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Apocalypse
03-03-2011, 12:20 PM
The 14 Wisconsin state Senate Democrats who left the state two weeks ago now face fines of $100 for each day they stay away.

Republicans remaining in the Senate approved the daily fine today with none of the Democrats present.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A2KJ3CWJzW9NVx8A9SbQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTEzN2ZlNzh wBHBvcwMyBHNlYwNzcgRjb2xvA2FjNAR2dGlkA1VTTkMxNl8x/SIG=14rltikhf/EXP=1299201545/**http%3a//www.chicagobreakingnews.com/news/local/chibrknews-missing-wis-dems-now-face-100-daily-fines-20110302,0,5412338.story%3ftrack=rss

Should be stiffer.

obx
03-03-2011, 12:24 PM
The 14 Wisconsin state Senate Democrats who left the state two weeks ago now face fines of $100 for each day they stay away.



Should be stiffer.

...and they should have to pay before going back.

Wei Wu Wei
03-03-2011, 12:41 PM
They are working on recalls right now, which would force new elections for the sitting senators, and right public opinion is on the side of the Democrats.

Polls have shown people 2 to 1 favor collective bargaining for public union workers.

There was a poll showing that if the gubanatorial election were held today Walker would lose in WI.

It's going to be hilarious if a few Republicans get challenged and the new vote tallys thanks to this whole spectacle change those seats Blue.

Apocalypse
03-03-2011, 01:06 PM
And other polls show that many believe Gov. Workers should not be in unions.

Do you think government employees should be represented by labor unions that bargain for higher pay, benefits and pensions, or do you think government employees should not be represented by labor unions?

Should 29%
Should not 64%

Clarus Research Group

lacarnut
03-03-2011, 01:36 PM
They are working on recalls right now, which would force new elections for the sitting senators, and right public opinion is on the side of the Democrats.

Polls have shown people 2 to 1 favor collective bargaining for public union workers.

There was a poll showing that if the gubanatorial election were held today Walker would lose in WI.

It's going to be hilarious if a few Republicans get challenged and the new vote tallys thanks to this whole spectacle change those seats Blue.

Let the Unions and the Democrats piss away hundreds of millions dollars. Less money to spend on the elections in 2012. Either way, the Magic Negro and the Democrats will lose big time.

BTW, what happened to Obama's pledge that he would put his walking shoes on and join the union picket line. HE LIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PoliCon
03-03-2011, 02:19 PM
They are working on recalls right now, which would force new elections for the sitting senators, and right public opinion is on the side of the Democrats.

Polls have shown people 2 to 1 favor collective bargaining for public union workers.

There was a poll showing that if the gubanatorial election were held today Walker would lose in WI.

It's going to be hilarious if a few Republicans get challenged and the new vote tallys thanks to this whole spectacle change those seats Blue.

Who's poll? There you go again making idiotic and unsubstantiated claims. :rolleyes:

PoliCon
03-03-2011, 02:20 PM
They are working on recalls right now, which would force new elections for the sitting senators, and right public opinion is on the side of the Democrats.

Polls have shown people 2 to 1 favor collective bargaining for public union workers.

There was a poll showing that if the gubanatorial election were held today Walker would lose in WI.

It's going to be hilarious if a few Republicans get challenged and the new vote tallys thanks to this whole spectacle change those seats Blue.


And other polls show that many believe Gov. Workers should not be in unions.

Do you think government employees should be represented by labor unions that bargain for higher pay, benefits and pensions, or do you think government employees should not be represented by labor unions?

Should 29%
Should not 64%

Clarus Research Group Notice the difference between Apoc's and your posts. He also sites polls - but has the guts and the sense to site which poll and give actual data. You should try it sometime.

Odysseus
03-03-2011, 02:35 PM
...and they should have to pay before going back.

Agreed. And they should add that any legislator who is willfully absent for more than thirty days shall be construed to have resigned his seat.

PoliCon
03-03-2011, 02:39 PM
Agreed. And they should add that any legislator who is willfully absent for more than thirty days shall be construed to have resigned his seat.

