimaginable torment for all eternity.
2) Live eternally blissful, as the most perfect being you can possibly be.

Could you consider picking option #1 a rational choice of a sound mind?

megimoo
12-17-2010, 08:54 PM
Let me ask...

If presented with the following choices:

1) Suffer horrendous, unimaginable torment for all eternity.
2) Live eternally blissful, as the most perfect being you can possibly be.

Could you consider picking option #1 a rational choice of a sound mind?The ultimate question is do you believe that ?

hampshirebrit
12-17-2010, 09:12 PM
Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. I came to divide a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a bride against her mother-in-law. )

He sounds like a real charmer. Someone anyone in their right mind should do their best to avoid.

Is there anyone alive today who would NOT want to take extreme avoidance measures against a person who claims these things as his stated aims?

We quite rightly lock up people nowadays who ideate in this way.

djones520
12-17-2010, 09:25 PM
He sounds like a real charmer. Someone anyone in their right mind should do their best to avoid.

Is there anyone alive today who would NOT want to take extreme avoidance measures against a person who claims these things as his stated aims?

We quite rightly lock up people nowadays who ideate in this way.

When taken out of context, as Poli posted that, yes.

Here is the full thing.


10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

hampshirebrit
12-17-2010, 09:31 PM
Here is the full thing.

For me, it does not improve at all in intent or expression for being so expanded. Perhaps I am missing something, but the punitive, threatening nature of the message is no less clear in the expanded version than in the shorter.

I still do not wish to meet the person claimed to be making such statements. I can see no benefit to me in doing so.

djones520
12-17-2010, 09:34 PM
For me, it does not improve at all in intent or expression. Perhaps I am missing something, but the punitive, threatening nature of the message is no less clear in the expanded version.

Well, it's intended for those who put things before God. I could go off on a tangent about how that sounds like another religion that people like to villify, but I won't.

The thing about that Chapter of Matthews, that makes it interesting that Poli would reference about Jesus not coming to earth to better man is this.


10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.


Jesus commands his apostles to go out and spread the gifts that they have been given to better mankind. From the very same chapter, of the same book that he referenced against the idea.

Rockntractor
12-17-2010, 09:50 PM
Watching two atheists debate religion is kind of like watching to eunuchs discussing sex!:rolleyes:

hampshirebrit
12-17-2010, 09:57 PM
Watching two atheists debate religion is kind of like watching to eunuchs discussing sex!:rolleyes:

Who better than two atheists to debate religion? At least we make it interesting.

Let's face it, when you hear the pope saying "Jesus Lives", you figure that the pope is just doing his job again today.

megimoo
12-17-2010, 09:59 PM
The men of Sodom were not just practicing homosexuality, they wanted to rape Lot's visitors, who happened to be angels. One could make the case that God judged Sodom for their violation of the ancient rule of hospitality, or of rape, or of both.They weren't just angels !look at Andrei Rublev icon of the holy trinity and read the theology.

Rockntractor
12-17-2010, 10:01 PM
Who better than two atheists to debate religion? At least we make it interesting.

Let's face it, when you hear the pope saying "Jesus Lives", you figure that the pope is just doing his job again today.

Anyone debating religion is a futile pastime, that is why I seldom include myself. I contribute a couple of texts and people can read and draw their own conclusions.

hampshirebrit
12-17-2010, 10:08 PM
debating religion is a futile pastime

Far from it. It's not futile at all. It's a vital debate, one that will have to be held, like it or not.

It's transitioning from being a fun pastime, to becoming a very necessary requirement to our survival.

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 10:38 PM
When taken out of context, as Poli posted that, yes.

Here is the full thing.

Context gives why - but does not change the meaning of what I posted - the fact that Christ did not come to bring peace on earth. His message was one of individual forgiveness and reconciliation with God not of 'social justice' and utopia.

hampshirebrit
12-17-2010, 10:44 PM
Context gives why - but does not change the meaning of what I posted - the fact that Christ did not come to bring peace on earth. His message was one of individual forgiveness and reconciliation with God not of 'social justice' and utopia.

OK, I guess this is an example of where PoliCon knows better than Jesus, as so often seems to happen.

"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men" (Luke 2:14 (King James Version)).

Rockntractor
12-17-2010, 10:48 PM
OK, I guess this is an example of where PoliCon knows better than Jesus, as so often seems to happen.

"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men" (Luke 2:14 (King James Version)).

You have a better understanding then he, I know you don't believe or agree with the book but you do seem to have a logical and literal grasp of the book that Policon will never have.

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 11:14 PM
OK, I guess this is an example of where PoliCon knows better than Jesus, as so often seems to happen.

"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men" (Luke 2:14 (King James Version)).

Hamps - that was the message of the ANGELS announcing the coming of the Christ Child from and through whom we have redemption and forgiveness.

PoliCon
12-17-2010, 11:15 PM
You have a better understanding then he, I know you don't believe or agree with the book but you do seem to have a logical and literal grasp of the book that Policon will never have.

Pray for me brother that some day I might be as righteous as thou.

Rockntractor
12-17-2010, 11:18 PM
Pray for me brother that some day I might be as righteous as thou.

I could really care less.

Articulate_Ape
12-17-2010, 11:22 PM
I could really care less.

And therein lies the rub.

BTW: I think you mean "couldn't care less", unless you actually meant you could reduce your level of caring as opposed to having reached the limits of same. A minor detail to most, a major one to those who can speak their native tongue. ;)

Rockntractor
12-17-2010, 11:27 PM
And therein lies the rub.

At least I'm being honest about it.

