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Gingersnap
02-11-2011, 10:49 AM
White House regroups after Mubarak stunner


http://i52.tinypic.com/2ryhutg.jpg
Barack Obama speaks in Michigan. | AP Photo
'It is not yet clear that this transition is immediate, meaningful or sufficient,' said the president. | AP Photo Close


By JOSH GERSTEIN & LAURA ROZEN | 2/10/11 8:29 PM EST Updated: 2/11/11 6:56 AM EST

For a few hours Thursday, it seemed as though the Obama administration was on the verge of achieving one of its central goals in the Egypt crisis: pressuring Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to resign.

During a morning hearing on Capitol Hill, Central Intelligence Agency Director Leon Panetta spoke of a “strong likelihood that Mubarak may step down,” though the CIA chief later indicated that his comments were based on news reports. Panetta and other top officials also speculated openly about the benefits that a democratic Egypt could bring to the Middle East and the battle against Al Qaeda.

In a speech in Michigan, President Barack Obama seemed to feed the narrative that dramatic change in Egypt was imminent. “What is absolutely clear is that we are witnessing history unfold,” an upbeat Obama said. “It’s a moment of transformation that’s taking place because the people of Egypt are calling for change.”

But by evening, the Obama team’s hopes for an “immediate” transition seemed to have been dashed as Mubarak took to the airwaves in Egypt to say he planned to stay as president until September but cede an unspecified degree of authority to his hand-picked vice president, Omar Suleiman.

Responding to the day’s events in a statement that did not mention Mubarak, Obama said that while a “transition of authority” has been promised the Egyptian people, “it is not yet clear that this transition is immediate, meaningful or sufficient.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49292.html#ixzz1DfLGEaUK

txradioguy
02-11-2011, 11:07 AM
Talk about the gang that can't shoot straight.

Instead of "improving" our foreign relations these nitwits are the ones setting us back 50 years and making us the laughing stock.

bijou
02-11-2011, 11:12 AM
Mubarak has now resigned http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

Wei Wu Wei
02-11-2011, 11:42 AM
Weak ass Obama.

He could have took a firm hard position from the beginning and sided with democracy, freedom, anti-authoritarianism, and supported the protesters and even had his own "Tear Down This Wall" moment.

But nope, predictably enough he flaked, dancing around the limitations of the Empire trying not to step on the wrong toes while avoiding the obvious fact that we've been supporting an oppressive dictator.

Madisonian
02-11-2011, 12:21 PM
Weak ass Obama.

He could have took a firm hard position from the beginning and sided with democracy, freedom, anti-authoritarianism, and supported the protesters and even had his own "Tear Down This Wall" moment.

But nope, predictably enough he flaked, dancing around the limitations of the Empire trying not to step on the wrong toes while avoiding the obvious fact that we've been supporting an oppressive dictator.

Why would Obama take the stand in Egypt that you stated when this is the antithesis of what he stands for in our own country?

And frankly, who is Obama to tell any other sovereign country, which like it or not, Egypt is, how they should run it politically.
That is no different than Mubarak, Saud or NutJob Achmedinajohn (or however the fuck you cough up his name) telling us how to run ours.

KhrushchevsShoe
02-11-2011, 01:36 PM
Weak ass Obama.

He could have took a firm hard position from the beginning and sided with democracy, freedom, anti-authoritarianism, and supported the protesters and even had his own "Tear Down This Wall" moment.

But nope, predictably enough he flaked, dancing around the limitations of the Empire trying not to step on the wrong toes while avoiding the obvious fact that we've been supporting an oppressive dictator.

Agreed, this was our shot to really prove to the Middle East and North Africa that we actually do care about them breaking free from oppression and understanding our way of life. Completely blew it.

Wei Wu Wei
02-11-2011, 01:41 PM
It has something to do with the enormous sums of military aid the US supplied to Mubarak which allowed him to abuse the rights of the egyptian people.

There is something morally wrong when we simply look the other way when a nation uses our military aid to do terrible things. "They are an ally" isn't enough, it may be true sometimes but this total disregard for what's right in the face of what's strategic. Obviously compromises must be made but that doesn't mean pretending to be oblivious when our own money and weapons are being used for war crimes or human rights abuses. This applies to several nations we have dealings with. Of course none of it matters, people get more upset about their tax dollars going to welfare than they are about it going to apartheid.

txradioguy
02-11-2011, 01:41 PM
Agreed, this was our shot to really prove to the Middle East and North Africa that we actually do care about them breaking free from oppression and understanding our way of life. Completely blew it.

And to think that very same concept is brushed off as "jingoistic hegemony" by you Libtards when a Republican politician expresses the same desires for a repressed country.

:rolleyes:

KhrushchevsShoe
02-11-2011, 02:27 PM
And to think that very same concept is brushed off as "jingoistic hegemony" by you Libtards when a Republican politician expresses the same desires for a repressed country.

:rolleyes:

This was a popular upswell, not us dropping 2000 lb kegs of democracy on people.

txradioguy
02-11-2011, 02:33 PM
This was a popular upswell, not us dropping 2000 lb kegs of democracy on people.

