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megimoo
02-02-2011, 08:01 AM
Bill O'Reilly Blows Up At Alan Colmes, Challenges Sam Donaldson to Come on Fox and Defend Thanking Al Jazeera

On Tuesday, Fox News's Bill O'Reilly invited Alan Colmes and Monica Crowley on his program to discuss the matter, and by the end of the segment, O'Reilly was practically screaming at Sean Hannity's former partner (video follows with commentary):

It really is amazing how these guys at Fox put up with Colmes who just seems like nothing but a liberal antagonist.As for Donaldson, he's never struck me as a man that wouldn't stand up to a challenge.

Although I couldn't identify via LexisNexis Sam ever being on O'Reilly's program, he has commented about the "Factor" host with O'Reilly responding on December 19, 2005:
snip.
Sam Donaldson Thanks Al Jazeera Egypt Uprising ABC News Mediaite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqLzZkfTjmE

Bill O'Reilly Blows Up At Alan Colmes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YdPxr9LWKw


http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2011/02/02/bill-oreilly-blows-alan-colmes-challenges-sam-donaldson-come-fox-and-#ixzz
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SaintLouieWoman
02-02-2011, 08:10 AM
Colmes is indeed a rodent or worse. He overtalked Monica Crowley and spouted his usual stuff. I'm amazed that O'Reilly puts up with him on the show. I've noticed he's not on Hannity at all. Despite what Hannity said when Colmes left (they were friends personally, blah blah), his actions speak louder than his words. Colmes does not appear wth Hannity.

I'm amazed at the attitude of so many far left liberals on the events in Egypt. They don't seem to grasp the consequences if the entire middle East is in the hands of the Muslim brotherhood. Do they even have a clue of the economic and security issues?

txradioguy
02-02-2011, 10:57 AM
Colmes is indeed a rodent or worse. He overtalked Monica Crowley and spouted his usual stuff. I'm amazed that O'Reilly puts up with him on the show. I've noticed he's not on Hannity at all. Despite what Hannity said when Colmes left (they were friends personally, blah blah), his actions speak louder than his words. Colmes does not appear wth Hannity.

I'm amazed at the attitude of so many far left liberals on the events in Egypt. They don't seem to grasp the consequences if the entire middle East is in the hands of the Muslim brotherhood. Do they even have a clue of the economic and security issues?

I don't think the Libs care. A) They see it as a potential with the evil U.S. and it's jingoistic hegemony (blech!) and B) it has the potential to give the left someone to beat up on their second favorite whipping boy behind the U.S....Israel.

NJCardFan
02-02-2011, 11:14 AM
Do you know that Colmes and Crowley are brother and sister in law?

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 11:30 AM
I'm going to guess, once again, that people who have problems with Al Jazeera dont even watch it.

Al Jazeera has been, BY FAR, doing the best job as reporters of covering this event. they're even having their own staff being arrested for showing the action on the streets rather than just parroting the Egyption State Television.


Al Jazeera is an excellent news organization.

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 11:33 AM
Colmes is indeed a rodent or worse. He overtalked Monica Crowley and spouted his usual stuff. I'm amazed that O'Reilly puts up with him on the show. I've noticed he's not on Hannity at all. Despite what Hannity said when Colmes left (they were friends personally, blah blah), his actions speak louder than his words. Colmes does not appear wth Hannity.

I'm amazed at the attitude of so many far left liberals on the events in Egypt. They don't seem to grasp the consequences if the entire middle East is in the hands of the Muslim brotherhood. Do they even have a clue of the economic and security issues?

It's not about that.

It's their revolution, this is their moment, this is their country, this is their future. It's not about america or americans they aren't doing it for us. They're doing it for themselves.

If someone like the Muslim brotherhood gains traction in the area, we must ask ourselves why they are so popular. For now though, we are seeing outbursts of freedom.

This is what freedom means, it means sometimes they may choose something that we don't like, we are not the worlds mother or father, it's not our place to determine the validity or desirability of the emancipatory projects of other peoples.

megimoo
02-02-2011, 11:35 AM
I'm going to guess, once again, that people who have problems with Al Jazeera dont even watch it.

Al Jazeera has been, BY FAR, doing the best job as reporters of covering this event. they're even having their own staff being arrested for showing the action on the streets rather than just parroting the Egyption State Television.


Al Jazeera is an excellent news organization.I'll bet you're also a China Peoples Daily and Pravda fan ?

Rockntractor
02-02-2011, 11:36 AM
I'm going to guess, once again, that people who have problems with Al Jazeera dont even watch it.

Al Jazeera has been, BY FAR, doing the best job as reporters of covering this event. they're even having their own staff being arrested for showing the action on the streets rather than just parroting the Egyption State Television.


Al Jazeera is an excellent news organization.

Send them your resume, they may need a Dhimmi reporter.

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 11:42 AM
watching al jazeera news this weekend I saw, (live mind you), protests break out, clashes against police, gunfire, dozens of handheld camera shots from protesters, long interviews with actual protesters, hour-long continuous shots of the protests when they were really getting crazy, the moments when the protesting abruptly stopped for group prayer, there were two on-air moments when the egyptian police tried to shut down the broadcasting, saw as the tanks first rolled in, heard and saw reporters down in the shit running and trying to not get shot themselves, and more

i turn it back to American cable news and welp it's just a bunch of stupid fat old white men shouting at each other about stuff they're ignorant of

AmPat
02-02-2011, 11:52 AM
It's not about that.

It's their revolution, this is their moment, this is their country, this is their future. It's not about america or americans they aren't doing it for us. They're doing it for themselves.

If someone like the Muslim brotherhood gains traction in the area, we must ask ourselves why they are so popular. For now though, we are seeing outbursts of freedom.
This is what freedom means, it means sometimes they may choose something that we don't like, we are not the worlds mother or father, it's not our place to determine the validity or desirability of the emancipatory projects of other peoples.

"Popular" or feared? They are the next installment of a strongman. Do you prefer their version of Strongman over a strongman named,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Mubarak?
:rolleyes:

Rockntractor
02-02-2011, 11:55 AM
i turn it back to American cable news and welp it's just a bunch of stupid fat old white men shouting at each other about stuff they're ignorant of
Racist bigot!

Rebel Yell
02-02-2011, 11:56 AM
It's not about that.

It's their revolution, this is their moment, this is their country, this is their future. It's not about america or americans they aren't doing it for us. They're doing it for themselves.

If someone like the Muslim brotherhood gains traction in the area, we must ask ourselves why they are so popular. For now though, we are seeing outbursts of freedom.

This is what freedom means, it means sometimes they may choose something that we don't like, we are not the worlds mother or father, it's not our place to determine the validity or desirability of the emancipatory projects of other peoples.

I agree with you there. This is not going to go well for us either way. My problem is with Obama, reportedly, asking the Egyptian President to step down now. His being in power is what's in OUR best interest, which is the only interest Obama should have.

txradioguy
02-02-2011, 12:05 PM
I'm going to guess, once again, that people who have problems with Al Jazeera dont even watch it.

I watch it. I go to the Arab AND English web sites as well.

You're full of it up to your eyelids.


Al Jazeera has been, BY FAR, doing the best job as reporters of covering this event. they're even having their own staff being arrested for showing the action on the streets rather than just parroting the Egyption State Television.

So have CNN and ABC...their people have been getting jostled around and threatened.

What's your point? ANd are you actually watching Egyptian television to know for sure anyone is parroting talking points from anyone else?

Or are you pulling that one out of your fourth point of contact as well?



Al Jazeera is an excellent news organization.

On what expertise in broadcasting do you base this on?

txradioguy
02-02-2011, 12:07 PM
Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei
i turn it back to American cable news and welp it's just a bunch of stupid fat old white men shouting at each other about stuff they're ignorant of

And this is different from some loud mouth skinny Libtard doing the same thing on an internet forum how exactly?

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 12:08 PM
"Popular" or feared? They are the next installment of a strongman. Do you prefer their version of Strongman over a strongman named,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Mubarak?
:rolleyes:


they just stood toe-to-toe with the secret police force that terrorizes them during their past rigged elections, and they beat the fuck out of them.

You think they are afraid of strongmen? Mubarak is a strongman and he had his own arm of enforcement out in full force and look what happened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc000YDVY5o

Does that look like fear to you? Do these people look like they are ready to be held down by force?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtLJpzUp2Z8
Does this look like fear?

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 12:12 PM
The stupid American news keeps trying to portray this as someone else's doing. That someone is working behind the scenes to orchestrate this, as if the Egyptian people have no agency of their own. It's insulting.

