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View Full Version : Scott Walker giving it to State employee Union hacks



fettpett
02-17-2011, 07:46 AM
My home state of Wisconsin is finally taking it to the State employee Unions. As of the many states that have been in the red for the last 10 years, Walker got elected to sort out the budget. One month in he's laid out a plan that hampers the Union's hold on the state. Walkers plan calls for union works to pay 5.8% of their Pension, 12% of their health care costs and gets rid of their bargaining rights. They will have to pay their union dues out of pocket instead of having it deducted, their pay increases will be tied to inflation and will have to have a local referendum to increase their pay.

Walker is the first Governor to finally have the guts to stand up to the Unions that have controlled the state for the last 40+ years and to help reduce or eliminate a 3.6 BILLION dollar shortfall that it has projected for the next 3 years. The measures he's purposed will save the state 30 Million by July and 300 Million over the next 2.

Whats the kicker is that He is being compared to Mubarak, even though he has only been in office for 30 days, not 30 years, and hasn't done anything oppressive. It just shows the complete and utter lack of clarity by the liberal idiots that run the unions and are members of the unions. These so called "teachers" have been protesting outside the Capital Building in Madison for the last two days and going into a third today have shut down schools, 40% of Madison School district schools teachers called in "sick" yesterday and they had to close down the schools. Some "teachers" made use of their time and dragged their students with them to Madison to carry signs for them. As a parent I would be extremely pissed if my kids had been dragged without permission to this event. Thankfully the School districts have stated that anyone without a doctor's excuse will receive disciplinary action, Milwaukee schools have said the same and haven't backed down when the Milwaukee Teachers' Union leader came out and encouraged teachers to go to Madison. Honestly I hope there is a dramatic FIRING of teachers for leaving the students they supposedly care for to go protest, particularly the ones that took their students with them.

I hope that this measure provides the inspiration for other States to pull similar measures and help regain some sanity to the school systems and bring the power back to the tax PAYERS and not leave it in the hands of the tax Payees.

http://www.htrnews.com/article/20110216/MAN0101/302170005/Photos-Budget-protests-rock-state-region
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116301539.html

Malkin has a great 3 part story on this
http://michellemalkin.com/2011/02/16/watch-wisconsin-seiu-teachers-unions-attempt-state-hijacking-over-cuts/
http://michellemalkin.com/2011/02/16/watch-wisconsin-part-ii-union-thugs-scream-at-hosni-walkermubarak-of-the-midwest-striking-teachers-tote-students-to-protest/
http://michellemalkin.com/2011/02/17/watch-wisconsin-part-iii-a-state-government-employee-speaks-madison-schools-plus-7-other-districts-shut-down-a-second-day/

and this guy is a great read on it too
http://www.timnerenz.com/2011/02/wisconsin-ranger-part-ii.html

and a link to the video that the blogger mentions
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1582221884217

Bailey
02-17-2011, 08:00 AM
The DUmmies are saying that Walker is the spark that will start a similar revolution here that was started in Egypt. :rolleyes:

fettpett
02-17-2011, 08:04 AM
The DUmmies are saying that Walker is the spark that will start a similar revolution here that was started in Egypt. :rolleyes:

probably the same dummies that are at the rallies holding up the Walker=Mubarak signs, bunch of dumbasses

Starbuck
02-17-2011, 10:35 AM
I wish Scott Walker lots of luck.

Hopefully, he has Gov Chris Cristie's (New Jersey) cellphone number so that they can talk things through. If people like Walker, Christie, and Daniels (Indiana) do not succeed now, we are in deep ka-ka.

fettpett
02-17-2011, 10:54 AM
I wish Scott Walker lots of luck.

Hopefully, he has Gov Chris Cristie's (New Jersey) cellphone number so that they can talk things through. If people like Walker, Christie, and Daniels (Indiana) do not succeed now, we are in deep ka-ka.

yeah, I hope he's got their numbers on speed dial, Cristie's so his ideas on what to say and Daniel's so they can bounce ideas of each other as they are doing similar things with their education reforms

fettpett
02-17-2011, 11:51 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=71gsnLfsbbM

lacarnut
02-17-2011, 12:07 PM
We desperately need a Repub for President that has those cost cutting ideas. I hope he succeeds.

I worked for the state of LA which is non union. We paid 40% of our health care premiums and 7% into our retirement fund which I think is more than fair. Our retirement system invests in the market and makes 8 to 10% per year which is why we are on sound financial footing. I can not say that about the bloated Teachers retirement system which is in bad financial shape.

Odysseus
02-17-2011, 12:28 PM
The DUmmies are saying that Walker is the spark that will start a similar revolution here that was started in Egypt. :rolleyes:

More like the Reagan Revolution. A mass firing of teachers who are violating the law will be as popular as Reagan's firing of the Air Traffic Controllers. The media will wring its hands, of course, but the governor has a bully pulpit and doesn't seem afraid to use it. At a time when unemployment is at 10%, nobody is going to sympathize with spoiled union hacks refusing to do their jobs because they are being told to pay into their own pension and health care funds. The out-of-pocket rule for union dues is what really enrages the unions, as we've seen what happens when unions can't automatically take money from members in other places. Their political slush funds dry up, and their influence disappears.

This is a great development.

fettpett
02-17-2011, 12:40 PM
some more posts on this


http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/116355379.html
http://www.atr.org/wisconsin-teachers-prove-point-a5865
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49706.html

Apache
02-17-2011, 01:08 PM
Every time a union screams, an Angel gets its wings...:D

Arroyo_Doble
02-17-2011, 01:26 PM
My step dad used to joke that the only unions Reagan liked were in Poland.

As far as the teachers, they should not walk out of school. They have a job that is above labor disputes. Same with many other public servants. That said, it is rude to fuck them over and cry foul when they get angry about it.

fettpett
02-17-2011, 01:30 PM
My step dad used to joke that the only unions Reagan liked were in Poland.

