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Odysseus
05-29-2011, 06:37 PM
This is the first actual breakdown of the stages of Islamic imperialism. And make no mistake about it, it is imperialism.


May 29, 2011

By Richard Butrick

Forget the Five Pillars of Islam. It is the Five Stages of Islam that threaten the fundamental freedoms of Western Democracy. Freedoms which include freedom of thought, expression, and association and the crucial derived right of freedom of the press. We should never forget that "Islam" means submission -- the opposite of self-determination and Enlightenment values.

Six years ago Dr. Peter Hammond published a remarkable book which included a statistical study of the correlation between Muslim to non-Muslim population ratios and the transition from conciliatory Islam to fascist Islam. The stages are the same in 2011 but the demographics have changed to show an alarming progression. Many European nations and the U.S. are on the cusp of moving to a higher bracket. The demographics change but the story is the same. First comes the taqiyya and the kitman; then comes the Sword of Islam. Imam Rauf, the Ground Zero Mosque promoter, is the current master of taqiyya. He has gulled everyone from Bloomberg to Maureen Dowd of the NYT -- who fanaticizes over male Muslims. Expect doppelgangers of Khomeini for stage 5 and Islamic PEACE at last.


Stage 1. Establish a Beachhead


Population density à 2% (US, Australia, Canada).

Muslims are conciliatory, deferential but request harmless special treatment (foot bath facilities, removal/elimination of that which is offensive to delicate Muslim sensibilities - like walking dogs near Mosques).


Stage 2. Establish Outposts


Population density 2% - 5% (UK, Germany, Denmark).

At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. A recent example is that of Sheikh Abdullah el-Faisal who is back in Jamaica after being kicked out of the UK. Sound harmless? Read on:


The dispatch, dated February 2010, warns that that Jamaica could be fertile ground for jihadists because of its underground drug economy, marginalized youth, insufficient security and gang networks in U.S. and British prisons.


Stage 3. Establish Sectional Control of Major Cities.


Population density 5% - 10% (France, Sweden, Netherlands).

First comes the demand for halal food in supermarkets, and the blocking of streets for prayers; then comes the demand for self rule (within their ghettos) under Sharia. When Muslims approach 10% of the population the demands turn to lawlessness. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any criticism of Islam results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam. In France which may be over the 10% range, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrassas. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death.


Stage 4. Establish Regional Control.


Population density 20% - 50% (Europe 2020?).

After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues.


Stage 5. Total Control, Brutal Suppression, and Dhimmitude.

Population density > 50%.


Unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and jizya, the tax placed on infidels. As Muslim population levels increase and all infidels cower in submission there will peace at last. Dar al-Islam is achieved and everyone lives under Sharia and the Koran is the only word.

Our current Western world leaders are suckered by taqiyya and kitman and steering us into stage 3. Allen West seems to get it but I can't see that any of the crop of current GOP contenders really get it. Fear of bigotry at stage 2 is the Islamists' greatest weapon. Crucified on the cross of bigotry -- is that the future of the Western democracies? Bigotry is only bigotry if it is out of touch with reality and it is the suckers who believe the stage 1-2 peace pitch of Islam who are the ones who are out of touch with reality -- not to mention our mesmerized President. The first GOP candidate who announces to Imam Rauf and his supporters, "Fine. A Mosque at ground zero. But how about a cathedral in Mecca first? It is part of our Christian outreach program of bridge building." will be the first to get it and a big boost in the polls.

Page Printed from: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/05/the_five_stages_of_islam.html at May 29, 2011 - 04:27:55 PM CDT

djones520
05-29-2011, 06:39 PM
Now what about all the Muslims out there who don't give a shit about this stuff?

Countries like Turkey, Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, and a host of other secular Islamic nations that are quickly becoming more western then middle eastern?

People seem quick to pick up the broad paint brush, but when they do that they automatically paint all the millions of moderates out there who want to be our friends.

And please don't do the whole "Well then their not true Muslims", because I'll just drag out the chart that someone posted about whose gonna get Raptured and who isn't.

Rockntractor
05-29-2011, 06:44 PM
Now what about all the Muslims out there who don't give a shit about this stuff?