Articulate_Ape
12-17-2010, 11:30 PM
At least I'm being honest about it.

I can't argue with that.

PoliCon
12-18-2010, 12:08 AM
I could really care less.

Obviously you do care a great deal or why else point out your apparent superiority in knowledge and belief?

Rockntractor
12-18-2010, 12:12 AM
Obviously you do care a great deal or why else point out your apparent superiority in knowledge and belief?

All I have done to anger you is to post Bible text, I didn't even try to explain to you what I thought they meant but this alone has angered you.

PoliCon
12-18-2010, 12:15 AM
All I have done to anger you is to post Bible text, I didn't even try to explain to you what I thought they meant but this alone has angered you.

anger me? :rolleyes: Thou does greatly over estimate thy powers to incite anger. :rolleyes:

Rockntractor
12-18-2010, 12:17 AM
anger me? :rolleyes: Thou does greatly over estimate thy powers to incite anger. :rolleyes:

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/358v1ms.gif

PoliCon
12-18-2010, 12:39 AM
If anything I'd say I was the one who incited anger. And all I had to do to accomplish this feat was to challenge rigid fundamentalist dogmatism.

Articulate_Ape
12-18-2010, 12:43 AM
feat :rolleyes:

m00
12-18-2010, 01:09 AM
In heaven, yes. On earth, however, sex outside marriage is just as sinful as theft, lying, sloth, gluttony, etc. God's view of sin is that He hates it all, regardless of what the Jews or early church wanted to give people "a pass" on.

I'm not sure why you are attributing the human emotion of hate to God...but maybe I just don't recall the passage. The only emotions I really remember God expressing were love, and disappointment (which is a kind of love). Now sure, God smites a lot of people that need smiting. And he tells us not to sin. But that's not the same thing has hating sin.

And I should point out the list of thing God tells us to do in the Old Testament is (as I recall, without looking it up) about 613. I also don't recall any weights given, that some sins were worse than others. God just says "don't do this" and who knows what will happen if you disobey one or some or which ones? Probably depends on the person, and the situation, and whether or not you are regretful.

Most of God's actions in the OT are pretty mysterious to me, to be perfectly honest. But hey, God is God and I'm pretty sure my cats don't understand wtf I do all day either.

Articulate_Ape
12-18-2010, 01:14 AM
But hey, God is God and I'm pretty sure my cats don't understand wtf I do all day either.

One of the more brilliant things I have ever read on the subject, M00. Truly brilliant.

m00
12-18-2010, 01:23 AM
One of the more brilliant things I have ever read on the subject, M00. Truly brilliant.

Thanks. :p I've actually given this a lot of thought. For example, I don't let my cats sit on the couch (unless put a towel down)... but they are allowed to sit on chairs. This might seem incredibly arbitrary to them, but my couch is leather while my chairs are completely disposable. But honestly, how could I possibly explain this? The best I can do is let them know they are breaking the rules and be consistent. I imagine God feels much the same way.

Likewise I'm on my computer right now, connected to the Internet, making a post. No idea what the cat thinks I'm doing, nor do I have any idea what the cat thinks I'm doing when I'm at work or reading a book.

This is also why I think the scriptures don't tell you a lot of "whys" just a lot of "don't dos." Because honestly, any explanation God would try and give would be like me explaining to my cats what the Internet is. How would I even begin? And I imagine the gulf between me and God is even larger than between me and my cats.

So follow the commandments, and stay off God's couch unless you want to get thrown outside.

djones520
12-18-2010, 06:44 AM
Thanks. :p I've actually given this a lot of thought. For example, I don't let my cats sit on the couch (unless put a towel down)... but they are allowed to sit on chairs. This might seem incredibly arbitrary to them, but my couch is leather while my chairs are completely disposable. But honestly, how could I possibly explain this? The best I can do is let them know they are breaking the rules and be consistent. I imagine God feels much the same way.

Likewise I'm on my computer right now, connected to the Internet, making a post. No idea what the cat thinks I'm doing, nor do I have any idea what the cat thinks I'm doing when I'm at work or reading a book.

This is also why I think the scriptures don't tell you a lot of "whys" just a lot of "don't dos." Because honestly, any explanation God would try and give would be like me explaining to my cats what the Internet is. How would I even begin? And I imagine the gulf between me and God is even larger than between me and my cats.

So follow the commandments, and stay off God's couch unless you want to get thrown outside.

I'm a benevolent god. My couch isn't made of leather. :p

wilbur
12-18-2010, 11:15 AM
I'm not sure why you are attributing the human emotion of hate to God...but maybe I just don't recall the passage. The only emotions I really remember God expressing were love, and disappointment (which is a kind of love). Now sure, God smites a lot of people that need smiting. And he tells us not to sin. But that's not the same thing has hating sin.

And I should point out the list of thing God tells us to do in the Old Testament is (as I recall, without looking it up) about 613. I also don't recall any weights given, that some sins were worse than others. God just says "don't do this" and who knows what will happen if you disobey one or some or which ones? Probably depends on the person, and the situation, and whether or not you are regretful.

Most of God's actions in the OT are pretty mysterious to me, to be perfectly honest. But hey, God is God and I'm pretty sure my cats don't understand wtf I do all day either.

"I am a jealous God" - Yahweh

wilbur
12-18-2010, 11:34 AM
Thanks. :p I've actually given this a lot of thought. For example, I don't let my cats sit on the couch (unless put a towel down)... but they are allowed to sit on chairs. This might seem incredibly arbitrary to them, but my couch is leather while my chairs are completely disposable. But honestly, how could I possibly explain this? The best I can do is let them know they are breaking the rules and be consistent. I imagine God feels much the same way.

