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View Full Version : Interesting...Hitler on Atheism, Islam and the idea of an Islamic Europe



CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-15-2011, 04:12 PM
Hitler on Islam, to Albert Speer:

"You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

And on toying with the notion of what Europe would've been like had the Muslims conquered it in the Middle Ages (to Albert Speer):

"Hitler said that the conquering Arabs, because of their racial inferiority, would in the long run have been unable to contend with the harsher climate and conditions of the country. They could not have kept down the more vigorous natives, so that ultimately not Arabs but Islamized Germans could have stood at the head of this Mohammedan Empire."

Among eastern religions, Hitler described religious leaders such as "Confucius, Buddha, and Mohammed" as providers of "spiritual sustenance".[56] In this context, Hitler's connection to Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, the Mufti of Jerusalem — which included asylum in 1941, the honorary rank of an SS Major-General, and a "respected racial genealogy" — has been interpreted more as a sign of respect than political expedience.[57] Hitler expressed admiration for the Muslim military tradition and directed Himmler to initiate Muslim SS Divisions as a matter of policy.

On Christianity and religion in general:

"Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity."

Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939 a conversation in which Hitler had "expressed his revulsion against Christianity. He wished that the time were ripe for him to be able to openly express that. Christianity had corrupted and infected the entire world of antiquity."

Author Konrad Heiden has quoted Hitler as stating, "We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany."

In 1985 the Austrian author Wilfried Daim published a photograph of an alleged document signed by Hitler in 1943, which proposed the:

"Immediate and unconditional abolition of all religions after the final victory ('Endsieg') not only for the territory of Greater Germany but also for all released, occupied and annexed countries ..., proclaiming at the same time Hitler as the new messiah. Out of political considerations the Muslim, Buddhist and Shintoist religion will be spared for the present. The 'Führer' has to be presented as an intermediate between a redeemer and a liberator, yet surely as one sent by God, who has to get godly honour. The existing churches, chapels, temples and cult places of the different religions have to be changed into 'Adolf-Hitler-consecration places'. The theological faculties of the universities have to be transformed into the new faith. Special emphasis has to be lain on the education of missionaries and wandering preachers, who have to proclaim the teaching in Greater Germany and in the rest of the world and have to form religious bodies, which can be used as centres for further extension. (With this the problems with the abolition of monogamy will disappear, because polygamy can be included into the new teaching as one of the statements of faith.)

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)

wilbur
03-15-2011, 05:53 PM
So then every founding father quote leveraged to claim that this was a nation founded upon Christian principles is political bullshit then? K, thx.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-15-2011, 06:04 PM
So then every founding father quote leveraged to claim that this was a nation founded upon Christian principles is political bullshit then? K, thx.

"Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class."-- Lenin

malloc
03-15-2011, 06:06 PM
So then every founding father quote leveraged to claim that this was a nation founded upon Christian principles is political bullshit then? K, thx.

You realize that you just leveraged the viewpoints of a complete madman Adolph Hitler, to make some sort of political point, right? Even thought it is folly to argue the messenger over the message, using Hitler as a source of evidence might be...problematic. That's like using Stalin or Mao's viewpoints of human rights and due process to support an argument for prison reforms. It's just plain unwise.

fettpett
03-15-2011, 06:10 PM
So then every founding father quote leveraged to claim that this was a nation founded upon Christian principles is political bullshit then? K, thx.

what does Hitlers comments on Islam have to do with the Founding Fathers of the US? utter fail dude

wilbur
03-15-2011, 06:36 PM
You realize that you just leveraged the viewpoints of a complete madman Adolph Hitler, to make some sort of political point, right? Even thought it is folly to argue the messenger over the message, using Hitler as a source of evidence might be...problematic. That's like using Stalin or Mao's viewpoints of human rights and due process to support an argument for prison reforms. It's just plain unwise.

Actually, the point was more to the fact that people in the thread where I actually posted the relevant video had been arguing that Hitler committed his atrocities in the name of atheism, and therefore atheism is evil and scary and will kill your babies.

NJCardFan
03-15-2011, 10:32 PM
So then every founding father quote leveraged to claim that this was a nation founded upon Christian principles is political bullshit then? K, thx.

