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megimoo
03-12-2011, 03:58 PM
DAYTON -- The Dayton Police Department is lowering its testing standards for recruits.

It's a move required by the U.S. Department of Justice after it says not enough African-Americans passed the exam.

Dayton is in desperate need of officers to replace dozens of retirees. The hiring process was postponed for months because the D.O.J. rejected the original scores provided by the Dayton Civil Service Board, which administers the test. ....Under the previous requirements, candidates had to get a 66% on part one of the exam and a 72% on part two.....The D.O.J. approved new scoring policy only requires potential police officers to get a 58% and a 63%. That's the equivalent of an ‘F’ and a ‘D’.

“It becomes a safety issue for the people of our community,” said Dayton Fraternal Order of Police President, Randy Beane. “It becomes a safety issue to have an incompetent officer next to you in a life and death situation."....“The NAACP does not support individuals failing a test and then having the opportunity to be gainfully employed,” agreed Dayton NAACP .....The D.O.J. and Civil Service Board declined Dayton’s News Source’s repeat requests for interviews. The lower standards mean 258 more people passed the test. The city won't say how many were minorities.
".......Care to Take a guess ?


http://abc.daytonsnewssource.com/shared/newsroom/top_stories/videos/wkef_vid_6103.shtml

lacarnut
03-12-2011, 04:29 PM
No big surprise there. I worked for the LA Dept of Revenue. Most of the women and blacks I worked with as auditors could not pass or would barely pass the accounting/auditors test. The test was quite hard. The Secretary detailed them into that position. A year later they had the experience and were grandfathered in. Before I left, the test was made easy with yes/no & multiple guess questions with all of the accounting problems removed. The education system in this country keeps going further and further into the crapper. Lowering the standard of policemen is ridiculous. We had a big scandal here about a black female police officer giving test answers to prospective officers before they took the test. You know what they did to her. Nothing.

NJCardFan
03-12-2011, 06:15 PM
It's the same in my department. Wanna take a guess who gets jammed up the most when it comes to undue familiarity and other breeches of security?

Articulate_Ape
03-12-2011, 06:23 PM
Failed the exam to be a heart surgeon? No prob, we'll just lower the bar. :rolleyes:

SaintLouieWoman
03-12-2011, 09:44 PM
There were big disputes that were fought out in the open with the STL Fire Dept. I had a cousin who was a captain in that department who took early retirement as he said that he was afraid to put his life on the line with incompetant coworkers.

Think about it, cops and firemen depending on the others to cover them and then having someone who can't pass a test or show good judgement standing next to them. It's one thing to have a dumber than dirt coworker in an office or somewhere relatively safe and quite another where your life is on the line.

Novaheart
03-12-2011, 10:06 PM
It's the same in my department. Wanna take a guess who gets jammed up the most when it comes to undue familiarity and other breeches of security?

Can you clarify what a low test score means? I doubt that I'm alone in wondering what sort of information we're testing for here. Are we talking about the radio codes and statutes or are we talking about basic skills like a civil service test?

I notice when I am reading the arrest reports online, that there are a lot of misspelled words and incorrect abbreviations, especially in two letter abbreviations for states and countries. They seem to make them up as they go along.

Calypso Jones
03-12-2011, 11:02 PM
This has been going on all over for a long time. It's done for women too.

Novaheart
03-12-2011, 11:27 PM
This has been going on all over for a long time. It's done for women too.

Is a somewhat representative force a legitimate goal?

Around here, police officer is one of the better paycheck type jobs, especially for someone with less than a college degree.

Rockntractor
03-12-2011, 11:37 PM
Is a somewhat representative force a legitimate goal?

Around here, police officer is one of the better paycheck type jobs, especially for someone with less than a college degree.

I don't know about most cities but in Tulsa you need a college degree to be a police officer.

Calypso Jones
03-12-2011, 11:43 PM
Where was it a number of years ago...within the past ten that a city was so in need, allegedly, that they lowered the restrictions for policemen and what they got were a bunch of criminals walking around in police uniforms. New York? Chicago? Seems it was some Northeastern metropolitan area.

megimoo
03-12-2011, 11:49 PM
The original passing scores determined by Civil Service

required candidates to answer 57 of 86 (66 percent) questions correctly on one portion and 73 of 102 (72 percent) on the other. The lowered benchmark requires candidates to answer 50 of 86 (58 percent) questions correctly and 64 of 102 (63 percent) of questions on the other.
snip
The Justice Department’s rejection of the passing scores last month delayed the city’s firefighter’s exam that was slated for April 2. A makeup date has yet to be set for the exam.

