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View Full Version : STUNNING! Teachers Union backers, defend this please



Apocalypse
03-05-2011, 09:49 PM
140 teacher retirement requests approved

The emeritus program gives one full year’s salary paid over three years. That is in addition to pension benefits. In return, the retiree provides 10 days of service to the district each year during that time. The emeritus program is something that has been negotiated into the teachers’ contract through collective bargaining.

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/140-green-bay-teachers-looking-to-retire

To put it into an easier to understand way, Public School Teachers in Green Bay can retire, join an “emeritus program,” and earn a full years pay for working 30 days over 3 years. I kid you not, this is a real program, and 140 Green Bay teachers have applied this year.

Now, State Senate Democrats are defending this sort of collective bargaining, where no one is on the side of the taxpayer!

PoliCon
03-05-2011, 09:51 PM
140 teacher retirement requests approved

The emeritus program gives one full year’s salary paid over three years. That is in addition to pension benefits. In return, the retiree provides 10 days of service to the district each year during that time. The emeritus program is something that has been negotiated into the teachers’ contract through collective bargaining.

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/140-green-bay-teachers-looking-to-retire

To put it into an easier to understand way, Public School Teachers in Green Bay can retire, join an “emeritus program,” and earn a full years pay for working 30 days over 3 years. I kid you not, this is a real program, and 140 Green Bay teachers have applied this year.

Now, State Senate Democrats are defending this sort of collective bargaining, where no one is on the side of the taxpayer!

Sadly - it's cheaper to have them retire like this and hire a new teacher than it is to keep them in the classroom adding to their pensions.

NJCardFan
03-05-2011, 10:22 PM
It's their right.

Lanie
03-05-2011, 10:57 PM
The school systems often want to keep using who they are familiar with. Chances are these teachers will be doing more than ten days service.

PoliCon
03-05-2011, 11:03 PM
The school systems often want to keep using who they are familiar with. Chances are these teachers will be doing more than ten days service.

sure - they'll come back as subs keeping new teachers out of the system.

Novaheart
03-05-2011, 11:11 PM
140 teacher retirement requests approved

The emeritus program gives one full year’s salary paid over three years. That is in addition to pension benefits. In return, the retiree provides 10 days of service to the district each year during that time. The emeritus program is something that has been negotiated into the teachers’ contract through collective bargaining.

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/140-green-bay-teachers-looking-to-retire

To put it into an easier to understand way, Public School Teachers in Green Bay can retire, join an “emeritus program,” and earn a full years pay for working 30 days over 3 years. I kid you not, this is a real program, and 140 Green Bay teachers have applied this year.

Now, State Senate Democrats are defending this sort of collective bargaining, where no one is on the side of the taxpayer!

I don't approve of that, but then I am amazed at the government jobs which allow one to theoretically retire at 38 or 43 years old simply because he has 20 or 25 years in. Is there something magical about that? My dad worked until he was 70 before he retired and my mom retired at 65.

However, when you consider the pay and severance packages that school superintendents get, and the fact that they are often hired even though they come from some system they ruined or did little to make better , the pay and benefits to teachers seems reasonable. And when you compare all of this, because you would have to add the salaries of all these people, to the pay packages of some of these nepotistic CEO types who sit on each others' board and vote themselves millions, well, it's all crumbs under the table.

Novaheart
03-05-2011, 11:12 PM
sure - they'll come back as subs keeping new teachers out of the system.

You mean like the double and triple dippers in the legislatures and federal government?

PoliCon
03-05-2011, 11:14 PM
You mean like the double and triple dippers in the legislatures and federal government?

yup.

Rockntractor
03-05-2011, 11:16 PM
You mean like the double and triple dippers in the legislatures and federal government?

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z60/sumatra_photos/27257.jpg

MrsSmith
03-06-2011, 09:54 AM
I don't approve of that, but then I am amazed at the government jobs which allow one to theoretically retire at 38 or 43 years old simply because he has 20 or 25 years in. Is there something magical about that? My dad worked until he was 70 before he retired and my mom retired at 65.

However, when you consider the pay and severance packages that school superintendents get, and the fact that they are often hired even though they come from some system they ruined or did little to make better , the pay and benefits to teachers seems reasonable. And when you compare all of this, because you would have to add the salaries of all these people, to the pay packages of some of these nepotistic CEO types who sit on each others' board and vote themselves millions, well, it's all crumbs under the table.

Must be, because the only ones I can find are military. Believe it or not, as people age, they find it more difficult to maintain the standard physical requirements of military life, so we allow them to retire after 20 or 25 years of hard service to our country. If you are so jealous of that, see your local recruiter. Personally, I have no problem with paying taxes to support those that gave so much to our country. Oh, and they only get 30 days vacation a year, teachers get 3x that.

AmPat
03-06-2011, 11:00 AM
Must be, because the only ones I can find are military. Believe it or not, as people age, they find it more difficult to maintain the standard physical requirements of military life, so we allow them to retire after 20 or 25 years of hard service to our country. If you are so jealous of that, see your local recruiter. Personally, I have no problem with paying taxes to support those that gave so much to our country. Oh, and they only get 30 days vacation a year, teachers get 3x that.

Thank you ma'am. I understand many don't agree with this "early" retirement. I understand but let me offer you a couple of issues.
1. I am 52 years old and still must perform near the level of my 20 year old Soldiers. I get a small break due to age adjusted standards but I still must attend and do physical training 5 times a week. I run better than most of the younger Soldiers but I assure you that I feel the pain more than them. Army equipment is retired much earlier and is not expected to perform like the new equipment.