Rockntractor
02-02-2011, 12:14 PM
The stupid American news keeps trying to portray this as someone else's doing. That someone is working behind the scenes to orchestrate this, as if the Egyptian people have no agency of their own. It's insulting.

Why do you hate America MaoWei?

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 12:16 PM
Does America = American News Organizations?

txradioguy
02-02-2011, 12:19 PM
The stupid American news keeps trying to portray this as someone else's doing. That someone is working behind the scenes to orchestrate this, as if the Egyptian people have no agency of their own. It's insulting.

What's insulting is you trying to act like you know what's going on.

This is the culmination of three seperate things. A speech Dr. Rice gave there in 2005 noting that...at the tiime...25 years of Hosni Mubarak hasn't helped lead Egypt Towards a democratic way of life despite the money we pumped into them every year.

It's inspired by similiar riots in Yemen and Tunisia.

The riots in the other two countries have the same hand directing them...the Muslim Brotherhood who are about as good for that region as the taliban and al-Qaeda would be.

As much as you wish this was one of your "people's" uprisings you Libtards fevernetly dream about...this is being controlled and orchestrated by people who are using the uprising for their own intentions.

txradioguy
02-02-2011, 12:22 PM
Does America = American News Organizations?

Pissed cause the corner 7-11 doesn't carr Pravda and NPR doesn't take feeds from Xinhua?

fettpett
02-02-2011, 12:22 PM
The stupid American news keeps trying to portray this as someone else's doing. That someone is working behind the scenes to orchestrate this, as if the Egyptian people have no agency of their own. It's insulting.

did you just admit that MSM in the US is full of shit...it's a step in the right direction

Arroyo_Doble
02-02-2011, 12:24 PM
I streamed Al Jazeera English if I wanted to know what was going on in Egypt. The coverage was pretty good and they were focused on what was going on and didn't interupt with asinine graphics and KA-CHUNG-ZWAT! sound drops.

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 12:26 PM
What's insulting is you trying to act like you know what's going on.

This is the culmination of three seperate things. A speech Dr. Rice gave there in 2005 noting that...at the tiime...25 years of Hosni Mubarak hasn't helped lead Egypt Towards a democratic way of life despite the money we pumped into them every year.

It's inspired by similiar riots in Yemen and Tunisia.

The riots in the other two countries have the same hand directing them...the Muslim Brotherhood who are about as good for that region as the taliban and al-Qaeda would be.

As much as you wish this was one of your "people's" uprisings you Libtards fevernetly dream about...this is being controlled and orchestrated by people who are using the uprising for their own intentions.

I've been watching dozens of protester interviews and I haven't seen a single person mention the Muslim Brotherhood.

Does the Muslim Brotherhood have influence and followers? Yeah probably, but the only people who seem to be talking about it are western news agencies, I haven't seen any of the people down there even mention the MB.

They do exist though, and they do have influence, however trying to say that these people are being controlled is just a way to strip them of their agency. They are real people who can choose to act on their own accord.

I'm sure there are plenty of protesters out there who do support the Muslim Brotherhood, but I haven't seen it, do you have some videos or interviews or something that shows that the people out there are being coerced or controlled by the MB?

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 12:27 PM
did you just admit that MSM in the US is full of shit...it's a step in the right direction

um i've been saying this as long as I've been here

try reading my posts rather than just blindly arguing against them

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 12:29 PM
I streamed Al Jazeera English if I wanted to know what was going on in Egypt. The coverage was pretty good and they were focused on what was going on and didn't interupt with asinine graphics and KA-CHUNG-ZWAT! sound drops.

It's impossible to have fully unbiased news reporting, no one expects that, but just a half hour of watching this will show that AJE is actually interested in trying to be a real news organization rather than a stupid flashing color infotainment circle-jerk like every American news network

Arroyo_Doble
02-02-2011, 12:31 PM
It's impossible to have fully unbiased news reporting, no one expects that, but just a half hour of watching this will show that AJE is actually interested in trying to be a real news organization rather than a stupid flashing color infotainment circle-jerk like every American news network

Maybe.

But I also watch The Weather Channel when I want to find out what is going on with the weather.

fettpett
02-02-2011, 12:34 PM
um i've been saying this as long as I've been here

try reading my posts rather than just blindly arguing against them

it was joke dude

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 12:34 PM
YEah American companies are no doubt the best when it comes to reporting on Weather and Sports

fettpett
02-02-2011, 12:35 PM
YEah American companies are no doubt the best when it comes to reporting on Weather and Sports

even that they suck at

txradioguy
02-02-2011, 12:42 PM
I've been watching dozens of protester interviews and I haven't seen a single person mention the Muslim Brotherhood.

Then you need to quit watching al-Jazeera. I've listened to three different networks on the AFN News channel today and they all mentioned that Muslim Brotherhood has their fingers all in this.


Does the Muslim Brotherhood have influence and followers? Yeah probably, but the only people who seem to be talking about it are western news agencies, I haven't seen any of the people down there even mention the MB.

Have you stopped in all of your ranting about how America and it's news agencies suck to think about WHY the Arab based news reports you're watching haven't mentioned that fact?

I'll let that one settle in for a moment.



They do exist though, and they do have influence, however trying to say that these people are being controlled is just a way to strip them of their agency. They are real people who can choose to act on their own accord.

Sounds nice...if it were a movie...but in reality they didn't just wake up one day and decide to do this.

Hate to shatter your little fantasy about this but it's true.



I'm sure there are plenty of protesters out there who do support the Muslim Brotherhood, but I haven't seen it, do you have some videos or interviews or something that shows that the people out there are being coerced or controlled by the MB?

Are you REALLY that obtuse? I'm hoping that it's just youth and extreme naiveity that propmts you to say these silly things. This isn't the movies or some book where the sinister character is wearing all black and standing at some street corner smiling at his evil creation.

It's propaganda...handbills...broadcasts on radio stations that get the people wipped into a frenzy believing this is the only way to go.

It wasn't some sontaneous collective thought from a million plus Egyptians that caused what you are seeing on tv.

txradioguy
02-02-2011, 12:43 PM
it was joke dude

To people with a brain it was. This idiot thinks you were serious.:rolleyes:

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 12:53 PM
Then you need to quit watching al-Jazeera. I've listened to three different networks on the AFN News channel today and they all mentioned that Muslim Brotherhood has their fingers all in this.

Yeah lots of networks are claiming this.




Have you stopped in all of your ranting about how America and it's news agencies suck to think about WHY the Arab based news reports you're watching haven't mentioned that fact?

They have mentioned it, as well as many other ideas about what is influencing this.




I'll let that one settle in for a moment.




Sounds nice...if it were a movie...but in reality they didn't just wake up one day and decide to do this.

Hate to shatter your little fantasy about this but it's true.

Of course not, they've been oppressed for 30 years under the same leader, they have been terrorized by his secret police and they have a long list of grievances.

It's like heating water, as you heat the water nothing seems to change at first, it increases in temperature one degree at a time, one degree at a time, it's hardly even noticeable, until it hits a certain point then suddenly a qualitative big change happens and the water boils and changes form into steam.

It's not as if the water suddenly just turned to steam for no reason, but the factors that led to it were small and incremental.





Are you REALLY that obtuse? I'm hoping that it's just youth and extreme naiveity that propmts you to say these silly things. This isn't the movies or some book where the sinister character is wearing all black and standing at some street corner smiling at his evil creation.

It's propaganda...handbills...broadcasts on radio stations that get the people wipped into a frenzy believing this is the only way to go.

It wasn't some sontaneous collective thought from a million plus Egyptians that caused what you are seeing on tv.

So you're claiming that the MB has done behind-the-scenes work to ferment the rage that led to these protests, but they are not actually talking about their message, their goals, their leaders, or anything else?

Well I suppose that is possible that the MB has encouraged anti-Mubarak sentiment, and they may be on the same page in terms of being opposed to Mubarak, however without any positive active support for the MB, what good will it do for the MB to get Mubarak out of office if the people do not support the MB as a replacement?

This Muslim Brotherhood idea suggests that there is support for the MB to take over, or that they simply will take over regardless of what the people want.

This revolution has shown that the people will not be trampled on, they are willing to die for their rights so I really doubt that they are going to have the MB forced upon them.

Now, if they, because of propaganda or other reasons, DO support the MB, then it is possible that the MB will take over, with the popular support of the people, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that the protesters support the MB.