Likewise I'm on my computer right now, connected to the Internet, making a post. No idea what the cat thinks I'm doing, nor do I have any idea what the cat thinks I'm doing when I'm at work or reading a book.

This is also why I think the scriptures don't tell you a lot of "whys" just a lot of "don't dos." Because honestly, any explanation God would try and give would be like me explaining to my cats what the Internet is. How would I even begin? And I imagine the gulf between me and God is even larger than between me and my cats.

So follow the commandments, and stay off God's couch unless you want to get thrown outside.

Let's pretend the cats could communicate their beliefs to one another. They could discuss your seemingly arbitrary rules about what they can and cannot sit on, and the possible reasons why those rules exist. They have intense debates, but they cannot come to agreement.

This is all of little consequence, till they find themselves in new situations which call for action. They do not have your explicit guidance, but they would like to do what you would have commanded them to do. They soon realize that they cannot infer the proper course of action, without knowing the essence of the principles behind your commands. To their horror, they realize that it *might* not even be possible for them to know, because your mind is so advanced compared to theirs.

But they also know that choosing the wrong course of action could incur your righteous wrath. Shit! They'll get thrown outside forever.

So even though they agree that they cannot really know your mind, they simply have to make their best guess. Their lives are at stake. The problem is, each guess is different. Given the stakes though, a choice has to be made. As they argue, each cat becomes more and more convinced that his position is the right one. It all erupts into a massive kitty Armageddon, and everything in your house is destroyed!

PoliCon
12-18-2010, 11:49 AM
"I am a jealous God" - Yahweh

You might like to know that the Hebrew term for 'jealous' in this case is a different term from the negative emotion of envious jealousy or the term for angry jealousy which exist in Hebrew. It's actually closer related to the term ZEALOUS than it is to the human emotion of jealousy.

MrsSmith
12-18-2010, 11:51 AM
I'm not sure why you are attributing the human emotion of hate to God...but maybe I just don't recall the passage. The only emotions I really remember God expressing were love, and disappointment (which is a kind of love). Now sure, God smites a lot of people that need smiting. And he tells us not to sin. But that's not the same thing has hating sin.

And I should point out the list of thing God tells us to do in the Old Testament is (as I recall, without looking it up) about 613. I also don't recall any weights given, that some sins were worse than others. God just says "don't do this" and who knows what will happen if you disobey one or some or which ones? Probably depends on the person, and the situation, and whether or not you are regretful.

Most of God's actions in the OT are pretty mysterious to me, to be perfectly honest. But hey, God is God and I'm pretty sure my cats don't understand wtf I do all day either.

These six doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Neither shalt thou set thee up [any] image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Nope, no emotions from God. :rolleyes: It's not possible to read the Bible without coming away knowing that our definition of God and His love is so shallow as to be ridiculous. All He does is for love of His people, but He expresses anger and hatred for mankind's sin and hardness of heart over and over...even as Christ.

MrsSmith
12-18-2010, 12:04 PM
Let's pretend the cats could communicate their beliefs to one another. They could discuss your seemingly arbitrary rules about what they can and cannot sit on, and the possible reasons why those rules exist. They have intense debates, but they cannot come to agreement.

This is all of little consequence, till they find themselves in new situations which call for action. They do not have your explicit guidance, but they would like to do what you would have commanded them to do. They soon realize that they cannot infer the proper course of action, without knowing the essence of the principles behind your commands. To their horror, they realize that it *might* not even be possible for them to know, because your mind is so advanced compared to theirs.

But they also know that choosing the wrong course of action could incur your righteous wrath. Shit! They'll get thrown outside forever.

So even though they agree that they cannot really know your mind, they simply have to make their best guess. Their lives are at stake. The problem is, each guess is different. Given the stakes though, a choice has to be made. As they argue, each cat becomes more and more convinced that his position is the right one. It all erupts into a massive kitty Armageddon, and everything in your house is destroyed!It's a good thing God is not a human. We can make mistakes without being thrown outside forever...all we have to do is accept the fact that we make mistakes and ask Him to forgive us.

He has also given us a wonderful guide book, so when we have questions or disagreements, we can refer to that manual. Those that honestly do so may disagree on minor points, but the main guidelines are pretty clear to any that actually study the whole manual. :):)

PoliCon
12-18-2010, 12:08 PM
These six doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Neither shalt thou set thee up [any] image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

The term for hate here is about calling someone or thing an enemy or foe which would be why in some places the same word is translated as ENEMY.


But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

He was also fond of the phrase GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN.


He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Now this is a very interesting term in the Greek. It has it's root in the term meaning "to desire" with the added layer of being angry towards. Of course in modern english wrath has a meaning of violent anger, however it used to mean only "divine retribution for sin."



Nope, no emotions from God. :rolleyes: Human emotions are pale and twisted variations on the "emotions" of God.



It's not possible to read the Bible without coming away knowing that our definition of God and His love is so shallow as to be ridiculous. Agreed. And it is even more amazing when you go back and look at the greek and the hebrew where there are multiple terms which are translated as the single english term love.

wilbur
12-18-2010, 12:25 PM
It's a good thing God is not a human. We can make mistakes without being thrown outside forever...all we have to do is accept the fact that we make mistakes and ask Him to forgive us.


But the cats have disagreed about this too, and each prefers their own answer.



He has also given us a wonderful guide book, so when we have questions or disagreements, we can refer to that manual. Those that honestly do so may disagree on minor points, but the main guidelines are pretty clear to any that actually study the whole manual. :):)

The cats also found different "guide books", and divided themselves into factions based on those guide books. Then even within those factions, more factions formed, based on interpretations of those guidebooks.