2. I have spent considerable time away from my family, God bless them, and cannot get that time back. My son and daughter's birthdays and significant events won't come again.

I don't regret my lifestyle but I don't believe that my civilian counterparts should begrudge me a 20 (I'm going on 25 years) year retirement as though my career were equivalent to theirs.

PoliCon
03-06-2011, 11:40 AM
teachers get 3x that. we do? when??:confused:

NJCardFan
03-06-2011, 12:29 PM
I don't approve of that, but then I am amazed at the government jobs which allow one to theoretically retire at 38 or 43 years old simply because he has 20 or 25 years in. Is there something magical about that? My dad worked until he was 70 before he retired and my mom retired at 65.



Police an fire should be allowed to retire at any age as long as they have the requirements for retirement met. This kind of blanket thinking is stupid at it's very core. I'm not talking about someone who's job is to sit behind a desk all day long or to drive around inspecting stuff, I'm talking about people who lay their lives on the line on a daily basis. My job is a high stress job. It also has one of if not the highest suicide rates, alcoholism rates, and domestic violence rates. No matter who you are, eventually, something is going to wear you down. We also tend to die early. Average age where a corrections officer dies is 58. (http://www.realpolice.net/forums/department-corrections-142/75271-correctional-officers-facts.html) If you're saying that if someone enters corrections at 18, they should be made to work 47-52 years? They'd never make it.

MrsSmith
03-06-2011, 03:00 PM
we do? when??:confused:Summer break, spring break, "winter" break, Federal holidays...all in addition to sick and vacation days. :rolleyes:

Novaheart
03-06-2011, 03:10 PM
Police an fire should be allowed to retire at any age as long as they have the requirements for retirement met. This kind of blanket thinking is stupid at it's very core. I'm not talking about someone who's job is to sit behind a desk all day long or to drive around inspecting stuff, I'm talking about people who lay their lives on the line on a daily basis. My job is a high stress job. It also has one of if not the highest suicide rates, alcoholism rates, and domestic violence rates. No matter who you are, eventually, something is going to wear you down. We also tend to die early. Average age where a corrections officer dies is 58. (http://www.realpolice.net/forums/department-corrections-142/75271-correctional-officers-facts.html) If you're saying that if someone enters corrections at 18, they should be made to work 47-52 years? They'd never make it.

Not that it challenges your point, but simply as an FYI, there is some guy on Lock-up who has been a prison guard for 50 years. I can't remember which prison it is, San Quentin or Folsom, but he also swims in that freezing cold bay every day too.

PoliCon
03-06-2011, 03:14 PM
Summer break, spring break, "winter" break, Federal holidays...all in addition to sick and vacation days. :rolleyes:

OOOHHH so you assume that because kids are off on a given day that the teachers are off too?

Rockntractor
03-06-2011, 03:20 PM
OOOHHH so you assume that because kids are off on a given day that the teachers are off too?

So you work all those days.

PoliCon
03-06-2011, 03:21 PM
So you work all those days.

all? no.

Novaheart
03-06-2011, 03:22 PM
Police an fire should be allowed to retire at any age as long as they have the requirements for retirement met. This kind of blanket thinking is stupid at it's very core. I'm not talking about someone who's job is to sit behind a desk all day long or to drive around inspecting stuff, I'm talking about people who lay their lives on the line on a daily basis. My job is a high stress job. It also has one of if not the highest suicide rates, alcoholism rates, and domestic violence rates. No matter who you are, eventually, something is going to wear you down. We also tend to die early. Average age where a corrections officer dies is 58. (http://www.realpolice.net/forums/department-corrections-142/75271-correctional-officers-facts.html) If you're saying that if someone enters corrections at 18, they should be made to work 47-52 years? They'd never make it.

More to the point though, when we're talking about government pay and benefits, no one ever does to the military what they do to others. And while there certainly are military personnel who are devoted and who have made sacrifices and put themselves in harms way, there are also lots of jobs that aren't particularly demanding or dangerous. Yes, in theory they can all be handed a gun and shipped to the Russian Front, but in reality a lot of them never will.

My uncle retired from the Air Force at 50 and drew benefits for 30 years. No one is saying he shouldn't, but at the same time he would have thought it was insulting if 40 years ago someone had accused him of being paid all of his salary and projected benefits as if it were his rate of pay.

These figures for teachers are designed to shock a public which is largely unconcerned with details and undeterred by correction. The anti-worker factions have done this for years to attack all manner of blue collar workers, claiming that auto worker made outrageous hourly rates was a favorite.

And yes, it's ridiculous that a bus driver in New York made some outrageous amount by working the system. So fix that problem, unions know that cities have to answer for stuff like that. But it's also pretty outrageous that the STARTING salary for a cop in SF is $103,000, just salary. So why does the city pay that?

Rockntractor
03-06-2011, 03:26 PM
all? no.

How many of them do you?

