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LogansPapa
06-06-2008, 10:58 AM
The US unemployment rate rose at its fastest pace in more than two decades in May, stoking fears of recession in the world's biggest economy.

The surprise jump in May's jobless rate to 5.5% from 5% is the most recent signal yet that US growth is stalling.

It shows US companies are more reluctant to hire as profits are squeezed by a consumer slowdown and soaring oil and raw material costs.

The US Labor Department said the economy lost 49,000 non-farm jobs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7440104.stm

gator
06-06-2008, 11:44 AM
The NeoCons and the Liberals are using a third of the GNP of the economy for the cost of government and we wonder why the unemployment rate is going up?

Rebel Yell
06-06-2008, 11:55 AM
I don't put much faith in unemployment rates. The way I see it, at least 4% of the 5.5% just will ot work. I see it all the time. People who are just too damned sorry to work. And that is thanks to the liberal handouts and incentive to not work. Most unemployment is due to people just being too damned sorry to work.

Constitutionally Speaking
06-06-2008, 12:59 PM
And yet we are STILL below the unemployment levels we saw during much of the booming Clinton economy!!!!

noonwitch
06-06-2008, 01:10 PM
Is it still around 7% in Michigan?

3 homes on my block have been foreclosed on in the past two weeks. My next door neighbors are going to lose theirs by the end of July-they said they can't afford to keep the house up anymore, anyways, since he took a buyout from Ford a couple years ago, and his woman has probably never worked. I don't want an empty house, but I am glad that they are leaving, as undoubtedly the local police are, too.

Constitutionally Speaking
06-06-2008, 01:10 PM
The NeoCons and the Liberals are using a third of the GNP of the economy for the cost of government and we wonder why the unemployment rate is going up?


No doubt this is hurting, but the bigger issue right now is the pressures brought on our economy by the outrageous prices we are paying for energy.

If the Dems would have allowed us to develop our own natural resources, this could have been avoided completely.

The price we are paying for fuel is the economic equivalent of a HUGE tax increase.

lacarnut
06-06-2008, 01:11 PM
The truth of the matter is that the unemployment numbers were 5.2% last month and then adjusted down 2 ticks to 5%. This 5.5% figure could be adjusted downward also. So I do not understand what all the hullablu is about anyway. Pick up the employment ad section of your newspaper and there are tons of jobs there. If the employment rate was so bad, you would have the media crying about all those college grads that can not get a job. This story is a yawner and more typical liberal b.s.

LogansPapa
06-06-2008, 01:49 PM
And yet we are STILL below the unemployment levels we saw during much of the booming Clinton economy!!!!

Ah, the ol’ "But Clinton Did This and Didn’t Do That" default position. How many thousands of days has BubbaCheeseBurger been out of the Oval Office now? Like blaming the dog when the cat shits on the rug.

Could be that part about the unemployment rate growing at a pace not seen for 20 years. :cool:

lacarnut
06-06-2008, 02:24 PM
Ah, the ol’ "But Clinton Did This and Didn’t Do That" default position. How many thousands of days has BubbaCheeseBurger been out of the Oval Office now? Like blaming the dog when the cat shits on the rug.

Could be that part about the unemployment rate growing at a pace not seen for 20 years. :cool:

And you are so full of doom & gloom when this little ittsy bittsy story is about important as a nat on an elephant's ass. Did you miss the good news yesterday when employment and retail sales were up. Since the economy is expanding rather than contracting, the word recession is another no brainer like the unemployment rate of 5.5% which by the way might get reduced like it did last month.

LogansPapa
06-06-2008, 02:29 PM
And you are so full of doom & gloom when this little ittsy bittsy story is about important as a nat on an elephant's ass.

What, are smoking crack in your mom's basement? Google just listed all 1,245 news articles on the subject at 30 minutes after the hour. Hello? Is anyone out there? Hello?

gator
06-06-2008, 02:31 PM
No doubt this is hurting, but the bigger issue right now is the pressures brought on our economy by the outrageous prices we are paying for energy.

If the Dems would have allowed us to develop our own natural resources, this could have been avoided completely.

The price we are paying for fuel is the economic equivalent of a HUGE tax increase.

We are paying more money for oil because of the devaluation of the dollar, which is a result of high government deficit spending.

LogansPapa
06-06-2008, 02:37 PM
We are paying more money for oil because of the devaluation of the dollar, which is a result of high government deficit spending.

I can think of a place where the 140,000,000 Americans can pick up $78.57 per year extra cash.;)

lacarnut
06-06-2008, 02:43 PM
What, are smoking crack in your mom's basement? Google just listed all 1,245 news articles on the subject at 30 minutes after the hour. Hello? Is anyone out there? Hello?

So what. Am I supposed to be impressed with the number of news stories. Are you so studpid that you can not read. I told you that the number was downgraded from 5.2% to 5% in the prievious month and that the .5% increase this month may also be downgraded when new figures come out. If you do not understand that government figures are upgraded and downgraded all the time, you are the one either smoking crack or you do not have a clue about how government figures. FYI, I worked as an auditor for the LA Dept. of Revenue. I think I know more than some journalist or even you on how government works.

LogansPapa
06-06-2008, 02:53 PM
Yep - it’s a good thing. My bad.


Overall, the economy has shed 324,000 jobs this year, the worst start to a year since 2002, when the nation was still struggling with the aftereffects of a recession.

The job losses in the payroll report were widespread, as the battered construction industry lost 34,000 jobs and manufacturers cut 26,000 jobs from the nation's factories. But the service sector also saw job losses in many sectors, as retailers trimmed 27,000 jobs. The business and professional services categories took a 39,000 job hit.

"The business and professional has to be a focus of concern. The job losses have broadened out," Silvia said. "Those are generally good-paying jobs. This is a clear sign the weakness is spreading beyond the construction and manufacturing."

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/06/news/economy/jobs_may/?postversion=2008060612

lacarnut
06-06-2008, 03:09 PM
Yep - it’s a good thing. My bad.


Overall, the economy has shed 324,000 jobs this year, the worst start to a year since 2002, when the nation was still struggling with the aftereffects of a recession.

The job losses in the payroll report were widespread, as the battered construction industry lost 34,000 jobs and manufacturers cut 26,000 jobs from the nation's factories. But the service sector also saw job losses in many sectors, as retailers trimmed 27,000 jobs. The business and professional services categories took a 39,000 job hit.

"The business and professional has to be a focus of concern. The job losses have broadened out," Silvia said. "Those are generally good-paying jobs. This is a clear sign the weakness is spreading beyond the construction and manufacturing."

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/06/news/economy/jobs_may/?postversion=2008060612

Like I said this .5% increase in one month unemployment is not a monumental concern as long as the employment rate stays stable and there are plenty of jobs to be found. The media and dipshits like Greenspan have been trying to put us into a recession for the last 2 years. Like someone's else said, anyone that wants a job can get one that does not have lead in their ass. That is a fact so once again I say all these figures are meaningless unles you just want to cry, bitch, moan, groan, country going to pot and any other liberal bull shit you want to come up.

BTW, I would bet you even money that the guy that wrote that articel for Money will vote for Obama. He starts off the sky is falling routine in his first paragraph so that tells me that he is a loony liberal in my opinion with his tirade about high oil prices, housing crash, credit markets etc. etc..

Constitutionally Speaking
06-06-2008, 04:19 PM
Ah, the ol’ "But Clinton Did This and Didn’t Do That" default position. How many thousands of days has BubbaCheeseBurger been out of the Oval Office now? Like blaming the dog when the cat shits on the rug.

Could be that part about the unemployment rate growing at a pace not seen for 20 years. :cool:


I'm not blaming Clinton. I am just drawing a comparison in the way things are reported. During much of the Clinton administration we had far higher rates of unemployment and it got reported as an economic boom.

Here we have an unemployment rate that is lower than the historical average of each of the last few decades and the media plays chicken little.

Wages are higher - even AFTER adjusting for the recent price increases than at ANY POINT during the Clinton administration and yet we have the media searching out doom and gloom stories.


How about a bit of fairness in the reporting????

Constitutionally Speaking
06-06-2008, 04:21 PM
We are paying more money for oil because of the devaluation of the dollar, which is a result of high government deficit spending.

I was not disagreeing with you, because what you said is absolutely true, but the main reason we are paying more for oil is simple supply and demand, and the Democrats have prevented us from increasing supply.

Constitutionally Speaking
06-06-2008, 04:23 PM
I can think of a place where the 140,000,000 Americans can pick up $78.57 per year extra cash.;)



???????:confused:

LogansPapa
06-06-2008, 04:24 PM
???????:confused:

Reference our support of Israel for clarification.;)

gator
06-06-2008, 05:09 PM
I was not disagreeing with you, because what you said is absolutely true, but the main reason we are paying more for oil is simple supply and demand, and the Democrats have prevented us from increasing supply.Because dollars are cheaper the buyers have to offer more.

lacarnut
06-06-2008, 08:37 PM
The unemployment rate has risen from 5% in June of 2005 to 5.5% in May of 2008. .5 tenths of one per cent in 3 years in this aawwwfffuuullll Bush economy. Don't know about the doomers and gloomers or so called conservatives that have their head up their ass but during the last three years I am a hell of a lot better off. You don't think that the news media is trying to influence the election. Naw, they would not do that.

One reason for the jump in unemployment (NOT EMPLOYMENT) is that students and others that enter the work force and sign up at the employment office are counted in the Unemployment figures. Go figure the stupidity in that!

MrsSmith
06-06-2008, 10:12 PM
The unemployment figure is simply another media distraction. :rolleyes: It's too bad some intelligent people are dumb enough to think it matters...

http://www.bls.gov/web/lauhsthl.htm

CLibertarian
06-06-2008, 11:28 PM
There is no one that I know that is unemployed if they actually want to have a job.

Zathras
06-07-2008, 12:55 AM
There is no one that I know that is unemployed if they actually want to have a job.

True. I left my previous job at the beggining of April. I took 6 weeks off before looking for work. 2 weeks later I have a new job (and maybe moving on from that shortly for a job with Fed-Ex).

du freeper
06-07-2008, 01:15 AM
Love him or hate him, Ron Paul has the right idea by cutting all foreign aid. We give both Israel and the "palestinians" foreign aid to do what? Blow each other up? Our Nation is going deeper in debt yet we keep bleeding our tax dollars out to unappreciative despots and thugs all over the world.

lacarnut
06-07-2008, 01:31 AM
The unemployment figure is simply another media distraction. :rolleyes: It's too bad some intelligent people are dumb enough to think it matters...

http://www.bls.gov/web/lauhsthl.htm

We have some fools here that believe everything they read. The media loves to sensationalize the news, and it's a shame that people are too stupid to sort out the truth. The number and availability of jobs in the US is plentiful.

L.P. you need to get out of your mommy's basement and quit using crack.

du freeper
06-07-2008, 01:35 AM
We have some fools here that believe everything they read. The media loves to sensationalize the news, and it's a shame that people are too stupid to sort out the truth. The number and availability of jobs in the US is plentiful.

L.P. you need to get out of your mommy's basement and quit using crack.

So we should keep looking at the world through rose colored glasses? You see nothing wrong with the economy?

megimoo
06-07-2008, 01:51 AM
What, are smoking crack in your mom's basement? Google just listed all 1,245 news articles on the subject at 30 minutes after the hour. Hello? Is anyone out there? Hello?And weren't the children wonderful today ?

lacarnut
06-07-2008, 09:18 AM
So we should keep looking at the world through rose colored glasses? You see nothing wrong with the economy?

I don't see it as cloudy and gray and the glass is half empty and the economy is going to hell in a hand basket either.

I see plenty of things right about the economy( Plenty of jobs, pay increased last month, retail sales up last month).

Oh, if you are talking about the .5% increase in unemployment last month, you need to get your head out of your ass. Like I said 5/10 of 1 per cent in three years is no big deal. You can ballywho that bullshit all you want but it is of little importance cause 5.5% unemployment rate is a FANTASTIC NUMBER. Ask the Germans & French what their unemployment rate is?

du freeper
06-07-2008, 09:36 AM
I don't see it as cloudy and gray and the glass is half empty and the economy is going to hell in a hand basket either.

I see plenty of things right about the economy( Plenty of jobs, pay increased last month, retail sales up last month).

Oh, if you are talking about the .5% increase in unemployment last month, you need to get your head out of your ass. Like I said 5/10 of 1 per cent in three years is no big deal. You can ballywho that bullshit all you want but it is of little importance cause 5.5% unemployment rate is a FANTASTIC NUMBER. Ask the Germans & French what their unemployment rate is?

You can start by quit comparing us to other countries. I give a rats ass about them. I did not say that our economy is "going to hell in a handbasket". But ignoring the problems will not make them go away.

lacarnut
06-07-2008, 10:01 AM
You can start by quit comparing us to other countries. I give a rats ass about them. I did not say that our economy is "going to hell in a handbasket". But ignoring the problems will not make them go away.

What problems are you speaking of in regard to employment in the United States? Explain

LogansPapa
06-07-2008, 10:26 AM
Yep - all the $10-12 an hour jobs you can double-shift. The paper's full of them.;)

Zeus
06-07-2008, 10:30 AM
Unemployment is up for at least three reasons. None of which actually has anything to do with jobs or lack there of. Schools out so ya got a couple million more bodies counted as unemployed. It is an election season & Businesses are holding back to see if the Bush tax cuts are made permanent and/or who will be moving into the white house come next January.

It is rather comical how the same set of figures are treated differently by the media depending upon the party in the White house. 5.5 % unemployment during the Clinton administration heralded as the best economy in 50 yrs. 5.5% unemployment during the Bush Admin is decried as the worst economy in 30 yrs. Partricularly when other economic factors are markedly better during the Bush Admin. All done will executing a dual front war, Recovering from numerous natural disasters and revenue spent on additionalsecurity measures due to 911.Also accomplished while the $ is at or near an all time low.

gator
06-07-2008, 10:51 AM
Yep - all the $10-12 an hour jobs you can double-shift. The paper's full of them.;)


I do part time consulting.

At my consulting firm we are looking for two Engineers at this time. We will pay over $100K, which is a good living here in Central Florida.

Of course it is a non union job and you have to be smart and willing to work hard.

I know not very many Liberals like the idea of actually working for a living but there are jobs available.

CLibertarian
06-07-2008, 10:56 AM
Yep - all the $10-12 an hour jobs you can double-shift. The paper's full of them.;)

If you didn't live in the city, you can afford to live on that until find a better paying job. You're a typical Liberal. You expect people to hand you a $50K per year entry level job right out of school with liberal arts degree (almost the same as no degree).

lacarnut
06-07-2008, 11:22 AM
Yep - all the $10-12 an hour jobs you can double-shift. The paper's full of them.;)

You should have been around in the 60's and 70's when any job was hard to find and the ad section of the newspaper contained one or two pages. Then you would have had something to moan, groan and cry about. If you were not union back then your wages amounted to peanuts. The goods times are here if you get the lead out and work hard; you have to start at the bottom and work your way up unless your pappy owns the company.

CLibertarian
06-07-2008, 12:07 PM
I do part time consulting.

At my consulting firm we are looking for two Engineers at this time. We will pay over $100K, which is a good living here in Central Florida.

Of course it is a non union job and you have to be smart and willing to work hard.

I know not very many Liberals like the idea of actually working for a living but there are jobs available.

His Liberal Arts degree should help him land one of those jobs, shouldn't it?;)

LogansPapa
06-07-2008, 12:19 PM
You should have been around in the 60's and 70's when any job was hard to find and the ad section of the newspaper contained one or two pages. Then you would have had something to moan, groan and cry about. If you were not union back then your wages amounted to peanuts. The goods times are here if you get the lead out and work hard; you have to start at the bottom and work your way up unless your pappy owns the company.


Are you at the crack pipe again? I was born in 51' and started out sweeping the floor in my Dad's original place - with one hand. You are pissing up a rope, dude.:cool:

LogansPapa
06-07-2008, 12:24 PM
If you didn't live in the city, you can afford to live on that until find a better paying job. You're a typical Liberal. You expect people to hand you a $50K per year entry level job right out of school with liberal arts degree (almost the same as no degree).

Nobody's expecting anything - I'm sure as Hell not. My point was that there's been a massive shift and the $35 - 50k per year jobs are being vacuumed up by overseas investments and the bean counters of this country, via wide open cowboy days trade rules, have given away the store. Watch America's Port and you'll see the crane operator explaining that he off-loads full containers and loads empty ones going overseas. Only the crippled value of the dollar keeps that reality for being 100%.

Zeus
06-07-2008, 12:30 PM
Are you at the crack pipe again? I was born in 51' and started out sweeping the floor in my Dad's original place - with one hand. You are pissing up a rope, dude.:cool:


My son got his summer job back. Instead of $20/hr he is making $15/hr but is guaranteed more hours (translates into working harder ). I think a 17 yr old should be able to make do with $15/hr.

LogansPapa
06-07-2008, 12:32 PM
My son got his summer job back. Instead of $20/hr he is making $15/hr but is guaranteed more hours (translates into working harder ). I think a 17 yr old should be able to make do with $15/hr.

If he lives in Kansas - with his mom and dad, I agree.;)

gator
06-07-2008, 12:52 PM
His Liberal Arts degree should help him land one of those jobs, shouldn't it?;)


The stupid Liberals have an entitlement mindset. They think everything should be given to them.

If a Liberal or anybody else can't find a job then it is their own fracking fault.
Life is hard but it is harder if you are stupid.

The unions ran a lot of jobs out of America. The Trial Lawyers have made it very difficult for business to be productive and they are the two main contributors to the Democrat Party. Liberals think they can waste time in school learning about Black culture and social injustice and bitch when nobody wants to hire them.

Piss on them.

LogansPapa
06-07-2008, 12:54 PM
Classic gator.:p

CLibertarian
06-07-2008, 12:58 PM
My son got his summer job back. Instead of $20/hr he is making $15/hr but is guaranteed more hours (translates into working harder ). I think a 17 yr old should be able to make do with $15/hr.

Holy Crap! $15/hr at 17 years old. When I was 17, we were nearing the end of the Carter Administration. You were lucky to get a minimum wage job and even then you had to know someone to get it.

Goldwater
06-07-2008, 01:28 PM
The stupid Liberals have an entitlement mindset. They think everything should be given to them.

If a Liberal or anybody else can't find a job then it is their own fracking fault.
Life is hard but it is harder if you are stupid.

The unions ran a lot of jobs out of America. The Trial Lawyers have made it very difficult for business to be productive and they are the two main contributors to the Democrat Party. Liberals think they can waste time in school learning about Black culture and social injustice and bitch when nobody wants to hire them.

Piss on them.

This is a pretty good post, I approve.

lacarnut
06-07-2008, 02:36 PM
Classic gator.:p

The truth hurts. Quit taking drugs and wake up. Plenty of jobs in this good Bush economy. You might have to move, you might have to work hard, you might have to start at the bottom. Tough shit; it's called llife.

MrsSmith
06-07-2008, 02:59 PM
My son got his summer job back. Instead of $20/hr he is making $15/hr but is guaranteed more hours (translates into working harder ). I think a 17 yr old should be able to make do with $15/hr.

My 19 year old turned in ONE application for a full-time position...and got it 2 days later, when she interviewed. She was honest on her ap, admitted one misdemeanor charge. Her only other job experience was 2 months working part-time cleaning a neighbor's house.

The organization that hired her also hired about 10 other 18 - 19 year old kids, straight out of school.

But there are "No jobs" in this horrible Bush economy... :rolleyes:

I will admit, there are very few jobs for those that are too lazy to apply, or want to make 80K the first year.

du freeper
06-07-2008, 09:26 PM
What problems are you speaking of in regard to employment in the United States? Explain

I am speaking of the economy overall not just the employment sector.

Zeus
06-07-2008, 09:36 PM
My 19 year old turned in ONE application for a full-time position...and got it 2 days later, when she interviewed. She was honest on her ap, admitted one misdemeanor charge. Her only other job experience was 2 months working part-time cleaning a neighbor's house.

The organization that hired her also hired about 10 other 18 - 19 year old kids, straight out of school.

But there are "No jobs" in this horrible Bush economy... :rolleyes:

I will admit, there are very few jobs for those that are too lazy to apply, or want to make 80K the first year.

I've been putting it off but eventually my son is going to have to work for me If he is going to take over my business interests. I have had him help om small jobs but he needs to learn the business end also. He better turn mexican & become a framer if he wants $15+/hr though. :p

My first paying job was picking rocks and I made $1.50/hr and I thought I was in High cotton.

AmPat
06-08-2008, 08:14 AM
I do part time consulting.

At my consulting firm we are looking for two Engineers at this time. We will pay over $100K, which is a good living here in Central Florida.

Of course it is a non union job and you have to be smart and willing to work hard.

I know not very many Liberals like the idea of actually working for a living but there are jobs available.

I retire in three years. Hire me.:D

MrsSmith
06-08-2008, 08:36 AM
I've been putting it off but eventually my son is going to have to work for me If he is going to take over my business interests. I have had him help om small jobs but he needs to learn the business end also. He better turn mexican & become a framer if he wants $15+/hr though. :p

My first paying job was picking rocks and I made $1.50/hr and I thought I was in High cotton.

Mine first outside-the-family job (after doing farm and kennel work for 8 years) was fast food, and I made $2.65 an hour. Way, way better than the penny-per-minute my parents paid! :D

Constitutionally Speaking
06-08-2008, 10:41 AM
You can start by quit comparing us to other countries. I give a rats ass about them. I did not say that our economy is "going to hell in a handbasket". But ignoring the problems will not make them go away.


Ignoring them certainly won't make them go away, but blowing them out of proportion is a self fullfilling prophesy. It WILL bring about a recession - even if one was not on the horizon.

The negative press and doom and gloomers have a REAL effect on consumer confidence. When that confidence falls and impacts spending, we are in trouble.

For years, despite a real economic boom, all we saw was doom and gloom on the news. Every time we got a good jobs report, the press did not emphasize that aspect, they instead focused on how that would spur inflation etc.

That irresponsible reporting has begun to affect how people see things and all we needed was some trigger to set of wild raging fears. We got that trigger with oil prices and the housing bust - yet despite this, the economy is strong enough - so far - to avoid slipping into a recession. The Dems are trying to change that by creating fear in people and preaching more doom and gloom, and of course, the press is right there ratcheting up that fear. They are CAUSING the problems that otherwise would be corrected in short order.

gator
06-08-2008, 11:51 AM
Ignoring them certainly won't make them go away, but blowing them out of proportion is a self fullfilling prophesy. It WILL bring about a recession - even if one was not on the horizon.

The negative press and doom and gloomers have a REAL effect on consumer confidence. When that confidence falls and impacts spending, we are in trouble.

For years, despite a real economic boom, all we saw was doom and gloom on the news. Every time we got a good jobs report, the press did not emphasize that aspect, they instead focused on how that would spur inflation etc.

That irresponsible reporting has begun to affect how people see things and all we needed was some trigger to set of wild raging fears. We got that trigger with oil prices and the housing bust - yet despite this, the economy is strong enough - so far - to avoid slipping into a recession. The Dems are trying to change that by creating fear in people and preaching more doom and gloom, and of course, the press is right there ratcheting up that fear. They are CAUSING the problems that otherwise would be corrected in short order.

We have never been ten trillion dollars in debt before and never have we had as much deficit spending. Never have we increased the cost of government a trillion dollars a year under one administration unless it during WWII. We have never had a looming entitlement debt of 56 trillion dollars. There never has been a time when we have produced as small as pertecntages of our energy as we do now. There has never been so many illegals flooding ito our country now. We have never been commited to as many overseas operations as we are now, even during WWII. There has never been a time when the one third of GNP is being spent on the government unless it was during WWII.

LogansPapa
06-08-2008, 11:58 AM
Gator: DING, DING, DING, DING and f'ing DING!!! Outstanding! :cool:

Constitutionally Speaking
06-08-2008, 12:44 PM
We have never been ten trillion dollars in debt before and never have we had as much deficit spending. Never have we increased the cost of government a trillion dollars a year under one administration unless it during WWII. We have never had a looming entitlement debt of 56 trillion dollars. There never has been a time when we have produced as small as pertecntages of our energy as we do now. There has never been so many illegals flooding ito our country now. We have never been commited to as many overseas operations as we are now, even during WWII. There has never been a time when the one third of GNP is being spent on the government unless it was during WWII.


I don't disagree with a thing you say here, but if fuel prices were not so high, it would all be manageable (economically anyway). That is NOT to argue we should just ignore the issues you bring up. It is to argue that we are creating an undue panic on the state of the economy.

Odysseus
06-08-2008, 01:16 PM
I can think of a place where the 140,000,000 Americans can pick up $78.57 per year extra cash.;)

Why do the words "LogansMama" and "world's oldest profession" come to mind right now?


Are you at the crack pipe again? I was born in 51' and started out sweeping the floor in my Dad's original place - with one hand. You are pissing up a rope, dude.

You could have used both hands if you'd:

Put down the crack pipe
Stopped touching yourself in an inappropriate way for the workplace.
Taken your thumb out of your @$$
Bought a belt to hold your pants up.


Anybody else got any?
:D

gator
06-08-2008, 01:54 PM
I don't disagree with a thing you say here, but if fuel prices were not so high, it would all be manageable (economically anyway). That is NOT to argue we should just ignore the issues you bring up. It is to argue that we are creating an undue panic on the state of the economy.

This is where we may disagree.

I think the time is now for panic because there is nothing in our infrastructure that I think can pull us out, which is different from times past.

We were saved in the 90s by the worldwide increase in productivity brought on by the implementation of computers in the business world and the relative low cost of oil. That gave us a little breathing room and we squandered it away by substantially increasing the cost of government, implementing more entitlement programs, constricting business (even drilling for oil), increasing debt, increasing costly interventionism and spending more than we took in.

All of that is starting to catch up and we have nothing now that I can see that will save us. The declining dollar is a great measurement that the rest of the world agrees with me. They don't want American dollars because there is nothing they want from us.

As much as you disliked Ron Paul he was right on all these issues. I am not saying he would have made a good President but at least he knew the problems facing this country and most so called Conservatives call him Dr. Nuts because they didn't like to hear the truth.

The people in America that call themselves Conservatives just don’t want to hear that the time has come to just say no to big government and interventionism. It is too uncomfortable. Bush didn’t have the guts to do and neither does McCain.

LogansPapa
06-08-2008, 02:04 PM
Why do the words "LogansMama" and "world's oldest profession" come to mind right now? :D

Yep - making jest of someone's long deceased mother, that's classy.:rolleyes:

lacarnut
06-08-2008, 03:06 PM
We have never been ten trillion dollars in debt before and never have we had as much deficit spending. Never have we increased the cost of government a trillion dollars a year under one administration unless it during WWII. We have never had a looming entitlement debt of 56 trillion dollars. There never has been a time when we have produced as small as pertecntages of our energy as we do now. There has never been so many illegals flooding ito our country now. We have never been commited to as many overseas operations as we are now, even during WWII. There has never been a time when the one third of GNP is being spent on the government unless it was during WWII.

Our debt has a great deal to do with our spending habits by consumers. Look a the rebate check. The government does not want you to save it. They want you to spend it. For the last 10 or so years, the government has encouraged people to charge shit instead of paying cash for it. The govenment has encouraged people to buy, buy like their is no tommorow. The housing and credit mess can be partially blamed on democrats and republicians. We have overextend ourselves. So now we are going to go thru a period of pain. Pain at the pump, pain in consumer spending, pain in housing cause dumb asses can not go put a second or third mortgage on their house to go buy a boat, car or go over to the EU.

