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Gingersnap
03-30-2011, 11:00 AM
Take Two: Donald Trump Releases Official Birth Certificate

March 29, 2011 1:11 PM

ABC News Michael Falcone reports:

Donald Trump learned the hard way this week that if you're going to call on the president to release his official birth certificate, you'd better do the same.

Trump, who has been putting pressure on Obama lately to make public his long-form birth certificate from Hawaii, decided to set a good example and release his own on Monday. Only problem was, the document that Trump provided to the conservative Website Newsmax wasn't his actual birth certificate, but rather a "hospital certificate of birth."

On Tuesday, Trump, who is contemplating a presidential run in 2012, sought to correct the oversight, providing a copy of his official birth certificate issued by the New York City Department of Health to ABC News.


http://i52.tinypic.com/34te9ts.jpg
See a larger version HERE.

It shows that "Donald John Trump" was born June 14, 1946 in Jamaica Hospital in Queens.It lists his father as Fred C. Trump and his mother as Mary Mac Leod. The date of the report is listed as June 14, 1946.

The image came with an accompanying memo from a member of Trump's staff.

"A 'birth certificate' and a 'certificate of live birth' are in no way the same thing, even though in some cases they use some of the same words," wrote Trump staffer Thuy Colayco in a message to ABC News. "One officially confirms and records a newborn child’s identity and details of his or her birth, while the other only confirms that someone reported the birth of a child. Also, a 'certificate of live birth' is very easy to get because the standards are much lower, while a 'birth certificate' is only gotten through a long and detailed process wherein identity must be proved beyond any doubt. If you had only a certificate of live birth, you would not be able to get a proper passport from the Post Office or a driver’s license from the Department of Motor Vehicles. Therefore, there is very significant difference between a 'certificate of live birth' and a 'birth certificate' and one should never be confused with the other."

ABC news (http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/03/donald-trump-releases-official-birth-certificate.html)

Adam Wood
03-30-2011, 11:34 AM
"A 'birth certificate' and a 'certificate of live birth' are in no way the same thing, Oh for fuck's sake!

OK. Then five $20 bills is not the same thing as a $100 bill, and therefore those five Jacksons are somehow worth less than $100.


That's the stupidest fucking argument I've heard yet by these idiotic birthers steeped in denial.


"One officially confirms and records a newborn child’s identity and details of his or her birth, while the other only confirms that someone reported the birth of a child.Bullshit. A COLB confirms that a birth certificate has been issued and is on file. YOU CANNOT GET A COLB UNLESS AND UNTIL THERE IS A BIRTH CERTIFICATE IN EXISTENCE.


Also, a 'certificate of live birth' is very easy to get because the standards are much lower, while a 'birth certificate' is only gotten through a long and detailed process wherein identity must be proved beyond any doubt.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. The standards are exactly the same in all 50 states, you feckless liar. There is not one single state out there that says "we'll give any ol' body a COLB, but if you want a long-form birth certificate, you have to set yourself on fire and run in circles before we'll release it to you." All states, ALL of them, have their own standards of how and to whom proof of birth will be given, and in what form. Hawaii does not release original birth certificates. Period. End of story. A COLB is all anyone can get if they were born in Hawaii.

If you had only a certificate of live birth, you would not be able to get a proper passport from the Post Office or a driver’s license from the Department of Motor Vehicles.
And that's just a bald-faced Goddamned lie. I must help at least 75 people per year get a new passport in a hurry, and every time, I send in a COLB to the State Department and that is plenty satisfactory proof to them that someone was born in the United States.

Therefore, there is very significant difference between a 'certificate of live birth' and a 'birth certificate' and one should never be confused with the other."
Only if you just flat out make up shit that isn't true, you liar.




I might have actually considered possibly voting for Trump, but not any more! If he's going to let some lying fuckwad make a fool of him in front of God and everybody, and no doubt pay that liar rather handsomely to do so, then Trump has no business whatsoever sitting in the big chair on Pennsylvania Avenue.