No...that was Muslim Brotherhood inciting people to revolt against what had been a stable part of the ME.

God....can we get at least one Libtard troll here with half a brain?

Lanie
02-11-2011, 02:57 PM
What Obama should do is say that we're going to stay out of things and that we'll start giving aid again when they have a leader that's not a dictator or the Muslim Brotherhood.

Nubs
02-11-2011, 06:17 PM
What Obama should do is say that we're going to stay out of things and that we'll start giving aid again when they have a leader that's not a dictator or the Muslim Brotherhood.

I disagree, this would just set the stage for Chavez, Ackmadinnerjacket, China, or Russia the opportunity to fill the aid void. We should set forth the CIA to ensure the chips fall on our side. However, after the DNI describing the Muslim Brotherhood as a community organizing group, who knows what the f*ck will happen.

Sonnabend
02-12-2011, 04:30 PM
This was a popular upswell, not us dropping 2000 lb kegs of democracy on people.

This was the Muslim Brotherhood taking an advantage, and another step towards the global Khalifate they are drooling over.

Are you seriously that fucking naive?

I give Egypt six months. Then we see another Iran..another Muslim dominated third world shithole.

KhrushchevsShoe
02-15-2011, 01:56 PM
This was the Muslim Brotherhood taking an advantage, and another step towards the global Khalifate they are drooling over.

Are you seriously that fucking naive?

I give Egypt six months. Then we see another Iran..another Muslim dominated third world shithole.

I'm not really sure this was organized, or at least not politically, and I think that's kind of where a lot of the failure by the United States to understand what this situation stems from. The entire lens through which we've viewed the revolutions in Egypt has been economic or political. The Muslim Brotherhood has been a buzz word, the Suez Canal has been made into an issue and people are throwing around the same cliched elements of Middle Eastern politics that have been thrown around since decolonization. I mean I dont want to just come out and say this shit is basically inconsequential, but it sort of is.

The issue has always been, like it was in areas I'm much more fluent with in Eastern Europe and the former USSR, a dignity one. The contempt for the state in Egypt is not a fresh movement and its not necessarily bred out of a political desire to govern themselves. Democracy of course complements this revolution but its not the end-goal. There was an editorial by Nikolai Grozni in the NYT a day or so ago that likened the collapse of the Soviet bloc and independence of the former republics to the Egyptian revolts that I think really nailed it, and he does a much better job of articulating how this works than I'm about to do.

When there's repression in a state it starts to form these alternate political and moral universes, where people are fed up with their quality of life as provided by the regime and the regimes response to it falls into a predictable pattern. At first they repress further but then work to install or amend the regime to be more friendly to the current power structure while still palatable to people who are unhappy with the current situation. Think Hungary in 1956, during Nagy's brief stint running the country after Rakosi resigned there were some sweeping reforms in the country and even demands for Hungary to withdraw from the Warsaw Pact. Of course Soviet tanks rolled in, killed half of them and put Kadar in power under a new very Soviet-friendly government. But even after 1956 Hungary became probably (other than Yugoslavia and maybe Albania) the most independent and least-communist state in Eastern Europe with a lot of reforms by Kadar. Hungarians still rejected the new party, but without the power to match the Soviets many of them simply began to drop out from society. Quality of life didn't necessarily improve in Hungary, just like it didn't in Poland after the de-collectivization of agriculture in the 50's or in Czechoslovakia after the Prague Spring, but it started eroding the states notion of a politically "guaranteed" moral universe and forming an alternate moral universe in its place. One where people actually feel like they dont need the state to feel dignified and they dont have a despot who holds them back. As time goes by more people subscribe to the alternative until the political institutions that enabled a wholly political response to what was clearly a moral problem evaporates.

That's kind of what just happened in Egypt. Enough people dropped out that the idea of rejecting the government became rapidly contagious, and without an overwhelming outside influence like the Soviets willing to put it down it actually succeeded in toppling Mubarak. What's happening in Egypt is not about installing democracy or realigning the power structure in the country, its about people wanting to be treated like people. That's why its impossible for there to really be an organized political backdrop fueling the revolution. So what you have is a very prominent state reseting its trajectory, not necessarily in another direction, but just taking it off the path it was going down. Its a very exciting time for Egyptians, and something the rest of the world shouldn't fear but instead start embracing. There are a lot of people in other countries watching this and understanding that they dont have to submit themselves to the state and be continually repressed. We'll see where it goes.

Apache
02-15-2011, 02:29 PM
This was a popular upswell, not us dropping 2000 lb kegs of democracy on people.

So this is the Egyptian version of the Tea Party for you?

Apache
02-15-2011, 02:33 PM
This was the Muslim Brotherhood taking an advantage, and another step towards the global Khalifate they are drooling over.

Are you seriously that fucking naive?

I give Egypt six months. Then we see another Iran..another Muslim dominated third world shithole.

Exactly the way I see it as well. Zero is already following Carter's playbook so well he may as well have his own version of Iran too....