The city said it wants to put new hires on the street in both police and fire departments by next year to replace dozens of retirees that have left public safety forces near all-time lows.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/city-agrees-to-lower-test-scores-for-police-exam-1103409.html

NJCardFan
03-13-2011, 02:49 AM
Can you clarify what a low test score means? I doubt that I'm alone in wondering what sort of information we're testing for here. Are we talking about the radio codes and statutes or are we talking about basic skills like a civil service test?

I notice when I am reading the arrest reports online, that there are a lot of misspelled words and incorrect abbreviations, especially in two letter abbreviations for states and countries. They seem to make them up as they go along.

Basic civil service tests. And you should try reading our daily tour reports. Linda #'s would have a field day.

NJCardFan
03-13-2011, 02:50 AM
I don't know about most cities but in Tulsa you need a college degree to be a police officer.

You used to need one to be a State Police officer in NJ until...wanna guess?

noonwitch
03-14-2011, 11:53 AM
I find it kind of interesting that the NAACP is disagreeing with the DOJ on this issue.


Detroit cops go to the Detroit Police Academy. It's still one of the better training programs out there. I don't know what the standards are, though, beyond a high school diploma. Detroit cops are for the most part decent, but there just aren't enough of them to get the job done.

NJCardFan
03-14-2011, 12:01 PM
I don't think there are enough black brain surgeons. I think they should lower the standards for getting into medical school. See how ridiculous a concept this is?

lacarnut
03-14-2011, 12:42 PM
I don't think there are enough black brain surgeons. I think they should lower the standards for getting into medical school. See how ridiculous a concept this is?

Yep, we need more affirmative action for surgeons, police officers and gasp even school teachers.:rolleyes::eek: Test score qualifications should be raised to at least 70. Every civil service job promotion I applied for required a score in the middle to high 80's just to get an interview.

Novaheart
03-14-2011, 12:46 PM
I don't think there are enough black brain surgeons. I think they should lower the standards for getting into medical school. See how ridiculous a concept this is?

That's amusing, but I really don't see the two as the same.

I think there is a legitimate objective to having an approximately representative police force for a variety of reasons. I think the issue here is how a municipality or profession pursues that.

But come to think of it, your joke has an application. Think about infectious diseases. Many black people in the US and Africa promote conspiracy theories which other black people (and probably some white people) believe. These theories generally maintain that certain contagious and deadly diseases disproportionately affecting black people or Africans are deliberate attempts at genocide by "white people who have a history of killing indigenous people". It doesn't matter if it's true, they believe it. If there are no black doctors, then these people cannot be reached. "Who cares?" might work if the consequence was merely their own demise, but the nature of contagious diseases is that they are rarely confined to groups you might consider no great loss.

So yeah, it's kind of important to have black doctors that black people trust. And it's also important to have black police officers for the same reason. Again, the legitimate aim would be to find and nurture blacks so they qualify for the job rather than lower the standards.

lacarnut
03-14-2011, 01:05 PM
That's amusing, but I really don't see the two as the same.

I think there is a legitimate objective to having an approximately representative police force for a variety of reasons. I think the issue here is how a municipality or profession pursues that.

But come to think of it, your joke has an application. Think about infectious diseases. Many black people in the US and Africa promote conspiracy theories which other black people (and probably some white people) believe. These theories generally maintain that certain contagious and deadly diseases disproportionately affecting black people or Africans are deliberate attempts at genocide by "white people who have a history of killing indigenous people". It doesn't matter if it's true, they believe it. If there are no black doctors, then these people cannot be reached. "Who cares?" might work if the consequence was merely their own demise, but the nature of contagious diseases is that they are rarely confined to groups you might consider no great loss.

So yeah, it's kind of important to have black doctors that black people trust. And it's also important to have black police officers for the same reason. Again, the legitimate aim would be to find and nurture blacks so they qualify for the job rather than lower the standards.

