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View Full Version : New Jersey School and ACLU Compromise on Graduation at Christian-Owned Site



FlaGator
05-26-2011, 04:31 PM
A prime example of cowardice in the face of a threat from the ACLU.



Instead of the sign, "Holiness to the Lord," a banner will be posted over it saying, "Neptune Township School District ... A Community of Learners." In addition, a banner with the words "So Be Ye Holy" will be covered with another banner saying, “Neptune High School: A School of Excellence and No Excuses."

The new banners are meant to appease the American Civil Liberties Union, which had demanded the school district remove all religious signs and symbols from the Methodist-owned auditorium in Ocean Grove, claiming it made non-Christians attending public school graduations feel uncomfortable.

Neptune Schools Superintendent David Mooij said he's glad there is a resolution everyone seems able to live with. "We're very pleased. We've worked from the beginning to collaborate on a solution," Mooij said.

"The town became stronger. It was a galvanizing moment for the town ... There's a lot of faith in this town. Faith that people expressed in prayer actually led to a true, amicable resolution," he said.

The conflict began after the grandmother of one of last year's graduates complained not only about the large white cross adorning the top of the buildings' facade, but of the religious signs inside, and what she felt was a heavily religious tone to the ceremony, which included student-led invocations and the singing of Christian hymns, most notably "Onward Christian Soldiers."

The school agreed to cut out the student-led invocations and the hymns. But the 6,500-seat Great Auditorium is run by the Camp Meeting Association. It is the iconic, center piece of the Methodist Church-based organization's property, which comprises the bulk of the land in Ocean Grove. The historical building had become the sight for both civic and community events. The association agreed to cover the cross on the inside, but not the cross on the outside or the antique lighted religious signs.

As a compromise, the ACLU, the school district and the Camp Meeting Association agreed that the religious signs inside would be covered with school banners, and that students, faculty and attendees will enter the building through the side doors to avoid entering under the cross.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/26/new-jersey-high-school-aclu-compromise-grnew-jersey-school-aclu-compromise/#ixzz1NULsk7Bq

noonwitch
05-26-2011, 05:46 PM
This is one of those things in which I think the ACLU is technically right, because we are talking about a public school graduation, but I wonder who the crank is that got them on the case. It seems like a big waste of money and time to go to court over this when we are talking about a single event in a child's education, not an establishment situation.

Phillygirl
05-26-2011, 05:58 PM
This is one of those things in which I think the ACLU is technically right, because we are talking about a public school graduation, but I wonder who the crank is that got them on the case. It seems like a big waste of money and time to go to court over this when we are talking about a single event in a child's education, not an establishment situation.

Technically right about what? Has there been a promotion of a particular religion because they found a site that was big enough to hold their students and their guests which happens to be religious?

FlaGator
05-26-2011, 06:06 PM
I believe that the Methodists should have said "We are not covering up the symbols of our faith. Perhaps you should find another venue for the graduation."

Novaheart
05-26-2011, 06:23 PM
Technically right about what? Has there been a promotion of a particular religion because they found a site that was big enough to hold their students and their guests which happens to be religious?

As you are well aware, Ocean Grove has been trying to have its cake and eat it too for some time now.

Yes, it was born as a seaside prayer camp and is the last, or one of the last of its kind to still have any serious vestige of its past. Bethany Beach Delaware is now no more religious than Fenwick Island, and Rehoboth has been a commercial resort longer than anyone can remember.

The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association is not a church, but it holds title to a great deal of property which is designated as Methodist in character. For years, they have rented out facilities to the general public and operated as a quasi business and government in a way that no other corporation, club, or municipality has been allowed to do since Utah became a state.

NJCardFan
05-26-2011, 06:57 PM
This is such bullshit. Why oh why would anyone feel uncomfortable with the signage? How does covering it up make the building any less Methodist? I've been in synagogues and didn't feel the least but uncomfortable. Not to mention that at my graduation a Rabbi gave the invocation. My God will people please grow a fucking set already.

pyackog
05-26-2011, 09:20 PM
I really don't understand these people who have to run crying from any hint of something religious. I am an atheist but I've got zero problem with other peoples' beliefs are going to any sort of place of worship...it just doesn't mean anything to me, good or bad.

These "fundy atheists" who get uncomfortable and so forth are just rabblerousers, nothing more.

Phillygirl
05-26-2011, 09:28 PM
As you are well aware, Ocean Grove has been trying to have its cake and eat it too for some time now.

Yes, it was born as a seaside prayer camp and is the last, or one of the last of its kind to still have any serious vestige of its past. Bethany Beach Delaware is now no more religious than Fenwick Island, and Rehoboth has been a commercial resort longer than anyone can remember.

The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association is not a church, but it holds title to a great deal of property which is designated as Methodist in character. For years, they have rented out facilities to the general public and operated as a quasi business and government in a way that no other corporation, club, or municipality has been allowed to do since Utah became a state.

