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Gingersnap
02-23-2011, 11:04 AM
Anger at God common, even among atheists

If you're angry at your doctor, your boss, your relative or your spouse, you can probably sit down and have a productive conversation about it. God, on the other hand, is probably not available to chat.

And yet people get angry at God all the time, especially about everyday disappointments, finds a new set of studies in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.

It's not just religious folks, either. People unaffiliated with organized religion, atheists and agnostics also report anger toward God either in the past, or anger focused on a hypothetical image - that is, what they imagined God might be like - said lead study author Julie Exline, Case Western Reserve University psychologist.

In studies on college students, atheists and agnostics reported more anger at God during their lifetimes than believers. A separate study also found this pattern among bereaved individuals. This phenomenon is something Exline and colleagues will explore more in future research, which is open to more participants.

It seems that more religious people are less likely to feel angry at God and more likely to see his intentions as well-meaning, Exline's research found.

And younger people tend to be angrier at God than older people, Exline said. She says some of the reasons she's seen people the angriest at God include rejection from preferred colleges and sports injuries preventing high schoolers from competing.

The age difference may have to do with cultural norms, she said. Perhaps previous generations were taught to not question God, whereas younger people today don't have any qualms about it. On the other hand, it might be that as people get older, they learn how to handle these types of feelings better.

LOL! You let your fake non-belief of my sky god ruin your own day. Does it get any dumber than that? :p

CNN (http://pagingdrgupta.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/01/anger-at-god-common-even-among-atheists/)

megimoo
02-23-2011, 11:47 AM
LOL! You let your fake non-belief of my sky god ruin your own day. Does it get any dumber than that? :p

CNN (http://pagingdrgupta.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/01/anger-at-god-common-even-among-atheists/)Interlectual Atheism: Establishes the bona fides of the Modern Thinking Man !

wilbur
02-23-2011, 11:57 AM
I say or think "God damn it!" probably at least a few times a day - does that count as "being angry with God"??

Wei Wu Wei
02-23-2011, 12:21 PM
That's because most people are intellectual babies who think of God as the sunday-school version of a Big Person In Heaven with traits that people have.

Novaheart
02-23-2011, 12:25 PM
LOL! You let your fake non-belief of my sky god ruin your own day. Does it get any dumber than that? :p

CNN (http://pagingdrgupta.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/01/anger-at-god-common-even-among-atheists/)

You can be an atheist and still have been raised in your culture. I was raised in a Christian culture, so my cultural context for natural forces is going to be the Christian vision of Zeus, which we call God. And just as my primitive ancestors brought about the expression "act of God" I am going to see a hurricane as a tremendous and moving natural force, an "angry" sea, rays of light through an angry sky that remind me of the movies Greatest Story Ever Told or The Ten Commandments.

Novaheart
02-23-2011, 12:28 PM
That's because most people are intellectual babies who think of God as the sunday-school version of a Big Person In Heaven with traits that people have.

I'm often surprised at the low opinion of God that those who believe in God demonstrate. They think this is this omnipotent being, creator of the universe, and he's a petty, angry, murderer?

megimoo
02-23-2011, 12:31 PM
I say or think "God damn it!" probably at least a few times a day - does that count as "being angry with God"??
Well, if you feel that he doesn't exist that would make you Very foolish; crazy for invoking a nonentity as your gourd ?

Novaheart
02-23-2011, 12:41 PM
Well, if you feel that he doesn't exist that would make you Very foolish; crazy for invoking a nonentity as your gourd ?

When a mother says something stupid like "God was watching out for my child." or "I know her grandmother was helping from above." oblivious to the fact that ten other people died in the train crash, does she think that God wasn't watching over the ten other people or that her mother flew around playing angel only for her own grandchild?

To quote Bill Maher - It's childish. However, it is culturally ingrained. It's a context, a metaphor for understanding as Joseph Campbell explained.

Wei Wu Wei
02-23-2011, 12:49 PM
Well, if you feel that he doesn't exist that would make you Very foolish; crazy for invoking a nonentity as your gourd ?

i invoke dieties all the time for exclamations

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhG3fekoqnc

Apache
02-23-2011, 12:51 PM
I'm often surprised at the low opinion of God that those who believe in God demonstrate. They think this is this omnipotent being, creator of the universe, and he's a petty, angry, murderer?

I' often surprised that people who have no relationship with God ,seem to know nothing of which they speak...

Starbuck
02-23-2011, 01:05 PM
When a mother says something stupid like "God was watching out for my child." or "I know her grandmother was helping from above." oblivious to the fact that ten other people died in the train crash, does she think that God wasn't watching over the ten other people or that her mother flew around playing angel only for her own grandchild? ........

Nice point. Carrying it along, what about the endless chain of well-meaning people who say, with regard to their personal good fortune, "The Lord's been good to me". That particular phrase always rings in my ears, and I find myself asking why God would have singled out any one individual for heavenly blessing? The only possible answer is that God rewarded this particular individual for his piousness and loyalty. A bit silly, it seems to me.

An interesting slant on this subject was presented in the movie and book, "The Bridge Of San Luis Rey". In this story a group of travelers, all strangers to each other, is crossing a bridge when it collapses. A priest takes it upon himself to determine whether the victims could have been singled out by God for death at that time as some sort of punishment, or whether they were simply victims. His answer cost him his life. Questioning, in the 16th century, was not allowed.

Every Sunday during the Fall I become more and more convinced that without the personal intervention of God, no touchdowns at all would be scored by running backs. Presumably, all scores would then be 0 - 0 without this divine assistance.:D

Gingersnap
02-23-2011, 01:12 PM
You can be an atheist and still have been raised in your culture. I was raised in a Christian culture, so my cultural context for natural forces is going to be the Christian vision of Zeus, which we call God. And just as my primitive ancestors brought about the expression "act of God" I am going to see a hurricane as a tremendous and moving natural force, an "angry" sea, rays of light through an angry sky that remind me of the movies Greatest Story Ever Told or The Ten Commandments.

I'm from the same culture and believe me when I say that I don't see athletic injuries, college application rejections, or natural phenomena as being "God's fault". I don't see those things as being much affected by God at all in the normal course of events and I'm a believer.

I don't believe in fate or luck although millions of people in our shared culture do. I sure don't waste any time bemoaning the fate or luck I don't believe in when negative things happen to me. :rolleyes:

FBIGuy
02-23-2011, 01:27 PM
LOL! You let your fake non-belief of my sky god ruin your own day. Does it get any dumber than that? :p

CNN (http://pagingdrgupta.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/01/anger-at-god-common-even-among-atheists/)

I personally get teed off at Scooby-Doo fairly frequently. It makes more since that getting made at a mythical being I can't see.

megimoo
02-23-2011, 01:30 PM
i invoke dieties all the time for exclamations

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhG3fekoqncI rest my case !

Odysseus
02-23-2011, 01:32 PM
That's because most people are intellectual babies who think of God as the sunday-school version of a Big Person In Heaven with traits that people have.
While intellectual adults think of Marx that way? :rolleyes:

Novaheart
02-23-2011, 01:38 PM
I'm from the same culture and believe me when I say that I don't see athletic injuries, college application rejections, or natural phenomena as being "God's fault". I don't see those things as being much affected by God at all in the normal course of events and I'm a believer.

I don't believe in fate or luck although millions of people in our shared culture do. I sure don't waste any time bemoaning the fate or luck I don't believe in when negative things happen to me. :rolleyes:

Buddhism is much harder on you in this regard. While not decided by a god, ones actions are believed to be naturally involved in the outcome. So it generates both superstition and the understanding of the ridiculousness of superstition... particularly when it comes to playing the lottery. This is when Jewish philosophy comes in handy: if you want to know what God thinks of money- look at who he gives it to.

AmPat
02-23-2011, 01:45 PM
I say or think "God damn it!" probably at least a few times a day - does that count as "being angry with God"??

God doesn't believe in you.

Wei Wu Wei
02-23-2011, 01:50 PM
While intellectual adults think of Marx that way? :rolleyes:

lol no

Odysseus
02-23-2011, 01:55 PM
lol no

Hmmmm... Then how do you explain repeatedly bowing before the altar of socialism after its repeated failures, if not as an act of faith, devoid of reason?

FBIGuy
02-23-2011, 02:45 PM
Hmmmm... Then how do you explain repeatedly bowing before the altar of socialism after its repeated failures, if not as an act of faith, devoid of reason?

Einstein would call it insanity.

Wei Wu Wei
02-23-2011, 02:48 PM
Atheism is weaker today than ever. The image of atheism masks an even stronger belief.

I use a joke to illustrate: A man is in a psychiatric hospital because he suffers from delusions that he is not a man, but rather a grain of seed. After some time of treatment, he is cured from his delusions and allowed to leave. Shortly after leaving the hospital the man returns in utter fear. He says he could not leave the grounds because he saw a chicken on the road and was afraid of being eaten. His doctor tells him "but why are you afraid? you know very well that you are not a grain of seed, you know that you are a man!", to which to man replies: "Yes I know very well than I am not a grain of seed, but does the chicken know that?"



The vast majority of today's atheists fall into a similar trap, they believe God does not exist, but they are afraid that He does not know it. They unconsciously invoke God every time they speak.

djones520
02-23-2011, 02:52 PM
Nice point. Carrying it along, what about the endless chain of well-meaning people who say, with regard to their personal good fortune, "The Lord's been good to me". That particular phrase always rings in my ears, and I find myself asking why God would have singled out any one individual for heavenly blessing? The only possible answer is that God rewarded this particular individual for his piousness and loyalty. A bit silly, it seems to me.

An interesting slant on this subject was presented in the movie and book, "The Bridge Of San Luis Rey". In this story a group of travelers, all strangers to each other, is crossing a bridge when it collapses. A priest takes it upon himself to determine whether the victims could have been singled out by God for death at that time as some sort of punishment, or whether they were simply victims. His answer cost him his life. Questioning, in the 16th century, was not allowed.

Every Sunday during the Fall I become more and more convinced that without the personal intervention of God, no touchdowns at all would be scored by running backs. Presumably, all scores would then be 0 - 0 without this divine assistance.:D

On such a topic, I saw a sign that someone posted infront of their house. Said "All Glory Be to God". Made me curious, how the omnipotent creater of the universe needed more glory? Why could man not have some of his own?

Not trying to hate here, I just find some of the sayings a bit odd.

Wei Wu Wei
02-23-2011, 02:54 PM
Hmmmm... Then how do you explain repeatedly bowing before the altar of socialism after its repeated failures, if not as an act of faith, devoid of reason?

A further developed understanding of the process of history. Also I never advocated a repeat of 20th century socialist experiments like the Soviet Union. I make this exact same point every time socialism is discussed, and you continue to try to force my words into your own framework of understanding, which is based on presuppositions that I do not accept.

An example: No person can ever find total satisfaction. This is just a fact, there is always something missing, always something not there, always something that prevents you from being totally 100% satisfied. Of course this is precisely what moves us forward day after day, our incompleteness drives us forward forever towards completeness, even if we know damn well we will never be there.

You should know that you will never be totally 100% happy, content, satisified, or whatever, but does that mean you reject the notion of moving in that direction? Of course not. You still try to make the best meal when you cook, you still try to do the best job you can when you work, you still try to be happier even though total happiness will not happen.

All there is in life is failures, repeated over and over.

Gingersnap
02-23-2011, 02:57 PM
Let's try to stay with the pointless-anger-in-something-you-don't-believe-in angle. ;)

Wei Wu Wei
02-23-2011, 02:59 PM
lol atheists are mad at God? hahah that doesn't make sense they don't even believe in him


There are several atheist organizations around who meet regularly, what a pointless idea! what do they do? "okay for the first order of business, we will vote on whether God exists - we decide unanimously that God does not exist! okay see you guys next week!"

djones520
02-23-2011, 03:00 PM
Let's try to stay with the pointless-anger-in-something-you-don't-believe-in angle. ;)

Whose angry at what now? I'm not angry.

wilbur
02-23-2011, 04:29 PM
Atheism is weaker today than ever. The image of atheism masks an even stronger belief.

By what measure can atheism be called "weaker than ever"?

In terms of numbers, there are more atheists today than ever.

In therms of serious robust arguments in favor of atheism (or against theism), things have never been better.

Novaheart
02-23-2011, 04:34 PM
Let's try to stay with the pointless-anger-in-something-you-don't-believe-in angle. ;)

OK, but God as a metaphor allows that one not believe in Zeus/God and yet Zeus/God is a metaphor for what he does believe in which is nature. While it's irrational perhaps to curse natural forces, we do it all the time when we drop something on our foot or stub our toe.

Wrapping things in God is a habit. We could just as easily wrap stuff in ancestor worship or mischievous little people.

noonwitch
02-23-2011, 04:37 PM
When a mother says something stupid like "God was watching out for my child." or "I know her grandmother was helping from above." oblivious to the fact that ten other people died in the train crash, does she think that God wasn't watching over the ten other people or that her mother flew around playing angel only for her own grandchild?

To quote Bill Maher - It's childish. However, it is culturally ingrained. It's a context, a metaphor for understanding as Joseph Campbell explained.



It's childish to think that God watched out for the one person on the train and not the rest, I totally agree with you on that point. It's childishly comforting, though, in a situation that defies logic like that one does.

I know people who swear up and down that God protected them in a dangerous situation. I don't know about that-is that little voice you hear warning you the voice of God? It kind of sounds like my mom's voice, personally.

I do know God can provide comfort through His presence to those who are suffering.

Novaheart
02-23-2011, 04:51 PM
It's childish to think that God watched out for the one person on the train and not the rest, I totally agree with you on that point. It's childishly comforting, though, in a situation that defies logic like that one does.

I know people who swear up and down that God protected them in a dangerous situation. I don't know about that-is that little voice you hear warning you the voice of God? It kind of sounds like my mom's voice, personally.

I do know God can provide comfort through His presence to those who are suffering.

There are unquestionably benefits to mental discipline. Whether you calm your brain by "turning it over to God" or by processing it, ultimately you are processing the distressing situation. Screaming "God help me." clears the chatter in your brain. Deliberately clearing the chatter in your brain works too. God training is an excellent tool for dealing with that which is beyond your control, but unfortunately a lot of people wrap it up in guilt tripping and fear. Get rid of the angry desert god crap in the major religions and a lot of human suffering goes away.

lacarnut
02-23-2011, 05:38 PM
An example: No person can ever find total satisfaction. This is just a fact, there is always something missing, always something not there, always something that prevents you from being totally 100% satisfied. Of course this is precisely what moves us forward day after day, our incompleteness drives us forward forever towards completeness, even if we know damn well we will never be there.

You should know that you will never be totally 100% happy, content, satisified, or whatever, but does that mean you reject the notion of moving in that direction? Of course not. You still try to make the best meal when you cook, you still try to do the best job you can when you work, you still try to be happier even though total happiness will not happen.

All there is in life is failures, repeated over and over.

For a liberal like you, the glass is always 1/2 empty instead of 1/2 full. I pitty people like you who have a negative view of life. You remind me of the actor Anthony Quinn when asked if he was happy. His answer was "I do not know what happiness is."


I am 99% happy, content and enjoy life. In other words, as close as you can get to perfection. I don't strive for perfection as it can not be achieved in this world. I do see things thru rose colored glasses though. If I had my a hand or leg cut off, I would be thankful that both were not cut off. I see people that do not have a home to live in or food to eat, and I thank God that I am better off them. It is selfish to think of only yourself. Helping others (not the government) will make you a better person, and in my opinion you will be blessed.

Gingersnap
02-23-2011, 05:39 PM
OK, but God as a metaphor allows that one not believe in Zeus/God and yet Zeus/God is a metaphor for what he does believe in which is nature. While it's irrational perhaps to curse natural forces, we do it all the time when we drop something on our foot or stub our toe.

Wrapping things in God is a habit. We could just as easily wrap stuff in ancestor worship or mischievous little people.

The article isn't about reflexive cursing (which is a cultural artifact). It's about self-identified atheists who are angry at God for being rejected by colleges or suffering some kind of medical mishap.

About a year ago yet another poll turned up the fact that a substantial subset of self-identified atheists also believed in God, angels, devils, and other supernatural, decidedly theological entities.

Odysseus
02-23-2011, 06:16 PM
A further developed understanding of the process of history. Also I never advocated a repeat of 20th century socialist experiments like the Soviet Union. I make this exact same point every time socialism is discussed, and you continue to try to force my words into your own framework of understanding, which is based on presuppositions that I do not accept.

An example: No person can ever find total satisfaction. This is just a fact, there is always something missing, always something not there, always something that prevents you from being totally 100% satisfied. Of course this is precisely what moves us forward day after day, our incompleteness drives us forward forever towards completeness, even if we know damn well we will never be there.