You're on to something there . . . . but lets set a limit for the number of consecutive days they can be absent as well as a limit on the number of days they can be absent PERIOD during a session. I would add a caveat though for extenuating circumstances - and put it on the books nationally.

Arroyo_Doble
03-03-2011, 02:48 PM
And other polls show that many believe Gov. Workers should not be in unions.

Do you think government employees should be represented by labor unions that bargain for higher pay, benefits and pensions, or do you think government employees should not be represented by labor unions?

Should 29%
Should not 64%

Clarus Research Group

That was so at odds with recent polling I had to check it out.

Here is a paragraph from what I found:


The survey was taken by Clarus Research Group, a nonpartisan polling firm based in Washington, D.C., Feb. 4-8, 2011 of a representative, nationwide sample of 1,001 registered voters. Interviewing was conducted by live telephone calls. The margin of error is +/-3.1 percent. Poll questioned asked: "Do you think government employees should be represented by labor unions that bargain for higher pay, benefits and pensions... or do you think government employees should not be represented by labor unions?"

First, it was taken well before the Budget protest started in Wisconsin and second, it is not Wisconsin specific.

The other interesting thing was I could not find out who paid for it.

Odysseus
03-03-2011, 03:03 PM
You're on to something there . . . . but lets set a limit for the number of consecutive days they can be absent as well as a limit on the number of days they can be absent PERIOD during a session. I would add a caveat though for extenuating circumstances - and put it on the books nationally.
Works for me. But the extenuating circumstances have to be better documented than the sick notes that the union doctors are writing.

Speaking of which, if a doctor provides thirty or forty notes for union absentees, doesn't he have to actually examine each of them? Which means, doesn't there have to be documentation of the exam, such as triage slips or recordings of vital signs? And who is paying those doctors? These teachers have a union health plan, which is paid for by the taxpayers. Don't the visits have to be billed to the state?

A doctor who doesn't submit a bill cannot prove that he saw the patient. A doctor who does submit a bill for more patients than he can possibly have seen is defrauding the system.

That was so at odds with recent polling I had to check it out.

Here is a paragraph from what I found:


The survey was taken by Clarus Research Group, a nonpartisan polling firm based in Washington, D.C., Feb. 4-8, 2011 of a representative, nationwide sample of 1,001 registered voters. Interviewing was conducted by live telephone calls. The margin of error is +/-3.1 percent. Poll questioned asked: "Do you think government employees should be represented by labor unions that bargain for higher pay, benefits and pensions... or do you think government employees should not be represented by labor unions?"

First, it was taken well before the Budget protest started in Wisconsin and second, it is not Wisconsin specific.

The other interesting thing was I could not find out who paid for it.

There's an easy way to put the popular sentiment to the test. Let's allow the people of Wisconsin to vote on the budget.

Arroyo_Doble
03-03-2011, 03:13 PM
You're on to something there . . . . but lets set a limit for the number of consecutive days they can be absent as well as a limit on the number of days they can be absent PERIOD during a session. I would add a caveat though for extenuating circumstances - and put it on the books nationally.

You want the federal government to dictate the legislative body rules of the Several States?

I don't think that would pass constitutional muster.

Arroyo_Doble
03-03-2011, 03:14 PM
There's an easy way to put the popular sentiment to the test. Let's allow the people of Wisconsin to vote on the budget.

I am not sure there's provision for that in Wisconsin law. I don't know their referendum rules. It would take research.

But we may see a test in recall elections, if they occur.

Apocalypse
03-03-2011, 03:19 PM
BTW, what happened to Obama's pledge that he would put his walking shoes on and join the union picket line. HE LIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because he found that Walker was popular in polls and didn't want to side against the voters in a swing state leading into the elections.

That was also his big push to try and distance him self from the efforts to rally those who would support the unions.

If he/Dems lose Wisconsin, then they will lose elections for years to come.

lacarnut
03-03-2011, 03:23 PM
Because he found that Walker was popular in polls and didn't want to side against the voters in a swing state leading into the elections.