No matter. The weirdo atheist parents should have dealt with a few holy symbols while watching Moonbeam graduate.

FlaGator
05-26-2011, 09:32 PM
No matter. The weirdo atheist parents should have dealt with a few holy symbols while watching Moonbeam graduate.

Preach it sister! :D

wilbur
05-27-2011, 02:10 AM
There were hymns during the ceremony?

A couple signs I don't see an issue with, assuming they were incidental and not put in place specifically *for* the ceremony - but hymns? Yea, I can see a problem there, if that is true.

No person should be subject to such torture.

Novaheart
05-27-2011, 02:33 AM
No matter. The weirdo atheist parents should have dealt with a few holy symbols while watching Moonbeam graduate.

Tattoo that on your forehead so we'll know where to find it when Dearborn High School decides to have their graduation at the Great Mosque Center

No one was forcing this high school to have a religious service or one in a building that was created for the purpose of indoctrinating youth.

MrsSmith
05-27-2011, 07:33 AM
Tattoo that on your forehead so we'll know where to find it when Dearborn High School decides to have their graduation at the Great Mosque Center

No one was forcing this high school to have a religious service or one in a building that was created for the purpose of indoctrinating youth.

:rolleyes::rolleyes: It's no wonder fundie atheists are so fearful. Everyone knows that any atheist youth reading a sign like "Holiness to the Lord," or "So Be Ye Holy" will instantly be forced into becoming a full-blown, frothing-at-the-mouth fundie and thereafter name all their children Ezekiel or Ruth and tithe 30% of their gross earnings to the local fundie church. It's the horrifying result of those indoctrination centers.

(On a side note, if a school did have a graduation in a mosque, want to bet that the ACLU will step in and order anything covered, or insist that no one can say "Allah" or take off their shoes or be exposed to the sight of prayer rugs?) :rolleyes:

FlaGator
05-27-2011, 11:19 AM
Tattoo that on your forehead so we'll know where to find it when Dearborn High School decides to have their graduation at the Great Mosque Center

No one was forcing this high school to have a religious service or one in a building that was created for the purpose of indoctrinating youth.

You know, I don't have a problem with a graduation ceremony in a Mosque.

FlaGator
05-27-2011, 11:22 AM
There were hymns during the ceremony?

A couple signs I don't see an issue with, assuming they were incidental and not put in place specifically *for* the ceremony - but hymns? Yea, I can see a problem there, if that is true.

No person should be subject to such torture.

That's a pretty subjective. Some hymns are beautiful, some I can do without.

Now if it is tradition to have hymns in this particular ceremony then I see no problems. If it was something added for purposes of indoctrination then there may be issues.

Arroyo_Doble
05-27-2011, 11:40 AM
No matter. The weirdo atheist parents should have dealt with a few holy symbols while watching Moonbeam graduate.

The world has changed a great deal since '72.

Phillygirl
05-27-2011, 12:22 PM
The world has changed a great deal since '72.

Yeah, but Skylar just doesn't have the same ring to it.

noonwitch
05-27-2011, 01:09 PM
Technically right about what? Has there been a promotion of a particular religion because they found a site that was big enough to hold their students and their guests which happens to be religious?



I don't agree with it, but I can see how nit-pickers could make a case. That's what lawyers do.


I just always wonder about the cranks who complain. I always envision someone like my mom complaining.

Arroyo_Doble
05-27-2011, 01:19 PM
Yeah, but Skylar just doesn't have the same ring to it.

More like Cheyenne.

Novaheart
05-27-2011, 01:36 PM
I don't agree with it, but I can see how nit-pickers could make a case. That's what lawyers do.


I just always wonder about the cranks who complain. I always envision someone like my mom complaining.

This is why you can't look at a snapshot and get the whole picture. Ocean Grove has had problems for decades. Like a lot of small towns, they want the money that comes with "outsiders" but they would prefer that people send a check and stay away.

They had to be taken to court to end their blue laws against certain Sunday activities (like driving).

They had to be taken to court to stop discriminating against people in the rental of the boardwalk pavilion.

Ocean Grove was incorporated as a borough by an Act of the New Jersey Legislature on April 5, 1920, from portions of Neptune Township, but the New Jersey Court of Errors and Appeals ruled the municipality unconstitutional on May 12, 1921, and the borough was dissolved as of June 16, 1921.[8]

Although Ocean Grove reverted back as part of Neptune Township with the court's decision of 1921, the Camp Meeting Association continued to exercise local ordinance enforcement powers until 1981, when a newspaper deliverer successfully sued to end the resort's blue law banning Sunday vehicular traffic and requiring it to disband its police force and "municipal" court.[9] The Camp Meeting still owns all the land in town and leases it to homeowners and businesses for 99-year renewable terms.[3] The Camp Meeting Association currently keeps its beach closed on Sunday mornings between 8:30 am and 12:30 pm and Ocean Grove is still "dry", that is, the sale of all alcoholic beverages is prohibited.