As far as the teachers, they should not walk out of school. They have a job that is above labor disputes. Same with many other public servants. That said, it is rude to fuck them over and cry foul when they get angry about it.

give me a break, the teachers aren't being fucked over. The were given the PRIVILEGE of collective bargaining by the legislature in 1959, they are just taking it back because it isn't working.

AND they are making out better under this than the private sector
http://maciverinstitute.com/2011/02/study-shows-even-after-limits-public-employee-benefits-would-be-extremely-generous/

Moreover, the new rate would also be less than the employee contributions required at 85 percent of large Milwaukee‐area employers.

The proposed changes would cost the average state employee an additional $1,560 per year for family coverage, but the amount they would pay ($2,496) would still be significantly less than the $3,875 average premium contribution at large private‐sector employers in southeastern Wisconsin.

“State employees will also continue to get much more for their money than their private sector counterparts,” the study reads. “The state plan offers more benefits, lower deductibles, co-pays and out of pocket maximums than the average private sector plan.”

Arroyo_Doble
02-17-2011, 01:40 PM
give me a break, the teachers aren't being fucked over. The were given the PRIVILEGE of collective bargaining by the legislature in 1959, they are just taking it back because it isn't working.

I disagree. This is an attempt to bone public employees and pearl clutching that they don't like it.


AND they are making out better under this than the private sector
http://maciverinstitute.com/2011/02/study-shows-even-after-limits-public-employee-benefits-would-be-extremely-generous/

Perhaps they should have collective bargaining.

fettpett
02-17-2011, 01:44 PM
I disagree. This is an attempt to bone public employees and pearl clutching that they don't like it.

they are public employees, they are employees of the tax payers and should be treated as such. they were given the Privilege to collectively bargain.



Perhaps they should have collective bargaining.



um...that is including private sector union's who also have the privilege to collectively bargain

Wei Wu Wei
02-17-2011, 02:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjcneEagoCE

Wei Wu Wei
02-17-2011, 02:48 PM
“State employees will also continue to get much more for their money than their private sector counterparts,” the study reads. “The state plan offers more benefits, lower deductibles, co-pays and out of pocket maximums than the average private sector plan.”

Sounds like private workers need to get their shit together

fettpett
02-17-2011, 02:52 PM
Sounds like private workers need to get their shit together

nah, sounds like the Government needs to get the hell out of their way to make it easier for them to do so

Wei Wu Wei
02-17-2011, 02:55 PM
Yes because in a capitalist economy, social relations exist in a way which naturally benefit workers.






....

fettpett
02-17-2011, 03:00 PM
Yes because in a capitalist economy, social relations exist in a way which naturally benefit workers.






....

explain

fettpett
02-17-2011, 03:03 PM
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/17/the-historical-illiteracy-of-wisconsin-teachers/

http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/wi-compassion.jpg
http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/wi-hitler3.jpg
http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/wi-hitler1.jpg
http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/wi-hitler4.jpg

I thought that we were suppose to be "civil" now


oh wait...thats only for Conservatives

Wei Wu Wei
02-17-2011, 03:08 PM
Almost all modern labor laws that are simply taken for granted were fought against tooth and nail by the establishment. All modern labor laws and standards that exist today come from the struggle of ogranized labor. This is because our system has structurally necessary internal contradictions, the struggle of which causes the motion of our society. The interests of wealthy corporate elites are not the interests of working-class employees.

Without the active force of organized labor pushing for representation in government and in law, even non-unionized workers would have lower wages and terrible benefits.

Struggle is absolutely necessary, you cannot just try to remove one side of the equation out (because that is "the bad side"), and then expect the other ("Good") side to function smoothly, you cannot have one without the other.

lacarnut
02-17-2011, 03:19 PM
I disagree. This is an attempt to bone public employees and pearl clutching that they don't like it.



Perhaps they should have collective bargaining.

Another one of your ignorant post!!

Teachers like all state employees are not entitled to the private sector paying 100% of their health insurance benefits or their retirement benefits. That is not only outrageous but unsustainable from a budgetary standpoint.

enslaved1
02-17-2011, 03:54 PM
Almost all modern labor laws that are simply taken for granted were fought against tooth and nail by the establishment. All modern labor laws and standards that exist today come from the struggle of ogranized labor. This is because our system has structurally necessary internal contradictions, the struggle of which causes the motion of our society. The interests of wealthy corporate elites are not the interests of working-class employees.

Without the active force of organized labor pushing for representation in government and in law, even non-unionized workers would have lower wages and terrible benefits.

Struggle is absolutely necessary, you cannot just try to remove one side of the equation out (because that is "the bad side"), and then expect the other ("Good") side to function smoothly, you cannot have one without the other.

Various unions had a real, solid purpose at one time. A friend aimed me at Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, which I read and compared to my own time working in packing plants. In that particular case, the mission to make safer, healthier conditions for workers and consumers, has been accomplished (save the arguments about Sinclair's communist sympathies for another discussion). Compare this to aircraft workers unions, who I still recall hearing, while I was sitting in Wichita, a city dependent on the aircraft industries, threatening a strike over a mere 10% pay increase in their new contract when most of the town, myself included, was searching and begging for work.

Yes, some good things came out of some unions. But time has changed, and many of those labor laws and union contracts need to be revisited, revised, and in some cases thrown out. Many unions, and the teachers union is one of the top ten on that list, have become useless, bloated, evil, politically motivated organizations that do nothing positive for their industry, and for that, they need to be shredded, period.

fettpett
02-17-2011, 03:55 PM
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/DNC_playing_role_in_Wisconsin_protests.html?showal l

txradioguy
02-17-2011, 04:02 PM
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/17/the-historical-illiteracy-of-wisconsin-teachers/

http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/wi-compassion.jpg
http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/wi-hitler3.jpg
http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/wi-hitler1.jpg
http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/wi-hitler4.jpg

I thought that we were suppose to be "civil" now


oh wait...thats only for Conservatives


No wonder our public education system is so screwed up in this country.

fettpett
02-17-2011, 04:02 PM
No wonder our public education system is so screwed up in this country.

yep

CueSi
02-17-2011, 04:06 PM
Fett, they're talking to the conservative talk show host on FNC (Ms. McKenna?) RIGHT NOW.

