Adam Wood
01-20-2011, 12:02 AM
BrentWil (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:21 PM
Original message
What is the minimum standard of living a society should accept for its poorest? (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x232633)
Simple question, very complex answers. Thought this is a very basic discussion that one should spend some time thinking about every so often.Oh, these are always good for a riot. It was one of these types of threads a few years ago in which one of the DUmmies declared that no one should be allowed to have more than 300 square feet of living space. LOL!
These are always great because they start with "food, housing, and health care" and they inevitably devolve into there being an absolute necessity for a late-model car, a college education, high-speed internet access, a new computer each year, and cable television (to watch C-SPAN and MSNBC, of course), as well as at least three weeks per year of paid vacation, with travel to exotic destinations paid for (not in first class, though; that would be entirely too bourgeois).
HEyHEY (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. Shelter, food, healthcare, education n/t
Cardboard box, can of Alpo, pack of Band-Aids, and a dog-eared dictionary.
OK. Works for me.
Oops! Looks like those were too vague. Better come up with other stuff that should be free to everyone regardless of whether or not they've earned it:
Motown_Johnny (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. + water, heat (or air conditioning in extreme climates) Some other energy provisions
such as simply having electric lights a refrigerator and a way to cook food, proper sanitation, proper clothing, some minimal creature comforts such as basic furniture
Security should go without saying, police and fire protection as well as EMS services if needed and national defense.
I know it seems like I am listing a lot but it is less than what we spend keeping people in prison.
OK, so now we're at a cardboard box with a 40-watt light bulb, some sterno, a doorway to shit in along Lombard Street, Oscar de LaRenta, a chair for reading the dictionary, someone to deliver Band-Aids, and an eeeeevvvviiiiiilllll military.
HEyHEY (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. I consider those part of shelter.
Oh. OK. Clothing, a stove, a refrigerator, ambulances, fire engines, and policemen are now part of "shelter." Gonna put those cops up in your spare room in your cardboard box, Skippy?
leftstreet (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. Article 1, Section 25, Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml
Ah! So now we have to throw a retirement plan from the cardboard box into the mix. At some point, presumably, someone will want to take their cardboard box to Boca Raton and retire there.
jody (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Excellent answer but what if there's not enough wealth to go around? nt
Oops! What do we do when we run out of other people's money?
Not to worry:
leftstreet (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Go around where? We the people CREATE the wealth
There's enough of OUR wealth in the hands of the global ruling elite to tide us all over nicely
Oh! Good answer! We'll take it from the rich, because they are an endless source of wealth to expropriate.
DJ13 (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Theres always enough wealth, no matter the country
Take a country like Mexico for an example, it has an abundance of wealth derived from its rich mineral deposits, but the wealthy have never developed a sense of sharing, so theres a huge disparity between the well off and extreme poverty.
Its getting the obscenely wealthy to share thats the problem in most every country.
Aww, man, that's even BETTER! Rather than actually stealing the money from the rich, we'll just convince them to share their money through taxation. That way we can feel much better about ourselves as we tell ourselves that by killing the rich and taking their stuff, it's their own fault because they weren't willing to share what they've earned like they were supposed to.
demmiblue (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
7. Food, housing, healthcare, education, modest vacation. n/t
TA DA! Not much. Just a couple of weeks in Tahiti and Bora Bora should do the trick. Then people can come home to their cardboard boxes and again be productive members of society.
bobbolink (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. After the obvious necessities, FDR included recreation.
But, then... he was a Commie.
Seems reasonable that poor people should have access to things like recreation centers... to be able to swim, work out, take classes, etc. Even the Indian villages of New Mexico do that for their people. Why is it so unthinkable for the rest of the nation?
And now we know why the Communists gutted churches and turned them into swimming pools.
Luminous Animal (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
14. Guaranteed income for all adults.
I'm thinking $24,000 a year indexed to real cost of living increases. For every dollar you earn, a dollar is taken away.
BRILLIANT! We should have thought of this before! Everyone makes the same amount of money no matter how productive they are. That way, there will be tremendous incentive for everyone to innovate and hustle.
Oh, wait....
So, this one very quickly devolved into the Wood Postulate™:
In any discussions amongst liberals about standards of living, wealth, or income, the discussion will eventually boil down to the advocacy of a maximum wage.
Always good for a laugh. Ever want to watch a Leftist's head explode? Just force them to define "food," "housing/shelter," "clothing," and "transportation." They just completely freak out, or else they totally freeze up. Isn't caviar food? Shouldn't that be a "basic human right?" The Biltmore Estate is "housing," isn't it? If clothing is a "basic human right," then shouldn't everyone be given Armani suits and Prada? A Ferrari is transportation. Isn't that what's needed to satisfy the "transportation" requirement? Seems you think that the city bus isn't sufficient. Hilarious! They just completely can't deal with their envy-based policy positions when they're challenged. LOL!
