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megimoo
03-21-2011, 08:16 AM
A homemade incendiary device was thrown at one of the participants of the 40 Days for Life pro-life prayer vigil at an abortion business in Kalispell, Montana on Thursday night.

" It Would Be Interesting If a Few More Black Pro Life People Were Involved .Maybe Then
The DOJ Would Be Interested in An White On Black Firebombing? ":mad:

The woman walked on the public sidewalk near the abortion business when an unidentified person threw the device — akin to a “Molotov cocktail” — in her direction. The woman did not see either the firebomb nor the assailant it exploded on the sidewalk behind her, making a loud popping noise like a big firecracker as it burst into flame. Fortunately, the woman was not hurt in the incident.

After she regained her composure, the victim called Karen Trierweiler, coordinator of the 40 Days prayer vigils in Kalispell at the All Family Health Care abortion center, over to her.

After a lengthy delay, a Kalispell police officer arrived. However, according to officials with the Thomas More Society, a pro-life legal group that is helping the participants, instead of inspecting the bomb debris or calling evidence technicians to the scene, the officer remarked that police could never get prints or other evidence from the bomb’s remains and said he would call the city’s garbage service to dispose of all the debris.

The officer then said that the 40 Days prayer vigil participants should expect this kind of reaction if they’re protesting at the abortion business. Questioning Officer Hoover’s assessment of the attack, Trierweiler called the Kalispell desk sergeant to complain, where she was unable to get further assistance.

http://www.lifenews.com/2011/03/18/firebomb-thrown-at-elderly-woman-at-pro-life-prayer-event/

fettpett
03-21-2011, 09:13 AM
wow...what bullshit

FBIGuy
03-21-2011, 09:21 AM
I would think that the sheriff has a few babies in his past that needed disposing.

NJCardFan
03-21-2011, 11:43 AM
Must have been another right winger. :rolleyes:

noonwitch
03-21-2011, 11:49 AM
But was the target of the bomber the elderly lady or the clinic? The article, written by an antiabortion organization, assumes that the woman protesting was the target. But she was protesting in front of the abortion clinic, so the clinic itself may have been the target and she was just unfortunate enough to have been there at the same time a whackjob decided to try to take out the clinic.


After all, it's not like the pro choice people have the history of firebombing Right to Life offices.

fettpett
03-21-2011, 11:54 AM
But was the target of the bomber the elderly lady or the clinic? The article, written by an antiabortion organization, assumes that the woman protesting was the target. But she was protesting in front of the abortion clinic, so the clinic itself may have been the target and she was just unfortunate enough to have been there at the same time a whackjob decided to try to take out the clinic.


After all, it's not like the pro choice people have the history of firebombing Right to Life offices.

however that doesn't mean that the cops can't do their fucking job, regardless of who it's been thrown at

megimoo
03-21-2011, 12:01 PM
But was the target of the bomber the elderly lady or the clinic? The article, written by an antiabortion organization, assumes that the woman protesting was the target. But she was protesting in front of the abortion clinic, so the clinic itself may have been the target and she was just unfortunate enough to have been there at the same time a whackjob decided to try to take out the clinic.


After all, it's not like the pro choice people have the history of firebombing Right to Life offices.Was it just a coincidence that they were protesting when the bomb went off ?I think not !

NJCardFan
03-21-2011, 10:42 PM
You know, why don't these gutless tools try this shit at a Tea Party event. All I see them do is pick on old ladies. Pussies you lefties are.

PoliCon
03-21-2011, 11:54 PM
But was the target of the bomber the elderly lady or the clinic? The article, written by an antiabortion organization, assumes that the woman protesting was the target. But she was protesting in front of the abortion clinic, so the clinic itself may have been the target and she was just unfortunate enough to have been there at the same time a whackjob decided to try to take out the clinic.


After all, it's not like the pro choice people have the history of firebombing Right to Life offices.

Are you claiming that lefties have no history of using incendiary devices against those whom they oppose?

noonwitch
03-22-2011, 07:36 AM
Are you claiming that lefties have no history of using incendiary devices against those whom they oppose?