Until Ocean Grove's municipal authority was folded into Neptune Township in 1981, it boasted a set of unique laws, including one that made it illegal on Sundays to have cars on the streets of Ocean Grove. This had a significant effect on the development of a close-knit community. People looking to get away for the weekend typically avoided the Grove (the beach was closed on Sunday, too). That meant the visitors were likely to be coming for a week-long visit or more. Most came to attend programs sponsored by the Camp Meeting.

During the 1960s–1980s, the town declined along with much of the New Jersey seashore, and was pejoratively called "Ocean Grave" due to the general air of decrepitude, and the elderly population.[11] But beginning in the 1990s, and through 2006, Ocean Grove experienced a dramatic increase in property values and a considerable revival in fortune, particularly with the restoration of older hotel structures, many of which had deteriorated into single room occupancy ("SRO") quarters. Also – as part of this resurgence – a number of sidewalk cafés and shops along Main Avenue (the main business thoroughfare) now cater to visitors and seasonal residents.

Again, like a lot of small towns, they want their cake and eat it too. They want the outsiders money, as long as the insiders get to stay boss. It doesn't work that way.

Odysseus
05-27-2011, 02:22 PM
I believe that the Methodists should have said "We are not covering up the symbols of our faith. Perhaps you should find another venue for the graduation."
Exactly. Let the ACLU and the parents of the lone complainer explain to the rest of the student body why they are having their graduation ceremony in the WalMart parking lot, assuming that there are no crosses within their line of sight.

There were hymns during the ceremony?

A couple signs I don't see an issue with, assuming they were incidental and not put in place specifically *for* the ceremony - but hymns? Yea, I can see a problem there, if that is true.

No person should be subject to such torture.

Hymns are "torture"? Wow. You'd have been a source of constant entertainment in boot camp.

Zathras
05-27-2011, 03:24 PM
Hymns are "torture"? Wow. You'd have been a source of constant entertainment in boot camp.

Heh heh, so much smack down in such a small package. Well done sir.

Odysseus
05-27-2011, 03:36 PM
Heh heh, so much smack down in such a small package. Well done sir.

Thanks, but I had help. I don't think that Wilbur understands what a sad little fraction of normal manhood he presents to the world with statements like this.

wilbur
05-27-2011, 03:50 PM
Hymns are "torture"? Wow. You'd have been a source of constant entertainment in boot camp.

They sing church hymns in bootcamp?

Weird.

Arroyo_Doble
05-27-2011, 03:53 PM
They sing church hymns in bootcamp?

Weird.

They do in church.

Although you would probably be better off saying you were Jewish. They get more holidays.

wilbur
05-27-2011, 04:00 PM
Thanks, but I had help. I don't think that Wilbur understands what a sad little fraction of normal manhood he presents to the world with statements like this.

Normal manhood? You mean like hating gays, and internet tough-guy bravado?

* I'm so sorry! Its obviously not "hate" to recognize the honest truth about the perils of homosexuality (ie. that it will destroy the country if they marry, join the military, or are ever considered "normal"), duh! Just manliness.

;)

wilbur
05-27-2011, 04:11 PM
Heh heh, so much smack down in such a small package. Well done sir.

And what ankle-biter pet rescue did Odysseus adopt you from? I wanna get one too.

FlaGator
05-27-2011, 04:25 PM
They sing church hymns in bootcamp?

Weird.

I'm pretty certain that he saying that your posts are the source of a great about of humor in the military circles he runs in... but I suspect you already knew that.

wilbur
05-27-2011, 04:32 PM
I'm pretty certain that he saying that your posts are the source of a great about of humor in the military circles he runs in... but I suspect you already knew that.

I dunno, I took it him to be referencing military hymns, like the Marine Core Hymn.

Arroyo_Doble
05-27-2011, 04:38 PM
I dunno, I took it him to be referencing military hymns, like the Marine Core Hymn.

I took him to mean if you think hymns are torture, bootcamp would be brutal; not because they sing hymns but because listening to a hymn is much, much easier than a 10 mile ruck in New Jersey in August when the fucking heat just sucks the moisture out of your body and doesn't have the decency to take the smell with it and you bury up to your ankles in sand with every goddamn step; I swear to fucking God that New Jersey is largest exporter of beaches in the fucking United States .......

..... anyway.

pyackog
05-27-2011, 05:20 PM
I took him to mean if you think hymns are torture, bootcamp would be brutal; not because they sing hymns but because listening to a hymn is much, much easier than a 10 mile ruck in New Jersey in August when the fucking heat just sucks the moisture out of your body and doesn't have the decency to take the smell with it and you bury up to your ankles in sand with every goddamn step; I swear to fucking God that New Jersey is largest exporter of beaches in the fucking United States .......