All this was simply fuel on the fire for kitty armageddon.

wilbur
12-18-2010, 12:29 PM
You might like to know that the Hebrew term for 'jealous' in this case is a different term from the negative emotion of envious jealousy or the term for angry jealousy which exist in Hebrew. It's actually closer related to the term ZEALOUS than it is to the human emotion of jealousy.

So they say... but the context in which it was used was regarding idolatry and the Israelites, which sure makes it seem a lot like the contemporary meaning of jealousy.

PoliCon
12-18-2010, 12:32 PM
So they say... but the context in which it was used was regarding idolatry and the Israelites, which sure makes it seem a lot like the contemporary meaning of jealousy.

Seem? to whom? You?

wilbur
12-18-2010, 12:42 PM
The biggest problem for the kitties was yet to come.

The kitties had gone through their lives giving thank-you meows and purrs for all the good things that came their way. They just knew their master was watching out for them, making good things happen for them, because he loved them.

But bad things happened too. Lots of them. To explain why these things might happen they conclude that they just cannot know the mind of their master. It is incomprehensible to them, but he must have a reason.

Then they realized... by claiming that they cannot know their master's mind, they have pulled the rug out from under *all* their alleged knowledge of master. They realize that they left themselves with no footing upon which to say *anything* about the motives of their master, good or bad.

For everything they have come to believe that their master loves in the world, they also see the opposite. He supposedly likes happy kitties who purr, but there are kitties who are sick and die. He supposedly likes kitties who know his truth, but he allows so many kitties to believe the wrong things.

So maybe he had a good motive for allowing so much of what he dislikes into the world. Maybe he had a good motive for allowing suffering. Maybe he had a good motive for allowing deception. If he has a good motive for allowing deception, then its possible that all the things you believe about him, are false. It might serve his purposes, for you to believe falsely. The poor kitties realize they cannot trust or claim anything about their master at all anymore, and fall into deep existential skepticism, and despair.

The kitties commit kitty suicide.

BadCat
12-18-2010, 12:44 PM
Discussing religion with Wiburrrrrr...

y'all might as well just set your genitals afire, it would be less painful.

MrsSmith
12-18-2010, 12:52 PM
But the cats have disagreed about this too, and each prefers their own answer.



The cats also found different "guide books", and divided themselves into factions based on those guide books. Then even within those factions, more factions formed, based on interpretations of those guidebooks.

All this was simply fuel on the fire for kitty armageddon.
The world is largely under the control of it's master, and that master has faked some books. Those that earnestly seek, though, do find the One God. And it must be recalled that only One Way differs from the pack...that Way in which God Himself reaches down to us.

MrsSmith
12-18-2010, 12:54 PM
The biggest problem for the kitties was yet to come.

The kitties had gone through their lives giving thank-you meows and purrs for all the good things that came their way. They just knew their master was watching out for them, making good things happen for them, because he loved them.

But bad things happened too. Lots of them. To explain why these things might happen they conclude that they just cannot know the mind of their master. It is incomprehensible to them, but he must have a reason.

Then they realized... by claiming that they cannot know their master's mind, they have pulled the rug out from under *all* their alleged knowledge of master. They realize that they left themselves with no footing upon which to say *anything* about the motives of their master, good or bad.

For everything they have come to believe that their master loves in the world, they also see the opposite. He supposedly likes happy kitties who purr, but there are kitties who are sick and die. He supposedly likes kitties who know his truth, but he allows so many kitties to believe the wrong things.

So maybe he had a good motive for allowing so much of what he dislikes into the world. Maybe he had a good motive for allowing suffering. Maybe he had a good motive for allowing deception. If he has a good motive for allowing deception, then its possible that all the things you believe about him, are false. It might serve his purposes, for you to believe falsely. The poor kitties realize they cannot trust or claim anything about their master at all anymore, and fall into deep existential skepticism, and despair.

The kitties commit kitty suicide.Lame.

So, some go Home earlier than others. Wow. :rolleyes:

wilbur
12-18-2010, 01:23 PM
Discussing religion with Wiburrrrrr...

y'all might as well just set your genitals afire, it would be less painful.

Who's discussing religion?! I'm discussing cats.

m00
12-18-2010, 01:25 PM
Nope, no emotions from God. :rolleyes: It's not possible to read the Bible without coming away knowing that our definition of God and His love is so shallow as to be ridiculous. All He does is for love of His people, but He expresses anger and hatred for mankind's sin and hardness of heart over and over...even as Christ.

I said he had no human emotions. How do you know we have words that could even possibly describe them with any degree of accuracy.

m00
12-18-2010, 01:26 PM
Who's discussing religion?! I'm discussing cats.

In order to sit at the big boy table, you have to stop acting like a child.

wilbur
12-18-2010, 01:40 PM
The world is largely under the control of it's master, and that master has faked some books. Those that earnestly seek, though, do find the One God. And it must be recalled that only One Way differs from the pack...that Way in which God Himself reaches down to us.

Unless, of course, kitty master has a good reason for allowing your deception to continue. And if you were so deceived or not, it would be impossible for you to know. So even the kitty belief that the kitty master will give truth to those who earnestly seek it, must be doubted!

CaughtintheMiddle1990
12-18-2010, 02:55 PM
Unless, of course, kitty master has a good reason for allowing your deception to continue. And if you were so deceived or not, it would be impossible for you to know. So even the kitty belief that the kitty master will give truth to those who earnestly seek it, must be doubted!