You should know that you will never be totally 100% happy, content, satisified, or whatever, but does that mean you reject the notion of moving in that direction? Of course not. You still try to make the best meal when you cook, you still try to do the best job you can when you work, you still try to be happier even though total happiness will not happen.

All there is in life is failures, repeated over and over.
ROFLOL! You mean to say that because perfection is impossible, that nothing ever succeeds, so we might as well embrace the failures that have destroyed tens of millions of lives and blighted billions more? That's insanely stupid, even for you.

Communism moves people away from prosperity, not towards it. It moves people away from plenty, away from self-sufficiency, away from, well, life.

Let's try to stay with the pointless-anger-in-something-you-don't-believe-in angle. ;)
In Wei's case, that would be capitalism.

MrsSmith
02-23-2011, 08:23 PM
There are unquestionably benefits to mental discipline. Whether you calm your brain by "turning it over to God" or by processing it, ultimately you are processing the distressing situation. Screaming "God help me." clears the chatter in your brain. Deliberately clearing the chatter in your brain works too. God training is an excellent tool for dealing with that which is beyond your control, but unfortunately a lot of people wrap it up in guilt tripping and fear. Get rid of the angry desert god crap in the major religions and a lot of human suffering goes away.

That's easily done, since your perception of "an angry desert god" has nothing to do with God. You're right about crying out to God in a horrible situation...it's far smarter than crying out to a bowel movement the way so many people do...

Novaheart
02-23-2011, 08:48 PM
The article isn't about reflexive cursing (which is a cultural artifact). It's about self-identified atheists who are angry at God for being rejected by colleges or suffering some kind of medical mishap.

About a year ago yet another poll turned up the fact that a substantial subset of self-identified atheists also believed in God, angels, devils, and other supernatural, decidedly theological entities.

The worst ones are the ones who have sworn off Asian religions , but who have switched to "traditional" belief systems native to our ethnicity. God is bullshit, but wood nymphs and faeries aren't.

NJCardFan
02-23-2011, 09:02 PM
The worst ones are the ones who have sworn off Asian religions , but who have switched to "traditional" belief systems native to our ethnicity. God is bullshit, but wood nymphs and faeries aren't.

You know, the day is going to come when you are going to be judged by the things you say and the one unforgivable sin is blasphemy. Just wanted you to know that.

Wei Wu Wei
02-23-2011, 09:28 PM
I am 99% happy, content and enjoy life. In other words, as close as you can get to perfection. I don't strive for perfection as it can not be achieved in this world. I do see things thru rose colored glasses though. If I had my a hand or leg cut off, I would be thankful that both were not cut off. I see people that do not have a home to live in or food to eat, and I thank God that I am better off them. It is selfish to think of only yourself. Helping others (not the government) will make you a better person, and in my opinion you will be blessed.

I agree with just about all of this.

Wei Wu Wei
02-23-2011, 09:42 PM
ROFLOL! You mean to say that because perfection is impossible, that nothing ever succeeds, so we might as well embrace the failures that have destroyed tens of millions of lives and blighted billions more? That's insanely stupid, even for you.

Communism moves people away from prosperity, not towards it. It moves people away from plenty, away from self-sufficiency, away from, well, life.

In Wei's case, that would be capitalism.

Trust me, I am more than thrilled to have a real honest discussion about the contemporary situation, the limits of capitalism and how I see communism. However I've been here long enough to know what you are doing.

I'm happy to concede being wrong about plenty of things, and I'm happy to admit that i'm ignorant of plenty of things if we are going to have a real discussion between adults. However, I'm not interested purely in having a dick-measuring contest on the internet. I'm not trying to pwn anyone or "win" any argument, you'll know damn well when I'm trying to do that.

I know that you disagree with me, but I don't think you view me as an idiot. I disagree with you, but I try to speak to you like someone who is intelligent. If what you want to do is just flex your guns and pwn me on the internet, by all means start a thread in the dome, but it does nothing for either of us for you to sit there and tell me what I believe and argue against that strawman. It does nothing for either of us when you blatantly ignore everything I post and then post as if you know what I think. You don't have to agree with what I post, you may have different interpretations, but you cannot just pretend it didn't happen. In maybe a dozen threads I've already explained my opinions about 20th century communist projects, the Soviet Union, Stalin and Mao. I've said plenty of times that the soviet union was a failure, and the communism I refer to is not the state ideology or party titles of these nations, but rather the longer process of history with which the failures of the past are a part of.

I would love to take discussion on this board to another level and explain myself to people who understand, even if they disagree with me, but when you post in this arrogant way it's about as effective as a liberal asking loaded questions like "why exactly are all Tea Partiers racist?" - the intention obviously isn't to discuss anything, but to act childish.

I know I'm quoting Ody the Slowdy here, but this applies to many posters on this board.

Adam Wood
02-24-2011, 07:29 AM
That's easily done, since your perception of "an angry desert god" has nothing to do with God. You're right about crying out to God in a horrible situation...it's far smarter than crying out to a bowel movement the way so many people do...

Heh!

Novaheart
02-24-2011, 08:50 AM
You know, the day is going to come when you are going to be judged by the things you say and the one unforgivable sin is blasphemy. Just wanted you to know that.

You worry about your Asian gods, I'm an American.

Odysseus
02-24-2011, 10:26 AM
Trust me, I am more than thrilled to have a real honest discussion about the contemporary situation, the limits of capitalism and how I see communism. However I've been here long enough to know what you are doing.

I'm happy to concede being wrong about plenty of things, and I'm happy to admit that i'm ignorant of plenty of things if we are going to have a real discussion between adults. However, I'm not interested purely in having a dick-measuring contest on the internet. I'm not trying to pwn anyone or "win" any argument, you'll know damn well when I'm trying to do that.

I know that you disagree with me, but I don't think you view me as an idiot. I disagree with you, but I try to speak to you like someone who is intelligent. If what you want to do is just flex your guns and pwn me on the internet, by all means start a thread in the dome, but it does nothing for either of us for you to sit there and tell me what I believe and argue against that strawman. It does nothing for either of us when you blatantly ignore everything I post and then post as if you know what I think. You don't have to agree with what I post, you may have different interpretations, but you cannot just pretend it didn't happen. In maybe a dozen threads I've already explained my opinions about 20th century communist projects, the Soviet Union, Stalin and Mao. I've said plenty of times that the soviet union was a failure, and the communism I refer to is not the state ideology or party titles of these nations, but rather the longer process of history with which the failures of the past are a part of.

I would love to take discussion on this board to another level and explain myself to people who understand, even if they disagree with me, but when you post in this arrogant way it's about as effective as a liberal asking loaded questions like "why exactly are all Tea Partiers racist?" - the intention obviously isn't to discuss anything, but to act childish.

I know I'm quoting Ody the Slowdy here, but this applies to many posters on this board.

And yet, whenever I start a thread about the nature of communism, socialism or whatever -ism you're calling it this week, you throw in a few snarky posts and then run like a scalded dog. I guess the thrill doesn't last that loing.

I don't consider you an idiot, I consider you an enabler of evil, no different from a neo-Nazi or other shill for totalitarian tyranny. You talk about how you didn't support the 20th century communist projects (although we only have your word for it; I have no doubt that you were as staunch a supporter of the party line then as you are now), but if so, then you didn't learn a damned thing from them, and you keep making excuses for the regimes that continue to follow their example, such as Cuba, North Korea and even Belarus. You defend people who walk around in Che t-shirts (another example of 20th century communist mass murder) and then pretend that we're just as bad in order to justify their moral blindness. Even now, you support Islamist movements that would be anathema to you if they weren't virulently anti-American.

This isn't about pning you, or some other idiotic internet game, this is about me watching the world go to hell in a handbasket thanks to people just like you, and getting fed up with your attitude. This is about me getting sick of having to defend the country from external enemies while you cheer them on. I don't expect to change your mind, but I'm still going to take what you believe and rub your nose in it, in the hope that, like an incontinent puppy, you can actually learn something from your mistakes and the mistakes of your predecessors or, failing that, that the destructive idiocy that you espouse everywhere that you post is exposed for what it is.

wilbur
02-24-2011, 11:03 AM
That's easily done, since your perception of "an angry desert god" has nothing to do with God. You're right about crying out to God in a horrible situation...it's far smarter than crying out to a bowel movement the way so many people do...

You're right!

He should have said "wrathful, jealous, and vengeful desert God" instead.

MrsSmith
02-24-2011, 08:31 PM
You're right!

He should have said "wrathful, jealous, and vengeful desert God" instead.

He could have said that. It still wouldn't make it true.

wilbur
02-24-2011, 09:04 PM
He could have said that. It still wouldn't make it true.

So you object to the word "desert"?

Gingersnap
02-24-2011, 09:12 PM
So you object to the word "desert"?

She probably objects to your failure to understand the New Covenant.

MrsSmith
02-24-2011, 09:15 PM
So you object to the word "desert"?

Same old. I object to completely incorrect statements made in total ignorance. People with absolutely no knowledge about a subject should learn before they talk.

But you already know that. I'm sure Novaheart appreciates your defense of his false statement, though.

wilbur
02-24-2011, 11:17 PM
She probably objects to your failure to understand the New Covenant.

I understand it - the concept of the "new covenant" is just completely ad hoc and, quite frankly, silly. Not to mention, it doesnt simply negate the events of the OT.

And for starters, perfect beings get covenants right the first time.

Rockntractor
02-24-2011, 11:22 PM
And for starters, perfect beings get covenants right the first time.

It was planned from the beginning and after the end.

Gingersnap
02-24-2011, 11:25 PM
I understand it - the concept of the "new covenant" is just completely ad hoc and, quite frankly, silly. Not to mention, it doesnt simply negate the events of the OT.

And for starters, perfect beings get covenants right the first time.

If only perfect beings had been involved on both sides. Sadly, a covenant requires at least two sides.

Aside from all that, why aren't you more distressed about people involved in New Age religions, paganism, or various alternative belief systems? The danger today is not Focus on the Family in your bedroom but the American government in your phone calls, Internet, sports equipment, vaginas, cars, and food.

That sounds more alarming to me.

MrsSmith
02-25-2011, 06:19 AM
I understand it - the concept of the "new covenant" is just completely ad hoc and, quite frankly, silly. Not to mention, it doesnt simply negate the events of the OT.

And for starters, perfect beings get covenants right the first time.

And you are aware that the New Covenant an extension of the first, original Abrahamic Covenant, right? That the terms and conditions began in Genesis? Complaining because God adjusts things to allow more humans in instead of less of us imperfect beings is really silly. But of course, having never yet taken the time to gain an education in this subject, you continue to blather nonsense. :rolleyes:

NJCardFan
02-25-2011, 10:58 AM
I find this whole thing comical. Atheists blaming God for their shortcomings would be like me blaming Santa Clause for me not getting a Rolls Royce for Christmas.

Odysseus
02-25-2011, 01:14 PM
And for starters, perfect beings get covenants right the first time.

Speaking from personal experience, are you?

The Night Owl
02-25-2011, 07:47 PM
On such a topic, I saw a sign that someone posted infront of their house. Said "All Glory Be to God". Made me curious, how the omnipotent creater of the universe needed more glory? Why could man not have some of his own?

Not trying to hate here, I just find some of the sayings a bit odd.

The idea is that everything is part of God's design and therefore only God deserves glory for what goes on. The irony of it is that God is a human creation.

AmPat
02-25-2011, 08:07 PM
The idea is that everything is part of God's design and therefore only God deserves glory for what goes on. The irony of it is that God is a human creation.

:rolleyes:Thus saith the almighty TNO.:rolleyes:

Calypso Jones
02-25-2011, 08:28 PM
Let Atheists have their say. In the end times there will be no more atheism. They will be in open and aggressive opposition to God.

The Night Owl
02-26-2011, 11:56 AM
Let Atheists have their say. In the end times there will be no more atheism. They will be in open and aggressive opposition to God.

Close. Atheists (at least some of us) are in open and aggressive opposition to the idea of God. :D

Novaheart
02-26-2011, 12:12 PM
Close. Atheists (at least some of us) are in open and aggressive opposition to the idea of God. :D

I describe myself as a nontheist.

Rockntractor
02-26-2011, 12:39 PM
The idea is that everything is part of God's design and therefore only God deserves glory for what goes on. The irony of it is that God is a human creation.

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/orly.jpg

MrsSmith
02-26-2011, 05:09 PM
The idea is that everything is part of God's design and therefore only God deserves glory for what goes on. The irony of it is that God is a human creation.
Now, that is one funny statement. ROFL!! :D:D:D

lacarnut
02-26-2011, 07:37 PM
Now, that is one funny statement. ROFL!! :D:D:D

N.O. is a legend in his own mind.

wilbur
02-26-2011, 11:29 PM
And you are aware that the New Covenant an extension of the first, original Abrahamic Covenant, right? That the terms and conditions began in Genesis?

Actually, my real purpose was to point out that Yahweh is self-described as "vengeful", "wrathful", and "jealous". And he is - this is not debatable. If one calls Yahweh any of those things, one is only using words he used to describe himself, if one takes the Bible as his word.


Complaining because God adjusts things to allow more humans in instead of less of us imperfect beings is really silly.

I'm not "complaining" about what God did or didn't do... that would be a little like being angry with a God that doesn't exist, like the poor hapless atheists who are the topic of this thread. I'm pointing out that the attempted harmonizations between the Old Covenant and New Covenant are ad hoc explanations to mask obvious inconsistencies (and failed prophecies)... and that the whole thing is seriously at odds with perfect being theology - perfect beings with omni-max capabilities can anticipate literally everything it is possible to anticipate - including when and how the principles in his contracts will fail. So it would be a little surprising for such a being to need any addendum's to any of their agreements.

Rockntractor
02-26-2011, 11:45 PM
Actually, my real purpose was to point out that Yahweh is self-described as "vengeful", "wrathful", and "jealous". And he is - this is not debatable. If one calls Yahweh any of those things, one is only using words he used to describe himself, if one takes the Bible as his word.



I'm not "complaining" about what God did or didn't do... that would be a little like being angry with a God that doesn't exist, like the poor hapless atheists who are the topic of this thread. I'm pointing out that the attempted harmonizations between the Old Covenant and New Covenant are ad hoc explanations to mask obvious inconsistencies (and failed prophecies)... and that the whole thing is seriously at odds with perfect being theology - perfect beings with omni-max capabilities can anticipate literally everything it is possible to anticipate - including when and how the principles in his contracts will fail. So it would be a little surprising for such a being to need any addendum's to any of their agreements.

Nice sig line Wilbur, here is an out of context quote from you, the first in a series.

killing a born child is not as morally reprehensible as killing an fully self-aware adult

MrsSmith
02-27-2011, 08:40 AM
Actually, my real purpose was to point out that Yahweh is self-described as "vengeful", "wrathful", and "jealous". And he is - this is not debatable. If one calls Yahweh any of those things, one is only using words he used to describe himself, if one takes the Bible as his word.



I'm not "complaining" about what God did or didn't do... that would be a little like being angry with a God that doesn't exist, like the poor hapless atheists who are the topic of this thread. I'm pointing out that the attempted harmonizations between the Old Covenant and New Covenant are ad hoc explanations to mask obvious inconsistencies (and failed prophecies)... and that the whole thing is seriously at odds with perfect being theology - perfect beings with omni-max capabilities can anticipate literally everything it is possible to anticipate - including when and how the principles in his contracts will fail. So it would be a little surprising for such a being to need any addendum's to any of their agreements.
What you are pointing out, as always, is your absolute inability to gain any meaningful knowledge of anything related to God or Christianity. Nothing failed except your understanding. Again. Tell me, is it fun to spend so much time bragging about your inability to understand simple subjects?

wilbur
02-27-2011, 09:21 AM
What you are pointing out, as always, is your absolute inability to gain any meaningful knowledge of anything related to God or Christianity. Nothing failed except your understanding. Again. Tell me, is it fun to spend so much time bragging about your inability to understand simple subjects?

Meh - As as usual, you mistake disagreement with ignorance. I'm very familiar with almost all the little theological explanations you parrot from your favorite apologists or pastors. Its pretty clear you take them all for granted, and don't apply any sort of skepticism towards them at all. Well, I do. I understand them. I know them. They don't stand up to scrutiny.

