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View Full Version : What to do about Amnesty?



djones520
05-11-2011, 10:40 PM
The idea seems to be getting a lot of play time again, so figured I'd see what the general thoughts on it are.

12 million possible illegals in this country, rounding them up and deporting all of them is going to be a near impossible task, that would probably cost us much more then we could honestly afford. So generally, I am against the idea of just booting everyone out. I think it would be a futile effort.

So, my suggestion is we offer amnesty on conditions. 1. No criminal record while having been within the US (asides from that initial border crossing). 2. A fee is paid for breaking that one law. Maybe $500 or so. 3. Steps taken by legal immigrants who gain citizenship are taken. Take that test, fill out the paperwork, etc... 4. After a short period proof of employment. No welfare junkies.

Basically, the ones who want to become American's stay. The ones who want to contribute to OUR society. Those who don't get a one way ticket out of here.

So what else?

Novaheart
05-11-2011, 10:59 PM
I oppose amnesty because we have already done this, and it only balloons in the next round.

How can anyone say that we can't deport the illegals, when the government of the United States has not even taken a stand, declared its intention, and essentially told these people to get out? Of course they hang on in hope, because people in the Republican and Democratic parties keep giving them hope.

Is there even one billboard in this country which says, "If you are an illegal alien, you are not welcome in this country. We will find you and deport you."?

We have billboards that say that they will find drug dealers. We have billboards asking people to turn in weapons. We have billboard to fight the spread of AIDS. We have billboards addressing crime and other social issues. But not one billboard telling the illegals to get out?

How can we know we will fail when we haven't even tried?

We have the FLorida Chamber of Commerce and the commercial growers in Florida opposing laws to ensure that workers are legally eligible to work. These are supposedly our leading citizens, and they are supporting illegal aliens staying in this country and working illegally? Has a government agency looked into these people? Is ICE showing up in tomato fields and checking social security cards? No.

This infuriates me.

Rockntractor
05-11-2011, 11:19 PM
We can and have deported large numbers of illegals, in 1954 1,075,168 went back to Mexico. Some estimates are as high as 13 million illegal Mexican nationals were returned by Eisenhower, we can return them, we just don't want to. They will vote Democrat.

djones520
05-11-2011, 11:26 PM
We can and have deported large numbers of illegals, in 1954 1,075,168 went back to Mexico. Some estimates are as high as 13 million illegal Mexican nationals were returned by Eisenhower, we can return them, we just don't want to. They will vote Democrat.

And to do it today, we have estimates of 2.6 trillion dollars to get it done. You want to foot that bill?

And the official number under Eisenhower was about 2 million, and it's believed to be inflated.

Rockntractor
05-11-2011, 11:33 PM
And to do it today, we have estimates of 2.6 trillion dollars to get it done. You want to foot that bill?

And the official number under Eisenhower was about 2 million, and it's believed to be inflated.

Yeah, why even try when they will vote democrat, who do you think does those estimates.

megimoo
05-11-2011, 11:38 PM
Yeah, why even try when they will vote democrat, who do you think does those estimates.Dont confuse him with facts, he has his own !

djones520
05-11-2011, 11:39 PM
Yeah, why even try when they will vote democrat, who do you think does those estimates.

Do you need to be so glib? Just trying to have a constructive converstation about the issue.

I think with my idea, a great many would be deported (or just leave on their own). Not to many would want to stay with the strings attached.

Those that would, would most likely become productive members of our society. People who put that much effort into becoming US citizens do it because they want it. If we make it inconvenient for them, we're not going to be getting the people who are here for the free ride.

We want those people gone.

Rockntractor
05-11-2011, 11:42 PM
Do you need to be so glib? Just trying to have a constructive converstation about the issue.

I think with my idea, a great many would be deported (or just leave on their own). Not to many would want to stay with the strings attached.

Those that would, would most likely become productive members of our society. People who put that much effort into becoming US citizens do it because they want it. If we make it inconvenient for them, we're not going to be getting the people who are here for the free ride.

We want those people gone.

I'm not being Glib, I believe that to be the truth, to add to it there are a lot of businessmen from both parties that like this modern day equivalent to slave labor.