Gingersnap
03-30-2011, 11:48 AM
Let's just see his long form birth certificate along with all his school records. Personally, I think he was born here but he used dual-citizen status to obtain favorable consideration in financial aid, housing, and acceptance during his college years.

Let's just see everything. I know that Bush had a slightly better college GPA in a harder program than Kerry because they both released all the information.

Adam Wood
03-30-2011, 11:51 AM
Let's just see his long form birth certificate along with all his school records. Personally, I think he was born here but he used dual-citizen status to obtain favorable consideration in financial aid, housing, and acceptance during his college years.

Let's just see everything. I know that Bush had a slightly better college GPA in a harder program than Kerry because they both released all the information.Which part of "you can't because of Hawaiian law" is unclear?

Rebel Yell
03-30-2011, 11:54 AM
Which part of "you can't because of Hawaiian law" is unclear?

"Arizona Law" has never stopped him. :D

Gingersnap
03-30-2011, 12:01 PM
Which part of "you can't because of Hawaiian law" is unclear?

Which part of "the President of the United States can see his own birth certificate" is unclear to you? The President merely has to request it.

Adam Wood
03-30-2011, 12:21 PM
Which part of "the President of the United States can see his own birth certificate" is unclear to you?The part where it's not true.
The President merely has to request it.

No, he cannot just go get his long form birth certificate. The Hawaii law is clear. Even if you're the President of the United States, you don't get to see your original birth certificate. Hawaii keeps the original on file and no one gets to go see their own or anyone else's. The law makes it crystal clear that it is illegal for the Department of Health to show the original birth certificate to people. So no, he cannot just request that it be released and then that happens. What they will give out is a COLB, which has already been seen a million times over.

You can, however, all by yourself, send an SASE and $10 to the Department of Health in Hawaii and they will send you back a letter, complete with state seal on it, that will confirm that yes, they do indeed have a birth record for Barack Obama born in Hawaii in August of 1961. Hawaii is, to the best of my knowledge, the only state in the union that will actually do this for anyone who is willing to pay the fee and postage.

Novaheart
03-30-2011, 12:22 PM
Which part of "the President of the United States can see his own birth certificate" is unclear to you? The President merely has to request it.

What do you think you will see on that birth certificate?

Gingersnap
03-30-2011, 12:26 PM
What do you think you will see on that birth certificate?

I dunno but if he releases his long form birth certificate, he will pretty much have to release other records (similar to the ones released by other Presidential candidates) and those are the records I want to see.

Gingersnap
03-30-2011, 12:29 PM
The part where it's not true.

No, he cannot just go get his long form birth certificate. The Hawaii law is clear. Even if you're the President of the United States, you don't get to see your original birth certificate. Hawaii keeps the original on file and no one gets to go see their own or anyone else's. The law makes it crystal clear that it is illegal for the Department of Health to show the original birth certificate to people. So no, he cannot just request that it be released and then that happens. What they will give out is a COLB, which has already been seen a million times over.

You can, however, all by yourself, send an SASE and $10 to the Department of Health in Hawaii and they will send you back a letter, complete with state seal on it, that will confirm that yes, they do indeed have a birth record for Barack Obama born in Hawaii in August of 1961. Hawaii is, to the best of my knowledge, the only state in the union that will actually do this for anyone who is willing to pay the fee and postage.


– A privacy law that shields birth certificates has prompted Democratic Gov. Neil Abercrombie to abandon efforts to dispel claims that President Obama was born outside Hawaii, his office says. The state's attorney general told the governor that privacy laws bar him from disclosing an individual's birth documentation without the person's consent. "There is nothing more that Gov. Abercrombie can do within the law to produce a document," said the governor's spokeswoman. "Unfortunately, there are conspirators who will continue to question the citizenship of our president."