..... anyway.

Jersey won't take the smell off you because the air is already saturated with the smell from the landfills.

Gingersnap
05-27-2011, 05:35 PM
You know, I don't have a problem with a graduation ceremony in a Mosque.

I don't either if it was the right sized/right priced venue.

They should put up banners saying, "The ACLU Made Us Cover Up Our Normal Stuff". :D

Odysseus
05-27-2011, 10:30 PM
They sing church hymns in bootcamp?

Weird.
>sigh< You cannot be this dense.

Normal manhood? You mean like hating gays, and internet tough-guy bravado?

* I'm so sorry! Its obviously not "hate" to recognize the honest truth about the perils of homosexuality (ie. that it will destroy the country if they marry, join the military, or are ever considered "normal"), duh! Just manliness.

;)
No, Wilbur, I meant it the way that Arroyo stated, that you'd be a catatonic ball of neuroses within five minutes of your first professional ass-chewing, and that you'd probably collapse in a fetal position if you ever actually met any of the people that you casually insult online. But, if living with your shriveled little excuse for masculinity demands that you convince yourself that I hate gays because I think that the destruction of our cultural norms will have horrible consequences beyond the immediate gratification of a tiny minority, well, we've all figured that you must have some way to maintain the fiction that you are the hero of your own life story, rather than the comic relief of somebody else's.

I took him to mean if you think hymns are torture, bootcamp would be brutal; not because they sing hymns but because listening to a hymn is much, much easier than a 10 mile ruck in New Jersey in August when the fucking heat just sucks the moisture out of your body and doesn't have the decency to take the smell with it and you bury up to your ankles in sand with every goddamn step; I swear to fucking God that New Jersey is largest exporter of beaches in the fucking United States .......

..... anyway.

Thank you for understanding my meaning. Yes, I meant that Wilbur would be a whining, crying little child when things got rough. BTW, FT Dix is no longer a basic training post. You've outlasted the Jersey misery. I did my 19D OSUT at FT Knox, and we were there over a very cold winter. The Kentucky clay would coat our boots and it took about an hour at the duty sink to get it off. It was vile.

djones520
05-27-2011, 10:40 PM
I did my 19D OSUT at FT Knox, and we were there over a very cold winter. The Kentucky clay would coat our boots and it took about an hour at the duty sink to get it off. It was vile.

I did Texas in spring. Freezing in the mornings, 90's and humid in the afternoons. We did a total of one ruck march the entire time I was there, so can't sympathize to much with that, but dealing with those extreme changes blowed something fierce.

MrsSmith
05-27-2011, 10:53 PM
I did Texas in spring. Freezing in the mornings, 90's and humid in the afternoons. We did a total of one ruck march the entire time I was there, so can't sympathize to much with that, but dealing with those extreme changes blowed something fierce.

Freezing to 90...that's extreme?? :confused: I just thought it was normal. We often have 20 - 30 degree changes in moments...

djones520
05-27-2011, 10:58 PM
Freezing to 90...that's extreme?? :confused: I just thought it was normal. We often have 20 - 30 degree changes in moments...

Yes, daily temp shifts like that are highly irregular. Further reasoning why Texas should be avoiding like a leper with the plague.

wilbur
05-27-2011, 11:37 PM
>sigh< You cannot be this dense.

No, Wilbur, I meant it the way that Arroyo stated, that you'd be a catatonic ball of neuroses within five minutes of your first professional ass-chewing,

Hey, at least one other person misunderstood - so perhaps you don't have the command of the English language that you think you do. Wouldn't be the worst of your delusions. :)


and that you'd probably collapse in a fetal position if you ever actually met any of the people that you casually insult online. But, if living with your shriveled little excuse for masculinity demands that you convince yourself that I hate gays because I think that the destruction of our cultural norms will have horrible consequences beyond the immediate gratification of a tiny minority, well, we've all figured that you must have some way to maintain the fiction that you are the hero of your own life story, rather than the comic relief of somebody else's.

Careful.. that scale of mama-drama is usually reserved for the more effeminate males among us (guess which way they swing).

Odysseus
05-28-2011, 12:16 AM
Hey, at least one other person misunderstood - so perhaps you don't have the command of the English language that you think you do. Wouldn't be the worst of your delusions. :)
One other person misunderstood? And who might that be?


Heh heh, so much smack down in such a small package. Well done sir.


I'm pretty certain that he saying that your posts are the source of a great about of humor in the military circles he runs in... but I suspect you already knew that.
Looks to me like everyone else got it. But, as I said before, you do what you have to do to convince yourself that you aren't a complete tool.