No, I'm claiming that the pro choice movement does not have a history of using incendiary devices against it's opponents. In that particular argument, only one side has a history of doing so and it's the antiabortion side. Of course, Right To Life and catholic groups don't do those things, but it's radicals from that side that do.

FBIGuy
03-22-2011, 07:39 AM
No, I'm claiming that the pro choice movement does not have a history of using incendiary devices against it's opponents. In that particular argument, only one side has a history of doing so and it's the antiabortion side. Of course, Right To Life and catholic groups don't do those things, but it's radicals from that side that do.

It's the new world order baby. Goose and gander stuff.

NJCardFan
03-22-2011, 10:31 AM
No, I'm claiming that the pro choice movement does not have a history of using incendiary devices against it's opponents. In that particular argument, only one side has a history of doing so and it's the antiabortion side. Of course, Right To Life and catholic groups don't do those things, but it's radicals from that side that do.

Can't say that now, can we.

noonwitch
03-22-2011, 03:32 PM
Can't say that now, can we.


Have they arrested a prochoice activist or something? I'm still thinking it's an antiabortion person with really bad aim.

Odysseus
03-22-2011, 05:59 PM
Have they arrested a prochoice activist or something? I'm still thinking it's an antiabortion person with really bad aim.

It's possible, but if that were the case, I suspect that someone in the group would have seen it. Prayer vigils tend to be peaceful, and the extremists who bomb clinics tend to do it when there is nobody there, rather than tossing a bomb in front of a crowd of people.

PoliCon
03-22-2011, 07:43 PM
No, I'm claiming that the pro choice movement does not have a history of using incendiary devices against it's opponents. In that particular argument, only one side has a history of doing so and it's the antiabortion side. Of course, Right To Life and catholic groups don't do those things, but it's radicals from that side that do.

Or maybe it's just that the pro-life radicals that get all the press.

noonwitch
03-23-2011, 07:45 AM
Or maybe it's just that the pro-life radicals that get all the press.


Considering that the extremists on that side have shot and killed several OB/GYNs who provide abotion services, and have burned down several clinics over the past 25-30 years or so.... Not only that, there has been a notorious website (my server blocks it) that lists the home addresses of doctors who perform abortions and actively encourages people to kill them.

This is the first incident I have heard where a antiabortion protestor was injured like this. Acts of attempted martyrdom don't count-like laying down on the driveway in an attempt to block traffic and getting run over by a car. Although, the pro choice people stop for the idiots and have them arrested instead of running them over.

Odysseus
03-23-2011, 10:13 AM
Considering that the extremists on that side have shot and killed several OB/GYNs who provide abotion services, and have burned down several clinics over the past 25-30 years or so.... Not only that, there has been a notorious website (my server blocks it) that lists the home addresses of doctors who perform abortions and actively encourages people to kill them.

This is the first incident I have heard where a antiabortion protestor was injured like this. Acts of attempted martyrdom don't count-like laying down on the driveway in an attempt to block traffic and getting run over by a car. Although, the pro choice people stop for the idiots and have them arrested instead of running them over.

Exactly how many such incidents have occurred over the last 30 years? The pro-choicers make it sound like you can't walk past an abortion clinic without a helmet and a flak vest, but in fact, the incidence of violence against abortion providers is extremely rare. The National Abortion Federation cites 8 murders of abortion providers and 17 attempts since 1977. Now, don't get me wrong, even one is too many, but to put this in perspective, since 1993, there have been 59 school shootings in the US resulting in 142 deaths. From 1993-2007 there were 559 on the job murders of cab drivers.

If you want to worry about politically motivated violence in the US, worry about unions, jihadis and leftist radical groups. Each of those has far more incidents of violence during the same period, and far higher body counts.

PoliCon
03-23-2011, 05:39 PM
Considering that the extremists on that side have shot and killed several OB/GYNs who provide abotion services, and have burned down several clinics over the past 25-30 years or so.... Not only that, there has been a notorious website (my server blocks it) that lists the home addresses of doctors who perform abortions and actively encourages people to kill them.