That was also his big push to try and distance him self from the efforts to rally those who would support the unions.

If he/Dems lose Wisconsin, then they will lose elections for years to come.

Yep, Obama is a coward also.

PoliCon
03-03-2011, 03:38 PM
You want the federal government to dictate the legislative body rules of the Several States?

I don't think that would pass constitutional muster.

You know that there is a difference between federal and national right? :rolleyes:

Odysseus
03-03-2011, 03:43 PM
I am not sure there's provision for that in Wisconsin law. I don't know their referendum rules. It would take research.

But we may see a test in recall elections, if they occur.

Recall of whom? Certainly not Walker. From USA Today:


Peter Roff
Poll: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker Winning Labor, Budget Fight
By Peter Roff

Posted: February 25, 2011
Print
A poll of Wisconsin voters released Thursday finds more of them support Gov. Scott Walker’s proposed reforms than oppose them.

The poll, conducted by former Bill Clinton political consultant Dick Morris, finds Walker’s reforms--as a package--are backed by 51 percent of the more than 400 likely voters surveyed while 47 percent indicated they were opposed.

Taken point by point, however, the news is almost all good for Walker, who has become a national political figure virtually overnight thanks to his effort to reform the way the state government works as part of his efforts to balance the budget.

For example, by a margin of 74 percent to 18 percent, likely voters in Wisconsin back the idea of making state employees pay more for their health insurance. By a margin of 79 percent to 16 percent, they favor asking state workers to contribute more toward their pensions. And, by a margin of 66 percent to 30 percent they support the idea that state workers’ pay increase should be tied to the rate of inflation unless voters approve a higher raise by public referendum.

For the moment, however, the core issue of the fight that has paralyzed the state government and led to protesters occupying the state capitol building--the idea that the power of public employee unions to engage in collective bargaining be limited to wage and benefit issues--Wisconsin voters break with the governor, 54 percent to 41 percent.

That, Morris said in a release, means that while “Voters back the principal of collective bargaining,” the survey indicates they might be willing to back Walker’s proposed changes if it would ensure “they would not impede education reforms.” Meaning that if Walker can frame the debate as one that gives school more flexibility, makes it easier to get rid of bad teachers and retain good ones and pay teachers based on merit, the numbers flip, with likely voters backing Walker’s position 58 percent to 38 percent.

The poll was conducted by telephone among 409 likely Wisconsin voters and has an error margin of 4 percent.

Arroyo_Doble
03-03-2011, 03:46 PM
You know that there is a difference between federal and national right? :rolleyes:

I misunderstood. You were talking about a 50 state campaign.

Arroyo_Doble
03-03-2011, 03:48 PM
Recall of whom?

Currently there is talk of recalling Republican and Democratic senators in the state of Wisconsin. Also, the governor might get one. Signatures for the recall petition on him can begin in November, I believe.

Adam Wood
03-03-2011, 03:58 PM
Currently there is talk of recalling Republican and Democratic senators in the state of Wisconsin. Also, the governor might get one. Signatures for the recall petition on him can begin in November, I believe.My understanding was that he has to be in office for at least one year before a recall attempt is made, which would mean January '12 instead of November'11.

Regardless, the recall petitions are going nowhere. These are invariably exceedingly difficult to get pushed through. Gray Davis' recall was a very rare exception. We have recalled one judge in Tennessee ever, and only two or three state legislators, and our recall statutes are relatively easy compared to a lot of states.

The whole thing will lose any steam it might have before they can even get the signatures on the petition to even begin the recall process. Wisconsonians (?) are not nearly united enough in anger at the Republicans (whom they just elected in a landslide, and they ran on doing exactly what they're doing now) to go anywhere with this. Anyone pushing the recall petitions a week from now is just going to look like a bitter sore loser.

Odysseus
03-03-2011, 04:05 PM
Currently there is talk of recalling Republican and Democratic senators in the state of Wisconsin. Also, the governor might get one. Signatures for the recall petition on him can begin in November, I believe.