It is no joke when you have an incompetent dumb ass as your partner in a life and death situation. Police put themselves in danger on a daily basis. Same is true for the military. If you are too dumb to pass the test regardless of race, he or she should not be hired. Dropping the standards on testing is dangerous and stupid regardless of all the social engineering you seem to espouse.

Odysseus
03-14-2011, 01:14 PM
Failed the exam to be a heart surgeon? No prob, we'll just lower the bar. :rolleyes:
Remember the Bakke decision? Patrick Chavis was one of the five students admitted under the affirmative action program who had weaker qualifications than Allan Bakke. The end result (thanks to http://www.coloringthenews.com/html/preface.html):


On June 19, 1997, the California Medical Board suspended his license to practice medicine, citing his “inability to perform some of the most basic duties required of a physician.” Finding him guilty of gross negligence and incompetence in the cases of three patients—one of whom had died—California Administrative Law Judge Samuel Reyes said that letting him “continue in the practice of organized medicine will endanger the public health, safety and welfare.” Soon after, the Los Angeles District Attorney announced that Chavis was the object of a criminal investigation.

According to medical board investigators, Chavis had engaged in egregious malpractice while performing liposuction procedures on patients in a body-sculpting practice he had started as a side business after taking a cosmetic surgery seminar in Beverly Hills. For doctors looking for easy cash, liposuction had become a lucrative and largely unregulated business, and Chavis’s New Attitude Body Sculpting had flourished, even in hardbitten Compton. But the four day short course Chavis had attended left him inadequately prepared to handle complications. Patients who lived told harrowing tales of Chavis’s post operative neglect when the procedures he had performed went bad.

After one botched procedure, Chavis stashed a patient in his home instead of admitting her to the hospital. Abandoning her for nearly forty hours, the doctor refused to return the frantic phone calls of the patient, who lost nearly 70% of her blood and was admitted to a hospital with a severe abdominal infection. A second patient told an almost identical story: a botched liposuction, massive internal bleeding, and Chavis’s almost inhuman indifference to her suffering. A third patient was not as lucky. After another botched procedure, Chavis left her in his office for four and half hours, her blood pressure plummeting from severe abdominal hemorrhage, which left his clinic floor puddled with blood. By nightfall she was in cardiac arrest and died while her husband rushed her to the hospital.

Medical board investigators also heard from a doctor who had worked with Chavis. Citing “poor impulse control and sensitivity to patients’ pain,” the doctor gave investigators a tape recording of patients screaming horrifically, with Chavis responding, “Don’t talk to the doctor while he is working,” and, “Liar, liar, pants on fire.” In addition, Chavis refused to take responsibility for anything that had happened to his patients. According to investigators, at one point Chavis said that it was the husband of the dead patient who should be brought up on charges, claiming that he had picked her up and put her into a wheelchair after surgery in violation of procedure. At another point he said he was the victim of a racist medical system that didn’t like to see a black doctor do well.

Despite the fact that the black doctor in question was only admitted to college because the system bent over backwards for him, he still played the race card when he was caught. The victims of this kind of idiocy are, of course, the patients of unqualified doctors, but the other victims are the qualified minority professionals who didn't benefit from lowered expectations and quotas, and who have to overcome the stigma created by those who superficially resemble them, but who are otherwise inept or unqualified for their positions of trust.

This has been going on all over for a long time. It's done for women too.
I submit that since children make up roughly one third of the population, the police, fire departments and teaching professions should immediately hire as many children as possible in order to make up this disparity. :rolleyes:

Is a somewhat representative force a legitimate goal?

Around here, police officer is one of the better paycheck type jobs, especially for someone with less than a college degree.
Yes and no. A police force must have members of the communities that it policies, if for no other reason than undercover work. It is also critical that officers know and understand the neighborhoods that they protect. The former requires superficial resemblances, while the latter requires immersion and genuine interest in the community, which is not defined by race, but can appear to be. However, these goods are severely undercut when a force compromises professional values and qualifications in order to fill quotas.

Yep, we need more affirmative action for surgeons, police officers and gasp even school teachers.:rolleyes::eek: Test score qualifications should be raised to at least 70. Every civil service job promotion I applied for required a score in the middle to high 80's just to get an interview.