Rockntractor
05-11-2011, 11:44 PM
Those that would, would most likely become productive members of our society. People who put that much effort into becoming US citizens do it because they want it. If we make it inconvenient for them, we're not going to be getting the people who are here for the free ride.



Then can apply legally from their own country, no exceptions.
Reagan made a bad mistake!

djones520
05-11-2011, 11:44 PM
I'm not being Glib, I believe that to be the truth, to add to it there are a lot of businessmen from both parties that like this modern day equivalent to slave labor.

Which is also wrong. Give some a path to citizenship, they cannot be exploited like that. Give the others a boot to the ass, and then we don't have this "slave labor" for them anymore.

djones520
05-11-2011, 11:45 PM
Ok, is there anything bad from the idea of letting productive immigrants stay? Lets try that out, see what idea's we can get.

Wei Wu Wei
05-12-2011, 12:07 AM
Do what Ronald Reagan did.

He signed a bill strengthening border security while allowing a pathway to citizenship for immigrants who were here working and not committing crimes.

Makes sense.

Rockntractor
05-12-2011, 12:16 AM
Which is also wrong. Give some a path to citizenship, they cannot be exploited like that. Give the others a boot to the ass, and then we don't have this "slave labor" for them anymore.

Send them all home and they can apply for our legal path to citizenship.

Wei Wu Wei
05-12-2011, 12:20 AM
Send them all home and they can apply for our legal path to citizenship.

What do you do about splitting up families? Often times illegal immigrants have children in the US, which according the US Constitution makes them US citizens. You cannot deport US citizens, but if you break up their families you are almost certain to end up with children who have emotional problems and a disdain for the law. We want our immigrants to be productive members of society, and breaking up their families and deporting their parents is not a good way to do that.

Breaking up families just for a sense of retribution does more harm than good.

Novaheart
05-12-2011, 12:23 AM
We can and have deported large numbers of illegals, in 1954 1,075,168 went back to Mexico. Some estimates are as high as 13 million illegal Mexican nationals were returned by Eisenhower, we can return them, we just don't want to. They will vote Democrat.

Then why are Republicans in Florida fighting against immigration enforcement?

Wei Wu Wei
05-12-2011, 12:24 AM
The real truth is that the people who benefit most from illegal immigration are not the immigrants, but the scumbag employers who hire and exploit them ,knowing that they cannot claim rights. in the American south it is all to prevelant that migrant workers are exploited because their employers know they cannot legally claim their rights. they are often paid under the table at below minimum wage with absolutely no security or benefits.

While this is horrible, this sort of exploitation sustains the economy down here. It's not a pretty fact but it is the truth. If all of the illegal immigrants were to up and leave, the economy would collapse.

Profits come from exploiting labor, and illegal immigrants can be exploited more than legal citizens, so there is a HUGE amount of profit at stake in the immigration issue, and it mostly comes from employers.

This is the real reason why true immigration reform will never happen. Politicians are not pandering to illegal immigrants, they are pandering to the business owners who exploit them.

Wei Wu Wei
05-12-2011, 12:25 AM
Then why are Republicans in Florida fighting against immigration enforcement?

that should be obvious ;)


Just like the democrats talk big game about delivering workers rights and single payer health care (but never do, because that goes against their corporate interests) so does the republican party talk big game about enforcing immigration policies but of course they dont because that goes against their economic interests as well.

Rockntractor
05-12-2011, 12:28 AM
Then why are Republicans in Florida fighting against immigration enforcement?

See post 10.

Novaheart
05-12-2011, 12:32 AM
What do you do about splitting up families?

You allow the illegals to take their children with them.


.... which according the US Constitution makes them US citizens.

Actually that's according to a court ruling, not according to the US constitution. The 14th Amendment was not intended to make the children of illegal aliens or tourists US citizens. The fact that John McCain is a natural born US citizen makes this quite clear.