There was talk about impeaching Reagan and both Bushes. Talk is cheap.

fettpett
03-03-2011, 04:08 PM
8 of the Dems have recall efforts being taken against them. it takes 60 days from filing for the their to be approval for the recall election, then they hold the election.

I bet that at lest 2-4 of them get recalled and a Republican takes their seat

PoliCon
03-03-2011, 04:15 PM
There was talk about impeaching Reagan and both Bushes. Talk is cheap.

interestingly enough - the only two US presidents to be impeached both belong to the same party.

lacarnut
03-03-2011, 04:18 PM
8 of the Dems have recall efforts being taken against them. it takes 60 days from filing for the their to be approval for the recall election, then they hold the election.

I bet that at lest 2-4 of them get recalled and a Republican takes their seat

The threat of a recall will no doubt get a politician attention. Staying in office and being re-elected is their number one goal in most instances.

Wei Wu Wei
03-03-2011, 04:18 PM
Don't forget that there are still pending threats from many union groups claiming they will call a General Strike if this passes.

Walker is literally going to bring in the national gaurd to shoot middle class workers if they do this too.

For The People

Wei Wu Wei
03-03-2011, 04:20 PM
The threat of a recall will no doubt get a politician attention. Staying in office and being re-elected is their number one goal in most instances.

Often times it's not. Many politicians (from both parties) just get into that position so they can do a favor for some major corporation who then pays back the favor by hiring them as consultants after their term is up. The politician is then set for life, the corporation gets the laws they want to benefit them, and fuck everyone else. Even if they have just one term and are booted out by voters, why would they care about it when they can be literal millionaires from the comfort of their McMansions?

Bailey
03-03-2011, 04:20 PM
Don't forget that there are still pending threats from many union groups claiming they will call a General Strike if this passes.

Walker is literally going to bring in the national gaurd to shoot middle class workers if they do this too.

For The People

As long as they shoot dems/union workers I'm cool with it.

Wei Wu Wei
03-03-2011, 04:21 PM
There are many people who would happily run for office and pass quid-pro-quo laws so they can become millionaires and retire at 48. I mean hell that's a no-brainer for most folk.

Wei Wu Wei
03-03-2011, 04:22 PM
As long as they shoot dems/union workers I'm cool with it.

hahaha yes let's hope the Other Team gets killed


that's the ticket. if you voted for the wrong guy, i hope you are literally shot.:D

PoliCon
03-03-2011, 04:23 PM
Don't forget that there are still pending threats from many union groups claiming they will call a General Strike if this passes.

Walker is literally going to bring in the national gaurd to shoot middle class workers if they do this too.

For The People

Let them strike. AND let them be fired. Lots of other people would be glad to have their jobs.

Arroyo_Doble
03-03-2011, 04:23 PM
My understanding was that he has to be in office for at least one year before a recall attempt is made, which would mean January '12 instead of November'11.

My understanding was the signiture drive could start 60 days prior to that date.


Regardless, the recall petitions are going nowhere. These are invariably exceedingly difficult to get pushed through. Gray Davis' recall was a very rare exception. We have recalled one judge in Tennessee ever, and only two or three state legislators, and our recall statutes are relatively easy compared to a lot of states.

It may lead to nothing but there have been successful recall elections (not governor) in Wisconsin in the last decade or two. And keep in mind, the union organizing skills for political action can be pretty good ..... which is why there is a desire to crush them, I suppose.


The whole thing will lose any steam it might have before they can even get the signatures on the petition to even begin the recall process. Wisconsonians (?) are not nearly united enough in anger at the Republicans (whom they just elected in a landslide, and they ran on doing exactly what they're doing now) to go anywhere with this. Anyone pushing the recall petitions a week from now is just going to look like a bitter sore loser.

I don't believe you are accurate when you say they ran on denying collective bargaining rights to public employees but that aside, you are probably right about the "steam" running out after this is resolved.

But then again, it has been awhile since there was a major labor fight in this nation. The sleeping giant may have been awaken.