We have been in worse shape; Americans are great at digging themselves out of a hole. After the election, all this doom and gloom will dissapate. If McCain wins, I think he will attack spending and the debt. BTW, 60% of our imbalance in trade comes our importation of oi.

gator
06-08-2008, 03:16 PM
We have been in worse shape; Americans are great at digging themselves out of a hole. After the election, all this doom and gloom will dissapate. If McCain wins, I think he will attack spending and the debt. BTW, 60% of our imbalance in trade comes our importation of oi.

You are not under the impression that spending will actually decrease are you????

Even Ronald Reagan couldn't make that happen.

At the best all McCain would do is slightly decrease the rate of increased spending.

If you don't cut spending significantly the only thing you can do is raise taxes, which is always a disaster.

Bush never vetoed a spending bill while his party was in control of the government. I suspect that at the end of the day spending will go up a trillion dollars a year under a McCain administration.

McCain is big on compromise and he will have a hard time with a Democrat controlled Congress. Nothing will happen except a lot of words.

lacarnut
06-08-2008, 03:43 PM
You are not under the impression that spending will actually decrease are you????

Even Ronald Reagan couldn't make that happen.

At the best all McCain would do is slightly decrease the rate of increased spending.

If you don't cut spending significantly the only thing you can do is raise taxes, which is always a disaster.

Bush never vetoed a spending bill while his party was in control of the government. I suspect that at the end of the day spending will go up a trillion dollars a year under a McCain administration.

McCain is big on compromise and he will have a hard time with a Democrat controlled Congress. Nothing will happen except a lot of words.

Spending will not go down nor will programs be eliminated or reduced. Our politicians have raped and robbed us for over 40 years by spending the money that was supposed to go into the S.S. fund. Had this money been saved and invested, there would be enough money to fund medicare, medicaid, social security, RX drug plan. That part of the pie is huge. Add to that our retarded energy policy and it's lucky we are still afloat.

Bush & the Repubs have lost their way and have propagated the spend and borrow philosophy of the libs. When Newt left Congress, the Repub. party went into the crapper. That's why I think he is the only one that is worth a shit as McCain's VP. A good leader can turn this thing around. I can not believe what the new Gov. of LA has done with a Democ. legislature in just a few months. It takes leadership and Bush has given us none in the spending and big government department.

One good thing that has happened during this Bush Admn. is that revenues have increased dramatically. God help us if Obama is elected and the economy goes into the crapper.

Zeus
06-08-2008, 03:53 PM
Mine first outside-the-family job (after doing farm and kennel work for 8 years) was fast food, and I made $2.65 an hour. Way, way better than the penny-per-minute my parents paid! :D

On our family farm it wasn't what you'd get for doing something,it was what you'd get if you didn't do it. :eek: Child labor Laws don't apply yo family memebers ya know ;)

MrsSmith
06-08-2008, 04:47 PM
On our family farm it wasn't what you'd get for doing something,it was what you'd get if you didn't do it. :eek: Child labor Laws don't apply yo family memebers ya know ;)

I suppose my folks were either fairly progressive, or just sick of making us do some jobs. We got paid for the ones no one would do otherwise...scooping manure, scooping grain, running tractor 8 hours a day, building fence, that kind of stuff. :D Of course, once you'd accepted the job in order to get the pay, it was yours forever... :(

wilbur
06-08-2008, 05:09 PM
I don't put much faith in unemployment rates. The way I see it, at least 4% of the 5.5% just will ot work. I see it all the time. People who are just too damned sorry to work. And that is thanks to the liberal handouts and incentive to not work. Most unemployment is due to people just being too damned sorry to work.

You only get calculated and measured into the unemployment rate if you are actively seeking employment. If you are not looking for a job, you arent included.

Constitutionally Speaking
06-08-2008, 07:36 PM
This is where we may disagree.

I think the time is now for panic because there is nothing in our infrastructure that I think can pull us out, which is different from times past.

We were saved in the 90s by the worldwide increase in productivity brought on by the implementation of computers in the business world and the relative low cost of oil. That gave us a little breathing room and we squandered it away by substantially increasing the cost of government, implementing more entitlement programs, constricting business (even drilling for oil), increasing debt, increasing costly interventionism and spending more than we took in.

All of that is starting to catch up and we have nothing now that I can see that will save us. The declining dollar is a great measurement that the rest of the world agrees with me. They don't want American dollars because there is nothing they want from us.

As much as you disliked Ron Paul he was right on all these issues. I am not saying he would have made a good President but at least he knew the problems facing this country and most so called Conservatives call him Dr. Nuts because they didn't like to hear the truth.

The people in America that call themselves Conservatives just don’t want to hear that the time has come to just say no to big government and interventionism. It is too uncomfortable. Bush didn’t have the guts to do and neither does McCain.


Other than his foreign policy, I thought Paul was the best candidate.

gator
06-08-2008, 07:53 PM
Other than his foreign policy, I thought Paul was the best candidate.

Paul has it right on Interventionism just like our Founding Fathers.

I differ with him in that I think it is in our best interest to complete the mission in Iraq before extracting ourselves from the dirty business of Middle East politics.

We can’t be the world’s policemen. We can’t protect everybody in the world. We need to use our military only to protect America, not taking sides in wars that have nothing to do with us. We don’t need military bases all over the world. We sure as hell don’t need to be guaranteeing the security of countries like Israel, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Somalia, and the goddamn Muslims in Bosnia, just to name a few.

Constitutionally Speaking
06-08-2008, 08:03 PM
Paul has it right on Interventionism just like our Founding Fathers.

I differ with him in that I think it is in our best interest to complete the mission in Iraq before extracting ourselves from the dirty business of Middle East politics.

We can’t be the world’s policemen. We can’t protect everybody in the world. We need to use our military only to protect America, not taking sides in wars that have nothing to do with us. We don’t need military bases all over the world. We sure as hell don’t need to be guaranteeing the security of countries like Israel, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Somalia, and the goddamn Muslims in Bosnia, just to name a few.


I don't see it as being the world's policeman. I see it as a battle for survival. The radical islamists are truly murderous and they REALLY do want to bring their war here. It is not about us being friendly with Israel. It is about us not being their brand of muslim.

gator
06-08-2008, 09:30 PM
I don't see it as being the world's policeman. I see it as a battle for survival. The radical islamists are truly murderous and they REALLY do want to bring their war here. It is not about us being friendly with Israel. It is about us not being their brand of muslim.

You can pretend that Israel is not the issue but you are wrong about that and I think you know it. We empowered the radical Muslims by giving them a rallying issue by arming and supporting Israel. You know that as good as I do. Before Israel became an issue the radical Muslims were nothing.

If we had minded our own business in the Middle East 40 years ago and not armed the Israelis shits we wouldn’t be worrying about the Muslims now.

This is the blind spot of the NeoCons. They don’t understand the consequences of interventionism. Our Founding Fathers understood this concept very well but the NeoCons don’t have a clue. They think they can give weapons to the Israelis to kill Palestinians women and children and nothing will ever happen.

Our best plan for survival is to not be intervening all over the world in affairs that have nothing to do with our own security.

Goldwater
06-08-2008, 09:32 PM
You can pretend that Israel is not the issue but you are wrong about that and I think you know it. We empowered the radical Muslims by giving them a rallying issue by arming and supporting Israel. You know that as good as I do. Before Israel became an issue the radical Muslims were nothing.

If we had minded our own business in the Middle East 40 years ago and not armed the Israelis shits we wouldn’t be worrying about the Muslims now.

This is the blind spot of the NeoCons. They don’t understand the consequences of interventionism. Our Founding Fathers understood this concept very well but the NeoCons don’t have a clue. They think they can give weapons to the Israelis to kill Palestinians women and children and nothing will ever happen.

Our best plan for survival is to not be intervening all over the world in affairs that have nothing to do with our own security.

One of the problems is how we empowered the radical muslims to drive the Soviets out in Afghanistan, and then left the country alone with no money to redevelopment or improvement. So it boiled in it's own insanity and until of course, 9/11.

gator
06-08-2008, 09:38 PM
One of the problems is how we empowered the radical muslims to drive the Soviets out in Afghanistan, and then left the country alone with no money to redevelopment or improvement. So it boiled in it's own insanity and until of course, 9/11.


Long before Afghanistan the Arabs were pissed at us because of Israel and they were flexing their muscles. I remember waiting in long gas lines in the early 1970s because we were being boycotted. That should have been a damn good warning for us to stay out of affairs that were none of our business but no we were stupid and continued to arm the Israeli shits.

MrsSmith
06-08-2008, 10:28 PM
Long before Afghanistan the Arabs were pissed at us because of Israel and they were flexing their muscles. I remember waiting in long gas lines in the early 1970s because we were being boycotted. That should have been a damn good warning for us to stay out of affairs that were none of our business but no we were stupid and continued to arm the Israeli shits.

The only democracy in the ME.

LogansPapa
06-08-2008, 11:02 PM
Long before Afghanistan the Arabs were pissed at us because of Israel and they were flexing their muscles. I remember waiting in long gas lines in the early 1970s because we were being boycotted. That should have been a damn good warning for us to stay out of affairs that were none of our business but no we were stupid and continued to arm the Israeli shits.

Yes, and as we've all witnessed in the last 5 & 1/2 years, nation building - while it may have not been our initial mission - is a very expensive folly.

lacarnut
06-08-2008, 11:08 PM
Yes, and as we've all witnessed in the last 5 & 1/2 years, nation building - while it may have not been our initial mission - is a very expensive folly.

And we have not been attacked in 7 years either. If Obama is elected, that will change.

LogansPapa
06-08-2008, 11:11 PM
And we have not been attacked in 7 years either. If Obama is elected, that will change.

I'm sure there's a connection there somewhere, but understand, I've grown immune to the "GWB Fear Button.'

lacarnut
06-08-2008, 11:32 PM
I'm sure there's a connection there somewhere, but understand, I've grown immune to the "GWB Fear Button.'

Since you started the thread about unemployment, what relationship does that have to do with nation building. If you do not want to stay on topic, I suggest you get your head out of your ass because being immune to the fact that we will be attacked again is foolish. I understand that for lliberals and libertarians that live in la la land this is just a pipe dream that this will not happen again.

LogansPapa
06-08-2008, 11:37 PM
Since you started the thread about unemployment, what relationship does that have to do with nation building. If you do not want to stay on topic, I suggest you get your head out of your ass because being immune to the fact that we will be attacked again is foolish. I understand that for lliberals and libertarians that live in la la land this is just a pipe dream that this will not happen again.

Actually, it was in reference to gator's post - go try to feed your crap to him.:rolleyes:

lacarnut
06-08-2008, 11:52 PM
Actually, it was in reference to gator's post - go try to feed your crap to him.:rolleyes:

The facts are that your crappy little editorial got taken to the wood shed and powned. Whoever changed the subject matter does not understand governmental accounting as it pertains to unemployment figures.

LogansPapa
06-08-2008, 11:55 PM
The facts are that your crappy little editorial got taken to the wood shed and powned. Whoever changed the subject matter does not understand governmental accounting as it pertains to unemployment figures.

No, as a member of the NTMA - I've not a clue.:rolleyes:

Constitutionally Speaking
06-09-2008, 06:20 AM
You can pretend that Israel is not the issue but you are wrong about that and I think you know it. We empowered the radical Muslims by giving them a rallying issue by arming and supporting Israel. You know that as good as I do. Before Israel became an issue the radical Muslims were nothing.

If we had minded our own business in the Middle East 40 years ago and not armed the Israelis shits we wouldn’t be worrying about the Muslims now.

This is the blind spot of the NeoCons. They don’t understand the consequences of interventionism. Our Founding Fathers understood this concept very well but the NeoCons don’t have a clue. They think they can give weapons to the Israelis to kill Palestinians women and children and nothing will ever happen.

Our best plan for survival is to not be intervening all over the world in affairs that have nothing to do with our own security.

The Islamists were problems before Israel existed in modern times. Israel has certainly given them an excuse, but that is all it is - an excuse.

The middle east situation was very much influenced by the Soviet Union who supplied the Arab countries with weapons and who instigated much of the problems in the area.

Shooster
06-09-2008, 07:00 AM
How long have the Democrats been in power now? Just saying.

gator
06-09-2008, 07:19 AM
The only democracy in the ME.


You got to be kidding me!

They are no more a democracy than any of the other Middle East theocracies. They are no different than the Muslims theocracies except maybe they kill more people.

They are a brutal apartheid theocracy just like all the other Middle East shit holes.

There are two very stupid reasons the NeoCons give to support Israel and you just used one of them.

1. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East

2. God wants us to support Israel if we want to go to Heaven.

gator
06-09-2008, 07:31 AM
The Islamists were problems before Israel existed in modern times. Israel has certainly given them an excuse, but that is all it is - an excuse.

The middle east situation was very much influenced by the Soviet Union who supplied the Arab countries with weapons and who instigated much of the problems in the area.


Not to us prior to arming the Israelis. In fact before June 1967 the US actually had a plan to be even handed in the Middle East in order to prevent Soviet influence. I have posted that information several times on CU. The Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was done to prevent us from knowing how successful the Israelis were and to stop us from exercising that even handiness with them. They were afraid we would stop them from destroying the Egyptian army.

The US changed its policy of even handiness in 1967. LBJ wanted to support his "little buddies" and because of that he got the whole goddamn Arab world pissed at us. The Soviets benefited from it and we gave the radical Muslims the cause they needed.

Neo Cons never will admit that the arming of Israel led to 911. They want to blame it on the evil Muslims so that they and Israel will appear to be blameless.

The thing is that you know this as good as I do but you (like me for a long time) find it difficult to accept responsibility for being stupid.

lacarnut
06-09-2008, 09:07 AM
How long have the Democrats been in power now? Just saying.

In the last 50 years, the Democraps have been in power over 40 years. Just saying.

Odysseus
06-09-2008, 01:05 PM
Yep - making jest of someone's long deceased mother, that's classy.:rolleyes:

You know us Jews. Anything for a laugh.

LogansPapa
06-09-2008, 01:13 PM
You know us Jews. Anything for a laugh.

Okay you bastard.........THAT WAS FUNNY!:p

lacarnut
06-09-2008, 07:24 PM
Neo Cons never will admit that the arming of Israel led to 911. They want to blame it on the evil Muslims so that they and Israel will appear to be blameless.



Tell you what. If Obama is elected Prez, he could go over to the M.E. kiss every Muslims ass, pull all troops out, tell them we want to be friends, tell them that we will not support Israel with weapons, money or support and the bastards would still want to kill us. If you do not believe that, you are mistaken.

gator
06-09-2008, 07:41 PM
Tell you what. If Obama is elected Prez, he could go over to the M.E. kiss every Muslims ass, pull all troops out, tell them we want to be friends, tell them that we will not support Israel with weapons, money or support and the bastards would still want to kill us. If you do not believe that, you are mistaken.

We have passed the point of no return. We have given the Radical Muslims what they want, a real issue to excite the masses. We screwed up 40 years ago and we are paying the price now.

We have screwed ourselves so that a few politicians could get money from the pro Israel lobby and now it is going to be hard to turn back the clock.

I suggest we complete the mission in Iraq so that we are not perceived as weak, hunt down Bin Laden in Afghanistan and then stop supporting Israel and giving money to any other Middle East country. Just quietly extract ourselves from Middle East politics.

Our only business in the Middle East should be to buy oil at world prices. If our economy is threaten by unstable governments then we should act appropriately like we did in 1991 to secure the supply of oil. In the meantime we should start drilling for our own oil and building nuclear power plants to wean ourselves from Middle East dependency.

This route of non interventionism will make us more secure in the long run. As long as support Israel then we will be inviting big trouble and it is simply not worth the cost.

Constitutionally Speaking
06-09-2008, 08:07 PM
Not to us prior to arming the Israelis. In fact before June 1967 the US actually had a plan to be even handed in the Middle East in order to prevent Soviet influence. I have posted that information several times on CU. The Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was done to prevent us from knowing how successful the Israelis were and to stop us from exercising that even handiness with them. They were afraid we would stop them from destroying the Egyptian army.

The US changed its policy of even handiness in 1967. LBJ wanted to support his "little buddies" and because of that he got the whole goddamn Arab world pissed at us. The Soviets benefited from it and we gave the radical Muslims the cause they needed.

Neo Cons never will admit that the arming of Israel led to 911. They want to blame it on the evil Muslims so that they and Israel will appear to be blameless.

The thing is that you know this as good as I do but you (like me for a long time) find it difficult to accept responsibility for being stupid.


No , I don't think I know as much as you in this area. I'll readily admit that. My instincts tell me - as well as everything I see while REALLY trying to be objective, is that the radical members of the Islamic faith are flat out evil and that they are an EXTREME threat.

It is my OPINION that they would be trouble whether Israel was an issue or not.

gator
06-09-2008, 09:39 PM
No , I don't think I know as much as you in this area. I'll readily admit that. My instincts tell me - as well as everything I see while REALLY trying to be objective, is that the radical members of the Islamic faith are flat out evil and that they are an EXTREME threat.

It is my OPINION that they would be trouble whether Israel was an issue or not.

See my "plan" above your post. What is wrong with that approach?

Zeus
06-09-2008, 09:54 PM
I really don't see how Israel ceasing to exist would have any effect on U.S unemployment rates.

MrsSmith
06-09-2008, 10:27 PM
I really don't see how Israel ceasing to exist would have any effect on U.S unemployment rates.

Simple, all available men would be in the military, so there would be lots of jobs for the rest of us.

gator
06-10-2008, 06:24 AM
Simple, all available men would be in the military, so there would be lots of jobs for the rest of us.

Why?

Who gives a shit what happens to them? African and Middle East countries rise and fall every year. Big deal.

Unless it significantly affects the price of oil what business is it of us?

Zeus
06-10-2008, 08:21 AM
You can start by quit comparing us to other countries. I give a rats ass about them. I did not say that our economy is "going to hell in a handbasket". But ignoring the problems will not make them go away.

Wasn't long ago a 5.1 % unemployment rate was evidence of the best economy in 50 yrs. Now all the sudden a 5.5 % unemployment rate is considered a sign of the worst economy in 30.Strange thing is even at the current rate of 5.5% unemployment there is still more people employed than when the unemployment rate was 5.1 %

yes there is some uncertainty in the economy but it has more to do with it being an election yr and wether the last round of taxcuts currently due to expire will be allowed to expire or made permanent. The starnge thing about the lefts adversion to the Bush Taxcuts is if allowed to expire the top tier of income tax payers will get a taxcut while the bottom & middle tiers get another largest tax increase in history.

lacarnut
06-10-2008, 11:05 AM
Wasn't long ago a 5.1 % unemployment rate was evidence of the best economy in 50 yrs. Now all the sudden a 5.5 % unemployment rate is considered a sign of the worst economy in 30.Strange thing is even at the current rate of 5.5% unemployment there is still more people employed than when the unemployment rate was 5.1 %

yes there is some uncertainty in the economy but it has more to do with it being an election yr and wether the last round of taxcuts currently due to expire will be allowed to expire or made permanent. The starnge thing about the lefts adversion to the Bush Taxcuts is if allowed to expire the top tier of income tax payers will get a taxcut while the bottom & middle tiers get another largest tax increase in history.

What slays me is that people like L.P. think that 5.5% is a bad unemployment number. Even foolish investors sold off and caused the stock market to go down. The herd mentality is amazing cause many people do not seem to think for themselves.

LogansPapa
06-10-2008, 11:23 AM
What slays me is that people like L.P. think that 5.5% is a bad unemployment number. Even foolish investors sold off and caused the stock market to go down. The herd mentality is amazing cause many people do not seem to think for themselves.

Not at all - unemployment is one thing but the wage of new positions is another. Everyone working at McDonalds does not an economy make. ;)

lacarnut
06-10-2008, 12:08 PM
Not at all - unemployment is one thing but the wage of new positions is another. Everyone working at McDonalds does not an economy make. ;)

I guess you are not aware that their was an increase in wages and productivity recently. BTW, I have never worked at McDonalds and don't know anyone that does. Nothing wrong with starting at the bottom, working hard, getting promoted into management. Only dumb ass liberals think you should start off at 20 bucks an hour with no skills and no education. Is that you? There are plenty of good jobs out there. Tell me about the economy of the 60's and 70's. That's right, you were not in the work force back then. Conclusion, go peddle you bull-shit elsewhere cause like I said you got your ass handed to you with this idiotic news article.

LogansPapa
06-10-2008, 12:23 PM
Conclusion, go peddle you bull-shit elsewhere cause like I said you got your ass handed to you with this idiotic news article.

Well actually I was referring to the manufacturing jobs lost (run those numbers and see what that does for your GWB White House brown-nosing). We can’t maintain an economy with just service jobs - was my point. You have to produce something - something of value. I think they call those things "durable goods"?

lacarnut
06-10-2008, 12:46 PM
Well actually I was referring to the manufacturing jobs lost (run those numbers and see what that does for your GWB White House brown-nosing). We can’t maintain an economy with just service jobs - was my point. You have to produce something - something of value. I think they call those things "durable goods"?

Run the numbers for durable goods exports and see what liberal stupidity is all about. Corporations like Cat. & Deere are making a killing if you have not noticed. Once again your Bush bashing artice does not hold water. Sticking you nose up a liberal's editor's ass does not change those facts.

Zeus
06-10-2008, 12:47 PM
Well actually I was referring to the manufacturing jobs lost (run those numbers and see what that does for your GWB White House brown-nosing). We can’t maintain an economy with just service jobs - was my point. You have to produce something - something of value. I think they call those things "durable goods"?


Again you are mistaken. manufacturing has been on the rise,or had at least been on the rise for the last couple of qtrs. oops I was wrong it's not the last couple of qtrs but the last couple of yrs,my bad.

A Leaner, More Skilled U.S. Manufacturing Workforce (http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/current_issues/ci12-2.pdf) (Pdf)



While the U.S. manufacturing sector has contracted sharply since the early 1980s, employment in high-skill manufacturing occupations has risen by an impressive 37 percent. An nvestigation
of the growth in high-skill manufacturing jobs reveals that virtually all of the nation’s industries have shared in this trend. Moreover,
skill upgrading has occurred in all parts of the country, even those experiencing severe employment losses.



US Manufacturing: Dying ... or Still Going strong (http://http://www.uschina.org/public/documents/2006/09/us-manufacturing.pdf)

LogansPapa
06-10-2008, 12:51 PM
Both of you chumps need to break out the numbers for 'tool and die' manufacturing.:rolleyes:

(Think automotive, metal forming industry, fastener manufacturing and such)

20,000 jobs in earth moving equipment is nice, but it's limited.

LogansPapa
06-10-2008, 01:01 PM
BTW: Over the last 97 months manufacturing has shed 3.7 million jobs.:cool:

lacarnut
06-10-2008, 01:22 PM
Both of you chumps need to break out the numbers for 'tool and die' manufacturing.:rolleyes:

(Think automotive, metal forming industry, fastener manufacturing and such)

20,000 jobs in earth moving equipment is nice, but it's limited.

You mean those union automotive jobs that have been replaced with foreign automotive companies that are non union. Tough shit if you do not like that. The truth is that their cars are better, cheaper and the workers are not forced to donote to the Democratic party.

I am all for American auto companies going to China and foreign companies coming here to build better products at a cheaper price. The big 3's management and the unions are a bunch of stupid, greedy dumbs asses. Even when they import their products back to the USA, their products will be inferior. That's not Bush's fault. Only a turd like you would think so.

LogansPapa
06-10-2008, 01:26 PM
No asshole - I’m referring to the non-union jobs with 10-25 man shops spread across the entire nation that support dozens of other individual’s out in the rest of the world. Do you have any concept of what a ‘job-shop’ is and the implications of those types of jobs going overseas is all about? I would venture, not only no - but fuck no.

lacarnut
06-10-2008, 01:48 PM
No asshole - I’m referring to the non-union jobs with 10-25 man shops spread across the entire nation that support dozens of other individual’s out in the rest of the world. Do you have any concept of what a ‘job-shop’ is and the implications of those types of jobs going overseas is all about? I would venture, not only no - but fuck no.

You keep changing the goal post. Small business have not retracted in growth. It's the large inefficent companies that are laying off like GM. You either need to get off drugs or get your head out of your ass. So go fuck off, asshole..

BTW, what non union 10 to 15 non union company's in the automotive industry or any other industry that has laid off those 3.7 million employees. Start naming them. jerk.

Zeus
06-10-2008, 01:52 PM
No asshole - I’m referring to the non-union jobs with 10-25 man shops spread across the entire nation that support dozens of other individual’s out in the rest of the world. Do you have any concept of what a ‘job-shop’ is and the implications of those types of jobs going overseas is all about? I would venture, not only no - but fuck no.


You really aren't very good at this. Naturally you can point to an Isolated segment of the manufacturing mkt and say see see they lost Jobs. the problem with that is the majority of those jobs were upgraded to higher paying higher skilled jobs and some just simply became outdated. Ya gots to look at the overall picture. The US Economy is a very large and diverse one. Therefore there will always be the constant ebb & flow of Jobs lost here to be replaced by jobs over there. for all the ballyhooing about manufacturing no longer exists in this country it just isn't the truth. manufacturing is at a net gain with Higher skilled higher paying jobs.

LogansPapa
06-10-2008, 01:57 PM
BTW, what non union 10 to 15 non union company's in the automotive industry or any other industry that has laid off those 3.7 million employees. Start naming them. jerk.

Name one 'Grade 8' fastener manufacturer still in the United States.

lacarnut
06-10-2008, 02:08 PM
Name one 'Grade 8' fastener manufacturer still in the United States.

I will admit, I don't know beans about that industry. However, you do not know beans about governmental accounting or auditing. Facts are 5.5% is a great unemployment number especially when students and teachers that sign up for unemployment are counted in that figure. Do you understand how the numbers are compiled? Doomers and gloomers like you that look at the glass as half empty are marred in either stupidity or partisianship .

Zeus
06-10-2008, 02:25 PM
Increases in Productivity Have Caused Job Losses (http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/03/increases-in-productivity-have-caused.html)




1. According to annualBLS data (http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MFGPROD) on manufacturing productivity, there was a 30% increase in productivity from 1993 (before NAFTA passed) to 2005, following a period of flat productivity growth from 1985-1992 (see top chart above, click to enlarge).


2. According to BLS data (http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/DMANEMP?cid=11) on manufacturing employment, there was an increase of almost one million manufacturing jobs in the five-year period following NAFTA (see middle chart above).

3. According to Federal Reserve data, manufacturing output (http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMAN) increased by almost 60% in the period between 1994 and 2005 (see bottom chart above).

Bottom Line: Despite all of the political rhetoric about NAFTA, free trade and globalization causing U.S. job losses in manufacturing, one of the most significant factors in the recent decline of American manufacturing jobs is the significant increase in productivity of U.S. workers. Manufacturing output and productivity in the U.S. are both at all-time highs - we're able to produce more and more output with fewer and fewer workers.

Although some manufacturing jobs are gone forever, we're much better off as a country to be able to get increases in manufactruing output with fewer workers, just like the productivity gains in agriculture that eliminated millions of farming jobs. In the long run, we are much better off with fewer jobs in the farming sector producing an increasing amount of agricultural output, and likewise, we'll be better off in the long run with fewer workers in the manufacturing sector producing an increasing amount of output.