~QC

Lager
02-17-2011, 04:10 PM
They always resort to the * = Hitler reference right away. No sense of timing or proportion. Come on libs, very unimaginitive and unorginal of late. Your stale way of thinking is stifling your creativity. :D

lacarnut
02-17-2011, 04:14 PM
yep

Two of those union umm teachers have a cancer stick in their hand.

fettpett
02-17-2011, 04:26 PM
Fett, they're talking to the conservative talk show host on FNC (Ms. McKenna?) RIGHT NOW.

~QC

yeah, Vickie McKenna, She's a very straight up Conservative in WI talk radio, she's gone so far as to walk around with her gun on her hip as her WI Constitutional right gives her, cops told her to put it away.

She's started the slogan "Shut up and Teach" that the counter protesters are starting to use

Odysseus
02-17-2011, 04:43 PM
My step dad used to joke that the only unions Reagan liked were in Poland.

As far as the teachers, they should not walk out of school. They have a job that is above labor disputes. Same with many other public servants. That said, it is rude to fuck them over and cry foul when they get angry about it.
Reagan was the only former union head to become POTUS. He was president of the Screen Actors' Guild before becoming governor of California, which made him one of the most influential people in Hollywood, as well as someone who was far better acquainted with the issues of labor than just about any other politician in America. But, let us not let facts get in the way of your step father's prejudices...

I disagree. This is an attempt to bone public employees and pearl clutching that they don't like it.

Perhaps they should have collective bargaining.
The states are on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of collective bargaining with public employee unions, which use their power to influence elections, thus gaining leverage over their members' employers that would not apply in the private sector. This obvious conflict of interest, which puts politicians in the position of having to kowtow to unions in order to keep their jobs, put elected supervisors in a subordinate position to their employees.

Sounds like private workers need to get their shit together

They have, which is why the businesses in the US with the least percentage of union control are the most viable.

Arroyo_Doble
02-17-2011, 04:56 PM
Reagan was the only former union head to become POTUS. He was president of the Screen Actors' Guild before becoming governor of California, which made him one of the most influential people in Hollywood, as well as someone who was far better acquainted with the issues of labor than just about any other politician in America. But, let us not let facts get in the way of your step father's prejudices...

It was a joke. Laugh or not. Regardless, move past it.

BTW, Reagan was also a Democrat at one time so what he was and what he became, are two entirely different things. Most people are like that. I, for example, was an Objectivist when I was young but I decided to put away childish things.


The states are on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of collective bargaining with public employee unions

Bullshit. Complete Fox Limbaugh bullshit. Use some of that so-called brain of yours to determine what the problem with the fiscal situation of the Several States is. It damn sure isn't because the person teaching kids that you wouldn't last two days with before descending into tears or rage gets a mammogram paid for every five years.

Try not to be an ignorant douche.


They have, which is why the businesses in the US with the least percentage of union control are the most viable.

And why wages have stagnated or declined. Save your Market worship for the true believers, Mullah.

txradioguy
02-17-2011, 05:05 PM
It was a joke. Laugh or not. Regardless, move past it.
:rolleyes:



BTW, Reagan was also a Democrat at one time so what he was and what he became, are two entirely different things. Most people are like that.

"I didn't leave the Democratic Party. The party left me." - Ronald Reagan




I, for example, was an Objectivist when I was young but I decided to put away childish things.

Never knew a backbone was "childish".




Bullshit. Complete Fox Limbaugh bullshit. Use some of that so-called brain of yours to determine what the problem with the fiscal situation of the Several States is. It damn sure isn't because the person teaching kids that you wouldn't last two days with before descending into tears or rage gets a mammogram paid for every five years.

You're reading comprehension sucks as bad as your attempts at logic and reason. He was pointing out that unions and their out of control demands are what is bankrupting several states. How you broke it down to that babble you did is beyond me.

Unions have stopped serving their original purpose and turned into PAC with the sole purpose of making the people that run them rich and doling out enough money to the right politician to ensure they keep getting rich.

You're more delusional than anyone here ever thought if you still honestly believe that Unions serve the greater good if it's rank and file members.


Try not to be an ignorant douche.

You've got the market cornered on that.




And why wages have stagnated or declined. Save your Market worship for the true believers, Mullah.

God you're an ass hat. Can't debate the facts with someone that is clearly smarter and more well versed on the topics than you...so you revert to this?

Talk about pathetic. Go take some Midol and STFU.

patriot45
02-17-2011, 05:05 PM
Wisconsin democrat lawmakers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StHwAffUNxo

malloc
02-17-2011, 05:11 PM
Yes because in a capitalist economy, social relations exist in a way which naturally benefit workers..

One of the few true statements you have ever uttered on this board, and you said it sarcastically.

Tell me Wei, if capitalism creates such unruly social conditions, why has the United States enjoyed nearly 150 years of civil peace while socialist nations like the former USSR, southeast asia, parts of Africa and South America are constantly riddled with internal strife and bloodshed.

Once again, reality doesn't line up with your socialistic fantasyland which will never exist and cannot function.

As for these teachers, what a waste of resources they are. I think the Governor should fire them all. It's about time Governor's from all over took a stand against these vampiric unions which seem to exist only to bleed the coffers dry. The taxpayers obviously aren't satisfied with the bang they are getting for their buck.

Arroyo_Doble
02-17-2011, 05:12 PM
God you're an ass hat. Can't debate the facts with someone that is clearly smarter and more well versed on the topics than you...so you revert to this?

I already posted the facts of the so-called fiscal problem in Wisconsin. Weird no one addressed it .... well, not weird .... predictable.