Countries like Turkey, Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, and a host of other secular Islamic nations that are quickly becoming more western then middle eastern?

People seem quick to pick up the broad paint brush, but when they do that they automatically paint all the millions of moderates out there who want to be our friends.

And please don't do the whole "Well then their not true Muslims", because I'll just drag out the chart that someone posted about whose gonna get Raptured and who isn't.

Turkey is going back in time, do you not remember the flotilla last year. They will soon be Islamic rule.

Molon Labe
05-29-2011, 07:06 PM
Now what about all the Muslims out there who don't give a shit about this stuff?



+1

Some people are overly scared of this stuff.

Articulate_Ape
05-29-2011, 07:38 PM
+1

Some people are overly scared of this stuff.

And some underestimate it because they don't understand it.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/09/09/article-1053798-0283213600000578-277_468x374.jpg

Odysseus
05-29-2011, 09:29 PM
Now what about all the Muslims out there who don't give a shit about this stuff?

Countries like Turkey, Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, and a host of other secular Islamic nations that are quickly becoming more western then middle eastern?

People seem quick to pick up the broad paint brush, but when they do that they automatically paint all the millions of moderates out there who want to be our friends.

And please don't do the whole "Well then their not true Muslims", because I'll just drag out the chart that someone posted about whose gonna get Raptured and who isn't.
The Muslims who don't care about such things are eventually subjugated by those who do. They see the radicals getting their way and are cowed, not because they want to go along with it, but because they know that the only people who can help them, the western people of their new homeland, do not grasp the threat, and are therefore unwilling to assist them in what they see as an internal squabble between Muslims. As for your comments about the so-called secular Muslims states, there are very few of those, and their number diminishes every year. The former Soviet republics started out with secular constitutions, but many of those have since turned to Sharia and sectarian conflict. In the case of Azerbaijan, the Nagorno-Karabakh War with Armenia was a jihad, with the Afghan mujahideen and Chechens led by Shamil Basayev, a radical Islamist and terrorist (he is the leader of the group that perpetrated the Beslan massacre), supporting the Azeris against the Christian Armenians. You also mentioned Kyrgyzstan, which has been wracked by internal fighting since 2010, but since both parties are Muslims (Kyrgyz vs. Uzbek), it has stayed pretty much under the radar. It also helps that Kyrgyzstan is surrounded by Muslim states on three sides, and on the forth, by the Muslim enclave of China (Uighur). However, one of the platforms of the opposition party is the expulsion of the US presence at the airbase in Manas, which is the major staging area for Afghanistan. Their secular state is about as stable as Lindsay Lohan's sobriety. Turkey's secularization was achieved through a draconian program that literally involved driving nails through the heads of men caught wearing the fez and burning women alive who refused to doff their veils, and even then, it proved temporary, as the army had to repeatedly step in to ensure that Atatürk's reforms were kept. Today, the lead party is the Islamist party, which has been undermining secular law, with overwhelming approval of the electorate. Turkish media routinely demonizes America, Europe and Israel and their foreign policy has been pro-jihad ever since they opted out of allowing the US to stage forces for the Iraq invasion. Recently, Turkey has hosted Iranian president and barking moonbat in chief Ahmedinejad, who used the occasion to reiterate his hatred of all things western, Christian, Jewish or otherwise non-Muslim, to great popular acclaim.

Got any other "secular" Muslim states that you'd care to cite?

wilbur
05-29-2011, 09:49 PM
Its clear that Ody is searching for a final solution to the Islam problem.

Well, I have one.

Convince people that its idiotic to believe that God, whether he exists or not, writes write books, sends prophets, or gives a shit about churches or mosques. From burkas to baklava, its all bullshit.... problem solved.

Rockntractor
05-29-2011, 09:53 PM
Its clear that Ody is searching for a final solution to the Islam problem.

Well, I have one.

Convince people that its idiotic to believe that God, whether he exists or not, doesnt write books, doesnt send prophets, and doesnt give a shit about church or mosques. From burkas to baklava, its all bullshit.... problem solved.

The one stage of Wilbur.