PoliCon
03-03-2011, 04:30 PM
The sleeping giant may have been awaken.

Very true. Average Joe America is fed up with the power and control the unions exact over government. We've had it and have no interest in putting up with it any more.

Arroyo_Doble
03-03-2011, 04:32 PM
Very true. Average Joe America is fed up with the power and control the unions exact over government.

Yea. Those working stiffs are tired of the control working stiffs have on government and want to turn over to the Koch bros.

:rolleyes:

PoliCon
03-03-2011, 04:33 PM
Yea. Those working stiffs are tired of the control working stiffs have on government and want to turn over to the Koch bros.

:rolleyes:



What percentage of American workers are union members? Answer that and then try again. :rolleyes:

Odysseus
03-03-2011, 04:36 PM
Don't forget that there are still pending threats from many union groups claiming they will call a General Strike if this passes.

Walker is literally going to bring in the national gaurd to shoot middle class workers if they do this too.

For The People
You mean, for the Union brass, don't you?

http://diversitylane.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/diversitylane_wisconsin_for-web.jpg?w=510&h=601

Let them strike. AND let them be fired. Lots of other people would be glad to have their jobs.

Works for me. The unemployment rate is high enough that most people don't have any patience with people who refuse to report to work.

fettpett
03-03-2011, 04:37 PM
The threat of a recall will no doubt get a politician attention. Staying in office and being re-elected is their number one goal in most instances.

I think the only ones that are "threating" are the libtard groups to the GOP, the Dems are in the process of being recalled...

Wei Wu Wei
03-03-2011, 04:38 PM
Very true. Average Joe America is fed up with the power and control the unions exact over government. We've had it and have no interest in putting up with it any more.

Let's try this compromise thing again.

I will admit that Labor Unions influence washington. They lobby congress and donate to Democratic politicians. Also, their actions are not always in the best interests of their members. Also, union leaders are often guilty of the same sort of corruption and behavior that wall street fat cats are accused of.

Okay that is me conceding that you are right about some things here.

Now, do you admit that Big Business influences washington? That they lobby congress and donate to politicians? They their actions are not always in the best interests of working Americans?

If you're able to concede this much for the sake of discussion, we can look at the amount of political influence that these two groups have. We can also look at the history of Big Business and organized labor but we both have to be realistic about the discussion, no side can try to play faultless here or have a hold on Truth or any of that.

Adam Wood
03-03-2011, 04:39 PM
Don't forget that there are still pending threats from many union groups claiming they will call a General Strike if this passes.Oh PLEASE let them do this! PLEASE!! No better way in the world to utterly and completely destroy unions in this country than if a bunch of union thugs walk off the job and a lot of scabs take their place. Let the 12% minority try it. I would absolutely LOVE it if they did this.


Walker is literally going to bring in the national gaurd to shoot middle class workers if they do this too.HHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAA!!!!

Sure. That's the ticket!

Good grief, what lunacy you spout! :rolleyes:

fettpett
03-03-2011, 04:40 PM
Yea. Those working stiffs are tired of the control working stiffs have on government and want to turn over to the Koch bros.

:rolleyes:

yeah...because the Koch brothers have SOOOO much to do with this....idiots

Apocalypse
03-03-2011, 04:59 PM
Don't forget that there are still pending threats from many union groups claiming they will call a General Strike if this passes.

Walker is literally going to bring in the national gaurd to shoot middle class workers if they do this too.

For The PeopleYou and most of the left are hoping that Walker orders that, even though he does not have the authority to do so.

His mentioning of calling in the NG is only if correctional union workers strike, then the NG would be called in to maintain the prisons and only that.


8 of the Dems have recall efforts being taken against them. it takes 60 days from filing for the their to be approval for the recall election, then they hold the election.

I bet that at lest 2-4 of them get recalled and a Republican takes their seat

There are recall efforts on 8 Republican Senators too. 3 of whom won in blue districts under 51% of the pop. vote.