I did Texas in spring. Freezing in the mornings, 90's and humid in the afternoons. We did a total of one ruck march the entire time I was there, so can't sympathize to much with that, but dealing with those extreme changes blowed something fierce.


Careful.. that scale of mama-drama is usually reserved for the more effeminate males among us (guess which way they swing).
A guy who considers a few bars of Nearer My God to Thee torture really shouldn't be commenting on the relative mental and physical toughness of the males among us.

wilbur
05-28-2011, 01:07 AM
One other person misunderstood? And who might that be?

Looks to me like everyone else got it. But, as I said before, you do what you have to do to convince yourself that you aren't a complete tool.


LOL. Read the bits you quoted.... keep reading them.... if it still doesnt click, read them again. Keep reading.... keep reading.... we getting anywhere?



A guy who considers a few bars of Nearer My God to Thee torture really shouldn't be commenting on the relative mental and physical toughness of the males among us.

In order to facilitate your further understanding and comprehension of the english language, I'll point you to an impressive word to add to your vocabulary: "facetious". Look it up!

Zathras
05-28-2011, 02:45 AM
Careful.. that scale of mama-drama is usually reserved for the more effeminate males among us (guess which way they swing).

And you would know being the leader of that pack.

FlaGator
05-28-2011, 10:45 AM
What this whole thing boils down to is not separation of church and state but one group attempting to exert dominance over another for no other purpose than for one side to aggravate the other.

Novaheart
05-28-2011, 12:07 PM
What this whole thing boils down to is not separation of church and state but one group attempting to exert dominance over another for no other purpose than for one side to aggravate the other.

Actually, it's just some places being a little behind the times. The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association has been kicking and screaming as it is dragged into the 21st century.

My graduations were at Shady Grove Theater and Cole Field House. No prayers at either one.

Odysseus
05-28-2011, 12:39 PM
LOL. Read the bits you quoted.... keep reading them.... if it still doesnt click, read them again. Keep reading.... keep reading.... we getting anywhere?
Apparently not. Nor do I ever expect any progress with you. Apparently, Al Gore's information superhighway still has a few people riding the short bus, and you are the poster child for them.


In order to facilitate your further understanding and comprehension of the english language, I'll point you to an impressive word to add to your vocabulary: "facetious". Look it up!
Wilbur, we all know what facetious means, but from a humorless drone such as yourself, it's not really expected. Besides, you say so many other idiotic and outlandish things with utter sincerity, that it's hard to know when you are trying to be funny. Still, if you were attempting (not succeeding, mind you) humor, then I will only say that, while you'd still be a source of comic relief in boot camp (or any other area in which the minutest physical or mental demands are made upon you), in this one case, the connection was slightly tenuous. Happy now?

What this whole thing boils down to is not separation of church and state but one group attempting to exert dominance over another for no other purpose than for one side to aggravate the other.
Exactly. If the school board really wanted to separate the two, they would have looked for another venue.

Actually, it's just some places being a little behind the times. The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association has been kicking and screaming as it is dragged into the 21st century.

My graduations were at Shady Grove Theater and Cole Field House. No prayers at either one.

And look how you turned out... :D

One of the things that I find annoying about this is that one atheist who is offended by the sight of an innocuous expression of faith can inconvenience everybody else in the class (and it wasn't even a student, but a grandparent) with a frivolous lawsuit, which is not about their right not to believe, but about the rights of everyone else to believe. It's not enough to be an atheist, this person had to rub the noses of everyone else in the community in their atheism, at great cost to the town, the school and the church. No one was imposing their beliefs on this person, and no one expected them to pray, just to sit and enjoy the graduation of a grandchild who had earned a day of recognition. This self-absorption (it's the kids' day, gramps, not yours), intolerance and bigotry should not be a matter for the courts, but for therapists.

MrsSmith
05-28-2011, 01:34 PM
Apparently not. Nor do I ever expect any progress with you. Apparently, Al Gore's information superhighway still has a few people riding the short bus, and you are the poster child for them.


Wilbur, we all know what facetious means, but from a humorless drone such as yourself, it's not really expected. Besides, you say so many other idiotic and outlandish things with utter sincerity, that it's hard to know when you are trying to be funny. Still, if you were attempting (not succeeding, mind you) humor, then I will only say that, while you'd still be a source of comic relief in boot camp (or any other area in which the minutest physical or mental demands are made upon you), in this one case, the connection was slightly tenuous. Happy now?

Exactly. If the school board really wanted to separate the two, they would have looked for another venue.