Molon Labe
05-29-2011, 09:57 PM
And some underestimate it because they don't understand it.


me thinks this country and traditional western liberalism face a far greater threat from within then we will ever face from a bunch of brown sand dwellers. Please tell me you are not comparing this to 20th century Nazi Germany.

Novaheart
05-29-2011, 10:46 PM
Countries like Turkey, Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, and a host of other secular Islamic nations that are quickly becoming more western then middle eastern?
.

I've never been to an Islamic country, but every time someone follows "secular" with "Islamic nation" , I Google that country name to see if Christians, Jews, Gay people, and women are treated badly with government approval or indifference. I have never found an Islamic country in which Islam was not a tool of oppression.

Articulate_Ape
05-29-2011, 11:05 PM
me thinks this country and traditional western liberalism face a far greater threat from within then we will ever face from a bunch of brown sand dwellers. Please tell me you are not comparing this to 20th century Nazi Germany.

The two are not mutually exclusive, Molon. Neville believed that the threat of the Third Reich was overblown or, at the very least, could be contained by diplomacy. Where you are correct is that all empires collapse from within. Where you are wrong is thinking that is by internal incident or accident alone.

You must understand that the very basis of Islam, like Christianity, is the notion that the world will be dominated by said religion. Christianity passed through the learning phase and only hopes and prays for their global outcome. Islam is just starting that learning curve, and right on schedule. If you think for a moment that "moderate" Muslims will stand in front of this Islamic tank, you are asleep at the wheel.

Do you really believe that if the tide shifts and Islam gains prominence in this world that the "moderate Muslims" will stand against what the Qur'an commands? Do you?

djones520
05-29-2011, 11:11 PM
I've never been to an Islamic country, but every time someone follows "secular" with "Islamic nation" , I Google that country name to see if Christians, Jews, Gay people, and women are treated badly with government approval or indifference. I have never found an Islamic country in which Islam was not a tool of oppression.

Well, I've spent nearly a year of my life living in one of those countries I mentioned. And I can tell you that it's just as secular as we are.

Articulate_Ape
05-29-2011, 11:19 PM
Well, I've spent nearly a year of my life living in one of those countries I mentioned. And I can tell you that it's just as secular as we are.

With all due respect, how far off base were you?

djones520
05-29-2011, 11:25 PM
With all due respect, how far off base were you?

On my last deployment there I visited the Capital a number of times. Walked through their university section (which has the University of America as one of the schools there). Visited museums, shopping centers, restaurants, all that sort of stuff. One of the biggest things that jump out at me was when a group of women dressed like anyone you'd see here in America came up to us, and told us they loved America.

Also took some trips several hours away from the base, visiting the more rural parts.

And... you'd never know it was a nation with a 90% Islamic population.

Now, what experience do you have with them?

Rockntractor
05-29-2011, 11:32 PM
What country Mr. Jones?

Odysseus
05-29-2011, 11:34 PM
Its clear that Ody is searching for a final solution to the Islam problem.
Oh, clever. Final solution. I get it. Since I see the expansion of Islamist ideology as a threat, I must be just like a Nazi. Clever, clever clever. :rolleyes: Except for the fact that the modern-day Nazis are the ones who are systematically driving unbelievers out of the enclaves that they have formed in formerly non-Muslim areas, enforcing Sharia, which, which makes the Nazis' Nuremberg Laws look like the Magna Carta, destroying all vestiges of cultures that predate Islam and otherwise imposing a totalitarian death cult on the rest of the world. Other than that, it's a great joke. Oh, and the whole comparing a Jew to Nazis? Real clever, there, Wilbur. Must make you feel like a really morally superior guy to throw that into the mix. And you wonder why everyone here holds you in contempt... :rolleyes:

Well, I have one.

Convince people that its idiotic to believe that God, whether he exists or not, writes write books, sends prophets, or gives a shit about churches or mosques. From burkas to baklava, its all bullshit.... problem solved.
Why didn't we think of that? That's so simple! I can get behind that. We'll just drop you in the middle of downtown Tehran and you can preach atheism to the Pasdaran. Or maybe we can give you a ticket to Riyadh and you can engage the Mutawan in the relative merits of non-belief. Or, we can just drop you into the tribal enclaves of Pakistan and you can hang out with the Taliban types there, and give them an earful on the beautiful ideals of secular humanism, and then, when they throw an orange jumpsuit on you and begin chanting "Allahu akbar" and honing their knives, you might take a moment to reflect on just how barbarous and depraved our enemies are as they begin sawing off your empty head.


me thinks this country and traditional western liberalism face a far greater threat from within then we will ever face from a bunch of brown sand dwellers. Please tell me you are not comparing this to 20th century Nazi Germany.