Wei Wu Wei
05-12-2011, 12:32 AM
Which is also wrong. Give some a path to citizenship, they cannot be exploited like that. Give the others a boot to the ass, and then we don't have this "slave labor" for them anymore.

immigrants who don't commit crimes (besides their immigration of course) should be given a path to citizenship so long as they pay a fine for their illegal immigration. if they have a clear criminal background they should be allowed to become citizens. they work here, they contribute to the american economy and they pay sales taxes on everyhing they purchase.

children who were brought here by their parents by no choice of their own should be allowed to stay, as long as they go to college or serve in the military or the peace corps or some other voluntary service (perhaps even community service).

they should be required to learn english and pass a citizenship test, but they should not be deported.

if they break other laws or act like scum, then they should be deported.

Wei Wu Wei
05-12-2011, 12:34 AM
You allow the illegals to take their children with them.

their parents and also the children themselves are not allowed to renounce their US citizenship. if they are born in America, they are US citizens. the parents cannot change this and the children cannot change this until they become of age.






Actually that's according to a court ruling, not according to the US constitution. The 14th Amendment was not intended to make the children of illegal aliens or tourists US citizens. The fact that John McCain is a natural born US citizen makes this quite clear.

The supreme court has already ruled on this. children born in the US are US citizens, they cannot have their citizenship revoked because of the crimes of their parents.

if we can punish people for the crimes of their ancestors then this opens up a whole new argument for Slave Reparations

Rockntractor
05-12-2011, 12:39 AM
I say a fleet of new low rider buses with nice wheels and custom paint, they can keep the buses when we are done hauling them back. Hand them applications for visas as they get off the bus and tell them no hard feelings for breaking in in the first place, they will be home in Mexico with amnesty. Everybody wins!:)

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/10world27sweirdestbuses6.jpg

Wei Wu Wei
05-12-2011, 12:43 AM
America and Mexico have an extremely strong trade relationship. If America is serious about addressing our illegal immigration problem, we should pressure Mexico to improve their domestic economic conditions, so that the people there aren't so desperate to have to cross the border illegally.

We have economic influence, we should use it. It would help the people of Mexico, and it would help secure our borders.

Rockntractor
05-12-2011, 12:47 AM
America and Mexico have an extremely strong trade relationship. If America is serious about addressing our illegal immigration problem, we should pressure Mexico to improve their domestic economic conditions, so that the people there aren't so desperate to have to cross the border illegally.

We have economic influence, we should use it. It would help the people of Mexico, and it would help secure our borders.

I agree with that fully, they have a very serious corruption problem that saps there resources.

megimoo
05-12-2011, 12:48 AM
Send them all home and they can apply for our legal path to citizenship.That makes sense but what about their babies ?Some were born of American fathers and Mexican mothers,how can we send them to Mexico ?

Wei Wu Wei
05-12-2011, 12:52 AM
I agree with that fully, they have a very serious corruption problem that saps there resources.

Yes they do.

I think America ignores their corruption because for so long they have provided us with a source of cheap labor.

Wei Wu Wei
05-12-2011, 12:53 AM
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/10world27sweirdestbuses6.jpg

almost perfect.

you just need some green LED lights on the bottom :D

Rockntractor
05-12-2011, 12:54 AM
That makes sense but what about their babies ?Some were born of American fathers and Mexican mothers,how can we send them to Mexico ?

There should be no reason that a child born here to illegals would have automatic citizenship. If a vacationer comes here from France and gives birth while they are visiting legally is the child an American citizen?
There is something wrong with a law that gives the babies of legals citizenship.
They can go home with their parents and come back when they are of legal age if we must continue this silly practice.

Wei Wu Wei
05-12-2011, 12:56 AM
There should be no reason that a child born here to illegals would have automatic citizenship. If a vacationer comes here from France and gives birth while they are visiting legally is the child an American citizen?
There is something wrong with a law that gives the babies of legals citizenship.
They can go home with their parents and come back when they are of legal age if we must continue this silly practice.

What is wrong with giving babies of illegals citizenship/

Think about what you are saying, you are claiming that a child should be punished because of the crimes of their parents. That opens up a HUGE hornets nest of problems.

Rockntractor
05-12-2011, 12:59 AM
Yes they do.

I think America ignores their corruption because for so long they have provided us with a source of cheap labor.