AmPat
02-27-2011, 10:52 AM
Meh - As as usual, you mistake disagreement with ignorance. I'm very familiar with almost all the little theological explanations you parrot from your favorite apologists or pastors. Its pretty clear you take them all for granted, and don't apply any sort of skepticism towards them at all. Well, I do. I understand them. I know them. They don't stand up to scrutiny.The God you ridicule and claim doesn't exist had a few words for you:

The fool has said in his heart, there is no God. Corrupt are they, and they have done abominable iniquity: there is none that do good. Psalms 53:1

The Night Owl
02-27-2011, 01:34 PM
I describe myself as a nontheist.

I like that.

The Night Owl
02-27-2011, 01:38 PM
The God you ridicule and claim doesn't exist had a few words for you:

The fool has said in his heart, there is no God. Corrupt are they, and they have done abominable iniquity: there is none that do good. Psalms 53:1



And here I thought atheists were supposed to be the elitists.

Rockntractor
02-27-2011, 02:01 PM
And here I thought atheists were supposed to be the elitists.

How about we just call you special?

Novaheart
02-27-2011, 03:29 PM
The God you ridicule and claim doesn't exist had a few words for you:

Major gods
Rod - The birth-giver, creator of all existent. Supreme god, according to some theories
Dažbog - Sun god, possibly a culture hero and a source of wealth and power
Jarilo - God of vegetation, fertility and spring; also associated with war and harvest
Morana - Goddess of harvest, witchcraft, winter and death
Perun - God of thunder and lightning
Živa - Goddess of love and fertility
Svarog - God of fire, sometimes described as a smith god
Svetovid - God of war, fertility and abundance
Triglav - Three-headed god
Veles - God of earth, waters, and the underworld
Zaria - Goddess of beauty
The Zorya - Three (or two) guardian goddesses that represent the morning, evening and midnight stars

Aengus - a god possibly associated with love, youth and poetic inspiration
Áine - goddess of love, summer, wealth and sovereignty
Banba, Ériu and Fódla - patron goddesses of Ireland
Bodb Derg - a king of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Brigid - daughter of the Dagda; associated with healing, fertility, craft and poetry
Clíodhna - queen of the Banshees
The Dagda - the supreme god and king of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Danu - the mother goddess of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Dian Cecht - god of healing
Étaín - the heroine of Tochmarc Étaíne
Lir - god of the sea
Lugh - legendary hero and High King of Ireland
Manannán mac Lir - god of the sea, like his father Lir
The Morrígna - a trio of war goddesses
Badb - a war goddess who caused fear and confusion among soldiers, often taking the form of a crow
Macha - a goddess associated with war, battle, horses and sovereignty
The Morrígan - a goddess of battle, strife and fertility
Nuada Airgetlám - first king of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Ogma - a warrior-poet, said to have invented the Ogham alphabet
Trí Dée Dána - the three gods of crafting
Creidhne - the artificer of the Tuatha Dé Danann, working in bronze, brass and gold
Goibniu - the smith of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Luchtaine - the carpenter of the Tuatha Dé Danann

CueSi
02-27-2011, 03:35 PM
Oooh, Celtic Pantheon.

Anyhow... it's like this. . . I know a guy who is ... Asatru. He believes in the Norse Pantheon. I don't. I don't put any effort into my lack of belief. I just don't. I'll respect his Gods because, I respect him. If you can find someone who believes in the Celtic Pantheon on this forum, chances are, I'll respect them too if they're not assholes.

Don't. Be. An. Asshole. <_<

~QC

hampshirebrit
02-27-2011, 04:01 PM
I describe myself as a nontheist.

As a description, as a stated "belief" in what you think you are, that's a bit weak, even, dare I say it, even a bit "gay" of you.

It really puts you on no higher a level than an agnostic, which is to say, a pretty wishy-washy "I can't really be bothered to think about it" kind of response.

I am not possessed of your obviously more evolved thinking on the issue, and that's probably a good thing.

I am a nasty-bastard anti-theist, me. I don't believe in god, and further, I think the whole idea of belief in any god is borderline bonkers and very bad for humanity at large, but I've learned to be tolerant and polite, and even nice about it, sometimes even very nice.

There are one or two die-hard Christian folks on this board that I have crossed swords with on this very issue, yet who I respect and indeed have special regard for, exactly because they give as good as they get and they know how to debate well, and respectfully.

Madisonian
02-27-2011, 04:06 PM
As as usual, you mistake disagreement with ignorance.

Easy mistake to make with many of your posts as many of your disagreements are ignorant.


They don't stand up to scrutiny.

Again, neither do a lot of your posts.

AmPat
02-27-2011, 06:22 PM
Major gods
Rod - The birth-giver, creator of all existent. Supreme god, according to some theories
Dažbog - Sun god, possibly a culture hero and a source of wealth and power
Jarilo - God of vegetation, fertility and spring; also associated with war and harvest
Morana - Goddess of harvest, witchcraft, winter and death
Perun - God of thunder and lightning
Živa - Goddess of love and fertility
Svarog - God of fire, sometimes described as a smith god
Svetovid - God of war, fertility and abundance
Triglav - Three-headed god
Veles - God of earth, waters, and the underworld
Zaria - Goddess of beauty
The Zorya - Three (or two) guardian goddesses that represent the morning, evening and midnight stars

Aengus - a god possibly associated with love, youth and poetic inspiration
Áine - goddess of love, summer, wealth and sovereignty
Banba, Ériu and Fódla - patron goddesses of Ireland
Bodb Derg - a king of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Brigid - daughter of the Dagda; associated with healing, fertility, craft and poetry
Clíodhna - queen of the Banshees
The Dagda - the supreme god and king of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Danu - the mother goddess of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Dian Cecht - god of healing
Étaín - the heroine of Tochmarc Étaíne
Lir - god of the sea
Lugh - legendary hero and High King of Ireland
Manannán mac Lir - god of the sea, like his father Lir
The Morrígna - a trio of war goddesses
Badb - a war goddess who caused fear and confusion among soldiers, often taking the form of a crow
Macha - a goddess associated with war, battle, horses and sovereignty
The Morrígan - a goddess of battle, strife and fertility
Nuada Airgetlám - first king of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Ogma - a warrior-poet, said to have invented the Ogham alphabet
Trí Dée Dána - the three gods of crafting
Creidhne - the artificer of the Tuatha Dé Danann, working in bronze, brass and gold
Goibniu - the smith of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Luchtaine - the carpenter of the Tuatha Dé Danann

You worship all the little gods you want. I will worship the One true God. :rolleyes:

AmPat
02-27-2011, 06:24 PM
And here I thought atheists were supposed to be the elitists.

Who's being "elitist?"

The Night Owl
02-27-2011, 07:08 PM
Who's being "elitist?"

If Psalm 53:1 is correct, then believers are enjoined to think of atheists as fools.

Rockntractor
02-27-2011, 07:14 PM
If Psalm 53:1 is correct, then believers are enjoined to think of atheists as fools.

We don't just think you are!:rolleyes:

The Night Owl
02-27-2011, 07:22 PM
We don't just think you are!:rolleyes:

And there we have it-- obnoxious Christian elitism.

Rockntractor
02-27-2011, 07:26 PM
And there we have it-- obnoxious Christian elitism.

I can't help it if I'm smarter then you, it ain't my doin!

wilbur
02-27-2011, 07:45 PM
If only perfect beings had been involved on both sides. Sadly, a covenant requires at least two sides.

Aside from all that, why aren't you more distressed about people involved in New Age religions, paganism, or various alternative belief systems? The danger today is not Focus on the Family in your bedroom but the American government in your phone calls, Internet, sports equipment, vaginas, cars, and food.

That sounds more alarming to me.

I don't pull any punches towards new age crap or paganism or the like... you just don't see much of it here.

The Night Owl
02-27-2011, 07:45 PM
I can't help it if I'm smarter then you, it ain't my doin!

I don't mind you thinking you're smarter than me. Just don't tell me I'm the elitist while you're doing it.

Rockntractor
02-27-2011, 07:48 PM
I don't mind you thinking you're smarter than me. Just don't tell me I'm the elitist while you're doing it.

I don't just think it, and I didn't say you were elitist, I said you were special!

The Night Owl
02-27-2011, 08:23 PM
If only perfect beings had been involved on both sides. Sadly, a covenant requires at least two sides.

Aside from all that, why aren't you more distressed about people involved in New Age religions, paganism, or various alternative belief systems? The danger today is not Focus on the Family in your bedroom but the American government in your phone calls, Internet, sports equipment, vaginas, cars, and food.

That sounds more alarming to me.

Are New Age religions and pagan religions built on texts which enjoin full submission from believers and which describe non-believers as being worthy of death? To my way of thinking, all religions, including New Age religions and pagan religions, are different versions of the same untruth but I don't think all religions can be described as equally dangerous.

The religions of Earth seem to be taking their turns menacing civilization but I think Christianity is ultimately the most dangerous religion on the planet. It's certainly the most nihilistic.

AmPat
02-27-2011, 08:40 PM
If Psalm 53:1 is correct, then believers are enjoined to think of atheists as fools.

Beleivers are not expected or encouraged to do any such thing. Those are God's words. He calls you a fool. Take it up with him at your judgement. I'm sure the fact that you were a smarmy prick toward him will just go swimmingly at your appearance.:rolleyes:

Novaheart
02-27-2011, 08:51 PM
Don't. Be. An. Asshole. <_<

~QC

"Do what you love"
"Do what you do best"
"Don't be an asshole"
"Be yourself"

I wish people would make up their minds.

The Night Owl
02-27-2011, 10:39 PM
Beleivers are not expected or encouraged to do any such thing. Those are God's words. He calls you a fool. Take it up with him at your judgement. I'm sure the fact that you were a smarmy prick toward him will just go swimmingly at your appearance.:rolleyes:

Is God right or wrong about unbelievers?

Lanie
02-27-2011, 11:49 PM
Let's try to stay with the pointless-anger-in-something-you-don't-believe-in angle. ;)

From what I can tell, it's usually an anger at the culture which SOME atheists feel push themselves upon everybody. It's obviously not at God himself.

Nova, you have to understand you're judging the Bible by your standards and your justice. You're also judging life by your standards.

Lanie
02-27-2011, 11:52 PM
OK, but God as a metaphor allows that one not believe in Zeus/God and yet Zeus/God is a metaphor for what he does believe in which is nature. While it's irrational perhaps to curse natural forces, we do it all the time when we drop something on our foot or stub our toe.

.

Actually, Nova has a point here. I listened to a sermon years ago about taking The Lord's name in vain. We do it because "God" holds a form of authority. You'd never say "Betty damn you!" Imagine if instead of yelling out "Jesus Christ!" you instead yelled out "Gingersnap!" lol. Invoking God makes something sound more important than it really is.

Lanie
02-27-2011, 11:55 PM
Major gods
Rod - The birth-giver, creator of all existent. Supreme god, according to some theories
Dažbog - Sun god, possibly a culture hero and a source of wealth and power
Jarilo - God of vegetation, fertility and spring; also associated with war and harvest
Morana - Goddess of harvest, witchcraft, winter and death
Perun - God of thunder and lightning
Živa - Goddess of love and fertility
Svarog - God of fire, sometimes described as a smith god
Svetovid - God of war, fertility and abundance
Triglav - Three-headed god
Veles - God of earth, waters, and the underworld
Zaria - Goddess of beauty
The Zorya - Three (or two) guardian goddesses that represent the morning, evening and midnight stars

Aengus - a god possibly associated with love, youth and poetic inspiration
Áine - goddess of love, summer, wealth and sovereignty
Banba, Ériu and Fódla - patron goddesses of Ireland
Bodb Derg - a king of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Brigid - daughter of the Dagda; associated with healing, fertility, craft and poetry
Clíodhna - queen of the Banshees
The Dagda - the supreme god and king of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Danu - the mother goddess of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Dian Cecht - god of healing
Étaín - the heroine of Tochmarc Étaíne
Lir - god of the sea
Lugh - legendary hero and High King of Ireland
Manannán mac Lir - god of the sea, like his father Lir
The Morrígna - a trio of war goddesses
Badb - a war goddess who caused fear and confusion among soldiers, often taking the form of a crow
Macha - a goddess associated with war, battle, horses and sovereignty
The Morrígan - a goddess of battle, strife and fertility
Nuada Airgetlám - first king of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Ogma - a warrior-poet, said to have invented the Ogham alphabet
Trí Dée Dána - the three gods of crafting
Creidhne - the artificer of the Tuatha Dé Danann, working in bronze, brass and gold
Goibniu - the smith of the Tuatha Dé Danann
Luchtaine - the carpenter of the Tuatha Dé Danann

Since I don't believe in them, I don't have a relationship with any of them. Relationship, something atheists aren't considering.

CueSi
02-28-2011, 12:09 AM
"Do what you love"
"Do what you do best"
"Don't be an asshole"
"Be yourself"

I wish people would make up their minds.

You can only credit me for the bolded.

~QC

CueSi
02-28-2011, 12:10 AM
Are New Age religions and pagan religions built on texts which enjoin full submission from believers and which describe non-believers as being worthy of death? To my way of thinking, all religions, including New Age religions and pagan religions, are different versions of the same untruth but I don't think all religions can be described as equally dangerous.

The religions of Earth seem to be taking their turns menacing civilization but I think Christianity is ultimately the most dangerous religion on the planet. It's certainly the most nihilistic.

I now understand why they ask if you're a special kind of stupid, Night Owl.

~QC

Zathras
02-28-2011, 01:03 AM
I now understand why they ask if you're a special kind of stupid, Night Owl.

~QC

Yeah, I think TNO missed the whole 911 thing and later actions taken by the "Religion of Peace".

Must be the neighbor of this guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCFMDLakxaY

txradioguy
02-28-2011, 06:04 AM
Is God right or wrong about unbelievers?

What does it really matter to you TNO?

I mean honestly...how many of these threads have you engaged in over the years just to get your rocks off on bashing Christians?

We KNOW you don't like religion period and you hate the Church. And those that have beenhere long neough know it goes back to your youth.

So why keep doing this? You're never gonna be ssaisfied with an answer. The only reason you engage in these is to satisfy your urge to bash anything having to do with religion...Christianity and the Church.

So again I ask...if you hate all of these things...why even bother posting in these threads?

wilbur
02-28-2011, 09:44 AM
From what I can tell, it's usually an anger at the culture which SOME atheists feel push themselves upon everybody. It's obviously not at God himself.


Well, there's some interesting things going on the brain when we think about God (or Gods)... I don't quite know how this relates to an atheists feelings of anger towards a deity, but its good food for thought.

Different areas of the brain show activity on a FMRI when thinking about oneself, versus thinking about external entities like other people. In other words, if you're thinking about yourself, one section of your brain shows activity, and if your thinking about Bob, Jane or anybody else... a different region of your brain shows activity.

Well, since God is supposed to be some external being - like another human - one would think that when one prays to God, or thinks about God, that the areas of the brain associated with external persons would go bright. But that doesnt happen. The parts of the brain associated with the self go bright, at least in some sense, suggesting that people might possibly be referring bits of themselves as God - unknowingly. It might be that people are externalizing bits of their personality as another person, while mistakenly believing it to be an actual external person.

If true, this would obviously throw an interesting twist on the 'atheists are angry at God' claim.

txradioguy
02-28-2011, 10:02 AM
Well, there's some interesting things going on the brain when we think about God (or Gods)... I don't quite know how this relates to an atheists feelings of anger towards a deity, but its good food for thought.

Different areas of the brain show activity on a FMRI when thinking about oneself, versus thinking about external entities like other people. In other words, if you're thinking about yourself, one section of your brain shows activity, and if your thinking about Bob, Jane or anybody else... a different region of your brain shows activity.

Well, since God is supposed to be some external being - like another human - one would think that when one prays to God, or thinks about God, that the areas of the brain associated with external persons would go bright. But that doesnt happen. The parts of the brain associated with the self go bright, at least in some sense, suggesting that people might possibly be referring bits of themselves as God - unknowingly. It might be that people are externalizing bits of their personality as another person, while mistakenly believing it to be an actual external person.

If true, this would obviously throw an interesting twist on the 'atheists are angry at God' claim.

You don't believe in God.

Why do you care what those of us that do...think about the matter?

Why do non believers like you and TNO spend so much time obsessing over and mocking that which you don't believe in?

If you TRULY didn't care about God or the belief there of...you wouldn't spend an extrodinary amount of time in the matter.

wilbur
02-28-2011, 10:17 AM
You don't believe in God.

Why do you care what those of us that do...think about the matter?


Why wouldn't I care!??

CaughtintheMiddle1990
02-28-2011, 10:34 AM
Why do Atheists care about God so much?

FYI--My views on God are still evolving. I know there's a higher power, but I do not--this I know for certain--believe in any of the Abrahamic religions anymore; their sense of morality isn't compatible with my own. I find a lot of the Eastern religions fascinating; they're closest to what I consider ''the truth.''

txradioguy
02-28-2011, 10:35 AM
Why wouldn't I care!??