PoliCon
03-06-2011, 03:43 PM
How many of them do you?

well lets work off the standard 52 week year which gives us 260 work days out of the 365 total days each year. Of those 260 days - 180 is the MINIMUM required by the state of PA for a full school year. Most districts include an extra 3-5 or so in case of snow days. My district runs a 184 day school year. Now those are only the days the KIDS are in school. Each month teachers are required to put in an extra day - those are called in service days - adding 12 days to the teachers calendar. (196) Add parent/teacher conference days twice a year (198) and the two weeks of set up in preparation for the kids coming in - (208) and the three days at the end of the year for finishing up end of the year records - (211) - that leaves teachers with roughly 49 "off" days a year. BUT WAIT! There's more! Over Christmas break and Thanksgiving break and spring break/Easter break and on weekends we are expected to correct tests and papers and write lessons . . . . so in reality those 49 days are not all "vacation days."

Rockntractor
03-06-2011, 06:52 PM
well lets work off the standard 52 week year which gives us 260 work days out of the 365 total days each year. Of those 260 days - 180 is the MINIMUM required by the state of PA for a full school year. Most districts include an extra 3-5 or so in case of snow days. My district runs a 184 day school year. Now those are only the days the KIDS are in school. Each month teachers are required to put in an extra day - those are called in service days - adding 12 days to the teachers calendar. (196) Add parent/teacher conference days twice a year (198) and the two weeks of set up in preparation for the kids coming in - (208) and the three days at the end of the year for finishing up end of the year records - (211) - that leaves teachers with roughly 49 "off" days a year. BUT WAIT! There's more! Over Christmas break and Thanksgiving break and spring break/Easter break and on weekends we are expected to correct tests and papers and write lessons . . . . so in reality those 49 days are not all "vacation days."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10164/1065333-298.stm

Pay for some teachers set to exceed $100,000
Sunday, June 13, 2010
By Eleanor Chute, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
The $100,000-a-year classroom teacher soon will be a reality in some local school districts.

The career rate for teachers in both Fox Chapel Area and North Allegheny will crack the $100,000-a-year mark in 2011-12. The career rate -- the top step on the salary schedule for a teacher with a master's degree -- typically takes from 10 to 20 years to reach, depending on the district.

A teacher reaches $100,630 in Fox Chapel in the 19th year and $100,571 in North Allegheny in part in the 15th year and in full the 16th year. This amount does not count money teachers can earn for extra work, such as coaching and curriculum writing.

This coming fall, teachers in 17 of the 42 suburban school districts in Allegheny County will be making at least $90,000 a year at the career rate.

Twelve of those districts have negotiated pay schedules for 2010-11: East Allegheny, $91,706; Fox Chapel Area, $98,380; Keystone Oaks, $90,311; Montour, $97,538; North Allegheny, $98,305; North Hills, $90,031; Pine-Richland, $93,454 (preliminary number); Plum, $94,400; Steel Valley, $90,888; Upper St. Clair; $95,500; West Mifflin, $94,400; and Woodland Hills, $90,000.

In addition, four districts that have not reached agreements for 2010-11 already had career rates above $90,000 in 2009-10. They are Bethel Park, $92,548; Moon, $92,685; Mt. Lebanon, $94,219; and West Jefferson Hills, $91,294.

One other district, Chartiers Valley, paid teachers at the career rate $90,757 in 2008-09 and has not reached a new contract yet.

Pay varies widely among school districts -- and within districts.

The lowest career rates are in high-poverty districts, including Wilkinsburg, where career rate teachers this fall will earn $75,570; Duquesne, with a career rate of $77,409 this fall; and Sto-Rox, with a career rate of $78,180.

Many teachers in all districts make less than the career rate, largely because of the number of years it takes to reach the top.

In 2007-08, for example, when the career rate was $91,750 in Fox Chapel, the district's average teacher pay was $61,807 a year, with an average of 13.9 years of experience.

Even in 2011-12 when the career rate will be $100,630 in the 19th year, a Fox Chapel teacher with a master's degree at Step 10 will earn $56,417 and at Step 15 will earn $69,297. Like many contracts, the annual step raises get bigger approaching the top step -- in this case, the 19th year.

If the tentative agreement for Pittsburgh teachers is approved Monday, the district's career rate -- which was $79,800 in 2009-10 -- will grow to $81,300 in the coming year and gradually rise by $1,500 a year to $87,300 in 2014-15. Pittsburgh teachers reach the career rate partway through their 10th year and fully realize it in the 11th year.

In addition to the career rate, Pittsburgh also offers two special payments totaling $4,200 for longtime teachers: the teachers/professionals increment and the longevity increment, which would bring the total for these teachers this fall to $85,500 a year or $91,500 a year in 2014-15.

The TPI of $2,000 a year goes to those who have completed 14 years of teaching within the district or five years at the contract's top step.

The longevity increment of $2,200 a year is for those who have completed 22 or more years of public school teaching. Those teachers also must have spent either the last five years teaching in Pittsburgh Public Schools or have spent 14 of their 22 public school teaching years in Pittsburgh, with the last two in the city district.

While Pittsburgh's career rate isn't at the top in Allegheny County, one of its advantages for teachers is that the top step is reached in part in 10 years and in full in 11, the shortest time of any teacher contract in Allegheny County.

In North Allegheny, teachers at Step 10 with a master's degree will earn $55,084 this fall. At Step 14, they will earn $58,702.Not until they reach their 16th year do they exceed Pittsburgh's pay at Step 10.

Teacher salary schedules traditionally are based on the number of years of experience -- expressed in steps -- and the amount of education, such as a bachelor's degree, bachelor's degree plus 30 credits of additional study, master's equivalent, master's degree and doctorate.

If the city's tentative agreement is approved, the pay of teachers hired in Pittsburgh after July 1 -- as well as a relatively small number who sign up for various incentive programs -- won't be based on education level but instead will be based on performance.

