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Perilloux
03-12-2011, 08:20 AM
UNIONS THREATEN BUSINESS (http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesykes/117764004.html?blog=y#commentbox)

By Charlie Sykes

Story Created: Mar 10, 2011
Story Updated: Mar 10, 2011

That's a nice business you got there. Pity if anything were to happen to it if, say, you didn't toe the line and denounce Governor Walker like we're asking nice-like.

March 10, 2011
Mr. Tom Ellis, President
Marshall & Ilsley Corporation
770 N. Water Street
Milwaukee, WI 53202
SENT VIA FASCIMILE AND REGULAR MAIL

Dear Mr. Ellis:
As you undoubtedly know, Governor Walker recently proposed a “budget
adjustment bill” to eviscerate public employees’ right to collectively bargain in
Wisconsin. ..

As you also know, Scott Walker did not campaign on this issue when he ran for
office. If he had, we are confident that you would not be listed among his largest
contributors. As such, we are contacting you now to request your support.

The undersigned groups would like your company to publicly oppose Governor
Walker’s efforts to virtually eliminate collective bargaining for public employees in
Wisconsin. While we appreciate that you may need some time to consider this
request, we ask for your response by March 17. In the event that you do not
respond to this request by that date, we will assume that you stand with
Governor Walker and against the teachers, nurses, police officers, fire fighters,
and other dedicated public employees who serve our communities.



More at the link.

NJCardFan
03-12-2011, 09:41 AM
I'm still waiting for someone to show me where it is a right to collectively bargain. Anyone? Wilbur? WeeWee? TNO? Hazldick?

fettpett
03-12-2011, 09:42 AM
weiner boy probably would try to, but since he's banned, he can't

wilbur
03-12-2011, 09:49 AM
I'm still waiting for someone to show me where it is a right to collectively bargain. Anyone? Wilbur? WeeWee? TNO? Hazldick?

Maybe look near the spot where its written that corporations treated as persons under the law.

NJCardFan
03-12-2011, 09:54 AM
Maybe look near the spot where its written that corporations treated as persons under the law.

Once again, there is no right to collectively bargain. Read the constitution again and cite me chapter and verse where it says so.

wilbur
03-12-2011, 10:07 AM
Once again, there is no right to collectively bargain. Read the constitution again and cite me chapter and verse where it says so.

You don't understand the constitution - its a document that limits the scope and powers of the federal government, not a document that enumerates the rights of the people.

So I'm afraid that the burden is actually upon YOU to cite chapter and verse, where in the constitution it says that restricting the ability of citizens to collectively bargain is a power that the federal government has.

fettpett
03-12-2011, 10:26 AM
http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/overview


Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


seems pretty clear that they meant it to reflect the rights of the PEOPLE

Arroyo_Doble
03-12-2011, 10:29 AM
seems pretty clear that they meant it to reflect the rights of the PEOPLE

Then I'm going with the 9th.

NJCardFan
03-12-2011, 10:33 AM
You don't understand the constitution - its a document that limits the scope and powers of the federal government, not a document that enumerates the rights of the people.

So I'm afraid that the burden is actually upon YOU to cite chapter and verse, where in the constitution it says that restricting the ability of citizens to collectively bargain is a power that the federal government has.

*sigh* The Constitution does limit the scope of the Federal government, yes, then show me in each states Constitution where it says that collective bargaining is a right. I'll wait. Oh, and to answer your question it doesn't say either way hence it is not AN ENUMERATED RIGHT. Wow you have a thick skull. Collective or individual bargaining is up to the entities you moron.

Rockntractor
03-12-2011, 10:37 AM
Then I'm going with the 9th.

I shall use the second to chase you back to your mother ship!
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/Marvin-the-Martian-Telescope-Salt-Pepper-Shakers_6220-m.jpg

NJCardFan
03-12-2011, 10:42 AM
Oh, and you have no more a right to collectively bargain than you have a right to work anywhere, dipshit.

Arroyo_Doble
03-12-2011, 10:42 AM
Oh, and to answer your question it doesn't say either way hence it is not AN ENUMERATED RIGHT.

I have heard it said that the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

NJCardFan
03-12-2011, 10:45 AM
I have heard it said that the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Do you even read what I type? That's what "it's up to the entities" means you dope. The point is that these liberal assholes are acting like there is a law that states specifically that it is the right of the employees to collectively bargain and there is no such enumerated right.

Rockntractor
03-12-2011, 10:51 AM
I have heard it said that the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

You can't initiate a right at the expense of my rights.