This is the first incident I have heard where a antiabortion protestor was injured like this. Acts of attempted martyrdom don't count-like laying down on the driveway in an attempt to block traffic and getting run over by a car. Although, the pro choice people stop for the idiots and have them arrested instead of running them over.

As Oddy points out - perspective is everything and allow me to add one more item to what he has already presented.
in the 40 years abortion has been legal in the US over 40 million unborn lives have been taken compared to 8 abortionists. I'm not trying to justify killing the abortionists - though I could - just putting things into perspective.

BTW - I like how you speak nicely of abortionists - calling them by titles - and call anti-abortion protesters idiots. Kinda telling.

NJCardFan
03-23-2011, 07:31 PM
Aside from Tiller, please name me the last abortion doctor to be killed. I'll do it for you. Since abortion has been legal, 7 of the 8 murders took place between 1993-1998(wanna take a stab who was president during that time?). That's a total of 8 murders in 40 years. Hardly ranks with Al Qaeda. The Bloods have done far worse in less time.

Rockntractor
03-23-2011, 07:39 PM
Abortion is the sacrament of the feminist movement, protest it and even normally common sense feminist people like Noonie, get their undies in a wad.

MrsSmith
03-23-2011, 09:11 PM
http://www.speroforum.com/a/19647/The-Abortion-Movements-bestkept-secret

Those Who Live in Glass Houses…

In addition to greatly exaggerating (and even inventing) incidents of pro-life violence, the pro-abortion movement is deathly silent about the violence from within its ranks against pro-lifers.

In fact, the vast majority of active pro-lifers have endured acts of pro-abortionist violence. A common example is abortion mill workers who try to run over pro-lifers demonstrating in front of clinics.[12] Dr. Tiller, himself, ran over a pro-lifer and rammed a policeman on a motorcycle in a 1989 incident at his Wichita clinic.[13]

Pro-life organization Human Life International (HLI) has documented cases of pro-abortion violence for years. Their research is published online at: http://abortionviolence.com/ and on a blog titled: Tree in the Sea (see: http://tree-in-the-sea.blogspot.com/2008/05/pro-abortion-violence.html). The latter has a list that is over 100 pages long and contains more than 2,000 cases.

For example:

Seven-year-old Ekaternia Engelke was kneeling in prayer at a Wisconsin abortion mill when leftist Catherine Doyle approached and screamed profanities at the little girl. When the latter replied: “You are killing babies!” the former kicked little Ekaterina in the face, injuring her. Afterwards, a hotline for Doyle’s pro-abortion group, Milwaukee Clinic Protection Coalition, instructed fellow pro-abortion activists to “brush up on their football skills.”



http://mttu.com/Articles/ABORTIONIST%20CJ%20LABENZ%20ARRESTED.htm


Omaha Abortionist C.J. Labenz has been charged with three crimes committed against pro-lifer Sharon McKee. Those charges are reckless driving, theft, and disorderly conduct.

http://www.lifenews.com/2004/10/09/state-731/


Pro-abortion students at Michigan State University assaulted a male student who was talking with members of Students for Life on Wednesday.

Assault


In April 1989, a cowardly pro-abortionist assaulted a 69-year old Port Huron pro-lifer at a Sterling Heights demonstration.

Reference: The Detroit News, April 30, 1989, page 18A.

Assault


On October 7, 1989, a pro-abortionist bit a pro-lifer, who was advised by his doctor to get tested for AIDS.

Reference: Videocassette "For the Children."

Assault (12 incidents)


On March 24, 1989, at the Oak Park Women Care Abortion Clinic, many rescuers were assaulted by pro-abortionists bodily removing them. One person had clumps of hair pulled out. Police arrested and charged four pro-abortionists.

Reference: "For the Children" videocassette.

Assault (4 incidents) [Livonia]


On November 12, 1988, at least four pro-abortionists assaulted pro-lifers in front of a Livonia abortion mill.

Reference: Ronald C. Dehne (police officer at the scene), Livonia Observer, Letter to Editor, June 26, 1989.