And look how you turned out... :D

One of the things that I find annoying about this is that one atheist who is offended by the sight of an innocuous expression of faith can inconvenience everybody else in the class (and it wasn't even a student, but a grandparent) with a frivolous lawsuit, which is not about their right not to believe, but about the rights of everyone else to believe. It's not enough to be an atheist, this person had to rub the noses of everyone else in the community in their atheism, at great cost to the town, the school and the church. No one was imposing their beliefs on this person, and no one expected them to pray, just to sit and enjoy the graduation of a grandchild who had earned a day of recognition. This self-absorption (it's the kids' day, gramps, not yours), intolerance and bigotry should not be a matter for the courts, but for therapists.
Exactly. No one was imposing any beliefs upon anyone until the atheist decided it was her right to impose her beliefs upon everyone else, to use her supposed discomfort to shove her beliefs down the throats of every other person at that ceremony. It's the atheists that are so convinced of their own superiority that can't tolerate any sign of any other beliefs, but rather feel they must impose their "superior" wisdom upon the entire country.

Novaheart
05-28-2011, 01:51 PM
Exactly. No one was imposing any beliefs upon anyone until the atheist decided it was her right to impose her beliefs upon everyone else, ....
The atheist is not demanding that atheist iconography, philosophy, or mythology replace the religious iconography, philosophy, or mythology.

The absence of a picture of Jesus is not a picture of an atheist god. Zero is zero, it is not -1.

Zathras
05-28-2011, 02:06 PM
The atheist is not demanding that atheist iconography, philosophy, or mythology replace the religious iconography, philosophy, or mythology.

The absence of a picture of Jesus is not a picture of an atheist god. Zero is zero, it is not -1.

Have to disagree. By making the demand that no religeous material be there, the atheist IS forcing their belief system on everybody else. That belief system being there are no divine beings whatsoever.

Novaheart
05-28-2011, 02:25 PM
Have to disagree. By making the demand that no religeous material be there, the atheist IS forcing their belief system on everybody else. That belief system being there are no divine beings whatsoever.

Now I know how I sounded when I thought I should be able to smoke cigarettes anywhere I wanted.

Zathras
05-28-2011, 02:28 PM
Now I know how I sounded when I thought I should be able to smoke cigarettes anywhere I wanted.

You mean logical and smart as opposed to close minded and ignorant?

wilbur
05-28-2011, 02:50 PM
I love all the backwards thinking...

An atheist rightly feels uncomfortable being forced to sit through religious hymns in what is supposed to be a secular event (as I'm sure did any religious non-Christians) - so naturally its the Christians who are being put upon, persecuted, discriminated against, etc.

MrsSmith
05-28-2011, 03:31 PM
The atheist is not demanding that atheist iconography, philosophy, or mythology replace the religious iconography, philosophy, or mythology.

The absence of a picture of Jesus is not a picture of an atheist god. Zero is zero, it is not -1.

"Zero" is exactly what an atheist believes about God. The atheist is exactly demanding that her "zero" belief should take precedence, her "zero" iconography should be the only one in evidence. She is absolutely demanding that every person in the room observe her belief system, and only her belief system, when she is present.

MrsSmith
05-28-2011, 03:34 PM
I love all the backwards thinking...

An atheist rightly feels uncomfortable being forced to sit through religious hymns in what is supposed to be a secular event (as I'm sure did any religious non-Christians) - so naturally its the Christians who are being put upon, persecuted, discriminated against, etc.

And the remaining 99.99% of the audience can be uncomfortable at missing the traditional ceremony they expected because the feelings of one atheist must obviously be more important than the feelings and expectations of everyone else.

pyackog
05-28-2011, 03:52 PM
I love all the backwards thinking...

An atheist rightly feels uncomfortable being forced to sit through religious hymns in what is supposed to be a secular event (as I'm sure did any religious non-Christians) - so naturally its the Christians who are being put upon, persecuted, discriminated against, etc.

I am a atheist. I have also been involved with many different types of religious ceremonies as well as prayers, etc., at secular events. It has NEVER bothered me. NOTHING was "forced" on me. You either accept it or you don't...no one forces anything.

Anyone who says otherwise is either FAR too sensitive or is just a prick looking to cause problems for others IMO.

Zathras
05-28-2011, 03:58 PM
I love all the backwards thinking....

Of course you do since you're the biggest purveyor of backwards thinking I've seen in quite a while.


An atheist rightly feels uncomfortable being forced to sit through religious hymns in what is supposed to be a secular event (as I'm sure did any religious non-Christians) - so naturally its the Christians who are being put upon, persecuted, discriminated against, etc.

You know, if there's something I don't like because it goes against my belief system, I usually don't attend it. I do not force the organizers of said event to conform to my beliefs. In other words, shut the fuck up and deal with it. You don't like it? Well, that's tough shit.

FlaGator
05-28-2011, 03:58 PM
The atheist is not demanding that atheist iconography, philosophy, or mythology replace the religious iconography, philosophy, or mythology.

The absence of a picture of Jesus is not a picture of an atheist god. Zero is zero, it is not -1.