It's not enough to stir up discontent, if that very discontent can also bring down a Muslim Brotherhood Strongman. They need active support and I've yet to see any evidence that this is the case.

Arroyo_Doble
02-02-2011, 12:59 PM
Muslim Brotherhood, eh?

I was wondering what angle Fox Limbaugh would take.

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 01:02 PM
I watch Fox News every single day and I an absolutely astonished that people can really just soak it up uncritically.

Arroyo_Doble
02-02-2011, 01:04 PM
I watch Fox News every single day...

Why? You can just come here and find out what they are peddling.

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 01:09 PM
just a weird quirk of mine. i feel it's necessary to know the other sides' perspective, even if that perspective is totally delusional. also it's interesting seeing the propaganda methods they employ, there is a LOT of psychology used in this art.

lol yes it is funny that it is usually the exact same talking points and false assumptions that people post here, they soak it up so fast.

i try to listen to Rush and Sean Hannity on the radio regularly, and watch lots of Fox News television.

for a long time I used to troll a liberal board really hard by pretending to be some right-wing moron, and watching this garbage really helped it was extremely effective.

txradioguy
02-02-2011, 01:15 PM
Yeah lots of networks are claiming this.

Not according to you..only the "old white guys who know nothing" on American tv are saying this.


They have mentioned it, as well as many other ideas about what is influencing this.

Changing your tune now I see and moving the goalposts.

Typical.

You don't even stop to think that the reporters and news agencies you are listening to...I assume one has to be al-Jazeera don't mention Muslim Brotherhood because they are sympathetic to their cause?

Like the MSM covering up Liberal gaffes indescretions and atrocities...the Arab news agencies do the same thing for the people and movements they are sympathetic to.

And they love useful idiots like you swallowing what they sell or don't sell in this case hook line and sinker.


Of course not, they've been oppressed for 30 years under the same leader, they have been terrorized by his secret police and they have a long list of grievances.

Link?


It's like heating water, as you heat the water nothing seems to change at first, it increases in temperature one degree at a time, one degree at a time, it's hardly even noticeable, until it hits a certain point then suddenly a qualitative big change happens and the water boils and changes form into steam.


Not according to your rantings. This was a spontaneous even caused by nothing that just started out of the blue.


It's not as if the water suddenly just turned to steam for no reason,

According to your previous statements that's what happened.




but the factors that led to it were small and incremental.

Amazing how you start to include this when you're getting your ass handed to you on the facts.



So you're claiming that the MB has done behind-the-scenes work to ferment the rage that led to these protests, but they are not actually talking about their message, their goals, their leaders, or anything else?

They don't have to. They have a patsy-in-waiting to help them get what they want. Someone who has until the riots started been living in Vienna and who has zero following...until the riots started...in Egypt. Mohammed el-Baradei.

They are using him as the face of the "popular uprising" you are watching unfold on your TV.


Well I suppose that is possible that the MB has encouraged anti-Mubarak sentiment, and they may be on the same page in terms of being opposed to Mubarak, however without any positive active support for the MB, what good will it do for the MB to get Mubarak out of office if the people do not support the MB as a replacement?

When even Israel is saying that Mubarak needs to stay in office...you know that the alternative being offered is dangerous for the entire region. Thay are as tuned in to what is gonig on behind the scecnes in the ME as anyone...and they don't want Mubarak kicked out.

That should tell you something.


This Muslim Brotherhood idea suggests that there is support for the MB to take over, or that they simply will take over regardless of what the people want.

Like al-aeda and the taliban they are opportunists. They see an opening and they exploit it. They don't wait to get elected by legitimate means or hope for an engraved invatation to the political scene.

They make their presence known in the exact way you see now.


This revolution has shown that the people will not be trampled on, they are willing to die for their rights so I really doubt that they are going to have the MB forced upon them.

:rolleyes:


Now, if they, because of propaganda or other reasons, DO support the MB, then it is possible that the MB will take over, with the popular support of the people, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that the protesters support the MB.

Their wasn't popular support for the Taliban where I'm sitting now. But they took over anyway.

Your point?


It's not enough to stir up discontent, if that very discontent can also bring down a Muslim Brotherhood Strongman. They need active support and I've yet to see any evidence that this is the case.

By the time the people in the streets realize what happen if the MB get into powe it will be too late. Whether they want them there or not they will be there and there won't be any way to get rid of them.

txradioguy
02-02-2011, 01:18 PM
Muslim Brotherhood, eh?

I was wondering what angle Fox Limbaugh would take.

Haven't heard Rush in months. And the first reports I did hear you ass clown were on Anderson Cooper 36 and Piers Morgan.

EADC.

txradioguy
02-02-2011, 01:20 PM
Why? You can just come here and find out what they are peddling.

And when we want the spineless feckless shitbag point of view on world events...we simply turn to you.

txradioguy
02-02-2011, 01:25 PM
I watch Fox News every single day and I an absolutely astonished that people can really just soak it up uncritically.

When you're spoon fed the same side of every single story by every single news agency every single day of your life...when a news outlet like Fox comes along and actually factually reports BOTH sides of a story..your reaction naturally occurs.

txradioguy
02-02-2011, 01:51 PM
Oh Wee Wee...since you're glued to al-Jazeera you probably missed this:


A leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt told the Arabic-language Iranian news network Al-Alam on Monday that he would like to see the Egyptian people prepare for war against Israel, according to the Hebrew-language business newspaper Calcalist.

Muhammad Ghannem reportedly told Al- Alam that the Suez Canal should be closed immediately, and that the flow of gas from Egypt to Israel should cease “in order to bring about the downfall of the Mubarak regime.” He added that “the people should be prepared for war against Israel,” saying the world should understand that “the Egyptian people are prepared for anything to get rid of this regime.”

Ghannem praised Egyptian soldiers deployed by President Hosni Mubarak to Egyptian cities, saying they “would not kill their brothers.” He added that Washington was forced to abandon plans to help Mubarak stay in power after “seeing millions head for the streets.”




http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=206130


You're welcome.

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 01:53 PM
There's a thread with this posted in it yeah I saw it

txradioguy
02-02-2011, 01:55 PM
There's a thread with this posted in it yeah I saw it

Just making sure. And I don't say that in a sarcastic way either. I posted that as truly informational in nature since you say you didn't know that MB was involved with what's going on in Egypt.

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 02:03 PM
Not according to you..only the "old white guys who know nothing" on American tv are saying this.

Didn't say only they are, only that they are.

there's a difference.






Changing your tune now I see and moving the goalposts.

Typical.

okay


You don't even stop to think that the reporters and news agencies you are listening to...I assume one has to be al-Jazeera don't mention Muslim Brotherhood because they are sympathetic to their cause?

Except they did mention it, multiple times, that's part of the ongoing story.



Like the MSM covering up Liberal gaffes indescretions and atrocities...the Arab news agencies do the same thing for the people and movements they are sympathetic to.

lol what?

they have reported plenty on the MB, and like I said, I'm also watching lots of American news too.




And they love useful idiots like you swallowing what they sell or don't sell in this case hook line and sinker.



Link?




Not according to your rantings. This was a spontaneous even caused by nothing that just started out of the blue.

no. you keep trying to tell me what I think so it's easier for you to argue against? It's not a contest bro.





According to your previous statements that's what happened.


nah.






Amazing how you start to include this when you're getting your ass handed to you on the facts.

lol yes dude you are wining this battle on the forums i have to change my tiger style into drunken monkey style in order to defeat you!!





They don't have to. They have a patsy-in-waiting to help them get what they want. Someone who has until the riots started been living in Vienna and who has zero following...until the riots started...in Egypt. Mohammed el-Baradei.

They are using him as the face of the "popular uprising" you are watching unfold on your TV.

I'm saying these egyptians are ready, willing, and able to force police forces back into retreat, it's not going to be easy for someone to just take over and oppress them while all of this revolutionary fire is burning.

it's got to be somebody they support. they may support them for the wrong reasons (from our perspective), but it doesn't look like they are going to lay back and accept someone they don't support overtaking their country.

they know who the Muslim Brotherhood is, they have influence in the middle east, and if the people DO support the Muslim Brotherhood, they can voice that, but so far i haven't heard it.



Like al-aeda and the taliban they are opportunists. They see an opening and they exploit it. They don't wait to get elected by legitimate means or hope for an engraved invatation to the political scene.

They make their presence known in the exact way you see now.



:rolleyes:



Their wasn't popular support for the Taliban where I'm sitting now. But they took over anyway.

Your point?