Nah. The Nazis were pikers compared to these guys. Think about it. How many truly global totalitarian cults have there been? Nazism lasted from 1933 to 1945, which means that the Thousand Year Reich fell about nine-hundred and eighty-seven years short, but Muslims have been going off on Jihad since the seventh century, and haven't won a stand up fight since about the fifteenth, but they're still in there plugging away. Communism lasted 70 years in the USSR, and in the end, the Russians couldn't wait to cash in and go for the big bucks. The only countries that call themselves communist now are the pathetic little remnants of the Evil Empire. North Korea and Cuba are like those old Japanese troopies that they used to find every once in a while after the end of WWII, still fighting a war that they'd lost long ago. Nobody takes it seriously anymore except a few holdouts on our campuses (Wei, for example), but everyone else knows that it's on the ash heap of history. But, when the commies were on top of the world, and Khrushchev was banging his shoe and promising to bury us, the most thought that anyone gave to Islam was an occasional top-40 hit (Ahab the Ay-rab, Midnight at the Oasis or even Rock the Casbah), but nobody seriously thought that the caliphate, which Mustafa Kemal eliminated in 1926, would come back anytime soon, much less as a threat to the powers of Europe and America. Say what you will about the most backwards legal and moral code in the world, but it's got serious staying power.

djones520
05-29-2011, 11:34 PM
What country Mr. Jones?

Kyrgyzstan.

If you want to know just how secular it is, the countries President is a woman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roza_Otunbayeva

Articulate_Ape
05-29-2011, 11:37 PM
On my last deployment there I visited the Capital a number of times. Walked through their university section (which has the University of America as one of the schools there). Visited museums, shopping centers, restaurants, all that sort of stuff. One of the biggest things that jump out at me was when a group of women dressed like anyone you'd see here in America came up to us, and told us they loved America.

Also took some trips several hours away from the base, visiting the more rural parts.

And... you'd never know it was a nation with a 90% Islamic population.

Now, what experience do you have with them?

Touché. I have far less empirical experience and base my view on history, the Qur'an, and statistics. I truly hope that you are right and that I am wrong. Nothing would please me more. Sadly, I fear that history and destiny trump optimism almost every time. Nevertheless, I hope I am wrong.

Odysseus
05-29-2011, 11:44 PM
Kyrgyzstan.

If you want to know just how secular it is, the countries President is a woman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roza_Otunbayeva

Pakistan used to have a female president. And Lebanon used to be the most stable, modern state in the Middle East (except for Israel). Just because Kyrgyzstan hasn't hopped on the jihad train yet doesn't mean that it won't. The last round of internal conflicts concluded with a less pro-US regime, and subsequent rounds of conflict will focus on our presence there.

djones520
05-29-2011, 11:44 PM
Touché. I have far less empirical experience and base my view on history, the Qur'an, and statistics. I truly hope that you are right and that I am wrong. Nothing would please me more. Sadly, I fear that history and destiny trump optimism almost every time. Nevertheless, I hope I am wrong.

I think a lot of people just end up seeing the bad, and that's all they ever see. There are moderates out there. Lots of them. I've spoken to them, even engaged them about their religion. They aren't all kill happy rage machines.

There is a threat out there, yes. We need to fight it, and I'm fully in that fight. But broad brush tactics is going to alienate those who could be our friends in the fight. And that I am against.

Rockntractor
05-29-2011, 11:55 PM
Pakistan used to have a female president. And Lebanon used to be the most stable, modern state in the Middle East (except for Israel). Just because Kyrgyzstan hasn't hopped on the jihad train yet doesn't mean that it won't. The last round of internal conflicts concluded with a less pro-US regime, and subsequent rounds of conflict will focus on our presence there.