And that is not even getting into the legislation prior to this attempt at union busting that had an impact on the fiscal health of Wisconsin. You know about that, TX? Probably not.

fettpett
02-17-2011, 05:46 PM
I already posted the facts of the so-called fiscal problem in Wisconsin. Weird no one addressed it .... well, not weird .... predictable.

And that is not even getting into the legislation prior to this attempt at union busting that had an impact on the fiscal health of Wisconsin. You know about that, TX? Probably not.

I addressed it asshat I posted 3 links that proved you and weni boy wrong, the only links you guys posted were liberal hack website.

malloc
02-17-2011, 05:52 PM
I addressed it asshat I posted 3 links that proved you and weni boy wrong, the only links you guys posted were liberal hack website.

Can you link me the thread please? I'd like to look it over.

fettpett
02-17-2011, 05:57 PM
Can you link me the thread please? I'd like to look it over.

http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=37078

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/98116689.html

http://maciverinstitute.com/2011/02/study-shows-even-after-limits-public-employee-benefits-would-be-extremely-generous/

fettpett
02-17-2011, 06:02 PM
http://www.mbo.wisc.edu/biennial/bienn1113/2010_07_09_WI%20Leg.pdf
http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf

here are a couple more links to pdf's that talk about them
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/103530269.html
and the Journal Sentinel article with them.

every other report talks about the states budget shortfalls, the only ones to claim that they don't have one is this One Wisconsin Now liberal hack group

lacarnut
02-17-2011, 06:12 PM
I already posted the facts of the so-called fiscal problem in Wisconsin. Weird no one addressed it .... well, not weird .... predictable.

And that is not even getting into the legislation prior to this attempt at union busting that had an impact on the fiscal health of Wisconsin. You know about that, TX? Probably not.

You did not respond to my post (#22)cause defending the indefensible is impossible . That is why you did not try. Pulling a Yukon on us, hey.

fettpett
02-17-2011, 06:15 PM
all these "poor" teachers and their "poor" salaries

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/02/17/watch-wisconsin-part-iv-the-salary-info-big-labor-doesnt-want-you-to-see/

Watch Wisconsin, Part IV: Salary info Big Labor doesn’t want you to see
By Michelle Malkin • February 17, 2011 06:06 PM
Like I’ve been saying, there are certainly many, many Americans who would love to do the jobs these public employees don’t seem to want to do (h/t reader R.F.).
Year Prorated Salary Full Name Position Title District (Hire Agency)
2010 $198,500 Daniel Nerad District Administrator Madison Metropolitan Sch Dist
2010 $184,000 Gregory Maass District Administrator Green Bay Area Sch Dist
2010 $180,000 James Shaw District Administrator Racine Sch Dist
2010 $175,062 William Andrekopoulos District Administrator Milwaukee Sch Dist
2010 $170,850 James Rickabaugh District Administrator Whitefish Bay Sch Dist
2010 $166,089 Paul Kreutzer District Administrator New Berlin Sch Dist
2010 $165,626 Thomas Westerhaus District Administrator River Falls Sch Dist
2010 $164,779 Karen Petric District Administrator Whitnall Sch Dist
2010 $163,256 William Hughes District Administrator Greendale Sch Dist
2010 $162,000 Ronald Heilmann District Administrator Eau Claire Area Sch Dist
2010 $159,299 Eric Hartwig Director of Special Education Marathon Co CDEB
2010 $157,926 Steve Patz District Administrator Franklin Public Sch Dist
2010 $156,783 Norman Fjelstad District Administrator Edgerton Sch Dist
2010 $154,993 Daryl Herrick District Administrator Cedarburg Sch Dist
2010 $154,895 Kathleen Cooke District Administrator Hamilton Sch Dist
2010 $154,652 Craig Gerlach District Administrator Monona Grove Sch Dist
2010 $154,463 Stephen Murley District Administrator Wausau Sch Dist
2010 $153,681 Timothy Gavigan District Administrator Cooperative Ed Serv Agcy 01
2010 $153,466 Matthew Gibson District Administrator Elmbrook Sch Dist
2010 $152,256 Robert Crist District Administrator Wisconsin Rapids Sch Dist
2010 $152,250 Blane Mccann District Administrator Shorewood Sch Dist
2010 $152,000 James Sebert District Administrator Fond du Lac Sch Dist
2010 $150,800 Paul Strobel District Administrator Mukwonago Sch Dist
2010 $150,000 Karen Schulte District Administrator Janesville Sch Dist
2010 $150,000 Joseph Mangi District Administrator Kenosha Sch Dist
2010 $149,991 Michael Weber District Administrator Port Washington-Saukville Sch
2010 $149,900 Steven Johnson District Administrator Stevens Point Area Sch Dist
2010 $149,000 Lee Allinger District Administrator Appleton Area Sch Dist
2010 $148,997 Pamela Nash Assistant District Administrator Madison Metropolitan Sch Dist
2010 $148,920 Jeffrey Pechura District Administrator Grafton Sch Dist
2010 $148,884 Richard Monroe District Administrator Nicolet UHS Sch Dist
2010 $148,795 Phillip Ertl District Administrator Wauwatosa Sch Dist
2010 $148,504 Brian Busler District Administrator Oregon Sch Dist
2010 $148,500 Todd Gray District Administrator Waukesha Sch Dist
2010 $148,450 Sara Burmeister District Administrator Oak Creek-Franklin Sch Dist
2010 $148,125 Joann Sternke District Administrator Pewaukee Sch Dist
2010 $148,020 Kurt Wachholz District Administrator West Allis Sch Dist
2010 $147,680 Patricia E Neudecker District Administrator Oconomowoc Area Sch Dist
2010 $147,659 Craig Jefson District Administrator Arrowhead UHS Sch Dist
2010 $147,347 Patricia Herdrich District Administrator West Bend Sch Dist
2010 $145,959 Donald Johnson District Administrator Middleton-Cross Plains Sch Dist


there are MUCH more

malloc
02-17-2011, 06:34 PM
http://www.mbo.wisc.edu/biennial/bienn1113/2010_07_09_WI%20Leg.pdf
http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf

here are a couple more links to pdf's that talk about them
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/103530269.html
and the Journal Sentinel article with them.

every other report talks about the states budget shortfalls, the only ones to claim that they don't have one is this One Wisconsin Now liberal hack group

Interesting reads. Once again it appears our resident libtards don't know which end is up. It also looks like the cuts these so-called teachers face aren't that drastic and is just a single part of longer term budget fixes. Stripping them of their collective bargaining privilege they have enjoyed and abused for so long seems to be a step toward making sure Wisconsin won't have to fix this problem again in the future.