Newsr (http://www.newser.com/story/110345/hawaii-law-bars-release-of-obama-birth-certificate.html)

Adam Wood
03-30-2011, 12:29 PM
I dunno but if he releases his long form birth certificate, he will pretty much have to release other records (similar to the ones released by other Presidential candidates) and those are the records I want to see.Huh? :confused:

How in the world does his birth certificate have anything to do with his college transcripts? How on earth does releasing his long-form birth certificate (something that he cannot do under the law) in any way cause those other records to be released?

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Adam Wood
03-30-2011, 01:50 PM
Newsr (http://www.newser.com/story/110345/hawaii-law-bars-release-of-obama-birth-certificate.html)

The actual law (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0014_0003.htm).


§338-14.3 Verification in lieu of a certified copy. (a) Subject to the requirements of section 338-18, the department of health, upon request, shall furnish to any applicant, in lieu of the issuance of a certified copy, a verification of the existence of a certificate and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event that pertains to the certificate.
(b) A verification shall be considered for all purposes certification that the vital event did occur and that the facts of the event are as stated by the applicant.
(c) Verification may be made in written, electronic, or other form approved by the director of health.
(d) The fee for a verification in lieu of a certified copy shall be a maximum of one half of the fee established in section 338-14.5 for the first certified copy of a certificate issued.
(e) Fees received for verifications in lieu of certified copies shall be remitted, and one half of the fee shall be deposited to the credit of the vital statistics improvement special fund in section 338-14.6 and the remainder of the fee shall be deposited to the credit of the state general fund. [L 2001, c 246, §1; am L 2010, c 55, §1]
More of the law (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0018.htm):
§338-18 Disclosure of records. (a) To protect the integrity of vital statistics records, to ensure their proper use, and to ensure the efficient and proper administration of the vital statistics system, it shall be unlawful for any person to permit inspection of, or to disclose information contained in vital statistics records, or to copy or issue a copy of all or part of any such record, except as authorized by this part or by rules adopted by the department of health.
(b) The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons shall be considered to have a direct and tangible interest in a public health statistics record:
(1) The registrant;

(2) The spouse of the registrant;

(3) A parent of the registrant;

(4) A descendant of the registrant;

(5) A person having a common ancestor with the registrant;

(6) A legal guardian of the registrant;

(7) A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;

(8) A personal representative of the registrant's estate;

(9) A person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;

(10) Adoptive parents who have filed a petition for adoption and who need to determine the death of one or more of the prospective adopted child's natural or legal parents;

(11) A person who needs to determine the marital status of a former spouse in order to determine the payment of alimony;

(12) A person who needs to determine the death of a nonrelated co-owner of property purchased under a joint tenancy agreement; and

(13) A person who needs a death certificate for the determination of payments under a credit insurance policy.

(c) The department may permit the use [of] the data contained in public health statistical records for research purposes only, but no identifying use thereof shall be made.
(d) Index data consisting of name and sex of the registrant, type of vital event, and such other data as the director may authorize shall be made available to the public.
(e) The department may permit persons working on genealogy projects access to microfilm or other copies of vital records of events that occurred more than seventy-five years prior to the current year.
(f) Subject to this section, the department may direct its local agents to make a return upon filing of birth, death, and fetal death certificates with them, of certain data shown to federal, state, territorial, county, or municipal agencies. Payment by these agencies for these services may be made as the department shall direct.
(g) The department shall not issue a verification in lieu of a certified copy of any such record, or any part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant requesting a verification is:
(1) A person who has a direct and tangible interest in the record but requests a verification in lieu of a certified copy;

(2) A governmental agency or organization who for a legitimate government purpose maintains and needs to update official lists of persons in the ordinary course of the agency's or organization's activities;

(3) A governmental, private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks confirmation of a certified copy of any such record submitted in support of or information provided about a vital event relating to any such record and contained in an official application made in the ordinary course of the agency's or organization's activities by an individual seeking employment with, entrance to, or the services or products of the agency or organization;

(4) A private or government attorney who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record which was acquired during the course of or for purposes of legal proceedings; or