Right, but the history of afghanistan is different than that of Egypt.

Afghanistan actually was fairly liberal in the middle of last century, they had active universities that women attended, they were a hotspot of progressivism in the middle east, they even had independent socialist movements growing but when the Soviets tried to invade them America decided to help them fight the Soviets by giving them weapons.

However, America wasn't just anti-Soviet, we were anti-socialist, so we decimated the domestic activists groups in Afghanistan, and helped the religious fundamentalists purge their society of all leftism.

So when the soviets were defeated and driven out, there was a void where the Left used to be, and because no one was there speaking for Leftism, the only alternative that the people had was religious fundamentalists.

This is some of the things that led to afghanistan being a rogue nation run by religious whackos, and it has to do with Soviet intervention as well as American intervention and how we dealt with their unique circumstances.


this same thing cannot be applied to Egypt because they have a different history and a different set of circumstances./



By the time the people in the streets realize what happen if the MB get into powe it will be too late. Whether they want them there or not they will be there and there won't be any way to get rid of them.

maybe. that is a very real possibility. that doesn't mean that the MB is somehow orchestrating all of it, that's totally different from the claim that they are opportunists.

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 02:04 PM
txradioguy, just so you know, i'm not interested in having a dick-measuring contest with you. i don't care. this isn't about winning or stroking my ego here, i'm just trying to discuss it as i see it. you're trying wayy too hard.

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 02:11 PM
Just making sure. And I don't say that in a sarcastic way either. I posted that as truly informational in nature since you say you didn't know that MB was involved with what's going on in Egypt.

they are a strong political influence in the area and inside of Egypt, I was just saying that they don't seem to be responsible for orchestrating this protest, and the protesters don't seem to be protesting for the cause of the Muslim Brotherhood.

but yes they are a piece of this

NJCardFan
02-02-2011, 02:15 PM
I'm going to guess, once again, that people who have problems with Al Jazeera dont even watch it.

Al Jazeera has been, BY FAR, doing the best job as reporters of covering this event. they're even having their own staff being arrested for showing the action on the streets rather than just parroting the Egyption State Television.


Al Jazeera is an excellent news organization.

Oh really? Let me tell you about this "excellent news organization". At the start of the Iraq War, Al Jazeera was in a hospital and they were talking to a little girl who was injured in an alleged missile attack. They asked this little girl, who couldn't have been much more than 5, what kind of missile it was an she said it was "an American missile." Huh. At 5 years old she can tell what kind of missile it was. Hell, at 45 I sure as hell can't. But Al Jazeera was reporting it as gospel. So, no, they are no news organization. They are a propaganda weapon.

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 02:32 PM
Camel-mounted Mubarak supporters are roaming around, clashes are breaking out with rocks and molotov cocktails being hurled in the major city squares

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 03:18 PM
gunfire is breaking out right now live on AJE.

unfortunately work duties call and I cannot continue watching.

edit: welp this activity was just cancelled due to weather looks like i'm gonna buy a flask of Jack Daniels and enjoy the winter wonderland

Odysseus
02-02-2011, 03:35 PM
I'm amazed at the attitude of so many far left liberals on the events in Egypt. They don't seem to grasp the consequences if the entire middle East is in the hands of the Muslim brotherhood. Do they even have a clue of the economic and security issues?
Of course not. They're liberals. If they had a clue, they'd be something else.

I'm going to guess, once again, that people who have problems with Al Jazeera dont even watch it.

Al Jazeera has been, BY FAR, doing the best job as reporters of covering this event. they're even having their own staff being arrested for showing the action on the streets rather than just parroting the Egyption State Television.

Al Jazeera is an excellent news organization.
I will say that they are less overtly anti-American than CNN and MSNBC, but that's not much of a compliment.

I've been watching dozens of protester interviews and I haven't seen a single person mention the Muslim Brotherhood.

Does the Muslim Brotherhood have influence and followers? Yeah probably, but the only people who seem to be talking about it are western news agencies, I haven't seen any of the people down there even mention the MB.

They do exist though, and they do have influence, however trying to say that these people are being controlled is just a way to strip them of their agency. They are real people who can choose to act on their own accord.

I'm sure there are plenty of protesters out there who do support the Muslim Brotherhood, but I haven't seen it, do you have some videos or interviews or something that shows that the people out there are being coerced or controlled by the MB?
Hmmm... Al Jazeera isn't broadcasting discussion of the Muslim Brotherhood, so that means that they aren't involved? Or, to put it another way, if a suicide bomber blows up a tree in the forest, and Al Jazeera doesn't cover it, did it rack up a body count? Do you understand how clueless you sound when you say something like that? Like our media, AJ cherry picks the sound bytes in order to support their narrative. If they interview 100 people, and 90 talk about the Muslim Brotherhood, then they put on the other 10 and deny that the Brotherhood is involved.

Odysseus
02-02-2011, 03:36 PM
To understand the Muslim Brotherhood's part in this, here's an eyewitness account from inside Egypt:


February 02, 2011
The Story of the Egyptian Revolution
By Sam Tadros

A friend of mine in academia forwarded this e-mail to me from an Egyptian student whose good sense he vouches for. The student tells a story very different from what most of you are seeing on television or reading in your papers.

Unless the author gives me permission to reveal his identity, I am not at liberty to disclose it. [Update: The author, Sam Tadros, has given his permission to publish his name.]
- Clarice Feldman

****
My apologies for the length of this article, but I see it as extremely important to tell the whole story as it happened.

The Story of the Egyptian Revolution

One week ago, Egypt was a stable authoritarian regime, prospects of change were minimal and every expert in Washington would have betted on the endurance of its regime. Today, Egypt is in a state of chaos. The regime, even after using its mightiest sword is not able to control the country and the streets of Egypt are in a state of utter lawlessness. As the world stands in awe, confusion, and worry at the unfolding events, perhaps it is important to write the evolving story that is happening in Egypt before any reflections can be made on them.

----SNIP----

For two weeks calls were made using new social media tools for a mass demonstration on the 25th of January. Observers dismissed those calls as another virtual activism that would not result in anything. Other calls in the past had resulted in very small public support and the demonstrations were limited to the familiar faces of political activists numbering in the hundreds. As the day progressed, the observers seemed to be correct in their skepticism. While the demonstrations were certainly larger than previous ones, numbering perhaps 15,000 in Cairo, they were nothing worrisome for the regime. They were certainly much smaller than the ones in 2003 against the Iraq War. The police force was largely tolerating and when they decided to empty Tahrir Square, where the demonstrators had camped for the night, it took them less than 5 minutes to do so.

But beneath that, things were very different. The social media tools had given people something that they had lacked previously, an independent means of communication and propaganda. Hundreds of thousands of young Egyptians in a matter of minutes were seeing the demonstration videos being uploaded on youtube. For an apolitical generation that had never shown interest in such events the demonstration was unprecedented. More remarkable they were tremendously exaggerated. At a moment when no more than 500 demonstrators had started gathering in that early morning, an Egyptian opposition leader could confidently tweet that he was leading 100,000 in Tahrir Square. And it stuck.

It should come as no surprise to anyone that after 58 years of organized state propaganda, people would not believe for a second the government's media machine and its coverage of the events. Why they chose to believe the alternative propaganda needs more explaining. People believed the twitter messages and the facebook postings because they wanted to believe them. Tunisia had broken the barrier for many people. It mattered not that the situation and ruling formula in Tunisia is very different than the one in Egypt. Perceptions were more important than reality. If the Tunisians could do it, then so could we. With 15,000 demonstrating in Cairo, Egyptians were already texting each other with stories of the President's son escape. The only debate being whether Hosni Mubarak would escape to London or Saudi Arabia.

The next day the demonstrations continued with a promise of a return on Friday the 28th after Friday Prayers in Mosques. The regime started panicking at this moment. This was simply something they did not understand. Imagine for a second Mubarak's advisors trying to explain to the 83 year old dictator what twitter is in the first place. What was more worrying for them was that the only real force in Egyptian politics, the Muslim Brotherhood, announced its intention of joining the demonstrations. Suddenly they were faced with the prospect of hundreds of thousands of demonstrators from every Mosque in the country. They acted as every panicking authoritarian regime would act. They acted stupidly.

----SNIP----

Friday was an unprecedented event in Egypt. While it is impossible to guess the number of protestors on the streets that day, it is safe to say that they exceeded one million. Every Mosque was a launching site for a demonstration. The Islamists were out in full force. The slogans that day were quite different than the previous ones. Islamic slogans and activists were clearly visible. The security forces were faced with wave after wave of protestors that came from every street. In 4 hours, the security forces were collapsing.