Odysseus
02-17-2011, 06:36 PM
It was a joke. Laugh or not. Regardless, move past it.
Sorry, it's hard to separate your deliberate humor from your unintentional humor.


BTW, Reagan was also a Democrat at one time so what he was and what he became, are two entirely different things. Most people are like that. I, for example, was an Objectivist when I was young but I decided to put away childish things.
Churchill had the best line on that, which is that if you are young, and not a socialist, you have no heart. If you are old and still a socialist, you have no brain. Reagan had both, and apparently, you lacked both.


Bullshit. Complete Fox Limbaugh bullshit. Use some of that so-called brain of yours to determine what the problem with the fiscal situation of the Several States is. It damn sure isn't because the person teaching kids that you wouldn't last two days with before descending into tears or rage gets a mammogram paid for every five years.

Try not to be an ignorant douche.
Wow, that touched a nerve. Aside from your invective, is there an argument there, or are you just trying to shout me down because I'm correct? Don't answer, you won't admit it, but we both know that it is the truth. The problems with the fiscal situations of the states is that they have spent more money than they have. The problem with this, as Margaret Thatcher stated, is that eventually you run out of other people's money. The public sector unions are the driving force for that spending, and education unions are the worst offenders. From IBD:


State and local governments face financial difficulties in 2011 and 2012 more severe than they have seen in generations. Pessimists predict major municipal or even state bankruptcies. Optimists insist that, while serious budget problems will increase rather than ease, governments will skirt default by sharply increasing taxes and cutting deeply into services.

Unfortunately, while the threat of increasing Medicaid costs has received significant attention, politicians, analysts, the media and the public seem largely to have missed the $600 billion elephant in the statehouse.

The key structural problem in state and local finances is education, not health care. And a fundamental shift in our K-12 investment strategy is the only way to avoid defaulting on the promise of a public education.

The proportion of resources devoted to education has ballooned over the past two decades. Education spending as a share of tax revenue jumped 90% from 1992 to 2011 at the state level and 73% at the local level. This means governments have few options in responding to our current fiscal crisis.

In 2011, state and local governments will spend 46 cents out of every tax dollar they raise on public K-12 education. Medicaid/ CHIP spending pales in comparison at just 17 cents of every tax dollar. Public education, in other words, consumes a shocking 2 1/2 times the resources devoted to Medicaid at the height of recession-driven health care increases.

Spending Surge
Add in payments needed to meet the approximately $800 billion in underfunded commitments to teacher pension plans over the next 30 years and K-12 education gobbles up 50% of all state and local tax revenue.

Compounding the problem, a massive surge in federal education spending (the "stimulus") will recede this year while the recession drags on. Troubled local governments and school districts will call for more state aid to fill their budget gaps, but it's unlikely states will be willing or able to rescue distressed municipalities as they have in the past. States face a huge reduction in the federal share of Medicaid funding while enrollment in the program expands.

If there is a spike in municipal bankruptcies in 2011 and 2012, a primary cause will be the massive costs public schooling was already imposing when the Great Recession hit.

We face a situation analogous to that of a large number of American families who have been struggling with unsustainable budgets: a house payment that was excessive even at the best of times, the loss of income when a spouse becomes unemployed and rising health care costs.

When a budget doesn't come close to adding up, the biggest expenditure usually has to give. That has meant foreclosure for many homeowners; and it means a serious restructuring of K-12 education spending for public officials. State and local governments need immediate relief from the financial demands of public schooling, and a long-term solution to the system's profligacy.

Teacher pension plans should be based on defined contributions rather than defined benefits to alleviate growing and unsustainable commitments. Public school employees must share a substantial portion of their own health-care costs. And school district finances must be made more transparent so waste can be identified and eliminated.

Tax Credits
While these measures would lessen the immediate pain, they would do nothing to reverse the system's propensity for increasing real spending over time. Inflation-adjusted expenditures per student have more than doubled to around $12,000 over the last three decades, about 50% more than the typical private school spends. The extra resources have delivered no increase in student achievement by the end of high school.

Nine states have begun using education tax credits to encourage more private spending in lieu of government funds we simply do not have. Unlike vouchers, tax credit programs encourage individuals and businesses to invest their own funds, rather than government money, in K-12 education.

Like all private-school choice programs, these tax credits save large sums — more than $500 million a year in Pennsylvania, up to $180 million in Arizona, and potentially billions of dollars over the first five years for many states if they adopt a broad-based education tax credit program. They are also a proven way to increase academic achievement in public schools.

Citizens and businesses want to invest directly in the effort to educate the public, and we should encourage them to do so through K-12 education tax credits. Given our state and local financial outlook, we have no promising alternative.

BTW, my mother taught in the NYC system for thirty years. I'm not unsympathetic to teachers, but I despise their unions, and if those kids are so horrible, then why do the unions fight tooth and nail to prevent any imposition of discipline in classrooms? Why do they insist on wasting money on administrators, who often outnumber the teachers in many school systems?