Assault and Battery (4 incidents)


On May 7, 1989, police arrested four pro-abortionists with the group "Coalition to Defend Abortion Rights" and charged them with assault and battery on pro-life picketers.

Reference: The Detroit News, May 7, 1989, page 19A.

Assault and Felony Drug Possession


A Teamsters union official was arrested in an incident where a pro-lifer was severely beaten.
eferences: "Teamster Union Official Arrested." LifeSite Daily News at http://www.lifesite.net, October 22, 1998; "Unionists Assault Pro-Lifer." LifeSite Daily News, October 6, 1998; Philadelphia Daily News, October 5, 1998.

Death Threat [Lansdale]


On October 16, 2001, a hazardous materials squad was called to the North Penn Pregnancy Counseling Center in Lansdale, Pennsylvania after an employee opened a letter that contained a powdery white substance.
References: "Pennsylvania CPC Receives Anthrax Threat Letter." Lehigh Valley News [Pennsylvania], October 17, 2001; Steven Ertelt's Pro-Life Infonet at http://www.prolifeinfo.org/infonet.html, October 18, 2001.

Novaheart
03-23-2011, 09:37 PM
however that doesn't mean that the cops can't do their fucking job, regardless of who it's been thrown at

The cops have a threshold of damage before they will do certain things. I have experienced this a couple of times. When I found a bullet in my laundry sink (Super Bowl XXXVII) , and knew who had fired it, they did nothing because me knowing who had fired it and me actually seeing who fired it would be two different things. When my sister's house was under attack from the neighborhoodies, the cops would not print the beer bottles they had thrown at her dogs in her locked fence back yard despite hurling deadly missiles being a felony in Florida.

Novaheart
03-23-2011, 09:40 PM
Abortion is the sacrament of the feminist movement, protest it and even normally common sense feminist people like Noonie, get their undies in a wad.

Then stop.

NJCardFan
03-23-2011, 09:48 PM
The cops have a threshold of damage before they will do certain things. I have experienced this a couple of times. When I found a bullet in my laundry sink (Super Bowl XXXVII) , and knew who had fired it, they did nothing because me knowing who had fired it and me actually seeing who fired it would be two different things. When my sister's house was under attack from the neighborhoodies, the cops would not print the beer bottles they had thrown at her dogs in her locked fence back yard despite hurling deadly missiles being a felony in Florida.

You know, have you ever, and I do mean EVER said anything positive about law enforcement? Ever? Yeah, Nova, it's a fucking conspiracy against you. You're probably one of those people who are total douchebags toward cops and get all up in arms when they are indifferent to you. And yes, they are right, seeing and saying you know are 2 different things. And print beer bottles? Really? You think that's the best thing for a police department to occupy themselves with? Fingerprinting a beer bottle so they can cite someone with a fucking misdemeanor? Why don't you try doing the job before constantly trashing us you fucking asshole.

Rockntractor
03-23-2011, 09:48 PM
Then stop.

As long as babies are put to death there will be people protesting it, you can get your panties in a wad all you like.

NJCardFan
03-23-2011, 09:52 PM
As long as babies are put to death there will be people protesting it, you can get your panties in a wad all you like.

Funny how people like Nova get all misty eyed over the killing of a piece of shit like Tiller yet care not one iota for the innocent children being slaughtered by people like him.

Odysseus
03-24-2011, 09:32 AM
Then stop.

Slavery used to be the the most emotional issue in American politics. Should the Abolitionists have stopped in order to spare the feelings of slaveholders?

noonwitch
03-24-2011, 12:10 PM
Abortion is the sacrament of the feminist movement, protest it and even normally common sense feminist people like Noonie, get their undies in a wad.



I don't have a problem with peaceful protests. I have a problem with people who kill doctors and use their antiabortion political views to justify doing so. Or those who burn clinics and say they are saving babies by doing so.

NJCardFan
03-24-2011, 12:22 PM
I don't have a problem with peaceful protests. I have a problem with people who kill doctors and use their antiabortion political views to justify doing so. Or those who burn clinics and say they are saving babies by doing so.