Several years ago, I was preparing to deploy and we received an officer, MI branch, who had gotten in trouble with her security clearance. She had racked up some debts during a period of unemployment and because of that, her TS clearance was going to be revoked. I was tasked to assist her in drafting her rebuttal. I had her write up the first draft and told her that I would then edit it for format. The document that she gave me was riddled with grammatical and spelling errors and had the worst sentence structure that I had ever seen not written with a spray can on concrete. It was shocking that a captain could get that far without being able to parse a sentence or run spell check. I completely rewrote her appeal and submitted it for her, saving her career. In theater, her NCOIC did most of her work in the office, and I did the daily intel briefings (she mangled English words, much less Arabic, the final straw came when she pronounced "Syria" as "Sur-R-I-uh", with a long I). I had to write her NCOIC's tour award, and I ensured that he got a Bronze Star

Rockntractor
03-14-2011, 01:22 PM
You used to need one to be a State Police officer in NJ until...wanna guess?

We have had a few very bad eggs in the Highway Patrol and we recently had a conspiracy in the police force, but in general they are very professional.

Novaheart
03-14-2011, 02:30 PM
It is no joke when you have an incompetent dumb ass as your partner in a life and death situation. Police put themselves in danger on a daily basis. Same is true for the military. If you are too dumb to pass the test regardless of race, he or she should not be hired. Dropping the standards on testing is dangerous and stupid regardless of all the social engineering you seem to espouse.

Where in my post does it say that standards should be lowered or a dumbass should be in uniform?

Is it your belief that these people are too "dumb" to pass the test? Or are they too ignorant to pass the test?

For whatever reason, the pool of blacks who can read and do math at a 12th grade level is much smaller relative to their representation. And yet, these same guys after serving in the military and learning a work ethic (which a lot of young men acquire in the military regardless of race) seem almost universally capable of completing college level work. So, within a range perhaps, we're not talking about intelligence or common sense, we're talking about skills. Skills can be acquired.

Skills can be acquired. In theory, qualities can be learned as well but even some intelligent people seem quite resistant to intelligent organic morality, opting that they do for the canned idiocy they parrot.

Odysseus
03-14-2011, 03:35 PM
Where in my post does it say that standards should be lowered or a dumbass should be in uniform?

Is it your belief that these people are too "dumb" to pass the test? Or are they too ignorant to pass the test?

For whatever reason, the pool of blacks who can read and do math at a 12th grade level is much smaller relative to their representation. And yet, these same guys after serving in the military and learning a work ethic (which a lot of young men acquire in the military regardless of race) seem almost universally capable of completing college level work. So, within a range perhaps, we're not talking about intelligence or common sense, we're talking about skills. Skills can be acquired.

Skills can be acquired. In theory, qualities can be learned as well but even some intelligent people seem quite resistant to intelligent organic morality, opting that they do for the canned idiocy they parrot.

Uh, no. The guys who cannot read and do math at a 12th grade level are not supposed to get past the ASVAB. We're not a remedial schooling program for the dregs of our educational system, regardless of ethnicity. What we are is the organization that is trained and authorized to use lethal force in defense of our nation. Imbeciles, illiterates and the indolent are not wanted.

NJCardFan
03-14-2011, 09:43 PM
I do need to be fair here. Passing the test does not make one a good cop. Some people are just good test takers. There are supervisors where I work, sergeants and lieutenants, who are as dumb as a bag of hammers. However, there has to be a reason why a segment of the population cannot pass a simple civil service test. Believe me, it ain't rocket science. Hell, I nearly aced it.

Novaheart
03-14-2011, 10:07 PM
I do need to be fair here. Passing the test does not make one a good cop. Some people are just good test takers. There are supervisors where I work, sergeants and lieutenants, who are as dumb as a bag of hammers. However, there has to be a reason why a segment of the population cannot pass a simple civil service test. Believe me, it ain't rocket science. Hell, I nearly aced it.

This appears to be similar to the firefighter case. Years ago people claimed that hiring and promotion decisions were run by an old boy network and that the discrimination or need for connections was unacceptable. Hiring needed to be more objective, determined by a checklist of standards and testing. Then when that didn't produce the results they expected from a fair system (as in the New Haven firefighter exam) then they claimed that the test itself was discriminatory, or irrelevant, that each applicant ought to be considered on his merits.