And why wages have stagnated or declined. Save your Market worship for the true believers, Mullah.
Only a true believer would advocate socialist economics after their myriad failures.

http://www.mbo.wisc.edu/biennial/bienn1113/2010_07_09_WI%20Leg.pdf
http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf

here are a couple more links to pdf's that talk about them
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/103530269.html
and the Journal Sentinel article with them.

every other report talks about the states budget shortfalls, the only ones to claim that they don't have one is this One Wisconsin Now liberal hack group
Didn't you read Arroyo's comment? That's just "Complete Fox Limbaugh bullshit."

fettpett
02-17-2011, 06:39 PM
Didn't you read Arroyo's comment? That's just "Complete Fox Limbaugh bullshit."

yes, which is why I used Wisconsin papers for primary sources and not them. The JS is hardly conservative and even lib rags like the Wisconsin State Journal talk about the budget deficets being that high. the ONLY people saying that the budget isn't that bad is the One Wisconsin Now hack group.

Apocalypse
02-17-2011, 08:17 PM
A Report From Wisconsin

“This is already the main subject of discussion on talk radio. One hose, a former Attorney General, has put the question directly to his audience. I haven't heard so much as one person, other than a teacher, assail the Governor's position.

...

“In Wisconsin, the public has known for years that the public employee unions were out of control. They watched Gov. Doyle give them sweetheart deal after sweetheart deal. Doyle's re-election prospects were zilch because of all of the corruption. Everyone understands that the unions own the Democrats, and that they are the underlying cause of a large part of this country's governmental cost problems. The only unions that have been growing have been the public employee unions, and that only because one party has been using them as a political funding mechanism.

....

“Just as importantly, the union thugs have begun to threaten and intimidate the families and staff of the Governor and Republican Senators. Right now, there is something between very little and absolutely no sympathy for these people. They've used ‘collective bargaining’ to extort about 3 times the base wage scale in the private sector. This is why Wisconsin threw out the Democrats, en mass in November.

“This is politically driven and everyone in Wisconsin knows it. Even with the main stream media is bleating the union line, public sentiment is coming down hard on the protesters. And, now, with the Democratic legislators getting on a bus and fleeing the state, the backlash has already started.”

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=41861#

fettpett
02-17-2011, 08:41 PM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704657704576150111817428004.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-union-20110217,0,2260656,print.story

ColonialMarine0431
02-17-2011, 09:33 PM
These tactics are the same that Jonah Goldberg talked about in Liberal Fascism, chapter 5, where he drew a parallel between the Nazi student takeovers of the German Universities and the same Fascist tactics of the leftist in the 1960's in the U.S.

In short, these people are just Liberal Fascists

fettpett
02-17-2011, 10:20 PM
http://www.wistax.org/

AmPat
02-17-2011, 10:44 PM
It was a joke. Laugh or not. Regardless, move past it.

BTW, Reagan was also a Democrat at one time so what he was and what he became, are two entirely different things. Most people are like that. I, for example, was an Objectivist when I was young but I decided to put away childish things.
Laugh, chortle, snort. You still need to grow up.

Bullshit. Complete Fox Limbaugh bullshit. Use some of that so-called brain of yours to determine what the problem with the fiscal situation of the Several States is. It damn sure isn't because the person teaching kids that you wouldn't last two days with before descending into tears or rage gets a mammogram paid for every five years.

Try not to be an ignorant douche.



And why wages have stagnated or declined. Save your Market worship for the true believers, Mullah.
You're even more reprehensible than I originally thought. You might actually grow a brain soem day. Unfortunately, we may not recognize what we once called the greatest country on earth.

jediab
02-18-2011, 09:02 AM
all these "poor" teachers and their "poor" salaries

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/02/17/watch-wisconsin-part-iv-the-salary-info-big-labor-doesnt-want-you-to-see/


there are MUCH more

Based on these stats, the liberals should be more than willing to "pay their fair share".

Wei Wu Wei
02-18-2011, 11:37 AM
http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/6759/


This paper investigates whether Wisconsin public employees are overpaid at the expense of Wisconsin taxpayers. The research is timely. Newly sworn-in Gov. Scott Walker believes that public employee compensation must be cut to make it comparable to private sector pay at the state, local, and school levels. Walker is promoting public employee pay cuts, changes in collective bargaining laws, major benefits reductions, and a possible decertification of public employee unions as the antidote to the alleged overpayment of public employees in Wisconsin and the key to reducing the state’s budget deficit (Bergquist and Stein 2010).

However, the data indicates that state and local government employees in Wisconsin are not overpaid. Comparisons controlling for education, experience, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship, and disability reveal that employees of both state and local governments in Wisconsin earn less than comparable private sector employees. On an annual basis, full-time state and local government employees in Wisconsin are undercompensated by 8.2% compared with otherwise similar private sector workers. This compensation disadvantage is smaller but still significant when hours worked are factored in. Full-time public employees work fewer annual hours, particularly employees with bachelor’s, master’s, and professional degrees (because many are teachers or university professors).
When comparisons are made controlling for the difference in annual hours worked, full-time state and local government employees are undercompensated by 4.8%, compared with otherwise similar private sector workers. To summarize, our study shows that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less in total compensation per hour than comparable full-time employees in Wisconsin’s private sector.

AmPat
02-18-2011, 12:30 PM
http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/6759/


Originally Posted by Economic Policy Institute

However, the data indicates that state and local government employees in Wisconsin are not overpaid. Comparisons controlling for education, experience, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship,:eek::eek: and disability reveal that employees of both state and local governments in Wisconsin earn less than comparable private sector employees. On an annual basis, full-time state and local government employees in Wisconsin are undercompensated by 8.2% compared with otherwise similar private sector workers. This compensation disadvantage is smaller but still significant when hours worked are factored in. Full-time public employees work fewer annual hours, particularly employees with bachelor’s, master’s, and professional degrees (because many are teachers or university professors).
When comparisons are made controlling for the difference in annual hours worked, full-time state and local government employees are undercompensated by 4.8%, compared with otherwise similar private sector workers. To summarize, our study shows that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less in total compensation per hour than comparable full-time employees in Wisconsin’s private sector.
If you want to make more money, my conclusions are:
1. stop sucking down tax payer dollars and get a private sectrr job and
2. work longer hours
:cool:

ColonialMarine0431
02-18-2011, 12:50 PM
This is classic.