They better enjoy their peace while they can, it would appear on the surface they are anything but stable.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/world/asia/08bishkek.html

Articulate_Ape
05-30-2011, 12:28 AM
I think a lot of people just end up seeing the bad, and that's all they ever see. There are moderates out there. Lots of them. I've spoken to them, even engaged them about their religion. They aren't all kill happy rage machines.

There is a threat out there, yes. We need to fight it, and I'm fully in that fight. But broad brush tactics is going to alienate those who could be our friends in the fight. And that I am against.

Gotcha, dude. It's probably only 2 percent of Muslims that seek a new caliphate, and only maybe 1 or 2 percent that will kill to anyone to make it happed. Likewise, it's only 2 percent that would materially assist such a cause. And if another 3 percent are ambivalent, torn between faith and faith defying freedom? What's 5% of 1.2 billion? You do the math.

Like I said, I really hope you are right.

fettpett
05-30-2011, 01:49 AM
They better enjoy their peace while they can, it would appear on the surface they are anything but stable.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/world/asia/08bishkek.html

thats a year old. though it looks like another example of the Obassiah's stellar Foreign policy work

Novaheart
05-30-2011, 11:10 AM
Kyrgyzstan.

If you want to know just how secular it is, the countries President is a woman.



Not to question your expertise but merely your point here, the president of Pakistan was once a woman, and they touted that as evidence that Pakistan was as modern and sophisticated.

Rcd
05-30-2011, 11:23 AM
Not to question your expertise but merely your point here, the president of Pakistan was once a woman, and they touted that as evidence that Pakistan was as modern and sophisticated.

True, yet the CIA (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/17/AR2008011703252.html) concluded that Al Qaeda was responsible for the assasination of Bhutto, Al Qaeda does not tolerate the eleveation of women or even the education of girls. So there is that faction in Pakistan which seeks to prevent that modernization.

BadCat
05-30-2011, 12:46 PM
Here is something "modern" the muzzie countries should see....

http://pixdaus.com/pics/TD5znmCj8xFi.jpg

Novaheart
05-30-2011, 12:52 PM
Here is something "modern" the muzzie countries should see....

http://pixdaus.com/pics/TD5znmCj8xFi.jpg

????

BadCat
05-30-2011, 01:02 PM
????

Trident D5 ICBM multiple independently targetable reentry vehicles...10 Megatons of hydrogen goodness per trail.

Rcd
05-30-2011, 01:22 PM
Trident D5 ICBM multiple independently targetable reentry vehicles...10 Megatons of hydrogen goodness per trail.

Sweet!

Novaheart
05-30-2011, 01:49 PM
Trident D5 ICBM multiple independently targetable reentry vehicles...10 Megatons of hydrogen goodness per trail.

Do we have phasars yet? I can't wait to see Abdullah's face when our hovering saucer hangs effortlessly over Tehran and zaps the Holy this or the Holy that.

fettpett
05-30-2011, 02:26 PM
Do we have phasars yet? I can't wait to see Abdullah's face when our hovering saucer hangs effortlessly over Tehran and zaps the Holy this or the Holy that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YAL-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfmEUqmgsK4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2eehBk_DNQ&feature=player_detailpage