(5) An individual employed, endorsed, or sponsored by a governmental, private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record in preparation of reports or publications by the agency or organization for research or educational purposes. [L 1949, c 327, §22; RL 1955, §57-21; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; am L 1967, c 30, §2; HRS §338-18; am L 1977, c 118, §1; am L 1991, c 190, §1; am L 1997, c 305, §5; am L 2001, c 246, §2]

§338-19 Photostatic or typewritten copies of records. The department of health is authorized to prepare typewritten, photostatic, or microphotographic copies of any records and files in its office, which by reason of age, usage, or otherwise are in such condition that they can no longer be conveniently consulted or used without danger of serious injury or destruction thereof, and to certify to the correctness of such copies. The typewritten, photostatic, or microphotographic copies shall be competent evidence in all courts of the State with like force and effect as the original. [L 1949, c 327, §23; RL 1955, §57-22; am L 1957, c 8, §1; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; HRS §338-19]

He can't just release anything. The law does not allow that. The law says COLB is what gets released. That's it. Period. End of story. Been that way since 1974.

Gingersnap
03-30-2011, 03:03 PM
He can't just release anything. The law does not allow that. The law says COLB is what gets released. That's it. Period. End of story. Been that way since 1974.

I'v worked with government agencies way too long to be impressed by state statutes governing state agencies. If the President of the United States wanted a copy of his own long form birth certificate, he'd get it. The Certification of Live Birth may be all the state will issue to the hoi polloi but I'm sure they can come up with a genuine Certificate of Birth when requested by President on the grounds that it is of vital interest (as it is).

fettpett
03-30-2011, 03:11 PM
I'v worked with government agencies way too long to be impressed by state statutes governing state agencies. If the President of the United States wanted a copy of his own long form birth certificate, he'd get it. The Certification of Live Birth may be all the state will issue to the hoi polloi but I'm sure they can come up with a genuine Certificate of Birth when requested by President on the grounds that it is of vital interest (as it is).

and considering the guy was suppose to provide it YEARS ago as an Illinois State Senator, then as a Federal Senator and never did so, shows the guy doesn't have any respect for the rule of law to begin with.

Adam Wood
03-30-2011, 03:13 PM
I'v worked with government agencies way too long to be impressed by state statutes governing state agencies. If the President of the United States wanted a copy of his own long form birth certificate, he'd get it. The Certification of Live Birth may be all the state will issue to the hoi polloi but I'm sure they can come up with a genuine Certificate of Birth when requested by President on the grounds that it is of vital interest (as it is).And this is what every birther argument eventually devolves to: "he's the President, so he can get it." Well, no, the law does not say that, and Presidents are not above the law. Not even the Obamessiah.


There's all sorts of other shit he hasn't released. Focusing on his birth certificate, when he has already done exactly what he would have to do to get a passport (which would also be automatic proof of Presidential eligibility), is just fuggin stoopid.

Adam Wood
03-30-2011, 03:16 PM
and considering the guy was suppose to provide it YEARS ago as an Illinois State Senator, then as a Federal Senator and never did so, shows the guy doesn't have any respect for the rule of law to begin with.He did provide it. The COLB is legal proof that he was born in Hawaii, no matter how much people try to claim that it isn't. It is exactly what the State Department expects when they issue passports.

fettpett
03-30-2011, 03:21 PM
He did provide it. The COLB is legal proof that he was born in Hawaii, no matter how much people try to claim that it isn't. It is exactly what the State Department expects when they issue passports.

he spent YEARS not providing ANYTHING, not to the IL State Senate and then not to the US Senate in clear violation of the law, that was my point.

frankly i couldn't care less about his birth, the asstard is not fit to run a Taco Bell let alone the United States of America

AmPat
03-30-2011, 04:56 PM
The part where it's not true.

No, he cannot just go get his long form birth certificate. The Hawaii law is clear. Even if you're the President of the United States, you don't get to see your original birth certificate. Hawaii keeps the original on file and no one gets to go see their own or anyone else's. The law makes it crystal clear that it is illegal for the Department of Health to show the original birth certificate to people. So no, he cannot just request that it be released and then that happens. What they will give out is a COLB, which has already been seen a million times over.