LogansPapa
06-10-2008, 02:39 PM
I will admit, other than what the NTMA website tells me - I do not know beans about governmental accounting or auditing. They tell me, that despite companies like mine investing millions of dollars into new technology - the kids we have to weed through to run our machines are few to choose from.

Our organization produces apprentices in all the machining fields, and after they’re snapped up - nobody wants to work for a living.

Total jobs is one thing. Jobs that make substantial items, other than circuit boards and such shippable jobs, are diminishing and the skilled wages along with them. Service sector jobs can only feed of themselves for so long. Take the tourists out of Florida and the state collapses. NASA and oranges won’t carry that state’s economy.

My point in all of this is that in businesses like mine - mainly aerospace centered, I’ve had to go out and procure hydraulic assembly component repair jobs from the LA/LB Harbor District just to keep from laying off the journeymen I employ. These foreign shipping companies (mainly Chinese) love you when you first bid on their work, but in a very short amount of time and on the upcoming contracts they hammer you for price.

Shops that we’ve worked with for decades have become quite carnivorous and unprofessional. I have no choice but to see everything from a pessimistic perspective - my economy/ass is on the line.

Zeus
06-10-2008, 02:54 PM
I will admit, other than what the NTMA website tells me - I do not know beans about governmental accounting or auditing. They tell me, that despite companies like mine investing millions of dollars into new technology - the kids we have to weed through to run our machines are few to choose from.

Our organization produces apprentices in all the machining fields, and after they’re snapped up - nobody wants to work for a living.

Total jobs is one thing. Jobs that make substantial items, other than circuit boards and such shippable jobs, are diminishing and the skilled wages along with them. Service sector jobs can only feed of themselves for so long. Take the tourists out of Florida and the state collapses. NASA and oranges won’t carry that state’s economy.

My point in all of this is that in businesses like mine - mainly aerospace centered, I’ve had to go out and procure hydraulic assembly component repair jobs from the LA/LB Harbor District just to keep from laying off the journeymen I employ. These foreign shipping companies (mainly Chinese) love you when you first bid on their work, but in a very short amount of time and on the upcoming contracts they hammer you for price.

Shops that we’ve worked with for decades have become quite carnivorous and unprofessional. I have no choice but to see everything from a pessimistic perspective - my economy/ass is on the line.

Well there ya go. Your personal bias has blinded you so you can't see the forest for the trees. not saying you don't have a legite concern just that you see the world as crumbling down around you where it may be you thats doing the crumbling.

Oh and govt accounting practices are like this. If the govt would send you or me to jail for the way we keep our books thats they way they keep theirs :p I jest but it is true a couple yrs ago a company by the name of Enron got raked over the coals for employing govt bookkeeping methods.

LogansPapa
06-10-2008, 02:59 PM
Perhaps you’re right, Zeus - perhaps. But until someone shows me different I’m going to believe a national economy can’t sustain its standard of living if it lacks a vibrant industrial base. I’m talking about honest-to goodness, roll-up-you-sleeves manufacturing.

:cool:

Zeus
06-10-2008, 03:08 PM
Perhaps you’re right, Zeus - perhaps. But until someone shows me different I’m going to believe a national economy can’t sustain its standard of living if it lacks a vibrant industrial base. I’m talking about honest-to goodness, roll-up-you-sleeves manufacturing.

:cool:

Did you read the BLS stats I posted about manufacturing and Jobs and productivity. Not to long ago The US got knocked out of the spot as the worlds leading exporter. Well the US is back in place as the worlds leading exporter and Importer. You just can't pull that off with a crappy economy. certainly the weakened dollar helped the exporting but regardless of the dollar value you can't export what you don't have .

Molon Labe
06-10-2008, 03:16 PM
Perhaps you’re right, Zeus - perhaps. But until someone shows me different I’m going to believe a national economy can’t sustain its standard of living if it lacks a vibrant industrial base. I’m talking about honest-to goodness, roll-up-you-sleeves manufacturing.

:cool:

We are starting to see the effects of that now. Look at the fastest growing economies and that is the one thing they have in common.

Odysseus
06-13-2008, 03:38 PM
You got to be kidding me!
They are no more a democracy than any of the other Middle East theocracies. They are no different than the Muslims theocracies except maybe they kill more people.
They are a brutal apartheid theocracy just like all the other Middle East shit holes.
There are two very stupid reasons the NeoCons give to support Israel and you just used one of them.
1. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East
2. God wants us to support Israel if we want to go to Heaven.
Hmmm... Let's take this one thing at a time. First. tje Apartheid BS:

Arabs who live in Israel have the same rights as Israelis, including voting and holding public office. They have even formed their own political party and hold several seats in the Knesset. How many seats did blacks have in the South African pariliament? None. How many were permitted to vote in national elections? None. How many were permitted to hold public office where they might exercise authority over whites? None. You beginning to get the point?

Now, it's true that Israel is no longer the only democracy in the Middle East, but only because we built one in Iraq. Lebanon used to be a democracy, until Yassir Arafat turned it into a violent hellhole and unleashed the sectarian militias on each other. Other than that, let's see...


Syria: Ba'ath Party is the only legal party. Bashir Assad inherited his position from his father, Hafez Assad, who maintained his control of the country through brutal repression. One example was the destruction of the city of Hama by the Syrian government when it rebelled against his rule. Assad surrounded the town with artillery and levelled it, killing over 20,000 people.
Jordan: Monarchy.
Saudi Arabia: Absolute monarchy/Wahabbi theocracy.
Kuwait: Monarchy
Egypt: President Mubarak took office after the assassination of Anwar Sadat, who took office after the death of Gamal Nasser, who took office in a coup against the previous regime.
Sudan: Military dictatorship
Lybia: Military dictatorship
Lebanon: Anarchy/Syrian puppet state.
Iran: Islamist theocracy. Elections are rigged by vetting of candidates by permanent Council of Guardians, an unelected body that actually governs the country.

So, there you have it. Two democracies in the Middle East, one, our ally, the other, our creation.

As for the "God wants us to support Israel if we want to go to Heaven" nonsense, I've never heard any conservative say that, but I've heard a lot of liberals who claim that we say it.

LogansPapa
06-13-2008, 03:55 PM
So, there you have it. Two democracies in the Middle East, one, our ally, the other, our creation.

Both our creation - the 1st via Churchill’s promise to FDR to ease the president’s guilt for turning the ships away.

Odysseus
06-15-2008, 09:40 PM
Both our creation - the 1st via Churchill’s promise to FDR to ease the president’s guilt for turning the ships away.

Except that both Churchilll and FDR were out of office when the vote came to the UN. Clement Atlee was shedding the empire as fast as he could, and Israel was just one piece of it, or did Churchill and Roosevelt make similar promises to Ghandi for India? Or for that matter, Singapore, Malaysia, Egypt, and the rest of the former British colonies that were cut loose from 1945 on? Your lack of historical knowledge is exceeded only by your ignorance of economics. For example, you mention that the unemployment rate has jumped from 5.1% to 5.5%, but if you'd bothered to do a little digging, you'd see that there's been no corresponding increase in applications for unemployment. Wonder why? Because this happens every year around this time, as school lets out and the workforce temporarily swells with students looking for summer jobs. The unemployment numbers will drop by the same amount in September as they increased, as school opens and those same kids leave their jobs, only then, we won't hear it given anywhere near the emphasis'

gator
06-15-2008, 09:55 PM
Arabs who live in Israel have the same rights as Israelis, including voting and holding public office.

On paper the Blacks in South Africa had the same rights as White South Africans. At least the South Africans would tell you so. I think we all know that was not the case.

The same thing with Blacks in America. On paper there was no apartheid but in practice it was big time.

To deny that the Palestinians are brutalized by the Israelis is major league denial but go ahead and do it if you want. Everybody else does.

The Israelis have always treated the Palestinians like shit because they were living in the land the goddamn Israelis wanted for their massive European immigration.

Why the hell we chose to take the side of the friggin Israelis in that conflict is a mystery to me. Morally we should have taken the side of the oppressed, which have always been the Palestinians.



As for the "God wants us to support Israel if we want to go to Heaven" nonsense, I've never heard any conservative say that, but I've heard a lot of liberals who claim that we say it.

I have heard that scores of times. In almost every thread I have participated in on the Internet some dumbfuck brings up that point. When we restore the old database on CU I can show you the statements.

What really amazes me is why any American would want to spend one red cent to support a brutal apartheid shitass Middle East theocracy like Israel.

LogansPapa
06-15-2008, 10:27 PM
Except that both Churchilll and FDR were out of office when the vote came to the UN.

And FDR was dead when Truman followed through with dropping two atomic weapons. You're talking out your ass - the British had a debt to pay the Americans and Israel was one of them. Time to shut the ol' tit off and make Israel stand on its own. We owe them nothing.

Odysseus
06-16-2008, 05:41 PM
On paper the Blacks in South Africa had the same rights as White South Africans. At least the South Africans would tell you so. I think we all know that was not the case.
The same thing with Blacks in America. On paper there was no apartheid but in practice it was big time.

Uh, no and no. Apartheid divided South Africa into tribal "homelands" in which the tribes had autonomy, but only the white tribes could vote in national elections. This was the law, on paper, and it was meant to ensure that only whites had a hand in the national government. By the same token, segregation was very much enshrined into US law until Brown Vs. BD of Ed. In both places, the actual letter of the law enshrined the racist policies. By contrast, Arabs within Israel hold Israeli citizenship and have the same rights, both on paper and in fact. In fact, the Israelis work extremely hard to incorporate Arabs into their society. For example, Arabic is one of the official languages of Israel, and has to be incorporated into all official signs and documents. One does not see the Apartheid regime in South Africa doing street signs in Swahili, Xhosa or any of the other tribal languages. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/SignsInIsrael.jpg/800px-SignsInIsrael.jpg


To deny that the Palestinians are brutalized by the Israelis is major league denial but go ahead and do it if you want. Everybody else does.
The Israelis have always treated the Palestinians like shit because they were living in the land the goddamn Israelis wanted for their massive European immigration.

You really have no idea of the history of the region, do you? First off, the Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza were only administered by Israel because a combined Arab army of Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis and just about every other Arab state combined to try to eliminate Israel in 1967. Israel fought back and won, and in doing so, ended up having to take responsibility for the Palestinians who were kept in refugee camps since 1948 by indifferent Arab states and the UN, which redefined the status of third generation exiles in order to perpetuate their dependence. Not one Arab state made any attempt to assimilate their fellow Moslems from 1948-1967, despite having expelled about the same number of Jews during the same period. Remember that until 1967, Egypt owned Gaza and Jordan had the west bank, and did nothing to alleviate the poverty of the people there. Israel has repeatedly sought to trade the West Bank and Gaza for permanent peace treaties, but the Arabs have, with one exception, refused to negotiate, and that one exception, Egypt, was willing to take back the Sinai, but not the Gaza strip.


Why the hell we chose to take the side of the friggin Israelis in that conflict is a mystery to me. Morally we should have taken the side of the oppressed, which have always been the Palestinians.

The oppression of the Palestinians began when the Arab states told them to leave Israel in 1948 so that they could have a free hand to destroy the country. Those that left found themselves impoverished and dependent on the UN High Commisioner for Refugees for handouts, while those who remained became a part of the only democracy in the region. It would have ended in 1967, if groups like the PLO hadn't been formed by the Soviets for the purpose of using them as a surrogate against a US ally. The creation of armed terror groups that only attacked western targets was a stroke of evil genius, but make no mistake about it, Arafat and his ilk were no more a popular movement than


I have heard that scores of times. In almost every thread I have participated in on the Internet some dumbfuck brings up that point. When we restore the old database on CU I can show you the statements.

I'd say that there's a difference between what "some dumbf***" brings up on a thread and what "the neocons" give as their reason for supporting Israel.


What really amazes me is why any American would want to spend one red cent to support a brutal apartheid shitass Middle East theocracy like Israel.

What really amazes me is the sheer vitriol that some people bring to the issue of Israel. First, I consider them an ally, not only in that they are a democracy (regardless of what you may think, they have political parties that oppose each other, and power transitions based on elections, rather than the use of force), but because they are fighting the same war that we are, and have been for a long time. Before you try to make the case that we have alienated Islam with out support for Israel, explain to me why the Moslem Barbary Pirates attacked US-flagged ships over a century and a half before Israel existed, or why the Moros fought a Jihad against us in the Philippines half a century before the UN partition vote? For that matter, can you show me a peaceful border anywhere in the world between Islam and anyone else? Thailand has never been a defender of Israel, and yet Al Qaeda has been murdering Buddhists there for the last several years. Why? Not because of anything having to do with Israel, but because of the inherent demand for conquest in Islam. Blaming the Israelis for our problems is intellectually lazy, not to mention pointless. If Israel disappeared tomorrow (and if Ahmedinejad has his way, it will), we would still be fighting a murderous global jihad that seeks to impose Islam on every man, woman and child in the world.


And FDR was dead when Truman followed through with dropping two atomic weapons. You're talking out your ass - the British had a debt to pay the Americans and Israel was one of them. Time to shut the ol' tit off and make Israel stand on its own. We owe them nothing.

You don't know what you're talking about, but that's never stopped you before, so why should now be any different? Atlee wasn't bound by any debt that Churchill incurred. He was from the opposition party and saw his mandate as the dissolution of Britain's colonial empire. That's why he also cut India and the rest of the empire loose. It had nothing to do with any secret deals with Roosevelt, who had been dead for three years by the time the vote came. In fact, the British were extremely pro-Arab and fought against partition. They only gave back the League of Nations mandate when the region became too volatile to manage, but they ensured that as much of their defensive infrastructure was passed on to the Arabs as possible instead of the Jews, including fixed fortifications and weapons.

This isn't about owing Israel anything. This is about supporting an ally in a war against radical Islam, just as they were an ally against the Soviets. If you screw over your allies, then they rapidly lose any incentive to remain allies. As for Truman, the A-bombing of Japan was probably as far removed from the UN partition vote as Chinese smoking habits are from their driving habits, but I suppose that to someone with your, shall we say, "non-linear" thinking, it's about par. Once again, the voices in your head are leading you astray.

LogansPapa
06-16-2008, 06:17 PM
You don't know what you're talking about, but that's never stopped you before, so why should now be any different? Atlee wasn't bound by any debt that Churchill incurred. He was from the opposition party and saw his mandate as the dissolution of Britain's colonial empire. That's why he also cut India and the rest of the empire loose. It had nothing to do with any secret deals with Roosevelt, who had been dead for three years by the time the vote came.

Read a book by Michael Makovsky called "Churchill's Promised Land" and educate yourself.:rolleyes:

Oh - and on the question of "cutting India loose", just rent the movie for a basic education: ;)

CHELMSFORD: What I would like to do is to come to some
compromise over the new civil legis –

GANDHI: If you will excuse me, Your Excellency, it is our
view that matters have gone beyond "legislation."

It is spoken with the cold determination of a man still angry. It
stops Chelmsford in mid-pace.

GANDHI: We think it is time you recognized that you are
masters in someone else's home. (It chills, stiffens; Gandhi proceeds only an iota
softer) Despite the best intentions of the best of you, you must, in the nature of
things, humiliate us to control us. General Dyer is but an extreme example of the
principle. It is time you left.

The British are stunned almost to speechlessness – the
audacity, the impossibility of it – and from Gandhi of all people. The senior civil
servant, Kinnoch, is the first to recover.

KINNOCH: With respect, Mr. Gandhi, without British
administration, this country would be reduced to chaos.

GANDHI (patient, ironic): Mr. Kinnoch, I beg you
to accept that there is no people on earth who would not prefer their own bad government
to the "good" government of an alien power.

BRIGADIER (indignantly, choked): My dear sir
– India is British! We're hardly an alien power!

Gandhi and the others just look at him.

Chelmsford is realist enough to recognize that a faux pas has been
made, and he strives to get the meeting back on the course he intends.

CHELMSFORD: Even if His Majesty could waive all other
considerations, he has a duty to the millions of his Muslim subjects who are a minority in
this realm. And experience has taught that his troops and his administration are essential
in order to keep the peace.

He has deliberately if delicately caught the eye of both Jinnah and
Maulana Azad during this. Gandhi knows the trouble this can cause and he answers more for
those on his side than the Viceroy's.

GANDHI: All nations contain religious minorities. Like
other countries, our will have its problems. (Flat, irrevocable) But they will be
ours – not yours.

Its finality is such that for a moment there is no response at all,
but then the General smiles.

GENERAL: And how do you propose to make them yours? You
don't think we're just going to walk out of India.

His smile flitters cynically on the mouths of the others on his
side.

GANDHI: Yes . . . in the end you will walk out. Because
one hundred thousand Englishmen simply cannot control three hundred fifty million Indians
if the Indians refuse to co-operate. And that is what we intend to achieve –
peaceful, non-violent, non-co-operation.

He looks at them all, then up at Lord Chelmsford behind them.

GANDHI: Until you yourself see the wisdom of leaving .
. . your Excellency.


;)

gator
06-16-2008, 06:29 PM
In fact, the Israelis work extremely hard to incorporate Arabs into their society.

Yea, right. Tell that to a Palestinian.

When I have a little time I will post the links 'splaining to you about how the Israelis treat the Palestinians like shit, including apartheid. I had it on the old CU data base now I have to recreate it. I don't mind doing it since you really don't understand both sides of the conflict. You only chose to believe what the goddamn Israelis wants you to believe.



You really have no idea of the history of the region, do you?


I don't think you know what the fuck you are talking about so I will give you the Cliff Note version.

Palestinians and Jews living together in the Middle East for a long time.

WWII ends and hundreds of thousand European Jews take over the country and establish a new country. Palestinians squeezed out to make room for more immigrants. Israelis kill Palestinians when the Palestinian resist. America gives money to Israel so they can more efficiently kill the Palestinians.



The oppression of the Palestinians began when the Arab states told them to leave Israel in 1948 so that they could have a free hand to destroy the country. Those that left found themselves impoverished and dependent on the UN High Commisioner for Refugees for handouts, while those who remained became a part of the only democracy in the region. It would have ended in 1967, if groups like the PLO hadn't been formed by the Soviets for the purpose of using them as a surrogate against a US ally. The creation of armed terror groups that only attacked western targets was a stroke of evil genius, but make no mistake about it, Arafat and his ilk were no more a popular movement than

This is the kind of bullshit that the Israelis throw out there to cover up taking land away from the Palestinians. You left out a whole of Israel brutality and a whole lot of Palestinian suffering at the hands of the Israelis.



I'd say that there's a difference between what "some dumbf***" brings up on a thread and what "the neocons" give as their reason for supporting Israel.

You certainly did your share of bullshit in this thread.



What really amazes me is the sheer vitriol that some people bring to the issue of Israel

I am pissed because they killed my fellow American and spied on my country. In addition I don't like giving them (or hardly anybody else) my hard earned money. You should be pissed also, for the same reasons.




. First, I consider them an ally,

They are no ally of the US. Never have been. They take a lot and give very little in return. For instance they even made up pay for the after battle reports when they defeated the Syrian Air Force in the 1970s. I could give you many more examples if you like.



not only in that they are a democracy

Who gives a shit? Besides, they are a "democracy" like Iran is democracy.



This is about supporting an ally in a war against radical Islam,

This is where you are really fucked up. You don't have a clue, do you?

The only goddamn reason we are fighting in the Middle East is because of Israel. We have been arming the enemy of the Arabs for 40 years and they have finally decided to kick our butts because of it.

If we hadn't armed Israel to kill Arabs then we wouldn't be fighting over there in the first place and would not need to pay money to the Israelis to help us.

If you don't believe me go and read the reasons why the Arabs punished us by withholding oil in the 1970s. Go read the letters of the 911 hijackers. Go look at the Bin Laden tapes where he gave the reasons for the 911 attack. It is all because we have got ourselves involved in a war that has nothing to do with our own security.

You really need to start being a little more objective. You need to understand that the fate of the Israelis has nothing to do with the security of the US and we are paying dearly for the privilege of making sure that they live high on the hog.

Odysseus
06-20-2008, 02:05 PM
Yea, right. Tell that to a Palestinian.

When I have a little time I will post the links 'splaining to you about how the Israelis treat the Palestinians like shit, including apartheid. I had it on the old CU data base now I have to recreate it. I don't mind doing it since you really don't understand both sides of the conflict. You only chose to believe what the goddamn Israelis wants you to believe.
I don't think you know what the fuck you are talking about so I will give you the Cliff Note version.
Palestinians and Jews living together in the Middle East for a long time
WWII ends and hundreds of thousand European Jews take over the country and establish a new country. Palestinians squeezed out to make room for more immigrants. Israelis kill Palestinians when the Palestinian resist. America gives money to Israel so they can more efficiently kill the Palestinians.
This is the kind of bullshit that the Israelis throw out there to cover up taking land away from the Palestinians. You left out a whole of Israel brutality and a whole lot of Palestinian suffering at the hands of the Israelis.
You certainly did your share of bullshit in this thread.
I am pissed because they killed my fellow American and spied on my country. In addition I don't like giving them (or hardly anybody else) my hard earned money. You should be pissed also, for the same reasons.
They are no ally of the US. Never have been. They take a lot and give very little in return. For instance they even made up pay for the after battle reports when they defeated the Syrian Air Force in the 1970s. I could give you many more examples if you like.
Who gives a shit? Besides, they are a "democracy" like Iran is democracy.
This is where you are really fucked up. You don't have a clue, do you?
The only goddamn reason we are fighting in the Middle East is because of Israel. We have been arming the enemy of the Arabs for 40 years and they have finally decided to kick our butts because of it.
If we hadn't armed Israel to kill Arabs then we wouldn't be fighting over there in the first place and would not need to pay money to the Israelis to help us.
If you don't believe me go and read the reasons why the Arabs punished us by withholding oil in the 1970s. Go read the letters of the 911 hijackers. Go look at the Bin Laden tapes where he gave the reasons for the 911 attack. It is all because we have got ourselves involved in a war that has nothing to do with our own security.
You really need to start being a little more objective. You need to understand that the fate of the Israelis has nothing to do with the security of the US and we are paying dearly for the privilege of making sure that they live high on the hog.

Between the personal attacks, profanity and insane illogic of your post, there isn't a single accurate statement, and you obviously refuse to read anything that corrects your insanely bigoted and ignorant view, so it's not worth bothering to respond, except to say that you have no clue about what you are talking about.

LogansPapa
06-20-2008, 02:16 PM
Between the personal attacks, profanity and insane illogic of your post, there isn't a single accurate statement, and you obviously refuse to read anything that corrects your insanely bigoted and ignorant view, so it's not worth bothering to respond, except to say that you have no clue about what you are talking about.

Sounds like another New South Wales Boo-Hoo song. :p

gator
06-20-2008, 02:27 PM
Between the personal attacks, profanity and insane illogic of your post, there isn't a single accurate statement, and you obviously refuse to read anything that corrects your insanely bigoted and ignorant view, so it's not worth bothering to respond, except to say that you have no clue about what you are talking about.


You have drunk the NeoCon KoolAid about Israel big time. You have no intentions of looking out for the best interest of America, which would include not giving any more of our hard earned money to the Israelis or anybody else in the Middle East. You have not rationally looked at the way the Israelis have brutalized the Palestinians and you complete ignore the attack of the USS Liberty and the spying of Pollard and others.

Don’t tell me about "accuracy" or ignorant views.

The sad thing here is that you NeoCons continue to support Israel and America suffers for it. I wish for once you NeoCons would look after the best interest of your own country first, instead of some sleazy Middle East country like Israel. We would be a whole lot better off.

I feel sorry for you because if you weren't drinking this Israel First Kool Aid you could possibly be a patriot. So sad.

Molon Labe
06-20-2008, 04:26 PM
I've got alot of sympathy for the Jews and Israel in particular...Barely 1% of the world population being subjected to the slaughters they've seen in the last century and all.....so this is tough one for me...
but I have read and learned alot of troubling things over the last several years that make me question whether the Israeli leadership is actullaly giving the Palestinian people their fair due.
I believe alot of our middle east problems are caused more by how Arabs view our hardline stance against anyone that questions the Israeli's more than anything else.

If you listen to what the enemy is writing and saying then you get a pretty good picture of what most arabs think of our interventions overseas. Take a guy like Michael Scheuer for instance..... He was head of the CIA's unit that studied Bin laden and he's very reliable. Yet the MSM and this administratiion ignores him.
I think that more people should start to listen to some of these minority voices....especially if they want to know the enemy and win the GWOT.....if that's even possible the way we are fighting it.

LogansPapa
06-20-2008, 04:51 PM
Other than the ‘Voyage of the Damned’, the United States had zero to do with Jewish deaths in and before WWII.

Regarding what the Arabs/Muslims think of our presence there - T.E. Lawrence explained that 95 years ago and we chose to ignore that wisdom. And for that ignorance, we’ll pay for this latest folly for the next half century - at least.

Osama Bin Ladin was an extremely useful puppet at a critical time and our mistake was assuming that someone who could inspire his forces would also be stupid/compliant to his master. Like Saddam - he simply cut the manipulation strings and wandered off - because we'd used him and didn't care any more.

Let the Star of David fend for himself. He’s all grown up now and we need to stop being intimidated by all the little Jewish grandmothers here in the States.

Molon Labe
06-20-2008, 04:55 PM
Let the Star of David fend for himself. He’s all grown up now and we need to stop being intimidated by all the little Jewish grandmothers here in the States.

And there is actually alot of evidence that our help and money only hurts Israel. We give money to their enemies too, so how much of an ally can we really be?

LogansPapa
06-20-2008, 05:41 PM
And there is actually alot of evidence that our help and money only hurts Israel. We give money to their enemies too, so how much of an ally can we really be?

Well, true - but we can’t let the French have all the arm sales profits in the world. ;)

gator
06-20-2008, 06:46 PM
Well, true - but we can’t let the French have all the arm sales profits in the world. ;)

We don't "sell" the Israeli bastards anything. The defense companies enter into a contract with Israel and the US government guarantees the loan.

At some time in the future some sorry ass pro Israeli Congressman slips an Israeli debt forgiveness clause in some must pass bill. Israelis don't have to pay one red cent and the American taxpayer foots the bill for the weapons to kill Palestinian women and children.

I saw a list of these forgiveness bills a year or so ago. It would make you sick to see the list.

Odysseus
06-20-2008, 07:03 PM
We don't "sell" the Israeli bastards anything. The defense companies enter into a contract with Israel and the US government guarantees the loan.

At some time in the future some sorry ass pro Israeli Congressman slips an Israeli debt forgiveness clause in some must pass bill. Israelis don't have to pay one red cent and the American taxpayer foots the bill for the weapons to kill Palestinian women and children.

I saw a list of these forgiveness bills a year or so ago. It would make you sick to see the list.

Once again, you know not of what you speak. The US cannot "forgive" a loan from a third party. All that the guarantee does is lower the interest rate. And Israel has repaid over $97 Billion in US loans since 1948 out of $100 Billion lent. That's a lot more than any other nation ever has.

Oh, and most of the weapons that kill Palestinian women and children come from Russian and Chinese sources, as the primary killers of Palestinians are, and have always been, Palestinians. The PLO and Hamas have killed more Palestinians than all western governments combined. In fact, just since the last election, Hamas managed to kill just about every Fatah member in Gaza, something that Israel never even tried to do.