It's an argument about symbols. Symbols only have the power that one invests them with. If the religious symbols obviously have meaning to the atheist in question or there would be no issues. It would be like seeing a blank billboard. What is being said here is one of two things. It is either

"your symbols are repugnant to me so protect me from seeing them!"
or
"your symbols mean nothing to me but I want to deny you their comfort!"

BTW, an image of the atheist god would be a mirror.

Novaheart
05-28-2011, 04:59 PM
..............., an image of the atheist god would be a mirror.

Heavy.

CueSi
05-28-2011, 06:21 PM
Disliking hymns, that's a new one.

A funny connection between hymns and what Ody mentioned. . .Jody calls/cadences are actually a gift of the armed forces integration. There's always been a marching (left, right, hayfoot, strawfoot, etc) cadence, but the calls as seen in movies and such didn't really get going till WW2 and Korea. Black soldiers brought over the call-and-response format that they took from the hymns and spirituals they learned in church, and modified them as needed. I got that bit of oral history from the guy who does the bar-b-q at my moms church. Most awesome old school black veteran to walk the face of the earth that is not Col. Allen West, unless Allen West makes better ribs. :p

The religious hymn, as much as some dislike it, went hand in hand with the bar song, the sea shanty, early rythym and blues, and rock and roll. I'm gonna exaggerate here and say, if you dislike hymns, you dislike the mother tongue of much of American music. And this is why people on this board think you're an asshole. :p

~QC

Madisonian
05-28-2011, 07:49 PM
Disliking hymns, that's a new one.

A funny connection between hymns and what Ody mentioned. . .Jody calls/cadences are actually a gift of the armed forces integration. There's always been a marching (left, right, hayfoot, strawfoot, etc) cadence, but the calls as seen in movies and such didn't really get going till WW2 and Korea. Black soldiers brought over the call-and-response format that they took from the hymns and spirituals they learned in church, and modified them as needed. I got that bit of oral history from the guy who does the bar-b-q at my moms church. Most awesome old school black veteran to walk the face of the earth that is not Col. Allen West, unless Allen West makes better ribs. :p

The religious hymn, as much as some dislike it, went hand in hand with the bar song, the sea shanty, early rythym and blues, and rock and roll. I'm gonna exaggerate here and say, if you dislike hymns, you dislike the mother tongue of much of American music. And this is why people on this board think you're an asshole. :p

~QC

This says it well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re_WojyYALM

Odysseus
05-29-2011, 01:17 AM
The atheist is not demanding that atheist iconography, philosophy, or mythology replace the religious iconography, philosophy, or mythology.

The absence of a picture of Jesus is not a picture of an atheist god. Zero is zero, it is not -1.
But the removal of a picture of Jesus and its replacement with an empty space isn't simply a zero. If I remove a picture from a wall, the faded outline that remains reminds me of what I removed. It is not that the removal leaves a zero, it's that it leaves an indelible mark that perpetually invokes that which was taken.


I love all the backwards thinking...
When your head and your ass are inverted, everyone else's thinking looks backwards.


An atheist rightly feels uncomfortable being forced to sit through religious hymns in what is supposed to be a secular event (as I'm sure did any religious non-Christians) - so naturally its the Christians who are being put upon, persecuted, discriminated against, etc.
Why do those hymns make an atheist "rightly" uncomfortable? What is it about other people's faith that makes an atheist incapable of tolerating a few musical notes and words which are neither directed at him nor meant to disquiet him? FlaGator nails the mindset, and it's one that you're loath to acknowledge, but it is true, nonetheless.

It's an argument about symbols. Symbols only have the power that one invests them with. If the religious symbols obviously have meaning to the atheist in question or there would be no issues. It would be like seeing a blank billboard. What is being said here is one of two things. It is either

"your symbols are repugnant to me so protect me from seeing them!"
or
"your symbols mean nothing to me but I want to deny you their comfort!"
Brilliant!

BTW, an image of the atheist god would be a mirror.
No, that's the image of an atheist's hell. The image of an atheist's object of worship is, in fact, what Nova said it was, an empty space where faith used to be. It is nihilism.

Disliking hymns, that's a new one.

A funny connection between hymns and what Ody mentioned. . .Jody calls/cadences are actually a gift of the armed forces integration. There's always been a marching (left, right, hayfoot, strawfoot, etc) cadence, but the calls as seen in movies and such didn't really get going till WW2 and Korea. Black soldiers brought over the call-and-response format that they took from the hymns and spirituals they learned in church, and modified them as needed. I got that bit of oral history from the guy who does the bar-b-q at my moms church. Most awesome old school black veteran to walk the face of the earth that is not Col. Allen West, unless Allen West makes better ribs. :p

The religious hymn, as much as some dislike it, went hand in hand with the bar song, the sea shanty, early rythym and blues, and rock and roll. I'm gonna exaggerate here and say, if you dislike hymns, you dislike the mother tongue of much of American music. And this is why people on this board think you're an asshole. :p

~QC

This reminded me of a Charlie Sheen movie called Cadence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR2G1801PAo

MrsSmith
05-29-2011, 08:47 AM
No, that's the image of an atheist's hell. The image of an atheist's object of worship is, in fact, what Nova said it was, an empty space where faith used to be. It is nihilism.