Wow. Agreeing with Hitler, huh? Says something about you.

Odysseus
03-15-2011, 11:52 PM
Actually, the point was more to the fact that people in the thread where I actually posted the relevant video had been arguing that Hitler committed his atrocities in the name of atheism, and therefore atheism is evil and scary and will kill your babies.

Well, we can easily determine that Hitler loathed any religion that was not centered on him. If he believed in is own divinity, he was nuts. If he didn't, which is more likely, then it was all a cynical ploy to maintain control. Either way, he was anti-Christian and, it goes without saying, anti-Jewish. That he found favor in the single most violent, misogynist and backward religion in the world is just icing on the cake.

FBIGuy
03-16-2011, 07:36 AM
Meh. There are very few things in this world more pathetic than a shallow thinking Nazi sympathizer.

wilbur
03-16-2011, 07:46 AM
Meh. There are very few things in this world more pathetic than a shallow thinking Nazi sympathizer.

LOL

Its really a weird phenomenon... to see words typed from a person who obviously can't read.

Odysseus
03-16-2011, 10:19 AM
LOL

Its really a weird phenomenon... to see words typed from a person who obviously can't read.

There's that humility that we've come to love. :rolleyes:

Has it ever occurred to you that the nihilistic, self-absorbed pathology that you call a personal philosophy has more in common with Nazism than any religious dogma?

wilbur
03-16-2011, 11:09 AM
There's that humility that we've come to love. :rolleyes:

Well, I was called a "Nazi sympathizer" based on comments in this thread, that in no possible world could be construed as sympathetic to the Nazi's - unless one simply has no ability to comprehend words. So yea - such stupidity deserved far more scorn than it got, truth be told.



Has it ever occurred to you that the nihilistic, self-absorbed pathology that you call a personal philosophy has more in common with Nazism than any religious dogma?

No, because that's absolutely ridiculous.

Me, a nihilist? I don't think so. I'm a staunch believer in objective reality, moral realism, meaning and purpose despite our finite lives (and the finite universe). In other words, pretty much the complete opposite of nihilism in its various forms.

So it seems that despite all our pages typed back and forth on various issues surrounding morality etc, you havent actually taken part the alleged conversations based on your above comment - at all. That makes your self-absorbed jab all the more ironic. Brilliant.

FBIGuy
03-16-2011, 12:21 PM
There's that humility that we've come to love. :rolleyes:

Has it ever occurred to you that the nihilistic, self-absorbed pathology that you call a personal philosophy has more in common with Nazism than any religious dogma?

Since encountering cupcake, I have suspected that he spent his nights in a darkened room, goose stepping to Wagner and jerking off to mp3s of Thus Spoke Zarathustra read by Keith Olbermann.

Novaheart
03-16-2011, 12:31 PM
Hitler was a gay straight atheist catholic republican democrat socialist fascist capitalist jewish aryan freudian jungian tyrant charismatic saint sinner who loved his dog.

noonwitch
03-16-2011, 12:38 PM
"Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class."-- Lenin


I think the comment that religion is the opiate of the people is wrong in the original political sense that it was stated. I don't think it's inaccurate when it comes to the psychology of groups of people involved in religious activity, christian, muslim or otherwise. I can't think of a more sinister implication of the concept of "the opiate of the masses" than what we saw in Jonestown, a group that tried to synthesize christian teachings with marxist ones. Thousands ended up dying, by either their own hands or forcibly by those they had once trusted.


I've read the original Hitler quote before, in a biography of Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Novaheart
03-16-2011, 01:44 PM
I think the comment that religion is the opiate of the people is wrong in the original political sense that it was stated. I don't think it's inaccurate when it comes to the psychology of groups of people involved in religious activity, christian, muslim or otherwise. I can't think of a more sinister implication of the concept of "the opiate of the masses" than what we saw in Jonestown, a group that tried to synthesize christian teachings with marxist ones. Thousands ended up dying, by either their own hands or forcibly by those they had once trusted.


I've read the original Hitler quote before, in a biography of Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Religious communes are as old as Christianity. The two concepts are not incompatible or some kind of modern attempt at structurally incompatible philosophies.

Yes, communes tend to go astray, either through ego, greed, or dysfunction. But some of them are also amongst the oldest institutions and businesses in continuous operation.