Because if you were truly the disinterested non believer you claim to be...you'd be content to live and let live.

But you can't. You won't.

Why? Why does it matter to a non believer lilke you that I and other believe in God?

Why does it matter to you that we are Christians?

Why do you have this incessant need to mock and scorn that which you don't believe in?

Why can't you just agree to disagree about religion and go on your merry way safe in your stand that there is no Higher Power?

wilbur
02-28-2011, 10:59 AM
Because if you were truly the disinterested non believer you claim to be...you'd be content to live and let live.

Uh, no. Think about what you're saying, because its just absurd. Do religious beliefs (Christian, Muslim ,etc) affect the world, or not? Of course they do.

Religious beliefs cause people to do things. Sometimes they cause people to help others, but other times they cause people to fly jetliners into skyscrapers. Sometimes they are benign delusions, but other times they cause people to persecute or marginalize homosexuals, or other groups of people. I think the world would be better if people believed more true things and less false things.

So again, why wouldnt I care!?!?

txradioguy
02-28-2011, 11:20 AM
Uh, no. Think about what you're saying, because its just absurd. Do religious beliefs (Christian, Muslim ,etc) affect the world, or not? Of course they do.

Religious beliefs cause people to do things. Sometimes they cause people to help others, but other times they cause people to fly jetliners into skyscrapers. Sometimes they are benign delusions, but other times they cause people to persecute or marginalize homosexuals, or other groups of people. I think the world would be better if people believed more true things and less false things.

So again, why wouldnt I care!?!?

Sorry wilbur you can't wiggle out of it by trying to counter with a question of your own.

Just answer the question before you.

If you don't believe in God...why do you care that we do?

Gingersnap
02-28-2011, 11:37 AM
Well, there's some interesting things going on the brain when we think about God (or Gods)... I don't quite know how this relates to an atheists feelings of anger towards a deity, but its good food for thought.

Different areas of the brain show activity on a FMRI when thinking about oneself, versus thinking about external entities like other people. In other words, if you're thinking about yourself, one section of your brain shows activity, and if your thinking about Bob, Jane or anybody else... a different region of your brain shows activity.

Well, since God is supposed to be some external being - like another human - one would think that when one prays to God, or thinks about God, that the areas of the brain associated with external persons would go bright. But that doesnt happen. The parts of the brain associated with the self go bright, at least in some sense, suggesting that people might possibly be referring bits of themselves as God - unknowingly. It might be that people are externalizing bits of their personality as another person, while mistakenly believing it to be an actual external person.

If true, this would obviously throw an interesting twist on the 'atheists are angry at God' claim.

Firstly, the study you are looking at looked Buddhist mediation and Franciscan 'centering' prayer and it showed about what you expect - a diminishment of activity in the pre-frontal cortex. Subjects were not paying attention to their moment-to-moment experience of self and experienced feelings of transcendence/oneness. Similar studies of people speaking in tongues demonstrate pretty much exactly what the subjects themselves claim: they are not willfully speaking, let alone willfully speaking in tongues. The area of the brain responsible for intentional speech/verbal communication is oddly inactive. Other similar studies have demonstrated that when people converse with God, they very much look like they are conversing with another person under imaging.

Which leaves us where? No place new, really. As many others have pointed out, thinking about Cherry Pies lights up the parts of the brains involved with Cherry Pie detection, analysis, and experience. It is even possible to trick the brain into Cherry Pie mode by stimulating certain memories and areas of the brain. Bingo: instant totally false Cherry Pie experience. There is no pie and we have proof.

Except Cherry Pies do exist and people do eat them, make them, think about them, and derive quantifiable physiological changes and benefits from Cherry Pie consumption. In the end, there's no resolution here.

Beyond that, imaging studies which attempt to tie brain activity to emotions and complex thought are increasingly coming under fire as being oversold. There have also been some hard questions about study design. Either way, not much is helpful.

wilbur
02-28-2011, 11:41 AM
Sorry wilbur you can't wiggle out of it by trying to counter with a question of your own.

Just answer the question before you.

If you don't believe in God...why do you care that we do?

I did answer:confused:

Let me quote it again for you.



Religious beliefs cause people to do things. Sometimes they cause people to help others, but other times they cause people to fly jetliners into skyscrapers. Sometimes they are benign delusions, but other times they cause people to persecute or marginalize homosexuals, or other groups of people. I think the world would be better if people believed more true things and less false things.


To quote Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction: "English motherfucker, do you speak it?"

txradioguy
02-28-2011, 11:55 AM
I did answer:confused:

Let me quote it again for you.



That's not an answer that's long winded BS.

I asked you why you care about my beliefs if you don't believe yourself.

It's a rather straight forward and easy question to answer.

wilbur
02-28-2011, 11:59 AM
That's not an answer that's long winded BS.

I asked you why you care about my beliefs if you don't believe yourself.

It's a rather straight forward and easy question to answer.

Nothing left to do here but faceplam this idiot. See my avatar.

Odysseus
02-28-2011, 05:27 PM
"Do what you love"
"Do what you do best"
"Don't be an asshole"
"Be yourself"

I wish people would make up their minds.

So, you're saying that you can't be yourself if you're not being an ass****?

MrsSmith
02-28-2011, 06:43 PM
Uh, no. Think about what you're saying, because its just absurd. Do religious beliefs (Christian, Muslim ,etc) affect the world, or not? Of course they do.

Religious beliefs cause people to do things. Sometimes they cause people to help others, but other times they cause people to fly jetliners into skyscrapers. Sometimes they are benign delusions, but other times they cause people to persecute or marginalize homosexuals, or other groups of people. I think the world would be better if people believed more true things and less false things.

So again, why wouldnt I care!?!?

Of course, those that believe in the religion of atheism are just as likely as any other person to become mass murderers. They are, however, far less likely to sacrifice in order to give to others. They are far less likely to spend their own money to go on a mission trip to build homes for the very poor, or provide for orphans, or teach school in poor countries. In other words, people tend to screw things up a lot unless they really have a connection to God and follow His will. It's in the nature of humans to do the wrong thing. In fact, humans without religious connections have killed more people than anyone else, whether they were atheist Communist leaders or abortion "doctors."

The Night Owl
02-28-2011, 06:54 PM
Of course, those that believe in the religion of atheism...

The religion of atheism? Is that sort of like the profession of non-prostitute?

wilbur
02-28-2011, 07:26 PM
Of course, those that believe in the religion of atheism are just as likely as any other person to become mass murderers. They are, however, far less likely to sacrifice in order to give to others. They are far less likely to spend their own money to go on a mission trip to build homes for the very poor, or provide for orphans, or teach school in poor countries.

Of course, all these claims are bullshit - to my knowledge there isn't any real credible research that claims to have good measures of the charitable giving of non-theists or secularists. Your fuzzy quantifiers "far more" and "far less" are bad attempts to hide that lack of knowledge. You don't know... nobody does, yet. Christians and Christian organizations, of course, make their best efforts to record their contributions in the name of Christianity - secularists usually arent giving in the name of secularism.

And the other flip-side that I've heard raised on this point, is that environments where there are high social pressures to participate in charitable giving, such as churches and the like, may actually make people worse off - because many people may end up giving beyond their means in order to conform to the group.

And its not even clear that charitable giving is an optimal path to a better society - resources may be better spent elsewhere and produce more prosperity - as every red blooded capitalist here should know. So using charitable giving as some sort of litmus test for personal righteousness and goodness is crap.

In any case, there is no real accurate tally for secularists or non-theists, so your points are simply self-serving falsehoods.



In other words, people tend to screw things up a lot unless they really have a connection to God and follow His will. It's in the nature of humans to do the wrong thing. In fact, humans without religious connections have killed more people than anyone else, whether they were atheist Communist leaders or abortion "doctors."

Way to sneak abortion in there, as if its just a given that your theological position on the matter is the truth - but good for bringing it up - its one glaring issue where I think it can be demonstrated that religious belief causes tremendous harm and oppression.

Rockntractor
02-28-2011, 08:03 PM
And the other flip-side that I've heard raised on this point, is that environments where there are high social pressures to participate in charitable giving, such as churches and the like, may actually make people worse off - because many people may end up giving beyond their means in order to conform to the group.



Do you have a study to prove this?

Lanie
02-28-2011, 08:09 PM
Well, there's some interesting things going on the brain when we think about God (or Gods)... I don't quite know how this relates to an atheists feelings of anger towards a deity, but its good food for thought.

Different areas of the brain show activity on a FMRI when thinking about oneself, versus thinking about external entities like other people. In other words, if you're thinking about yourself, one section of your brain shows activity, and if your thinking about Bob, Jane or anybody else... a different region of your brain shows activity.

Well, since God is supposed to be some external being - like another human - one would think that when one prays to God, or thinks about God, that the areas of the brain associated with external persons would go bright. But that doesnt happen. The parts of the brain associated with the self go bright, at least in some sense, suggesting that people might possibly be referring bits of themselves as God - unknowingly. It might be that people are externalizing bits of their personality as another person, while mistakenly believing it to be an actual external person.

If true, this would obviously throw an interesting twist on the 'atheists are angry at God' claim.

I wonder which part of my brain went off when I tried to ignore God and he wouldn't let me.

wilbur
02-28-2011, 08:17 PM
Do you have a study to prove this?

No - its just a possibility. Though it is a certainty that there are a lot of Christians being scammed into giving money that they really shouldn't spare, to shady mega preachers and the like, because they are pressured to participate in the virtue of charity. Who knows how many that amounts too... wonder if MrsSmith counts them in her tally ;)

Rockntractor
02-28-2011, 08:28 PM
No - its just a possibility. Though it is a certainty that there are a lot of Christians being scammed into giving money that they really shouldn't spare, to shady mega preachers and the like, because they are pressured to participate in the virtue of charity. Who knows how many that amounts too... wonder if MrsSmith counts them in her tally ;)

Mrs. Smith knows there are bad people mixed in with everything.

Gingersnap
02-28-2011, 08:33 PM
No - its just a possibility. Though it is a certainty that there are a lot of Christians being scammed into giving money that they really shouldn't spare, to shady mega preachers and the like, because they are pressured to participate in the virtue of charity. Who knows how many that amounts too... wonder if MrsSmith counts them in her tally ;)

" A lot"? How many is that? I'm pretty active in religious circles and I don't actually know anybody who donates to televangelists. I know they have donors, of course, but somebody out there buying spray-on hair and dog outfits, too.

I don't think it's "a lot" in the big scheme of things.

Charity is a virtue and not something we are always doing because it feels good, it makes economic sense to government bureaucrats, or because it's "better" from a social point of view for us to spend money on strangers as opposed to buying crack. :p

Lanie
02-28-2011, 08:51 PM
No - its just a possibility. Though it is a certainty that there are a lot of Christians being scammed into giving money that they really shouldn't spare, to shady mega preachers and the like, because they are pressured to participate in the virtue of charity. Who knows how many that amounts too... wonder if MrsSmith counts them in her tally ;)

Okay, first of all, churches need money to run. That's not a scam. Somebody has to pay to keep the lights on.

Next, the churches I've been to have shown which charitable causes that money goes to. One of the churches I go to even has a pantry to help out those who are poor.

I realize there are some scam artists out there, but to talk about the "pressure to give to charity" is low. Let us decide which churches are legit and which ones are not. We don't need the American Atheists to help us.

wilbur
02-28-2011, 08:52 PM
" A lot"? How many is that? I'm pretty active in religious circles and I don't actually know anybody who donates to televangelists. I know they have donors, of course, but somebody out there buying spray-on hair and dog outfits, too.

I don't think it's "a lot" in the big scheme of things.

Charity is a virtue and not something we are always doing because it feels good, it makes economic sense to government bureaucrats, or because it's "better" from a social point of view for us to spend money on strangers as opposed to buying crack. :p

Well, the upshot of all this is that modest measured lead in charitable giving is hardly a sufficient (and maybe not even sensible) criteria with which to measure the greatness or truthiness of one's particular belief system.

And its not even necessarily a good measure of one's personal character. Yes, some do give because they consider it to be a virtue, but some others certainly give because of the social pressures of their particular group, or because it makes economic sense (tax breaks, etc), or for a whole host of other reasons which do not really reflect on one's character.

Personally, I generally think it better to eliminate a false belief system in favor of the truth, even if it produced a slight up-tick in charitable giving in those who believed it. I think we'd be better off with truth.

The Night Owl
02-28-2011, 09:14 PM
Okay, first of all, churches need money to run. That's not a scam. Somebody has to pay to keep the lights on...

...and fund six figure salaries for pastors. :rolleyes:

The Night Owl
02-28-2011, 09:16 PM
I thought this video was pretty good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bIWztdOlZg

Gingersnap
02-28-2011, 09:37 PM
Personally, I generally think it better to eliminate a false belief system in favor of the truth, even if it produced a slight up-tick in charitable giving in those who believed it. I think we'd be better off with truth.

When you discover that "truth", do let all of us know. So far as I've been able to discern, every politician, academic, activist, ideological martyr, and half-naked reflexive protester has claimed to have a lock on the "truth". Many of them hold truths that are diametrically opposed to identical people holding their own truths.

Rather than going with your personal identification of false belief systems right away, I believe I'll make my own decisions about disbursing my own income until you've demonstrated your track record in this area. ;)

wilbur
02-28-2011, 11:55 PM
When you discover that "truth", do let all of us know. So far as I've been able to discern, every politician, academic, activist, ideological martyr, and half-naked reflexive protester has claimed to have a lock on the "truth".

Don't forget to add Bible thumping Christians (and Koran waving Muslims and all the rest) to that list! Oh wait, scratch that - they are all always so meek and humble with their own "truths".



Rather than going with your personal identification of false belief systems right away, I believe I'll make my own decisions about disbursing my own income until you've demonstrated your track record in this area. ;)

Well, one day you might get with the program... perhaps you might even stop believing in things like the divinity of a cosmic Jewish zombie who is his own father... till then, you have my pity!

CueSi
03-01-2011, 12:00 AM
Don't forget to add Bible thumping Christians (and Koran waving Muslims and all the rest) to that list! Oh wait, scratch that - they are all always so meek and humble with their own "truths".



Well, one day you might get with the program... perhaps you might even stop believing in things like the divinity of a cosmic Jewish zombie who is his own father... till then, you have my pity!

Dude, Ginger's one of the nicest people in this forum. What the hell, man?

~QC

txradioguy
03-01-2011, 12:36 AM
Dude, Ginger's one of the nicest people in this forum. What the hell, man?

~QC

He's just proven right there the truth in the title of this thread.

wilbur
03-01-2011, 12:37 AM
Dude, Ginger's one of the nicest people in this forum. What the hell, man?

~QC

Generally, yes - then other times the faux intellectual humility comes out. Anyways, she's a big girl. Call me crazy, but I'm certain few (if any) of my words could give her a bad day.

Rockntractor
03-01-2011, 12:39 AM
Generally, yes - then other times the faux intellectual humility comes out. Anyways, she's a big girl. I'm certain few (if any) of my words could give her a bad day.

:rolleyes:

txradioguy
03-01-2011, 12:41 AM
The religion of atheism? Is that sort of like the profession of non-prostitute?

No and I've made this point directly to you before.

Atheism IS your religion. Your High Priestess is the late Madeline Murray-O'Hare.

You spend your time spreading the Gospel of Godlessness to those of us that believe in a higher power.

Your prophets spend millions of dollars every year taking Christians to court to prevent a child from hearing the term "Christmas Break" uttered by a teacher...or to keep the Ten Commandments out of a Court Room or In God We Trust off the dollar bill.

And you won't stop in your zealotry until you've converted the masses to your way...to your path downt he road of non-Believing.

If it wasn't a religion to you and to rubliw you wouldn't waste so much time mocking people that DO believe and trying to convince us that our views are wrong.

txradioguy
03-01-2011, 12:42 AM
Generally, yes - then other times the faux intellectual humility comes out. Anyways, she's a big girl. Call me crazy, but I'm certain few (if any) of my words could give her a bad day.

This coming from the guy who exudes faux intellect 24/7 around here in an effort to convince us he's smarter than the rest of us.

:rolleyes:

CueSi
03-01-2011, 12:46 AM
Generally, yes - then other times the faux intellectual humility comes out. Anyways, she's a big girl. Call me crazy, but I'm certain few (if any) of my words could give her a bad day.

How do you know it's faked? Just because you may fake yours doesn't mean she fakes hers. ;)

Yeah, but be the bigger man. . . it wouldn't give her a bad day, but you escalated, dude.