You can, however, all by yourself, send an SASE and $10 to the Department of Health in Hawaii and they will send you back a letter, complete with state seal on it, that will confirm that yes, they do indeed have a birth record for Barack Obama born in Hawaii in August of 1961. Hawaii is, to the best of my knowledge, the only state in the union that will actually do this for anyone who is willing to pay the fee and postage.

So if he is so concerned (and hiding behind Hawaii law), why is he spending millions to keep it hidden? It should cost him nothing. Unless of course the release reveals something he doesn't want revealed? Of course most of his millions is spent keeping his poor academic records out of the public eye. We wouldn't be able to handle the drama of proving that the smartest man in America is DUmber than the average fifth grader.

AmPat
03-30-2011, 04:58 PM
And this is what every birther argument eventually devolves to: "he's the President, so he can get it." Well, no, the law does not say that, and Presidents are not above the law. Not even the Obamessiah.
There's all sorts of other shit he hasn't released. Focusing on his birth certificate, when he has already done exactly what he would have to do to get a passport (which would also be automatic proof of Presidential eligibility), is just fuggin stoopid.

Apparently he is. The court ruled OBlah Blha care unconstitutional. O Blah Blah pushes ahead.

Adam Wood
03-30-2011, 05:21 PM
So if he is so concerned (and hiding behind Hawaii law), why is he spending millions to keep it hidden?He's not. That's simply untrue.

It should cost him nothing.
It does cost him nothing. He hasn't spent any money to keep his birth certificate "secret."

Unless of course the release reveals something he doesn't want revealed? Of course most of his millions is spent keeping his poor academic records out of the public eye. We wouldn't be able to handle the drama of proving that the smartest man in America is DUmber than the average fifth grader.
Actually, all of his money that he has spent on these issues revolves around things other than his birth certificate..

Gingersnap
03-30-2011, 05:33 PM
There's all sorts of other shit he hasn't released. Focusing on his birth certificate, when he has already done exactly what he would have to do to get a passport (which would also be automatic proof of Presidential eligibility), is just fuggin stoopid.

I'm not a birther - I think the guy was born in Hawaii. I just want to see all of the same massive amount of personal information that Bush and McCain provided. In fact, since Obama is younger, I expect there are many additional records available on his schooling, passport usage, financial aid, prep school grades and method of payment, and so much more!

Presidents and presidential candidates are not private citizens. I want to see legislation requiring public documentation of eligibility to run along with requirements for full-disclosure of all educational, travel, employment, criminal or civil legal records (including all real estate, investment, and capital gains info), and medical information. There may be more but that's a start.

Wei Wu Wei
03-30-2011, 05:34 PM
lol people really believe some dude just strolled into the white house and no one bothered to even check his paperwork

Wei Wu Wei
03-30-2011, 05:35 PM
i'm no birther

i'm just...asking questions ....




I too believe that Obama's 2nd grade book report is important and needs to be brought to light. I haven't seen it, have you? what must he be hiding???

If you want to criticize Obama misrepresenting his identity you can start with his campaign running as a change from Bush when actually he's the same.

namvet
03-30-2011, 07:23 PM
that looks about the same type and size as mine. the big one is obvious a photo shop job

Kay
03-30-2011, 10:27 PM
Well now we all know what to bring up if we want to see Adam blow a gasket.

fettpett
03-30-2011, 10:41 PM
Well now we all know what to bring up if we want to see Adam blow a gasket.

no kidding LOL

Gingersnap
03-30-2011, 10:50 PM
i'm no birther

i'm just...asking questions ....

I too believe that Obama's 2nd grade book report is important and needs to be brought to light. I haven't seen it, have you? what must he be hiding???

I know what grades Kerry made in Divinity school. I know when Bush joined the Guard and what his fitreps (or whatever they called them) looked like. The 'smartest guy in the room' doesn't even have any papers from being the editor of the Harvard Law Review.

I'm not being unreasonable in wanting the same level of information from him that we have from others.