Odysseus
03-16-2011, 04:59 PM
Well, I was called a "Nazi sympathizer" based on comments in this thread, that in no possible world could be construed as sympathetic to the Nazi's - unless one simply has no ability to comprehend words. So yea - such stupidity deserved far more scorn than it got, truth be told.
But since everything that you disagree with is stupid and deserving of scorn, by the simple virtue of your disagreeing with it, it's hard to decide what is and is not actually deserving of the kind of scorn that you tend to heap on us. If only we shared your enlightenment... :rolleyes:


No, because that's absolutely ridiculous.
Oh, well, that clears that up.


Me, a nihilist? I don't think so. I'm a staunch believer in objective reality, moral realism, meaning and purpose despite our finite lives (and the finite universe). In other words, pretty much the complete opposite of nihilism in its various forms.

So it seems that despite all our pages typed back and forth on various issues surrounding morality etc, you havent actually taken part the alleged conversations based on your above comment - at all. That makes your self-absorbed jab all the more ironic. Brilliant.
No, I stand by my assessment. Just because you think that you believe in objective reality doesn't make it so (in fact, your subjectivity is pretty much a given among everyone else here, but you refuse to recognize it). It's that whole moral compass issue again.

Since encountering cupcake, I have suspected that he spent his nights in a darkened room, goose stepping to Wagner and jerking off to mp3s of Thus Spoke Zarathustra read by Keith Olbermann.
Unlikely. Wilbur lacks the charisma to be a Nazi. Can you imagine someone wanting to be tied up and ravished as someone dressed as Wilbur?


Hitler was a gay straight atheist catholic republican democrat socialist fascist capitalist jewish aryan freudian jungian tyrant charismatic saint sinner who loved his dog.
And it was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

Seriously, though, there are some things about Hitler that are objectively known to us. Hitler and his niece had an affair that ended with her suicide, following which he had a relationship with Eva Braun. He was straight, but deeply screwed up about sex. Religiously, Hitler was virulently anti-Christian. He may have been an atheist, although there is evidence that he was caught up in a lot of the pagan aryan BS that was popular in Germany at the time (and which was where all of the Nazi obsessions with blood come from). Economically, his program was spelled out in Mein Kampf, and it was derivative of Marxism. Fascism's economic policies were actually begun by Mussolini, who started out as a doctrinaire socialist, but who developed a mix of that socialism with nationalism. This was a break with the Soviet Comintern model, which espoused international socialism. The marriage of nationalism and socialism was where we get the term "national socialism", the idea that you can have socialism in one state. The other distinction between a state that owns the means of production outright and a state that permits titular ownership but sets all policies and procedures is minimal, so one can say that he was both a socialist and a fascist. He was certainly a tyrant and charismatic (his speeches were extremely rousing, and he could work a crowd like a carnival barker, without a teleprompter).

wilbur
03-16-2011, 07:44 PM
No, I stand by my assessment. Just because you think that you believe in objective reality doesn't make it so (in fact, your subjectivity is pretty much a given among everyone else here, but you refuse to recognize it). It's that whole moral compass issue again.


Oh well... good thing you are here to tell me what I think and believe - always good to find out!

Rockntractor
03-16-2011, 07:45 PM
Oh well... good thing you are here to tell me what I think and believe - always good to find out!

Now that you know, do the honorable thing.

hampshirebrit
03-16-2011, 07:52 PM
Hitler was a gay straight atheist catholic republican democrat socialist fascist capitalist jewish aryan freudian jungian tyrant charismatic saint sinner who loved his dog.

He did love Blondi, that's true. So much so, that he used her to test the poison before he took it himself.

Nasty bastard, he was.

For the avoidance of doubt, while I don't agree with a lot of what Wilbur says, comparing him to Hitler or attempting to attribute Nazi ideology to him is pretty ludicrous.

Rockntractor
03-16-2011, 08:03 PM
For the avoidance of doubt, while I don't agree with a lot of what Wilbur says, comparing him to Hitler or attempting to attribute Nazi ideology to him is pretty ludicrous.

Bloody fascist.:rolleyes:

Novaheart
03-16-2011, 09:10 PM
He did love Blondi, that's true. So much so, that he used her to test the poison before he took it himself.