Arroyo_Doble
03-12-2011, 11:00 AM
Do you even read what I type? That's what "it's up to the entities" means you dope. The point is that these liberal assholes are acting like there is a law that states specifically that it is the right of the employees to collectively bargain and there is no such enumerated right.

My point is a right does not have to be enumerated in the Constitution in order to exist.

Whether or not collective bargaining is a "right" in same way as "privacy" or "freedom of association" would have to be argued using precedent and legal opinion.

But just because John Adams his ownself didn't write it down with his mighty Quill of Justice in our governing document does not automatically mean it doesn't exist.

Apocalypse
03-12-2011, 11:02 AM
I have heard it said that the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The union’s Executive Council of A.F.L.-C.I.O in 1959

“In terms of accepted collective bargaining procedures, government workers have no right beyond the authority to petition Congress — a right available to every citizen.”

Arroyo_Doble
03-12-2011, 11:04 AM
The union’s Executive Council of A.F.L.-C.I.O in 1959

“In terms of accepted collective bargaining procedures, government workers have no right beyond the authority to petition Congress — a right available to every citizen.”

Can they get together with their co-workers and, I don't know, elect some representative to act on their behalf in petitioning the government?

txradioguy
03-12-2011, 11:09 AM
Can they get together with their co-workers and, I don't know, elect some representative to act on their behalf in petitioning the government?

Why do that when they've already got the DNC in their back pocket and the President's fund raising front group helping them out?

Apocalypse
03-12-2011, 11:10 AM
Can they get together with their co-workers and, I don't know, elect some representative to act on their behalf in petitioning the government?

They do not have the right to sit down with those government officials and discuss how much they will be paid. For no other workers in the private sector may do this.

They may only petition for the government to look into weather they are being fairly paid under current laws that affect every one.

They may not demand for free Viagra paid for by the tax payers. For no other workers in the private sector may do this.

Apocalypse
03-12-2011, 11:25 AM
I have heard it said that the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Put simply, collective bargaining isn't a right in Wisconsin. Rather, it's a privilege that's been statutorily granted by the state Legislature, which the Legislature may, as it is now, take away. Contrast that with constitutional rights, which no legislature can nullify.

Constitutionally Speaking
03-12-2011, 11:43 AM
You don't understand the constitution - its a document that limits the scope and powers of the federal government, not a document that enumerates the rights of the people.

So I'm afraid that the burden is actually upon YOU to cite chapter and verse, where in the constitution it says that restricting the ability of citizens to collectively bargain is a power that the federal government has.

Yet you favor unlimited and unchecked federal power when it comes to things YOU want, like health care, welfare, regulations, restrictions on private property etc.

No one is arguing that the federal government restrict collective bargaining - just that the states don't have to RECOGNIZE that TACTIC.

Tecate
03-12-2011, 11:44 AM
I'd be tickled to death if people would get even half this upset at the Wall St. criminal banksters and their hundreds of trillions of dollars in phony derivatives.

When you start peeling away the layers of the onion and see where these pension funds lost a shit pot full of money...

/thread jack

Rockntractor
03-12-2011, 11:53 AM
I'd be tickled to death if people would get even half this upset at the Wall St. criminal banksters and their hundreds of trillions of dollars in phony derivatives.

/thread jack

Many of us were, so start giggling. We don't have a problem with just one pet issue so be happy when any of them are addressed.

Tecate
03-12-2011, 11:53 AM
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i228/Loveways/clip_image002_thumb2.gif

wilbur
03-12-2011, 12:16 PM
*sigh* The Constitution does limit the scope of the Federal government, yes, then show me in each states Constitution where it says that collective bargaining is a right. I'll wait. Oh, and to answer your question it doesn't say either way hence it is not AN ENUMERATED RIGHT. Wow you have a thick skull. Collective or individual bargaining is up to the entities you moron.

The state constitutions serve essentially the same purposes that the federal constitution does.

But again, this whole pony trick is a horrendously misguided fallacy to begin with. Constitutions don't provide an exhaustive list of our rights, and were never meant too. So its no surprise you won't find all - or even most - of our rights enumerated in them. That's exactly what amendment IX was addressing. Explicitly contained in our Bill of Rights is the rejection of this notion that all of our rights would be enumerated in our constitution.

In fact, it was for fear of the possibility that this misguided assumption take hold in the populace, that people like Alexander Hamilton staunchly opposed the idea of a Bill of Rights in the first place.