Whether Mubarak was fully previously told about the deteriorating situation for the previous days or whether it was at this moment that he suddenly realized the gravity of the situation remains unknown. One thing is sure; the regime was not prepared for this. It is at this moment that the decision was taken to call in the army, announce a curfew, and withdraw the security forces. In reality the army did not deploy immediately. The troops and tanks that appeared in the streets were the Presidential Guard units deployed in Cairo.

The army was actually still far away from deploying in Cairo. Because no one had imagined that the situation would totally be out of control, the level of alert of the army was never raised. Officers were not called from their vacations and the whole top command of the Egyptian army was actually thousands of miles away in Washington for strategic prearranged discussions at the Pentagon. Moreover, the plan of deployment of the army never imagined a scenario where people would defy it. No one imagined that the army would be required to put a tank in every street. They thought that the mere mention of the army being called in, the sight of a few tanks, and the announcement of the curfew, would make people immediately go home scared. People did not.

Odysseus
02-02-2011, 03:37 PM
And the rest:


The Egyptian army is hugely popular. This is due to the established mythology of Egyptian politics. The army, which is in all aspects the regime, is seen as separate by the people. The army is viewed as clean (not like the corrupt government), efficient (they do build bridges fast), and more importantly the heroes that defeated Israel in 1973 (it is no use to debate that point with an Egyptian). With the troops and tanks appearing in the streets, people actually thought the army was on their side, whatever that might mean. With an announced Presidential addressed that kept being delayed; Egyptians prepared themselves for an announcement of Mubarak's resignation.

Mubarak was at a loss. The troops could not possibly shoot people. That would not only destroy the army's reputation, but more importantly the troops practically could not do it. These guys after all were not trained for this. They do not have rubber bullets or tear gas. They only have live ammunition and tanks and the thought of actually using them in this situation was never an option. To the surprise of the regime, people just celebrated the army's arrival and started dancing in the streets defying the curfew. More importantly something else was happening as well. The looting was starting.

The decision to withdraw the security forces was a natural decision. First they were utterly exhausted and needed the rest to regroup. Secondly, as the security forces had become the symbol of the regime's oppression their withdrawal was seen as necessary to calm things. Thirdly and most importantly, in the protocol of operations there could not possibly be two forces with arms in the same street receiving orders from two different structures of command. Even with the best of coordination, a disaster is bound to happen.

What was not calculated however is the fact that suddenly a vacuum was created. The security forces were withdrawn and the army was not deployed yet. In this gap an opportunity presented itself for everyone. The scenes were unbelievable. First there was massive anger vented at symbols of state oppression such as the ruling party's headquarters. More drastically, in what can only be described as systematic targeting, police stations everywhere were attacked. Every police station in Cairo was looted, the weapons in them stolen and then burned. At the same time, massive looting was taking place. Even the Egyptian Museum, which hosts some of the world's greatest heritage, was not spared.

Saturday was indescribable. Nothing that I write can describe the utter state of lawlessness that prevailed. Every Egyptian prison was attacked by organized groups trying to free the prisoners inside. In the case of the prisons holding regular criminals this was done by their families and friends. In the case of the prisons with the political prisoners this was done by the Islamists. Bulldozers were used in those attacks and the weapons available from the looting of police stations were available. Nearly all the prisons fell. The prison forces simply could not deal with such an onslaught and no reinforcements were available. Nearly every terrorist held in the Egyptian prisons from those that bombed the Alexandria Church less than a month ago to the Murderer of Anwar El Sadat was freed, the later reportedly being arrested again tonight.

On the streets of Cairo it was the scene of a jungle. With no law enforcement in town and the army at a loss at how to deal with it, it was the golden opportunity for everyone. In a city that is surrounded with slums, thousands of thieves fell on their neighboring richer districts. People were robbed in broad daylight, houses were invaded, and stores looted and burned. Egypt had suddenly fallen back to the State of Nature. Panicking, people started grabbing whatever weapon they could find and forming groups to protect their houses. As the day progressed the street defense committees became more organized. Every building had its men standing in front of it with everything they could find from personal guns, knives to sticks. Women started preparing Molotov bombs using alcohol bottles. Street committees started coordinating themselves. Every major crossroad had now groups of citizens stopping all passing cars checking their ID cards and searching the cars for weapons. Machine guns were in high demand and were sold in the streets.

----SNIP----

Today the Egyptians are scared. They have been given a glimpse of hell and they don't like what they see. Contrary to Al Jazeera's propaganda, the Egyptian masses are not demonstrating anymore. They are protecting their homes and families. The demonstration last night had 5,000 political activists participating and not 150,000 as Al Jazeera insists. At this moment, no one outside of those political activists cares less now if the President will resign or not. They have more important concerns now; security and food.

So where are we today? Well the answer is still not clear, yet a couple of conclusions are evident.

1. The Gamal inheritance scenario is finished.

2. Mubarak will not run for another Presidential term. His term ends in October and either he will serve the rest of his term or will resign once things cool down for health reasons, which are real. He is dying.

3. The army is in control now. We are heading back to the "golden age" of army rule. The "kids" are no longer in charge. The "men' are.

4. Until the economy fails again, the neo-liberal economic policies are over. Forget about an open economy for some time.

Immediately the task of the army is to stabilize the situation and enforce order. The security forces have been ordered to reappear in the streets starting tonight. The next task will be to deal with the political activists and the Muslim Brotherhood which now dominates the scene. It is anyone's guess how that will be done, but in a couple of days the Egyptians will probably be begging the army to shoot them. Third stage will be to return to normal life again with people going back to their jobs and somehow food being made available. Later on however will come the political questions.

The long term challenges are numerous. First you have a huge economic loss in terms of property destroyed. The minute the banks will be reopened, there will be a run on them and capital flight will be the key word in town. It is of course quite natural that for some time no one in his sensible mind will invest in Egypt.

Politically, the army will aim at returning to the pre-Gamal ruling formula. People will be appeased by raising salaries and increasing subsidies with the hope of silencing them. Will it be enough? That is doubtful. The Egyptians have realized for the first time that the regime is not as strong as it looked a week ago. If the army did not stop them, how will they ever be silenced? Moreover they are greatly empowered. Egyptians today feel pride in themselves. They have protected their neighborhoods and done what the army has failed to do. This empowerment will not be crushed easily.

Security wise the situation is a disaster. It might take months to arrest all those criminals again. Moreover no one has a clue how the weapons that were stolen will ever be collected again or how the security will ever regain its necessary respect to restore public order after it was defeated in 4 hours. More importantly, reports indicate that the borders in Gaza were open for the past few days. What exactly was transferred between Gaza and Egypt is anyone's guess.

You seem to wonder after all of this where El Baradei and the Egyptian opposition are. CNN's anointed leader of the Egyptian Revolution must be important to the future of Egypt. Hardly! Outside of Western media hype, El Baradei is nothing. A man that has spent less than 30 days in the past year in Egypt and hardly any time in the past 20 years is a nobody. It is entirely insulting to Egyptians to suggest otherwise. The opposition you wonder? Outside of the Muslim Brotherhood we are discussing groups that can each claim less than 5,000 actual members. With no organization, no ideas, and no leaders they are entirely irrelevant to the discussion. It is the apolitical young generation that has suddenly been transformed that is the real question here.

Page Printed from: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/the_story_of_the_egyptian_revo.html at February 02, 2011 - 02:25:08 PM CST

Jfor
02-02-2011, 04:33 PM
What weewee fails to realize is that soon there will be a power vaccuum in Egypt. Who better to fill than Muslim Brotherhood. Before to long, Egypt will go down the road and become another Iran. Sad really. While life under Mubarak was not ideal, life under an islamist regime will be worse.

Odysseus
02-02-2011, 04:48 PM
What weewee fails to realize is that soon there will be a power vaccuum in Egypt. Who better to fill than Muslim Brotherhood. Before to long, Egypt will go down the road and become another Iran. Sad really. While life under Mubarak was not ideal, life under an islamist regime will be worse.

Leftists look at a choice between a Franco and a Hitler and opt for Stalin.

Rockntractor
02-02-2011, 04:51 PM
Leftists look at a choice between a Franco and a Hitler and opt for Stalin.

I'll see your Stalin and raise you Mao!:cool:

Odysseus
02-02-2011, 05:10 PM
I'll see your Stalin and raise you Mao!:cool:

I'll see your Mao and raise you a Pol Pot, a Khomeini, a Qadafi and a Che. Whatcha got?