Nasty bastard, he was.

For the avoidance of doubt, while I don't agree with a lot of what Wilbur says, comparing him to Hitler or attempting to attribute Nazi ideology to him is pretty ludicrous.

Oddly, I'm the resident fascist and no one ever accuses me of it.

Rockntractor
03-16-2011, 09:33 PM
Oddly, I'm the resident fascist and no one ever accuses me of it.

Hardly noticeable, somewhat insignificant. What were we talking about?:confused:

Odysseus
03-17-2011, 12:36 AM
Oh well... good thing you are here to tell me what I think and believe - always good to find out!
Given your lack of self-awareness (and surfeit of self-absorption), it's no surprise that you believe yourself to be the sole voice of reason and logic, when in fact you are anything but. If my efforts have made you aware of this, then it's been worth it. If not, it's still worth it.

Now that you know, do the honorable thing.
Honor is one of those quaint ideas that sophisticates like Wilbur have no time for.

He did love Blondi, that's true. So much so, that he used her to test the poison before he took it himself.

Nasty bastard, he was.

For the avoidance of doubt, while I don't agree with a lot of what Wilbur says, comparing him to Hitler or attempting to attribute Nazi ideology to him is pretty ludicrous.

Yes, but it isn't ridiculous to point out that many of Wilbur's positions bring him to the same conclusions. For example, his dismissal of human life as having intrinsic value beyond its utility is extremely similar to the Nazi concept of “life unworthy of life”, or “Lebensunwertes Leben”.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-17-2011, 02:32 AM
Yes, but it isn't ridiculous to point out that many of Wilbur's positions bring him to the same conclusions. For example, his dismissal of human life as having intrinsic value beyond its utility is extremely similar to the Nazi concept of “life unworthy of life”, or “Lebensunwertes Leben”.

His opinion on Christianity and religion is also the same as Hitlers--"Hopefully it dies a natural death", "it's a crime against nature", "the product of sick minds."

Bailey
03-17-2011, 03:11 AM
Oddly, I'm the resident fascist and no one ever accuses me of it.

Don't forget the resident Mo too.

wilbur
03-17-2011, 09:47 AM
Given your lack of self-awareness (and surfeit of self-absorption), it's no surprise that you believe yourself to be the sole voice of reason and logic, when in fact you are anything but.

Of course, this is not true. I'm certainly better at reason and logic than others, not as good as some - and am always willing to listen to those who demonstrate their desire to practice those virtues. Just because I point out that YOU do it extremely poorly, more often than not, doesn't mean I believe myself to be some super-human reasoner. :)


Honor is one of those quaint ideas that sophisticates like Wilbur have no time for.

I don't know what you're on about here.. I think honor is great, and wish more people had it.


Yes, but it isn't ridiculous to point out that many of Wilbur's positions bring him to the same conclusions. For example, his dismissal of human life as having intrinsic value beyond its utility is extremely similar to the Nazi concept of “life unworthy of life”, or “Lebensunwertes Leben”.

Hah. Wow. Ok. If you can show me where I professed that utility (or disutility) is the criteria with which to judge the value of life.. then I'll have to concede there that I am like a Nazi! Or if you can show me where the Nazi's demonstrated and upheld the principle that "Minds have value", then I'll definitely have to concede there as well, that I am totally Nazi-like! You got me!

wilbur
03-17-2011, 09:56 AM
His opinion on Christianity and religion is also the same as Hitlers--"Hopefully it dies a natural death", "it's a crime against nature", "the product of sick minds."

Welp, I would have to concede that I do hope it (and every other religion) eventually dies a natural death. So I guess that makes me like Hitler? Though to me, the "natural death" of a belief would be more like a slow fade into irrelevance, rather than a death engineered through gas chambers and gulags!** So maybe not so much.

But neither do I think religion is a "crime against nature" (a nonsense statement), nor "the product of sick minds". Really I just think they are all untrue - they are false. Which is why I'd like to see them replaced by beliefs closer to the truth. And I do not care to label everyone who holds false beliefs as "sick". So guess I'm really not much like Hitler after all. Sorry.