There is a lot of truth to this,.
Mexico is a beautiful place with abundant resources and hard working people, there is no reason why the government could not be changed to allow them to prosper, If Mexico were a just and free country we wouldn't have this problem, people from both sides would be going back and forth to work.

Rockntractor
05-12-2011, 01:00 AM
What is wrong with giving babies of illegals citizenship/

Think about what you are saying, you are claiming that a child should be punished because of the crimes of their parents. That opens up a HUGE hornets nest of problems.

If you follow the law as it stands it would separate them from their parents.

Wei Wu Wei
05-12-2011, 01:03 AM
There is a lot of truth to this,.
Mexico is a beautiful place with abundant resources and hard working people, there is no reason why the government could not be changed to allow them to prosper, If Mexico were a just and free country we wouldn't have this problem, people from both sides would be going back and forth to work.

I agree :)


There is much common ground to find.

It's important for the US to look beyond simple cheap labor and try to use our powerful position for good. We'll be securing our borders, improving our own economic opportunities for American Workers, and allowing Mexican workers to have ample economic opportunities in their own land.


In my opinion, and you may differ here, the powers that be are solely focused on exploiting labor for the benefit of big business, consequences be damned. When the economy is in trouble, they use immigration arguments to fuel anti-immigrant sentiment, so that workers spend more time fighting against each other, rather than working together to improve economic conditions in both countries.

Rockntractor
05-12-2011, 01:07 AM
I agree :)


There is much common ground to find.

It's important for the US to look beyond simple cheap labor and try to use our powerful position for good. We'll be securing our borders, improving our own economic opportunities for American Workers, and allowing Mexican workers to have ample economic opportunities in their own land.


In my opinion, and you may differ here, the powers that be are solely focused on exploiting labor for the benefit of big business, consequences be damned. When the economy is in trouble, they use immigration arguments to fuel anti-immigrant sentiment, so that workers spend more time fighting against each other, rather than working together to improve economic conditions in both countries.

I lay most of the fault with the Mexican government but our industries are guilty of a share of the blame.
Have you ever wondered why human rights abuses justify police actions in the mid east but the one south of our border is ignored?

megimoo
05-12-2011, 01:08 AM
There should be no reason that a child born here to illegals would have automatic citizenship. If a vacationer comes here from France and gives birth while they are visiting legally is the child an American citizen?
There is something wrong with a law that gives the babies of legals citizenship.
They can go home with their parents and come back when they are of legal age if we must continue this silly practice.

" If a vacationer comes here from France and gives birth while they are visiting legally is the child an American citizen?" ......Yes, I believe that they are automatically Americans .

"Birthright citizenship in the United States refers to a person's acquisition of United States citizenship by virtue of the circumstances of his or her birth. It contrasts with citizenship acquired in other ways, for example by naturalization later in life. Birthright citizenship may be conferred by jus soli or jus sanguinis. Under United States law, any person born within the United States (including the territories of Puerto Rico, Guam, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and the Northern Mariana Islands) and subject to its jurisdiction is automatically granted U.S. citizenship, as are many (though not all) children born to American citizens overseas."

Wei Wu Wei
05-12-2011, 01:10 AM
I lay most of the fault with the Mexican government but our industries are guilty of a share of the blame.
Have you ever wondered why human rights abuses justify police actions in the mid east but the one south of our border is ignored?

I certtainly have. however, human rights abuses are also ignored in the Middle east.

Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt (until we could not longer ignore them), not to mention dozens of places elsewhere in the world have terrible human rights records but we accept them because they are friendly to us (economically)

again, it usually goes back to economic resources and the "stability" of those nations (stability in regards to our own economic interests, regardless of the human rights records or level of democracy)

PoliCon
05-12-2011, 01:14 AM
The idea seems to be getting a lot of play time again, so figured I'd see what the general thoughts on it are.

12 million possible illegals in this country, rounding them up and deporting all of them is going to be a near impossible task, that would probably cost us much more then we could honestly afford. So generally, I am against the idea of just booting everyone out. I think it would be a futile effort.