Lanie
05-30-2011, 03:21 PM
The Muslims who don't care about such things are eventually subjugated by those who do. They see the radicals getting their way and are cowed, not because they want to go along with it, but because they know that the only people who can help them, the western people of their new homeland, do not grasp the threat, and are therefore unwilling to assist them in what they see as an internal squabble between Muslims. As for your comments about the so-called secular Muslims states, there are very few of those, and their number diminishes every year. The former Soviet republics started out with secular constitutions, but many of those have since turned to Sharia and sectarian conflict. In the case of Azerbaijan, the Nagorno-Karabakh War with Armenia was a jihad, with the Afghan mujahideen and Chechens led by Shamil Basayev, a radical Islamist and terrorist (he is the leader of the group that perpetrated the Beslan massacre), supporting the Azeris against the Christian Armenians. You also mentioned Kyrgyzstan, which has been wracked by internal fighting since 2010, but since both parties are Muslims (Kyrgyz vs. Uzbek), it has stayed pretty much under the radar. It also helps that Kyrgyzstan is surrounded by Muslim states on three sides, and on the forth, by the Muslim enclave of China (Uighur). However, one of the platforms of the opposition party is the expulsion of the US presence at the airbase in Manas, which is the major staging area for Afghanistan. Their secular state is about as stable as Lindsay Lohan's sobriety. Turkey's secularization was achieved through a draconian program that literally involved driving nails through the heads of men caught wearing the fez and burning women alive who refused to doff their veils, and even then, it proved temporary, as the army had to repeatedly step in to ensure that Atatürk's reforms were kept. Today, the lead party is the Islamist party, which has been undermining secular law, with overwhelming approval of the electorate. Turkish media routinely demonizes America, Europe and Israel and their foreign policy has been pro-jihad ever since they opted out of allowing the US to stage forces for the Iraq invasion. Recently, Turkey has hosted Iranian president and barking moonbat in chief Ahmedinejad, who used the occasion to reiterate his hatred of all things western, Christian, Jewish or otherwise non-Muslim, to great popular acclaim.

Got any other "secular" Muslim states that you'd care to cite?

What you're citing is a problem, a power struggle between fanatics and the not so fanatical. The ones who aren't fanatics are scared, often because they do not have the same weapons and so forth. I think instead of demonizing the entire religion, we should see the non-fanatical Muslims as our allies to help. I think George W. Bush thought the same thing since we went into both Afghanistan and Iraq. I think a lot of our military might be thinking similar stuff since so many of them want to stay in those countries to fight the terrorists who are terrorizing local citizens.

Lanie
05-30-2011, 03:22 PM
Its clear that Ody is searching for a final solution to the Islam problem.

Well, I have one.

Convince people that its idiotic to believe that God, whether he exists or not, writes write books, sends prophets, or gives a shit about churches or mosques. From burkas to baklava, its all bullshit.... problem solved.

I think we should convert them all to Christianity (but no bombing first, bad Coulter).

Lanie
05-30-2011, 03:24 PM
I've never been to an Islamic country, but every time someone follows "secular" with "Islamic nation" , I Google that country name to see if Christians, Jews, Gay people, and women are treated badly with government approval or indifference. I have never found an Islamic country in which Islam was not a tool of oppression.

The ones that are more secular do tolerate people of other religions. Their citizens may not tolerate them, but that's not completely the government's fault. I read about Eygpt and the attacks against Christians. Their government has tried to do something about the radicals. Hopefully, they'll succeed. Oppression against women and gays by the government are still a horrible problem.

wilbur
05-30-2011, 05:27 PM
I think we should convert them all to Christianity (but no bombing first, bad Coulter).

You can't justify the existence of Yahweh without justifying the existence of Allah

Odysseus
05-30-2011, 07:00 PM
What you're citing is a problem, a power struggle between fanatics and the not so fanatical. The ones who aren't fanatics are scared, often because they do not have the same weapons and so forth. I think instead of demonizing the entire religion, we should see the non-fanatical Muslims as our allies to help. I think George W. Bush thought the same thing since we went into both Afghanistan and Iraq. I think a lot of our military might be thinking similar stuff since so many of them want to stay in those countries to fight the terrorists who are terrorizing local citizens.
It is a problem. In fact, it is the problem. But if we don't actively side with the reformers, and that means knowing who they are and what they are trying to reform, and punishing the jihadis with everything at our disposal whenever they act against them or us, the reformers are doomed before they start. But what you have to understand is that the doctrine of the religion is also the problem. If we interpreted Judaism or Christianity the way that they were interpreted in their most violent periods (which would still be less violent than Islam's least violent era), western civilization would have stagnated the way that Muslim civilization has. The problem is that Islam isn't just a religion, but a political ideology that commands that every faithful Muslim do everything in his power to expand it, regardless of the effects on non-believers. In fact, it explicitly commands that non-believers be terrorized, slaughtered and enslaved until they submit, and then humiliated and debased until they convert. Neither Judaism nor Christianity made similar demands of their adherents.