** Just kidding (obviously)! Its gas chambers and gulags for you buddy! You're at the top of my list!

hazlnut
03-17-2011, 10:39 AM
Didn't Hitler also say having two balls is overrated.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-17-2011, 10:55 AM
Welp, I would have to concede that I do hope it (and every other religion) eventually dies a natural death. So I guess that makes me like Hitler? Though to me, the "natural death" of a belief would be more like a slow fade into irrelevance, rather than a death engineered through gas chambers and gulags!** So maybe not so much.

But neither do I think religion is a "crime against nature" (a nonsense statement), nor "the product of sick minds". Really I just think they are all untrue - they are false. Which is why I'd like to see them replaced by beliefs closer to the truth. And I do not care to label everyone who holds false beliefs as "sick". So guess I'm really not much like Hitler after all. Sorry.







** Just kidding (obviously)! Its gas chambers and gulags for you buddy! You're at the top of my list!

Yes, something more true like life is meaningless, pointless, just some sort of accident, nothing means anything. What a wonderful view of life.

wilbur
03-17-2011, 10:59 AM
Yes, something more true like life is meaningless, pointless, just some sort of accident, nothing means anything. What a wonderful view of life.

YOU may think that's what life without belief in God is - but its not what I think life without belief in God is and I have never said as much. I think life is very meaningful, thank you very much.

You, like Odysseus, can't seem to grasp the fact that I am not nihilistic.

Odysseus
03-17-2011, 11:19 AM
Didn't Hitler also say having two balls is overrated.
If so, there's hope for you yet.

Of course, this is not true. I'm certainly better at reason and logic than others, not as good as some - and am always willing to listen to those who demonstrate their desire to practice those virtues. Just because I point out that YOU do it extremely poorly, more often than not, doesn't mean I believe myself to be some super-human reasoner. :)
Funny thing is, you're the only one here who thinks that you are good at it.

I don't know what you're on about here.. I think honor is great, and wish more people had it.
I'd settle for you having it.

Hah. Wow. Ok. If you can show me where I professed that utility (or disutility) is the criteria with which to judge the value of life.. then I'll have to concede there that I am like a Nazi! Or if you can show me where the Nazi's demonstrated and upheld the principle that "Minds have value", then I'll definitely have to concede there as well, that I am totally Nazi-like! You got me!

The Nazi eugenics program was based on the idea that minds above a certain level were the only ones of value. This is how they justified the mass murder of the mentally retarded or otherwise lacked their concept of proper mental hygiene. Thus, they could murder innocent people who fell short of their definition of mental sufficiency, which became a short hop to executing people that they considered morally insufficient. Now, you say that you have never advocated killing those who are unfit? How about your endorsement of Terri Schiavo's execution by starvation? I'm sure that you will try to weasel out of this, but if the jackboot fits...

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-17-2011, 11:42 AM
YOU may think that's what life without belief in God is - but its not what I think life without belief in God is and I have never said as much. I think life is very meaningful, thank you very much.

You, like Odysseus, can't seem to grasp the fact that I am not nihilistic.

If life is just a cosmic accident, what is the point Wilbur?

wilbur
03-17-2011, 12:56 PM
The Nazi eugenics program was based on the idea that minds above a certain level were the only ones of value. This is how they justified the mass murder of the mentally retarded or otherwise lacked their concept of proper mental hygiene. Thus, they could murder innocent people who fell short of their definition of mental sufficiency, which became a short hop to executing people that they considered morally insufficient.

Please. We all know that when your determined to find some intellectual connection between something disagreeable to you, and something evil, you'll find it, no matter what. When you want to find some intellectual connection between something you like, and something good, you stop at nothing to find it. From the laughable slippery slope scenarios about marriage, to the laughably exaggerated lines between judeo-christian thought and science/education/freedom/etc you are practically a walking monument to confirmation bias.

And now your words are already transforming in order to draw the connection you want, which is a connection between my beliefs and Nazism. First you said:


Yes, but it isn't ridiculous to point out that many of Wilbur's positions bring him to the same conclusions. For example, his dismissal of human life as having intrinsic value beyond its utility is extremely similar to the Nazi concept of “life unworthy of life”, or “Lebensunwertes Leben”.