RELIGION MUST BE OUTLAWED!!! RAHHRAHRH! I AM WILBUR AND I WANT RELIGION ABOLISHED RAHRAHHRAH!!EVILEVILEVL RELIGION!! LIFE IS MEANINGLESS RAHRAH!!!

AmPat
12-18-2010, 06:34 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-goldberg-tells-bill-oreilly-jesus-probably-would-be-a-liberal-democrat-2010-12
Funny.

Personally, I believe if Jesus were alive today those in power woud try to execute him (again). Nothing draws more hate and antagonism and divisiveness than Love and Truth,

Except divisive, repulsive haters of liberty that abuse their position and wipe their butts with our Constitution-----------Like today's present hate filled DIMRATS in power.:cool:

MrsSmith
12-18-2010, 07:21 PM
Unless, of course, kitty master has a good reason for allowing your deception to continue. And if you were so deceived or not, it would be impossible for you to know. So even the kitty belief that the kitty master will give truth to those who earnestly seek it, must be doubted!

Once a "kitty" actually meets the Master, the lack of deception is evident. Any "kitty" that requests such a meeting from the Master will be granted it. Only "kitties" that are so sure they are smarter than the Master have a major problem figuring things out. Weird, huh? :D

Even for kitties, being humble and repentant is quite helpful.

hampshirebrit
12-18-2010, 08:11 PM
Even for kitties, being humble and repentant is quite helpful.

Not for this unfortunate animal:

http://images.suite101.com/2212395_com_kitler2129.jpg

Keil Kitler. :D

Rockntractor
12-18-2010, 08:12 PM
Not for this unfortunate animal:

http://images.suite101.com/2212395_com_kitler2129.jpg

Keil Kitler. :D

Oy vay!:eek:

hampshirebrit
12-18-2010, 08:18 PM
Oy vay!:eek:

It's one of the best kitlers I've seen on t'internet.

OK, it's been p-shopped seventeen ways to buggery, but the tash and the lips are perfect. If Adolf ever came back as a kitteh, that would be how. :D

Rockntractor
12-18-2010, 08:20 PM
It's one of the best kitlers I've seen on t'internet.

OK, it's been p-shopped seventeen ways to buggery, but the tash and the lips are perfect. If Adolf ever came back as a kitteh, that would be how. :D

Yes but will it eat sauerkraut?:rolleyes:

Articulate_Ape
12-18-2010, 09:45 PM
It's one of the best kitlers I've seen on t'internet.

OK, it's been p-shopped seventeen ways to buggery, but the tash and the lips are perfect. If Adolf ever came back as a kitteh, that would be how. :D

How do you know that isn't Charlie Chat-plin?

Rockntractor
12-18-2010, 09:47 PM
How do you know that isn't Charlie Chat-plin?

Exactly, this is where the kraut test would come in.

hampshirebrit
12-18-2010, 10:23 PM
Look, if you guys can find a better kitler than mine, then have at it, post away. :D

Mine is the best, obviously.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
12-19-2010, 02:01 AM
If Jesus was alive today, he'd obviously be a Hippie.
Come on: Beard, Long Hair, Sandals, Foreign Attire, preaching about "Peace", and "Love"? Hippie.
http://faithfool.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/white-jesus.jpg

MrsSmith
12-19-2010, 08:33 AM
Not for this unfortunate animal:

http://images.suite101.com/2212395_com_kitler2129.jpg

Keil Kitler.
:D:D:D

AmPat
12-19-2010, 09:36 AM
It's one of the best kitlers I've seen on t'internet.

OK, it's been p-shopped seventeen ways to buggery, but the tash and the lips are perfect. If Adolf ever came back as a kitteh, that would be how. :D

That is a good one. No kraut test required. Hitler was flatulent and a vegetarian. Two simple tests to check his lineage.

wilbur
12-19-2010, 10:51 AM
Once a "kitty" actually meets the Master, the lack of deception is evident. Any "kitty" that requests such a meeting from the Master will be granted it. Only "kitties" that are so sure they are smarter than the Master have a major problem figuring things out. Weird, huh? :D

Even for kitties, being humble and repentant is quite helpful.

Woosh! Right over the head!

Rockntractor
12-19-2010, 01:53 PM
Woosh! Right over the head!

Woosh! Right out your ass!:rolleyes:

Wei Wu Wei
12-19-2010, 01:56 PM
The biggest problem for the kitties was yet to come.

The kitties had gone through their lives giving thank-you meows and purrs for all the good things that came their way. They just knew their master was watching out for them, making good things happen for them, because he loved them.

But bad things happened too. Lots of them. To explain why these things might happen they conclude that they just cannot know the mind of their master. It is incomprehensible to them, but he must have a reason.

Then they realized... by claiming that they cannot know their master's mind, they have pulled the rug out from under *all* their alleged knowledge of master. They realize that they left themselves with no footing upon which to say *anything* about the motives of their master, good or bad.

For everything they have come to believe that their master loves in the world, they also see the opposite. He supposedly likes happy kitties who purr, but there are kitties who are sick and die. He supposedly likes kitties who know his truth, but he allows so many kitties to believe the wrong things.

So maybe he had a good motive for allowing so much of what he dislikes into the world. Maybe he had a good motive for allowing suffering. Maybe he had a good motive for allowing deception. If he has a good motive for allowing deception, then its possible that all the things you believe about him, are false. It might serve his purposes, for you to believe falsely. The poor kitties realize they cannot trust or claim anything about their master at all anymore, and fall into deep existential skepticism, and despair.

The kitties commit kitty suicide.

