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Calypso Jones
01-31-2011, 09:36 PM
What it looks like from the back.

http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=57742

Wei Wu Wei
01-31-2011, 10:46 PM
That's about right. They are side-by-side in their actions but the right's rhetoric paints this liberal-centrist who is turning more and more conservative each week as a radical socialist. it's so ridiculous.

i'm going to guess that anyone who calls Obama a marxist has never read Marx in their lives (except for maybe reading a few exceprts in their Sociology 101 class in college or trying to look cool by carrying around the communist manifesto in high school).

Calypso Jones
01-31-2011, 10:49 PM
How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin." -- Ronald Reagan

:D

Wei Wu Wei
01-31-2011, 11:14 PM
How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin." -- Ronald Reagan

:D

the best part is everyone who loves to quote this has never even read Marx or Lenin

Calypso Jones
01-31-2011, 11:47 PM
and no doubt you have. So tell me, do you prescribe to all marx theories or do you have problems with any of them? And more important if you do believe in them, do you follow them as best you can...and how has that worked out for ya?

PoliCon
01-31-2011, 11:54 PM
the best part is everyone who loves to quote this has never even read Marx or Lenin

says who? I like that quote. Are you saying that I have not read Marx and Lenin? BTW - the quote does not say that those who understand Marx and Lenin have read them - just that they understand them and that's why we oppose the idiotic bastards.

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 12:10 AM
probably off grabbing his book somewhere reading up on what he forgot.

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 12:12 AM
says who? I like that quote. Are you saying that I have not read Marx and Lenin? BTW - the quote does not say that those who understand Marx and Lenin have read them - just that they understand them and that's why we oppose the idiotic bastards.

if you really believe you can understand Marx without reading Marx then i probably shouldn't try to discuss Marx with you

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 12:13 AM
probably off grabbing his book somewhere reading up on what he forgot.

yeah I do this fairly often actually. do you consider it a bad thing?

PoliCon
02-01-2011, 12:14 AM
if you really believe you can understand Marx without reading Marx then i probably shouldn't try to discuss Marx with you

are you saying that I have not read marx?

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 12:16 AM
I don't know if you have. If you have we can probably have some very interesting conversations.

I've read a little bit of Marx as well as Lenin but I am struggling to understand and re-understand it every time I pick up the text.

I don't know if you have, but this:


the quote does not say that those who understand Marx and Lenin have read them - just that they understand them

logically implies that it is possible to understand Marx and Lenin without reading them, which I vehemently disagree with.

PoliCon
02-01-2011, 12:20 AM
I don't know if you have. If you have we can probably have some very interesting conversations.

I've read a little bit of Marx as well as Lenin but I am struggling to understand and re-understand it every time I pick up the text.

I don't know if you have, but this:



logically implies that it is possible to understand Marx and Lenin without reading them, which I vehemently disagree with.

simple question - must I necessarily have first hand experience of a thing to be able to understand it?

Rockntractor
02-01-2011, 12:21 AM
This is everything you need to know about Marx.
Communist Body Count: 149,469,610
http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives/communistbodycount.php

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 12:22 AM
I don't know if you have. If you have we can probably have some very interesting conversations.

I've read a little bit of Marx as well as Lenin but I am struggling to understand and re-understand it every time I pick up the text.

I don't know if you have, but this:



logically implies that it is possible to understand Marx and Lenin without reading them, which I vehemently disagree with.

If you have to struggle to understand it, what good is it?

PoliCon
02-01-2011, 12:24 AM
If you have to struggle to understand it, what good is it?

oh well it's because Marx was so much brighter than the rest of us you see . . . . :rolleyes:

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 12:25 AM
simple question - must I have first hand experience of a thing to be able to understand it?

you are getting abstract and into the realm of epistemology. here things get tricky and it doesn't help this discussion to derail it. there are different prerequisites for depending on whether it's a book, whether it's (capital T)Truth, whether it's Love, whether it's an action, whether it's a Person, and so on...

however, when it comes to Symbolic knowledge, like, for example, understanding theoretical frameworks (like Freud, Marx, Lacan, Engels, Lenin, ect), then yes you do have to have read the text to understand it.