Don't let the facts bother you, though. It's not like they'll penetrate that fog of hate around you.

Odysseus
06-20-2008, 07:05 PM
I feel sorry for you because if you weren't drinking this Israel First Kool Aid you could possibly be a patriot. So sad.

Oh, and I am a patriot. I've spent the last twenty-one years of my life wearing my country's uniform and defending her. What I'm not is a paranoid bigot. For you to question my patriotism is despicable.

gator
06-20-2008, 07:51 PM
Oh, and I am a patriot. I've spent the last twenty-one years of my life wearing my country's uniform and defending her. What I'm not is a paranoid bigot. For you to question my patriotism is despicable.

That is what makes it so sad. You have drunk that pro Israel Kool Aid so much that you don't understand that America is more important than Israel. You think our fate is tied to Israel’s fate and that is just plain dumb.

I will question the patriotism of anybody that puts the interest of Israel ahead of the US or thinks it is good for the US to be involved in perpetual war in order to make Israel safe.

If you were a real patriot you would listen to our Founding Fathers and stop interventionism in the Middle East or other places that don’t effect our security.

If you were a real patriot you would be pissed at the goddam Israelis for the Liberty incident and really piised at them for the spying. Until I see outrage from you on these things I will continue to question your patriotism.

cclanofirish
06-20-2008, 07:59 PM
That is what makes it so sad. You have drunk that pro Israel Kool Aid so much that you don't understand that America is more important than Israel. You think our fate is tied to Israel’s fate and that is just plain dumb.

I will question the patriotism of anybody that puts the interest of Israel ahead of the US or thinks it is good for the US to be involved in perpetual war in order to make Israel safe.

If you were a real patriot you would listen to our Founding Fathers and stop interventionism in the Middle East or other places that don’t effect our security.

The Middle East affects, and will continue to effect our national security no matter how hard you try to stick your head up your ass about the issue.

gator
06-20-2008, 08:03 PM
Once again, you know not of what you speak. The US cannot "forgive" a loan from a third party. All that the guarantee does is lower the interest rate. And Israel has repaid over $97 Billion in US loans since 1948 out of $100 Billion lent. That's a lot more than any other nation ever has.

Oh, and most of the weapons that kill Palestinian women and children come from Russian and Chinese sources, as the primary killers of Palestinians are, and have always been, Palestinians. The PLO and Hamas have killed more Palestinians than all western governments combined. In fact, just since the last election, Hamas managed to kill just about every Fatah member in Gaza, something that Israel never even tried to do.

Don't let the facts bother you, though. It's not like they'll penetrate that fog of hate around you.

When I worked for Lockheed Martin they would not sell anything to a foreign country without a loan guarantee. In the case of Israel the US government always guarantees the loans just like they have done on occasion for South Korea and other countries.

I worked on the Patriot Missile program while at LM. We first entered into a contract with Israel and the US government paid off the contract.

As far as killing the Israelis has killed more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis so don’t let the facts get in the way of you enjoying your pro Israel Kool Aid.

The sonofabitches have been declared a terrorist state by most the world. It is because they do so much killing and they do it with American made weapons. Maybe you don’t know things like this but we give the fucking Israelis M-4s, 50 cals, 240 machine guns, F-16s and Apache helicopters and just about any weapon their evil little heart desires. They use these weapons to kill Palestinian women and children and just about anybody else that oppose their little brutal apartheid government.

SarasotaRepub
06-20-2008, 08:35 PM
What's sad is a thread started on the US Unemployment rate has turned into ANOTHER
hate Israel thread.

Molon Labe
06-20-2008, 09:51 PM
You think our fate is tied to Israel’s fate and that is just plain dumb.

I will question the patriotism of anybody that puts the interest of Israel ahead of the US or thinks it is good for the US to be involved in perpetual war in order to make Israel safe.

Some of us remember taking our oath to the Constitution....

Not to the U.N. or Israel or NATO or Neo conservatism, nor any other multilateral organization or collectivist utopian dream of a New world order

Odysseus
06-20-2008, 11:17 PM
When I worked for Lockheed Martin they would not sell anything to a foreign country without a loan guarantee. In the case of Israel the US government always guarantees the loans just like they have done on occasion for South Korea and other countries.
I worked on the Patriot Missile program while at LM. We first entered into a contract with Israel and the US government paid off the contract.

Given your blind, irrational loathing of Israel, you'll pardon me if I don't accept your word of that without a bit of proof.


As far as killing the Israelis has killed more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis so don’t let the facts get in the way of you enjoying your pro Israel Kool Aid.

I'd be glad to hear some facts. So far, all you've done is accuse me of drinking Kool Aid. Take a lesson from Logan's Papa. He's also an ignoramus and an antisemite, but he has a varied vocabulary.


The sonofabitches have been declared a terrorist state by most the world. It is because they do so much killing and they do it with American made weapons. Maybe you don’t know things like this but we give the fucking Israelis M-4s, 50 cals, 240 machine guns, F-16s and Apache helicopters and just about any weapon their evil little heart desires. They use these weapons to kill Palestinian women and children and just about anybody else that oppose their little brutal apartheid government.

Being declared a terrorist state by the likes of Syria, North Korea, Libya and assorted other archipeligoes of failure and despotism doesn't make it so. As for the rest of it, you've apparently bought the line of the Arab states who have been trying to drive Israel into the sea for the last sixty years, without success. They're driven by an irrational honor code that declares that Jews cannot possibly defeat Moslems, and must be put in their place. What's your excuse?


That is what makes it so sad. You have drunk that pro Israel Kool Aid so much that you don't understand that America is more important than Israel. You think our fate is tied to Israel’s fate and that is just plain dumb.

No, I do understand that America is more important than Israel. What you don't understand is that when the Islamists are done murdering Israelis, they won't stop there. Israel didn't drag us into a Middle Eastern war, Islam is at war with the west, and won't stop until we are dead or converted. Israel just happens to be the closest target.


I will question the patriotism of anybody that puts the interest of Israel ahead of the US or thinks it is good for the US to be involved in perpetual war in order to make Israel safe.
If you were a real patriot you would listen to our Founding Fathers and stop interventionism in the Middle East or other places that don’t effect our security.

You know, I try to avoid hitting the bottom in these debates, but to accuse me of being anything less than loyal to my oath, duty and country because I can see the value of a strategic partnership with an ally that you despise for irrational reasons is truly contemptable. You really are a sad little fraction of a man

Odysseus
06-20-2008, 11:17 PM
What's sad is a thread started on the US Unemployment rate has turned into ANOTHER
hate Israel thread.

Tell me about it. How did this clown get to be an admin?

Zathras
06-20-2008, 11:30 PM
What's sad is a thread started on the US Unemployment rate has turned into ANOTHER
hate Israel thread.

Yeah, funny thing is we've heard speach like Gator's before...in the 30's and 40's...in Germany. Just replace "Israel/Israelis" with "Jew/The Jews" and you'll see how Gator truly feels.

gator
06-20-2008, 11:36 PM
Yeah, funny thing is we've heard speach like Gator's before...in the 30's and 40's...in Germany. Just replace "Israel/Israelis" with "Jew/The Jews" and you'll see how Gator truly feels.

I have said many times that I respect Jews. I also respect the Jewish religion. I have nothing against ethnic Jews except i don't like their food.

The country of Israel is out of control and we finance the filthy bastards and we suffer for it.

Usually when I start to get to the point where the NeoCons can't defend Israel they pull out the anti Semitic card. It is kind of like their last refuge.

My father and my uncle fought to free the Jews from the Nazis so you can take your anti Semitic garbage and kiss my red neck ass.

gator
06-20-2008, 11:43 PM
You know, I try to avoid hitting the bottom in these debates, but to accuse me of being anything less than loyal to my oath, duty and country because I can see the value of a strategic partnership with an ally that you despise for irrational reasons is truly contemptable. You really are a sad little fraction of a man


You are the one that won’t condemn the filthy Israeli bastards for attacking the USA and killing 35 brave men and wounding 160 more. You are the one that give the fifthly Israeli bastards a pass on spying on us and selling the information to the Soviets causing the deaths of many operatives and untold intelligence damage, putting America at risk.

You are the one that refuses to understand that America is suffering tremendously because we are backing a brutal apartheid out of control Middle East government that has nothing to do with our own security.

When you start putting the interest of America ahead of the interest of Israel then I will believe that you are a patriot. Until then you can protest all you want but your actions speak louder than your words.

Odysseus
06-21-2008, 12:19 AM
You are the one that won’t condemn the filthy Israeli bastards for attacking the USA and killing 35 brave men and wounding 160 more. You are the one that give the fifthly Israeli bastards a pass on spying on us and selling the information to the Soviets causing the deaths of many operatives and untold intelligence damage, putting America at risk.
You are the one that refuses to understand that America is suffering tremendously because we are backing a brutal apartheid out of control Middle East government that has nothing to do with our own security.
When you start putting the interest of America ahead of the interest of Israel then I will believe that you are a patriot. Until then you can protest all you want but your actions speak louder than your words.

"Filthy Israeli bastards?" No hate there. The USS Liberty was a friendly fire incident. It happens. It sucks, but it happens. As for an Israeli spying for the Soviets, I have no idea what you're talking about, but since you don't appear to either, I shouldn't be surprised. Nature abhors a vacuum, and the one between your ears has been filled with idiotic bigotries and propaganda.

As for my actions speaking louder than my words, I'm an officer in the United States Army and a veteran of combat in Iraq. My actions are in service to this nation and her allies, and if you weren't safely behind your monitor, youi'd never have the guts to say that I wasn't a patriot to my face.

Zathras
06-21-2008, 12:46 AM
I have said many times that I respect Jews. I also respect the Jewish religion. I have nothing against ethnic Jews except i don't like their food.

The country of Israel is out of control and we finance the filthy bastards and we suffer for it.

Usually when I start to get to the point where the NeoCons can't defend Israel they pull out the anti Semitic card. It is kind of like their last refuge.

My father and my uncle fought to free the Jews from the Nazis so you can take your anti Semitic garbage and kiss my red neck ass.

RIIIIGHT. Seems like the only anti-semetic garbage is being posted by you Herr Gator. Don't you have a cross burning to attend or something?

Sonnabend
06-21-2008, 04:37 AM
Aint he a gem?

gator
06-21-2008, 08:26 AM
. The USS Liberty was a friendly fire incident.

There is a tremendous amount of evidence to say that it wasn't a friendly fire incident. When the ex joint chief of staff and the MOH Marine Commandant (and others) did a major independent investigation in 2003 and came to the conclusion that it was done on purpose it is hard to deny that fact.

I know you are aren't in the Navy but if you think the Israelis carried out an extend combined arms attack that went on for almost two hours against a well identified American ship and didn't know what they were doing then you are drinking the pro Israel Kool Aid big time. Especially when we have NSA intercepts from the Israel pilots identifying the ship as American.

The trouble with people like you is that you give the bastards a pass on it. You don’t want to deal with it because if you actually thought about it then you would have to come to the conclusion that the Israelis are scumbags.






As for an Israeli spying for the Soviets, I have no idea what you're talking about,

I didn't say the Israelis spied for the Soviets. You need to learn to read better. An Israel spy (Jonathan Pollard) stole information and gave it to the Israelis. The Israelis admit Pollard was one of their guys. The information was later on sold to the Soviets. This is well documented and if you would stop drinking the pro Israel Kool Aid long enough to actually get your head out of your ass you would know about the tremendous damage your Israelis buddies did to America.

I am starting to see a pattern here. You are so drunk on your pro Israel Kool Aid that you never have bothered to question them or look at the facts.





As for my actions speaking louder than my words, I'm an officer in the United States Army and a veteran of combat in Iraq. My actions are in service to this nation and her allies, and if you weren't safely behind your monitor, youi'd never have the guts to say that I wasn't a patriot to my face

I served in the military during the Liberty incident and saw my fellow NSA brothers murdered by your Israeli friends. Although I don’t have personal knowledge the record pretty well establishes the fact that many politicians and military officers covered up the facts afterwards in order to protect the Israelis. In fact the reason Adm Thomas Moore did his Independent Commission Report in 2003 was to make up for being part of the cover up. Since then other officers have come forward to admit they were wrong. Don’t tell me that being an officer in the US military grants you some kind of immunity from having to answer to putting the interest of Israel ahead of the interest of the US. It was done big time in 1967 and in a small way you are doing some of it now.

I am sure you have served your country honorably and would not question that but it is clear that you are giving the Israelis a pass on doing tremendous damage to our country. You need to reconcile that support with your oath to protect the Constitution because that is a disconnect.

gator
06-21-2008, 09:24 AM
Odysseus

I will make one more personal observation about duty and Israel and then I will drop it for awhile.

I have mentioned before that I was working for the ASA in 1967 when the Liberty was attacked. I was stationed at the 17th ASA Field Station near Kassel Germany.

The messages from the Liberty came in the morning. That afternoon my unit was alerted to provide augmentation to a tactical ASA unit assigned to the 8th Infantry Division. It has been a long time but I think it was the 313th ASA Battalion.

I and several other men were sent to Rhine Main to join the 313th. We were issued full combat gear including live ammo.

The 8th ID was camped out on the tarmac at Rhine Main awaiting deployment orders for Israel.

I was of course with the ASA detachment. Almost everybody in the detachment knew what had happen to the Liberty and we couldn’t believe we were on standby to help the Israelis in case the Arabs started winning the war. It was unbelievable that out job was to protect Israel when they had just murdered American servicemen. Many of us commented in private that we would never fight for Israel. We were really pissed about the Liberty because our fellow NSA brothers were on board.

Now, had we been told to get on the planes then I am sure that we all would have, including me, but it would have been the wrong thing to do. We would have been serving the orders of filthy politicians and weak minded officers that were not looking out after the best interest of America.

Fortunately it all blew over and I went back to my unit without having to make that moral decision. I know I would have gone because I would have followed orders but I would have felt like I betrayed my country for the rest of my life.

Odysseus
06-22-2008, 12:25 AM
Odysseus
I was of course with the ASA detachment. Almost everybody in the detachment knew what had happen to the Liberty and we couldn’t believe we were on standby to help the Israelis in case the Arabs started winning the war. It was unbelievable that out job was to protect Israel when they had just murdered American servicemen. Many of us commented in private that we would never fight for Israel. We were really pissed about the Liberty because our fellow NSA brothers were on board.

Get this through your head. It was a friendly fire incident, not deliberate murder. Claiming that the Israelis deliberately targeted that ship is wingnut BS, on a par with the leftist wackjobs who keep claiming the Bush stole the Florida vote in 2000, or that JFK was killed by the CIA. It's moonbat conspiracy crap, and I don't have time for it, or for relics who keep trying to rewrite history to suit their bigotry.

Grow up.

LogansPapa
06-22-2008, 12:31 AM
Deleted, on warning.

gator
06-22-2008, 09:30 AM
Get this through your head. It was a friendly fire incident, not deliberate murder. Claiming that the Israelis deliberately targeted that ship is wingnut BS, on a par with the leftist wackjobs who keep claiming the Bush stole the Florida vote in 2000, or that JFK was killed by the CIA. It's moonbat conspiracy crap, and I don't have time for it, or for relics who keep trying to rewrite history to suit their bigotry.

Grow up.

Do you want to also tell Admiral Thomas Moorer to "grow up"?


America's HIghest Ranking Naval Officer
Admiral Thomas Moorer (1912 - 2004)
Former Chief of Naval Operations
and
Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

Rejects the Israeli Excuse


MEMORANDUM:
From: Admiral Thomas H. Moorer

Subject: Attack on the USS Liberty June 8, 1967

Date: June 8, 1997

I have never believed that the attack on the USS Liberty was a case of mistaken identity. That is ridiculous. I have flown over the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, thousands of hours, searching for ships and identifying all types of ships at sea. The Liberty was the ugliest, strangest looking ship in the U.S. Navy. As a communications intelligence ship, it was sprouting every kind of antenna. It looked like a lobster with all those projections moving every which way.

Israel knew perfectly well that the ship was American. After all, the Liberty's American flag and markings were in full view in perfect visibility for the Israeli aircraft that overflew the ship eight times over a period of nearly eight hours prior to the attack. I am confident that Israel knew the Liberty could intercept radio messages from all parties and potential parties to the ongoing war, then in its fourth day, and that Israel was preparing to seize the Golan Heights from Syria despite President Johnson's known opposition to such a move. I think they realized that if we learned in advance of their plan, there would be a tremendous amount of negotiating between Tel Aviv and Washington.

And I believe Moshe Dayan concluded that he could prevent Washington from becoming aware of what Israel was up to by destroying the primary source of acquiring that information the USS Liberty. The result was a wanton sneak attack that left 34 American sailors dead and 171 seriously injured. What is so chilling and cold-blooded, of course, is that they could kill as many Americans as they did in confidence that Washington would cooperate in quelling any public outcry.

I have to conclude that it was Israel's intent to sink the Liberty and leave as few survivors as possible. Up to the point where the torpedo boats were sent in, you could speculate on that point. You have to remember that the Liberty was an intelligence ship, not a fighting ship, and its only defensive weapons were a pair of 50-caliber machine guns both aft and on the forecastle. There was little the men could do to fight off the air assault from Israeli jets that pounded the Liberty with bombs, rockets, napalm and machine gun fire for 25 minutes.

With the Liberty riddled with holes, fires burning, and scores of casualties, three Israeli torpedo boats closed in for the kill. The second of three torpedoes ripped through a compartment at amidships, drowning 25 of the men in that section. Then the torpedo boats closed to within 100 feet of the Liberty to continue the attack with cannons and machine guns, resulting in further casualties. It is telling, with respect to whether total annihilation was the intent, that the Liberty crew has reported that the torpedo boats' machine guns also were turned on life rafts that were deployed into the Mediterranean as well as those few on deck that had escaped damage.

As we know now, if the rescue aircraft from U.S. carriers had not been recalled, they would have arrived at the Liberty before the torpedo attack, reducing the death toll by 25. The torpedo boat commanders could not be certain that Sixth Fleet aircraft were not on the way and this might have led to their breaking off the attack after 40 minutes rather than remaining to send the Liberty and its crew of 294 to the bottom. Congress to this day has failed to hold formal hearings for the record on the Liberty affair. This is unprecedented and a national disgrace. I spent hours on the Hill giving testimony after the USS Pueblo, a sister ship to the Liberty, was seized by North Korea. I was asked every imaginable question, including why a carrier in the area failed to dispatch aircraft to aid the Pueblo. In the Liberty case, fighters were put in the air not once, but twice. They were ordered to stand down by Secretary of Defense McNamara and President Johnson for reasons the American public deserves to know.

The captain and crew of the Liberty, rather than being widely acclaimed as the heroes they most certainly are, have been silenced, ignored, honored belatedly and away from the cameras, and denied a history that accurately reflects their ordeal. I was appalled that six of the dead from the Liberty lay under a tombstone at Arlington Cemetery that described them as having "died in the eastern Mediterranean," as if disease rather than Israeli intent had caused their deaths. The Naval Academy failed to record the name of Lt. Stephen Toth in Memorial Hall on the grounds that he had not been killed in battle. I intervened and was able to reverse the apparent idea that dying in a cowardly, one-sided attack by a supposed ally is somehow not the same as being killed by an avowed enemy.

Commander McGonagle's story is the stuff of naval tradition. Badly wounded in the first air attack, lying on the deck and losing blood, he refused any treatment that would take him from his battle station on the bridge. He continued to direct the ship's defense, the control of flooding and fire, and by his own example inspired the survivors to heroic efforts to save the ship. He did not relinquish his post until hours later, after having directed the crippled ship's navigation to a rendezvous with a U.S. destroyer and final arrival in Malta.

I must have gone to the White House 15 times or more to watch the President personally award the Congressional Medal of Honor to Americans of special valor. So it irked the hell out of me when McGonagle's ceremony was relegated to the obscurity of the Washington Navy Yard and the medal was presented by the Secretary of the Navy. This was a back-handed slap. Everyone else received their medal at the White House. President Johnson must have been concerned about the reaction of the Israeli lobby.

By the way please read the last three paragraphs very carefully. You have the same kind of filthy pro Israel mentality that caused the dishonor of the crew of the Liberty. The mentality to give the Isreali bastards a pass on everything they do because you think Israel is more important than your own country.

Another thing, since you claim to be an American Patriot. American servicemen were slaughtered as they were boarding lifeboats by the goddamn Israelis. Regardless of if it was an “accident” or not where is your outrage of that atrocity? How can you give a pass to murderers that killed our men as they were abandoning ship? My God man, the goddamn Nazis didn’t even do that.

Odysseus
06-22-2008, 11:26 PM
Do you want to also tell Admiral Thomas Moorer to "grow up"?

If he's spouting the same drivel that you are, yeah, I do.


By the way please read the last three paragraphs very carefully. You have the same kind of filthy pro Israel mentality that caused the dishonor of the crew of the Liberty. The mentality to give the Isreali bastards a pass on everything they do because you think Israel is more important than your own country.

"Filthy pro Israel mentality?" You really don't seem to realize what a pathetic bag of hate you are.


Another thing, since you claim to be an American Patriot. American servicemen were slaughtered as they were boarding lifeboats by the goddamn Israelis. Regardless of if it was an “accident” or not where is your outrage of that atrocity? How can you give a pass to murderers that killed our men as they were abandoning ship? My God man, the goddamn Nazis didn’t even do that.

That is an out and out lie. The personnel were fired on while on deck, not while boarding lifeboats.

This was a classic friendly fire incident. The Liberty was out of position, it was confused with an Egyptian vessel that was operating in the same waters, and Israel's Central Coastal Command had received several reports that El Arish, on the Sinai coast near the Liberty's position, was being shelled from the sea just before the Liberty was detected on radar. It was a tragic mistake, but under the circumstances, an understandable one. What is not understandable is why bigoted lowlives continue to use this incident to slander an ally.

Sonnabend
06-23-2008, 07:37 AM
Odysseus....Gator is our Polyphemus. :D

gator
06-23-2008, 02:32 PM
If he's spouting the same drivel that you are, yeah, I do.

Wow, that is amazing. You telling the Joint Chief of Staff of the US Armed Forces to “grow up” just because he doesn’t drink the pro Israel Kool Aid? You are really sick, aren't you?

Let me add another name to that list. How about GENERAL RAYMOND G. DAVIS, UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS, (MOH)*FORMER ASSISTANT COMMANDANT OF THE MARINE CORPS

You want to tell the Medal of Honor Awardee to “grow up” also? He signed the Moorer Independent Commission Report. A report that said the Israelis did it on purpose.

OK, how about Then Secretary of State Dean Rusk in a 10 June 1967 diplomatic note to the Israeli Ambassador. Does he need to grow up too?

"But I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous."

It seems to me that you are the one that has your head up your ass.



"Filthy pro Israel mentality?" You really don't seem to realize what a pathetic bag of hate you are.

Anybody that attacks my country and kills my fellow Americans on purpose is filthy in my mind. Evidently you give the Israelis a pass on killing Americans and spying on us.

That is an out and out lie. The personnel were fired on while on deck, not while boarding lifeboats.

Don't get cute with words just to protect the Israelis scumbags:

"Survivors also report that the torpedo boat crews fired on the inflated life boats launched by the crew after the captain gave the order "prepare to abandon ship."[24] This order had to be rescinded because the crew was unable to stand on the main deck without being fired upon and the life rafts were destroyed as they were launched.[25]"


This was a classic friendly fire incident. The Liberty was out of position, it was confused with an Egyptian vessel that was operating in the same waters, and Israel's Central Coastal Command had received several reports that El Arish, on the Sinai coast near the Liberty's position, was being shelled from the sea just before the Liberty was detected on radar. It was a tragic mistake, but under the circumstances, an understandable one. What is not understandable is why bigoted lowlives continue to use this incident to slander an ally

The only classical thing about it was the classic way that dumbshits like you believe the Israeli lies.

"Israeli Pilot Speaks Up

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities.

Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery."




If you would like I could post links to many other facts about the incident and the Israeli lies and the coverup but I suspect you are not interested in hearing the truth, are you?


I have a question. I have discovered that the morons that believe the Israeli bullshit usually fall into one of the three categories:

Christians who think they will go to Hell unless they support Israel because the Bible tells them to.

American Jews whose loyalty is to Israel and not to America.

NeoCons who like the idea of perpetual war in the Middle East and think it is cool that the Israelis are killing Arabs.

My question; which group do you fall in?

Troll
06-23-2008, 05:12 PM
I have an honest question for everyone here that thinks that the mere mention of the USS Liberty is tantamount to Holocaust denial:

Has it not dawned on you that you lose this debate every time it comes up?

This reflexive labelling of anyone who criticizes Israel as an anti-Semite makes no sense. I can curse China, North Korea, and Syria, but nobody calls me anti-Buddhist, anti-Confucianist or anti-Muslim. With respect, this is how liberals debate. When they don't know what to call something, they call it 'racist'. "Al Sharpton is an idiot." "Racist!"

Why is it such a non-sequitur for Gator to say "I hate Israel, but I don't hate Jews"?

biccat
06-23-2008, 05:20 PM
Question:

If it was not a friendly fire incident, what was the motivation for Israel to attack the USS Liberty?

Further, do you believe that the Marines in Haditha killed soldiers in cold blood? Sure the 'official story' says that it was a legitimate exercise of force, but a former Navy Colonel and recipient of the Navy Distinguished Medal, two Purple Hearts, and Bronze Star says otherwise. Who should we believe?

gator
06-23-2008, 05:34 PM
Question:

If it was not a friendly fire incident, what was the motivation for Israel to attack the USS Liberty?

Nobody knows for sure because the goddamn pieces of shit Iraelis never came clean on it.

Look at the letter from Adm Moorer above. He speculates on a reason.




Further, do you believe that the Marines in Haditha killed soldiers in cold blood? Sure the 'official story' says that it was a legitimate exercise of force, but a former Navy Colonel and recipient of the Navy Distinguished Medal, two Purple Hearts, and Bronze Star says otherwise. Who should we believe?

There are times when official versions are true and times when they are not.

As far as the Liberty incident goes the Moorer Independent Commision looked into the subject and here are the findings:


Findings of the Independent Commission of Inquiry
into the Israeli Attack on USS Liberty,
the Recall of Military Rescue Support Aircraft
while the Ship was Under Attack, and the
Subsequent Cover-up by the United States Government


CAPITOL HILL, WASHINGTON, D.C.
OCTOBER 22, 2003

ADMIRAL THOMAS H. MOORER, UNITED STATES NAVY, (RET.)
FORMER CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF

GENERAL RAYMOND G. DAVIS, UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS, (MOH)*
FORMER ASSISTANT COMMANDANT OF THE MARINE CORPS

REAR ADMIRAL MERLIN STARING, UNITED STATES NAVY, (RET.)
FORMER JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL OF THE NAVY HH

AMBASSADOR JAMES AKINS, (RET.)
FORMER UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO SAUDI ARABIA


Chief Attorney of the 1967 Court of Inquiry
Captain Boston's Affidavit
Commonly Asked Questions about USS Liberty
Who are the Commissioners of this Independent Investigation?
We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel�s attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following: **

1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world�s most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 172 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);

2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;

3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty�s firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty�s life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel�s attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;

6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;

7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic efforts of the ship�s Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened with �court-martial, imprisonment or worse� if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;

8. That due to the influence of Israel�s powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;

9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack;

10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy�s 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;

11. That the truth about Israel�s attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace;

12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel�s interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States.

WHEREUPON, we, the undersigned, in order to fulfill our duty to the brave crew of USS Liberty and to all Americans who are asked to serve in our Armed Forces, hereby call upon the Department of the Navy, the Congress of the United States and the American people to immediately take the following actions:

FIRST: That a new Court of Inquiry be convened by the Department of the Navy, operating with Congressional oversight, to take public testimony from surviving crewmembers; and to thoroughly investigate the circumstances of the attack on the USS Liberty, with full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and the military intelligence services, and to determine Israel�s possible motive in launching said attack on a U.S. naval vessel;

SECOND: That every appropriate committee of the Congress of the United States investigate the actions of the White House and Defense Department that prevented the rescue of the USS Liberty, thereafter threatened her surviving officers and men if they exposed the truth, and covered up the true circumstances of the attack from the American people; and

THIRD: That the eighth day of June of every year be proclaimed to be hereafter known as

USS LIBERTY REMEMBRANCE DAY, in order to commemorate USS Liberty�s heroic crew; and to educate the American people of the danger to our national security inherent in any passionate attachment of our elected officials for any foreign nation.

We, the undersigned, hereby affix our hands and seals, this 22nd day of October, 2003.

Thomas H. Moorer
Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff


General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, USMC, MOH*


Merlin Staring
Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret.,
Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy,


James Akins
Ambassador James Akins, Ret.,
Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia,

biccat
06-23-2008, 05:44 PM
Nobody knows for sure because the goddamn pieces of shit Iraelis never came clean on it.
I look at the interests, and unless the Israeli commanders were batshit insane, there's no reason to attack a United States vessel (at least with marked vehicles). When is the last time that identified foreign fighters initiated an attack on America? World War II?

I can't imagine any reasoning that would justify an attack by one of our allies against our own forces, and then that ally calling off the attack.


There are times when official versions are true and times when they are not.
OK, so anti-Israel stories are OK, while Haditha-type stories aren't OK. Check.

gator
06-23-2008, 06:11 PM
OK, so anti-Israel stories are OK, while Haditha-type stories aren't OK. Check.

You have to make up your own mind on that.

Odysseus
06-23-2008, 08:13 PM
Nobody knows for sure because the goddamn pieces of shit Iraelis never came clean on it.

Not "the Israelis," mind you, but the "goddamn pieces of shit Iraelis." Sounds like they're guilty until proven innocent.


There are times when official versions are true and times when they are not.

They're true when they reinforce your bigoted idiocy, and not true when they don't. Got it. Just out of curiosity, do you believe that the Israelis had anything to do with the JFK assassination? 9/11? Elvis' death? Just wondering...


As far as the Liberty incident goes the Moorer Independent Commision looked into the subject and here are the findings:

Okay, that's one "Independent Commission" against ten US investigations and three Israeli investigations, all of which came to the opposite conclusion. There's an old joke about how lawyers operate. If the evidence is on your side, pound on the evidence. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither the law nor evidence are on your side, pound on the table.

But, let's play your game for the moment. Let's say that, for the sake of argument, the "goddamn pieces of shit Iraelis" had intended to destroy the Liberty and prevent it from doing whatever it was that you think would have done more damage to Israel than a horrific friendly fire incident against their most important ally would have done, I have just one question. Why not sink the vessel with all hands and then claim that it was an accident, with no one left alive to rebut the issue? What is the logic of damaging the ship, but not sinking it? Why, when the Liberty was completely defenseless and at the mercy of a superior force, did the Israelis stop?

Molon Labe
06-23-2008, 08:29 PM
I have an honest question for everyone here that thinks that the mere mention of the USS Liberty is tantamount to Holocaust denial:

Has it not dawned on you that you lose this debate every time it comes up?

This reflexive labelling of anyone who criticizes Israel as an anti-Semite makes no sense. I can curse China, North Korea, and Syria, but nobody calls me anti-Buddhist, anti-Confucianist or anti-Muslim. With respect, this is how liberals debate. When they don't know what to call something, they call it 'racist'. "Al Sharpton is an idiot." "Racist!"

Why is it such a non-sequitur for Gator to say "I hate Israel, but I don't hate Jews"?

That's a really great observation. And a fair question. It's seems to be a tactic people use who think you shouldn't question conventional wisdom. You're not supposed to criticize or question anything that upsets their rosy world view..... beyond what they've been taught in school or by the MSM.

Reminds me of my buddy recently at the state's Republican convention...He was booing the Senatoral candidate we elected because he is a RINO and can't win against the Democrat...., and an old lady said "that's not very conservative". As if questioning anything or dissent is somehow foreign to Republicans. I guess towing the status quo is her M.O. To hell with her.

gator
06-23-2008, 09:19 PM
Okay, that's one "Independent Commission" against ten US investigations and three Israeli investigations, all of which came to the opposite conclusion.

There has been no investigation by Congress, just the LBJ cover up.


"10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy�s 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack";

Check out this thread I posted about Boston. He pretty well blew the lid on the cover ups.

http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?p=8916#post8916

I don't trust the goddamn pieces of shit israelis to tell the truth. They aren't exactly known for the telling the truth. They gambled that LBJ would not go to war and they called it right.



But, let's play your game for the moment. Let's say that, for the sake of argument, the "goddamn pieces of shit Iraelis" had intended to destroy the Liberty and prevent it from doing whatever it was that you think would have done more damage to Israel than a horrific friendly fire incident against their most important ally would have done, I have just one question. Why not sink the vessel with all hands and then claim that it was an accident, with no one left alive to rebut the issue? What is the logic of damaging the ship, but not sinking it?

The assholes did everything they could to sink the ship but the bravery of the crew and the herotic actions of Captain William L. McGonagle saved the ship. McGonagle was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for his actions.

Of course LBJ did not have the balls to give MCGonagle the MOH in a White House cremony because he did not want to upset his "little buddies". His "little buddies" were more important to him than an American hero. Kind of like you.



Why, when the Liberty was completely defenseless and at the mercy of a superior force, did the Israelis stop?


I mentioned before that I was stationed in Europe the time of the Liberty incident. I was with the ASA, which did the same job on land that the Liberty did at sea.

We were stationed right on the Fluda Gap over looking the 5K zone. We were within 5K of the Third Soviet Shock Army. A force of 900,000 enemy soldiers with enough hardware to overrun Europe in about three days. We would have been the first casualties of WWIII had the ballon gone up.

The entire armament for the Field Station consisted of a few M-14s, a few .45s and a few cases of ammo. That is what we were given to fight the Soviet Third Shock Army.

I am not the right person to ask why the US Army did not provide better weapons for troops stationed on the edge. I would like to have seen an armored division next to us.

The USS Liberty was even better armed than we were because it had a couple of .50 cals.

I suspect the crew of the Liberty felt safe because they were under the protection of the USS Saratoga and USS America. However, that didn’t do any good when LBJ called back the planes because he didn’t want to cause trouble for his “little buddies”.

The Israelis were notified ahead of time that the Liberty was nearby. The day before the attack there were several over flights by the Israelis and NSA intercepts recorded that the Israelis had properly identified the ship.

Odysseus
06-23-2008, 09:37 PM
I have an honest question for everyone here that thinks that the mere mention of the USS Liberty is tantamount to Holocaust denial:
Has it not dawned on you that you lose this debate every time it comes up?
This reflexive labelling of anyone who criticizes Israel as an anti-Semite makes no sense. I can curse China, North Korea, and Syria, but nobody calls me anti-Buddhist, anti-Confucianist or anti-Muslim. With respect, this is how liberals debate. When they don't know what to call something, they call it 'racist'. "Al Sharpton is an idiot." "Racist!"
Why is it such a non-sequitur for Gator to say "I hate Israel, but I don't hate Jews"?

Okay, let's use the same phrases that Gator uses to describe Israelis and see if they sound like bigoted rants when applied to others:


"goddamn pieces of shit Chinese"
"filthy Korean bastards"
"So what if he wipes Syria off them off the face of the earth? What is it to you as an American? There are always people dying over there. Millions of Christians are dying in Africa as I speak and it is not effecting us very much, is it?"

Any questions?

One of the things that sucks about the left is that they accuse everyone who disagrees with them of being a racist, but that doesn't mean that there aren't genuinely bigoted jackasses in the world. Gator is the proof of that. The USS Liberty isn't the reason that he hates Israel, it's the excuse. That's why he repeats Arab propaganda about Israel forcing out Palestinians in 1948, when the truth is that the Arab governments told them to leave so that they would have a free hand in exterminating Jews, or that the Arab governments refused to assimilate the Palestinian refugees after 1948, even though they expelled an equal number of Jews, which Israel did assimilate. He has a callous indifference to the slaughter of Israelis by Iran, but is incensed by claims of Palestinian suffering, which he doesn't simply exaggerate, but out and out lies about.

If Gator isn't an anti-semitic idiot, he's doing a great impression of one.

Troll
06-23-2008, 10:16 PM
Okay, let's use the same phrases that Gator uses to describe Israelis and see if they sound like bigoted rants when applied to others:

"goddamn pieces of shit Chinese"
"filthy Korean bastards"
"So what if he wipes Syria off them off the face of the earth? What is it to you as an American? There are always people dying over there. Millions of Christians are dying in Africa as I speak and it is not effecting us very much, is it?"

Any questions?

With respect sir, I still don't think it fits. The language may be harsh, but I don't label it anti-Semitism. What I'm saying is if we make the same exception for China, Korea and Syria that we do for Israel, those phrases would be anti-Confucianist, anti-Buddhist and anti-Muslim. But of course, I think if Gator (or any other CU-er) made those statements above, I don't think 90% of us would bat an eye.

Put yourself in Gator's shoes for just a second. Rightly or wrongly, he believes that the Israelis attacked the USS Liberty in full knowledge of it being a United States vessel. Rightly or wrongly, he believes that we are funnelling an unjustifiable amount of our foreign aid to Israel. Rightly or wrongly, he believes that the Israeli government is guilty of espionage against the US. So if we take as a given he believes these things, he's just calling a spade a spade. If Japan had attacked the Liberty that day and we were still giving them millions of dollars a year in foreign aid, and they had the second-most powerful political lobby in the country, I'm sure that he'd be railing against the "filthy Japanese" and nobody would accuse him of being anti-Shinto.

Maybe you're right and he is just a Jew hater, but this just seems to me to be a constant failing of otherwise good conservatives. You just can't get away with calling everyone that doesn't like Israel an anti-Semite. I've seen with my own eyes Gator banning the people that show up here to Jew bash. And honestly, if he was a Jew hater, why not just say so? What's he afraid of? Getting banned? Losing a few members?

gator
06-23-2008, 10:20 PM
The USS Liberty isn't the reason that he hates Israel, it's the excuse. That's why he repeats Arab propaganda about Israel forcing out Palestinians in 1948, when the truth is that the Arab governments told them to leave so that they would have a free hand in exterminating Jews, or that the Arab governments refused to assimilate the Palestinian refugees after 1948, even though they expelled an equal number of Jews, which Israel did assimilate. He has a callous indifference to the slaughter of Israelis by Iran, but is incensed by claims of Palestinian suffering, which he doesn't simply exaggerate, but out and out lies about.

If Gator isn't an anti-semitic idiot, he's doing a great impression of one.

You have not paid attention to anything I said.

I don't like the country of Israel for the following reasons:

1. They attacked my country and killed my fellow Americans and there is significant and credible evidence that they did it on purpose..

2. They spied on my country, which cause tremendous damage to my country.

3. They have bribed our elected officials to maintain a perpetual war for their security that has nothing to do with our security.

4. They are brutal apartheid country that has been declared a terrorists state by most of the rest of the world.

5. They have treated the Palestinians like shit for the past 50 years and that is immoral.

Now you show me which one of those reasons above has anything to do with religion or ethnicity.

You have not answered my question so I will ask it again:

I have a question. I have discovered that the morons that believe the Israeli bullshit usually fall into one of the three categories:

Christians who think they will go to Hell unless they support Israel because the Bible tells them to.

American Jews whose loyalty is to Israel and not to America.

NeoCons who like the idea of perpetual war in the Middle East and think it is cool that the Israelis are killing Arabs.

My question; which group do you fall in?

Odysseus
06-24-2008, 12:22 AM
You have not paid attention to anything I said.

I don't like the country of Israel for the following reasons:
1. They attacked my country and killed my fellow Americans and there is significant and credible evidence that they did it on purpose..
2. They spied on my country, which cause tremendous damage to my country.
3. They have bribed our elected officials to maintain a perpetual war for their security that has nothing to do with our security.
4. They are brutal apartheid country that has been declared a terrorists state by most of the rest of the world.
5. They have treated the Palestinians like shit for the past 50 years and that is immoral.
Now you show me which one of those reasons above has anything to do with religion or ethnicity.
You have not answered my question so I will ask it again:
I have a question. I have discovered that the morons that believe the Israeli bullshit usually fall into one of the three categories:
Christians who think they will go to Hell unless they support Israel because the Bible tells them to.
American Jews whose loyalty is to Israel and not to America.
NeoCons who like the idea of perpetual war in the Middle East and think it is cool that the Israelis are killing Arabs.
My question; which group do you fall in?

Not the same group that you fall into. Why don't you and LogansPapa go off and form Antisemite-underground and let the conservative go back to planning Obama's defeat?

gator
06-24-2008, 07:32 AM
Not the same group that you fall into. Why don't you and LogansPapa go off and form Antisemite-underground and let the conservative go back to planning Obama's defeat?

Real Conservatives don't support countries that attack America.

Real Conservatives don't support countries that spy on America and then sell the information to the Soviets to make a profit.

Real Conservatives know that we are running a deficit and we shouldn't borrow money from the Chinese to give to scumbag Middle East countries.

Real Conservatives put the interest of America ahead of the interest of a country that has been declared a terrorist state by most the world.

Real Conservatives believe in non intervention of other countries.

Real Conservatives want justice for the crewmembers of a ship that has been attacked by another country.

Real Conservatives have the moral foundation not to support a country that murders women and children, steals land and takes away basic human dignity from innocent people.

Real Conservatives don’t want perpetual war just to insure the security of a country that is quite capable of providing their own security because they have one of the strongest economies in the world.

Real Conservatives understand the warning of our Founding Fathers that we should not be involved in foreign entanglements when our own security is not at stake.

Real Conservatives love the Constitution more than they love the money that the pro Israel lobby doles out to politicians.

Real Conservatives love America more than Israel.

The problem with you is that you aren’t a real Conservative. You are a NewConservative that does not understand that the support of Israel is causing a great deal of damage to the US.

NeoCons like you give real Conservatives a bad name. The screw ups of the NeoCons are the reason that a Socialist like Obama has a chance of winning the election. Your big government and interventionist policies are the reason real Conservatives have had enough of Liberals and NeoCon politics.

You have run away from my question twice so I will ask a third time:

I have a question. I have discovered that the morons that believe the Israeli bullshit usually fall into one of the three categories:

Christians who think they will go to Hell unless they support Israel because the Bible tells them to.

American Jews whose loyalty is to Israel and not to America.

NeoCons who like the idea of perpetual war in the Middle East and think it is cool that the Israelis are killing Arabs.

My question; which group do you fall in?

Sonnabend
06-24-2008, 07:50 AM
http://www.celsias.com/blog/images/flogging_dead_horse.jpg

Odysseus
06-24-2008, 02:01 PM
I have a question. I have discovered that the morons that believe the Israeli bullshit usually fall into one of the three categories:
Christians who think they will go to Hell unless they support Israel because the Bible tells them to.
American Jews whose loyalty is to Israel and not to America.
NeoCons who like the idea of perpetual war in the Middle East and think it is cool that the Israelis are killing Arabs.
My question; which group do you fall in?

I've never denied being Jewish, but I reject the despicable statement that I am loyal to a foreign country over the United States.

However, in my experience, morons who routinely parrot the worst anti-Israeli propaganda tend to fall into three categories, as well:

Paranoid conspiracy mongers who blame Jews for all of the ills of the world (These would be your basic KKK, Neo-Nazi or others of that ilk).
Shills for the Arab lobbies (pretty much the entire State Dept.)
Ignorant radical fringe types (left or right) who think that attacking Israel is the way to solidarity with "oppressed" peoples, or somehow makes them more than just poseurs
.

So far, you strike me as a member in good standing of the first group.

Odysseus
06-24-2008, 02:01 PM
http://www.celsias.com/blog/images/flogging_dead_horse.jpg

I know which end of the horse Gator is... :D

gator
06-24-2008, 02:15 PM
I've never denied being Jewish, but I reject the despicable statement that I am loyal to a foreign country over the United States.

However, in my experience, morons who routinely parrot the worst anti-Israeli propaganda tend to fall into three categories, as well:

Paranoid conspiracy mongers who blame Jews for all of the ills of the world (These would be your basic KKK, Neo-Nazi or others of that ilk).
Shills for the Arab lobbies (pretty much the entire State Dept.)
Ignorant radical fringe types (left or right) who think that attacking Israel is the way to solidarity with "oppressed" peoples, or somehow makes them more than just poseurs
.

So far, you strike me as a member in good standing of the first group.

I don't blame Jews for anything. In fact I have respect for them and have said so many times. The worse thing I will say about them is that I don't like their ethnic cuisine but then I don't like a lot of ethnic cuisines.

OK, now I understand what group you fall into. That explains a lot. That explains why you ignore the evidence on the Liberty and you think it is in the best interest of America to guarantee the security of Israel.

I am wasting my time trying to 'splain things to you because you have no intentions of looking at it reasonably. You have an agenda that transcends your loyalty to America so you will never get it.

That is really sad.

LogansPapa
06-24-2008, 02:17 PM
You have an agenda that transcends your loyalty to America so you will never get it.



:eek:

gator
06-24-2008, 02:21 PM
You have an agenda that transcends your loyalty to America so you will never get it.



:eek:

Hey, some stupid fundamentalist Christians are the same way. They think God is going to send them to Hell if they don't support modern day Israel.

Friggin morons.

biccat
06-24-2008, 02:40 PM
OK, now I understand what group you fall into. That explains a lot. That explains why you ignore the evidence on the Liberty and you think it is in the best interest of America to guarantee the security of Israel.
Why do you assume that everyone who rejects your account of the USS Liberty is ignoring the facts? I read your facts, and reached the conclusion that the attack on the USS Liberty was a friendly fire incident, for which the Israelis almost immediately apologized.

In fact, most people believe the 'friendly fire' account of the attack, and only a few on the fringe believe that there was any animosity in the incident.

LogansPapa
06-24-2008, 03:02 PM
18 pages and going strong. :D

gator
06-24-2008, 03:07 PM
Why do you assume that everyone who rejects your account of the USS Liberty is ignoring the facts? I read your facts, and reached the conclusion that the attack on the USS Liberty was a friendly fire incident, for which the Israelis almost immediately apologized.

In fact, most people believe the 'friendly fire' account of the attack, and only a few on the fringe believe that there was any animosity in the incident.

You can believe whatever you want to believe.

If you want to believe that the Israeli Navy and Air Force was so incompetent to mistakenly carry out a combined arms attack against a well identified American ship operating in International waters after doing several fly overs then go ahead.

Every once in awhile I like to remind people that Israel is not our friend. If you think otherwise then good for you. We wouldn’t be giving them our money if it weren’t for people like you. You are doing a great service to Israel by thinking the way you do so God Bless you.

I have exposed Odysseus's real agenda and the reason he will not objectively look at the facts so there is not much more I can do for now. His loyalites lies elsewhere and there isn't much anybody can say or do that will change him.

I think I am done with this topic for now.

Odysseus
06-24-2008, 03:40 PM
You can believe whatever you want to believe.
If you want to believe that the Israeli Navy and Air Force was so incompetent to mistakenly carry out a combined arms attack against a well identified American ship operating in International waters after doing several fly overs then go ahead.
Every once in awhile I like to remind people that Israel is not our friend. If you think otherwise then good for you. We wouldn’t be giving them our money if it weren’t for people like you. You are doing a great service to Israel by thinking the way you do so God Bless you.

We have the finest military ever fielded by any nation in the history of warfare, with the most sophisticated tools ever conceived, and we still have blue on blue incidents. During the first Gulf War, several British APCs were destroyed by US aircraft that were flying a lot slower than the Israeli fighters, and a US armor unit actually lit up its own Bradleys. It happens. But only in the fevered imaginations of paranoid bigots are these incidents deliberate.


OK, now I understand what group you fall into. That explains a lot. That explains why you ignore the evidence on the Liberty and you think it is in the best interest of America to guarantee the security of Israel.
I am wasting my time trying to 'splain things to you because you have no intentions of looking at it reasonably. You have an agenda that transcends your loyalty to America so you will never get it...

..I have exposed Odysseus's real agenda and the reason he will not objectively look at the facts so there is not much more I can do for now. His loyalites lies elsewhere and there isn't much anybody can say or do that will change him.

These are despicable lies. My oath is to the United States, not Israel. For you to impugn my patriotism because of my religious background is truly contemptible. I don't ignore the evidence, I draw the obvious conclusions from it, which is that it was a tragic accident. If Israel had wanted to destroy the Liberty, they'd have sunk it with all hands. Why stop during the attack? That is the question that you refuse to answer, because it destroys your paranoid theory.


I think I am done with this topic for now.

Would that you were. You won't be done with this topic as long as an Israeli draws breath. You'll scream bloody murder every time a terrorist is killed, and blame the victims for having defended themselves. Winston Churchill had a great definition of a fanatic, "someone who won't change his mind and won't change the subject."

biccat
06-24-2008, 03:45 PM
Every once in awhile I like to remind people that Israel is not our friend. If you think otherwise then good for you. We wouldn’t be giving them our money if it weren’t for people like you. You are doing a great service to Israel by thinking the way you do so God Bless you.
I would be insulted that you are calling me a shill for the Israelis, but I actually think its a redeeming quality to be insulted by an ethnic bigot such as yourself. Your support for the Palestinian terrorists speaks volumes. If Israel is not our friend and we should not support them, then by what logic do you extend a hand of friendship to our enemies in the Middle East?

The Palestinian terrorists, elected by the 'Palestinian people' (more specifically outcasts driven from other Middle Eastern nations to provide problems for the Jews), have not just killed Israeli civilians. They have killed Americans, Christians, religious and ethnic Jews, other Muslims, and just about anyone who refused to bow to their demands (basically the demands of socialists everywhere - take from you and give to me).

Furthermore, any country calling for the destruction of another and the wholesale massacre of its people should not be tolerated, whether the target is our ally or not. Your endorsement of Iran's promise to destroy Israel is unbelievable, and evidences your support for another modern Jewish genocide. But in the end, you don't care about the Jews who will die in Israel, because you think that appeasing the Islamic terrorists who run the Middle East will end when we are no longer economically linked to that region. That as soon as Tehran develops a nuclear weapon and incinerates Israel, they will put away their weapons and start extolling the virtues of civilized society.

I don't believe that. I think that Israel is an important ally and stopgap against Muslim aggression outside of the Middle East. I think that it is in our interests to support Democracy around the world and stop the spread of socialism and communism.

Of course, being the gullible fool that I am, I also believe that 9/11 was done by Islamic terrorists and not the US government. I believe that the event in Roswell, NM was not of extraterrestrial origin. I believe that the United States actually did land on the moon. In fact, I believe a lot of things that have been 'proven' by conspiracy theorists.

I suppose that means I'm in the bag for the anti-Bigfoot lobby as well. :rolleyes:

gator
06-24-2008, 04:12 PM
I would be insulted that you are calling me a shill for the Israelis, but I actually think its a redeeming quality to be insulted by an ethnic bigot such as yourself. Your support for the Palestinian terrorists speaks volumes. If Israel is not our friend and we should not support them, then by what logic do you extend a hand of friendship to our enemies in the Middle East?

The Palestinian terrorists, elected by the 'Palestinian people' (more specifically outcasts driven from other Middle Eastern nations to provide problems for the Jews), have not just killed Israeli civilians. They have killed Americans, Christians, religious and ethnic Jews, other Muslims, and just about anyone who refused to bow to their demands (basically the demands of socialists everywhere - take from you and give to me).

Furthermore, any country calling for the destruction of another and the wholesale massacre of its people should not be tolerated, whether the target is our ally or not. Your endorsement of Iran's promise to destroy Israel is unbelievable, and evidences your support for another modern Jewish genocide. But in the end, you don't care about the Jews who will die in Israel, because you think that appeasing the Islamic terrorists who run the Middle East will end when we are no longer economically linked to that region. That as soon as Tehran develops a nuclear weapon and incinerates Israel, they will put away their weapons and start extolling the virtues of civilized society.

I don't believe that. I think that Israel is an important ally and stopgap against Muslim aggression outside of the Middle East. I think that it is in our interests to support Democracy around the world and stop the spread of socialism and communism.

Of course, being the gullible fool that I am, I also believe that 9/11 was done by Islamic terrorists and not the US government. I believe that the event in Roswell, NM was not of extraterrestrial origin. I believe that the United States actually did land on the moon. In fact, I believe a lot of things that have been 'proven' by conspiracy theorists.

I suppose that means I'm in the bag for the anti-Bigfoot lobby as well. :rolleyes:

1. The Israel bastards created the Palestinian terrorist by brutalizing Palestinians for 50 years. One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

2. The Israelis have killed untold numbers of Palestinian women and children, who were non combatants.

3. The Israeli bastards have killed and brutalized Palestinian Christians along side Palestinian Muslims.

4. The fight between Palestinians and Israel is not America’s fight.

5. Since the Palestinians are the oppressed the moral thing is for Americans is to side with them instead of giving weapons and money to the Israelis to use to kill the Palestinians, however the best thing to do is stay out of the fight and not side with anybody.

6. Our Founding Fathers told us not go meddling in the affairs of other countries when our security is not at stake.

7. We are running a deficit and we have high taxation and we shouldn’t be giving money to any foreign country, no less a brutal apartheid government that has been declared a terrorist state by most of the world.

You can respond any way you want. I am out of here.

LogansPapa
06-24-2008, 04:27 PM
Hey, some stupid fundamentalist Christians are the same way. They think God is going to send them to Hell if they don't support modern day Israel.

Friggin morons.

Like these?

FROM ATLANTA TO ... ISRAEL
Israel sees tourism boom from Christian visitors / Tighter security has decreased violence

By ROBERT W. GEE
Cox News Service
Published on: 06/20/08

ABU GHOSH, Israel — It was her first trip to the Holy Land, and hours before boarding a plane to fly back to Atlanta, Susan Thomas declared it to be the best trip she's ever taken.

"I feel like all of the sudden, the bible pops. It comes alive. I can picture where these places are. They're not just spots on a map," said Thomas, 62, of Marietta.

The Tourism Ministry launched a $3.5 million advertising campaign last year targeting American evangelical Christians, and officials attribute part of the increase in tourists to the efforts, which include television, radio and print ads featuring prominent Christian personalities.

http://www.ajc.com/travel/content/travel/otherdestinations/int_stories/2008/06/20/christian_tourism_israel.html

biccat
06-24-2008, 04:32 PM
1. The Israel bastards created the Palestinian terrorist by brutalizing Palestinians for 50 years. One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.
The label of freedom fighter should never be given to someone who kills women and children in cold blood.