~QC

Novaheart
03-01-2011, 12:49 AM
No and I've made this point directly to you before.

Atheism IS your religion. Your High Priestess is the late Madeline Murray-O'Hare.



There is no more reason to believe in Asian desert gods than there is to believe in the ancient British and European gods.

txradioguy
03-01-2011, 12:58 AM
There is no more reason to believe in Asian desert gods than there is to believe in the ancient British and European gods.

Then if you don't believe in any of them...why do you spend so much time and energy trying to dispel us of our beliefs?

I could care less if you are an Atheist. Could care less if you're a druid.

That's your thing and I'm happy for you.

I have friends in the military that are Atheist and it doesn't affect our friendship one bit.

My point being if you truly don't believe...why pester us about what we DO believe?

Why not just let it be.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-01-2011, 09:33 AM
...and fund six figure salaries for pastors. :rolleyes:

I come from a Catholic background and I call BS on that. Not every Christian Church is a Megachurch. One of my teachers in HS, who was a Catholic Brother, lived very, very modestly--And he was a good man. All of the Priests I've ever met lived generally meager to slightly comfortable lives; I've met no wealthy priests or pastors. My main qualm with Christianity is the Old Testament morality. Jesus, however, was a great man and teacher. I don't think his words, wisdom and philosophy should be cast aside by society because of the ugliness of the Old Testament.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-01-2011, 09:36 AM
When you discover that "truth", do let all of us know. So far as I've been able to discern, every politician, academic, activist, ideological martyr, and half-naked reflexive protester has claimed to have a lock on the "truth". Many of them hold truths that are diametrically opposed to identical people holding their own truths.

Rather than going with your personal identification of false belief systems right away, I believe I'll make my own decisions about disbursing my own income until you've demonstrated your track record in this area. ;)

+1. You're a very kind, smart, and respectable woman Ginger. Even though I consider myself Liberal leaning and thus disagree with you on probably a lot of political points, I respect you, your opinions and your intelligence. Intelligence, for me, is one of the most appealing characteristics a lady can have. So keep on posting--you have fans ;p.

Gingersnap
03-01-2011, 10:11 AM
Thanks guys:

http://i53.tinypic.com/21jbq5e.jpg

:D

Odysseus
03-01-2011, 10:36 AM
Generally, yes - then other times the faux intellectual humility comes out. Anyways, she's a big girl. Call me crazy, but I'm certain few (if any) of my words could give her a bad day.

And if they did, what do you care? You've got the sole line to the truth. :rolleyes:

Adam Wood
03-01-2011, 11:55 AM
It's always funny watching militant atheists evangelize to people about their non-beliefs.

The Night Owl
03-01-2011, 12:02 PM
I come from a Catholic background and I call BS on that. Not every Christian Church is a Megachurch. One of my teachers in HS, who was a Catholic Brother, lived very, very modestly--And he was a good man. All of the Priests I've ever met lived generally meager to slightly comfortable lives; I've met no wealthy priests or pastors.

No argument here. The priests at the churches I was brought up in were all good guys.

Wei Wu Wei
03-01-2011, 12:11 PM
Isn't ironic that the whole theme of this thread "Atheists getting angry about something they don't believe in" shares that common theme with people who insist on arguing against the idea of Communism, who post several times a day trying to discredit communism?

Why is that? If you don't believe in it, why do you care so much about trying to discredit it?

Are you afraid that maybe you are wrong?

Adam Wood
03-01-2011, 12:24 PM
Isn't ironic that the whole theme of this thread "Atheists getting angry about something they don't believe in" shares that common theme with people who insist on arguing against the idea of Communism, who post several times a day trying to discredit communism?

Why is that? If you don't believe in it, why do you care so much about trying to discredit it?

Are you afraid that maybe you are wrong?What? Are you trying to claim that communism does not exist?

wilbur
03-01-2011, 12:55 PM
How do you know it's faked? Just because you may fake yours doesn't mean she fakes hers. ;)

Yeah, but be the bigger man. . . it wouldn't give her a bad day, but you escalated, dude.

~QC

Sorry, I find it pretty disingenuous when some make comments about my "lock on truth", while themselves being members of institutions which are, quite frankly, THE world leaders in the dubious "locks on truth" department.. or while I'm in a back and forth with a lady (aka MrsSmith) who at the drop of a hat will assert that to disagree with her on certain things, is to literally disagree with the creator of the universe and that's all there is to it (without a single drop of self-doubt).

txradioguy
03-01-2011, 01:20 PM
Isn't ironic that the whole theme of this thread "Atheists getting angry about something they don't believe in" shares that common theme with people who insist on arguing against the idea of Communism, who post several times a day trying to discredit communism?

Why do you try so hard to convince us it works when the evidence proves otherwise?

And why do it on a Conservative forum?


Why is that? If you don't believe in it, why do you care so much about trying to discredit it?

I don't have to try. Communism has discredited itself quite handily over the last 100+ years.


Are you afraid that maybe you are wrong?

I've been to the failed communist regimies of the world. In fact I'm in one of them now.

All I have to do is look around me to know how right I am in my belief that Communism belongs on the historical scrap heap of failed political ideology.

Odysseus
03-01-2011, 01:29 PM
Isn't ironic that the whole theme of this thread "Atheists getting angry about something they don't believe in" shares that common theme with people who insist on arguing against the idea of Communism, who post several times a day trying to discredit communism?

Why is that? If you don't believe in it, why do you care so much about trying to discredit it?

Are you afraid that maybe you are wrong?

No, we are afraid that people who continue to believe in communism, despite a century of evidence of its massive failures, will continue to try to impose it on us. We fight because refuse to be enslaved.

CueSi
03-01-2011, 05:38 PM
Sorry, I find it pretty disingenuous when some make comments about my "lock on truth", while themselves being members of institutions which are, quite frankly, THE world leaders in the dubious "locks on truth" department.. or while I'm in a back and forth with a lady (aka MrsSmith) who at the drop of a hat will assert that to disagree with her on certain things, is to literally disagree with the creator of the universe and that's all there is to it (without a single drop of self-doubt).

So you're assuming a certain attitude based on the group she belongs to and not on her own disposition. Who's being disingenuous here? Please don't misdirect with Mrs. Smith. That's not my issue.

~QC

Wei Wu Wei
03-01-2011, 07:14 PM
No, we are afraid that people who continue to believe in communism, despite a century of evidence of its massive failures, will continue to try to impose it on us.

I don't care if you're a commie or not. Believe whatever you want to believe, why do you care what other people believe?
(notice the parallel here to atheists who whine and cry about believers)

The United States of America is not going to become socialist or communist in any of our lifetime's, no one is going to try to impose it on you.

(even in the end, when it's all said and done, you still don't have to believe in it, that's what the gulags will be for ;) )

Rockntractor
03-01-2011, 07:33 PM
I don't care if you're a commie or not. Believe whatever you want to believe, why do you care what other people believe?
(notice the parallel here to atheists who whine and cry about believers)

The United States of America is not going to become socialist or communist in any of our lifetime's, no one is going to try to impose it on you.

(even in the end, when it's all said and done, you still don't have to believe in it, that's what the gulags will be for ;) )

You are just a trained socialist tool sent here here to disrupt and inject progressive/communist talking points.
Unfortunately we are a small board so they aren't going to waste one of the smart ones on us.:(

Wei Wu Wei
03-01-2011, 07:55 PM
Yes George Soros, Raul Castro, Hugo Chavez and the dead preserved body of Comrade Lenin all meet up with me once a month to discuss my new talking points and pay me with giant burlap sacks filled with marijuana and some American flags to burn

Rockntractor
03-01-2011, 08:03 PM
Yes George Soros, Raul Castro, Hugo Chavez and the dead preserved body of Comrade Lenin all meet up with me once a month to discuss my new talking points and pay me with giant burlap sacks filled with marijuana and some American flags to burn

I knew it!:rolleyes:

lacarnut
03-01-2011, 08:26 PM
I knew it!:rolleyes:

The truth finally comes out especially the part about kneeling at the alter of the preserved body of Lenin.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-01-2011, 08:28 PM
You are just a trained socialist tool sent here here to disrupt and inject progressive/communist talking points.
Unfortunately we are a small board so they aren't going to waste one of the smart ones on us.:(

Wei is a communist. A straight up Marxist. I consider myself a Liberal/progressive, but I don't follow or even like the words of Karl Marx, and I feel the idea of communism actually being workable is nothing more than a fairy tale. Please don't confuse the two.

I'm a liberal who is also a theist and anti-communist. Wei is a communist and (presumably) an atheist. By today's standards men like Harry Truman, Eisenhower, and Nixon would be considered Liberals, and my political sentiments echo their own in terms of economics, but they were also known for their staunch anti-communism and started and led for years the Cold War which brought to light the tyranny of communism. Men like Truman, Ike, and Nixon were God believing men who didn't hold any anti-American sentiment, nor did they see any problem with capitalism or the Western way of life. People like Wei Wu do see capitalism and our western way of life as incredibly flawed, or even evil, and that's a pretty big difference. I believe in capitalism, simply with regulations. He doesn't believe in capitalism at all.

Rockntractor
03-01-2011, 08:31 PM
Wei is a communist. A straight up Marxist. I consider myself a Liberal/progressive, but I don't follow or even like the words of Karl Marx, and I feel the idea of communism actually being workable is nothing more than a fairy tale. Please don't confuse the two.

I'm a liberal who is also a theist and anti-communist. Wei is a communist and (presumably) an atheist. By today's standards men like Harry Truman, Eisenhower, and Nixon would be considered Liberals, and my political sentiments echo their own in terms of economics, but they were also known for their staunch anti-communism and started and led for years the Cold War which brought to light the tyranny of communism. Men like Truman, Ike, and Nixon were God believing men who didn't hold any anti-American sentiment, nor did they see any problem with capitalism or the Western way of life. People like Wei Wu do see capitalism and our western way of life as incredibly flawed, or even evil, and that's a pretty big difference. I believe in capitalism, simply with regulations. He doesn't believe in capitalism at all.

I have never compared you to the Weible nor will I ever!

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-01-2011, 09:15 PM
I have never compared you to the Weible nor will I ever!


Thanks. It's just the label of progressive or liberal gets lumped in with that of communist; Liberals are frequently called Socialists or Communists, and Marxists attempt to hijack the Liberal label for their own ends. You and I are both Americans and Capitalists, we simply differ on what level of government intervention or regulation is necessary or correct in Capitalism. And I'm not sure if you're a conservative or a libertarian, but if you're a conservative then a libertarian would differ from both of us on the same matter.

Ironically, by the way, you know a lot of Communists whom I've come across tend to dislike even FDR because they felt he protected capitalism and saved it from itself--Their words. In the '30s, Communists were looking at our economic crisis and the despair of the people as an opportunity to fuel a Bolshevist type movement here, and when they failed to do so and Roosevelt didn't turn our nation into a communist nation they turned against him and began putting their hopes in groups like the CPUSA.

Lanie
03-01-2011, 10:19 PM
Why not just let it be.

To be fair, a theist started a thread about atheists supposedly being angrier at God.

Just making a point guys. Don't shoot me.

Wilbur, I do think you might have some anger issues or elites ones. I will pray for your soul. Hope that doesn't tick you off. Wait, I'm not sure if I care about that.

Rockntractor
03-01-2011, 10:23 PM
Wilbur, I do think you might have some anger issues or elites ones. I will pray for your soul. Hope that doesn't tick you off. Wait, I'm not sure if I care about that.

I'm not sure he has one.:confused:

RobJohnson
03-01-2011, 10:43 PM
http://afeatheradrift.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/atheist-sex.jpg

Adam Wood
03-01-2011, 10:44 PM
http://afeatheradrift.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/atheist-sex.jpg

PFAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHAAA!!!!


Now that's funny, I don't care who you are!

Wei Wu Wei
03-01-2011, 10:47 PM
Wei is a communist. A straight up Marxist. I consider myself a Liberal/progressive, but I don't follow or even like the words of Karl Marx, and I feel the idea of communism actually being workable is nothing more than a fairy tale. Please don't confuse the two.

I'm a liberal who is also a theist and anti-communist. Wei is a communist and (presumably) an atheist. By today's standards men like Harry Truman, Eisenhower, and Nixon would be considered Liberals, and my political sentiments echo their own in terms of economics, but they were also known for their staunch anti-communism and started and led for years the Cold War which brought to light the tyranny of communism. Men like Truman, Ike, and Nixon were God believing men who didn't hold any anti-American sentiment, nor did they see any problem with capitalism or the Western way of life. People like Wei Wu do see capitalism and our western way of life as incredibly flawed, or even evil, and that's a pretty big difference. I believe in capitalism, simply with regulations. He doesn't believe in capitalism at all.

dude you are a regular college republican i don't know in what sense you consider yourself a "progressive" lmao

Wei Wu Wei
03-01-2011, 10:53 PM
Thanks. It's just the label of progressive or liberal gets lumped in with that of communist;

you're not a liberal or a progressive


Liberals are frequently called Socialists or Communists,

Only by right wing pundits like glenn beck or rush limbaugh and dude I don't know if you got the memo but these people are entertainers they aren't meant to be taken that seriously.


and Marxists attempt to hijack the Liberal label for their own ends.

No marxists are extremely critical of liberals for the reasons you are demonstrating.

Marxists do not try to hijack the liberal label idk what you are talking about.


You and I are both Americans and Capitalists, we simply differ on what level of government intervention or regulation is necessary or correct in Capitalism.

This places you center-right at best, just plain conservative otherwise. the people on this forum are far-far-right.

You are confusing progressivism with multiculturalism or something i don't even know.



And I'm not sure if you're a conservative or a libertarian, but if you're a conservative then a libertarian would differ from both of us on the same matter.

Conservatives are more fundamentalist about their own way of life and seek to preserve that way of life and F everyone else.

Libertarians are far more idealistic but also stupider because they think Ayn Rand was an actual philosopher. However, they do tend to recognize the unholy marriage between government and corporations, even though they see it because they are trying to save capitalism.


Ironically, by the way, you know a lot of Communists whom I've come across tend to dislike even FDR because they felt he protected capitalism and saved it from itself--Their words. In the '30s, Communists were looking at our economic crisis and the despair of the people as an opportunity to fuel a Bolshevist type movement here, and when they failed to do so and Roosevelt didn't turn our nation into a communist nation they turned against him and began putting their hopes in groups like the CPUSA.

Right. keep reading with an open mind.

Wei Wu Wei
03-01-2011, 10:55 PM
http://afeatheradrift.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/atheist-sex.jpg

the real joke is cry out nothing at all because their sex sucks booya

Adam Wood
03-01-2011, 11:06 PM
you're not a liberal or a progressive



Only by right wing pundits like glenn beck or rush limbaugh and dude I don't know if you got the memo but these people are entertainers they aren't meant to be taken that seriously.



No marxists are extremely critical of liberals for the reasons you are demonstrating.

Marxists do not try to hijack the liberal label idk what you are talking about.



This places you center-right at best, just plain conservative otherwise. the people on this forum are far-far-right.

You are confusing progressivism with multiculturalism or something i don't even know.




Conservatives are more fundamentalist about their own way of life and seek to preserve that way of life and F everyone else.

Libertarians are far more idealistic but also stupider because they think Ayn Rand was an actual philosopher. However, they do tend to recognize the unholy marriage between government and corporations, even though they see it because they are trying to save capitalism.



Right. keep reading with an open mind.Jesus....

Here's $20. Try going down to Target and picking up a sense of humor. Pretty sure they're in the pharmacy section, right next to the tampons, which means that you should be able to find it easily.



Oh, and Charlie Sheen called. He wants his sanity back. Apparently, you've fucked it up pretty bad and he wants to try to re-assemble it.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-01-2011, 11:12 PM
you're not a liberal or a progressive



Only by right wing pundits like glenn beck or rush limbaugh and dude I don't know if you got the memo but these people are entertainers they aren't meant to be taken that seriously.



No marxists are extremely critical of liberals for the reasons you are demonstrating.

Marxists do not try to hijack the liberal label idk what you are talking about.



This places you center-right at best, just plain conservative otherwise. the people on this forum are far-far-right.

You are confusing progressivism with multiculturalism or something i don't even know.




Conservatives are more fundamentalist about their own way of life and seek to preserve that way of life and F everyone else.

Libertarians are far more idealistic but also stupider because they think Ayn Rand was an actual philosopher. However, they do tend to recognize the unholy marriage between government and corporations, even though they see it because they are trying to save capitalism.



Right. keep reading with an open mind.