And your feelings when left wing groups cause millions of dollars in property damage?

Odysseus
03-24-2011, 12:22 PM
I don't have a problem with peaceful protests. I have a problem with people who kill doctors and use their antiabortion political views to justify doing so. Or those who burn clinics and say they are saving babies by doing so.

We all do. Again, it's such a ridiculously remote occurrence that it's the equivalent of having a problem with the burgeoning Ishtar worship movement. There are far greater threats out there to the rights of women in America.

wilbur
03-24-2011, 01:00 PM
We all do.

Do you all, really? I saw much ill-concealed glee over the murder of Dr. Tiller from conservatives, for example.



Again, it's such a ridiculously remote occurrence that it's the equivalent of having a problem with the burgeoning Ishtar worship movement. There are far greater threats out there to the rights of women in America.

Its not quite as remote as you suggest, though it is relatively rare.



According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[9] The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993.[13] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[14]

....

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[9] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:[6][10][11]

NJCardFan
03-24-2011, 01:15 PM
Um, get a clue wilbag. Even though people like me didn't shed a tear over Tiller, we still thought the shooter should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But you go ahead and hold a guy who did partial birth abortions as a hero.


According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[9] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:[6][10][11]

Um, OK. In 34 years these things have happened. That is true, but as I said, the Bloods have done worse in a shorter period of time.

wilbur
03-24-2011, 01:28 PM
Um, get a clue wilbag. Even though people like me didn't shed a tear over Tiller, we still thought the shooter should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Meh - I saw plenty beyond merely "shedding no tears". Hell, I was in an abortion thread at CC the other day, where there were a couple people actively fantasizing that a woman, who was thinking of getting an abortion, would die an untimely death. One can't maintain the level of vitriolic rhetoric of the pro-life movement, without expecting those kinds of results. When Dr. Tiller happened, it was like that, multiplied by a thousand.


But you go ahead and hold a guy who did partial birth abortions as a hero.

I don't.


Um, OK. In 34 years these things have happened. That is true, but as I said, the Bloods have done worse in a shorter period of time.

Sure it is rare - but this particular issue does seem to inspire violence in this country, more than most others.

Quite frankly though, if pro-lifers *really* had the courage of their convictions, and *really* believed that a zygote was the moral equivalent of a person (they don't) - they *would* take up arms... I don't know many people who would be cowardly enough to sit by and do nothing but pray if the law allowed mothers to murder their 5 year old kids for arbitrary reasons.

noonwitch
03-24-2011, 03:26 PM
And your feelings when left wing groups cause millions of dollars in property damage?


That they are a bunch of dumbasses who should either clean up the damage themselves or pay for it. I might be a liberal, but I can count on one hand the number of protests I've participated in. Most of the protests I participated in were 20 years ago in Kalamazoo, and had to do with protesting WMU's illegal investments in South Africa during the apartheid years. None of them involved property damage or violence, though, just walking in front of the student center or First of America bank holding signs that called attention to an issue that was being ignored by the local media, in that the university was purposely violating Michigan law by investing their money in South African companies, and banks.

I went to one peace rally before the invasion of Iraq. I didn't go to any after the invasion began, because although I think there was little justification for the 2003 invasion, I don't want the people actually fighting in it to think I don't support them. It was a church-sponsored rally in downtown Detroit, and there was no property damage or violence involved. I'm sure there was some cleanup to do, like there is after every big outdoors event.

Odysseus
03-24-2011, 04:08 PM
Do you all, really? I saw much ill-concealed glee over the murder of Dr. Tiller from conservatives, for example.
And I'm sure that the harder you looked for it, the more that you saw.


Sure it is rare - but this particular issue does seem to inspire violence in this country, more than most others.
Hardly. Far more violence is committed in the name of other political causes in the US. For example,
BATFE statistics show the following from 1993-1997:

Abortion Clinics:

Damages due to explosives: $1,009,050
Arson (January 1, 1995 to October 5, 1999): 61 actual and attempted
Injuries: 7

Commercial Enterprises (other than abortion clinics)

Damages due to explosives: over $500,000,000
Injuries: 1,224 and 47 killed

School bombings injured 127 people, and mailbox bombs killed 40.