However, most existing Pittsburgh teachers will still be paid the traditional way.

In the traditional teacher contract, there often is a sizable increase in pay when the teacher moves from the next-to-last step to the last step.

Pittsburgh has a large "bump" step. A Pittsburgh teacher with a master's degree who was at Step 9 this school year made $50,790, but at Step 10 this fall will move toward the top step in two stages, being paid a pro-rated $65,945 part of the year and a pro-rated $81,300 the rest of the year. That positions the teacher to be at the top step for the entire 11th year, which will be $82,800 in 2011-12.

Contracts also vary in how many days teachers work and various benefits, including how much teachers contribute to health care.

Most teachers in both Fox Chapel Area and North Allegheny work 195 days. Pittsburgh teachers work 192 days.

Contracts also vary as to how much teachers pay for health insurance.

In most county school districts, teachers pay a flat monthly rate or a percentage of the premium for health insurance, the amount depending on the type of health plan selected.

In Pittsburgh, for coverage through the rest of this calendar year, teachers are contributing 5.99 percent to 11.38 percent of the premium costs, depending on the plan selected. That amounts to about $63 to $143 each month for a family plan.

In suburban school districts, the percentage of contribution by teachers to health care premiums this fall generally ranges between 3 percent and 6.5 percent of the health insurance premium, or from about $20 to $130 a month for a family policy, depending on the district, the medical plan and the contract year.

All of the suburban districts in Allegheny County except North Allegheny receive their medical insurance through the Allegheny County Schools Health Insurance Consortium. Pittsburgh has its own program and is self-insured.

Of districts with contracts in place for this fall, starting salaries in Allegheny County school districts this fall range from $35,670 in South Allegheny to $45,319 in East Allegheny. The first step is open in North Hills.

In Pittsburgh, this fall, teachers will start at $39,000 for "Step A," which includes training at a new academy.

Education writer Eleanor Chute: echute@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1955.


Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10164/1065333-298.stm#ixzz1Frmgl3bX
What a shame, this gigs almost up!

PoliCon
03-06-2011, 08:15 PM
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10164/1065333-298.stm

What a shame, this gigs almost up!

Take a guess how many school districts there are in Allegheny county. Take a wild guess.

Rockntractor
03-06-2011, 08:31 PM
Take a guess how many school districts there are in Allegheny county. Take a wild guess.

I really don't give a rats ass.

PoliCon
03-06-2011, 08:57 PM
I really don't give a rats ass.

Of course not. Wouldn't want a silly little thing like facts shatter your illusions.

Rockntractor
03-06-2011, 09:01 PM
Of course not. Wouldn't want a silly little thing like facts shatter your illusions.

I just posted an article from your local newspaper listing all the facts, hours , pay scale, benefits, I'm not going to believe you over the article.

Odysseus
03-06-2011, 09:06 PM
I don't approve of that, but then I am amazed at the government jobs which allow one to theoretically retire at 38 or 43 years old simply because he has 20 or 25 years in. Is there something magical about that? My dad worked until he was 70 before he retired and my mom retired at 65.

However, when you consider the pay and severance packages that school superintendents get, and the fact that they are often hired even though they come from some system they ruined or did little to make better , the pay and benefits to teachers seems reasonable. And when you compare all of this, because you would have to add the salaries of all these people, to the pay packages of some of these nepotistic CEO types who sit on each others' board and vote themselves millions, well, it's all crumbs under the table.

Police, fire and military should be the only groups that should have 20 and out retirements, because the physical demands of the job age you. I've got E-7s who are on their second set of knees after years of daily runs and other PT, not to mention jump status. Show me a ranger or SF guy with more than 20 years of service, and I'll show you a lower body skeleton that looks like it's over 60.

PoliCon
03-06-2011, 09:11 PM
I just posted an article from your local newspaper listing all the facts, hours , pay scale, benefits, I'm not going to believe you over the article.

You mean this?


Most teachers in both Fox Chapel Area and North Allegheny work 195 days. Pittsburgh teachers work 192 days. That's 3 - THREE districts out of 43 in Allegheny county alone and nearly 100 in the area. But lets go with the numbers from your article. That gives 65 days of "vacation" a year - which does not measure up to what Mrs Smith was claiming.

wilbur
03-06-2011, 09:14 PM
140 teacher retirement requests approved

The emeritus program gives one full year’s salary paid over three years. That is in addition to pension benefits. In return, the retiree provides 10 days of service to the district each year during that time. The emeritus program is something that has been negotiated into the teachers’ contract through collective bargaining.

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/140-green-bay-teachers-looking-to-retire

To put it into an easier to understand way, Public School Teachers in Green Bay can retire, join an “emeritus program,” and earn a full years pay for working 30 days over 3 years. I kid you not, this is a real program, and 140 Green Bay teachers have applied this year.

Now, State Senate Democrats are defending this sort of collective bargaining, where no one is on the side of the taxpayer!

Hmmm.... That's cool. I think we should be paying our teachers more like we pay pro basketball players.... so this just doesnt go quite far enough. Not even remotely.

Nevermind all that though... lets fight the estate tax tooth and nail, while quibbling over teacher salaries and benefits. Makes perfect sense.

NJCardFan
03-07-2011, 12:17 AM
Hmmm.... That's cool. I think we should be paying our teachers more like we pay pro basketball players.... so this just doesnt go quite far enough. Not even remotely.