So, my suggestion is we offer amnesty on conditions. 1. No criminal record while having been within the US (asides from that initial border crossing). 2. A fee is paid for breaking that one law. Maybe $500 or so. 3. Steps taken by legal immigrants who gain citizenship are taken. Take that test, fill out the paperwork, etc... 4. After a short period proof of employment. No welfare junkies.

Basically, the ones who want to become American's stay. The ones who want to contribute to OUR society. Those who don't get a one way ticket out of here.

So what else?

Round them up? Meh. Make their income dry up and most of them will pack themselves up and head back home. When companies know that hiring illegals is more expensive than hiring Americans - they will stop hiring the illegals who will then go home.

Rockntractor
05-12-2011, 01:15 AM
I certtainly have. however, human rights abuses are also ignored in the Middle east.

Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt (until we could not longer ignore them), not to mention dozens of places elsewhere in the world have terrible human rights records but we accept them because they are friendly to us (economically)

again, it usually goes back to economic resources and the "stability" of those nations (stability in regards to our own economic interests, regardless of the human rights records or level of democracy)

Mexico has lots of oil, lots of other resources, an unstable government and it borders us.
That seems like a national security issue far more worthy of concern than somewhere like Libya for instance.

PoliCon
05-12-2011, 01:16 AM
Mexico has lots of oil, lots of other resources, an unstable government and it borders us.
That seems like a national security issue far more worthy of concern than somewhere like Lybia for instance.

The left keeps trying to get more voters . . . we could just annex them.

Rockntractor
05-12-2011, 01:18 AM
The left keeps trying to get more voters . . . we could just annex them.
There are probably few that would agree with me, but I think we should.

Rockntractor
05-12-2011, 02:38 AM
You own Mega Product Ind. and employ thousands of people. In the middle of the night 500 people break into your company demanding work and take over your machines while some just head for the cafeteria to lounge ans others start stealing products. They all demand a job and claim you owe it to them because they broke in, besides they have families to feed.
You can send in police and guards to forcibly remove them knowing that the damages and injury they cause when they are removed will be very expensive by the time they are gone or you can put them on the payroll and tell all the applicants that filled out resumes and went through interviews that you all ready hired new employees.

Gingersnap
05-12-2011, 11:25 AM
Nova is correct: we did the amnesty thing and absolutely nothing changed. The people who complied with the amnesty terms got away with jumping the line over many thousands of much more law-abiding applicants and when the last amnesty-seeker had been processed, there were thousands of new illegal aliens crossing the border.

The only way to really get at the root of this problem is to undermine the welfare state (for both illegal aliens and citizens). When some of the largess dries up, the low-skill McJob starts to become more attractive. If we cracked down on employers with jail time for employing illegal aliens while simultaneously getting rid of the wage suppression caused by illegal labor, we will have a way to employ our own numerous low-skill citizens.

This is not 1880. We do not have millions of low-skill agricultural and industrial jobs on offer. Yes, we'll end up paying more for service-sector goods but that's life in the big city. At least you can choose whether or not you voluntarily buy those services. We'll make up the money on the back-end by reducing a chunk of the welfare payouts.

Novaheart
05-12-2011, 01:56 PM
their parents and also the children themselves are not allowed to renounce their US citizenship. if they are born in America, they are US citizens. the parents cannot change this and the children cannot change this until they become of age.

I didn't say that the kids had to renounce their citizenship, I said they could go with their parents.






The supreme court has already ruled on this. children born in the US are US citizens, they cannot have their citizenship revoked because of the crimes of their parents.

if we can punish people for the crimes of their ancestors then this opens up a whole new argument for Slave Reparations

I didn't say that anyone's citizenship should be revoked. I said that a court ruling and not the constitution had created the situation we have now.

djones520
05-12-2011, 07:02 PM
Wei, I was born in Greece. It made me a Greek citizen. When my parents left, no one cried about me going with them.

No one here should either. When they are adults, if they wish to take advantage of their American citizenship, then they are more then welcome to.

PoliCon
05-12-2011, 07:22 PM
Wei, I was born in Greece. It made me a Greek citizen. When my parents left, no one cried about me going with them.

No one here should either. When they are adults, if they wish to take advantage of their American citizenship, then they are more then welcome to.

You're greek? that explains SOOOOO Much! :D:p