Ody mentioned the military test, and given the range of acceptable scores on that, one could easily ask if a point or two really makes that much difference. Those tests are scored against a national sample and ranked by percentile, so each point lower on that test represents people who did better than you did. This cop test seems to be a fixed score, so theoretically everyone could fail or everyone succeed. The score you get can be compared to the group, but it doesn't necessarily mean someone else did better.

While it's interesting that the acceptable score is a failing score in any private school classroom, the question we are left with is if the difference between a 60 and a 58 is the difference between a good cop and a bad one, a genius and a moron. I doubt that a couple of points really makes that much difference.

lacarnut
03-14-2011, 10:36 PM
Where in my post does it say that standards should be lowered or a dumbass should be in uniform?

Is it your belief that these people are too "dumb" to pass the test? Or are they too ignorant to pass the test?

For whatever reason, the pool of blacks who can read and do math at a 12th grade level is much smaller relative to their representation. And yet, these same guys after serving in the military and learning a work ethic (which a lot of young men acquire in the military regardless of race) seem almost universally capable of completing college level work. So, within a range perhaps, we're not talking about intelligence or common sense, we're talking about skills. Skills can be acquired.

Skills can be acquired. In theory, qualities can be learned as well but even some intelligent people seem quite resistant to intelligent organic morality, opting that they do for the canned idiocy they parrot.

Yes. They are too dumb/ignorant to be a police officer. It is not a right to be a police officer just because they are black. Civil service offers sample tests and answers to many tests that they give. Also, if you are deficient, get a tutor. Problem is if you are stupid, that will not help much. The department should be raising standards instead of lowering them. Just a guess but I would think that the military would not take anyone with an IQ under a 100 which most of these guys probably could not meet.

BTW, I worked with a black college educated auditor with a BS degree who would pay someone to write letters for him. I was amazed that a grad from a black university could pass an English course and not be able to write a 3 or 4 paragraph one page letter. I also remember helping a black caddy do a college accounting homework problem. You ready for this shit. He could not figure out how to compute interest ( I = P x R x T). That is 8 or 9th grade math. Unbelievable that his major might be in the accounting/business field.

NJCardFan
03-14-2011, 11:00 PM
Sorry, but I can't calculate it either. Then again, the only math I understand involves money.

Novaheart
03-14-2011, 11:19 PM
Dayton is 43% black, and in an article from 2007 it said the police force was 88% "Anglo", which seems a bit odd for them to specify ethnicity rather than race, but let's assume it has some purpose.

Mind you, the country is 12% black, which corresponds directly to the number of cops on the police force in 2007.

Also, it would be interesting to know what the CMA population by race is, given that the police would be drawn from a broader pool than city limits.

Oddly, even though the country is 12% black, and 35% of federal employees are black, no one complaints about that imbalance.

Around here we supposedly have trouble keeping a diverse police force (my town is 95% caucasian) because black police academy graduates can get better pay writing speeding tickets for the FHP than doing police work for a city.

lacarnut
03-14-2011, 11:41 PM
Dayton is 43% black, and in an article from 2007 it said the police force was 88% "Anglo", which seems a bit odd for them to specify ethnicity rather than race, but let's assume it has some purpose.

Mind you, the country is 12% black, which corresponds directly to the number of cops on the police force in 2007.

Also, it would be interesting to know what the CMA population by race is, given that the police would be drawn from a broader pool than city limits.

Oddly, even though the country is 12% black, and 35% of federal employees are black, no one complaints about that imbalance.

Around here we supposedly have trouble keeping a diverse police force (my town is 95% caucasian) because black police academy graduates can get better pay writing speeding tickets for the FHP than doing police work for a city.