Nevermind all that though... lets fight the estate tax tooth and nail, while quibbling over teacher salaries and benefits. Makes perfect sense.

So $100K isn't enough? Am I underpaid? I work the whole year and not part and I put my life on the line. If a teacher fails, a kid does not learn something. If I fail in my duties, someone might die.

Adam Wood
03-07-2011, 07:53 AM
well lets work off the standard 52 week year which gives us 260 work days out of the 365 total days each year. Of those 260 days - 180 is the MINIMUM required by the state of PA for a full school year. Most districts include an extra 3-5 or so in case of snow days. My district runs a 184 day school year. Now those are only the days the KIDS are in school. Each month teachers are required to put in an extra day - those are called in service days - adding 12 days to the teachers calendar. (196) Add parent/teacher conference days twice a year (198) and the two weeks of set up in preparation for the kids coming in - (208) and the three days at the end of the year for finishing up end of the year records - (211) - that leaves teachers with roughly 49 "off" days a year. BUT WAIT! There's more! Over Christmas break and Thanksgiving break and spring break/Easter break and on weekends we are expected to correct tests and papers and write lessons . . . . so in reality those 49 days are not all "vacation days."

And that is still five to ten times what pretty much any other profession gets.

wilbur
03-07-2011, 08:30 AM
So $100K isn't enough? Am I underpaid? I work the whole year and not part and I put my life on the line. If a teacher fails, a kid does not learn something. If I fail in my duties, someone might die.

Maybe you are underpaid.

Though if a teacher succeeds... you might *actually* have less people to guard.

NJCardFan
03-07-2011, 08:42 AM
Maybe you are underpaid.

Though if a teacher succeeds... you might *actually* have less people to guard.

Well, considering that I have doctors and some other highly educated people in prison, this fails.

Being a public sector employee, here's how I think it should work. Our contracts run for 4 years. Each renewal cycle, proposals should be laid out, then the inevitable compromise, then after a contract is settled, it should be made public and voted on by the voting public. Just the financial aspect of a contract. If the public says yes, then we get a raise. If they say no, we're beat. After all, it's their money that's being shelled out.

Odysseus
03-07-2011, 10:02 AM
Hmmm.... That's cool. I think we should be paying our teachers more like we pay pro basketball players.... so this just doesnt go quite far enough. Not even remotely.

Nevermind all that though... lets fight the estate tax tooth and nail, while quibbling over teacher salaries and benefits. Makes perfect sense.

Remind me again how you aren't a liberal?

Well, considering that I have doctors and some other highly educated people in prison, this fails.

Being a public sector employee, here's how I think it should work. Our contracts run for 4 years. Each renewal cycle, proposals should be laid out, then the inevitable compromise, then after a contract is settled, it should be made public and voted on by the voting public. Just the financial aspect of a contract. If the public says yes, then we get a raise. If they say no, we're beat. After all, it's their money that's being shelled out.

Works for me.

noonwitch
03-07-2011, 03:38 PM
Must be, because the only ones I can find are military. Believe it or not, as people age, they find it more difficult to maintain the standard physical requirements of military life, so we allow them to retire after 20 or 25 years of hard service to our country. If you are so jealous of that, see your local recruiter. Personally, I have no problem with paying taxes to support those that gave so much to our country. Oh, and they only get 30 days vacation a year, teachers get 3x that.


I started with the state when I was young, 22 years old. I will have 24 years of service in May of this year. Under our state's policy, I can retire anytime after I have ten years of service, but I cannot collect my pension until I am 55. Given that, I plan to work at least until I'm 55, maybe longer, depending on other issues like house payments.

There was an early retirment package offered in the fall, that most people who are 5-10 years older than me took advantage of. Under that plan, a combination of age and years of service must equal 80. That would allow people to retire in their mid 50s (and many who did are in their 50s), but it really doesn't allow for someone in their 40s to retire.

Rockntractor
03-07-2011, 05:21 PM
I started with the state when I was young, 22 years old. I will have 24 years of service in May of this year. Under our state's policy, I can retire anytime after I have ten years of service, but I cannot collect my pension until I am 55. Given that, I plan to work at least until I'm 55, maybe longer, depending on other issues like house payments.

There was an early retirment package offered in the fall, that most people who are 5-10 years older than me took advantage of. Under that plan, a combination of age and years of service must equal 80. That would allow people to retire in their mid 50s (and many who did are in their 50s), but it really doesn't allow for someone in their 40s to retire.
You are much too young to retire, early retirement ages people prematurely, often they get sick and depressed.

PoliCon
03-07-2011, 09:51 PM
And that is still five to ten times what pretty much any other profession gets.

And do you think that teachers should get less?

PoliCon
03-07-2011, 09:53 PM
Being a public sector employee, here's how I think it should work. Our contracts run for 4 years. Each renewal cycle, proposals should be laid out, then the inevitable compromise, then after a contract is settled, it should be made public and voted on by the voting public. Just the financial aspect of a contract. If the public says yes, then we get a raise. If they say no, we're beat. After all, it's their money that's being shelled out.

EXACTLY.

RobJohnson
03-08-2011, 03:02 AM
Thank you ma'am. I understand many don't agree with this "early" retirement. I understand but let me offer you a couple of issues.
1. I am 52 years old and still must perform near the level of my 20 year old Soldiers. I get a small break due to age adjusted standards but I still must attend and do physical training 5 times a week. I run better than most of the younger Soldiers but I assure you that I feel the pain more than them. Army equipment is retired much earlier and is not expected to perform like the new equipment.