A simple question, to exactly determine your perspective, since you call me center-right while others have called me a raving liberal. Tell me how you'd rank the follwing (as either socialist, far left, left, center left, centrist, center-right, right wing, far right, libertarian):

Theodore Roosevelt
Franklin Roosevelt
Harry S Truman
Dwight Eisenhower
Lyndon Johnson
Richard Nixon

Rockntractor
03-01-2011, 11:23 PM
A simple question, to exactly determine your perspective, since you call me center-right while others have called me a raving liberal. Tell me how you'd rank the follwing (as either socialist, far left, left, center left, centrist, center-right, right wing, far right, libertarian):

Theodore Roosevelt
Franklin Roosevelt
Harry S Truman
Dwight Eisenhower
Lyndon Johnson
Richard Nixon

All left of center. Truman had more common sense than the rest.
Eisenhower probably center.

MrsSmith
03-01-2011, 11:23 PM
Of course, all these claims are bullshit - to my knowledge there isn't any real credible research that claims to have good measures of the charitable giving of non-theists or secularists. Your fuzzy quantifiers "far more" and "far less" are bad attempts to hide that lack of knowledge. You don't know... nobody does, yet. Christians and Christian organizations, of course, make their best efforts to record their contributions in the name of Christianity - secularists usually arent giving in the name of secularism.

And the other flip-side that I've heard raised on this point, is that environments where there are high social pressures to participate in charitable giving, such as churches and the like, may actually make people worse off - because many people may end up giving beyond their means in order to conform to the group.

And its not even clear that charitable giving is an optimal path to a better society - resources may be better spent elsewhere and produce more prosperity - as every red blooded capitalist here should know. So using charitable giving as some sort of litmus test for personal righteousness and goodness is crap.

In any case, there is no real accurate tally for secularists or non-theists, so your points are simply self-serving falsehoods.



Way to sneak abortion in there, as if its just a given that your theological position on the matter is the truth - but good for bringing it up - its one glaring issue where I think it can be demonstrated that religious belief causes tremendous harm and oppression.Actually, there are quite good studies that prove that the conservatives give more than liberals, and conservative Christians give the most. One of those books you don't want to waste your time reading is "Who Really Cares."

Aside from that, it is impossible to prove that Christian religious belief causes tremendous harm and oppression because it's not true. :D

MrsSmith
03-01-2011, 11:26 PM
Sorry, I find it pretty disingenuous when some make comments about my "lock on truth", while themselves being members of institutions which are, quite frankly, THE world leaders in the dubious "locks on truth" department.. or while I'm in a back and forth with a lady (aka MrsSmith) who at the drop of a hat will assert that to disagree with her on certain things, is to literally disagree with the creator of the universe and that's all there is to it (without a single drop of self-doubt).

At least I've read His book. :p

wilbur
03-01-2011, 11:40 PM
Actually, there are quite good studies that prove that the conservatives give more than liberals, and conservative Christians give the most. One of those books you don't want to waste your time reading is "Who Really Cares."


Yep - already knew you were pulling your info from that book (sooo predictable) - my criticisms were devised with that assumption in mind.



Aside from that, it is impossible to prove that Christian religious belief causes tremendous harm and oppression because it's not true. :D

Since you like to bring up the communist regimes, its only fair that we mention the holocaust, which was in large part, possible because of Christianity (more specifically, Lutheran anti-semitism). There you go, there's one notable example of Christianity causing harm and oppression. I await your retraction.

Rockntractor
03-01-2011, 11:45 PM
Y



Since you like to bring up the communist regimes, its only fair that we mention the holocaust, which was in large part, possible because of Christianity (more specifically, Lutheran anti-semitism). There you go!

I am sure Dietrich Bonhoeffer would beg to differ with you.

txradioguy
03-01-2011, 11:54 PM
It's just the label of progressive or liberal gets lumped in with that of communist;

That's because in 2011 their goals politically for this country are one in the same.

The difference between you and Wee Wee is that he's more strident in his desires.

RobJohnson
03-02-2011, 12:04 AM
You are just a trained socialist tool sent here here to disrupt and inject progressive/communist talking points.
Unfortunately we are a small board so they aren't going to waste one of the smart ones on us.:(


LOL :D

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-02-2011, 12:06 AM
That's because in 2011 their goals politically for this country are one in the same.

The difference between you and Wee Wee is that he's more strident in his desires.

No, actually, there's a vast field of differences between me and Wee.
He has a problem with capitalism and the western way of life and believes in totally impossible utopian soccialistic dreams. I don't. I love our way of life and wouldn't trade it for any other way in the world. I also have no problem with capitalism. He does, and wants communism in.

Personally at this point I'd be happy with the status quo as it was in 2008. Hell, I'd be happy if it was 1972 rather than 2011 in some ways.

RobJohnson
03-02-2011, 12:12 AM
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/2007-06-05_atheists_dont_exist.jpg

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-02-2011, 12:19 AM
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/2007-06-05_atheists_dont_exist.jpg

:p:D

Adam Wood
03-02-2011, 07:50 AM
Since you like to bring up the communist regimes, its only fair that we mention the holocaust, which was in large part, possible because of Christianity (more specifically, Lutheran anti-semitism). There you go, there's one notable example of Christianity causing harm and oppression. I await your retraction.Christianity had absolutely nothing to do with The Holocaust. Anti-Semitism has no place in Christianity, as Christians are directed specifically to love our Jewish bretheren.

What The Holocaust did have to do with, though, was Leftism. Once again, Leftist policies of government intervention killed millions of people. Hardly the first time, and certainly not the last.



And before you try to deny it, yes, the Nazis were Leftists. And no, it's pointless to try to claim otherwise, because you'll just be busy denying facts.

wilbur
03-02-2011, 08:30 AM
Christianity had absolutely nothing to do with The Holocaust. Anti-Semitism has no place in Christianity, as Christians are directed specifically to love our Jewish bretheren.


Anti-semitism is a strong tradition in Christian history - its only recently that it's been replaced more or less with positive attitudes toward Jews. Historically, its been as or more severe than Muslim anti-semitism. The guy who literally started the Protestant reformation wrote a book called "On the Jews and their Lies". Guess where he was from? Here's a hint: A few centuries later, this country tried to exterminate the Jews. Coincidence? Doubtful.

In fact, here's the first paragraph of the text (written by the guy who shaped Christian history forever - not only in Germany, but the entire world):


I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that those miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews and who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.

txradioguy
03-02-2011, 08:33 AM
No, actually, there's a vast field of differences between me and Wee.
He has a problem with capitalism and the western way of life and believes in totally impossible utopian soccialistic dreams. I don't. I love our way of life and wouldn't trade it for any other way in the world. I also have no problem with capitalism. He does, and wants communism in.

They you aren't the Liberal you claim. If you haven't noticed lately the left is engaged in a class and legislative warfare against Capitalism.


Personally at this point I'd be happy with the status quo as it was in 2008. Hell, I'd be happy if it was 1972 rather than 2011 in some ways.

Yeah I can see some advantages to that.

AmPat
03-02-2011, 09:05 AM
Anti-semitism is a strong tradition in Christian history - its only recently that it's been replaced more or less with positive attitudes toward Jews. Historically, its been as or more severe than Muslim anti-semitism. The guy who literally started the Protestant reformation wrote a book called "On the Jews and their Lies". Guess where he was from? Here's a hint: A few centuries later, this country tried to exterminate the Jews. Coincidence? Doubtful.

In fact, here's the first paragraph of the text (written by the guy who shaped Christian history forever - not only in Germany, but the entire world):
It is not "a strong tradition in Christianity" as you claim. Antisemitism has no place in Christianity. There were historic events that have been a stain on Christianity but it is not a Christian doctrine. Nobody that is a true Christian would support Luther's anti-Jewish beliefs today.

noonwitch
03-02-2011, 09:23 AM
Since you like to bring up the communist regimes, its only fair that we mention the holocaust, which was in large part, possible because of Christianity (more specifically, Lutheran anti-semitism). There you go, there's one notable example of Christianity causing harm and oppression. I await your retraction.




Christianity didn't cause the Holocaust. Hitler was not a Christian. He was an occultist and an atheist. He knew how to play weak Christians, though, and how to talk the talk for political benefit.


There is a long history of anti-semitism in Europe, both within and without the church. Since for a good part of the first 1500 years of Christendom church and state were inseparable, it's difficult to refute that it was doctrine for a long time that 1. the jewish race was collectively responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus and 2. Christians replaced jews as God's favorite people due to Jesus (who, incidentally, was a jew). Long before Hitler, there were pograms against jews, discrimination against jews and exclusion of jews from various trades and services. Religion was used to justify this-the words of Paul at many times can be twisted to glean an anti-semitic sentiment, and the same can be said of the Gospel of John's repeated use of the term "the jews" when referring to the crowd that rejected Jesus in favor of Barrabas.

FBIGuy
03-02-2011, 09:27 AM
It is not "a strong tradition in Christianity" as you claim. Antisemitism has no place in Christianity. There were historic events that have been a stain on Christianity but it is not a Christian doctrine. Nobody that is a true Christian would support Luther's anti-Jewish beliefs today.

There is a strong atheist tradition in most atheist lead governments of murdering millions of people for no particular reason.

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 09:32 AM
It is not "a strong tradition in Christianity" as you claim. Antisemitism has no place in Christianity. There were historic events that have been a stain on Christianity but it is not a Christian doctrine. Nobody that is a true Christian would support Luther's anti-Jewish beliefs today.

There are certain passages in the New Testament which are theologically anti-semitic and they formed the foundation for much persecution.

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 09:35 AM
There is a strong atheist tradition in most atheist lead governments of murdering millions of people for no particular reason.

Atheism has no content. There is no aspect of atheism which encourages people to commit atrocities.

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 09:37 AM
Christianity didn't cause the Holocaust. Hitler was not a Christian. He was an occultist and an atheist. He knew how to play weak Christians, though, and how to talk the talk for political benefit.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

Rockntractor
03-02-2011, 09:38 AM
There are certain passages in the New Testament which are theologically anti-semitic and they formed the foundation for much persecution.

For a person that can't distinguish between a mistake and a lie you are in way over your head here.
Why don't you just be content to read and lick your monitor.

FBIGuy
03-02-2011, 09:51 AM
Atheism has no content. There is no aspect of atheism which enourages people to commit atrocities.

Which is precisely why it has no qualms with murdering millions of people for no particular reason. There is no aspect of atheism that can be pointed to that encourages people not to commit atrocities. Atheism is an anything goes system of belief where the only source of right and wrong is the philosophy of "might makes right".

FlaGator
03-02-2011, 09:59 AM
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

So if I claim to be an African American that means that I am an African American. Interesting... This would make you a very gullible person since you deem Hilter a Christian because he claims to be one. You apparently lack discernment. This does explain your views on AGW.

Adam Wood
03-02-2011, 10:02 AM
Anti-semitism is a strong tradition in Christian history - its only recently that it's been replaced more or less with positive attitudes toward Jews. Historically, its been as or more severe than Muslim anti-semitism. The guy who literally started the Protestant reformation wrote a book called "On the Jews and their Lies". Guess where he was from? Here's a hint: A few centuries later, this country tried to exterminate the Jews. Coincidence? Doubtful.

In fact, here's the first paragraph of the text (written by the guy who shaped Christian history forever - not only in Germany, but the entire world):Horseshit. Spoken like a true militant evangelical atheist who, as usual, does not know his ass from a hole in the ground.

The New Testament is quite clear that Christians are to love and embrace Jews. People who engage in blood libel (which is most frequently the basis for anti-Semitism practiced by so-called "Christians") are very specifically sinning against the teachings of Jesus (who, by the way, was a Jewish guy). For you to claim that anti-Semitism is some sort of "tradition" is just a bald-faced lie, which is far from uncommon amongst the militant evangelical atheist set, mostly because they are Leftists, and Leftists have to lie in order to maintain their failed ideology.

Have some people professing to be Christians engaged in anti-Semitism? Yep. Lots of folks, actually. Were they acting as Christians when they did so? Nope. Not in the least. There is no place for anti-Semitism in Christianity.

Epic, colossal FAIL. Again. How not surprising.

FBIGuy
03-02-2011, 10:08 AM
Horseshit. Spoken like a true militant evangelical atheist who, as usual, does not know his ass from a hole in the ground.

The New Testament is quite clear that Christians are to love and embrace Jews. People who engage in blood libel (which is most frequently the basis for anti-Semitism practiced by so-called "Christians") are very specifically sinning against the teachings of Jesus (who, by the way, was a Jewish guy). For you to claim that anti-Semitism is some sort of "tradition" is just a bald-faced lie, which is far from uncommon amongst the militant evangelical atheist set, mostly because they are Leftists, and Leftists have to lie in order to maintain their failed ideology.

Have some people professing to be Christians engaged in anti-Semitism? Yep. Lots of folks, actually. Were they acting as Christians when they did so? Nope. Not in the least. There is no place for anti-Semitism in Christianity.

Epic, colossal FAIL. Again. How not surprising.

I'm not all that well versed in the bible, but I do not recall anything anti-semitic in casual reading of the new testament. I do suppose that anyone can misinterpret something and claim it means something that it doesn't and I'm sure there are people who will believe the misinterpretation because it fits in with their previous beliefs and desires.

Odysseus
03-02-2011, 10:15 AM
Yes George Soros, Raul Castro, Hugo Chavez and the dead preserved body of Comrade Lenin all meet up with me once a month to discuss my new talking points and pay me with giant burlap sacks filled with marijuana and some American flags to burn
You just gave me an idea for American flag rolling papers, so that proglodytes can indulge their two favorite activities simultaneously.

you're not a liberal or a progressive.

That's high praise indeed.

Arroyo_Doble
03-02-2011, 10:22 AM
You just gave me an idea for American flag rolling papers ...

That's not a bad idea. Smoking, and protest, has ballooned throughout the world. You could have a whole series of flags and set up an internet business.

Want to make your views known about the Islamic Republic of Iran while slowly killing yourself? We got the product for you!

Too cool.

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 10:24 AM
Which is precisely why it has no qualms with murdering millions of people for no particular reason. There is no aspect of atheism that can be pointed to that encourages people not to commit atrocities. Atheism is an anything goes system of belief where the only source of right and wrong is the philosophy of "might makes right".

Atheism is not a belief system. Blaming atheism for atrocities makes about as much sense as blaming disbelief in faeries for them, which is to say it makes no sense at all.

wilbur
03-02-2011, 10:53 AM
Which is precisely why it has no qualms with murdering millions of people for no particular reason. There is no aspect of atheism that can be pointed to that encourages people not to commit atrocities. Atheism is an anything goes system of belief where the only source of right and wrong is the philosophy of "might makes right".

There is no aspect of disbelief in unicorns that can be pointed to that encourages people not to commit atrocities.

Speaking of which, there is no aspect of bare theism either, which can be pointed to that encourages people not to commit atrocities.

But so what?

Adam Wood
03-02-2011, 11:06 AM
Atheism is not a belief system. Yes, it is. No matter how much you try to deny it, it most definitely is a belief system. If it were not a belief system, you wouldn't spend the amount of time and energy that you do evangelizing so much about it.

wilbur
03-02-2011, 11:08 AM
Horseshit. Spoken like a true militant evangelical atheist who, as usual, does not know his ass from a hole in the ground.

The New Testament is quite clear that Christians are to love and embrace Jews. People who engage in blood libel (which is most frequently the basis for anti-Semitism practiced by so-called "Christians") are very specifically sinning against the teachings of Jesus (who, by the way, was a Jewish guy). For you to claim that anti-Semitism is some sort of "tradition" is just a bald-faced lie, which is far from uncommon amongst the militant evangelical atheist set, mostly because they are Leftists, and Leftists have to lie in order to maintain their failed ideology.

Have some people professing to be Christians engaged in anti-Semitism? Yep. Lots of folks, actually. Were they acting as Christians when they did so? Nope. Not in the least. There is no place for anti-Semitism in Christianity.

Epic, colossal FAIL. Again. How not surprising.

Sorry bud... What else can a tradition be made, other than regular practices engaged in by individuals or groups of people? Not only that, Christian anti-semitism expressed in polemics throughout the ages was often professed in the name of Christianity, and was clearly derived from the scriptures. In other words, there is a clear direct line from scriptures to Christian tradition to anti-semitism. Just because you think you have a more evolved contemporary understanding of the Bible, you can't deny the role of scripture in your ancestor's anti-semitic beliefs and practices. Anti-semitism was strong all throughout Christian tradition, until the last 100 years or so. Obviously the scriptures arent quite so clear on the matter, if it took 1900 years for it to finally dawn on people that the "Christ killers", as they used to say, can be good people too.

If you guys are going to play the 'blame the belief system/worldview for atrocities' game, you can't change the rules for your own team.