I wonder if a racist like Holder thinks that over 80% of those playing pro football and basketball should be white. Not enough honkies playing.:eek:

A revelation just occurred. It's either brawn or brains that gets you most jobs. Dumb shits need not apply for police work. They can always get on as night watchman. Duh

Novaheart
03-15-2011, 08:59 AM
I wonder if a racist like Holder thinks that over 80% of those playing pro football and basketball should be white. Not enough honkies playing.:eek:

A revelation just occurred. It's either brawn or brains that gets you most jobs. Dumb shits need not apply for police work. They can always get on as night watchman. Duh

Well, that gets back to the diversity argument. To date, I've seen no correlation between brawn and brains. If police departments only hire people who get the highest scores on math tests, then say hello to officers Yang, Sung, O, Takura, Chopahuyradhurarama, and Chan. Would white or black America really enjoy being policed by an all Oriental or East Indian police force? Doubtful. So somewhere between an exact match and significant representation is the happy medium.

If one judges from movies and television, what was America's opinion of the brainpower of the Irish policeman?

Rockntractor
03-15-2011, 10:28 AM
I was told by a police officer friend that having a degree showed that you were more disciplined and more likely to stick with something and show self improvement.

lacarnut
03-15-2011, 11:47 AM
Well, that gets back to the diversity argument. To date, I've seen no correlation between brawn and brains. If police departments only hire people who get the highest scores on math tests, then say hello to officers Yang, Sung, O, Takura, Chopahuyradhurarama, and Chan. Would white or black America really enjoy being policed by an all Oriental or East Indian police force? Doubtful. So somewhere between an exact match and significant representation is the happy medium.

If one judges from movies and television, what was America's opinion of the brainpower of the Irish policeman?

No moron. Civil service tests work this way. The top 5 scores (not applicants) are eligible for an interview. You might have 10 applicants in that mix. The person that scores the lowest out of the top 5 scores has just as a good a chance. I have seen this happen in many cases. You should really SFTU cause you don't know squat about civil service hiring.

In the case of the police officers taking this test, you could not get enough blacks while scrapping the bottom of the barrel. In other words, they are not enough blacks to pour piss out of a boot that could pass a test that had already been dumbed down. You can not be that stupid to understand that a 58% on a test is equivalent to being severely not qualified. Even the NAACP chapter head agrees with me.

Novaheart
03-15-2011, 11:58 AM
No moron. Civil service tests work this way. The top 5 scores (not applicants) are eligible for an interview. You might have 10 applicants in that mix. The person that scores the lowest out of the top 5 scores has just as a good a chance. I have seen this happen in many cases. You should really SFTU cause you don't know squat about civil service hiring.

In the case of the police officers taking this test, you could not get enough blacks while scrapping the bottom of the barrel. In other words, they are not enough blacks to pour piss out of a boot that could pass a test that had already been dumbed down. You can not be that stupid to understand that a 58% on a test is equivalent to being severely not qualified. Even the NAACP chapter head agrees with me.

The really stunning thing about this discussion, other than your sheer assholery, is that there are so many people who failed the test. It doesn't say much for the pool of people chasing police jobs, does it? Three quarters of the blacks and half the whites failed the test by the prior (and as you have noted already low) standard.

Seems to me, that we should be encouraging Orientals to take the test.

Novaheart
03-15-2011, 12:00 PM
I wonder if a racist like Holder thinks that over 80% of those playing pro football and basketball should be white. Not enough honkies playing.:eek:

A revelation just occurred. It's either brawn or brains that gets you most jobs. Dumb shits need not apply for police work. They can always get on as night watchman. Duh

So you think that you should be hired for what reason?

lacarnut
03-15-2011, 12:27 PM
The really stunning thing about this discussion, other than your sheer assholery, is that there are so many people who failed the test. It doesn't say much for the pool of people chasing police jobs, does it? Three quarters of the blacks and half the whites failed the test by the prior (and as you have noted already low) standard.

Seems to me, that we should be encouraging Orientals to take the test.

Then there must be a bunch of dumb ass blacks and whites taking the test. Like I said, I doubt that most of them have an IQ over a 100. Even an asshole like you could probably pass the test. FYI, I would rather have a half ass intelligent Oriental than a dumb ass black or white.

The standards should be high. A score of 70 should be the minimum. I would think that those in that community do not want a bunch of dummy police officers. You probably would cause you seem to keep defending the low score test along with a racist like Holder.

lacarnut
03-15-2011, 12:33 PM
So you think that you should be hired for what reason?

You want me perform brain surgery on you. I did not pass the doctors test but I can gain experience by on the job training. One day, I might be successful and not kill every one of my patients.