Churches and synagogues

Arson (January 1, 1995 to October 5, 1999): 827 actual and attempted
In other words, the ratio of arson is 1:14 abortion clinic/churches and synagogues

And, if we are talking just plain murder, one jihadi racked up more dead people in the name of Allah in an afternoon at my post than pro-lifers did since 1977. Anti-abortion violence is far less common than other forms of political violence in the US.

PoliCon
03-24-2011, 06:35 PM
And I'm sure that the harder you looked for it, the more that you saw.


Hardly. Far more violence is committed in the name of other political causes in the US. For example,
BATFE statistics show the following from 1993-1997:

Abortion Clinics:

Damages due to explosives: $1,009,050
Arson (January 1, 1995 to October 5, 1999): 61 actual and attempted
Injuries: 7

Commercial Enterprises (other than abortion clinics)

Damages due to explosives: over $500,000,000
Injuries: 1,224 and 47 killed

School bombings injured 127 people, and mailbox bombs killed 40.

Churches and synagogues

Arson (January 1, 1995 to October 5, 1999): 827 actual and attempted
In other words, the ratio of arson is 1:14 abortion clinic/churches and synagogues

And, if we are talking just plain murder, one jihadi racked up more dead people in the name of Allah in an afternoon at my post than pro-lifers did since 1977. Anti-abortion violence is far less common than other forms of political violence in the US.

HOW DARE YOU INTRODUCE FACTS INTO THIS DISCUSSION!:mad:

NJCardFan
03-24-2011, 07:22 PM
Ody, you're facts are showing.

Rockntractor
03-24-2011, 07:31 PM
Poor Wilbur, every time he takes on Ody it ends the same!
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/wileycoyote-06-300x225.jpg

Novaheart
03-24-2011, 09:42 PM
You know, have you ever, and I do mean EVER said anything positive about law enforcement? Ever?

The complaint in the other post was that the cops didn't do magical TV Show forensics on the alleged incendiary device. How would complimenting my local police force on the containment of the criminal element pertain to that issue? It wouldn't. It also wasn't an attack on the police, it was a statement of fact. The cops actually told us that they don't do much on cases like ours. He also told us that if he did arrest the kids and haul them to the jail, they would be disrespectful, obnoxious, and demanding the entire time because they know that not much is going to happen to them.



You know, have you ever, and I do mean EVER said anything positive about law enforcement?

Compared to St Petersburg's police, our cops are pro-active, selfless, fearless, and utterly trustworthy. Actually, apart from harassing skateboarders a little more than I think is necessary, our cops are pretty good. Are you really happy now?


And yes, they are right, seeing and saying you know are 2 different things. And print beer bottles? Really? You think that's the best thing for a police department to occupy themselves with? Fingerprinting a beer bottle so they can cite someone with a fucking misdemeanor? Why don't you try doing the job before constantly trashing us you fucking asshole.


But still it's kind of funny that in my post I said that the police have a threshold of damage or threat before they will do a certain level of investigation, and then in your whiny response, you say that the police don't do the kind of stuff I said they wouldn't do. And BTW Mr "Us" , throwing beer bottles as described is a felony.

790.19 Shooting into or throwing deadly missiles into dwellings, public or private buildings, occupied or not occupied; vessels, aircraft, buses, railroad cars, streetcars, or other vehicles.

Whoever, wantonly or maliciously, shoots at, within, or into, or throws any missile or hurls or projects a stone or other hard substance which would produce death or great bodily harm, at, within, or in any public or private building, occupied or unoccupied, or public or private bus or any train, locomotive, railway car, caboose, cable railway car, street railway car, monorail car, or vehicle of any kind which is being used or occupied by any person, or any boat, vessel, ship, or barge lying in or plying the waters of this state, or aircraft flying through the airspace of this state shall be guilty of a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

MrsSmith
03-24-2011, 09:51 PM
I don't have a problem with peaceful protests. I have a problem with people who kill doctors and use their antiabortion political views to justify doing so. Or those who burn clinics and say they are saving babies by doing so.