For the recall efforts, its kinda weak, so there is a chance to move for a recall, but it has to have a valid reason, and must then go to a popular vote of those in that district before a full recall occurs. So it is not easy

Apocalypse
03-03-2011, 05:03 PM
Yea. Those working stiffs are tired of the control working stiffs have on government and want to turn over to the Koch bros.

:rolleyes:

Time to ruin your day.


Wisconsin State Employees Should Have Some Koch and Smile

By Christian Schneider
March 1, 2011

When the history books record l’affaire Wisconsin, public-employee unions will have plenty of villains. They will remember Republican governor Scott Walker, who proposed scaling back their ability to collectively bargain. They will revile Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald, who cut off debate and “rushed” the bill to a vote after 61 hours of debate on the Assembly floor. But for the Left, the most enduring villain might be the billionaire Koch brothers.

When frequently vile Buffalobeast.com blogger Ian Murphy prank-called Walker, he pretended to be David Koch — thinking that would be the most embarrassing call Walker could take…

The vitriol from protesting Wisconsin workers towards the Kochs emerged quickly and intensely. Signs ranging between lame and vulgar (often both) dot the public-union marches.

But what the protesters don’t realize is that they actually have a reason to root for the Koch brothers.

According to the State of Wisconsin Investment Board (SWIB), the Wisconsin Retirement System owns $5.5 million in Georgia Pacific corporate bonds. (Georgia Pacific is owned by Koch Industries.) This is the retirement system in which the overwhelming majority of state and local employees participate. These are the pension benefits that public employees are trying so hard to protect.

So here’s the challenge: Explain to a Wisconsin state worker that they are the ones helping fund the Koch brothers. Then sit back and watch the fun.

Granted, $5.5 million out of a $18.5 billion fixed-income bond fund isn’t a whole lot…

But one imagines the public unions’ vitriol will soften a little bit when they realize their retirement payout is incumbent on the success of the Kochs. They’re all part of the same money-making ecosystem, despite many state employees believing all their retirement funds are invested exclusively in dreams and rainbows.

So in the end, public unions should recognize that the real Koch will do them a lot more good than the fake one ever did.

— Christian Schneider is a senior fellow at the Wisconsin Policy Research Institute.

Adam Wood
03-03-2011, 05:07 PM
My understanding was the signiture drive could start 60 days prior to that date.Could be. I haven't really studied it in great detail.


It may lead to nothing but there have been successful recall elections (not governor) in Wisconsin in the last decade or two. And keep in mind, the union organizing skills for political action can be pretty good ..... which is why there is a desire to crush them, I suppose.Perhaps, but public favor is not going their way. Indeed, it's shifting against the unions at a rapid rate. People are realizing that these public employees are getting raises while everyone else is taking a pay cut and then they're looking at the state's balance sheet and they're having a WTF moment.


I don't believe you are accurate when you say they ran on denying collective bargaining rights to public employees but that aside, you are probably right about the "steam" running out after this is resolved.Well, it depends upon exactly how literal one wants to be. True, "end collective bargaining for state employee unions" was not a specifically-mentioned plank on his campaign platform, but it was certainly well-understood by the electorate on both sides. As pointed out by Stephen Hayes (http://www.npr.org/2011/02/23/133995779/weekly-standard-why-so-surprised-about-walker):
My claim, however, was probably too vague, especially in the context of the argument Williams was making. Walker certainly ran on cutting the deficit and requiring concessions from public employees to help him. And anyone familiar with Walker's efforts to balance budgets as Milwaukee county executive would understand that collective bargaining requirements made his task nearly impossible. But as Sullivan and Politifact point out, Walker's campaign materials, which were quite detailed, did not highlight the specific proposal on collective bargaining (eliminating it for everything but wages) in the budget repair bill.

That said, it's simply not accurate to rate Walker's claim that he campaigned on what he is now doing as "false." In fact, he did campaign on much of what he is now doing. And while the specific collective bargaining proposal in the budget repair bill was not a regular line in his stump speech, it was also no secret that he would make significant changes to Wisconsin's collective bargaining rules.