Actually existential skepticism and despair are the first steps towards spiritual development (as opposed to neurotic repetition of ritual to keep the universe harmonious)

MrsSmith
12-20-2010, 07:37 PM
Woosh! Right over the head!

Sorry, wil. I know you have trouble getting it. Maybe someday...After it, it really isn't at all complicated, once you meet Him. :)

Madisonian
12-20-2010, 08:16 PM
2010 on Saturday (or somewhere there abouts)???:confused:

MrsSmith
12-21-2010, 07:12 PM
2010 on Saturday (or somewhere there abouts)???:confused:

Actually, since John makes it clear that Jesus was here when the universe and our world were created, He is literally eternal. Not 2010. :)

Rockntractor
12-21-2010, 07:20 PM
Actually, since John makes it clear that Jesus was here when the universe and our world were created, He is literally eternal. Not 2010. :)

Does he exist in his resurrected human body or in the form he was before the incarnation.

AmPat
12-21-2010, 07:29 PM
His scars are still visible and recognizable but he is in his glorified body. That's how he was seen ascending into Heaven.

Articulate_Ape
12-21-2010, 07:38 PM
His scars are still visible and recognizable but he is in his glorified body. That's how he was seen ascending into Heaven.

So, does Jesus have a penis in that form as well? And, if so, why?

I am not trying to be an ass here, I am just asking because, albeit the ascension image portrayed in the Bible, it defies my own notion of the vastness and incomprehensibility of God.

djones520
12-21-2010, 07:41 PM
So, does Jesus have a penis in that form as well? And, if so, why?

I am not trying to be an ass here, I am just asking because, albeit the ascension image portrayed in the Bible, it defies my own notion of the vastness and incomprehensibility of God.

You want to know if his wang is godlike! :eek:

Rockntractor
12-21-2010, 07:42 PM
So, does Jesus have a penis in that form as well? And, if so, why?

I am not trying to be an ass here, I am just asking because, albeit the ascension image portrayed in the Bible, it defies my own notion of the vastness and incomprehensibility of God.

I think our knowledge ends with the account witnessed at the ascension, Personally I think God appears in any form he choses now.

Articulate_Ape
12-21-2010, 07:46 PM
I think our knowledge ends with the account witnessed at the ascension, Personally I think God appears in any form he choses now.

Good answer, Rock. But only "now"?

Rockntractor
12-21-2010, 07:50 PM
Good answer, Rock. But only "now"?

There were instances in the old testament but it would seem most of these were messengers or angels sent to us. I think the human form of Jesus was for our benefit only and when he returns once again for our benefit he will be in human form again.

hampshirebrit
12-21-2010, 07:52 PM
So, does Jesus have a penis in that form as well? And, if so, why?

I am not trying to be an ass here, I am just asking because, albeit the ascension image portrayed in the Bible, it defies my own notion of the vastness and incomprehensibility of God.

OK, so far so ok.

That said, let's keep talk of Jesus's appendages to a minimum. It is Christmas, after all, and there is a number of our fellow CUers who would prefer not to discuss such things at this particular time.

Hopefully, I'm not going to come across as being PC (in either way). I'm just saying, let's do our best to keep things civil between us for the next few days. It's just nicer that way.

MrsSmith
12-21-2010, 07:55 PM
There were instances in the old testament but it would seem most of these were messengers or angels sent to us. I think the human form of Jesus was for our benefit only and when he returns once again for our benefit he will be in human form again.
In the Old Testament, God appeared as a man when He walked in the Garden, this was probably Jesus. He also appeared as a fire, a cloud, and an unbearable light, as I recall. I would think His form is not limited in any way.


So, for Ape, I would suppose He has the male parts if He chooses. :D

Articulate_Ape
12-21-2010, 09:40 PM
OK, so far so ok.

That said, let's keep talk of Jesus's appendages to a minimum. It is Christmas, after all, and there is a number of our fellow CUers who would prefer not to discuss such things at this particular time.

Hopefully, I'm not going to come across as being PC (in either way). I'm just saying, let's do our best to keep things civil between us for the next few days. It's just nicer that way.


I am on the same page. I was not trying to stir up trouble, but you are right. This is probably a bad time of the year to get into the philosophical questions I was posing. I'll behave.

M21
12-21-2010, 09:53 PM
Jesus IS alive today. :cool:

hampshirebrit
12-21-2010, 10:10 PM
Jesus IS alive today. :cool:

I (rather obviously) don't believe this at all, but it is good to see you back on CU, after what has been quite a long time.

Welcome back to CU, M21. It is good to see you here.

And if I dare say so, Merry Christmas.

AmPat
12-22-2010, 09:37 AM
So, does Jesus have a penis in that form as well? And, if so, why?

I am not trying to be an ass here, I am just asking because, albeit the ascension image portrayed in the Bible, it defies my own notion of the vastness and incomprehensibility of God.

:oI never thought to go there but it follows that if he was born, died, and arisen as a man, and ascended as a man, he was equipped as a man. He had the appendages of a man throughout his earthly ministry and was without sin, why would being in his glorified body be a problem? All Christians struggle with the God as one with three parts. I like the Water-Ice-Steam comparison, the same element with three forms. Also, I am a father, son, and person.

fettpett
12-22-2010, 09:56 AM
If Jesus were alive today, none of us would know it, because he would be preaching to some backwater illiterate tribe of people off in the Amazon or something - a few decades (or even hundreds) of years after the fact, the rumors and stories might trickle out to other regions. Some literate people in these other places might decide to write and record some of the rumors that finally trickled their way over the years. Then our descendants might actually know about it.

dude....you're a moron. Judea was situated on one of the most sought after trade routes in the world. The Jewish people were not illiterate or backward by any stretch. Conquered yes, backward, no. Most of them had to know 2-5 languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, Egyptian, and whatever other language they encountered in the East. That didn't mean EVERY person understood or spoke all those languages but many had to know at least Hebrew and Aramaic. They also have always put a big emphasis on education and knowing the scriptures even for the lest well off.