Rockntractor
02-02-2011, 05:12 PM
I'll see your Mao and raise you a Pol Pot, a Khomeini, a Qadafi and a Che. Whatcha got?

I fold.:(

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 05:24 PM
Just now from Sen. John McCain's Twitter:


@SenJohnMcCain

1. Regrettably the time has come 4 Pres. Mubarak 2 step down & relinquish power. It’s in the best interest of Egypt, its people & its military.

Jfor
02-02-2011, 05:30 PM
Just now from Sen. John McCain's Twitter:

McCain is somebody who conservatives should look up to :rolleyes:

SaintLouieWoman
02-02-2011, 05:57 PM
Do you know that Colmes and Crowley are brother and sister in law?

They must have interesting family dinners. Poor Crowley!

SaintLouieWoman
02-02-2011, 06:01 PM
I'll see your Mao and raise you a Pol Pot, a Khomeini, a Qadafi and a Che. Whatcha got?

Perhaps some of the libs should converse with people from Cambodia who lived under Pol Pot. As part of an exchange program I had a policeman from Cambodia as a dinner guest. After talking for some time, he told me that his entire family was gone, all murdered by Pol Pot's thugs.

He gave me a DVD that had pictures of all the skulls lined up, all killed by the Pol Pot regme.

I will never forget the look on his face when he spoke of his great loss. I hope the Egyptians are jumping from the proverbial frying pan into the fire.

The Muslim Brotherhood rules by fear and terrorism.

Odysseus
02-02-2011, 06:03 PM
I fold.:(
Hah! Never bet on death when a Sicilian is involved! >Thunk< :D

Just now from Sen. John McCain's Twitter:

And your point?

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 06:05 PM
Where the people decide to take themselves is up to them, but their decision to take their destiny into their own hands must be applauded. This is the spirit of emancipation, regardless of where it later ends up.

With the wave of protests spreading in other middle eastern countries, we must ask whether having a more democratic middle east is actually in the interests of the United States, but that is separate from the righteous nature of this moment.

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 06:08 PM
I think that is a lot more honest than "I support freedom except when it might threaten me"

Odysseus
02-02-2011, 06:50 PM
Where the people decide to take themselves is up to them, but their decision to take their destiny into their own hands must be applauded. This is the spirit of emancipation, regardless of where it later ends up.

With the wave of protests spreading in other middle eastern countries, we must ask whether having a more democratic middle east is actually in the interests of the United States, but that is separate from the righteous nature of this moment.
Let's backtrack a bit. The French Revolution was characterized by a popular uprising against the Bourbon monarchy. After a brief period of chaos, the Jacobins took power and proceeded to institute a regime of mass terror for the sake of terror. They killed hundreds of thousands of people, after which, they were overthrown by Napoleon, who, not content to rule France, plunged the entire continent into the most destructive combat since the religious wars of the Renaissance. Can you seriously tell us that you applaud the decision of the French people to storm the Bastille, knowing the horrendous consequences that followed? For that matter, Germany, after the collapse of the corrupt and ineffectual Weimar government, embraced its own revolutionary movement, the National Socialist Workers' Party. The consequences of that decision to take their destiny into their own hands resulted in the Holocaust and WWII. Do you applaud that decision?


I think that is a lot more honest than "I support freedom except when it might threaten me"
What makes you think that this will result in freedom? The Egyptian people have no experience with self-government, and the only opposition group with any organization is the one that will impose Sharia law on them. And, if the polls are to be believed, the majority of Egyptians will, at least initially, welcome it. Egyptian Muslims overwhelmingly support the strict application of Sharia (74%), and the re-establishment of a trans-national Islamic Caliphate (67%). That means that they are not only not in favor of freedom, but are prepared to deny themselves and the surrounding world any liberty whatsoever. And how will that play out? Let's look at their record in just one area, women's rights:

From a report to the UN Human Rights Commission, April 23, 2010: “The FGM (female genital mutilation) figure for Egypt… remains today a deadly 97%.” The consequences of this barbaric practice include “severe pain, shock, infection, bleeding, acute urinary infection, tetanus, and death” in the immediate aftermath, and “chronic pain, difficulties with micturition and menstruation, pelvic infection leading to infertility, and prolonged and obstructed labor during childbirth” as described in a 1993 British Medical Journal report.

What can you say about the freedom to mutilate female children in the name of Islam? Do those little girls have any freedom? Are they free to live? If they survive the amputation of their genitals, maybe. Do they have liberty? I'd suggest that you ask one, but you'll have to get the permission of their nearest male relative, who might just beat the crap out of her for violating the family honor by even letting you catch a glimpse of her. Can they pursue happiness? Maybe when they are not in chronic pain, or being traded like livestock for marriage to their cousins. That's the "freedom" that you are celebrating, Wei. And what's more disgusting than the horrors imposed on women, religious minorities, gays or pretty much everyone under Sharia, is your pretense that it is a good to be applauded because you see them as an enemy of the US, and therefore you think that you share a common enemy.

You really need to grow a conscience.

Wei Wu Wei
02-02-2011, 07:17 PM
Let's backtrack a bit. The French Revolution was characterized by a popular uprising against the Bourbon monarchy. After a brief period of chaos, the Jacobins took power and proceeded to institute a regime of mass terror for the sake of terror. They killed hundreds of thousands of people, after which, they were overthrown by Napoleon, who, not content to rule France, plunged the entire continent into the most destructive combat since the religious wars of the Renaissance. Can you seriously tell us that you applaud the decision of the French people to storm the Bastille, knowing the horrendous consequences that followed? For that matter, Germany, after the collapse of the corrupt and ineffectual Weimar government, embraced its own revolutionary movement, the National Socialist Workers' Party. The consequences of that decision to take their destiny into their own hands resulted in the Holocaust and WWII. Do you applaud that decision?

The British Colonies in America had a popular uprising and the future was our history and current situation.

The future cannot be known, if religious fundamentalists take over the country, it would be in large part because Mubarak worked hard to marginalize any secular leftist opposition. Without a hard secular Left, the only people with a post-revolutionary framework are the islamic fundamentalists.

However, I'm not talking about the unknown future, I'm talking about the gesture of self-emancipation happening right now. They are breaking the molds of history, and doing something that seemed impossible previously, because of the incremental buildup and semi-spontaneous nature. This is going by on an hour-by-hour basis, no one knows where it will go but it's that faith and self-determination to totally break away from what is known and to step into the darkness of the possible that is admirable.

If islamic fundamentalists takeover or Mubarak loyalists try to reestablish order will be evident in the future, but the end result is different from the intention of the protesters and their intention right now seems to be pure, just, and righteous freedom.

Let me be clear, they are compelled by the direction towards greater freedom and that is to be admired, even joyous of - if external forces enter the picture and shape the eventual outcome, we will have to examine how and why that unfolds but for the moment it is inspiring



What makes you think that this will result in freedom? The Egyptian people have no experience with self-government, and the only opposition group with any organization is the one that will impose Sharia law on them. And, if the polls are to be believed, the majority of Egyptians will, at least initially, welcome it. Egyptian Muslims overwhelmingly support the strict application of Sharia (74%), and the re-establishment of a trans-national Islamic Caliphate (67%). That means that they are not only not in favor of freedom, but are prepared to deny themselves and the surrounding world any liberty whatsoever. And how will that play out? Let's look at their record in just one area, women's rights:

From a report to the UN Human Rights Commission, April 23, 2010: “The FGM (female genital mutilation) figure for Egypt… remains today a deadly 97%.” The consequences of this barbaric practice include “severe pain, shock, infection, bleeding, acute urinary infection, tetanus, and death” in the immediate aftermath, and “chronic pain, difficulties with micturition and menstruation, pelvic infection leading to infertility, and prolonged and obstructed labor during childbirth” as described in a 1993 British Medical Journal report.

What can you say about the freedom to mutilate female children in the name of Islam? Do those little girls have any freedom? Are they free to live? If they survive the amputation of their genitals, maybe. Do they have liberty? I'd suggest that you ask one, but you'll have to get the permission of their nearest male relative, who might just beat the crap out of her for violating the family honor by even letting you catch a glimpse of her. Can they pursue happiness? Maybe when they are not in chronic pain, or being traded like livestock for marriage to their cousins. That's the "freedom" that you are celebrating, Wei. And what's more disgusting than the horrors imposed on women, religious minorities, gays or pretty much everyone under Sharia, is your pretense that it is a good to be applauded because you see them as an enemy of the US, and therefore you think that you share a common enemy.