The Politifact/Journal Sentinel rating suggests otherwise. "It seemed to us like the first public hint Walker gave that he was considering eliminating many union bargaining rights was at a Dec. 7, 2010 Milwaukee Press Club forum, some four weeks after the election."

Really? That claim is undermined by the paper's own reporting. On August 30, the Journal Sentinel ran an article on plans by Walker and Milwaukee mayor Tom Barrett, his Democratic opponent, to save the state money by revamping health insurance plans for public employees. The reporter spoke to Ryan Murray, a top policy adviser for the Walker campaign, who explained the candidate's plan. "The way the proposal would work is we would take the choice out of the collective bargaining process," Murray said.

So does taking the choice out of the collective bargaining process mean ending it for health care? The reporter certainly seemed to think so. "[Murray] said school districts often have some of the most expensive health benefits in Wisconsin and could receive cheaper insurance through the state if they didn't have to negotiate with unions about who would insure their members." (Emphasis added.)

What was clear to the reporter was also clear to the teachers' unions. "Our members oppose taking away their rights to collective bargaining, so they would definitely raise their voices against it," said Christina Brey, a spokesman for the Wisconsin Education Association Council, the union leading protests today.

It was certainly believed to be a goal of his by the local affiliate of the NEA (http://www.weac.org/TRUE/newsletters/2010%20November%20Final.pdf) (.pdf warning).

And as was noted on one of the Sunday talk shows last week, there were actual official Walker for Governor campaign flyers that had been handed out in many locations that did indeed specifically state that Walker would end or strongly curtail collective bargaining by state employee unions in order to get the budget under control.


So, while it may not have been something prominently displayed in such literal terms as "I will end collective bargaining for public employee unions" on his campaign website or whatever, it was hardly any secret to anyone that this was one of his goals. This attempt by so many now to claim to have been "blindsided" by this are completely hollow. It's just like the claims at the time that Bush was appointing conservative Justices to the Supreme Court, and that was some sort of *gasp* complete surprise. The reality is the exact opposite: Bush was crystal clear all along that he would only appoint strict constructionists to the SC. That's why I voted for the guy over McCain. His judicial goals were very clear to anyone paying attention from the start.


But then again, it has been awhile since there was a major labor fight in this nation. The sleeping giant may have been awaken.I sincerely doubt it. People are sick and tired of union bullshit. They don't like seeing union bosses jetting around in private planes, they don't like being compelled to join up and pay extortion money to some racket just to practice their chosen trade, and non-union people are quite fed up with dealing with union people in their trade who use their work rules against everyone as a weapon.

There's a reason why union membership has plummeted in this country in the last 40 years or so, and it has nothing to do with evil Pinkerton guys roaming around with baseball bats to keep the unions out. It's because people are sick of their bullshit.

txradioguy
03-03-2011, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Arroyo_Doble
Yea. Those working stiffs are tired of the control working stiffs have on government and want to turn over to the Koch bros.

That's it just keep repeating the lie.

Walker got one half of one percent of all his donations from the Koch Brothers. That's roughly $43,000

There is one Democrat Fleebagger Senator...Spencer Coggs...that got 66% of his campaign donations from Unions.

IIRC the total between all 14 of the Dems is 18% of their total donations.

Remind me again about who is trying to turn the Government over to whom.



The 14 Wisconsin Democratic senators who fled to Illinois share more than just political sympathy with the public employees and unions targeted by Gov. Scott Walker's budget-repair bill.
The Senate Democrats count on those in the public sector as a key funding source for their campaigns.
In fact, nearly one out of every five dollars raised by those Democratic senators in the past two election cycles came from public employees, such as teachers and firefighters, and their unions, a Journal Sentinel analysis of campaign records shows.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/117078618.html

Odysseus
03-03-2011, 05:22 PM
Let's try this compromise thing again.

I will admit that Labor Unions influence washington. They lobby congress and donate to Democratic politicians. Also, their actions are not always in the best interests of their members. Also, union leaders are often guilty of the same sort of corruption and behavior that wall street fat cats are accused of.