2. The Israelis have killed untold numbers of Palestinian women and children, who were non combatants.
The Palestinians have a habit of killing innocent Palestinian women and children and then claiming the Israeli government did so. There is more Palestinian blood on the hands of Arafat and his supporters than all of Israel.


3. The Israeli bastards have killed and brutalized Palestinian Christians along side Palestinian Muslims.
Christians are repressed and demonized in Muslim culture. When the Palestinian Muslims can't find a ready source of Jews to kill, they decide to slaughter Christians.


4. The fight between Palestinians and Israel is not America’s fight.
Our interests are so connected to the Middle East that the violence from the Palestinians towards the Israelis is a threat to us. We are not served by a united socialist middle east, any more than we are served by a united communist Asia.


5. Since the Palestinians are the oppressed the moral thing is for Americans is to side with them instead of giving weapons and money to the Israelis to use to kill the Palestinians, however the best thing to do is stay out of the fight and not side with anybody.
So we should give money and weapons to the Palestinians to kill Israelis? Aren't the peace-loving Muslim neighbors doing that enough? Israel does not intentionally kill innocent Palestinians. Palestinians intentionally target and kill innocent Israelis, and avoid valid military targets.


6. Our Founding Fathers told us not go meddling in the affairs of other countries when our security is not at stake.
Our security is at stake. Like it or not, we cannot retreat from the rest of the world and pull the door closed behind us. We are so completely entwined in world politics that international affairs will always affect us. And the effect of our meddling is raising the standard of living throughout the world and making more markets, raising the standard of living here at home.


7. We are running a deficit and we have high taxation and we shouldn’t be giving money to any foreign country, no less a brutal apartheid government that has been declared a terrorist state by most of the world.
By whom? Iran, Syria, and Lebanon? If those are the authorities that you listen to, then you probably believe that the United States should declare itself a terrorist state as well.

Odysseus
06-24-2008, 08:20 PM
1. The Israel bastards created the Palestinian terrorist by brutalizing Palestinians for 50 years. One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

The refrain from every apologist for terrorism. In fact, freedom fighters don't behead prisoners, send children into crowds wearing suicide belts and deliberately target civilians. Terrorists do. An d let's get a few things straight: First, it was Palestinian Arabs who began the violence when European Jews began immigrating to the region, starting with riots in 1920 through the beginning of WWII. The Jewish policy was to buy land in the area and begin farming. No one was "pushed off of their land" by Jewish immigrants. Second, after WWII, the UN Partition plan conducted a very careful census of the region, identified those areas with Jewish majorities and Arab majorities and divided the area accordingly. The Jews agreed to the plan, the Arabs refused. Armies from Egypt, TransJordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi-Arabia and Yemen surrounded the Jewish enclaves and invaded. When the dust settled, the Israelis had driven off the Arab armies and carved out a


2. The Israelis have killed untold numbers of Palestinian women and children, who were non combatants.

How about actually providing numbers? Oh, wait, they're untold numbers. I guess that's because you can't actually tell us any numbers.


3. The Israeli bastards have killed and brutalized Palestinian Christians along side Palestinian Muslims.

Again, BS. The PLO has killed more Palestinians than anyone else, with Hamas a close second. Look at the coup that Hamas launched in Gaza last year. How many Palestinians did they kill? Or doesn't it matter when you can't blame it on Israel?


4. The fight between Palestinians and Israel is not America’s fight.

You keep ignoring the fact that, long before Israel had anything to do with Palestinians, Arab armies were converging on the country in order to slaughter the inhabitants because their existence was an affront to Arab "honor" and a blight on Islam. This isn't just "Palestinians" versus Israel, it's barbarians versus civilization. It's 7th century Islamist hate versus 21st century peoples. If you don't understand that that's not only our fight, but the fight of every nation that doesn't want to find itself under a restored Caliphate, then you don't get the whole global jihad movement.


5. Since the Palestinians are the oppressed the moral thing is for Americans is to side with them instead of giving weapons and money to the Israelis to use to kill the Palestinians, however the best thing to do is stay out of the fight and not side with anybody.

The Palestinians are oppressed by the other Arab states more than they are by the Israelis. When Jordan and Egypt owned the West Bank and Gaza, they did nothing for the people there, denying them citizenship and keeping them in squalid refugee camps until 1967, when they lost the Six-Day War and suddenly decided that they gave a crap about them.


6. Our Founding Fathers told us not go meddling in the affairs of other countries when our security is not at stake.

Was our security at stake when we kicked the Barbary Pirates' collective asses? They were raiding our shipping in the name of Allah back when the Founding Fathers were still running the US, and they had no problem putting a hurt on them. Somehow, I don't see George Washington taking 9/11 lying down.


7. We are running a deficit and we have high taxation and we shouldn’t be giving money to any foreign country, no less a brutal apartheid government that has been declared a terrorist state by most of the world.

You keep making that talking point as if it's true and relevent. In fact, the same countries that attack Israel for its policies say most of the same things about us, and for the same reason, because we don't kowtow to the opinions of tyrannies and their appeasers.


You can respond any way you want. I am out of here.

Promise? :D

Odysseus
06-24-2008, 08:22 PM
The label of freedom fighter should never be given to someone who kills women and children in cold blood...

Tag team! ;)

gator
06-24-2008, 09:08 PM
Promise? :D

Don't get too pleased with yourself.

I exposed the reason why you have your head up your ass and the reason why you love Israel more than America so I have no need to continue for the time being.

I will revisit the subject in the future as appropriate. The goddamn Israelis are always fucking the US so my interest will be renewed. I suspect the bastards will pull us into a war with Iran soon, probably right after the election, which will please the sonofabitches to no end to have America fight their wars for them. Iraq wasn't enough. The sad thing is that we are so goddamn stupid we will oblige them. Perpetual War to Make the Israelis Safe R Us.

Molon Labe
06-24-2008, 09:16 PM
The label of freedom fighter should never be given to someone who kills women and children in cold blood.

How are you all so certain that the Israeli's have never engaged in methods that may have some saying the same thing?

Arab's don't view women and children the way the west does and while I find that disgraceful....that's the enemy we deal with.

Michael Scheuer is an excellent expert in Muslim affairs...particularly Bin Laden. Some of this administration would be wise to listen a little better to what he has said about Islamic terrorism.

He points out that Muslims see children as "those who haven't been burdened by the problems of the world"
As strange as it may seem to the West. Muslims see it better for the young to die before they suffer under oppression of the West. Whether we agree or not...you've got about 400 million Arabs that believe they are oppressed and that Israel is one of the greatest oppressros.

I think the problem with a lot of people in this thread is a lack of understanding of just what the Arab world view is...whether we like it or not.

Odysseus
06-24-2008, 09:29 PM
Don't get too pleased with yourself.
I exposed the reason why you have your head up your ass and the reason why you love Israel more than America so I have no need to continue for the time being.

You've exposed nothing except your dishonesty and hate. I love America and have put my life on the line for her, regardless of your lies.


I will revisit the subject in the future as appropriate. The goddamn Israelis are always fucking the US so my interest will be renewed. I suspect the bastards will pull us into a war with Iran soon, probably right after the election, which will please the sonofabitches to no end to have America fight their wars for them. Iraq wasn't enough. The sad thing is that we are so goddamn stupid we will oblige them. Perpetual War to Make the Israelis Safe R Us.

Yeah, that's it. It won't be that Iran is sending weapons to Iraq for use against American troops, or that they are developing nukes which they will use against all of their neighbors (up to and including Europe), not just Israel. Got it.

It may interest you to know that Ahmedinejad is a twelver, a Shia who believes that the twelfth Imam will return after a conflagration in order to turn the world towards Allah. He sees it as his mission to initiate that conflagration, and guess what technology he plans to use towards that end? But hey, you keep blaming Israel for everything from the war in Iraq to the color of your carpet. It's all the fault of the Jews. Been there. Done that, too many times, and know a bigot when I see one.

Sonnabend
06-25-2008, 04:35 AM
Iraq wasn't enough.

Whiskey

Tango

Foxtrot?

John
06-25-2008, 05:10 AM
l.
Michael Scheuer is an excellent expert in Muslim affairs...particularly Bin Laden. Some of this administration would be wise to listen a little better to what he has said about Islamic terrorism.


Welcome to CU!?! I served an an intel analyst for the 6th ESB, 4th FSSG, during OIF. Michael Scheuer is one of the guys I look up to. I've started a few thereads explaining his expertise and general knowledge. Nobody's listening.

The people who inhabit this forum, for the most part want a biblical end to existence, or want a perpetual enemy.....obviously, they've never been shot at. But I digress. Preach the wisdom of Scheuer from the high mountains. Just don't be pissed when no-one listens.

It's a matter of record that Israel has conducted air strikes, with U.S. made F16 Strike Eagle aircraft in heavily populated residential districts without the benefits of forward spotters. Yeah, Israeli's have killed many Palestinian innocents. 6K bombs in a residential, even laser guided, will kill a few square blocks. However, that's not really important. What's really important is the fact that Israel insists on escalating violent behavior, knowing full well the U.S. will be there, with all it's shiny taxpayer gold to cover the never ending escalation. Never once, until they have to finance their own security, will they think of an efficient method for survival and peace.

Sonnabend
06-25-2008, 05:21 AM
The people who inhabit this forum, for the most part want a biblical end to existence, or want a perpetual enemy.....obviously, they've never been shot at. But I digress. Preach the wisdom of Scheuer from the high mountains. Just don't be pissed when no-one listens.

Speak for yourself. I wish neither. I don't want any enemies..unfortunately , there are people out there who want me, and my wife, and those I love, dead to further their miserable, unreasoned hatred.

Have I been shot at? No. Assaulted and bashed on duty? Yes. Knifed on duty? Yes.

Been personally in peril whilst on duty? Yes. Risked my neck for others? Yes...and had my ass well and truly chewed out afterwards for being a/ brave b/ stupid and c/ lucky I survived my own idiocy.

(No argument, I took a stupid risk and was fortunate to come out alive. In hindsight my ass deserved to be kicked halfway to Mars and back)

I was medically disqualified to serve in the military...but I did what I could for my fellow man in rescue and as a volunteer emergency services officer.

I do not claim to be your equal in any way, John, but I do understand mortal fear.

Will that suffice?

Personally, the only end to existence I'd like?....is to die in bed an old man.

John
06-25-2008, 05:51 AM
Personally, the only end to existence I'd like?....is to die in bed an old man.

Hopefully with many sons and daughters around.


Speak for yourself. I wish neither. I don't want any enemies..unfortunately , there are people out there who want me, and my wife, and those I love, dead to further their miserable, unreasoned hatred.


There are people who want you dead! Of course! It should be nothing new, nor unusual. The Islamic extremists have wanted you dead since the 70's. However governments, U.S. government *NOT excluded....our enemies aren't getting any less determined or severe. Despite our spending nearly a trillion a year. Spending a trillion a year does quite a bit of damage to Americans....not so much to terrorists. It's not pretty when the U.S. dollar goes from $3 per pack of diapers to $7 per pack. It gets pretty unruly in the U.S., and it will, I mean *will* cost McCain the election.

Scheuer was right. The U.S. should have gone after the heads of this snake. We should have caught Bin Laden and made an example of him when we had the chance. We should have him in our clutches right now!!!! Moreover the U.S. as a whole should have listened more to Scheuer and armed our diplomats with the intel they needed to make an impression on the rest of world



Have I been shot at? No. Assaulted and bashed on duty? Yes. Knifed on duty? Yes.


Well I've been shot at. As a matter of fact, last time I was shot at in anger my youngest was still in her mama's belly. My wife was pregnant while I was deployed. Now, my daughter, who was born two days after I got back is starting kindergarten. That's five years of going to funerals, wakes and baby showers for my brethren. It's really hard to support the political ideology that forces this upon families. That's five years of my life and nearly 2 trillion dollars of taxpayer money. If this is a global war on terror, where is the global and why is the cost being pushed right onto the U.S.? Don't get pissed off at U.S. citizens for wanting to stop this shit.




Been personally in peril whilst on duty? Yes. Risked my neck for others? Yes...and had my ass well and truly chewed out afterwards for being a/ brave b/ stupid and c/ lucky I survived my own idiocy.

(No argument, I took a stupid risk and was fortunate to come out alive. In hindsight my ass deserved to be kicked halfway to Mars and back)



Fuck, "them". If you did what you felt you had to do, then you did your job. If the opportunity ever presents itself, do it again. Otherwise you won't be able to live with yourself.




Will that suffice?


I'm not qualified to answer that question, but I know plenty of mamas who are. You come to this country and ask them. You look them in the eye and you tell them that their sons died for the freedom of:

Iraq-
Turkey-
Afghanistan-
Israel-
Saudi Arabia-
Philippines-
India-
Japan-
Niger-
Somolia-
Poland-
England-


Don't be shy. Just ask them, they'll tell you how much it costs the U.S. to defend that which it does not own.

Sonnabend
06-25-2008, 06:28 AM
Fuck, "them". If you did what you felt you had to do, then you did your job. If the opportunity ever presents itself, do it again. Otherwise you won't be able to live with yourself.

No. On this occasion (details dont matter) I gambled. And won by luck and little else.

You're a soldier and understand calculated risk Vs your OIC taking you back behind a wall and smacking you six ways upside the head for scaring the living shit out of him, making him wonder what he would say in a "deeply regret" letter, and then, after you come back alive,...wanting to throttle you himself :D :D

It was one of THOSE moments.


It gets pretty unruly in the U.S., and it will, I mean *will* cost McCain the election.

I think not....call it a hunch.


Moreover the U.S. as a whole should have listened more to Scheuer and armed our diplomats with the intel they needed to make an impression on the rest of world

Agreed.

Constitutionally Speaking
06-25-2008, 06:30 AM
Hopefully with many sons and daughters around.



There are people who want you dead! Of course! It should be nothing new, nor unusual. The Islamic extremists have wanted you dead since the 70's. However governments, U.S. government *NOT excluded....our enemies aren't getting any less determined or severe. Despite our spending nearly a trillion a year. Spending a trillion a year does quite a bit of damage to Americans....not so much to terrorists. It's not pretty when the U.S. dollar goes from $3 per pack of diapers to $7 per pack. It gets pretty unruly in the U.S., and it will, I mean *will* cost McCain the election.

Scheuer was right. The U.S. should have gone after the heads of this snake. We should have caught Bin Laden and made an example of him when we had the chance. We should have him in our clutches right now!!!! Moreover the U.S. as a whole should have listened more to Scheuer and armed our diplomats with the intel they needed to make an impression on the rest of world



Well I've been shot at. As a matter of fact, last time I was shot at in anger my youngest was still in her mama's belly. My wife was pregnant while I was deployed. Now, my daughter, who was born two days after I got back is starting kindergarten. That's five years of going to funerals, wakes and baby showers for my brethren. It's really hard to support the political ideology that forces this upon families. That's five years of my life and nearly 2 trillion dollars of taxpayer money. If this is a global war on terror, where is the global and why is the cost being pushed right onto the U.S.? Don't get pissed off at U.S. citizens for wanting to stop this shit.





Fuck, "them". If you did what you felt you had to do, then you did your job. If the opportunity ever presents itself, do it again. Otherwise you won't be able to live with yourself.




I'm not qualified to answer that question, but I know plenty of mamas who are. You come to this country and ask them. You look them in the eye and you tell them that their sons died for the freedom of:

Iraq-
Turkey-
Afghanistan-
Israel-
Saudi Arabia-
Philippines-
India-
Japan-
Niger-
Somolia-
Poland-
England-


Don't be shy. Just ask them, they'll tell you how much it costs the U.S. to defend that which it does not own.


Regardless of what bill of goods you have been sold, we went to Iraq because removing Saddam ended a major supporter of terrorists. It puts us in position to pressure Iran and Syria.

The cost of the war is NOTHING compared to the cost of not going and this cost is over in a relatively short time, the costs of inaction are far more, but spread out over a longer time.

John
06-25-2008, 06:52 AM
Regardless of what bill of goods you have been sold, we went to Iraq because removing Saddam ended a major supporter of terrorists. It puts us in position to pressure Iran and Syria.

The cost of the war is NOTHING compared to the cost of not going and this cost is over in a relatively short time, the costs of inaction are far more, but spread out over a longer time.


LOL! Ha! I seriously can't keep from laughing! Removing Saddam removed a large number of terrorists threats!!! OMGFROFLOL!! Wow. That's rich. That's amazing! It's way tooo bad that Americans didn't get that sort of bang for their buck!...Not even the CIA goes so far..... Oh yes, Saddam was a terrorist.....how stupid.....how ungodly retarted........

What sort of dreamworld are you living in? Set the stage for an invastion of.....of.....syria?!? LOL! Why not Saudi Arabia!?

Christ you are retarted. In word thought and deed you are insufficient!. For the love of god, please read some Schuerer, or at least some 911 commission, and get a fucking clue. Christ you lick the paint, don't you?

Molon Labe
06-25-2008, 07:57 AM
LOL! Ha! I seriously can't keep from laughing! Removing Saddam removed a large number of terrorists threats!!! OMGFROFLOL!! Wow. That's rich. That's amazing! It's way tooo bad that Americans didn't get that sort of bang for their buck!...Not even the CIA goes so far..... Oh yes, Saddam was a terrorist.....how stupid.....how ungodly retarted........

What sort of dreamworld are you living in? Set the stage for an invastion of.....of.....syria?!? LOL! Why not Saudi Arabia!?

Christ you are retarted. In word thought and deed you are insufficient!. For the love of god, please read some Schuerer, or at least some 911 commission, and get a fucking clue. Christ you lick the paint, don't you?

Basically what C.S. is saying is that we want to put pressure on two little podunk demons...Syria and Iran...And we do this by supposedly enforcing UN mandates against Iraq....but it's still a preemptive strike on a sovreign nation.
While real idiots like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt (where most terrorists come from) and North Korea get a pass and most of our "enemies" suck up American tax dollars through subsidies and foreign aid for their "support" in the GWOT.

Let me remind some that Syria and Iran have no air force, no navy, no 21st century capabiliities of matching the U.S on the battlefield...and we are supposed to believe that these two piss ants represent a threat equivelant to Soviet Russia and Hitler's Germany. Bull shit.

biccat
06-25-2008, 09:52 AM
LOL! Ha! I seriously can't keep from laughing! Removing Saddam removed a large number of terrorists threats!!! OMGFROFLOL!! Wow. That's rich. That's amazing! It's way tooo bad that Americans didn't get that sort of bang for their buck!...Not even the CIA goes so far..... Oh yes, Saddam was a terrorist.....how stupid.....how ungodly retarted........

What sort of dreamworld are you living in? Set the stage for an invastion of.....of.....syria?!? LOL! Why not Saudi Arabia!?

Christ you are retarted. In word thought and deed you are insufficient!. For the love of god, please read some Schuerer, or at least some 911 commission, and get a fucking clue. Christ you lick the paint, don't you?
So you're saying it would have been cheaper for the United States if a terrorist armed with an Iraqi-made biological weapon made it into New York City? Or if Iran started dropping nuclear munitions on Israel (because whatever your feelings on Israel, nuclear war affects everyone).

I suppose you have a distorted world view. Not surprising considering your anti-semitism.

Odysseus
06-25-2008, 02:00 PM
Personally, the only end to existence I'd like?....is to die in bed an old man.

Preferably with a young woman. :D

Odysseus
06-25-2008, 03:05 PM
Let me remind some that Syria and Iran have no air force, no navy, no 21st century capabiliities of matching the U.S on the battlefield...and we are supposed to believe that these two piss ants represent a threat equivelant to Soviet Russia and Hitler's Germany. Bull shit.

Iran does have a navy and air force. They're much smaller than ours, but they only have to operate in and around the Persian Gulf, while ours is spread out throughout the world. In fact, they've been working to upgrade and expand their capabilities. Since the early 1990s, their navy has been expanded by the purchase of 70-ton Chinese patrol boats with Styx antiship missiles, two Russian Kilo-class submarines and eight mini-submarines from North Korea. The following is a list of Iranian naval vessels by type, class and number:


Submarines
SSK Kilo (3)
Nahang Class (1)
Ghadir class (3)
Yugo class (4)

Destroyers
Babr class destroyer (Allen M. Sumner class) (2)
Jamaran class destroyer (1)

Frigates
Alvand (Saam) class (Vosper Mk5 type) Frigates(3)
Moudge class frigate (2)

Corvettes

Bayandor class (PF 103 type) large patrol corvettes
Hamzeh class

Missile Craft

Houdong class aka Thondor Class (10)
Kaman class (Combattante II type or Sina class) missile boats (12)

Patrol: Coastal

Parvin class (3)
Kaivan class (2)
Patrol: Inshore
Zafar class (3)
Chinese Cat-14 (5)
MIG-S-2600 Class (6)
Mk III Class (9)

Hovercraft (14)


Submersible Boats (3?)

Kajami Class (Taedong-B)(1?)
Gahjea Class (Taedong-C)(2?)
New Iranian Made Fast attack craft (name unknown) (74)[9]

miscellaneous small craft (200+)


Mine Layers

Hejaz LST (2)

Mine Countermeasures

Shahrokh MSC (1)
292 MSC (2)
Riazi Class (Cape Class) minesweeper(2)

Amphibious

Hengam LST (4)
Iran Hormuz 24 LST (3)
Iran Hormuz 21 LST (3)
Fouque LSL(3)

Landing Craft, Tank (6)

ACV *BH.7 Mk 4 - Logistic Support Hovercraft(6)
SRN-6 Hovercraft

Support

Kharg Class (1) Bandar Abbas Class (2)
Delvar class (7)
Hendijan class (13) General Purpose Tenders (MIG-S-4700)
Kangan Class (4)

As for Iran's Air Force, same deal. Lots of stuff, some of it very new. See below for types and numbers.
Aircraft Function Model Number
Agusta-Bell 206 utility helicopter AB 206A 3
Agusta-Bell 212 Light-lift transport helicopter AB 212 5
Agusta-Sikorsky AS-61 helicopter AS-61A4 2
Beechcraft Bonanza trainer F33C 20
Bell 214 Medium-lift transport helicopter Bell 214C 25
Boeing 707 transport/air-to-air refuelling tanker 707-3J9C 10
Boeing 747 VIP transport/air-to-air refuelling tanker 747-100F 5
Boeing CH-47 Chinook Heavy-lift transport helicopter CH-47C 4
Chengdu F-7 Airguard Fighter (F-7M)/trainer (FT-7) F-7M 20
Dassault Falcon 20 VIP transport 1
Dassault Falcon 50 VIP transport 3
Dassault Mirage F1 fighter F1EQ 24
Embraer EMB 312 Tucano Basic trainer 15
Fajr-3 trainer F.3 *?
Fokker F27 Friendship tactical airlift/transport F27-400M 11
Grumman F-14 Tomcat Interceptor/multi-role fighter F-14A 20
Harbin Y-12 utility transport 8
HESA Azarakhsh fighter First Generation 6
HESA Saeqeh fighter Second Generation Azarakhsh *?
HESA Shafaq fighter
Dorna/Tazarv trainer *? 2
IAMI Parastoo trainer 12
HESA Simorgh trainer
Ilyushin Il-76 transport 15
Ilyushin Il-76 AEW Airborne Early Warning Adnan-1 2
Kaman HH-43 Huskie rescue helicopter HH-43F 8
Lockheed C-130 Hercules tactical airlift/transport C-130E/H 9
Lockheed JetStar VIP transport JetStar II 1
Lockheed P-3 Orion maritime patrol P-3F 3
Lockheed T-33 Shooting Star trainer T-33A 5
McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom II fighter F-4D/E 44
Mikoyan MiG-29 fighter MiG-29A 60
Mikoyan MiG-29 trainer MiG-29UB 15
Mil Mi-8 Medium-lift transport helicopter Mi-8MTW 4
Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter/Tiger fighter F-5A 75
Pilatus PC-6 Porter utility transport 12
Pilatus PC-7 Turbo Trainer trainer 20
Rockwell Commander 690 utility transport 690A 4
PAC Mushshak trainer Mushshak 23
Shenyang F-6 Farmer fighter F-6 18
Socata TB utility TB 20 6
Sukhoi Su-24 strike/air-to-air refuelling tanker SU-24MK 24
Sukhoi Su-25 strike/close air support Su-25K 6
Xian Y-7 tactical transport Y-7 14

Aren't you glad that you have an expert on the board to set you straight? :D

Molon Labe
06-25-2008, 04:28 PM
Iran does have a navy and air force. They're much smaller than ours,

Impressive list and impressive research.
I hope you don't really believe that is comparable to what our capabilities today are compared to 1939... We could destroy that type of capabilities in less than a Summers vacation.

Me thinks that something akin to 27 panzer divisions... not to mention over 500 Wehrmacht Infantry divisions of different capabilities ... 20+ Luftwaffe divisions...... and a Navy that nearly matched the Royal Navy (the greatest of that era)....is much more on par with what a Nation, that would pose a similar threat to us ,would need to come close to today.

Maybe that's China or Russia...but don't suggest Iran.

You were just being informative weren't you?

Molon Labe
06-25-2008, 04:32 PM
Regardless of what bill of goods you have been sold, we went to Iraq because removing Saddam ended a major supporter of terrorists. It puts us in position to pressure Iran and Syria.

The cost of the war is NOTHING compared to the cost of not going and this cost is over in a relatively short time, the costs of inaction are far more, but spread out over a longer time.


When the war started in 03' that's not what we were told. We were told we were looking to disarm Iraq of WMD's, enforce U.N.sanctions and nationbuilding for "Democracy". Saying that it was for terrorism is malarky. It's been a sweet 8 year journey watching it morph into that rationale.

For those with short memories and need a little refreshing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkOCIfNQXP0&feature=related goal is to disarm Iraq and nation building.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_A77N5WKWM&feature=related acceptance of preemptive war as a rule against despots

Nobody seems to get that International relations inherently breeds distrust for just about all involved. It's essentially a zero sum game to some nations...
That means one's security is another's threat....meaning its normal for a nation to want to develop nuclear weapons....because the facts of the 20th century say that you aren't going to be invaded if you have one.

From a purely International Relations standpoint I pose this question....

I'd be interested to know what the world view and reaction would be if somebody like say...China for example, decided that it was in their interest to remove... (any world leaders name here) to end their major support of (any ideology here)....so they could be in position to pressure (name of sovereign nation here) until that nation was shaped in the image they desired so that it was more in line with their geo political world view?

I'll guarantee if it was in our hemisphere we would do more than protest. I'll also guarantee that if we were ever invaded by a foreign power..whatever their rationale was to accomplish here...there would be more than a handful of American's willing to do just about anything to get rid of those SOBs.

What does relatively short time mean today? Are you talking about 8 years, 2 trillion dollar war Bush,...100 year war McCain... or God knows how long or what the next Nation-building excursion Obama?

ConJinx
06-25-2008, 04:41 PM
I believe the Major was letting us know the amount of recyclables that will be strewn around the greater Persian Gulf region. Can't wait to see the carbon footprint of the "Iranian Nuclear Power Plant" after it detonates over Israel.

LogansPapa
06-25-2008, 04:43 PM
When the war started in 03' that's not what we were told. We were told we were looking to disarm Iraq of WMD's, enforce U.N.sanctions and nationbuilding for "Democracy". Saying that it was for terrorism is malarky. It's been a sweet 8 year journey watching it morph into that rationale.