Actually, I think FlaGator was right. Most atheists have assumed the place of God in their own lives. They believe they know more than God, have the right to judge Him and His actions, and their "anything I choose" moral code is better than the one He gave us. They worship their own intelligence and supposed freedom in place of God. Even those that idolize nature or some other portion of the created do so on their own authority, so still place themselves above God in their minds.

Phillygirl
05-29-2011, 10:56 AM
Disliking hymns, that's a new one.

A funny connection between hymns and what Ody mentioned. . .Jody calls/cadences are actually a gift of the armed forces integration. There's always been a marching (left, right, hayfoot, strawfoot, etc) cadence, but the calls as seen in movies and such didn't really get going till WW2 and Korea. Black soldiers brought over the call-and-response format that they took from the hymns and spirituals they learned in church, and modified them as needed. I got that bit of oral history from the guy who does the bar-b-q at my moms church. Most awesome old school black veteran to walk the face of the earth that is not Col. Allen West, unless Allen West makes better ribs. :p

The religious hymn, as much as some dislike it, went hand in hand with the bar song, the sea shanty, early rythym and blues, and rock and roll. I'm gonna exaggerate here and say, if you dislike hymns, you dislike the mother tongue of much of American music. And this is why people on this board think you're an asshole. :p

~QC

Yep. A friend of mine always talked about the guy who called cadence in his "group" (I have no idea what they call them in the Navy). "Sugar" was the black guy with the most rhythm and soul, so he always called cadence for them.

wilbur
05-29-2011, 11:40 AM
Actually, I think FlaGator was right. Most atheists have assumed the place of God in their own lives.

God, roughly defined, to me is something like 'the first cause', 'the prime mover', or something to that effect - an intelligent being who created the universe. So what you seem to be saying, is that I and other atheists believe we are 'first causes', or 'prime movers', or 'intelligent beings that created the universe'.

And of course, that's absurd on its face, as everyone can see.

Odysseus
05-29-2011, 01:10 PM
God, roughly defined, to me is something like 'the first cause', 'the prime mover', or something to that effect - an intelligent being who created the universe. So what you seem to be saying, is that I and other atheists believe we are 'first causes', or 'prime movers', or 'intelligent beings that created the universe'.

And of course, that's absurd on its face, as everyone can see.

Yeah, the intelligent part excludes you right off the bat.

But, in terms of moral guidance, atheists do replace God with themselves. You obliterate centuries-old standards of conduct that lifted us out of the stone age, and replace it with your whims, and when the new morality fails and society fragments, you blame the believers for clinging to outmoded ideas and not embracing your fads.

MrsSmith
05-29-2011, 03:35 PM
God, roughly defined, to me is something like 'the first cause', 'the prime mover', or something to that effect - an intelligent being who created the universe. So what you seem to be saying, is that I and other atheists believe we are 'first causes', or 'prime movers', or 'intelligent beings that created the universe'.

And of course, that's absurd on its face, as everyone can see.

As has been explained repeatedly, the fact that you define something in a specific manner does not change any reality. In fact, it is yet another perfect example of your constant attempts to act as your own god. Thank you for so neatly proving my point for me. :)
.
.
.
.

My complete quote, since Wil decided to ignore most of it...
"Most atheists have assumed the place of God in their own lives. They believe they know more than God, have the right to judge Him and His actions, and their "anything I choose" moral code is better than the one He gave us. They worship their own intelligence and supposed freedom in place of God. Even those that idolize nature or some other portion of the created do so on their own authority, so still place themselves above God in their minds."

wilbur
05-29-2011, 10:34 PM
As has been explained repeatedly, the fact that you define something in a specific manner does not change any reality. In fact, it is yet another perfect example of your constant attempts to act as your own god. Thank you for so neatly proving my point for me. :)

Generally, when somebody says "God", they mean some being with at least the features of "intelligence", AND "being responsible for the creation of the universe". And guess what? You have some special authority to define the word either. The word "God" has had nearly every conceivable definition that one can think of throughout history, and still has many currently. If your going to blather about how atheists "make themselves their own God", then at least have the courtesy to say what "God" means.

If you're talking about something else then the hypothesized being that allegedly created the universe, then I simply don't know what you mean, and invite you to clarify. Until then, your talking past me. If we can't agree to what the word means, then just describe what you mean, without the word. The word doesnt matter. That's what I did.

I don't know any atheists who believe they created the universe.