So do the rest of us. Which explains why it's so rare. :rolleyes:

MrsSmith
03-24-2011, 09:59 PM
Meh - I saw plenty beyond merely "shedding no tears". Hell, I was in an abortion thread at CC the other day, where there were a couple people actively fantasizing that a woman, who was thinking of getting an abortion, would die an untimely death. One can't maintain the level of vitriolic rhetoric of the pro-life movement, without expecting those kinds of results. When Dr. Tiller happened, it was like that, multiplied by a thousand.



I don't.



Sure it is rare - but this particular issue does seem to inspire violence in this country, more than most others.

Quite frankly though, if pro-lifers *really* had the courage of their convictions, and *really* believed that a zygote was the moral equivalent of a person (they don't) - they *would* take up arms... I don't know many people who would be cowardly enough to sit by and do nothing but pray if the law allowed mothers to murder their 5 year old kids for arbitrary reasons.

At least we wouldn't be explaining why a 5 year old doesn't think or feel pain, and isn't self-aware enough to deserve a right to life. We wouldn't make the stupid argument that because it's legal, it somehow isn't murder. We wouldn't insist that humanity alone does not give a right-to-life, that only the wilbur-worshipped MIND gives a right to life...which is why electronic devices that actually think should have more rights than the segment of humanity wilbur singles out as being not-human-enough. No matter how you slice it, the one that defends the murder is worse than the one that does everything legally possible to stop it.

wilbur
03-25-2011, 08:04 AM
Hardly. Far more violence is committed in the name of other political causes in the US.

Sure, I don't doubt it, I didn't say abortion was THE most violence-inspiring issue. I said it seems to inspire more than most. Here is my *actual* quote:


Sure it is rare - but this particular issue does seem to inspire violence in this country, more than most others.

So I would expect you to be able to find some issues that consistently inspire more violence than abortion... duh. Though, that aside, I'm not sure your stats below actually do that. They are just too vague and quite frankly, don't offer proper comparisons.




For example,
BATFE statistics show the following from 1993-1997:

Abortion Clinics:

Damages due to explosives: $1,009,050
Arson (January 1, 1995 to October 5, 1999): 61 actual and attempted
Injuries: 7



Ok.



Commercial Enterprises (other than abortion clinics)

Damages due to explosives: over $500,000,000
Injuries: 1,224 and 47 killed

School bombings injured 127 people, and mailbox bombs killed 40.


I would find it highly surprising that these school bombings and damages to private enterprise were inspired by a single political issue. Admittedly, that's a hard thing to measure - but you have too, to make these comparisons relevant.



Churches and synagogues

Arson (January 1, 1995 to October 5, 1999): 827 actual and attempted
In other words, the ratio of arson is 1:14 abortion clinic/churches and synagogues



According to the pro-life league, there are a whopping 745 abortion clinics in this country (and this has remained relatively constant for a long period of time, according to Guttmacher). The Hartford Institute estimates there are 335,000 religious congregations in the US (not sure how old this is).

So... 61/745 vs 827/335,000....

That's 8% and a quarter of a quarter of a percent (or .025%), respectively. I don't know about you, but %8 seems like a lot.

And of course, the number of schools and private enterprises (that are not abortion clinics) similarly dwarf the numbers of abortion providers, and might also be at a comparatively low risk for violence, next to abortion clinics.

So in short - your numbers don't make sense, and to top it all off, I fully expect us to find be able to find several issues which inspire more violence than abortion.... so what are you on about again?!

wilbur
03-25-2011, 08:17 AM
At least we wouldn't be explaining why a 5 year old doesn't think or feel pain, and isn't self-aware enough to deserve a right to life.

Great! I wouldn't either! That would be stupid.


We wouldn't make the stupid argument that because it's legal, it somehow isn't murder.

Great! I wouldn't either! That would be stupid.