RobJohnson
03-02-2011, 12:00 PM
There is no aspect of disbelief in unicorns.......

But science can prove unicorns do not exist. :)


http://www.muiczone.com/videos/covers/tobeanathiest.jpg

txradioguy
03-02-2011, 12:11 PM
Atheism has no content. There is no aspect of atheism which enourages people to commit atrocities.

No religion in your life...no moral compass to guide to what is right and what is wrong.

No moral compass...you can do anything you want...justify it and not feel guilty about doing it.

Anything and everything can then be justified depending on who is doing it.. and seem completely natural or normal.

wilbur
03-02-2011, 12:19 PM
[QUOTE=RobJohnson;381409]But science can prove unicorns do not exist. :)


No, it really can't!

Wei Wu Wei
03-02-2011, 12:42 PM
No religion in your life...no moral compass to guide to what is right and what is wrong.

This is where you went wrong.

Some people use their own interpretation of religious law to shape their morality but that is not the only way to do it.

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 12:45 PM
No religion in your life...no moral compass to guide to what is right and what is wrong.

No moral compass...you can do anything you want...justify it and not feel guilty about doing it.

Anything and everything can then be justified depending on who is doing it.. and seem completely natural or normal.

Astrology provides no moral compass. Is a person who doubts astrology more likely to commit atrocities than one who believes in it? Of course not. The same goes for religion.

txradioguy
03-02-2011, 01:07 PM
Some people use their own interpretation of religious law to shape their morality but that is not the only way to do it.

And those people are like the Fred Phelps and David Koresh's of the world.

They are extremists that are shunned by the majority.

txradioguy
03-02-2011, 01:10 PM
Astrology provides no moral compass. Is a person who doubts astrology more likely to commit atrocities than one who believes in it? Of course not. The same goes for religion.

You have to be a real mental contortionist to make that kind if twisted idiotic connection between your horoscope and religion.

But then again given your general lack of knowledge of religion and your naked hatred there of...it's to be expected.

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 01:18 PM
You have to be a real mental contortionist to make that kind if twisted idiotic connection between your horoscope and religion.

But then again given your general lack of knowledge of religion and your naked hatred there of...it's to be expected.

You suggested that because atheism provides no moral guidance it leads to bad behavior. If that's true then why doesn't the same logic apply to not believing in astrology?

Gingersnap
03-02-2011, 01:34 PM
You suggested that because atheism provides no moral guidance it leads to bad behavior. If that's true then why doesn't the same logic apply to not believing in astrology?

Probably because Astrology is a descriptive effort. For believers, it explains personalty traits, emotional/relationship effects, and good or bad luck. Astrology has no moral implications or behavioral edicts. There is no way to use behavior in Astrology to influence justice, reward social virtue, or punish social sin. Being the best Taurus you can be doesn't really translate into being liked, admired, shunned, respected, or condemned. :rolleyes:

Adam Wood
03-02-2011, 01:35 PM
Sorry bud... What else can a tradition be made, other than regular practices engaged in by individuals or groups of people? Not only that, Christian anti-semitism expressed in polemics throughout the ages was often professed in the name of Christianity, and was clearly derived from the scriptures. In other words, there is a clear direct line from scriptures to Christian tradition to anti-semitism. Just because you think you have a more evolved contemporary understanding of the Bible, you can't deny the role of scripture in your ancestor's anti-semitic beliefs and practices. Anti-semitism was strong all throughout Christian tradition, until the last 100 years or so. Obviously the scriptures arent quite so clear on the matter, if it took 1900 years for it to finally dawn on people that the "Christ killers", as they used to say, can be good people too.

If you guys are going to play the 'blame the belief system/worldview for atrocities' game, you can't change the rules for your own team.More Leftist historical revisionism. How typical.

Odysseus
03-02-2011, 01:42 PM
That's not a bad idea. Smoking, and protest, has ballooned throughout the world. You could have a whole series of flags and set up an internet business.

Want to make your views known about the Islamic Republic of Iran while slowly killing yourself? We got the product for you!

Too cool.
The Iranians have a different defintion of getting stoned, so you may not want to go there, especially since it's still a relatively slow death. Besides, the only flag that you can burn in public without getting jailed is the US flag (try burning an Iranian flag in Tehran and see what happens to you). This sounds like something that would go over very well in High Times or Mother Jones, or the Nation. The only problem is that I'd be making money off of something that is really despicable, the desecration of the American flag and the addictions of hippies. We need someone without a conscience to act as the middle man. Oh, Wilbur... :D

You suggested that because atheism provides no moral guidance it leads to bad behavior. If that's true then why doesn't the same logic apply to not believing in astrology?

Atheism, as opposed to agnosticism, is the profession of a lack of belief in anything, as opposed to nihilism, which is the belief in nothing. Both are problematical, in that someone who doesn't stand for something will eventually fall for anything.

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 01:56 PM
Probably because Astrology is a descriptive effort. For believers, it explains personalty traits, emotional/relationship effects, and good or bad luck. Astrology has no moral implications or behavioral edicts. There is no way to use behavior in Astrology to influence justice, reward social virtue, or punish social sin. Being the best Taurus you can be doesn't really translate into being liked, admired, shunned, respected, or condemned. :rolleyes:

We're talking about what not believing in astrology leads to. If the argument is that atheism is bad because it lacks a moral content then why doesn't the same logic hold in regard to disbelief of astrology?

wilbur
03-02-2011, 01:56 PM
Probably because Astrology is a descriptive effort. For believers, it explains personalty traits, emotional/relationship effects, and good or bad luck. Astrology has no moral implications or behavioral edicts. There is no way to use behavior in Astrology to influence justice, reward social virtue, or punish social sin. Being the best Taurus you can be doesn't really translate into being liked, admired, shunned, respected, or condemned. :rolleyes:

Both theism and atheism are no different, in that regard. Neither, on their own, provide moral prescriptions or behavioral edicts. Both are merely descriptive until you add some bigger world-view into the mix.

Which is why its so dumb when people start ascribing 20th century atrocities to atheism. Yep - many of them were committed by communist regimes who were atheistic - but so what? Atheism wasnt their worldview - and atheism was neither necessary or sufficient to generate those extreme statist worldviews. The belief in a some sort of god (aka theism) is/was perfectly compatible with communism and atrocity. Take a look at WWW - he seems fond of communism, and he loves him some God.

Most western atheists today seem to be either some form humanist or metaphysical naturalist - neither of which resemble the types of worldviews that led to soviet gulags.

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 02:01 PM
Atheism, as opposed to agnosticism, is the profession of a lack of belief in anything, as opposed to nihilism, which is the belief in nothing.

I believe in math. I believe in the universe. So much for your theory.


[I]Both are problematical, in that someone who doesn't stand for something will eventually fall for anything.[I]

I don't believe in clichés... or at least not that one. Yawn.

txradioguy
03-02-2011, 02:07 PM
Atheism wasnt their worldview - and atheism was neither necessary or sufficient to generate those extreme statist worldviews.

They why did they outlaw religion?

Their view was that there was no higher power than "the state"

You take the word of God away from the people...substitute it with the word of the State and anything goes.

You're then empowered to make it up as you go...and justify any and all atrocities as something that the "State" needed to do for the "people".

Religion gives people hope and something greater than any government to believe in.

In Communist theory nothing is greater than the State therefore there can be no religion for people to put heir faith into.

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 02:25 PM
They why did they outlaw religion?

Their view was that there was no higher power than "the state"

You take the word of God away from the people...substitute it with the word of the State and anything goes.

You're then empowered to make it up as you go...and justify any and all atrocities as something that the "State" needed to do for the "people".

Religion gives people hope and something greater than any government to believe in.

In Communist theory nothing is greater than the State therefore there can be no religion for people to put heir faith into.

Replacing God with state is not atheism. That's just more religion.

FBIGuy
03-02-2011, 02:28 PM
Atheism is not a belief system. Blaming atheism for atrocities makes about as much sense as blaming disbelief in faeries for them, which is to say it makes no sense at all.


There is no aspect of disbelief in unicorns that can be pointed to that encourages people not to commit atrocities.

Speaking of which, there is no aspect of bare theism either, which can be pointed to that encourages people not to commit atrocities.

But so what?

What a surprise, both of you jokers tossed out the same straw man argument. This doesn't surprise me in the least. You both seem very limited in getting beyond group think. Ok gentlemen, listen up. If tomorrow the existence of unicorns or faeries was proven it wouldn't change anyone's behavior one bit. Now if they proved that god existed then the good money is on a lot of people's behavior changing. Maybe even yours but I doubt it. I've watched how you cling to global warming and you two couldn't get on the right side of an argument to save your moms' lives.

Someone doesn't find it morally acceptable to kill 30 million people because he doesn't believe in faeries but there are atheists who, because they had no belief in a universal morality to restrain them, thought it was just a dandy idea to kill everyone in sight. Now if you can demonstrate for me a case where someone who did something completely immoral because he didn't believe in unicorns or faeries then I'll concede the point to you.

Atheism is a belief system. It's stands in contrast to a belief system that espouses the existence of god. Since the existence of god is debatable then you "believe" that god doesn't exist. Your "belief" that god doesn't exist means you are not constrained by morals that those who believe are subject to but it doesn't imply that you have no characteristics that define you as atheists.

By saying you are an atheist, you are in effect saying that you will not be held to the same behavior rules that believers do. But being an atheist does have some elements that distinguish you from those who do believe. You have to adopt some standard of behavior and that is an element of being an atheist. No common moral code means you have to find one. You may not have a standard of credo of beliefs to define you as a group but what your belief system does it is forces you to establish your own set of behavior regulations and that is common to all atheists.

As or me, I'm agnostic. I don't necessarily believe but I don't disbelieve. I just don't know. I what I am is more flexible in my thought than you. I have nothing riding on being right or wrong except where the afterlife is concerned. If there is one them I'm probably fucked. But if they find out tomorrow that god really does exist I'll have no ego involved to keep me admitting that I was wrong and jumping on board to live however this god wants me to.

FlaGator
03-02-2011, 02:37 PM
Sorry bud... What else can a tradition be made, other than regular practices engaged in by individuals or groups of people? Not only that, Christian anti-semitism expressed in polemics throughout the ages was often professed in the name of Christianity, and was clearly derived from the scriptures. In other words, there is a clear direct line from scriptures to Christian tradition to anti-semitism. Just because you think you have a more evolved contemporary understanding of the Bible, you can't deny the role of scripture in your ancestor's anti-semitic beliefs and practices. Anti-semitism was strong all throughout Christian tradition, until the last 100 years or so. Obviously the scriptures arent quite so clear on the matter, if it took 1900 years for it to finally dawn on people that the "Christ killers", as they used to say, can be good people too.

If you guys are going to play the 'blame the belief system/worldview for atrocities' game, you can't change the rules for your own team.

Perhaps you'd like to produce these scriptures that encourage anti-semitism?

You really are over you head when you start talking about Christianty. You merely regurgitate the misconceptions that you read in books by you atheist heroes. I read those books too.

Odysseus
03-02-2011, 02:47 PM
I believe in math. I believe in the universe. So much for your theory.
But the universe has many cosmological theories as to its nature. Which one do you believe?

I don't believe in clichés... or at least not that one. Yawn.
You are a walking cliche.

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 02:47 PM
Someone doesn't find it morally acceptable to kill 30 million people because he doesn't believe in faeries but there are atheists who, because they had no belief in a universal morality to restrain them, thought it was just a dandy idea to kill everyone in sight. Now if you can demonstrate for me a case where someone who did something completely immoral because he didn't believe in unicorns or faeries then I'll concede the point to you.

That's the point. Not believing in faeries and unicorns does not lead people to bad behavior. Similarly, not believing in God does not lead people to bad behavior.


Atheism is a belief system. It's stands in contrast to a belief system that espouses the existence of god. Since the existence of god is debatable then you "believe" that god doesn't exist. Your "belief" that god doesn't exist means you are not constrained by morals that those who believe are subject to but it doesn't imply that you have no characteristics that define you as atheists.

By saying you are an atheist, you are in effect saying that you will not be held to the same behavior rules that believers do. But being an atheist does have some elements that distinguish you from those who do believe. You have to adopt some standard of behavior and that is an element of being an atheist. No common moral code means you have to find one. You may not have a standard of credo of beliefs to define you as a group but what your belief system does it is forces you to establish your own set of behavior regulations and that is common to all atheists.

Just because a person doesn't believe in the moral code cobbled together by ancient desert nomads doesn't necessarily mean that person is unconstrained by a moral code.


As or me, I'm agnostic. I don't necessarily believe but I don't disbelieve. I just don't know. I what I am is more flexible in my thought than you. I have nothing riding on being right or wrong except where the afterlife is concerned. If there is one them I'm probably fucked. But if they find out tomorrow that god really does exist I'll have no ego involved to keep me admitting that I was wrong and jumping on board to live however this god wants me to.

I don't claim to know for certain that there is no god. I don't need complete information to make a judgment. And I'll bet you're the same. For instance, when the sun goes down, you don't worry about vampires because you've made a judgment about their existence-- that is, you've made a reasonable (albeit imperfect) judgment that they don't exist. Why not make the same determination about God? In other words, why not apply to the question of God the logic which leads you to consider vampires a myth?

Wei Wu Wei
03-02-2011, 03:07 PM
But the universe has many cosmological theories as to its nature. Which one do you believe?

Do you have to believe one?

wilbur
03-02-2011, 03:09 PM
FBIGuy, your problem is simple.

Theism is not Christianity. Theism is simply the belief in a God. It doesn't specify who that God is or what God values, or whether he has any particular moral commands for you, or even whether its moral to follow his commands even if he did.

Atheism is not moral nihilism. It similarly doesn't specify what, if any, moral values exist or don't exist.

wilbur
03-02-2011, 03:11 PM
Perhaps you'd like to produce these scriptures that encourage anti-semitism?

You really are over you head when you start talking about Christianty. You merely regurgitate the misconceptions that you read in books by you atheist heroes. I read those books too.

You're really over your head when you actually try to construct sentences. You should stop.

Odysseus
03-02-2011, 03:46 PM
Do you have to believe one?

As opposed to what?

txradioguy
03-02-2011, 04:23 PM
You're really over your head when you actually try to construct sentences. You should stop.

This s wilbur speak for "I can't produce the Scriptures to back up what I'm talking about".


Everyone wave goodbye to rubliw...this is the part of the discussion where he makes his exit.

Arroyo_Doble
03-02-2011, 04:43 PM
Matthew 27:25

noonwitch
03-02-2011, 04:49 PM
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)



I don't have the exact Hitler quote, but he also said that he wished the German people were of the Muhammedan faith, because members of that faith are less likely to question orders. I read the quote in Eric Metaxas' biography of Bonhoeffer.

His quotes supporting Christian faith are part of his talking the talk to deceive people into thinking he was a Christian. Jim Jones quoted the Bible to his followers, and I don't think anyone would claim he was a Christian unless that person had a real anti-Christian agenda.

Adam Wood
03-02-2011, 05:02 PM
I don't have the exact Hitler quote, but he also said that he wished the German people were of the Muhammedan faith, because members of that faith are less likely to question orders. I read the quote in Eric Metaxas' biography of Bonhoeffer.

His quotes supporting Christian faith are part of his talking the talk to deceive people into thinking he was a Christian. Jim Jones quoted the Bible to his followers, and I don't think anyone would claim he was a Christian unless that person had a real anti-Christian agenda.TA DA! There you have it.

txradioguy
03-02-2011, 05:14 PM
Matthew 27:25

You're kidding right?

You...you must be joking cause this in no way shows anti-Semetism in the bible.

You're an idiot. Well and truly a fucking moron.


Matthew 27:25 says, “Then the people as a whole answered, ‘His blood be on us and on our children!’ ” Does this verse imply that all Jews are perpetually and universally responsible for Christ’s death?

If Matthew’s account is accurate—and there is powerful textual and historical evidence that it is,1 this Jewish mob did not and could not speak in behalf of all Jewish people. As verse 20 says, “Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus.” This crowd was not a ground swell movement, but rather a mob stirred up by religious leaders who envied Jesus (27:18 ).

The rest of the New Testament record combines with history to show that this mob didn’t represent all of the Jews in Israel. It certainly didn’t represent the large number of Jews who admired Jesus, followed Him, and joined the church following His death and resurrection. For this reason alone, it is obvious that all Jews weren’t—and aren’t—uniquely responsible for Jesus’ death. At the same time, while the mob’s collective oath didn’t represent all Jews, it has had implications for the Jewish nation as a whole and for people of all nations.