2. I have spent considerable time away from my family, God bless them, and cannot get that time back. My son and daughter's birthdays and significant events won't come again.

I don't regret my lifestyle but I don't believe that my civilian counterparts should begrudge me a 20 (I'm going on 25 years) year retirement as though my career were equivalent to theirs.

Thank you for your service.

RobJohnson
03-08-2011, 03:06 AM
OOOHHH so you assume that because kids are off on a given day that the teachers are off too?

I know they are not. I also know that teachers do not stop working once the school bell rings...they take work home with them. There are papers to grade, lesson plans to write, etc...during the school year the days are long and time with their own children and families suffers in a lot of cases. Some teachers take on coaching or other duties for a little extra cash, but if you do the math, they are making about five bucks an hour with all the time they put in for these extra duties... I'm not a huge fan of public education, but God Bless our teachers...they help shape the future and are often the only positive role model a child sees that day.....

RobJohnson
03-08-2011, 03:15 AM
Though if a teacher succeeds... you might *actually* have less people to guard.

End times are here....I agree!

:D

Adam Wood
03-08-2011, 04:33 AM
And do you think that teachers should get less?If they were in Nashville, I would say "absolutely!" Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania are not my concern per se, since I live in neither and (theoretically) neither affects me personally.

Regardless, that is not the topic I was discussing. The point was that even if teachers try to account for in-service days and work they take home at night (as if that's the only profession in the world in which people bring their work home with them at night), they still have a massive amount of time off from work that would be the envy of anyone else in pretty much any other profession. I would be delighted to have 45 paid days off per year. Nine weeks? Holy crap! What would I do with myself? For your something-less-than-49-days-off, I get a blistering five. Few people outside of teaching get more than ten working days off per year.

Hence, what I said: by your own reckoning, you get five to ten times as much time off as most people in most other professions. I don't begrudge you for it in the least. It's your time; enjoy it. But please don't gripe to me or others when people point out that you get a boatload of paid time off each year. You do get a ton of time off, and there's no point in trying to deny it.

noonwitch
03-08-2011, 08:45 AM
You are much too young to retire, early retirement ages people prematurely, often they get sick and depressed.



I'm not even ready to transfer to an easy job. A lot of my coworkers who are younger and have a lot less time than me are doing so, because of the vacancies created by all the retirements. I personally am still enjoying the challenges of this job.

But one more bad fall off someone's porch or trip over an uneven sidewalk could change that. Then I'd want a desk job, with no field work and no court hearings to attend.

RobJohnson
03-08-2011, 09:42 AM
If they were in Nashville, I would say "absolutely!" Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania are not my concern per se, since I live in neither and (theoretically) neither affects me personally.

Regardless, that is not the topic I was discussing. The point was that even if teachers try to account for in-service days and work they take home at night (as if that's the only profession in the world in which people bring their work home with them at night), they still have a massive amount of time off from work that would be the envy of anyone else in pretty much any other profession. I would be delighted to have 45 paid days off per year. Nine weeks? Holy crap! What would I do with myself? For your something-less-than-49-days-off, I get a blistering five. Few people outside of teaching get more than ten working days off per year.

Hence, what I said: by your own reckoning, you get five to ten times as much time off as most people in most other professions. I don't begrudge you for it in the least. It's your time; enjoy it. But please don't gripe to me or others when people point out that you get a boatload of paid time off each year. You do get a ton of time off, and there's no point in trying to deny it.


I know fire fighters that get more days off then teachers. It's not uncommon for a Las Vegas firefighter to make over 200k a year...some even more. I could go to work and sleep for 300k a year...

I know phamracists that get 156 days off a year and I know others that get 168 days off & they don't take any work home with them...

RobJohnson
03-08-2011, 09:43 AM
I'm not even ready to transfer to an easy job. A lot of my coworkers who are younger and have a lot less time than me are doing so, because of the vacancies created by all the retirements. I personally am still enjoying the challenges of this job.

But one more bad fall off someone's porch or trip over an uneven sidewalk could change that. Then I'd want a desk job, with no field work and no court hearings to attend.

Sorry to hear about the OTJ injuries. Ouch!

Rockntractor
03-08-2011, 10:09 AM
I'm not even ready to transfer to an easy job. A lot of my coworkers who are younger and have a lot less time than me are doing so, because of the vacancies created by all the retirements. I personally am still enjoying the challenges of this job.

But one more bad fall off someone's porch or trip over an uneven sidewalk could change that. Then I'd want a desk job, with no field work and no court hearings to attend.

I know what you mean, falling down isn't always as simple as just getting back up, like it used to be.

Adam Wood
03-08-2011, 10:15 AM
I know fire fighters that get more days off then teachers. It's not uncommon for a Las Vegas firefighter to make over 200k a year...some even more. I could go to work and sleep for 300k a year...

I know phamracists that get 156 days off a year and I know others that get 168 days off & they don't take any work home with them...They get more than half of the year off? I'm having a hard time believing that. That's thirty-one weeks and one day of vacation, meaning that they only work a little over twenty-one weeks out of the year.

Check your math.

Odysseus
03-08-2011, 12:09 PM
If they were in Nashville, I would say "absolutely!" Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania are not my concern per se, since I live in neither and (theoretically) neither affects me personally.