Okay that is me conceding that you are right about some things here.

Now, do you admit that Big Business influences washington? That they lobby congress and donate to politicians? They their actions are not always in the best interests of working Americans?

If you're able to concede this much for the sake of discussion, we can look at the amount of political influence that these two groups have. We can also look at the history of Big Business and organized labor but we both have to be realistic about the discussion, no side can try to play faultless here or have a hold on Truth or any of that.

You miss the point. A public employee works for the government, which is comprised of a permantent bureaucracy under elected officials or their appointees. When a union attempts to manipulate the process in order to select who their employers will be, they end up negotiating contracts with people that they have put into office. It's a massive conflict of interest.

Now, do businesses lobby? Absolutely. They lobby for three reasons. The first, and least justifiable, is to manipulate the political process in order to gain a competitive advantage. The second is to protect themselves from the first. The third is to protect themselves from activists who have been empowered by the government to attack them, either within the federal government or in NGOs. This is a function of government expanding beyond its mandates and picking winners and losers instead of letting the markets do it.

So, here's my solution: Reign in the power of government so that it must act only within its Constitutionally authorized powers and ban public employee unions. A government that cannot impose its will on law-abiding citizens doesn't attract hundreds of billions of dollars in campaign and lobbying efforts.

Arroyo_Doble
03-03-2011, 05:28 PM
Time to ruin your day.


Granted, $5.5 million out of a $18.5 billion fixed-income bond fund isn’t a whole lot…

But one imagines the public unions’ vitriol will soften a little bit when they realize their retirement payout is incumbent on the success of the Kochs. They’re all part of the same money-making ecosystem, despite many state employees believing all their retirement funds are invested exclusively in dreams and rainbows.


I think the writer of the piece ruined his own day and got tetchy with the last sentence above.

And they have 75 billion under management according to their latest report.

Apocalypse
03-03-2011, 05:29 PM
In a fixed income bond?

Arroyo_Doble
03-03-2011, 05:33 PM
In a fixed income bond?

No. I was talking about the entire portfolio according to the latest release by the State of Wisconsin Investment Board. It is a 68 page PDF if you want me to link it for you.

Not sure it matters, though. 5 mil out of 18 or 75 bil is really not a large impact. I understand the point of interconnectedness the author was trying to make but I doubt you will see much cheering for the Koch industries because of that very small piece.

PoliCon
03-03-2011, 05:47 PM
In fact, nearly one out of every five dollars raised by those Democratic senators in the past two election cycles came from public employees, such as teachers and firefighters, and their unions But it's okay when they do it. They have the correct progressive ideology so everything they do is excusable.

Adam Wood
03-03-2011, 06:07 PM
FleebaggerLOL! Now thats funny!

Apocalypse
03-03-2011, 06:36 PM
LOL! Now thats funny!

Term that has been around for a few weeks for the missing Dims.

NJCardFan
03-03-2011, 08:14 PM
Someone help me out. In order for there to be a re-call, doesn't there have to be cause? Because it doesn't make sense to recall any of the Republican legislators. However, the Democrats have abandoned their post. So, someone clarify that to me.

fettpett
03-03-2011, 09:04 PM
Someone help me out. In order for there to be a re-call, doesn't there have to be cause? Because it doesn't make sense to recall any of the Republican legislators. However, the Democrats have abandoned their post. So, someone clarify that to me.

Wisconsin – Const. Art. 13, §12; Wis. Stat. Ann. §9.10

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Laws_governing_recall_in_Wisconsin

Wei Wu Wei
03-03-2011, 11:05 PM
Ronald Reagan considered unionizing and striking to be "basic rights":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orwN4WKhriw

Apocalypse
03-03-2011, 11:17 PM
Ronald Reagan considered unionizing and striking to be "basic rights":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orwN4WKhriw

This isn't about unionizing Wei, its about collective bargaining.

And FDR said public workers should not be allowed to be in Unions.

txradioguy
03-04-2011, 12:48 AM
Imagine that our little Commie swings and misses again. :rolleyes: