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View Full Version : Stolen Valor allowed by 9th Circus



AmPat
04-02-2011, 04:35 PM
http://www.military.com/news/article/court-stolen-valor-act-unconstitutional.html?ESRC=army-a.nl

I'm for freedom of speech and certainly for less govt, but I'm having trouble accepting that the Founding Fathers meant Lying and deceiving were included in freedom of speech.:mad:

FlaGator
04-02-2011, 05:04 PM
http://www.military.com/news/article/court-stolen-valor-act-unconstitutional.html?ESRC=army-a.nl

I'm for freedom of speech and certainly for less govt, but I'm having trouble accepting that the Founding Fathers meant Lying and deceiving were included in freedom of speech.:mad:

Hell, half the internet is built on lying and deceiving others. :D

Novaheart
04-02-2011, 05:23 PM
http://www.military.com/news/article/court-stolen-valor-act-unconstitutional.html?ESRC=army-a.nl

I'm for freedom of speech and certainly for less govt, but I'm having trouble accepting that the Founding Fathers meant Lying and deceiving were included in freedom of speech.:mad:

If it's any consolation, it appears that the man in question is in prison anyway on another matter in which his lying rose to the level of a crime. We can reasonably assume that the underlying reason is the same- he's a dishonest person.

That being said, truly the only standard which can be applied would be the one which applies to all misrepresentations. Was it for profit? Was it at the expense of another? Now I suspect that you see Stolen Valor as coming at the expense of others, but we're not talking about a philosophical definition of expense. Since there is no inherent dollar value on valor, then Stolen Valor does not diminish valor in an articulable way.

And let's be honest here- this really hasn't been much of an issue. People have been claiming to be war heroes or exaggerating their contribution for about as long as there have been soldiers. Folk history, legend, myth, oral histories, epics, and even national narratives have been based on or embellished with bragging. Even the symbology of ancient wall drawings and hieroglyphs portray victorious soldiers as he-men or even gods, and kings as giants.

I once took a local newspaper to task for the way they print obituaries which clearly contain errors of fact, grammar, and spelling. The editor told me that they never check, verify, correct, or make suggestions when it comes to obituaries- the area is simply too touchy. He specifically mention those people who make claims about the military career or heroism of a deceased family member. So even in our modern time of factual accountability, the stories men tell are recorded as they were told and not necessarily as they happened.

txradioguy
04-03-2011, 06:45 AM
And let's be honest here- this really hasn't been much of an issue.

Maybe not to you or anyone else who has worn the uniform.

AmPat
04-03-2011, 03:27 PM
If it's any consolation, it appears that the man in question is in prison anyway on another matter in which his lying rose to the level of a crime. We can reasonably assume that the underlying reason is the same- he's a dishonest person.

That being said, truly the only standard which can be applied would be the one which applies to all misrepresentations. Was it for profit? Was it at the expense of another? Now I suspect that you see Stolen Valor as coming at the expense of others, but we're not talking about a philosophical definition of expense. Since there is no inherent dollar value on valor, then Stolen Valor does not diminish valor in an articulable way.

And let's be honest here- this really hasn't been much of an issue. People have been claiming to be war heroes or exaggerating their contribution for about as long as there have been soldiers. Folk history, legend, myth, oral histories, epics, and even national narratives have been based on or embellished with bragging. Even the symbology of ancient wall drawings and hieroglyphs portray victorious soldiers as he-men or even gods, and kings as giants.

I once took a local newspaper to task for the way they print obituaries which clearly contain errors of fact, grammar, and spelling. The editor told me that they never check, verify, correct, or make suggestions when it comes to obituaries- the area is simply too touchy. He specifically mention those people who make claims about the military career or heroism of a deceased family member. So even in our modern time of factual accountability, the stories men tell are recorded as they were told and not necessarily as they happened.
I'm always honest, so I don't require this nudge. I don't care what monetary value is (or is not) involved. I don't care that these turds act like heroes.

I just cannot accept that the Founding Fathers were covering lying bags of CRAP as protected speech. The origins of that freedom was based in actual events. It was not intended to cover the actual position of the mouth and tongue while expressing spent air forcefully through the mouth and over the vocal cords via muscle contraction of the diaphragm.

Novaheart
04-03-2011, 04:10 PM
Maybe not to you or anyone else who has worn the uniform.

That broken record gets old. The statement had to do with the frequency with which this issue presents itself, not your personal feelings.

Novaheart
04-03-2011, 04:16 PM
I just cannot accept that the Founding Fathers were covering lying bags of CRAP as protected speech. The origins of that freedom was based in actual events. It was not intended to cover the actual position of the mouth and tongue while expressing spent air forcefully through the mouth and over the vocal cords via muscle contraction of the diaphragm.

My perception is that the law has been more tolerant of fraud as one goes back in time, rather than less. The Founding Fathers lived in a world of no implied warranty, of buyer beware. Now what was different was that the law would accept your defense of honor back then and it probably would prosecute you now for the same act of punishing a dishonorable man.

fettpett
04-03-2011, 05:29 PM
That broken record gets old. The statement had to do with the frequency with which this issue presents itself, not your personal feelings.


The Stolen Valor Act of 2005, signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 20, 2006,[1] is a U.S. law that broadens the provisions of previous U.S. law addressing the unauthorized wear, manufacture, sale or claim (either written or oral) of any military decorations and medals. It is a federal misdemeanor offense, which carries a punishment of imprisonment for no more than 1 year and/or a fine; the scope previously covered only the Medal of Honor.

um...light sentence for something that is essentially a dishonor to all the men and women that have worn the uniform.

You would be surprised how often it happens.

txradioguy
04-04-2011, 01:02 AM
That broken record gets old. The statement had to do with the frequency with which this issue presents itself, not your personal feelings.

They hell it does. Again your lack of ever having worn the uniform comes shining through.

It may get old to you but it doesn't get old to those of us that see what it takes to be awarded mdals for Valor.

It doesn't get old to those of us who have had the honor and privilege of meeting someone who is a recipient of the Medal of Honor or DSC. Read the citations of what they've done...then get back to me on whether this is a broken record.

Once you're been with these people...read what they did...those lucky enough to survive...then you begin to understand why it offends those of us in uniform that some laszy dirbag SOB would sully the Medal...ANY medal they didn't earn by putting it on their chest and pretending they did something brave or heroic.

This has nothing to do with personal feelings Nova and everything to do with respect for those that served before me...with me and who will serve after me...and for the sacrifices that some of them will make by giving their life to save others.

It's a concept that you will never understand or grasp.

Novaheart
04-04-2011, 01:17 AM
They hell it does. Again your lack of ever having worn the uniform comes shining through.

It may get old to you but it doesn't get old to those of us that see what it takes to be awarded mdals for Valor.

It doesn't get old to those of us who have had the honor and privilege of meeting someone who is a recipient of the Medal of Honor or DSC. Read the citations of what they've done...then get back to me on whether this is a broken record.

Once you're been with these people...read what they did...those lucky enough to survive...then you begin to understand why it offends those of us in uniform that some laszy dirbag SOB would sully the Medal...ANY medal they didn't earn by putting it on their chest and pretending they did something brave or heroic.

This has nothing to do with personal feelings Nova and everything to do with respect for those that served before me...with me and who will serve after me...and for the sacrifices that some of them will make by giving their life to save others.

It's a concept that you will never understand or grasp.

This isn't actually the forum to address your attitude or whether I think you're entitled to it. Veterans forums usually have special rules which is why I typically stay out of them. The only reason I commented on this one was because it was an issue of law. Military experience or lack thereof does not make one more or less qualified to his opinion of the law.