Regardless, that is not the topic I was discussing. The point was that even if teachers try to account for in-service days and work they take home at night (as if that's the only profession in the world in which people bring their work home with them at night), they still have a massive amount of time off from work that would be the envy of anyone else in pretty much any other profession. I would be delighted to have 45 paid days off per year. Nine weeks? Holy crap! What would I do with myself? For your something-less-than-49-days-off, I get a blistering five. Few people outside of teaching get more than ten working days off per year.

Hence, what I said: by your own reckoning, you get five to ten times as much time off as most people in most other professions. I don't begrudge you for it in the least. It's your time; enjoy it. But please don't gripe to me or others when people point out that you get a boatload of paid time off each year. You do get a ton of time off, and there's no point in trying to deny it.

We get 30 days paid leave per year, but good luck using it. We can rollover 75 days total, plus another 30 after a deployment, but I don't know anyone who isn't way over their allocation. I've got 80 days and I'll be in a use or lose situation at the end of the FY, because the OP-tempo doesn't let us take the time off. Either the Army would have to shut down for me to take that much leave, or I'd have to. Teachers make as much as field grade officers, get the summers off and get shot at a lot less than we do (even in Newark). And, let's remember that American educational stats have been on a downward slide for the last four decades. If teachers want to keep their perks, they can earn them with better test results for their students.

noonwitch
03-08-2011, 12:42 PM
We get 30 days paid leave per year, but good luck using it. We can rollover 75 days total, plus another 30 after a deployment, but I don't know anyone who isn't way over their allocation. I've got 80 days and I'll be in a use or lose situation at the end of the FY, because the OP-tempo doesn't let us take the time off. Either the Army would have to shut down for me to take that much leave, or I'd have to. Teachers make as much as field grade officers, get the summers off and get shot at a lot less than we do (even in Newark). And, let's remember that American educational stats have been on a downward slide for the last four decades. If teachers want to keep their perks, they can earn them with better test results for their students.



Let's unionize the military!


As a conservative, it could be fun to push for a union when a liberal who is supported by unions is your CIC!

lacarnut
03-08-2011, 12:42 PM
Teachers in my part of the woods can take sabatical leave for a year provided they have so many years (10 or more I think). That means they can the whole year off and get partial pay, not full pay. Don't know any other field in the private sector that allows that. Plus, I doubt any teacher teaches more than six hours a day.

PoliCon
03-08-2011, 01:30 PM
If they were in Nashville, I would say "absolutely!" Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania are not my concern per se, since I live in neither and (theoretically) neither affects me personally.

Regardless, that is not the topic I was discussing. The point was that even if teachers try to account for in-service days and work they take home at night (as if that's the only profession in the world in which people bring their work home with them at night), they still have a massive amount of time off from work that would be the envy of anyone else in pretty much any other profession. I would be delighted to have 45 paid days off per year. Nine weeks? Holy crap! What would I do with myself? For your something-less-than-49-days-off, I get a blistering five. Few people outside of teaching get more than ten working days off per year.

Hence, what I said: by your own reckoning, you get five to ten times as much time off as most people in most other professions. I don't begrudge you for it in the least. It's your time; enjoy it. But please don't gripe to me or others when people point out that you get a boatload of paid time off each year. You do get a ton of time off, and there's no point in trying to deny it.

5 to 10 times?? You guys seem to love counting weekends into that total . . . .


BTW - You know those little darlings parents want out of the house more each year because they can't stand to put up with them for 2 months over the summer? Yea imagine how we feel having to put up with the the whole rest of the year - and put up with parents as well who think their kid can do no evil while at the same time the little bastards could give satan lessons. :rolleyes:

RobJohnson
03-08-2011, 10:41 PM
They get more than half of the year off? I'm having a hard time believing that. That's thirty-one weeks and one day of vacation, meaning that they only work a little over twenty-one weeks out of the year.

Check your math.

No need to check the math, I help write the schedule. :)

Yes, half the year off. 7 days on, 7 days off for the overnight guys at the 24 hour stores...with very good pay...plus up to five weeks of vacation on top of that! So more then half the year....and don't forget paid sick days & holiday pay (sometimes they work them, sometimes they get the holiday off, depending on availabiltiy)

I can't say much more. I like my job. :D:D

RobJohnson
03-08-2011, 10:45 PM
5 to 10 times?? You guys seem to love counting weekends into that total . . . .


BTW - You know those little darlings parents want out of the house more each year because they can't stand to put up with them for 2 months over the summer? Yea imagine how we feel having to put up with the the whole rest of the year - and put up with parents as well who think their kid can do no evil while at the same time the little bastards could give satan lessons. :rolleyes:

Teaching is a hard job, no doubt about it. I know a lot of teachers that are being laid off in Nevada..class sizes are growing, making it tougher on the teachers that are lucky to still have jobs...God Bless our teachers.

PoliCon
03-08-2011, 11:49 PM
Teaching is a hard job, no doubt about it. I know a lot of teachers that are being laid off in Nevada..class sizes are growing, making it tougher on the teachers that are lucky to still have jobs...God Bless our teachers.

It would instantly become easier if they would simply reinstate corporal punishment.

Rockntractor
03-08-2011, 11:59 PM
It would instantly become easier if they would simply reinstate corporal punishment.

That isn't necessary, I would think you could do a better job without them having to beat you!

Adam Wood
03-09-2011, 01:04 AM
5 to 10 times?? You guys seem to love counting weekends into that total . . . .Actually, I'm just discounting the same weekends that you're discounting. You point out that you have 184 school days, plus in-service days, parent conferences, and late-summer prep for a total of 208 work days per year (your math, if I'm reading it right).

