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CaughtintheMiddle1990
01-16-2011, 12:30 PM
This may seem an odd question
But are there any religions that you feel you could follow not as a religion based on the question of God, but as a philosophy. For example, a non-Theistic Christian--In the sense that one would appreciate Christ's philosophy, but not in a theological sense or believing in the God mentioned in the Bible; Likewise, for another example, Buddhism.

BadCat
01-16-2011, 12:35 PM
This may seem an odd question
But are there any religions that you feel you could follow not as a religion based on the question of God, but as a philosophy. For example, a non-Theistic Christian--In the sense that one would appreciate Christ's philosophy, but not in a theological sense or believing in the God mentioned in the Bible; Likewise, for another example, Buddhism.

I don't have a problem with the philosophies of most religions (Islam excluded). But I'm not much of a follower of anything, so...no.

Novaheart
01-16-2011, 12:51 PM
This may seem an odd question
But are there any religions that you feel you could follow not as a religion based on the question of God, but as a philosophy. For example, a non-Theistic Christian--In the sense that one would appreciate Christ's philosophy, but not in a theological sense or believing in the God mentioned in the Bible; Likewise, for another example, Buddhism.

Watts classified Buddhism as psychotherapy. Most Caucasian Buddhists appear to think of it as something between a philosophy and a metaphor for understanding metaphysics. Joseph Campbell long ago outlined the successor to traditional Christianity as the philosophical Christian, or one for whom Christianity is a metaphor for understanding. Confusing the question of course, are the hybrids of Buddhism which graft Hindu or other deities, elevated persons or ancestors, or which reason that there must be physically functional levels of consciousness above where we are now but below Oneness/Nothingness.

Campbell was insistent that the listener understand what a metaphor truly is, because like many words it is commonly misused. A metaphor takes the place of the item in question, it stands in. A simile is an abstract term, a metaphor is a physical term.

So the modern Christian isn't sitting there verbally translating as the mass takes place; his brain is taking in the mythology and digesting it as philosophy. More mechanical is the process by which the mind separates the organic morality, or universal philosophy, from the folk lore or prejudices of the time. So if the Bible is being misogynistic or racist, the brain doesn't translate that, it pushes it off to the side. Some people would call that denial, but in Campbell's analysis, it's evolution.

Novaheart
01-16-2011, 12:58 PM
PS- I love most of the trappings of classical Christianity, it's the fundies and preachy ones who ruin it for the rest of us. The music, the art, the ceremony, the candles, incense, imagery, and ritual is faboo.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
01-16-2011, 03:04 PM
PS- I love most of the trappings of classical Christianity, it's the fundies and preachy ones who ruin it for the rest of us. The music, the art, the ceremony, the candles, incense, imagery, and ritual is faboo.


I think if religion ever dies, it'll be the fundies who killed it.
Not that fundies are bad people--But you get the really visible ones like Jerry Falwell and the like who could turn away reasonable person away from the religion they espouse.
The ultra fundies give a bad name to religion. And I'm not just talking about Christian fundamentalists.

Wei Wu Wei
01-16-2011, 04:13 PM
Taoism and/or Buddhism are probably the most popular for atheists.

fettpett
01-16-2011, 04:22 PM
Taoism and/or Buddhism are probably the most popular for atheists.

Taoism and Buddhism are religions...you can't believe in them and be an atheist

Yukon
01-16-2011, 04:26 PM
An atheist denies the existance of god. Nearly all religions have a god. The belief of many people is that you are good if you believe in the Christian God, and bad if you believe in the Muslim Allah. Odd but factual.

Wei Wu Wei
01-16-2011, 04:28 PM
Taoism and Buddhism are religions...you can't believe in them and be an atheist

There is no Personal God or Intelligent supreme being in either of them.


the focus of these religions tends to be how one relates to themselves and with reality, not with worshiping a transcendental Person.

idk about all the specific definitions of religion or God, but I'm pretty sure you can be Buddhist or Taoist while being an atheist.

Yukon
01-16-2011, 04:32 PM
I thought Buddhists prayed to a fat old Chinese statue. Doesn't that statue represent their god?

fettpett
01-16-2011, 04:32 PM
There is no Personal God or Intelligent supreme being in either of them.


the focus of these religions tends to be how one relates to themselves and with reality, not with worshiping a transcendental Person.

idk about all the specific definitions of religion or God, but I'm pretty sure you can be Buddhist or Taoist while being an atheist.

it's pretty simple really, but here, i'll give you the definition from the dictionary


a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Buddhism and Taoism both deal with this. Both are are direct decedents of Hinduism which has many gods.