FBIGuy
12-22-2010, 10:08 AM
If Jesus were walking the earth today and he didn't have valid permits I'd have to arrest him for loitering and unlawful assembly.

AmPat
12-22-2010, 10:16 AM
dude....you're a moron. Judea was situated on one of the most sought after trade routes in the world. The Jewish people were not illiterate or backward by any stretch. Conquered yes, backward, no. Most of them had to know 2-5 languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, Egyptian, and whatever other language they encountered in the East. That didn't mean EVERY person understood or spoke all those languages but many had to know at least Hebrew and Aramaic. They also have always put a big emphasis on education and knowing the scriptures even for the lest well off.
Your facts are falling on DUmb ears. He is so blinded by his hatred of all things Christian, he refuses to acknowledge facts. He cannot allow any opportunity to attack religion go unmet lest he be an accomplice in somebody gaining a faith in something higher and better than himself.

MrsSmith
12-22-2010, 10:56 AM
If Jesus were walking the earth today and he didn't have valid permits I'd have to arrest him for loitering and unlawful assembly.
I think he's already been there-done that. :D

AmPat
12-22-2010, 11:59 AM
If Jesus were walking the earth today and he didn't have valid permits I'd have to arrest him for loitering and unlawful assembly.

Oh, yeah. You mean like the Black Panthers who were assembling and intimidating voters???????????? Oh wait, that was ok. Hmm. The self labeled "Christian" Phelpians who disrupt funerals???????????Nope, them neither. I'll think of something,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

wilbur
12-22-2010, 01:26 PM
dude....you're a moron. Judea was situated on one of the most sought after trade routes in the world. The Jewish people were not illiterate or backward by any stretch. Conquered yes, backward, no. Most of them had to know 2-5 languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, Egyptian, and whatever other language they encountered in the East. That didn't mean EVERY person understood or spoke all those languages but many had to know at least Hebrew and Aramaic. They also have always put a big emphasis on education and knowing the scriptures even for the lest well off.

I said "backwater", not "backward". And yes, they most certainly were... the waffle house at the remote exit on the interstate may lie on one of the most sought after trade routes in the world, and its employees may even have to speak Spanish and English, but that doesn't mean they can read or belong to the heart of civilization. Jesus'n'friends would be hanging at that awful waffle today working their miracles. Jesus would bless their nearly empty carton of liquid egg on a busy morning so that it kept pouring enough to serve all the bumpkin patrons.

The only thing you might say is irrelevant is the characterization of the ancient Jews as illiterate. Not because they weren't, they most certainly were. But everywhere in the ancient world, major city or backwater village, almost everyone was illiterate.

AmPat
12-22-2010, 02:40 PM
I said "backwater", not "backward". And yes, they most certainly were... the waffle house at the remote exit on the interstate may lie on one of the most sought after trade routes in the world, and its employees may even have to speak Spanish and English, but that doesn't mean they can read or belong to the heart of civilization. Jesus'n'friends would be hanging at that awful waffle today working their miracles. Jesus would bless their nearly empty carton of liquid egg on a busy morning so that it kept pouring enough to serve all the bumpkin patrons.

The only thing you might say is irrelevant is the characterization of the ancient Jews as illiterate. Not because they weren't, they most certainly were. But everywhere in the ancient world, major city or backwater village, almost everyone was illiterate.
Just don't be guilty of characterizing illiterate as ill/uninformed. The ancient Jews were informed and educated. There was no need at that time for each person to have a formal education because their society had dedicated roles designed to take care of those requirements.

fettpett
12-22-2010, 06:52 PM
I said "backwater", not "backward". And yes, they most certainly were... the waffle house at the remote exit on the interstate may lie on one of the most sought after trade routes in the world, and its employees may even have to speak Spanish and English, but that doesn't mean they can read or belong to the heart of civilization. Jesus'n'friends would be hanging at that awful waffle today working their miracles. Jesus would bless their nearly empty carton of liquid egg on a busy morning so that it kept pouring enough to serve all the bumpkin patrons.

The only thing you might say is irrelevant is the characterization of the ancient Jews as illiterate. Not because they weren't, they most certainly were. But everywhere in the ancient world, major city or backwater village, almost everyone was illiterate.

No, not true at all. The area was very much in demand as a hub of commerce. Jews were known throughout the world as some of the cleanest, most educated people. There was a reason why the land was sought not only by the Romans, but by the Greeks, Assyrians, Hittites, Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, English, etc.

Don't mistake the current level of ignorance and illiteracy of the region today (outside of Israel) for the level of culture and education of the ancient world.

Heck, Jesus's family was more than likely very well off for being a descendant of David, growing up in Nineveh which was a very important city for commerce. Joesph had a family prior to marring Mary and they had children after Jesus. Jews of any area frowned on having families if they couldn't provide for them. Plus we know that Jesus was literate as there are several mentions of him reading from the scriptures on Sabbath. Not only that but he knew the scriptures BETTER than many of the Priests of the temple at 12.

Most if not all of the Disciples had some level of education prior to following Christ

Articulate_Ape
12-22-2010, 07:02 PM
No, not true at all. The area was very much in demand as a hub of commerce. Jews were known throughout the world as some of the cleanest, most educated people. There was a reason why the land was sought not only by the Romans, but by the Greeks, Assyrians, Hittites, Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, English, etc.