Outstanding.;)

biccat
06-25-2008, 04:48 PM
When the war started in 03' that's not what we were told. We were told we were looking to disarm Iraq of WMD's, enforce U.N.sanctions and nationbuilding for "Democracy". Saying that it was for terrorism is malarky. It's been a sweet 8 year journey watching it morph into that rationale.

I remember when the Left was pointing to Iraq and saying "See, see, no terrorists! The war was a lie!"

Conveniently, now that terrorists are using Iraq as a striking point for attacks against the United States, the story is changing. Now there never was a terrorism component. The war in Iraq was never part of the War on Terror, and, conveniently, this means that Bush lied.

If the left would just stick to one story then their entire political base would be destroyed. Instead, they change history depending on the status of the war.

ConJinx
06-25-2008, 04:52 PM
Geo-politics is complicated, but when you cut to the short version it works out to be "Them vs. U.S." The them list keeps getting longer because cowardice takes no effort, the U.S. list gets shorter but stronger. Argue the "little things" if you must, but the stage is set whether you choose to accept it or not. Best to choose sides now. Fightn's commenced, time to fight or fly.

Molon Labe
06-25-2008, 07:28 PM
Geo-politics is complicated, but when you cut to the short version it works out to be "Them vs. U.S." The them list keeps getting longer because cowardice takes no effort, the U.S. list gets shorter but stronger. Argue the "little things" if you must, but the stage is set whether you choose to accept it or not. Best to choose sides now. Fightn's commenced, time to fight or fly.

Sorry...I don't have the inclination to entertain those that "think in slogan's and talk in bullets" - George Orwell

You keep on getting force fed by Fox, CNN and MSNBC...I'll pass.

Zathras
06-25-2008, 11:54 PM
As for Iran's Air Force, same deal. Lots of stuff, some of it very new.

Lots of stuff yes. Very new? Not really...I don't see anything on that list newer than the 1980's, maybe the 90's.

Odysseus
06-26-2008, 12:43 AM
Impressive list and impressive research.
I hope you don't really believe that is comparable to what our capabilities today are compared to 1939... We could destroy that type of capabilities in less than a Summers vacation.
Me thinks that something akin to 27 panzer divisions... not to mention over 500 Wehrmacht Infantry divisions of different capabilities ... 20+ Luftwaffe divisions...... and a Navy that nearly matched the Royal Navy (the greatest of that era)....is much more on par with what a Nation, that would pose a similar threat to us ,would need to come close to today.
Maybe that's China or Russia...but don't suggest Iran.
You were just being informative weren't you?

I was attempting to be, but some people take more effort to inform than others.

First, forget WWII in terms of capabilities. In order to fight that war, we fielded over 11 million military personnel out of a population of 150 million. When you start breaking down the population and exclude ineligible groups (the elderly, children, women, etc.), you realize that pretty much every able-bodied male was put in uniform. We also lacked a shrill, hysterical antiwar movement that impeded every action, a media that routinely informed our enemies of classified information and an opposition party that has chosen to lose a war in order to win an election.

Our current military is just about 2 million active and reserve members. We are not mobilizing reservists for the duration, but for limited deployments. Our available manpower is actually only about half a million at any given time, while Iran has just that many in their army. Now, if Iran forced us to go in and engage them in a conventional attack, we'd come out on top fairly quickly, but nobody does that nowadays unless they're idiots. Just look at what happened to Saddam. They may want to fight us, but they don't want to fight us in Teheran. By the same token, neither do we. An invasion of Iran would mean an occupation and an insurgency, with the loyal opposition providing the same support in that endeavor that they have up to now in Iraq and Afghanistan. Besides, Iran knows that they can continue to erode our capabilities by providing material support to insurgents who kill Americans. This doesn't actually do much damage to our capabilities on the ground, but a media that counts our casualties and stops just short of carving notches on their anchor desks for each dead American, continually erodes the will of the American people to sustain operations. Iran's goal is to sap our will through a thousand little cuts while using the time gained to develop their nuclear capabilities, while supressing popular discontent with the Islamist regime. Our policy must recogniize that the mullahs are living on borrowed time, that the majority of their population loathes them, and that their only means of retaining power is to develop a nuclear arsenal that renders them immune to external pressure so that they can suppress their dissenters. That means providing the opposition with the tools to resist and roll back the government. We should be providing the Farsi equivalent of Radio Free Europe in order to provide the Iranian people with real information, plus laptops, cell phones and any other tools that enable the people of Iran to coordinate and organize their efforts.


Lots of stuff yes. Very new? Not really...I don't see anything on that list newer than the 1980's, maybe the 90's.

In arms acquisition, anything less than ten years old is considered new, especially airframes, tank designs and capital ships. The Iranian Air Force consists of aircraft from several major sources, but basically, the big three are the US (acquired under the Shah, so pre-1979), Russian (mid-80's to early 90s) and Chinese (mid-90s to now, and some very new equipment in that list). By way of comparison, our main battle tank, the Abrams, began it's production run during the Reagan administration. The F22 Raptor is relatively new, but the F-16, B1 and B2 were late 80s prototypes and the majority of our airlift, the C-130s, C-5As, etc., are 1960s-1970s designs. Our equipment is still better, and our training beats theirs hands down, but don't pretend that Iran isn't a formidable regional power, and if you're playing chess against multiple players simultaneously (as we are with Iran, Al Qaeda, Syria, Hamas, North Korea, the Taliban, the FARC movement in Colombia and a host of others), you'd better not make the mistake of fighting a war of attrition.

Molon Labe
06-26-2008, 10:51 AM
[
I was attempting to be, but some people take more effort to inform than others.

And I appreciate the info...but I'm not sure how listing of every major weapon's system is significant to guerilla war.
I'm not convinced that conventional warfare is likely in a war with Iran. No nation in the, middle east, is so suicidally insane to engage the U.S. military head to head on the battlefield by conventional means. I think to many underestimate the lessons learned from two decades of fighting the Soviet's in Afghanistan and us in Iraq. Let me remind you 19 box cutters did more to hurt U.S. infrastructure than any weapon system you listed.

If you are truly serious about taking time to be informed...then may I suggest reading Michael Scheuer's first piece "Through our enemies eyes". It's the most thorough analysis of bin laden and Al Qaeda out there and it goes totally ignored by this administration...You know...the one's that have convinced us they know best, but have made every conceivable mistake possible in a nation building excursion..like dismissing intelligent voices of reason like General's Shinseki and Colin Powell when they don't tow the Neo con line.
I've learned is it's best to abstain from the U.S. MSM as long as possible and read other alternative news sources such as international news sites.



Our policy must recognized that the mullahs are living on borrowed time, that the majority of their population loathes them, and that their only means of retaining power is to develop a nuclear arsenal that renders them immune to external pressure so that they can suppress their dissenters.

I once thought that way about 8 years ago, but I've learned too much about how insurgencies are created, how much the west has underestimated the threat of Al Qaeda, and just how popular the mullahs have become to the once skeptical Muslims.

Unfortunately in the mid east....the one's that are on "borrowed time" are secular leaders like Shah Pahlavi in Iran or the current Al Sauds. If anything, the Mullah's influence is even stronger than when Ayatola Khomeini was trying to instigate Jihad 25 years ago. Whether it's true or not, all the Mullah need do today is point to the Crusades and compare it to today. That has been enough to convince even the most skeptical that the West is engaged in the modern equivalent. But we won't even consider that because of our mindset and we are force fed the popular MSM myth version is that Muslims hate their religious leaders and are only waiting for the shackles of their oppression to be removed by the USA. Enough of that garbage.

LogansPapa
06-26-2008, 11:31 AM
" Let me remind you 19 box cutters did more to hurt U.S. infrastructure than any weapon system you listed."

;) Exactly.

Molon Labe
06-26-2008, 12:49 PM
" Let me remind you 19 box cutters did more to hurt U.S. infrastructure than any weapon system you listed."

;) Exactly.

After 8 years of fighting some still don't even pay attention to Sun Tzu's primary wisdom of "Know the enemy". They taut all our technological weapons of war ...and the Mullahs bide their time and laugh.
If a terrorist organization ever sneaks through a nuclear device in this country..I'll guarantee that it came from the Russians before I believe it came from Iran.

LogansPapa
06-26-2008, 12:55 PM
If a terrorist organization ever sneaks through a nuclear device in this country..I'll guarantee that it came from the Russians before I believe it came from Iran.

So much for the shopping list of all the weapons that the Iranians have. :rolleyes: Every bit of hardware would suffer the same fate as Saddam’s, but then we’d insist on occupying and then the arduous bleeding of our resources would begin. Best handle this folly from the air and leave purple fingers to the history books.

Odysseus
06-26-2008, 08:19 PM
And I appreciate the info...but I'm not sure how listing of every major weapon's system is significant to guerilla war..
Allow me to remind you of your statement:

Let me remind some that Syria and Iran have no air force, no navy, no 21st century capabiliities of matching the U.S on the battlefield...and we are supposed to believe that these two piss ants represent a threat equivelant to Soviet Russia and Hitler's Germany. Bull shit.
My point is that, contrary to your erronious assertion, Iran does indeed have an air force and navy, and much of their equipment is new enough to be of concern.


I'm not convinced that conventional warfare is likely in a war with Iran. No nation in the, middle east, is so suicidally insane to engage the U.S. military head to head on the battlefield by conventional means. I think to many underestimate the lessons learned from two decades of fighting the Soviet's in Afghanistan and us in Iraq. Let me remind you 19 box cutters did more to hurt U.S. infrastructure than any weapon system you listed.

Iran isn't likely to instigate a conventional war with us, although they are afraid that we will do so with them, but they would very much like to have a nuclear capability, as that would render them untouchable (A nuclear-armed Saddam would have been much more dangerous to remove from power). What Iran does want is to assume leadership of the Islamic world and advance a global jihad which will put them in the position of being the masters of a new caliphate, which they believe will eventually control the world.

It wasn't the 19 box cutters that did it, it was our own rules of engagement. The terrorism playbook prior to 9/11 was to let the terrorist take control of the plane, minimize resistance and wait for them to land and issue demands, during which time the professionals would engage. By the time United 93's passengers knew what was going on, that paradigm was dead. Had the terrorist not been in control of the aircraft at that point, they'd never have gotten it, as the passengers would have overwelmed them with sheer numbers.


If you are truly serious about taking time to be informed...then may I suggest reading Michael Scheuer's first piece "Through our enemies eyes". It's the most thorough analysis of bin laden and Al Qaeda out there and it goes totally ignored by this administration...You know...the one's that have convinced us they know best, but have made every conceivable mistake possible in a nation building excursion..like dismissing intelligent voices of reason like General's Shinseki and Colin Powell when they don't tow the Neo con line.
I've learned is it's best to abstain from the U.S. MSM as long as possible and read other alternative news sources such as international news sites.

Actually, I was taking the time to try to inform you. I have access to information sources that you don't, which is one of the reasons that I'm less impressed with Michael Scheuer than you are. His record as the head of the Osama Bin Laden team at the CIA was less than stellar, although in all fairness to him, he did succeed in locating Osama a few times, but had the misfortune to work for Clinton, who was far more concerned with diddling interns than in keeping the US secure. Still, there are better sources for understanding the Islamist mindset, as well as the culture. I'm currently enrolled in the Leadership Development Education for Sustained Peace course, which is conducted by the Naval Post-Graduate school as an intense immersion in the culture, politics and history of the AO. I've also read some Bernard Lewis, David Pryce Jones, Sir Richard Burton and a number of original Arab sources.


I once thought that way about 8 years ago, but I've learned too much about how insurgencies are created, how much the west has underestimated the threat of Al Qaeda, and just how popular the mullahs have become to the once skeptical Muslims.

Once again, I don't get my information strictly through the MSM (although if you want to really know how things are going in Iraq, the guy to read is Michael Yon).


Unfortunately in the mid east....the one's that are on "borrowed time" are secular leaders like Shah Pahlavi in Iran or the current Al Sauds. If anything, the Mullah's influence is even stronger than when Ayatola Khomeini was trying to instigate Jihad 25 years ago. Whether it's true or not, all the Mullah need do today is point to the Crusades and compare it to today. That has been enough to convince even the most skeptical that the West is engaged in the modern equivalent. But we won't even consider that because of our mindset and we are force fed the popular MSM myth version is that Muslims hate their religious leaders and are only waiting for the shackles of their oppression to be removed by the USA. Enough of that garbage.

I wouldn't exactly call the Saudi royal family secular leaders. Saudi Arabia is as much a theocracy as Iran, it's just more obviously a monarchy than a "republic."

The Crusade meme used to work, but the corruption and incompetence of the Iranian regime have made most Iranians far too cynical to buy into it. A couple of years ago, the Iranian government commissioned a poll to determine just what the people thought of them. The results were so bad that they jailed the pollster and tried to suppress the poll, but it got out. Over 70% of those polled wanted to do away with the Islamic Republic. But even that doesn't tell the whole story. The whole concept of velayat-e faqih, a concept in Shi'a Islam which holds that Islam gives faqih (Islamic jurists) custodianship or guardianship over those in need of it, has expanded the role of the Ulema far beyond the traditions of Shia Islam. This was meant to apply to those who could not fend for themselves, such as orphans, widows, the extremely elderly, etc. Khomeini widened the concept to cover all Moslems, which essentially infantilized the entire population of Iran. This is the justification for the rule of the Council of Guardians and Supreme Guardians, but it is also a source of intense frustration for the vast majority of Iranians. Throw in the regime's corruption and inability to maintain the standard of living which was common before the revolution, and you have a country whose corrosive cynicism and discontent have made it a tinderbox. The government rules through the unflinching application of brute force against massive public opposition, but the huge anti-government rallies and protests are almost never reported in the MSM, so most Americans have no idea that the mullahs are almost universally loathed. Our best course of action is to fan the flames of that loathing through exposure of the government's crimes, both domestically and internationally, the dissemination of information through alternative broadcast media and the distribution of communications equipment to the opposition (Iranian bloggers are a massive source of pain to the regime). What we should not do is invade in force, unless the mullahs make good on their threat to produce nuclear weapons, at which point, we will have no choice.

Oh, and Sun Tzu's dictum was that you should know your enemy and yourself, so that you can use your resources to effectively counter your enemy's. "He who knows only his enemy will be victorious half of the time, while he who knows himself and his enemy will be victorious in all things."

John
06-27-2008, 04:55 AM
So you're saying it would have been cheaper for the United States if a terrorist armed with an Iraqi-made biological weapon made it into New York City? Or if Iran started dropping nuclear munitions on Israel (because whatever your feelings on Israel, nuclear war affects everyone).

I suppose you have a distorted world view. Not surprising considering your anti-semitism.

Do some fact checking. Come up with some facts and figures on how many "terrorists" were "Iraqi-Armed". Next look at Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. You do the math, you crunch the numbers, and you will find that the likehood of a Saudi Arabian terrorist armed with a Saudi Arabian financed bio-weapon would be a much more likely scenario than a Syrian, who is more likely than a Jordanian, who is more likely than an Iranian, who is more likely than a pre-invasion Iraqi. We spent 3 trillion dollars on nothing. Learn to accept it. It's going to be with us for a long time.

Molon Labe
06-27-2008, 08:04 AM
.
Allow me to remind you of your statement:

My point is that, contrary to your erronious assertion, Iran does indeed have an air force and navy, and much of their equipment is new enough to be of concern.

Do you take everyone out of context in such false assertions? Here's the complete statement.


Let me remind some that Syria and Iran have no air force, no navy, no 21st century capabiliities of matching the U.S on the battlefield...

I never said they only had sticks and stones as you would allude. Their abilities cannot match us on the battlefield..Period.

If you think the U.S. Military is threatened by the Iranian military apparatus any more than it was threatened by the Iraqi military as it was in 1990 you haven't got a clue. If you believe that these forces pose a threat similar to Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia...you have indeed "drank the Koolaide" as some have alledged.

gator
06-27-2008, 08:06 AM
We spent 3 trillion dollars on nothing.

What do you mean?

We made Israel safe from Saddam.

That way more Israelis could become millionaires.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1214132682326&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


One thousand more Israelis can call themselves rich, according to the twelfth annual "World Wealth Report" published on Tuesday.

The global report, released by Merrill Lynch & Co. and Capgemini Group, showed that the number of the country's millionaires grew by 13.6 percent in 2007, more than double the global millionaires' growth rate of 6%, to a total of 8,200.

Four American dead in Iraq for each new Israeli millionaire in 2007. It is great they can live so well while young American men and women give up their lives. I guess it is a honor to die for Israeli millionaires.

Sonnabend
06-27-2008, 08:09 AM
Four American dead in Iraq for each new Israeli millionaire in 2007. It is great they can live so well while young American men and women give up their lives. I guess it is a honor to die for Israeli millionaires.Just how does Israel factor into Iraq.

I KNOW I will regret saying this, god knows you've beaten this horse into giblets......but the reason for OIF had nothing to do with Israel.

Explain how it did.

And whats with this "perpetual war" crap?

LogansPapa
06-27-2008, 10:38 AM
Something about a rather large caliber multi-sectioned canon laying on a hill side pointed at the Jewish state that Saddam was assembling?

Molon Labe
06-27-2008, 11:17 AM
Just how does Israel factor into Iraq.

I KNOW I will regret saying this, god knows you've beaten this horse into giblets......but the reason for OIF had nothing to do with Israel.

Explain how it did.

And whats with this "perpetual war" crap?

Perpetual "war is the health of the state". Look it up

I guess you would have to believe that Lobbyists have way too much influence. If not, then you won't buy that AIPAC has the ability to sway U.S. foreign policy. Our governments are in complete symbiosis.

Then...low and behold the Cold war ends in the late 80's and there were no more demons to destroy. Untill 9-11

Then you have some talking heads calling themselves Neoconservatives: yet there's nothing conservative about a group of liberal Trotskyites who worship Wilsonian Idealism,and Leo Strauss who think the geopolitical order should conform to Western democracy...not by example mind you...but by force.

In the 90's their gains are slim and the Clinton administration gives them some insignificant credence, but he only bombs a few guys with limited military strikes on rogue states and won't implement their full goal in the promotion of "Democracy".

Then Bush comes to power and 9-11 happens and everyone is in fear of Muslims extremists. Bush basically gives them a blank check to mold the M.E. into their image. Bush has done nothing but listen to them for 8 years.

They believe in 3 main things.

Democratic Peace theory
Wilsonian Idealism in the vein of International Globalism
Preemptive war to accomplish these goals.

The strategy is to set up Iraq as a democracy in order to pacify the population to become pro Western and Israel - the only Democracy in the region.

Problem is...no one ever asked the important questions like whether the middle east, which is inherently tribal, is truly capable or even wanted western democracy....and nobody thought back to the failure of Wilsonian Idealism and remembered it was a farce.

Iraq had a whole hell of a lot less to do with WMD's and terrorism and much more to do about the grand scheme of Democratization and protecting Israel.

To claim Neocon beliefs are conservative is smack in the face to conservatism.
So basically anyone that supports these morons is a liberal statist dirtbag in my book. :D

LogansPapa
06-27-2008, 11:39 AM
Iraq had a whole hell of a lot less to do with WMD's and terrorism and much more to do about the grand scheme of Democratization and protecting Israel.

Outstanding analysis.

To quote Monty Python and the Holy Grail:

But how do you know she is a witch?

She looks like one!!!

Odysseus
06-27-2008, 11:44 AM
Do you take everyone out of context in such false assertions? Here's the complete statement.
I never said they only had sticks and stones as you would allude. Their abilities cannot match us on the battlefield..Period.
If you think the U.S. Military is threatened by the Iranian military apparatus any more than it was threatened by the Iraqi military as it was in 1990 you haven't got a clue. If you believe that these forces pose a threat similar to Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia...you have indeed "drank the Koolaide" as some have alledged.

I love how people cherry-pick a long post and then complain that I'm taking them out of context. That's the only thing that you got from my analyss? Why do I even bother?

You keep alluding the WWII, but there's no comparison. In terms of manpower, due to the constraints on our military, Iran has rough parity with us. Our air force and navy dwarf theirs, but again, ours is spread out throughout the globe, while theirs is concentrated and can only be engaged by what we have in the region. Finally, as I've repeatedly said, they don't want to directly engage us. They want to develop nuclear weapons, which will guarantee that we will not attack them while they continue to attack us assymetrically. Our best course of action is to equip and support the massive Iranian resistance to the Mullahs and undermine them through information operations.


What do you mean?
We made Israel safe from Saddam.
That way more Israelis could become millionaires.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull
Four American dead in Iraq for each new Israeli millionaire in 2007. It is great they can live so well while young American men and women give up their lives. I guess it is a honor to die for Israeli millionaires.

Ah, the oldest of antisemitic slurs, the money-grubbing, war-profiteering Jew. How truly small and pathetic you are. I thought that you said that you were done with this topic for a while. That was, what, two days ago? What's the matter, Gator? Having trouble getting Nazi-Underground started? Oh, and spare me the tortured logic of your love for Jews but hatred for Israel. When you start pulling slurs out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Mein Kampf, you're not fooling anyone but yourself.

BTW, we really do control the world. It took me just a few minutes to arrange to have your gun room carpet changed to aqua. Enjoy...:p

biccat
06-27-2008, 11:50 AM
This has got to be the biggest homoerotic anti-semite circle jerk I've seen on this site.

Pretty disgusting, but I suppose when you cross the anti-morality of the libertarians with the antisemitism of modern isolationists, this is what you can expect.

Well, that or Ron Paul, but he has an extra dash of "***** hating" just to spice things up.

-------------------------
Watch it with the N word, thx!!
Edited by SR

Molon Labe
06-27-2008, 12:01 PM
I love how people cherry-pick a long post and then complain that I'm taking them out of context. That's the only thing that you got from my analyss? Why do I even bother?

You keep alluding the WWII, but there's no comparison.

That quote is mine You know...the one where you alluded that I did not believe Iran had a navy or an airforce? But you conveniently leave out....."to match the U.S."

Your also right...there is no comparison to WW2 and today...My point exactly. The threat is far less.

I am not an Israel basher, I happen to respect the Jewish people very much and I don't think that being critical of black leadership is racist, so I don't think an honest assessment of Israel's or America's policy is anti American or Anti Semite. I can't speak for the way others have handled themselves on this board and the statements they've made.
Some of you that quash honest debate by labeling it "anti-semite" are doing no different than liberals that defend their points with Ad hominem B.S.

gator
06-27-2008, 12:12 PM
Ah, the oldest of antisemitic slurs, the money-grubbing, war-profiteering Jew. How truly small and pathetic you are. I thought that you said that you were done with this topic for a while. That was, what, two days ago? What's the matter, Gator? Having trouble getting Nazi-Underground started? Oh, and spare me the tortured logic of your love for Jews but hatred for Israel. When you start pulling slurs out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Mein Kampf, you're not fooling anyone but yourself.

BTW, we really do control the world. It took me just a few minutes to arrange to have your gun room carpet changed to aqua. Enjoy...:p

I don't think "they" control the world. I have never said anything like that.

I just looked at some basic facts.

Each man, woman and child in the US has to put up about $2,000 each for defense.

Each goddamn filthy Israeli only puts up a little over $1200.

Our country is running a deficit and we have to borrow money from the Chinese in order to give it to the Israelis. The Israelis are living high on the hog and getting rich and creating tons of new millionaires each year while our debt grows and the dollar is being devalued and our prices increase.

I don’t see why I have to spend more of my hard earned money for the defense of Israel than a goddamn Israeli have to spend themselves. Especially when they are getting rich and creating millionaires by the thousands each year.

I think we already know why you are biased and are incapable of putting the interest of the US ahead of a filthy Middle East country. I, on the other hand, am not saddle with conflicting loyalties. My loyalties are to the US.

The goddamn Israelis have a rich country. Let them pay for their own friggin defense.

By the way, my reasoning applies to several other countries. For instance, a South Korean spends about the same amount in absolute dollars as an Israeli for defense, which is less than an American.

LogansPapa
06-27-2008, 12:17 PM
At some point Americans have to become tired and angry of being Israel’s water carrier.:cool:

Molon Labe
06-27-2008, 12:20 PM
our (military?) is spread out throughout the globe, while theirs is concentrated and can only be engaged by what we have in the region. Finally, as I've repeatedly said, they don't want to directly engage us. They want to develop nuclear weapons, which will guarantee that we will not attack them while they continue to attack us assymetrically.

Don't you think that would be something that would be considered a real strategic problem and addressed?

And your damn right that they want to develop a nuke. That's a prime lesson concept of International Relations theory.
Whether we think so or not...they see the security dilemma as a zero sum game.

Sounds like your calling for the invasion of Iran!!? Good lord man! :confused:

gator
06-27-2008, 12:33 PM
.

Sounds like your calling for the invasion of Iran!!? Good lord man! :confused:


All pro Israel assholes want the US to attack Iran. That makes Israel safer. The pro Israel assholes wants us to kill every Arab and every Muslims and ever Persian and every Palestinian and anybody that opposes Israel. They like it like that.

I will never forget the afternoon of 911.

Everybody was in shock and countries from around the world were sending messages of support.

The friggin Israeli Ambassador came on TV. Instead of doing the decent thing like the other ambassadors he started in with his vile commentary about “Israeli had told us so”. He was gleeful that the US was being pulled into his war. He was almost drooling with the thought of all the American money flowing to his country and off all the dead Muslims. It was disgusting. Thanks to the NeoCons all of his heart's desires were fullfilled. Of course the Liberals would have done it also.

Molon Labe
06-27-2008, 12:40 PM
Thanks to the NeoCons all of his heart's desires were fullfilled. Of course the Liberals would have done it also.

And I'm certain you know that there is no difference. Neocons are F'n Liberals. And too many conservatives have bought their vile hook line and sinker. I was at one time one of them. :o

gator
06-27-2008, 01:23 PM
And I'm certain you know that there is no difference. Neocons are F'n Liberals. And too many conservatives have bought their vile hook line and sinker. I was at one time one of them. :o

Agreed.

Me too.

Getting off the Neo Con bandwagon is a hard thing to do, however you feel so much better once you do it. Everything becomes so much clearer to you then. You understand the mess we are in and why we are in it. You see that at best we will go the way of the Soviet Union but more likely to not even fare that well.

The only downside is that there is really no place to go. The Liberals are worse. The Libertarians have it right on some issues and wrong on others.

Odysseus
06-27-2008, 02:44 PM
Perpetual "war is the health of the state". Look it up
I guess you would have to believe that Lobbyists have way too much influence. If not, then you won't buy that AIPAC has the ability to sway U.S. foreign policy. Our governments are in complete symbiosis.
Then...low and behold the Cold war ends in the late 80's and there were no more demons to destroy. Untill 9-11
Then you have some talking heads calling themselves Neoconservatives: yet there's nothing conservative about a group of liberal Trotskyites who worship Wilsonian Idealism,and Leo Strauss who think the geopolitical order should conform to Western democracy...not by example mind you...but by force.
In the 90's their gains are slim and the Clinton administration gives them some insignificant credence, but he only bombs a few guys with limited military strikes on rogue states and won't implement their full goal in the promotion of "Democracy".
Then Bush comes to power and 9-11 happens and everyone is in fear of Muslims extremists. Bush basically gives them a blank check to mold the M.E. into their image. Bush has done nothing but listen to them for 8 years.
They believe in 3 main things.
Democratic Peace theory
Wilsonian Idealism in the vein of International Globalism
Preemptive war to accomplish these goals.
The strategy is to set up Iraq as a democracy in order to pacify the population to become pro Western and Israel - the only Democracy in the region.
Problem is...no one ever asked the important questions like whether the middle east, which is inherently tribal, is truly capable or even wanted western democracy....and nobody thought back to the failure of Wilsonian Idealism and remembered it was a farce.
Iraq had a whole hell of a lot less to do with WMD's and terrorism and much more to do about the grand scheme of Democratization and protecting Israel.
To claim Neocon beliefs are conservative is smack in the face to conservatism.
So basically anyone that supports these morons is a liberal statist dirtbag in my book. :D

When did this become Moonbat Underground?