Rockntractor
02-01-2011, 12:26 AM
oh well it's because Marx was so much brighter than the rest of us you see . . . . :rolleyes:

The philosophy created by Wei's idol has killed almost 150 million people, but that is not enough for Wei.

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 12:27 AM
If you have to struggle to understand it, what good is it?

anything that's really of value requires struggle, including (especially) Understanding

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 12:27 AM
The philosophy created by Wei's idol has killed almost 150 million people, but that is not enough for Wei.

don't worry if you have a big enough Gun no philosophy can hurt you or steal your woman

PoliCon
02-01-2011, 12:28 AM
you are getting abstract and into the realm of epistemology. here things get tricky and it doesn't help this discussion to derail it. there are different prerequisites for depending on whether it's a book, whether it's (capital T)Truth, whether it's Love, whether it's an action, whether it's a Person, and so on...

however, when it comes to Symbolic knowledge, like, for example, understanding theoretical frameworks (like Freud, Marx, Lacan, Engels, Lenin, ect), then yes you do have to have read the text to understand it.

And what if someone could demonstrate a grasp of the knowledge without having read the work? I think you are making a fatal assumption.

Rockntractor
02-01-2011, 12:29 AM
don't worry if you have a big enough Gun no philosophy can hurt you or steal your woman

How many men woman and children must die to prove your kind wrong, you filthy bastard.

PoliCon
02-01-2011, 12:31 AM
The philosophy created by Wei's idol has killed almost 150 million people, but that is not enough for Wei.

actually, in my opinion those numbers are VERY low.

PoliCon
02-01-2011, 12:32 AM
don't worry if you have a big enough Gun no philosophy can hurt you or steal your woman

It must pain you to be so superior. :rolleyes:

Rockntractor
02-01-2011, 12:32 AM
actually, in my opinion those numbers are VERY low.

Quite probably so but it doesn't matter to Wei, he just mocked them!

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 12:33 AM
well exactly who was Marx writing for then?? Certainly not the capitalist pigs?

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 12:34 AM
and no doubt you have. So tell me, do you prescribe to all marx theories or do you have problems with any of them?

I don't pretend to understand them. Marxism is a framework from which you can examine things. Every framework is self-limiting, there is no "metalanguage", but it is an extremely useful framework to make sense out of all the craziness that's happening in the world.

That being said, I'm not Marxian scholar. I do self-research and I participate in group study sessions but I am not pretentious enough to claim to fully understand Marx.

I do my best to flesh out my own understanding knowing that it is going to continue to evolve.



And more important if you do believe in them, do you follow them as best you can...and how has that worked out for ya?

Marxism isn't something to "follow". It's a perspective from which to view the world, one which doesn't have to be tied to my identity. That is, unlike some people who fully identify with being a liberal or conservative, and thus become emotionally invested in that label, and thus subconsciously act inways that will protect that framework - I don't look at Marxism as something which I am, it is rather something which I use, and it is not always appropriate in all circumstances.

So no, I don't "follow" Marx (whatever that means), but I do work very hard to understand Marx and that understanding makes the world seem a lot less chaotic (from my perspective), although not necessarily better.

PoliCon
02-01-2011, 12:34 AM
Quite probably so but it doesn't matter to Wei, he just mocked them!

well I'm sure wee wee is just using the old adage - you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. . . .

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 12:35 AM
How many men woman and children must die to prove your kind wrong, you filthy bastard.

you already know my answer


all of them ;)

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 12:37 AM
well I'm sure wee wee is just using the old adage - you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. . . .

i had a three-egg Soviet Omelet today and i only needed to break a dozen eggs! :D

Rockntractor
02-01-2011, 12:39 AM
well I'm sure wee wee is just using the old adage - you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. . . .

Here are some of Wei's eggs, I'm sure he will give an lol.
http://www.genocidecurriculum.org/photos/holodomor2.jpg

PoliCon
02-01-2011, 12:41 AM
Here are some of Wei's eggs, I'm sure he will give an lol.
http://www.genocidecurriculum.org/photos/holodomor2.jpg

remember - with the left - the ends justify the means.

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 12:41 AM
I don't pretend to understand them. Marxism is a framework from which you can examine things. Every framework is self-limiting, there is no "metalanguage", but it is an extremely useful framework to make sense out of all the craziness that's happening in the world.