A high view of scriptural authority makes it impossible to assume that this verse is an “anti-Semitic” addition added by later Christian editors with “an axe to grind,”2 or that the declaration by the mob is an insignificant detail of the account.3 From an overall biblical perspective, the mob’s rejection of Christ represents much more than the historically insignificant action of a small group of conspirators. It symbolizes the culmination of Israel’s rejection of God and His prophets. And Israel, in turn, represents the way people of all nations are inclined to reject the light of God’s self-disclosure (Romans 1:18-23).


http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx?id=45922

You're absolutely pathetic.

Arroyo_Doble
03-02-2011, 05:16 PM
You're kidding right?

Pretty much.

txradioguy
03-02-2011, 05:18 PM
Pretty much.

You have to be. Because no one could point to that scripture with a straight face and claim it shows anti-Semetism.

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 05:18 PM
I don't have the exact Hitler quote, but he also said that he wished the German people were of the Muhammedan faith, because members of that faith are less likely to question orders. I read the quote in Eric Metaxas' biography of Bonhoeffer.

His quotes supporting Christian faith are part of his talking the talk to deceive people into thinking he was a Christian. Jim Jones quoted the Bible to his followers, and I don't think anyone would claim he was a Christian unless that person had a real anti-Christian agenda.

Whether you realize it or not, what you've admitted here is that Adolf Hitler's executioners (the people who carried out his dirty work) were Christian. You would have been better off simply admitting that Hitler was Christian and leaving it at that.

txradioguy
03-02-2011, 05:20 PM
Whether you realize it or not, what you've admitted here is that Adolf Hitler's executioners (the people who carried out his dirty work) were Christian. You would have been better off simply admitting that Hitler was Christian and leaving it at that.


You just don't know when to STFU and admit you don't know what the hell you're talking about do you?

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 05:22 PM
Here is a good one...


1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 (King James Version)

14For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

15Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

16Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

I await the pretzel logic which explains how a passage which describes Jews as being displeasing to God and contrary to all men is not anti-semitic!

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 05:23 PM
You just don't know when to STFU and admit you don't know what the hell you're talking about do you?

Well, you're half right.

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 05:28 PM
One more:


John 8:44-49 (King James Version)


44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

48Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

That's some hardcore hatin'.

Adam Wood
03-02-2011, 05:32 PM
Whether you realize it or not, what you've admitted here is that Adolf Hitler's executioners (the people who carried out his dirty work) were Christian. You would have been better off simply admitting that Hitler was Christian and leaving it at that.Wow. You're just stuffed to the gills with don't know what the fuck you're talking about, aren't you?

That's about the stupidest thing I think I've ever seen you say, and that's quite a feat. So, because Adolf Hitler passed himself off as a Christian to Germans in order to get into power, that automatically means that Josef Mengele was a devout Christian, apparently acting in the name of Christ. Because, you know, torturing little Jewish girls by injecting dye into their eyes and blinding them is one of those things Jesus taught people to do. It's right in there with the Loaves and the Fishes and healing the lame.



Holy shit, you're stupid. I mean, this is just a special kind of stupid.

Novaheart
03-02-2011, 05:37 PM
Wow. You're just stuffed to the gills with don't know what the fuck you're talking about, aren't you?

That's about the stupidest thing I think I've ever seen you say, and that's quite a feat. So, because Adolf Hitler passed himself off as a Christian to Germans in order to get into power, that automatically means that Josef Mengele was a devout Christian, apparently acting in the name of Christ. Because, you know, torturing little Jewish girls by injecting dye into their eyes and blinding them is one of those things Jesus taught people to do. It's right in there with the Loaves and the Fishes and healing the lame.



Holy shit, you're stupid. I mean, this is just a special kind of stupid.

What did Hitler and Megele consider themselves to be?

I ask because in the past it seems that we analyze and evaluate whether or not someone was a Christian, but in the present we're expected to take their word for it.

AmPat
03-02-2011, 05:49 PM
There are certain passages in the New Testament which are theologically anti-semitic and they formed the foundation for much persecution.

List them.:rolleyes:

AmPat
03-02-2011, 05:51 PM
So if I claim to be an African American that means that I am an African American. Interesting... This would make you a very gullible person since you deem Hilter a Christian because he claims to be one. You apparently lack discernment. This does explain your views on AGW.

Reminds me of the saying: Claiming to be a Christian makes you no more a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.

Adam Wood
03-02-2011, 05:53 PM
What did Hitler and Megele consider themselves to be?

I ask because in the past it seems that we analyze and evaluate whether or not someone was a Christian, but in the present we're expected to take their word for it.I neither know nor care what they considered themselves to be. Any idiot with one eye and a grain of sense can easily analyze the actions of either man and know that they most assuredly were not in any way following the teachings of Christ, and indeed were intentionally flaunting those teachings.

FlaGator
03-02-2011, 07:44 PM
This s wilbur speak for "I can't produce the Scriptures to back up what I'm talking about".


Everyone wave goodbye to rubliw...this is the part of the discussion where he makes his exit.

I translate this as wilbur speak for 'you proved I don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about so I will criticize you instead.'

He makes me look better at this than I am.

FlaGator
03-02-2011, 07:55 PM
Here is a good one...
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 (King James Version)

14For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

15Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

16Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.I await the pretzel logic which explains how a passage which describes Jews as being displeasing to God and contrary to all men is not anti-semitic!

Gosh you're simple. What is being stated here is that the fact that the Jews who, being encouraged by the temple elders, who called for the death of Jesus are responsible for His death and since in rejecting Jesus the rejected God then it is appropriate to state that God is displeased with them. However, what this doesn't show is that the New Testament authors encouraged the gentiles and converted used to persecute the Jews are to hated them.

Am I being anti science when I say that the misfits running the global warming scam are responsible for leading people astray? No, I am just stating my opinion about certain scientists who I believe to be dishonest.

See, no pretzel logic.

Also you have failed to show anti-antisemitism. I'm not a homophobe just because I find homosexuality immoral. Neither am I anti-immigration just because I think that immigrants should go through the proper legal channels when coming to live in America.

FlaGator
03-02-2011, 08:01 PM
One more:

John 8:44-49 (King James Version)


44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

48Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.That's some hardcore hatin'.

No, that is a statement of fact. You are a child of Satan as I was a child of Satan but I don't hate you when I call you that. It gives me reason to pray for you. How is that hating when I state what I know to be true and it leads me to pray for you and wish good things upon you?

Rockntractor
03-02-2011, 08:04 PM
No, that is a statement of fact. You are a child of Satan as I was a child of Satan but I don't hate you when I call you that. It gives me reason to pray for you. How is that hating when I state what I know to be true and it leads me to pray for you and wish good things upon you?

If you do ever convince Wilbur and Hootie is there anyway you can get them to sign something that says they won't argue for our side?:confused:

FlaGator
03-02-2011, 08:12 PM
What did Hitler and Megele consider themselves to be?

I ask because in the past it seems that we analyze and evaluate whether or not someone was a Christian, but in the present we're expected to take their word for it.

Let's ask Jesus. He might have an answer.


Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."
John 14:21

If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
John 14:10

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
John 13:34-35

Just saying that one is a Christian does not make one a Christian. Christ even has a warning from those who say they are but who don't follow his commands.



"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Matthew 7:21-23

FlaGator
03-02-2011, 08:13 PM
If you do ever convince Wilbur and Hootie is there anyway you can get them to sign something that says they won't argue for our side?:confused:

I suspect that they both might make fine apologists once they were able to grasp the truth.

What is impossible with man is possible with God.

MrsSmith
03-02-2011, 08:19 PM
Hitler was such a great "christian" that he actively persecuted...Christians. There were over 700 priests and ministers cast into the same camps as the Jews.

Of course, anyone that reads Hitler's own words can see he was never a Christian. He was, as NO so handily quoted, "of (his) father the devil, and the lusts of (his) father (he did). He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

In other words, one of those very angry atheists that were the topic of this thread.

MrsSmith
03-02-2011, 08:20 PM
I suspect that they both might make fine apologists once they were able to grasp the truth.

What is impossible with man is possible with God.

Very true. But God sure has His work cut out for Him...

MrsSmith
03-02-2011, 08:26 PM
Yep - already knew you were pulling your info from that book (sooo predictable) - my criticisms were devised with that assumption in mind.



Since you like to bring up the communist regimes, its only fair that we mention the holocaust, which was in large part, possible because of Christianity (more specifically, Lutheran anti-semitism). There you go, there's one notable example of Christianity causing harm and oppression. I await your retraction.

As I said, one of those books you can't be bothered to read. It's full of facts you hate.

As for the holocaust, having had family members end up in concentration camps because they were caught smuggling Jews out of the country, I can give evidence that it was not due to any Christian anything, but to Hilter's use of propaganda and non-facts. In exactly the same way that abortion is not any Christian doing, but is pushed by the greed of the abortionists and their non-facts about human lives. Like the non-fact that human life should be unprotected until some certain stage of development. The thought patterns that allowed for the holocaust are the same ones that allow for abortion...and we all know which side of that line YOU are on. You really would have made a fanatic Hitler's youth.

MrsSmith
03-02-2011, 08:33 PM
The Jews did NOT kill Jesus, and anyone that actually reads the New Testament can clearly see that.

John 10:18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

Hitler systematically got rid of Christian leaders that told the truth. Just as today, we see many countries trying to silence Christian leaders that tell the truth about abortion and homosexuality. Hitler was the perfect liberal, positive he was god...just like some of our posters.

Rockntractor
03-02-2011, 08:57 PM
God killed Jesus, plain and simple, God executed him as full payment for our sins, past, present and future.

FlaGator
03-02-2011, 09:07 PM
The Jews did NOT kill Jesus, and anyone that actually reads the New Testament can clearly see that.

John 10:18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

Hitler systematically got rid of Christian leaders that told the truth. Just as today, we see many countries trying to silence Christian leaders that tell the truth about abortion and homosexuality. Hitler was the perfect liberal, positive he was god...just like some of our posters.

The Jews demanded His death, the Romans carried it out, but it was all ordained by God.

The Night Owl
03-02-2011, 09:39 PM
No, that is a statement of fact. You are a child of Satan as I was a child of Satan but I don't hate you when I call you that. It gives me reason to pray for you. How is that hating when I state what I know to be true and it leads me to pray for you and wish good things upon you?

Your interpretation of scripture benefits from the centuries of humanism which have shaped Christian thought on what to do about those who deny the divinity of Jesus.

Lanie
03-02-2011, 09:53 PM
I'm not sure he has one.:confused:

That's not a nice thing to say. I usually don't say that, but we're on the subject of God.

Lanie
03-02-2011, 09:55 PM
The Jews did NOT kill Jesus, and anyone that actually reads the New Testament can clearly see that.

John 10:18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

Hitler systematically got rid of Christian leaders that told the truth. Just as today, we see many countries trying to silence Christian leaders that tell the truth about abortion and homosexuality. Hitler was the perfect liberal, positive he was god...just like some of our posters.

Your comparison is ridiculously offensive. You're comparing people who will counter the anti-homosexuality and anti-abortion crowd with those who systematically murdered millions of people for being different from them. Not a comparison at all. Your comparison is disgustingly offensive.

Lanie
03-02-2011, 09:56 PM
But if you truly want to talk about persecuted Christians, why not look to the ones living in the middle east, China, and other TRULY persecutive countries toward Christians.

lacarnut
03-02-2011, 10:04 PM
Your comparison is ridiculously offensive. You're comparing people who will counter the anti-homosexuality and anti-abortion crowd with those who systematically murdered millions of people for being different from them. Not a comparison at all. Your comparison is disgustingly offensive.

Her post speaks the truth. On the other hand, I find your post lacking in reading comprehension.

Rockntractor
03-02-2011, 10:16 PM
That's not a nice thing to say. I usually don't say that, but we're on the subject of God.

I'm not talking about God, I'm talking about Wilbur.
He sold his soul and bought a half gallon of Ben & Jerry's ice cream.

FlaGator
03-02-2011, 10:24 PM
Your interpretation of scripture benefits from the centuries of humanism which have shaped Christian thought on what to do about those who deny the divinity of Jesus.

You are making an erroneous assumption. In this case, my interpretation of scripture is based on what the original church fathers wrote with in a few centuries of Christ's resurrection. Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr and the authors of the Didache (just to name a few) have done as much to influence my Christian views on what Jesus meant as anything that I've read from theologians since. Also, I think that if you just sit down and read those verses you have quoted in the context of the chapter and Gospel book that contained them you will have a better understanding of said verses and perhaps at least enough of an understanding of them not to attribute to them the false meaning that you have hung on them.

FlaGator
03-02-2011, 10:33 PM
Your comparison is ridiculously offensive. You're comparing people who will counter the anti-homosexuality and anti-abortion crowd with those who systematically murdered millions of people for being different from them. Not a comparison at all. Your comparison is disgustingly offensive.

I found nothing offensive about what she stated. The degrees of persecution are different between the two but most things start out small. Hitler did not start killing the Jews and Christians immediately. The persecutions started small and eventually became the holocaust. Hitler had Bonhoeffer executed in the closing days of the war when he just has easily could have let him go.

No one knows when the persecution will escalate but the Bible tells us that it will get to the point of Christians being killed simply because they are Christians. One thing is certain it will start in a small way and grow.

CueSi
03-02-2011, 11:08 PM
I found nothing offensive about what she stated. The degrees of persecution are different between the two but most things start out small. Hitler did not start killing the Jews and Christians immediately. The persecutions started small and eventually became the holocaust. Hitler had Bonhoeffer executed in the closing days of the war when he just has easily could have let him go.

No one knows when the persecution will escalate but the Bible tells us that it will get to the point of Christians being killed simply because they are Christians. One thing is certain it will start in a small way and grow.

Well, Dr. Bonhoeffer's involvement in the July 20th plot sealed his fate. Pretty much EVERYONE involved in that situation was executed, no matter how tangential they were to von Stauffenberg's plans.

So... there's that.

~QC

txradioguy
03-02-2011, 11:24 PM
But if you truly want to talk about persecuted Christians, why not look to the ones living in the middle east, China, and other TRULY persecutive countries toward Christians.

We do try to point that out from time to time...but we get shouted down by the defenders of the Religion of PeaceTM

wilbur
03-03-2011, 12:28 AM
As I said, one of those books you can't be bothered to read. It's full of facts you hate.

As for the holocaust, having had family members end up in concentration camps because they were caught smuggling Jews out of the country, I can give evidence that it was not due to any Christian anything, but to Hilter's use of propaganda and non-facts. In exactly the same way that abortion is not any Christian doing, but is pushed by the greed of the abortionists and their non-facts about human lives. Like the non-fact that human life should be unprotected until some certain stage of development. The thought patterns that allowed for the holocaust are the same ones that allow for abortion...and we all know which side of that line YOU are on. You really would have made a fanatic Hitler's youth.

No, I'm sorry... if we're blaming the holocaust on "thought patterns" - it most certainly was directly related to the Christian antisemitism in Germany - not some contemporary position on abortion which, quite frankly, I bet you still don't even understand. Show me where Nazi's said "beings with minds have a right to life" - and I'll agree that my principle may have contributed to the holocaust. . The Christian antisemitism made the German population receptive to Hitler's rhetoric, and created the climate which allowed the holocaust to happen. Whether Hitler himself was Christian or not is irrelevant.

Oh, if only you all could take off the blinders for a minute to see how badly you contradict yourselves here. How many of you think Karl Marx's philosophy directly contributed to worldwide atrocity (excluding WWW)? All of you, I bet. Yet, if you read Karl Marx, you won't find one mention or endorsement of Gulag's, or any of the other brutal tyrannical things that the communist regimes perpetrated on their people. He never actually spoke of those things, but the unintended consequences of his philosophy being adopted and implemented in the world resulted in them. And so all of you at least assign some of the blame to Marx and Marxism for the atrocities committed by those who were influenced by his ideas.

And so it is with Christianity and antisemitism and the holocaust. It doesn't matter that the Bible, according to *your* interpretations, doesn't contain anything antisemitic - it matters that that's how some Christians read it and interpreted it. The words in the book hit their brains and started percolating around in there, causing beliefs to form - whether their interpretations were right or not. Those beliefs then caused them to act in the world. And at least some of those beliefs lead to actions which made possible the attempted extermination of the Jewish people in Nazi Germany. It wasn't a small contingent of antisemitics hiding within Christianity throughout the ages - it was literally the dominant attitude until very recent times. Anti-semitism (of Christian origin) was the norm in Germany before the Holocaust occurred.

So if any of you still hope to blame Marx (or atheism) for the deaths of millions, so too must you blame the Bible and Christianity for the deaths of millions in Nazi Germany - there's no way around it.