Original message
What is the minimum standard of living a society should accept for its poorest? (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x232633)
Simple question, very complex answers. Thought this is a very basic discussion that one should spend some time thinking about every so often.Oh, these are always good for a riot. It was one of these types of threads a few years ago in which one of the DUmmies declared that no one should be allowed to have more than 300 square feet of living space. LOL!
These are always great because they start with "food, housing, and health care" and they inevitably devolve into there being an absolute necessity for a late-model car, a college education, high-speed internet access, a new computer each year, and cable television (to watch C-SPAN and MSNBC, of course), as well as at least three weeks per year of paid vacation, with travel to exotic destinations paid for (not in first class, though; that would be entirely too bourgeois).
HEyHEY (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. Shelter, food, healthcare, education n/t
Cardboard box, can of Alpo, pack of Band-Aids, and a dog-eared dictionary.
OK. Works for me.
Oops! Looks like those were too vague. Better come up with other stuff that should be free to everyone regardless of whether or not they've earned it:
Motown_Johnny (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. + water, heat (or air conditioning in extreme climates) Some other energy provisions
such as simply having electric lights a refrigerator and a way to cook food, proper sanitation, proper clothing, some minimal creature comforts such as basic furniture
Security should go without saying, police and fire protection as well as EMS services if needed and national defense.
I know it seems like I am listing a lot but it is less than what we spend keeping people in prison.
OK, so now we're at a cardboard box with a 40-watt light bulb, some sterno, a doorway to shit in along Lombard Street, Oscar de LaRenta, a chair for reading the dictionary, someone to deliver Band-Aids, and an eeeeevvvviiiiiilllll military.
HEyHEY (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. I consider those part of shelter.
Oh. OK. Clothing, a stove, a refrigerator, ambulances, fire engines, and policemen are now part of "shelter." Gonna put those cops up in your spare room in your cardboard box, Skippy?
leftstreet (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. Article 1, Section 25, Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml
Ah! So now we have to throw a retirement plan from the cardboard box into the mix. At some point, presumably, someone will want to take their cardboard box to Boca Raton and retire there.
jody (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Excellent answer but what if there's not enough wealth to go around? nt
Oops! What do we do when we run out of other people's money?
Not to worry:
leftstreet (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Go around where? We the people CREATE the wealth
There's enough of OUR wealth in the hands of the global ruling elite to tide us all over nicely
Oh! Good answer! We'll take it from the rich, because they are an endless source of wealth to expropriate.
DJ13 (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Theres always enough wealth, no matter the country
Take a country like Mexico for an example, it has an abundance of wealth derived from its rich mineral deposits, but the wealthy have never developed a sense of sharing, so theres a huge disparity between the well off and extreme poverty.
Its getting the obscenely wealthy to share thats the problem in most every country.
Aww, man, that's even BETTER! Rather than actually stealing the money from the rich, we'll just convince them to share their money through taxation. That way we can feel much better about ourselves as we tell ourselves that by killing the rich and taking their stuff, it's their own fault because they weren't willing to share what they've earned like they were supposed to.
demmiblue (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
7. Food, housing, healthcare, education, modest vacation. n/t
TA DA! Not much. Just a couple of weeks in Tahiti and Bora Bora should do the trick. Then people can come home to their cardboard boxes and again be productive members of society.
bobbolink (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. After the obvious necessities, FDR included recreation.
But, then... he was a Commie.
Seems reasonable that poor people should have access to things like recreation centers... to be able to swim, work out, take classes, etc. Even the Indian villages of New Mexico do that for their people. Why is it so unthinkable for the rest of the nation?
And now we know why the Communists gutted churches and turned them into swimming pools.
Luminous Animal (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
14. Guaranteed income for all adults.
I'm thinking $24,000 a year indexed to real cost of living increases. For every dollar you earn, a dollar is taken away.
BRILLIANT! We should have thought of this before! Everyone makes the same amount of money no matter how productive they are. That way, there will be tremendous incentive for everyone to innovate and hustle.
Oh, wait....
So, this one very quickly devolved into the Wood Postulate™:
In any discussions amongst liberals about standards of living, wealth, or income, the discussion will eventually boil down to the advocacy of a maximum wage.
Always good for a laugh. Ever want to watch a Leftist's head explode? Just force them to define "food," "housing/shelter," "clothing," and "transportation." They just completely freak out, or else they totally freeze up. Isn't caviar food? Shouldn't that be a "basic human right?" The Biltmore Estate is "housing," isn't it? If clothing is a "basic human right," then shouldn't everyone be given Armani suits and Prada? A Ferrari is transportation. Isn't that what's needed to satisfy the "transportation" requirement? Seems you think that the city bus isn't sufficient. Hilarious! They just completely can't deal with their envy-based policy positions when they're challenged. LOL!