I get one week of paid vacation per year. That's 52 X 5 days per week, or 260 work days, minus five, for 255. I get off New Years' (unless it falls on a weekend), Memorial Day, July 4 (unless it falls on a weekend), Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and Christmas (unless it falls on a weekend), for a total of six possible additional holidays per year, meaning 249 work days per year. Hence, in the "best possible" year for me (all holidays fall during the week), I work 249 days to your 208, or 41 days more. Reversing the math, taking my vacation time out, then I get 5 days of vacation time to your 49 days per year off (again, your math). Near enough as makes odds, 49 is ten times five. If I were to get two weeks of vacation per year, then I would get ten days of vacation to your 49, again, near enough as makes odds, 49 is five times ten. Most working Americans get either one or two weeks per year of paid vacation. Hence, you get five to ten times as much vacation as most people get in a year.

Like I said, I don't begrudge you that time. You've worked out your gig, and I'm cool with anyone working out a gig that works well for them. And I certainly do not discount that teaching is a hard job. If it was easy, everyone would do it. But, like I said, let's not pretend that you don't get a boatload of vacation time, because compared to most working Americans, you do. That's just what the numbers are, even by your own math.

RobJohnson
03-09-2011, 02:40 AM
That isn't necessary, I would think you could do a better job without them having to beat you!


LOL :D

PoliCon
03-09-2011, 09:13 AM
Actually, I'm just discounting the same weekends that you're discounting. You point out that you have 184 school days, plus in-service days, parent conferences, and late-summer prep for a total of 208 work days per year (your math, if I'm reading it right).

I get one week of paid vacation per year. That's 52 X 5 days per week, or 260 work days, minus five, for 255. I get off New Years' (unless it falls on a weekend), Memorial Day, July 4 (unless it falls on a weekend), Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and Christmas (unless it falls on a weekend), for a total of six possible additional holidays per year, meaning 249 work days per year. Hence, in the "best possible" year for me (all holidays fall during the week), I work 249 days to your 208, or 41 days more. Reversing the math, taking my vacation time out, then I get 5 days of vacation time to your 49 days per year off (again, your math). Near enough as makes odds, 49 is ten times five. If I were to get two weeks of vacation per year, then I would get ten days of vacation to your 49, again, near enough as makes odds, 49 is five times ten. Most working Americans get either one or two weeks per year of paid vacation. Hence, you get five to ten times as much vacation as most people get in a year.

Like I said, I don't begrudge you that time. You've worked out your gig, and I'm cool with anyone working out a gig that works well for them. And I certainly do not discount that teaching is a hard job. If it was easy, everyone would do it. But, like I said, let's not pretend that you don't get a boatload of vacation time, because compared to most working Americans, you do. That's just what the numbers are, even by your own math.

:confused: most of the people I know get 10 days or more vacation time a year . . . .

Adam Wood
03-09-2011, 10:15 AM
:confused: most of the people I know get 10 days or more vacation time a year . . . .Probably because most of the people you know are teachers like you. :p

In a lot of industrial centers, such as Pittsburgh, two weeks and more is somewhat more common, mainly because some union contract has made sure that the guy who has bolted the same seat into the same place for two years straight gets four weeks of vacation a year after two years on the job. Outside of these places, people typically get considerably less vacation time. On average (http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/03/technology/fbvacations0803.biz2/index.htm):
U.S. employees are taking less time off than ever: Not only is the average number of annual vacation days granted to them a mere 12.4 - less than that of the average medieval peasant - but more than a third of us don't even use all of our allotted time off.
So two and a half weeks is the entire national average for everyone working, regardless of age, time on the job, etc. That number is skewed up by, well, folks like you who have a lot more than other folks and by a lot of union labor contracts that have absurd amounts of vacation after a couple of years on the job. I can't find it again this morning, but last night I found someone who had "normed" the number based upon the more typical worker's age and the more typical worker's time on the job, pulling out outliers like teachers who have summers off and UAW workers who get something like 70 vacation days away from the picket lines and rubber rooms, and it was something like 8.1 paid vacation days per year for your "typical" American.

PoliCon
03-09-2011, 10:56 AM
Probably because most of the people you know are teachers like you. :p

In a lot of industrial centers, such as Pittsburgh, two weeks and more is somewhat more common, mainly because some union contract has made sure that the guy who has bolted the same seat into the same place for two years straight gets four weeks of vacation a year after two years on the job. Outside of these places, people typically get considerably less vacation time. On average (http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/03/technology/fbvacations0803.biz2/index.htm):
So two and a half weeks is the entire national average for everyone working, regardless of age, time on the job, etc. That number is skewed up by, well, folks like you who have a lot more than other folks and by a lot of union labor contracts that have absurd amounts of vacation after a couple of years on the job. I can't find it again this morning, but last night I found someone who had "normed" the number based upon the more typical worker's age and the more typical worker's time on the job, pulling out outliers like teachers who have summers off and UAW workers who get something like 70 vacation days away from the picket lines and rubber rooms, and it was something like 8.1 paid vacation days per year for your "typical" American.


4 weeks? That's generous. My Brother in Law works in management for a national restaurant chain and he gets 3. Anyhow - As I've pointed out here our "summers off" add up to less than 2 months and I always spend that time doing some sort of mission work if I can. :)