Don't mistake the current level of ignorance and illiteracy of the region today (outside of Israel) for the level of culture and education of the ancient world.

Heck, Jesus's family was more than likely very well off for being a descendant of David, growing up in Nineveh which was a very important city for commerce. Joesph had a family prior to marring Mary and they had children after Jesus. Jews of any area frowned on having families if they couldn't provide for them. Plus we know that Jesus was literate as there are several mentions of him reading from the scriptures on Sabbath. Not only that but he knew the scriptures BETTER than many of the Priests of the temple at 12.

Most if not all of the Disciples had some level of education prior to following Christ

QFT

The Hebrews/Jews have a long history of literacy, to the point where it is now an obligation. While in any population you will have those who are illiterate, history and Jewish tradition suggest that the Jews in the Roman province of Palestine were probably more literate as a percentage of the population than were the very Roman army(s) that lorded over the region. I'm just sayin'.

Odysseus
12-23-2010, 11:44 AM
QFT

The Hebrews/Jews have a long history of literacy, to the point where it is now an obligation. While in any population you will have those who are illiterate, history and Jewish tradition suggest that the Jews in the Roman province of Palestine were probably more literate as a percentage of the population than were the very Roman army(s) that lorded over the region. I'm just sayin'.

Yes, but it only takes one literate Centurion to prove the rule. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8

Judea was also the land bridge between Europe, Asia and Africa, which is why every invading force passed through. The downside of that is obvious, but the upside was that, in addition to being learned in Hebrew and Aramaic, Jews were among the most cosmopolitan people in the world, having been familiar with Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman cultures.

Jesus, as a carpenter, would have had knowledge of basic geometry as well as a full Hebrew education. BTW, if he were alive today, he'd be driving a pick up truck with a long bed. Can't deliver a chest of drawers in a Prius.

Rockntractor
12-23-2010, 11:55 AM
BTW, if he were alive today, he'd be driving a pick up truck with a long bed. Can't deliver a chest of drawers in a Prius.

It would be a diesel, real men drive diesels!

hampshirebrit
12-23-2010, 01:06 PM
It would be a diesel, real men drive diesels!


You have got to be kidding me.

Only poofters drive diesel. Everyone knows this.

Rockntractor
12-23-2010, 01:13 PM
You have got to be kidding me.

Only poofters drive diesel. Everyone knows this.

poofter?:confused:

hampshirebrit
12-23-2010, 01:17 PM
poofter?:confused:

Try google. It's your friend.

Let's just say, only a poofter will be satisfied with a rev range that ends at 3,900 rpm.

Rockntractor
12-23-2010, 01:21 PM
Try google. It's your friend.

Let's just say, only a poofter will be satisfied with a rev range that ends at 3,900 rpm.

Ahh but you are wrong my tea drinking biscuit dunking friend.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/audis-diesel-race-car-too-fast-for-its-own-good.html

PoliCon
12-23-2010, 10:24 PM
Yes, but it only takes one literate Centurion to prove the rule. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8 No one spoke latin in the east except the romans themselves. :rolleyes: .Everyone knows business in the east was done in Greek. :p

movie buff
01-03-2011, 06:05 PM
Jesus was apolitical. He didn't demonstrate real leanings to either side, and the conservative Pharisees and liberal Saducees conspired together to kill Him.
As for the article's citing of the Bible verse on the camel and the eye of the needle (Socialists do love perverting that verse, don't they?), a couple points:
1. It is believed that that verse may have been mistranslated, that instead of "Camel," it may have been the Hebrew word "Gamel," which means "Thread." That would make more sense ("Easier for a thread to pass through the eye of a needle...").
2. In either case, He meant that love of money (As in, caring more about money and possessions than about your relationship with God) was sinful, not simply having a lot of money.

Oh, and btw, Wei, as you have bashed the Christian faith often in the past, I don't think you have any business telling us which political party Jesus would belong to.

noonwitch
01-04-2011, 08:55 AM
Just don't be guilty of characterizing illiterate as ill/uninformed. The ancient Jews were informed and educated. There was no need at that time for each person to have a formal education because their society had dedicated roles designed to take care of those requirements.



The Romans are the ones who recorded the history that secular readers know, except for maybe the writings of Flavius Josephus, who was a romanized jew (like the apostle Paul). The Romans thought that all their conquered peoples were illiterate and "primative" compared to the culture they created and considered to be superior to any other ever created. They would have never recognized the complexities and history of the hebrew language or religion as being anything but "barbarian" .

Odysseus
01-04-2011, 10:29 AM
The Romans are the ones who recorded the history that secular readers know, except for maybe the writings of Flavius Josephus, who was a romanized jew (like the apostle Paul). The Romans thought that all their conquered peoples were illiterate and "primative" compared to the culture they created and considered to be superior to any other ever created. They would have never recognized the complexities and history of the hebrew language or religion as being anything but "barbarian" .

You are mostly correct, but with a couple of exceptions. First, the term "barbarian" comes from the Greek "barbaros", or one who does not speak the language. It may be more accurately translated as outsider or stranger, and in that regard, the Romans considered everyone outside of Roman culture to be alien, but not necessarily inferior. The Romans recognized the Greek culture as being the equal of Roman culture, for example, and held Greek philosophy and art in high esteem. They considered the Hebrews incomprehensible, but not barbarians, the way that they looked at the Gaulic tribes. It was more akin to an American's reaction to a Frenchman's chauvinism about French culture. If anything, they perceived the eastern peoples as decadent and in decline, rather than simply barbaric.