We wouldn't insist that humanity alone does not give a right-to-life, that only the wilbur-worshipped MIND gives a right to life...

Define "humanity".



which is why electronic devices that actually think should have more rights than the segment of humanity wilbur singles out as being not-human-enough.

What do you think our minds are? So far as we can tell, they are highly specialized and complex patterns of electrical activity produced by a biological substrate that we call our "brain". IF other substrates, like silicon, could produce similar highly complex, aware patterns of electrical activity (though its not clear yet, if silicon could), then sure... we would have moral obligations with respect to them.

Its morally indefensible to take any other position on the matter.


No matter how you slice it, the one that defends the murder is worse than the one that does everything legally possible to stop it.

Who defends murder? I certainly don't.

MrsSmith
03-26-2011, 07:18 AM
Great! I wouldn't either! That would be stupid.



Great! I wouldn't either! That would be stupid.



Define "humanity".



What do you think our minds are? So far as we can tell, they are highly specialized and complex patterns of electrical activity produced by a biological substrate that we call our "brain". IF other substrates, like silicon, could produce similar highly complex, aware patterns of electrical activity (though its not clear yet, if silicon could), then sure... we would have moral obligations with respect to them.

Its morally indefensible to take any other position on the matter.



Who defends murder? I certainly don't.


Uhh.... you claimed that "brainwaves" appear at week 8. And the purpose of this claim was to demonstrate that a mind could exist prior the ~24th week, in order to refute my claims that abortions are permissible - according to my standards - until the 20th week or so. (20-24 weeks is the marker that I have been standing by as the probably beginning of consciousness... when activity in the cerebral cortex begins.. the part of the brain responsible for higher consciousness). Unfortunately, the quoted bit above simply talks about activity in the brainstem.... and later in the paper it says the following about the brainstem (guess you didnt read this far):

...

This is a fallacy. Non-responsiveness to pain can indicate a lack of consciousness (not necessarily), but stimulus to pain is not necessarily a good indicator OF consciousness. The type of pain responses in early fetuses is similar to that of folk in persistent vegetative states, and are caused by reflex arcs. Nerve signals travel to the spine and then signals are sent back out to relevant muscles, mediated only by the spinal column. When the signals hit the spine, another signal is sent to the brain, while signals are already in transit to the relevant limb in order to cause a reflex response. Your reflexes happen before the signal even hits your brain and before you have any conscious sensation of pain. And when there is no actual conscious brain there to detect the pain, its like a tree falling in the forest when no one is around - nobody hears it.


.Gee, this looks exactly as though you defend murder based on the idea that only some humans are human enough to deserve a right to life. Imagine that. I suppose your box of electronics will feel pain? Your worship of "thought and consciousness" is, strangely enough, a religion that worships something far less substantial than the God you deny.

wilbur
03-26-2011, 09:36 AM
Gee, this looks exactly as though you defend murder based on the idea that only some humans are human enough to deserve a right to life.

Maybe because the only thing you see when you read the words of someone who disagrees with you on this issue is, "Murder, murder, murder... murder. Murdermurder, murder murder. MURDER! Murder.... and murder. Murder or murder, murder. Murder!" But that's your bad, not mine. Rational, reasonable people - even those who disagree - can clearly see that I am not, and never have, defended murder.

Of course, its funny how when you read about some *actual* murders (genocides of the Caananites, and such), you read it as "God's just moving candles from one room to another".

Twisted.


Imagine that. I suppose your box of electronics will feel pain?

Its *all* hypothetical, at this point, so we'll just say yes. You keep bringing this up, like its absurd conclusion, that other intelligent beings - artificial, alien, or other - are beings to who deserve moral regard. That's not absurd to me, that's a given. I'd like to hear how you justify any belief to the contrary.

Granted, we will most likely never have to deal with genuine artificial or alien intelligence in our lifetimes - but it's still a given, that if we did - there would be some moral obligations and duties of the type we owe our fellow mindful creatures.



Your worship of "thought and consciousness" is, strangely enough, a religion that worships something far less substantial than the God you deny.

Define "religion".