So you first accused me of claiming that human life has no intrinsic value beyond its utility, and that this is what was Nazi-like. Well, I never agreed that value is equivalent or based upon utility. And in fact, I think my response blatantly denied it, here:


... If you can show me where I professed that utility (or disutility) is the criteria with which to judge the value of life...

And since I destroyed that attempt at a connection, you are attempting to rebuild that connection yet again, by re-jiggering the wording. Suddenly its not utility that Nazi's cared about, they believed that intrinsic value arises based on the one's mental acuity. Funny how Nazi beliefs keep changing in accordance with what you believe my beliefs to be. Unfortunately though, this is also not an accurate recapitulation of my beliefs, which place value on the existence of the mind - not on various measurements of mental capacity, like IQ, or social skills, or dubious evaluations of a minds affect on the genetic fitness of the human race.

And surely you were closer to the Nazi's actual beliefs the first time. They looked at mental acuity as a measure of utility - and utility was what they valued.

But I guess as long as you are willing to keep changing the beliefs of the Nazi's to align with my beliefs, then yea, I am Nazi-like - in your head. Thankfully, as a believer in objective reality, this actually doesnt matter much, outside your head. Maybe its you who are the real nihilist here.

Though I do have to say, I am very interested to see in what way the beliefs of the long dead Nazis will change next.


Now, you say that you have never advocated killing those who are unfit? How about your endorsement of Terri Schiavo's execution by starvation? I'm sure that you will try to weasel out of this, but if the jackboot fits...

Oh brother... I guess your honor code doesnt exclude drawing *absurd* false equivalences - nor does it include representing the beliefs of your oppositions in arguments fairly or even accurately, as any person with integrity would do. Though, this is nothing new.

Say what you will about slippery slopes, but ceasing with extraordinary life saving measures for an essentially brain dead patient with no hope of recovery - versus the systematic execution of otherwise healthy people with lower IQ's - isnt even the same damn mountain. In the former case, there is well established precedent that first prioritizes any aforementioned expressed wishes of the person who is incapacitated. In the case that no such wishes were formally expressed, we generally leave the decision to the loved ones. In this case, there was a dispute between loved ones.

If you can show me where I argued that it was the moral obligation for the state to starve TS to death, then you might have a point - but you can't, because I didn't. It should be up to her loved ones... and where the law places its priority (ie, husband or parents) is a complicated and murky issue, to which I see no clear answer, though yea - I didnt lean towards the husband.

And in the end, the autopsy did confirm that she was long gone already - and we can say for certain that no moral harm was done in letting her die - even in letting her starve to death, since there was no capacity for pain, nor any mind left of any sort.

wilbur
03-17-2011, 01:10 PM
If life is just a cosmic accident, what is the point Wilbur?

I would argue that its Eudaemonia - or flourishing - since to seek it seems to be an objective trait of beings with minds. I think its rather silly to suggest that beings should stop caring about it, simply because no God exists.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-17-2011, 01:23 PM
I would argue that its Eudaemonia - or flourishing - since to seek it seems to be an objective trait of beings with minds. I think its rather silly to suggest that beings should stop caring about it, simply because no God exists.

But without any sort of purpose, we become purposeless, unless we, after a time, promote ourselves to the position of "God". And that is a very dangerous road to travel down. I would say that even if God DOESN'T exist, belief in something higher governing human actions is a NORMAL human behavior which basically, to be blunt, keeps us in line.

wilbur
03-17-2011, 01:54 PM
But without any sort of purpose, we become purposeless

Ok, yes that is true - if we have no purpose, then we are purposeless, by definition. But the existence of God does not create purpose - nor does it take it away.

Even if God existed and had a purpose, we could always pose the question, "What is the purpose of this?" If he wants us all to live forever in heaven.. well, what is the purpose of that? You might say its the perfect existence, well, I can still ask what the purpose of that is. If you say its to be happy forever, I can ask what is the purpose of being happy forever?





unless we, after a time, promote ourselves to the position of "God". And that is a very dangerous road to travel down. I would say that even if God DOESN'T exist, belief in something higher governing human actions is a NORMAL human behavior which basically, to be blunt, keeps us in line.

We are only kept "in line" until the next charismatic "prophet" or priest comes along and is able to convince us differently. Gods purpose for you is what you have been convinced it is, by other men.