That being said, I'm not Marxian scholar. I do self-research and I participate in group study sessions but I am not pretentious enough to claim to fully understand Marx.

I do my best to flesh out my own understanding knowing that it is going to continue to evolve.




Marxism isn't something to "follow". It's a perspective from which to view the world, one which doesn't have to be tied to my identity. That is, unlike some people who fully identify with being a liberal or conservative, and thus become emotionally invested in that label, and thus subconsciously act inways that will protect that framework - I don't look at Marxism as something which I am, it is rather something which I use, and it is not always appropriate in all circumstances.

So no, I don't "follow" Marx (whatever that means), but I do work very hard to understand Marx and that understanding makes the world seem a lot less chaotic (from my perspective), although not necessarily better.

the more experienced mature person in me is distressed to find that there are young people willing to waste their time on this. But i recognize the reality of it even if it does sadden me.

So in what ways does the 'study' of marx help you to view the world in a less chaotic way.

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 12:49 AM
well. OKAY. It must really simplify things for you to divide the world up into have and have nots. The Bourgoisie and the Proletariat?

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 12:51 AM
the more experienced mature person in me is distressed to find that there are young people willing to waste their time on this. But i recognize the reality of it even if it does sadden me.

So in what ways does the 'study' of marx help you to view the world in a less chaotic way.

it provides one framework, understanding the flow and functioning of Capital and Class Struggle as a means to analyze what is happening both in history and today.

Just like Freudian theory can offer incredible insight in literature, film, and even day-to-day interactions with other people, as well as self-insight (also called Wisdom in some cultures), Marxian theory can offer incredible insight in society, culture, and larger scale economic phenomenon.

of course this presupposes that one has already taken a deconstruction path towards their own ideology, asking themselves the fundamental questions that will undermine their "common sense" and force them to face confusion, to face uncertainty, to face the Void of life that is pure potentiality. if a person still instinctively reacts based on what they've always known but never questioned, then this is not for them, they need to do some more soul searching.

more specifically though, Marxist theory helps me to understand everything from why a thing costs what it does at a store and why money is valuable, to more complex things like the motion of civilizations or the current state of history-in-progress.

I used to see things in a liberal/conservative way, listening to all of the stupid talking points on CNN or Fox News, but Marxist theory allows one to see past all of the stupid artificial divisions of Republican and Democrat, Liberal and Conservative, and examines the reality of how Capital flows and rules a society.

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 12:52 AM
So, you believe that for one person to be successful then another has to do without?

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 12:53 AM
well. OKAY. It must really simplify things for you to divide the world up into have and have nots. The Bourgoisie and the Proletariat?

No it's not that.

Step 1: forget everything you think you know about Marx.

until you get past this one it is best to avoid making definitive statements about his theory

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 12:54 AM
Let's stop for a second. I need to get a little perspective about you. Are you an American? Are you a university student or are you a graduate? Working? Field?

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 12:56 AM
Keep in mind that we are living in a society that has been extremely anti-communist, anti-socialist, anti-Marx for nearly a century now. we are living in a culture that has equated Marxism with evil, or totalitarianism, or Stalinism. We are living in a culture where most of us grew up seeing commies being kiled on TV (or in real life).

Any sort of common sense knowledge of Marx in our culture has been tainted, if you want to get a feel for Marx you need to forget all of the "common knowledge" and start from scratch. put your prejudices aside for a moment and look at it in a purely academic sense if that helps.

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 12:56 AM
No it's not that.

Step 1: forget everything you think you know about Marx.

until you get past this one it is best to avoid making definitive statements about his theory

i can't tell you how much this disturbs me.

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 12:57 AM
Let's stop for a second. I need to get a little perspective about you. Are you an American? Are you a university student or are you a graduate? Working? Field?

You don't need to get a perspective on me. It will only serve to color my message with preconceived associations that you carry with you.

Theory works best in it's pure form, I don't want my own personal flaws to taint the theory that is not my own.

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 12:57 AM
well give it to me untainted then.;-D

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 01:01 AM
So, you believe that for one person to be successful then another has to do without?

are you thinking?