"It has been several times truly remarked, that bills of rights are in their origin, stipulations between kings and their subjects, abridgments of prerogative in favor of privilege, reservations of rights not surrendered to the prince. " - Alexander Hamilton

So its irrelevant whether collective bargaining rights are in our constitution or not. Its like asking me to point out the section in Einstein's theory of special relativity where it says I can't eat desert for breakfast. Total nonsense.

PoliCon
03-12-2011, 01:24 PM
Put simply, collective bargaining isn't a right in Wisconsin. Rather, it's a privilege that's been statutorily granted by the state Legislature, which the Legislature may, as it is now, take away. Contrast that with constitutional rights, which no legislature can nullify.

constitutional rights can be nullified by the legislature through the amendment process. Natural rights on the other hand are God given and cannot be nullified period.

txradioguy
03-12-2011, 01:31 PM
constitutional rights can be nullified by the legislature through the amendment process. Natural rights on the other hand are God given and cannot be nullified period.

Ahh and there in lies the rub with rubliw...he doesn't believe in God to begin with.

Hence his lack of understanding or acceptance of what I put in bold.

Madisonian
03-12-2011, 02:18 PM
I will grant you that any group of workers has a right to bargain collectively.
However, if one person has a right to join with others to bargain collectively, another must have the right to bargain individually the same as the collective bargainer without being forced to join the union.

Also, should the entity the group is collectively bargaining against decide that what is being requested is beyond what they wish to agree to, the entity should have the right to terminate their association with any or all members of the collective group.

See, with rights also come responsibilities, and most importantly, consequences.
If government is to protect what may be considered the rights of the collective bargainers, they should be as protective of the rights those of whom they are bargaining against.

NJCardFan
03-12-2011, 04:31 PM
My point is a right does not have to be enumerated in the Constitution in order to exist.

Whether or not collective bargaining is a "right" in same way as "privacy" or "freedom of association" would have to be argued using precedent and legal opinion.

But just because John Adams his ownself didn't write it down with his mighty Quill of Justice in our governing document does not automatically mean it doesn't exist.

Um, I take it you're unfamiliar with that little thing called the 4th amendment? And Wilbur, just stop it. "Just because it's not there doesn't mean it doesn't exist." Um, ok. If you say so. You cannot claim anything as a right if it infringes upon the rights of others. In this case, the 'others' are taxpayers. Government workers are paid by tax dollars. On every level. To demand and claim the 'right' to a better pension than the private sector means you have the right to the property of the taxpayers. To demand that you have the right to better medical benefits as the private sector means you claim the right to the property of the taxpayers. This is backward thinking. In fact, these 'rights' these union thugs believe themselves to be privy of, should be at the whims of the taxpayers. I have no problem with granting collective bargaining to government workers as long as the final contract is voted on by the voting public.

Apocalypse
03-12-2011, 04:33 PM
The state constitutions serve essentially the same purposes that the federal constitution does.

But again, this whole pony trick is a horrendously misguided fallacy to begin with. Constitutions don't provide an exhaustive list of our rights, and were never meant too. So its no surprise you won't find all - or even most - of our rights enumerated in them. That's exactly what amendment IX was addressing. Explicitly contained in our Bill of Rights is the rejection of this notion that all of our rights would be enumerated in our constitution.

Bla bla bla...

I didn't have time to respond to this earlier as I was leaving for work.

So if its a Constitutional right we all have then explain why 30 states and the Federal Gov do not allow it?

After all when the unions keep suing and losing arguing that its a right in the constitution in states that do not have collective bargaining. So explain why if its a right in the constitution, that 60% of the states and the feds do not allow it. The Constitution over rides ever other bill.

Apocalypse
03-12-2011, 04:33 PM
Fitting for this thread.

Here is a full list being boycotted by the unions.

http://scottwalkerwatch.com/?page_id=979

Apocalypse
03-30-2011, 11:11 PM
Seems they haven't learned their lessons yet.

http://badgerblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/Union-Grove-union-extortion-letter.jpg
http://badgerblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/Union-Grove-union-extortion-letter-page-2.jpg

If you find these types of tactics as despicably over the top, contact info for you to let them know.

Contact Marty Beil at (608) 836-0024, extension 118 or e-mail him at: mbeil@wseu-24.org or call Jim Parrett at (262) 767-0873 or the AFSCME Council 24 directly by mail to:

AFSCME Council 24

8033 Excelsior Dr. Suite C

Madison, WI 53717

Phone: (608) 836-0024

Fax: (608) 836 – 0222