F-ing Union Teachers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cufj2d8Co5A

jediab
02-18-2011, 01:02 PM
If you want to make more money, my conclusions are:
1. stop sucking down tax payer dollars and get a private sectrr job and
2. work longer hours
:cool:

Just a small problem that libs dont like with your conclusions.

1. Private sector jobs usually hold you accountable for your performance
2. Longer hours? Anything over 40 is slavery!!

malloc
02-18-2011, 02:00 PM
http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/6759/

Even though your ideology is foaming at the mouth to accept this paper as gospel, Keefe has done studies on other states and those studies have been thoroughly trashed by other economists. Keefe makes several assumptions in his studies which don't hold water, and he's also made some mistakes in filtering his data correctly. I haven't taken the time to go over his Wisconsin report, but here's what stands out about his California report.


The self employed included in his study were basically hand picked. Anyone who was self employed and worked for their own LLC or corporation was included. The 1.4 million who were not incorporated, whom make considerably less compensation, like part time working, independent contractors were not included. The inclusion of this sector would have most certainly skewed the average private sector compensation downward.
The study assumes that inflation adjusted compensation increases with age. This same assumption, which is not true for all private sector employment is applied to the private sector which drives up average private sector compensation.
The study botches it's education assumptions. It assumes that employees with higher education are paid more in both the private and public sector, and it creates a normalization curve for this. However, it does not look at the type or field of degree. Does a private sector employee pay an employee more if they have higher education even if the position does not require the education the employee has? The study assumes the private sector rewards higher education more than the public sector, without addressing the basis of this assumption.
The study does not address how it corrected for private sector overtime pay for work weeks of more than 40 hours, which drives private sector compensation upward if the hours worked disparity is not corrected.


The list of rebuttals to this study goes on and on, those are just the highlights. After reading some rebuttals to his CA and IL studies it seems to me that he is publishing pro-union propaganda pieces. Your ideology probably compels you to believe otherwise. It would be wise, however, to read rebuttals and analyses after reading any politically charged study.

With all that being said, does it even matter if public employees are paid more or less than private employees? No, it doesn't matter one bit. In the private sector employees are chosen and paid based on business needs. In the public sector, employees are chosen and paid based on political will. The voters of the State of Wisconsin have expressed their will. They want the budget shortfall closed, and they want to do it without higher taxes. The taxpayers have accepted that their public servants will have to be compensated a little less lavishly in order for this to happen.

fettpett
02-19-2011, 12:20 AM
and to think, this is just the beginning of what Walker has planned. His next step (which he'll have a speech on Tuesday about) is to get the State budget under control, which will include breaking up the Milwaukee Public School system, and breaking off UW-Madison from the UW College system. should be an interesting few months in WI.

Odysseus
02-19-2011, 05:48 PM
Even though your ideology is foaming at the mouth to accept this paper as gospel, Keefe has done studies on other states and those studies have been thoroughly trashed by other economists. Keefe makes several assumptions in his studies which don't hold water, and he's also made some mistakes in filtering his data correctly. I haven't taken the time to go over his Wisconsin report, but here's what stands out about his California report.


The self employed included in his study were basically hand picked. Anyone who was self employed and worked for their own LLC or corporation was included. The 1.4 million who were not incorporated, whom make considerably less compensation, like part time working, independent contractors were not included. The inclusion of this sector would have most certainly skewed the average private sector compensation downward.
The study assumes that inflation adjusted compensation increases with age. This same assumption, which is not true for all private sector employment is applied to the private sector which drives up average private sector compensation.
The study botches it's education assumptions. It assumes that employees with higher education are paid more in both the private and public sector, and it creates a normalization curve for this. However, it does not look at the type or field of degree. Does a private sector employee pay an employee more if they have higher education even if the position does not require the education the employee has? The study assumes the private sector rewards higher education more than the public sector, without addressing the basis of this assumption.
The study does not address how it corrected for private sector overtime pay for work weeks of more than 40 hours, which drives private sector compensation upward if the hours worked disparity is not corrected.


The list of rebuttals to this study goes on and on, those are just the highlights. After reading some rebuttals to his CA and IL studies it seems to me that he is publishing pro-union propaganda pieces. Your ideology probably compels you to believe otherwise. It would be wise, however, to read rebuttals and analyses after reading any politically charged study.

With all that being said, does it even matter if public employees are paid more or less than private employees? No, it doesn't matter one bit. In the private sector employees are chosen and paid based on business needs. In the public sector, employees are chosen and paid based on political will. The voters of the State of Wisconsin have expressed their will. They want the budget shortfall closed, and they want to do it without higher taxes. The taxpayers have accepted that their public servants will have to be compensated a little less lavishly in order for this to happen.
I am shocked, shocked, I tell you, that Wei would use a biased report with slanted, cherry-picked and manipulated data to make his case. :rolleyes:

and to think, this is just the beginning of what Walker has planned. His next step (which he'll have a speech on Tuesday about) is to get the State budget under control, which will include breaking up the Milwaukee Public School system, and breaking off UW-Madison from the UW College system. should be an interesting few months in WI.
Oh, that will be fun. College faculties are a critical leftist fiefdom. Breaking their hold on that in any way would drive a stake through the heart of communist agitation in the state. Expect London-style riots if that happens.

fettpett
02-19-2011, 10:01 PM
I am shocked, shocked, I tell you, that Wei would use a biased report with slanted, cherry-picked and manipulated data to make his case. :rolleyes:

Oh, that will be fun. College faculties are a critical leftist fiefdom. Breaking their hold on that in any way would drive a stake through the heart of communist agitation in the state. Expect London-style riots if that happens.

honestly, Walker needs to take this one step further and decertify the public Union's and then completely ban them from forming again

CueSi
02-19-2011, 10:08 PM
honestly, Walker needs to take this one step further and decertify the public Union's and then completely ban them from forming again

I just got moist for your Governor, and I'm not at work.