PoliCon
02-01-2011, 01:01 AM
Keep in mind that we are living in a society that has been extremely anti-communist, anti-socialist, anti-Marx for nearly a century now. we are living in a culture that has equated Marxism with evil, or totalitarianism, or Stalinism. We are living in a culture where most of us grew up seeing commies being kiled on TV (or in real life).

Any sort of common sense knowledge of Marx in our culture has been tainted, if you want to get a feel for Marx you need to forget all of the "common knowledge" and start from scratch. put your prejudices aside for a moment and look at it in a purely academic sense if that helps.

Anything that deprives people of liberty and/or property is by it's very nature evil.

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 01:03 AM
Academically and economically i do not agree with marx that for one person to be successful another has to do without. That has nothing to do with tainted cultural information.

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 01:10 AM
Academically and economically i do not agree with marx that for one person to be successful another has to do without. That has nothing to do with tainted cultural information.

what do you mean by successful?

multi-billionaire successful or comfortable home and family and food and clothes and entertainment middle class successful? (i'm assuming you mean money when you say success)

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 01:10 AM
I'll let you define the term success since you're the expert. OR how do you think Marx defined Success?

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 01:12 AM
Or maybe Marx just means that for one person to SURVIVE, another has to do without? is that it?

He did say that Mankind SURVIVES by his Labor.

lacarnut
02-01-2011, 01:13 AM
if you really believe you can understand Marx without reading Marx then i probably shouldn't try to discuss Marx with you

Then you should not try to discuss Obamacare. Moron.

PoliCon
02-01-2011, 01:13 AM
what do you mean by successful?

multi-billionaire successful or comfortable home and family and food and clothes and entertainment middle class successful? (i'm assuming you mean money when you say success)

when you get rid of the rich - the middle class then become . . . the rich. . . .

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 01:17 AM
I don't know but i got a sneaking suspicion someone is bs'ing me.

Rockntractor
02-01-2011, 01:22 AM
I don't know but i got a sneaking suspicion someone is bs'ing me.

It's MaoWei!

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 01:37 AM
You don't need to get a perspective on me. It will only serve to color my message with preconceived associations that you carry with you.

Theory works best in it's pure form, I don't want my own personal flaws to taint the theory that is not my own.

Darlin'. you are so full of it. And i mean that in the nicest way. I pray, i really do, that at some point in the near future you will come to your senses.

Wei Wu Wei
02-01-2011, 01:43 AM
Darlin'. you are so full of it. And i mean that in the nicest way. I pray, i really do, that at some point in the near future you will come to your senses.

i know

Calypso Jones
02-01-2011, 02:25 AM
I was just reading 50 most dangerous liberals. And they're not liberals. They're marxists. Are these the kinds of people you want directing your life? We've already seen the double standard. Inevitable in Marxism.

FeebMaster
02-01-2011, 02:35 AM
Damnit. I thought we were going to have a perfectly good Reagan bash and you're all arguing about the bearded wonder.

Rockntractor
02-01-2011, 02:58 AM
Damnit. I thought we were going to have a perfectly good Reagan bash and you're all arguing about the bearded wonder.

You would be a tyrant if we elected you!:D

FeebMaster
02-01-2011, 03:07 AM
You would be a tyrant if we elected you!:D

Almost certainly. I'd build a government so vile they'd speak about it in fearful whispers for a hundred generations after it fell. Probably while trying to emulate it.

Rockntractor
02-01-2011, 03:22 AM
Almost certainly. I'd build a government so vile they'd speak about it in fearful whispers for a hundred generations after it fell. Probably while trying to emulate it.

So would I, I get a warm fuzzy feeling thinking about it!:)

NJCardFan
02-01-2011, 10:32 AM
What pro-communist and socialist knuckleheads don't seem to grasp is that the more you try to level the playing field, the wider the gap between the haves and the have nots gets. Remember 1984. You had the Proles, the every day drones going about their lives. Then you had the outer party, these are the upper level government workers, like Winston Smith who's job was to rewrite history...literally. Then there was the inner party. These were the haves. The power. And the gap between the inner party and the proles is as wide as the Grand Canyon. But 99% of the population will have shit with no chance for advancement. This is a world wee wee wants.