You really need to grow a conscience.

The gesture is a gesture towards freedom, the will to freedom has taken over their hearts and minds and they are taking a step into the unknown. I don't know what will happen but I admire their spirit.

Rockntractor
02-02-2011, 07:58 PM
The British Colonies in America had a popular uprising and the future was our history and current situation.

The future cannot be known, if religious fundamentalists take over the country, it would be in large part because Mubarak worked hard to marginalize any secular leftist opposition. Without a hard secular Left, the only people with a post-revolutionary framework are the islamic fundamentalists.

However, I'm not talking about the unknown future, I'm talking about the gesture of self-emancipation happening right now. They are breaking the molds of history, and doing something that seemed impossible previously, because of the incremental buildup and semi-spontaneous nature. This is going by on an hour-by-hour basis, no one knows where it will go but it's that faith and self-determination to totally break away from what is known and to step into the darkness of the possible that is admirable.

If islamic fundamentalists takeover or Mubarak loyalists try to reestablish order will be evident in the future, but the end result is different from the intention of the protesters and their intention right now seems to be pure, just, and righteous freedom.

Let me be clear, they are compelled by the direction towards greater freedom and that is to be admired, even joyous of - if external forces enter the picture and shape the eventual outcome, we will have to examine how and why that unfolds but for the moment it is inspiring




The gesture is a gesture towards freedom, the will to freedom has taken over their hearts and minds and they are taking a step into the unknown. I don't know what will happen but I admire their spirit.
You managed six paragraphs without actually saying anything of substance, are you trying to take over for Wilbur?

lacarnut
02-02-2011, 10:17 PM
You managed six paragraphs without actually saying anything of substance, are you trying to take over for Wilbur?

It is hard to read the crap he writes because of the pathetic sentence structure where he runs two sentences together without a conjunction (post #9 & 66). These (2) different WEE WEE morons needs to go back to the 5Th grade and learn English composition 101 and punctuation.

Rockntractor
02-02-2011, 10:18 PM
It is hard to read the crap he writes because of the pathetic sentence structure where he runs two sentences together without a conjunction. This moron needs to go back to the 5Th grade and learn English composition 101 and punctuation.

Reading him or Wilbur for any length of time is like chewing broken glass!

txradioguy
02-03-2011, 02:00 AM
txradioguy, just so you know, i'm not interested in having a dick-measuring contest with you. i don't care. this isn't about winning or stroking my ego here, i'm just trying to discuss it as i see it. you're trying wayy too hard.

Didn't realize that's what I was trying to do. *shrugs* Sorry YOU see it that way.

What I am merely doing is presenting you with the facts as they are in the real world...not viewed through rose colored glasses as you are doing.

As much as you WISH the scenario was as you want it to be in Cairo that's just not the case.

There is no contest here...you trot out propaganda and misguided personal opinions and I counter them with facts.

Sorry if that doesn't bode well with your Libtard sensitivities.

Sonnabend
02-03-2011, 05:10 AM
Wei is probably a fan of Pravda too. Well, they dont call them " useful idiots" for nothing:rolleyes:

Wei Wu Wei
02-03-2011, 11:50 AM
Christians Form a Human Chain to Protect Their Muslim Brothers While They Pray During the Lawless Protests:

http://i.imgur.com/VrkBn.jpg

Odysseus
02-03-2011, 11:53 AM
The British Colonies in America had a popular uprising and the future was our history and current situation.
But the past determined that future. The Colonies were self-governing. Each Colony had a legislature that was elected by the colonists. Each colony had the rule of law, imposed from within, and a culture of civil institutions that meant that when the British were driven out, there was no power vaccuum. Compare that to France or Russia, neither of which had any semblance of self-rule prior to their revolutions. The results were anarchy, followed by dictatorship and terror. Look at Egypt and tell me whether the average Egyptian thinks more like an American colonist or a French peasant or Russian serf.


The future cannot be known, if religious fundamentalists take over the country, it would be in large part because Mubarak worked hard to marginalize any secular leftist opposition. Without a hard secular Left, the only people with a post-revolutionary framework are the islamic fundamentalists.
You are astonishingly clueless. Given a choice between Franco (like Mubarak, a relatively moderate autocrat) and Hitler (like the Muslim Brotherhood, who learned a great deal from him, a genocidal totalitarian), you opt for Stalin (a secular leftist). There is no secular left in the Muslim world because they have tried Socialism and failed. The Soviets introduced central planning to their allies when they provided them with technical assistance, and the Ba'athist regimes, which were modelled on the Nazi and Communist Parties, took to it like a duck to water, except that in the long term, the duck drowned.


However, I'm not talking about the unknown future, I'm talking about the gesture of self-emancipation happening right now. They are breaking the molds of history, and doing something that seemed impossible previously, because of the incremental buildup and semi-spontaneous nature. This is going by on an hour-by-hour basis, no one knows where it will go but it's that faith and self-determination to totally break away from what is known and to step into the darkness of the possible that is admirable.
Wow, what drivel. You applaud a "gesture" that will lead Egypt to step into darkness (and most likely off a cliff in the dark). This is the ultimate elevation of empty rhetoric over substance. The gesture that you are lauding is an upraised middle finger to 1,400 years of civilization in those parts of the world that didn't stagnate under Islam.


If islamic fundamentalists takeover or Mubarak loyalists try to reestablish order will be evident in the future, but the end result is different from the intention of the protesters and their intention right now seems to be pure, just, and righteous freedom.
Every monster is history has started out with what he thought were the best intentions, and that is why they say that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. What matters is results, not intentions. The French wanted Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. They ended up with the guillotine and Napoleon. The Germans wanted to end reparations and the humilation of the Treaty of Versailles. They gave us the Holocaust.


Let me be clear, they are compelled by the direction towards greater freedom and that is to be admired, even joyous of - if external forces enter the picture and shape the eventual outcome, we will have to examine how and why that unfolds but for the moment it is inspiring
External forces? The Muslim Brotherhood started in Egypt. It's a home-grown movement! And if they really were compelled by freedom, why attack western journalists? Why loot museums and destroy antiquities? Why liberate terrorists from prison? This isn't about freedom, it's a brief interlude of anarchy before the next thug takes power.

The gesture is a gesture towards freedom, the will to freedom has taken over their hearts and minds and they are taking a step into the unknown. I don't know what will happen but I admire their spirit.

When they are raining missiles on their neighbors (and that includes the neighbors across the Mediterranean), you will see their spirit for what it is, the spirit of hate, submission to a hellish 7th century totalitarian doctrine, and mass murder. I'm going to save this exchange, Wei, because when it goes to hell, and it will, I'm going to rub your nose in your arrogance and stupidity. It will not be much consolation to me, as I will probably be busy cleaning up this mess for the next few decades, but at least you will be reminded of how wrong you were.

Wei Wu Wei
02-03-2011, 12:11 PM
But the past determined that future. The Colonies were self-governing. Each Colony had a legislature that was elected by the colonists. Each colony had the rule of law, imposed from within, and a culture of civil institutions that meant that when the British were driven out, there was no power vaccuum. Compare that to France or Russia, neither of which had any semblance of self-rule prior to their revolutions. The results were anarchy, followed by dictatorship and terror. Look at Egypt and tell me whether the average Egyptian thinks more like an American colonist or a French peasant or Russian serf.


You are astonishingly clueless. Given a choice between Franco (like Mubarak, a relatively moderate autocrat) and Hitler (like the Muslim Brotherhood, who learned a great deal from him, a genocidal totalitarian), you opt for Stalin (a secular leftist). There is no secular left in the Muslim world because they have tried Socialism and failed. The Soviets introduced central planning to their allies when they provided them with technical assistance, and the Ba'athist regimes, which were modelled on the Nazi and Communist Parties, took to it like a duck to water, except that in the long term, the duck drowned.

I'm not saying there needs to be only secular leftists, I'm saying without a strong organized leftist voice in the movement, there will be a power void and religious fundamentalists will take over.

The Soviet Union is actually more popular in Egypt than in the US There was a guy in a photo I saw yesterday wearing a Soviet Union shirt.

It's not because "it failed" that leftism isn't around in Egypt, it's because Leftism is anti-oppression and Mubarak worked hard to marginalize any opposition voices in his region. Keep in mind, he did this with American Aid and an American funded military.

If the MB comes to power, it's our own fault for supplying Mubarak with the weapons needed to rid the country of any secular leftist voice.