~QC

fettpett
02-19-2011, 10:23 PM
I just got moist for your Governor, and I'm not at work.

~QC

I wish he was my Governor, I have Synder who is making his own moves against Michigan debt and against the Public Union's here.

Odysseus
02-20-2011, 12:20 AM
I just got moist for your Governor, and I'm not at work.

~QC
Uh, ... Okay, that's more information than I needed.

I wish he was my Governor, I have Synder who is making his own moves against Michigan debt and against the Public Union's here.
Right now, I've got Perry, who is about 50/50 on issues. He's definitely got a bit of RINO mixed in with his pachyderm DNA.

BTW, any sightings of the Democrats who bolted from the state?

http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/021911.jpg

fettpett
02-20-2011, 10:14 AM
Uh, ... Okay, that's more information than I needed.

Right now, I've got Perry, who is about 50/50 on issues. He's definitely got a bit of RINO mixed in with his pachyderm DNA.

BTW, any sightings of the Democrats who bolted from the state?

http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/021911.jpg

HAHAHAHAHA!! nice.


One of the Reps from Texas told these Dems to get their spouse to them every couple of weeks for "emergancy sex"

my first thought on that was, WTF she doesn't think they can keep their little union members in their pants? They are around Chicago...hookers are cheap there.

Odysseus
02-20-2011, 11:28 AM
HAHAHAHAHA!! nice.


One of the Reps from Texas told these Dems to get their spouse to them every couple of weeks for "emergancy sex"

my first thought on that was, WTF she doesn't think they can keep their little union members in their pants? They are around Chicago...hookers are cheap there.

Well, this is the party of Clinton. :D

Deliberately evading a quorum this way has got to be illegal. Unfortunately, they are outside the jurisdiction of the governor, so he can't send state troopers after them. Maybe an extradition request? There's got to be some legal means of forcing them back to the state.

fettpett
02-20-2011, 03:34 PM
Well, this is the party of Clinton. :D

Deliberately evading a quorum this way has got to be illegal. Unfortunately, they are outside the jurisdiction of the governor, so he can't send state troopers after them. Maybe an extradition request? There's got to be some legal means of forcing them back to the state.

It is illegal, just as the protesting/strike is, It's against the WI Constitution (article 4, section 7) for them not to form a quorum when the session is called

Odysseus
02-20-2011, 07:56 PM
It is illegal, just as the protesting/strike is, It's against the WI Constitution (article 4, section 7) for them not to form a quorum when the session is called

Thanks for the information. Here is the relevant passage:


Organization of legislature; quorum; compulsory attendance. SECTION 7.
Each house shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members; and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business, but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may compel the attendance of absent members in such manner and under such penalties as each house may provide.

I particularly like this part: a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may compel the attendance of absent members in such manner and under such penalties as each house may provide.

Section 8 offers more interesting provisions:


Rules; contempts; expulsion. SECTION 8.
Each house may determine the rules of its own proceedings, punish for contempt and disorderly behavior, and with the concurrence of two−thirds of all the members elected, expel a member; but no member shall be expelled a second time for the same cause.
Courts have no jurisdiction to review legislative rules of proceeding, which are those rules having “to do with the process the legislature uses to propose or pass legislation or how it determines the qualifications of its members.” Milwaukee Journal Sentinel v. DOA, 2009 WI 79, 319 Wis. 2d 439, 768 N.W.2d 700, 07−1160.
The legislature cannot sentence a person to confinement for contempt without notice and without giving an opportunity to respond to the charge. Groppi v. Leslie, 404 U.S. 496.

So, SECTION 7 allows a smaller number of legislators to compel attendance of absent members under penalty, and SECTION 8 allows confinement for contempt after notice and an opportunity to answer the charge. I'd say that the obvious move is to cite the missing members for contempt, send state troopers across the border to serve the summons and give a specific date for them to appear and answer the charges. If they don't, then when they do get back, they get jail time and fines, which must be paid out of pocket, and not by union or PAC contributions.

djones520
02-20-2011, 08:05 PM
Biggest problem with that Ody, is that you need 2/3rds of the Legistlature present to do so. With all the Dems in Illinois, I don't think they have enough.

Odysseus
02-21-2011, 12:18 AM
Biggest problem with that Ody, is that you need 2/3rds of the Legistlature present to do so. With all the Dems in Illinois, I don't think they have enough.

I'm not sure about that. The constitution simply states that a smaller number may compel attendance. That might be less than 2/3. Besides, Article V SECTION 4 has something to say on that:

Powers and duties. SECTION 4. The governor shall be commander in chief of the military and naval forces of the state. He shall have power to convene the legislature on extraordinary occasions, and in case of invasion, or danger from the prevalence of contagious disease at the seat of government, he may convene them at any other suitable place within the state. He shall communicate to the legislature, at every session, the condition of the state, and recommend such matters to them for their consideration as he may deem expedient. He shall transact all necessary business with the officers of the government, civil and military. He shall expedite all such measures as may be resolved upon by the legislature, and shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed.

If the governor has the power to convene the legislature, and the members fail to show, then they are in violation of the state constitution. There has to be a remedy for that.

PoliCon
02-21-2011, 12:59 AM
yeah, Vickie McKenna, She's a very straight up Conservative in WI talk radio, she's gone so far as to walk around with her gun on her hip as her WI Constitutional right gives her, cops told her to put it away.

She's started the slogan "Shut up and Teach" that the counter protesters are starting to use

Someone should take pictures of these protesters with date and time stamps - and post as webpage where people can id them and then share the link with their employers. :) If they're skipping work claiming to be sick . . . well now . . . reason for dismissal.

AmPat
02-21-2011, 11:11 AM
Well, this is the party of Clinton. :D

Deliberately evading a quorum this way has got to be illegal. Unfortunately, they are outside the jurisdiction of the governor, so he can't send state troopers after them. Maybe an extradition request? There's got to be some legal means of forcing them back to the state.

Put a bounty on them and send in the Dog.