If they believe in Buddhism they are Buddhist, they believe in Taoism they are Taoist...pretty simple...they are not Atheist

Wei Wu Wei
01-16-2011, 04:34 PM
I thought Buddhists prayed to a fat old Chinese statue. Doesn't that statue represent their god?

no and no

Yukon
01-16-2011, 04:34 PM
fettpett,

Not only are you an expert on the morality of abortion but now you are an expert in theology too? My, my but you are so talented, you could give crazy Sarah a run for her money.

Wei Wu Wei
01-16-2011, 04:39 PM
it's pretty simple really, but here, i'll give you the definition from the dictionary

okay what's the dictionary definition of atheist?


a·the·ism

 /ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.





Buddhism and Taoism both deal with this. Both are are direct decedents of Hinduism which has many gods.

If they believe in Buddhism they are Buddhist, they believe in Taoism they are Taoist...pretty simple...they are not Atheist

Buddhism and Taoism do deal with the nature of the Universe, so they are religions, but they do not incorporate a supreme being or absolute deity, so they are atheistic religions.

Hinduism is rather more complex to talk about, especially considering that there is so much difference between variations of the religion, and some of these variations can be considered Atheistic. There isn't one homogeneous "Hinduism" despite our desire to categorize everything in simple boxes

fettpett
01-16-2011, 04:44 PM
fettpett,

Not only are you an expert on the morality of abortion but now you are an expert in theology too? My, my but you are so talented, you could give crazy Sarah a run for her money.

haha, no expert, but I'd rather have some morality than none at all.


I like reading up on different religions and cultures.

wilbur
01-16-2011, 06:29 PM
There are a few things of value to pull from most religions - hell, you might even be able to find a few nuggets of genuine wisdom of practical value for everyday life in scientology.

But no - if you scrape away all the unsubstantiated BS in most religions, there's little left to follow.

Rockntractor
01-16-2011, 07:00 PM
If you scraped away all the BS from Wilbur you would be lucky to have a sausage casing left!

Yukon
01-16-2011, 07:53 PM
okay what's the dictionary definition of atheist?

Buddhism and Taoism do deal with the nature of the Universe, so they are religions, but they do not incorporate a supreme being or absolute deity, so they are atheistic religions.

Hinduism is rather more complex to talk about, especially considering that there is so much difference between variations of the religion, and some of these variations can be considered Atheistic. There isn't one homogeneous "Hinduism" despite our desire to categorize everything in simple boxes

Wei,

As a true Christian I can only say that I believe no person can enter Heaven but through belief in our Savious Jesus Christ. Those who do not believe in Him as the Son of God are doomed to be cast out into everlasting eternal darkness. There is no valid religion other that Christianity - no person can profess to be a Christian abd believe otherwise.

I call upon everyone to convert to Christ before it is too late, you will gain eternal life.

Wei Wu Wei
01-16-2011, 08:00 PM
Wei,

As a true Christian I can only say that I believe no person can enter Heaven but through belief in our Savious Jesus Christ. Those who do not believe in Him as the Son of God are doomed to be cast out into everlasting eternal darkness. There is no valid religion other that Christianity - no person can profess to be a Christian abd believe otherwise.

I call upon everyone to convert to Christ before it is too late, you will gain eternal life.

While I'm sure your beliefs and your own personal relationship with God works very well for you, and I'm sure you are 100% steadfast in your convictions, I still think that this approach towards spreading the message actually pushes more people away than it brings in.

Yukon
01-16-2011, 08:15 PM
Wei,

i cant go into too much depth on this subject because my comments will be mistaken as racist. It is better to let "sleeping dogs lie".

Madisonian
01-16-2011, 08:55 PM
Wei,

As a true Christian I can only say that I believe no person can enter Heaven but through belief in our Savious Jesus Christ. Those who do not believe in Him as the Son of God are doomed to be cast out into everlasting eternal darkness. There is no valid religion other that Christianity - no person can profess to be a Christian abd believe otherwise.

I call upon everyone to convert to Christ before it is too late, you will gain eternal life.


While I'm sure your beliefs and your own personal relationship with God works very well for you, and I'm sure you are 100% steadfast in your convictions, I still think that this approach towards spreading the message actually pushes more people away than it brings in.

I think he is pulling your leg Wei.
Somehow the Christian beliefs he quoted here to not line up with his statements supporting abortion and though I could be wrong, I don't think Jesus Christ would have considered an unborn child a "parasitic mass of unwanted fetal tissue", nor looked kindly upon those who would.

Rockntractor
01-16-2011, 08:58 PM
I think he is pulling your leg Wei.
Somehow the Christian beliefs he quoted here to not line up with his statements supporting abortion and though I could be wrong, I don't think Jesus Christ would have considered an unborn child a "parasitic mass of unwanted fetal tissue", nor looked kindly upon those who would.

This is why I thought perhaps there is hope for him, I was hoping he could unlearn his racism and hatred for babies.