Wow, what drivel. You applaud a "gesture" that will lead Egypt to step into darkness

Yes that's precisely right. That's exactly what faith is, stepping into the darkness with your head held high, not knowing what will happen. This is faith in action.


(and most likely off a cliff in the dark). This is the ultimate elevation of empty rhetoric over substance. The gesture that you are lauding is an upraised middle finger to 1,400 years of civilization in those parts of the world that didn't stagnate under Islam.

The people seem to say otherwise.





Every monster is history has started out with what he thought were the best intentions, and that is why they say that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. What matters is results, not intentions. The French wanted Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. They ended up with the guillotine and Napoleon. The Germans wanted to end reparations and the humilation of the Treaty of Versailles. They gave us the Holocaust.


External forces? The Muslim Brotherhood started in Egypt. It's a home-grown movement! And if they really were compelled by freedom, why attack western journalists? Why loot museums and destroy antiquities? Why liberate terrorists from prison? This isn't about freedom, it's a brief interlude of anarchy before the next thug takes power.


It's not one homogenous group. there are many different forces, people, perspective,desires, age groups, and more in egypt and with no police is it all that surprising?

Can you even begin to imagine the chaos that would ensue if the police in America were no more?




When they are raining missiles on their neighbors (and that includes the neighbors across the Mediterranean), you will see their spirit for what it is, the spirit of hate, submission to a hellish 7th century totalitarian doctrine, and mass murder. I'm going to save this exchange, Wei, because when it goes to hell, and it will, I'm going to rub your nose in your arrogance and stupidity. It will not be much consolation to me, as I will probably be busy cleaning up this mess for the next few decades, but at least you will be reminded of how wrong you were.

okay whatever helps you sleep at night

Odysseus
02-03-2011, 01:27 PM
I'm not saying there needs to be only secular leftists, I'm saying without a strong organized leftist voice in the movement, there will be a power void and religious fundamentalists will take over.
This is a straw man argument. The absense of an organized left doesn't equal a power vacuum, it just means that one element of the political spectrum is not represented. There is also no organized free-market group capitalist group. There is one major opposition group, which appeals to a huge swath of Egyptian society, and that group, the Muslim Brotherhood, is going to take power.


The Soviet Union is actually more popular in Egypt than in the US There was a guy in a photo I saw yesterday wearing a Soviet Union shirt.

Well, one shirt says it all, doesn't it? :rolleyes: The Egyptian jihadis who went to Afghanistan in the 80s and now provide aid to the Chechens might just disagree with you.


It's not because "it failed" that leftism isn't around in Egypt, it's because Leftism is anti-oppression and Mubarak worked hard to marginalize any opposition voices in his region. Keep in mind, he did this with American Aid and an American funded military.
Leftism isn't anti-oppression, it is oppression! Leftist regimes have murdered more people in the last century than all of the other ideologies in history combined.


If the MB comes to power, it's our own fault for supplying Mubarak with the weapons needed to rid the country of any secular leftist voice.
Wow. Just, wow. The degree of delusion in that one sentence is just astounding. Mubarak didn't suppress the communists. They were never a threat to him because they were discredited after the Soviets were booted by Sadat. The Egyptian Communists were never suppressed. The only factions not permitted by Law 40, the 1977 law that regulated political parties, were religious-based parties, for the sole purpose of suppressing the Muslim Brotherhood. There are a bunch of leftist parties in Egypt, and none of them amount to anything because they have no appeal. Here's a list of leftist parties in Egypt:


Progressive National Unionist Party (Hizb al Tagammo' al Watani al Taqadommi al Wahdwawi') - Leftist party, founded 7-7-1977.
Egyptian Arab Socialist Party (Hizb Misr al-arabi al-ishtaraki), founded 7-7-1977.333
The Socialist Labour Party (Labour Party), founded 11-12-1978 - Suspended.
Umma Party (Hizb al-Umma), founded 26-5-1983.
Young Egypt Party (Hizb Misr El-Fatah), founded 14-4-1990.
Arab Democratic Nasserist Party or Nasserist Party, founded 19-4-1992.
The Social Justice Party, founded 6-6-1993.
National Conciliation Party (Hizb al-Wifak), founded 2-3-2000.
Egypt 2000 Party, founded 7-4-2001.
National Democratic Party ('Al'Hizb Al Watani Al Democrati'), founded 1-10-1978.3


The weapons that we gave Mubarak were never used on Egyptian leftists. They were used to suppress the Muslim Brotherhood, but don't let the facts change your mind.

You really can blame anything on the US, can't you?


Yes that's precisely right. That's exactly what faith is, stepping into the darkness with your head held high, not knowing what will happen. This is faith in action.
The atheist professes faith? ROFLOL!!!

You place your faith in a mob that has no idea of what it is doing, that seeks to destroy what is there, but no concept of how to replace it, and which, when it is driven to act, will do so based on the most primitive impulses and superstitions. It is a mob that treats women as chattel, has paranoid delusions about Jews and the US and will immediately fall prey to the depredations of the Muslim Brotherhood.


The people seem to say otherwise.

Ah, so now you also read Arabic? You know what is on the protest signs? You understand why the people, when given the opportunity, attacked American journalists? Why every anti-American group in the Middle East is applauding this, from al Qaeda to Iran? I cannot believe that you are this clueless.


It's not one homogenous group. there are many different forces, people, perspective,desires, age groups, and more in egypt and with no police is it all that surprising?

Can you even begin to imagine the chaos that would ensue if the police in America were no more?
Can you imagine a set of circumstances in which all civil order in the US would break down like this? I'm not talking about the Rodney King riots, which were limited to Los Angeles and a few small incidents in other cities, I'm talking about a complete collapse of all civil and military institutions. We don't have this level of insanity because we have a history of self-government and a culture that precludes this kind of idiocy. The places where people take to the streets and violently attack their neighbors are places where the dominant ethos is one of pervasive mistrust and the absence of civic culture.


okay whatever helps you sleep at night

Given that I, and many like me, will be spending the next few years trying to mitigate the damage and confine the threat, I don't expect to get much sleep, but you'll have no problem dozing, thanks to us. Just remember how wrong you were when it all goes up, Wei, in case I'm too busy putting out fires to remind you.

Sonnabend
02-03-2011, 02:25 PM
Christians Form a Human Chain to Protect Their Muslim Brothers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brothers) While They Pray During the Lawless Protests:will eventually become

Christians hung from Chains by their Muslim brothers for not "reverting"...tjhat's what they call it, did you know that? "Reverting" to Islam? How exactly is unknown as one "reverts" to a previous state.....then again, the ROPMA™ has never been "peaceful".


Can you imagine a set of circumstances in which all civil order in the US would break down like this? I'm not talking about the Rodney King riots, which were limited to Los Angeles and a few small incidents in other cities, I'm talking about a complete collapse of all civil and military institutions. We don't have this level of insanity because we have a history of self-government and a culture that precludes this kind of idiocy. The places where people take to the streets and violently attack their neighbors are places where the dominant ethos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethos) is one of pervasive mistrust and the absence of civic culture.

..and usually where Islam is dominant.

Odysseus
02-03-2011, 05:54 PM
An interesting observation from Jay Nordlinger:


In the months following 9/11, some conservatives said, “The Left is joining hands with radical Islam. They will work against Western civilization together.” I thought this seemed a little extreme. But some of the conservatives made a good case. And, over the decade, the evidence has burgeoned.

This brings me to Ken Livingstone — “Red Ken,” the former mayor of London. He is not a Red, officially. He is a Labourite. And he is again Labour’s candidate for mayor (in the next election, 2012).

Livingstone is also an employee of Press TV, the Iranian government’s propaganda arm in English. It was launched by Ahmadinejad in 2007. Among Press TV’s achievements is to have defamed Sakineh Ashtiani, the woman sentenced to be stoned to death for adultery and murder. (She is innocent, of course.) Writing for the Telegraph, Toby Young says, “I cannot see any meaningful difference between Ken Livingstone and Lord Haw-Haw.” Iran supports much of the Iraqi insurgency, with which Britain is at war.

Now, you can understand how the Left gets peeved when you say that many of their number are allied with radical Islam. Yet — what do you do with cases like Livingstone’s? What do you do with Cynthia McKinney when she appears on al-Jazeera wearing an Islamic headdress? I think we can say that, where the anti-Western energy goes, there goes the Left. So it was with Communism. So it is now.

Is that too harsh?

So, Wei, you don't have to worry about the absence of leftists in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood will do their work for them.