First off, after the Cold War ended, the world became more unstable and dangerous, not less. Imagine a chess board where one player has left the game, but the pieces remain, only now, instead of being guided by a central patron, they are pursuing their own interests, which include tribal, ethnic and religious agendas. The period right after the end of the Cold War was marked by the first land war in Europe since WWII, warfare between Islamic states or proxies and non-Islamic states or peoples in the Philippines, Chechnya, Thailand, Nigeria and Sudan and ethnic/tribal conflicts throughout Africa. The Colombian FARC guerrilas lost their communist ideology and reverted to narcotrafficantes. North Korea began the open pursuit of a nuclear weapons program, something that they never had to do when they were under the Soviet nuclear umbrella. In addition, the remaining player on the chess board, the US, assumed that the defeat of the other player meant that it could stop watching the board. From 1992 through 2001, foreign policy was reduced to a series of sound bite events, rather than a set of policies that reflected a coherent view of the world and America's place in it. The void left by America's withdrawal and the USSR's collapse hastened Europe's decline as a military power, since they decided that there was no one to threaten them, and nothing worth fighting for, anyway. The hostile regional powers, however, saw their opportunities and began to take them, from the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, Kosovo, Albania and Rwanda to the territorial designs of Saddam Hussein in Kuwait. Finally, the collapse of the Cold War order freed up non-state players to pursue their agendas without concern for the goals of the Soviets, but with a new need to find alternative sources of revenue and ideological relevence. Radical Islam filled that void very nicely, especially since the Islamist states that sought to spread their ideology were also up to their ears in petro-dollars. The increasing OP-Tempo of terrorists during the 1990s against American targets reflected this change, as did the increasing cooperation between otherwise disparate criminal gangs, terror groups and failed states.

In other words, America has a choice. We can withdraw from the rest of the world and cede it to the chaotic actors who seek to expand their influence through violent jihad, or we can identify that American interest require a stable global political climate in which goods and people can move freely and safely, and terrorists cannot. That's not a Wilsonian ideal, it's a realistic one.

Molon Labe
06-27-2008, 02:59 PM
When did this become Moonbat Underground? .


Hastened Europe's military power? Germany is far more the military power now than they were in the post war world. That is delusional. And Europe hasn't had any military might for some time prior to the end of the cold war. :confused:


Guess you need the link too. :rolleyes:
Kirk is one of the founders of modern conservatism, but I doubt you'd know that.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/HL178.cfm

Odysseus
06-27-2008, 03:08 PM
I don't think "they" control the world. I have never said anything like that.

Well, that depends on whether you consider saying that Israel controls the US government to be "like" that.


I just looked at some basic facts.
Each man, woman and child in the US has to put up about $2,000 each for defense.
Each goddamn filthy Israeli only puts up a little over $1200.

So, do you consider each man, woman and child in Israel to be "goddamn filthy?" It's impossible to take you as anything but a vile bigot when you use that kind of language. That's not a rational argument, that's just blind hate. As for your "fact" about defense spending, the amount spent on Israel's defense by the US is just a few cents per American. It's only $2,000 if you assume that the entire defense budget is spent to benefit Israel. Even you can't be that insane.


I think we already know why you are biased and are incapable of putting the interest of the US ahead of a filthy Middle East country. I, on the other hand, am not saddle with conflicting loyalties. My loyalties are to the US.

The claim that an American Jew is covertly disloyal to America in favor of Israel is a disgusting lie, but I expect no less from a bigot. If you were truly loyal to the US, you'd welcome an ally which shares a similar governing system, economic model and has always sought to live in peace with its neighbors.


The goddamn Israelis have a rich country. Let them pay for their own friggin defense.
By the way, my reasoning applies to several other countries. For instance, a South Korean spends about the same amount in absolute dollars as an Israeli for defense, which is less than an American.

And yet, I've never heard you refer to the goddamn filthy South Koreans, just Israelis. Funny how you can refer to other nations, even violent, terrorist-sponsoring outlaw hellholes such as North Korea, Iran, Syria and Iraq without the same malice that drips from your keyboard whenever Israel is mentioned, and anyone who disagrees with you is slandered as disloyal to America due to either NeoCon ideals or a Jewish heritage. Do you really think that you are fooling anyone with this bigoted garbage, herr Gator?


Don't you think that would be something that would be considered a real strategic problem and addressed?

D'uh. That's what I do for a living.


And your damn right that they want to develop a nuke. That's a prime lesson concept of International Relations theory.
Whether we think so or not...they see the security dilemma as a zero sum game.
Sounds like your calling for the invasion of Iran!!? Good lord man!

Only if you can't read. What part of the following did you not understand?

Our best course of action is to fan the flames of that loathing through exposure of the government's crimes, both domestically and internationally, the dissemination of information through alternative broadcast media and the distribution of communications equipment to the opposition (Iranian bloggers are a massive source of pain to the regime). What we should not do is invade in force, unless the mullahs make good on their threat to produce nuclear weapons, at which point, we will have no choice.
And:

Our best course of action is to equip and support the massive Iranian resistance to the Mullahs and undermine them through information operations.
Does that sound like I'm advocating an invasion of Iran?


All pro Israel assholes want the US to attack Iran. That makes Israel safer. The pro Israel assholes wants us to kill every Arab and every Muslims and ever Persian and every Palestinian and anybody that opposes Israel. They like it like that.

Show me one person in the US government who advocates an attack on Iran.


I will never forget the afternoon of 911.
Everybody was in shock and countries from around the world were sending messages of support.
The friggin Israeli Ambassador came on TV. Instead of doing the decent thing like the other ambassadors he started in with his vile commentary about “Israeli had told us so”. He was gleeful that the US was being pulled into his war. He was almost drooling with the thought of all the American money flowing to his country and off all the dead Muslims. It was disgusting. Thanks to the NeoCons all of his heart's desires were fullfilled. Of course the Liberals would have done it also.

I guess that you've forgotten Saddam Hussein's speech in praise of the 9/11 highjackers and the celebrations among Palestinians. I have the video of them dancing in the streets of Gaza and the West Bank. But hey, you've more than made up for you shortcomings in memory by attributing drooling and glee to the Israeli ambassador. Your delusional antisemitic ravings are truly boundless.

Heil Gator!!!

LogansPapa
06-27-2008, 03:14 PM
Actually, our aid to The Star of David is about $35.75 per year for each American.;)

I'd rather buy some rice with mine and send it to the babies in NK.:cool:

Molon Labe
06-27-2008, 03:15 PM
Our best course of action is to fan the flames of that loathing through exposure of the government's crimes, both domestically and internationally, the dissemination of information through alternative broadcast media and the distribution of communications equipment to the opposition (Iranian bloggers are a massive source of pain to the regime). What we should not do is invade in force, unless the mullahs make good on their threat to produce nuclear weapons, at which point, we will have no choice.Our best course of action is to equip and support the massive Iranian resistance to the Mullahs and undermine them through information operations.



How do you think we would react if some Unilateral world power entity proposed this strategy against the U.S.? HMM?
What if we were on the receiving end of this policy. Do you just think our leaders would just throw up their hands and stop the behavior. No... we'd see it as an act of war and tell them to shove it up their ass. You don't have to guess, cause we threw the British out long ago.

Odysseus
06-27-2008, 03:16 PM
Hastened Europe's military power? Germany is far more the military power now than they were in the post war world. That is delusional. And Europe hasn't had any military might for some time prior to the end of the cold war. :confused:
Guess you need the link too. :rolleyes:
Kirk is one of the founders of modern conservatism, but I doubt you'd know that.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/HL178.cfm

Are you on drugs? I wrote that "the USSR's collapse hastened Europe's decline as a military power, since they decided that there was no one to threaten them, and nothing worth fighting for, anyway."

What color is the sky in your world?

Oh, and I know who Russell Kirk is, but please keep condescending to me. It make my correcting your obvious ignorance all the more fun.

Odysseus
06-27-2008, 03:25 PM
How do you think we would react if some Unilateral world power entity proposed this strategy against the U.S.? HMM?
What if we were on the receiving end of this policy. Do you just think our leaders would just throw up their hands and stop the behavior. No... we'd see it as an act of war and tell them to shove it up their ass. You don't have to guess, cause we threw the British out long ago.

Really? Been to a Saudi-subsidized Mosque lately? How about one of those Islamic studies centers at the Ivy League colleges (The Jihad can recruit at Harvard and Yale, but ROTC can't). And, of course, there's our media, the NY Times, Washington Post and LA Times, all of which routinely do their best to fill the American people with a fine loathing of the current administration. And, of course, this is nothing new. Declassified materials show that the Soviets were instrumental in influencing our major institutions to undermine the US opposition to their adventurism. The Nuclear Freeze movement was heavily subsidized by Moscow, as were lots of journalists (Just one example, I.F. Stone, was a paid agent of the Soviets)

What you fail to understand (okay, one of the many, many things which you fail to understand), is that we've been on the receiving end of such a program for decades. But in a democracy, we are free to counter that propaganda with facts. The Iranian people are already opposed to the regime, but they are splintered and have difficulty coordinating their efforts and disseminating the truth to each other and the outside world.

Molon Labe
06-27-2008, 03:45 PM
Are you on drugs? I wrote that "the USSR's collapse hastened Europe's decline as a military power, since they decided that there was no one to threaten them, and nothing worth fighting for, anyway."

What color is the sky in your world?

Oh, and I know who Russell Kirk is, but please keep condescending to me. It make my correcting your obvious ignorance all the more fun.

And I said.....Germany is stronger now than "before the cold war ended". When I said post war I meant WW2. That kinda goes against what you said..... And the rest of the European war machine did go the way of the do do....but I said it did so long "before the cold war ended".

Look we got off on the wrong foot. I'm not trying to condescend you amd I'm certainly not into ad hominem attacks..so I'll apoligse for condescension in my tone.......I haven't said that you are a "moonbat" or an "anti-semite" as you have so casually done to me.

If you know who Kirk is and I follow his influences on foreign policy then what exactly is the problem?

Odysseus
06-27-2008, 04:15 PM
And I said.....Germany is stronger now than "before the cold war ended". When I said post war I meant WW2. That kinda goes against what you said..... And the rest of the European war machine did go the way of the do do....but I said it did so long "before the cold war ended".
Look we got off on the wrong foot. I'm not trying to condescend you amd I'm certainly not into ad hominem attacks....I haven't said that you are a "moonbat" or an "anti-semite" as you have so casually done to me.
If you know who Kirk is and I follow his influences on foreign policy then what exactly is the problem?

Okay... You seem sane, at least for the moment, and certainly when compared to LogansPapa and Gator (who really are antisemitic idiots). Truce. :)

I'm going to have to disagree with you on Germany's military power. During the Cold War the Bundeswehr had a strength of 495,000 military and 170,000 civilian personnel, but after reunification it was reduced to 370,000 military personnel. Also, the former East German Nationale Volksarmee (NVA) was disbanded, and while a very small portion of its personnel and material were absorbed into the Bundeswehr, it was nowhere near the prior Cold War strength. In addition, our percentage of German defense has declined with the BRAC closures of multiple bases in Germany and the withdrawal of several active divisions and ACRs, which means that the Bundeswehr has even greater responsibilities and a smaller force with which to meet them.

Germany, BTW, is even weaker than this assessment, due to the declining birthrates among non-Moslem Germans and the increasing birthrates among Moslems in Germany. The most likely scenarios for these disparate demographics are that Germany will be a Moslem majority state by 2100, with much of Europe following.

ConJinx
06-27-2008, 04:26 PM
Sorry...I don't have the inclination to entertain those that "think in slogan's and talk in bullets" - George Orwell

You keep on getting force fed by Fox, CNN and MSNBC...I'll pass.

you've cast quite a dispersion on my character without knowing a thing about me. you can call me many things, but a blind, mindless simpleton I am not.

Molon Labe
06-27-2008, 04:37 PM
you've cast quite a dispersion on my character without knowing a thing about me. you can call me many things, but a blind, mindless simpleton I am not.

Sorry..It's just that some of us are sick of the soundbite arguments lately....and all I had to go on was "Them or us"..."best to choose sides" and "fight or fly".
I apologise.... I'm willing to retract such statement if you are willing to make an attempt.

Molon Labe
06-27-2008, 04:50 PM
Okay... You seem sane, at least for the moment, and certainly when compared to LogansPapa and Gator (who really are antisemitic idiots). Truce. :)

I'm going to have to disagree with you on Germany's military power. During the Cold War the Bundeswehr had a strength of 495,000 military and 170,000 civilian personnel, but after reunification it was reduced to 370,000 military personnel. Also, the former East German Nationale Volksarmee (NVA) was disbanded, and while a very small portion of its personnel and material were absorbed into the Bundeswehr, it was nowhere near the prior Cold War strength. In addition, our percentage of German defense has declined with the BRAC closures of multiple bases in Germany and the withdrawal of several active divisions and ACRs, which means that the Bundeswehr has even greater responsibilities and a smaller force with which to meet them.

Germany, BTW, is even weaker than this assessment, due to the declining birthrates among non-Moslem Germans and the increasing birthrates among Moslems in Germany. The most likely scenarios for these disparate demographics are that Germany will be a Moslem majority state by 2100, with much of Europe following.

I don't necessarily believe that a leaner German force is less effective. The German army prior to the end of the CW, as I understood it, was pretty weak as an effective fighting force compared to today . You can certainly have more numbers and material and be less effective on the battlefield. (Take Iraq circa 1990)

First..I'm not crazy nor an anti-semite. After 8 years of watching this geopolitical game play out...I've changed my mind about a great many things.
I'm convinced of several things:

That the U.S. military is a pawn in a foreign policy designed by a liberal element that has influenced the current administration. This is not a conspiracy....Paul Wolfowitz is a real person who has said as much about his goals in this administration. It is well document.

(See Russell Kirks essay...it's hardly moonbat material. That actually seems silly to me as Kirk is one of my conservative heros and I'm surprised he isn't more respected at a site called CU)

That our leaders have no clue as to what the midldle east culture is about and do not understand the enemy any better now than they did in 03'. See any and all work by Michael Scheuer for sanity on this issue.

That we are destroying our economy based on these policies. (See yesterday's Dow)

I appreciate your sanity as well.

Man this thread has gotten way off track...Remind me to go back to my earlier posts and stay on task.
Have a good weekend...I'll probably not be able to read much for some time.:D

ConJinx
06-27-2008, 04:59 PM
I just don't type well, and it is unfortunate Buuuuuttt, short punchy sound bites are best understood by the morons I'm used to being ignored by. That last sentence is a poor attempt at a joke.

Odysseus
06-27-2008, 05:55 PM
I don't necessarily believe that a leaner German force is less effective. The German army prior to the end of the CW, as I understood it, was pretty weak as an effective fighting force compared to today . You can certainly have more numbers and material and be less effective on the battlefield. (Take Iraq circa 1990)

Yeah, but that isn't what the Germans have done. With the new NATO members, the frontier has moved east to the Polish, Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian borders. Germany is no longer on the edge of a massive Soviet army, and they have chosen to draw down their forces and eliminate both critical force structure and weapons systems, as well as defense allocations. They are spending less on maintenance, procurement, R&D and replacements than at any time during the Cold War. Their readiness is much poorer than it was, but Germany is only one of many NATO countries that has decided that peace is a permanent state that doesn't require readiness to maintain it.


That the U.S. military is a pawn in a foreign policy designed by a liberal element that has influenced the current administration. This is not a conspiracy....Paul Wolfowitz is a real person who has said as much about his goals in this administration. It is well document.

I wouldn't call Paul Wolfowitz a liberal. Also, if you get the chance to review the Wolfowitz Doctrine, you'll see that he is not trying to undermine the US or weaken us.


"Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival, either on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere, that poses a threat on the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to general global power."


That our leaders have no clue as to what the midldle east culture is about and do not understand the enemy any better now than they did in 03'. See any and all work by Michael Scheuer for sanity on this issue.

Except that we have done a massive change in how we approach the Middle East. The military has completely retooled the training to include cultural and historical studies of the region, with emphasis on tribal structures and the dynamics of the various regional powers. This was the result of GEN Petraeus' reinterpretation of counterinsurgency doctine and his application of new standards of training and conduct, and the end product has been the defeat of Al Qaeda in Iraq. In fact, our leaders have a much better understanding of the culture of the Middle East than they did five years ago, especially at the Brigade level. Our political leaders have learned a great deal, also, although some have remained willfully blind to the realities on the ground, but for the most part, these are partisans whose opposition to the war has been based on political expediency rather than actual concern for America.

Again, I don't share your opinion of Scheuer. I consider the CIA and state department to be farther to the left than just about any other part of the foreign policy apparatus (DOD, NSA, etc.). For a far better overview of Islam, you really ought to pick up anything by Bernard Lewis. For the political structures and how they are shaped by the culture, The Closed Circle, by David Pryce Jones, is a superb text. For the current political situation in Iran, Michael Ledeen is required reading, and for the rest of the Arab world, Daniel Pipes.


That we are destroying our economy based on these policies. (See yesterday's Dow)

The Dow fluctuates daily. You have to examine the longterm trend, and the trend has been a steady increase since the early 1980s, with corrections in 1987, 1991 and 2000. Using yesterday's score as an arbiter of the overall health of the economy is like using yesterday's box scores to determine the American League standings (wait a minute, the Yankees won yesterday... Hmmm...). What you have to look at are the GDP numbers (continually rising for almost twenty years), the defecits and national debt as a percentage of GDP (the raw numbers aren't adjusted for inflation and are meaningless in and of themselves), home ownership rates (not the raw number of foreclosures, a meaningless stat, but a comparison of foreclosures against overall home ownership rates, again compared with previous rates) and employment stats. This, in turn, brings us back to the topic of this thread, which is the US unemployment rate. 5.5% unemployment is marginally higher than the record low achieved earlier in the Bush administration of 4.5%, but it is still far lower than the average for the last two and a half decades, which were a period of record prosperity, and still lower than the 1970s, when double-digit unemployment, inflation and interest rates were summed up into one statistic, the misery index. The economy is fundamentally sound, but for those who have a vested interest in regime change in the US, that message is being drowned out by relentlessly negative coverage.

I'll be on leave next week. Taking my family to the beach. If I don't hear from you, stay sane and avod Loganspapa and Gator, but I repeat myself... :D

gator
06-27-2008, 06:05 PM
It's only $2,000 if you assume that the entire defense budget is spent to benefit Israel. Even you can't be that insane.

According to the figures I have seen the conservative number is $200 billion and the high number is a trillion dollars of the amount of money we have given the bastards over the years. A trillion dollars is one tenth the amount of debt we have now.

That figure doesn't include the tremendous damage done to our economy in the 1970s because of the Arab oil embargo. It doesn't include the trillion dollar hit to the economy because of 911. It doesn't include the thousands of Americans lives lost fighting an enemy that is pissed at us for supporting Israel. It doesn't include the vast amounts of money we have spent paying off the enemies of Israel to leave them alone, like Egypt.

That cost doesn’t include the lives of the brave men aboard the USS Liberty or the lives of the CIA operatives lost when the Israelis sold them down the river after stealing the intelligence from my country. It doesn’t include the lack of integrity our country lost in giving the Israelis a pass on attacking us. It doesn’t include the lack of immorality our country has gone through in supporting murders of women and children.

We have lost a lot supporting Israel. Much, much more than a “a few cent per person”.



The claim that an American Jew is covertly disloyal to America in favor of Israel is a disgusting lie, but I expect no less from a bigot.

All I know about you is what I see you post about. You support a filthy Middle East country that has attacked America and killed our brave servicemen and spied on us and sold the information to the Soviets. You support a country that uses money paid to a lobby to bribe our gutless politicians to give Israel money and to fight Israel's wars for them.

At a time when we are running a deficit and have high taxation you support giving money to brutal apartheid Middle East country, of which America has no security interest in supporting.




And yet, I've never heard you refer to the goddamn filthy South Koreans, just Israelis.

Korea has always been a good ally, unlike Israel. I served along side them in Vietnam. A group of Korean soldiers saved my life one night when I got in over my head in a bar fight in Nha Trang, RVN. They are decent people, unlike the Israelis. However, it is time to cut them lose and let go it alone.


I guess that you've forgotten Saddam Hussein's speech in praise of the 9/11 highjackers and the celebrations among Palestinians. I have the video of them dancing in the streets of Gaza and the West Bank. But hey, you've more than made up for you shortcomings in memory by attributing drooling and glee to the Israeli ambassador. Your delusional antisemitic ravings are truly boundless.

Every goddamn Arab and most of the Persians in the Middle East are pissed at us for supporting Israel. About a billion of them. If I want the sonofabitches to be pissed at me I want it to be for a good reason, not because we support a filthy brutal apartheid Middle East country like Israel.

Yea, yea I know, I am real Nazi meannie because I love America more than Israel.

Molon Labe
06-27-2008, 06:37 PM
I just don't type well, and it is unfortunate Buuuuuttt, short punchy sound bites are best understood by the morons I'm used to being ignored by. That last sentence is a poor attempt at a joke.

:o you caught me on a bad day...
It's sometimes not so easy to tell these days ...and in my own party. RINOS you know.... Sheesh!!:rolleyes:

Sonnabend
06-27-2008, 06:45 PM
You support a country that uses money paid to a lobby to bribe our gutless politicians to give Israel money and to fight Israel's wars for them.

So Iraq was for the benefit of Israel.

Right.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Molon Labe
06-27-2008, 07:17 PM
give me one person in the US government who advocates an attack on Iran?

Bill Kristol does.....

I wanted to address this before I go offline for a while...It was a fair question. I watched William (Bill) Kristol very closely over the last 8 years. I used to agree with alot of his principles. He is very hawkish and very much on the pulse of this administration. He recently said this.


"a U.S. attack against Iran after the election is more likely should Barack Obama win"

What he meant was ominous....He means that Bush may very well take care of business before he leaves office as he doesn't think Obama will handle Iran "the right way". Presumably he thinks McCain will take on the Bush way.

That alarms me. It should alarm everyone that cares about the principle of war making power being up to the legislature as it was intended.

SarasotaRepub
06-27-2008, 08:09 PM
Actually, our aid to The Star of David is about $35.75 per year for each American.;)

I'd rather buy some rice with mine and send it to the babies in NK.:cool:

That's cause you're a dumbass.
:p:D

Odysseus
06-27-2008, 08:09 PM
Bill Kristol does.....
I wanted to address this before I go offline for a while...It was a fair question. I watched William (Bill) Kristol very closely over the last 8 years. I used to agree with alot of his principles. He is very hawkish and very much on the pulse of this administration. He recently said this.
What he meant was ominous....He means that Bush may very well take care of business before he leaves office as he doesn't think Obama will handle Iran "the right way". Presumably he thinks McCain will take on the Bush way.
That alarms me. It should alarm everyone that cares about the principle of war making power being up to the legislature as it was intended.

Bill Kristol is not part of the administration. He's a writer, editor and pundit, but he does not speak for the administration.

The war making power was never entirely up to the legislature. The congress has the authority to declare war and provide the regulations for the military. The President, as Commander-in-Chief, has the authority to deploy troops as he deems necessary, without congressional approval. Many of the wars fought in the history of the US were not declared, including the Barbary Pirate War, the various Indian Wars, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Aguinaldo Insurrection, the Moro Insurrection, the Boxer Rebellion (US forces participated) and various smaller interventions in Central American. The one thing that the founders did not envision was the courts making policy for wartime operations.

Odysseus
06-27-2008, 08:12 PM
Actually, our aid to The Star of David is about $35.75 per year for each American.;)
I'd rather buy some rice with mine and send it to the babies in NK.:cool:

They'll never get it. It will end up paying for about half of one of Kim Jong Il's preferred bottles of cognac. But, given your attitude towards Jews and Israel, perhaps you could send a matching amount to the local KKK chapter or the Robert Byrd reelection fund (or is that redundant?).
:p

gator
06-27-2008, 08:56 PM
Odysessus

I am thinking about running for President since neither one of those two yahoos running now is worth a shit.

I will see about getting on the ballot in all 50 states and raising enough money so I can get my message out.

My message will be simple. Cut back on spending. For every dollar we reduce the budget then half will go as tax relief and half to retire the debt.

I will run on a platform to complete the mission in Iraq and then slowly get out of the business of giving a shit about Middle East politics, unless it threatens our oil supply. If anybody fucks with us I will kick their ass.

I will withdraw troops from many of the overseas locations. I will deploy many of the returning troops along the southern border to seal it against the invasion.

After I get sworn in I will retire to the Oval office. I will immediately call in the Joint Chief of Staff and tell him to prepare to attack Israel. I will send a force to Israel and kill a ratio of ten to one what they did to the Liberty. I will insist that the Israeli casualties be at least 350.

After the attack I will recall our ambassador and diplomatic and military liaisons to Israel. I will refuse to spend another dime on Israel or allow the transfer of any spare parts or weapons technology or intelligence. I will put Israel on the State Department’s list of terrorist states and refuse to allow any of their citizens to enter the country. I will kick every Israeli government employee out of the US because I don’t want any more spying.

Now since you are an officer in the US Army I will assign you to participate in the attack on Israel.

My question to you. Given that my job is Commander in Chief will you lead the attack and do what you are ordered to do? I know this is far reach hypothetical but I want you tell me that your loyalties would be to the US and not to Israel.

I bet given the scenario I presented you wouldn’t do it. Would you attack Israel to avenge the crewmembers of the USS Liberty if ordered to do so?

I will bet you weasel out of this someway. I think we all know where your real loyalties lie and it is not with the US when it comes to Israel, is it?

You try to pretend that Israel's interest and the US interest are the same but you miss the boat big time on that BS, don't you?

SarasotaRepub
06-27-2008, 09:07 PM
OK...I can't stop laughing now.

:D

Zathras
06-27-2008, 11:41 PM
I am thinking about running for President since neither one of those two yahoos running now is worth a shit.

Hmmm, I guess someone had to take over the nutball portion of the ballot. Make sure you advertise your candacy over at Stormfront.com and other white supremacy websites to get the vote out.

John
06-28-2008, 05:08 AM
Hmmm, I guess someone had to take over the nutball portion of the ballot. Make sure you advertise your candacy over at Stormfront.com and other white supremacy websites to get the vote out.

In addition to Stormfront, I think this message will appeal to everyone who's ARMs just took them for a ride. It will probably also appeal to anyone who has a problem paying $4.00+ for gas. Moving along, it will probably also appeal to everyone who doesn't like to give away money to foreigners for free. In a grander scope, with enough education and common sense, it just might appeal to anyone who realizes that an all powerful federal government wasn't in the plans and specs for this country, and that tidbit was left out for some good damned reasons. Don't take my word for it. There's plenty of documentation at your local library that outlines the concerns of the antifederalists at your local library. Take a gander, you'll be surprised.