The Night Owl
01-16-2011, 09:33 PM
There are a few things of value to pull from most religions - hell, you might even be able to find a few nuggets of genuine wisdom of practical value for everyday life in scientology.

But no - if you scrape away all the unsubstantiated BS in most religions, there's little left to follow.

Would you say there are any religious beliefs or religious principles which have their practical value to humanity inexorably tied to the existence of a deity? That is, are there any valuable aspects of religion which are intrinsically religious? I say no.

Bleda
01-17-2011, 04:50 AM
Would you say there are any religious beliefs or religious principles which have their practical value to humanity inexorably tied to the existence of a deity? That is, are there any valuable aspects of religion which are intrinsically religious? I say no.

Not saying I agree or disagree with this, but... Objective morality.

Bleda
01-17-2011, 04:56 AM
For example, a non-Theistic Christian--In the sense that one would appreciate Christ's philosophy, but not in a theological sense or believing in the God mentioned in the Bible

Of course. I'm sure most atheists believe in many/most of the good things that Jesus preached, even though they don't exactly follow Jesus or Christianity. I once even called myself a "Judeo-Christian Agnostic" when asked about my beliefs. :)

wilbur
01-17-2011, 10:38 AM
Not saying I agree or disagree with this, but... Objective morality.

Theistic accounts of objective morality all die by the Euthyphro dilemma, which asks:

"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

If the theist picks the first horn, then moral laws are independent of God will, and we can presumably discover and learn about them without the need for God as the intermediary. So no religion would be needed there...

If the theist picks the second horn, well... moral laws are the subjective whims of a deity, not objective.

The Night Owl
01-17-2011, 10:42 AM
Not saying I agree or disagree with this, but... Objective morality.

The concept of objective morality is incompatible with the concept of a sovereign god: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

The Night Owl
01-17-2011, 10:43 AM
Note to self: Wake up four minutes earlier.

FlaGator
01-17-2011, 10:56 AM
The concept of objective morality is incompatible with the concept of a sovereign god: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

The whole Euthyphro Dilemma has a major logical fallacy in that it sets up a false dichotomy, a false either or situation.

http://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2010/03/euthyphros-problem/

wilbur
01-17-2011, 11:49 AM
The whole Euthyphro Dilemma has a major logical fallacy in that it sets up a false dichotomy, a false either or situation.

http://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2010/03/euthyphros-problem/

Nope - even if one attempts to wiggle out of the horns by grounding morality in the essential goodness of God's nature as the author of the blog post in the link does, the dilemma comes along for the ride, and can be reformulated like so:

"Is what is morally good a part of God's nature because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is part of God's nature?"

FlaGator
01-17-2011, 12:07 PM
Nope - even if one attempts to wiggle out of the horns by grounding morality in the essential goodness of God's nature as the author of the blog post in the link does, the dilemma comes along for the ride, and can be reformulated like so:

"Is what is morally good a part of God's nature because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is part of God's nature?"

Yes

Yukon
01-17-2011, 12:12 PM
Nope - even if one attempts to wiggle out of the horns by grounding morality in the essential goodness of God's nature as the author of the blog post in the link does, the dilemma comes along for the ride, and can be reformulated like so:

"Is what is morally good a part of God's nature because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is part of God's nature?"

Wilbur,

I agree with your comments and ask you this question: Is morality not a man-made concept designed to ensure we live according to, in our culture, defined Christian values ?

wilbur
01-17-2011, 12:15 PM
Yes

No

wilbur
01-17-2011, 12:28 PM
Wilbur,

I agree with your comments and ask you this question: Is morality not a man-made concept designed to ensure we live according to, in our culture, defined Christian values ?

Moral laws are rules we create, presumably based upon shared values, so that we can, in some sense, accomplish mutual goals.

FlaGator
01-17-2011, 12:28 PM
No

I like you. You have never been afraid of being wrong in public. :D

For your reading pleasure (http://booksbycslewis.blogspot.com/2008/04/abolition-of-man.html)

Yukon
01-17-2011, 12:30 PM
Moral laws are rules we create, presumably based upon shared values, so that we can, in some sense, accomplish mutual goals.

I agree Wilbur. Good luck dealing with these cavemen on the abortion/free choice issue.

wilbur
01-17-2011, 12:58 PM
I like you. You have never been afraid of being wrong in public. :D

For your reading pleasure (http://booksbycslewis.blogspot.com/2008/04/abolition-of-man.html)

Heh - not sure what that article is supposed to accomplish... it certainly didnt escape euthyphro.

Zathras
01-17-2011, 01:16 PM
Wilbur,

I agree with your comments for I am a liberal douchebag just like you and ask you this question: Herp derp...derp Durrrrr?

Fixed.