Apache
02-15-2011, 02:35 PM
I'm not really sure this was organized, or at least not politically, and I think that's kind of where a lot of the failure by the United States to understand what this situation stems from. The entire lens through which we've viewed the revolutions in Egypt has been economic or political. The Muslim Brotherhood has been a buzz word, the Suez Canal has been made into an issue and people are throwing around the same cliched elements of Middle Eastern politics that have been thrown around since decolonization. I mean I dont want to just come out and say this shit is basically inconsequential, but it sort of is.

The issue has always been, like it was in areas I'm much more fluent with in Eastern Europe and the former USSR, a dignity one. The contempt for the state in Egypt is not a fresh movement and its not necessarily bred out of a political desire to govern themselves. Democracy of course complements this revolution but its not the end-goal. There was an editorial by Nikolai Grozni in the NYT a day or so ago that likened the collapse of the Soviet bloc and independence of the former republics to the Egyptian revolts that I think really nailed it, and he does a much better job of articulating how this works than I'm about to do.

When there's repression in a state it starts to form these alternate political and moral universes, where people are fed up with their quality of life as provided by the regime and the regimes response to it falls into a predictable pattern. At first they repress further but then work to install or amend the regime to be more friendly to the current power structure while still palatable to people who are unhappy with the current situation. Think Hungary in 1956, during Nagy's brief stint running the country after Rakosi resigned there were some sweeping reforms in the country and even demands for Hungary to withdraw from the Warsaw Pact. Of course Soviet tanks rolled in, killed half of them and put Kadar in power under a new very Soviet-friendly government. But even after 1956 Hungary became probably (other than Yugoslavia and maybe Albania) the most independent and least-communist state in Eastern Europe with a lot of reforms by Kadar. Hungarians still rejected the new party, but without the power to match the Soviets many of them simply began to drop out from society. Quality of life didn't necessarily improve in Hungary, just like it didn't in Poland after the de-collectivization of agriculture in the 50's or in Czechoslovakia after the Prague Spring, but it started eroding the states notion of a politically "guaranteed" moral universe and forming an alternate moral universe in its place. One where people actually feel like they dont need the state to feel dignified and they dont have a despot who holds them back. As time goes by more people subscribe to the alternative until the political institutions that enabled a wholly political response to what was clearly a moral problem evaporates.

That's kind of what just happened in Egypt. Enough people dropped out that the idea of rejecting the government became rapidly contagious, and without an overwhelming outside influence like the Soviets willing to put it down it actually succeeded in toppling Mubarak. What's happening in Egypt is not about installing democracy or realigning the power structure in the country, its about people wanting to be treated like people. That's why its impossible for there to really be an organized political backdrop fueling the revolution. So what you have is a very prominent state reseting its trajectory, not necessarily in another direction, but just taking it off the path it was going down. Its a very exciting time for Egyptians, and something the rest of the world shouldn't fear but instead start embracing. There are a lot of people in other countries watching this and understanding that they dont have to submit themselves to the state and be continually repressed. We'll see where it goes.

Reader's Digest version: Iran ver. 2.0

NJCardFan
02-15-2011, 02:47 PM
Why is it when we ditch one troll, another takes their place? Think about it. Stupidicus gets tossed, Yukon comes back. Yukon gets tossed, and krushev's anus returns.

Apache
02-15-2011, 02:58 PM
Why is it when we ditch one troll, another takes their place? Think about it. Stupidicus gets tossed, Yukon comes back. Yukon gets tossed, and krushev's anus returns.

Stup was on time out, hamp timed out yukon just stup's return. Hamp then banned stup fer good slightly ahead of yuk's return...


commiefootwear just stops by every once in a while....

lacarnut
02-15-2011, 03:55 PM
commiefootwear just stops by every once in a while....

You ever notice that these liberal turds never want to overthrow enemy governments such as the current administration in Iran. Not a peep from the Magic Negro either but when it's a stable, friendly government to the US, it's balls to the wall and the leader has to go. The Shah is another example of dumb ass Democratic Presidents taking sides. God help us if we do not get this idiot out of office within the next two years.

Apache
02-15-2011, 04:19 PM
You ever notice that these liberal turds never want to overthrow enemy governments such as the current administration in Iran. Not a peep from the Magic Negro either but when it's a stable, friendly government to the US, it's balls to the wall and the leader has to go. The Shah is another example of dumb ass Democratic Presidents taking sides. God help us if we do not get this idiot out of office within the next two years.

Yeah I've noticed, and had the MB not been a part of inciting this I might have been for it as well. These Egyptians are being played just like the Iranians in '79. Unfortunately, like a majority of boobs here in'08, the Egyptians took what sounds good now, over what will happen if. Now we have to sit back and watch what transpires....

AmPat
02-15-2011, 04:40 PM
What Obama should do is say that we're going to stay out of things and that we'll start giving aid again when they have a leader that's not a dictator or the Muslim Brotherhood.

NO------------------------NO-----------------------------------NO!:mad:

Why is "giving aid" such a reflex action? We should NOT be giving aid to foreign counties when we are broke and we should get away from the automatic give aid mentality. Does any country (other than China) have this auto-reflexive action to give the US aid?