The ones that are more secular do tolerate people of other religions. Their citizens may not tolerate them, but that's not completely the government's fault. I read about Eygpt and the attacks against Christians. Their government has tried to do something about the radicals. Hopefully, they'll succeed. Oppression against women and gays by the government are still a horrible problem.
Here's another issue with Islam. In most Arab states, the more educated a person is, the more likely they are to be radicalized. This is because the jihadis recognized that students, away from home and vulnerable, are an ideal target for Islamic radicalism. This is especially true in countries with a high degree of corruption, where having an advanced degree doesn't get you a job unless you have the tribal connections. Thus, you get college-educated jihadis flying planes into buildings on 9/11, affluent sons of prominent government ministers trying to detonate their underwear and medical doctors trying to blow up Glasgow airport. Among the senior leadership of al Qaeda, Bin Laden was the heir to a multi-billion dollar construction empire, Ayman al Zawahiri is an MD and the current head is a former Egyptian officer of their elite special operations unit.

You can't justify the existence of Yahweh without justifying the existence of Allah

Wilbur, if you don't have anything intelligent to contribute to the discussion, and you clearly don't, why don't you go off and start a thread about how wonderful it is to be you, so that the rest of us can bask in the awesomeness that you obviously believe that you possess. We'll come by when we get bored (although I'd have to be pretty bored) and check it out. :rolleyes:

Molon Labe
06-03-2011, 02:02 PM
The two are not mutually exclusive, Molon. Neville believed that the threat of the Third Reich was overblown or, at the very least, could be contained by diplomacy. Where you are correct is that all empires collapse from within. Where you are wrong is thinking that is by internal incident or accident alone.

You must understand that the very basis of Islam, like Christianity, is the notion that the world will be dominated by said religion. Christianity passed through the learning phase and only hopes and prays for their global outcome. Islam is just starting that learning curve, and right on schedule. If you think for a moment that "moderate" Muslims will stand in front of this Islamic tank, you are asleep at the wheel.

Do you really believe that if the tide shifts and Islam gains prominence in this world that the "moderate Muslims" will stand against what the Qur'an commands? Do you?

What i'm saying..(and have said many times before), is that there is no reason to believe the greatest military on earth ( the US) can't handle a group of peoples with no Navy, no Airforce and no ICBMS. We handled the Nazis and the Soviets for 50 years...far greater adversaries.....with less than what we have ability wise todya.

I have several Islamic friends who don't believe anything of the like being talked about on here. No Islamic Fascist tendancies....just people who want to pray and serve God and would never think of raising a hand against me because I'm Christian or believe in Western Liberalism. No one's talking about being Chamberlinesque and ignoring Islam. I'm saying the threat isn't on the scale of any 20th century form of fascism..period.

In my estimation the number of Muslims radicalized grow more and more not because they believe some religious principle, but because the percieve some threat (real or unreal). Religion can be like all "collectivism" a threat to liberty....but there's no reason to believe that the Muslim form is any worse than the types that run rampant in THIS country and are a clear and present danger because people ignore them. I'm talking about our current leaders in this country and the group think "true believers" who run things. Call me idealistic or unwise....I don't think so though.

Odysseus
06-03-2011, 04:19 PM
What i'm saying..(and have said many times before), is that there is no reason to believe the greatest military on earth ( the US) can't handle a group of peoples with no Navy, no Airforce and no ICBMS. We handled the Nazis and the Soviets for 50 years...far greater adversaries.....with less than what we have ability wise todya.
But you're failing to see that they are not engaging us just on the battlefield, and even there, they have more advantages than you realize. Asymmetric warfare is about hitting a stronger opponent at his weakest point. Our weakest points are not military, but informational, political, social and economic. By presenting Islam solely as a religious ideal, and downplaying or denying the political, Islamists create a Trojan Horse for entry into western nations. Once established, the mosque becomes the political center of a Muslim community that forms around it. Former Mossad chief Shabtai Shavit recently spoke about how the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt used mosques as the headquarters of its party branches:

“The Muslim Brotherhood could not be crushed by past regimes because of its dual identity as a religious and a political movement. Every mosque is a party branch headquarters. Every cleric at the mosque is the party branch chairman. A contribution to the mosque is a contribution to the party,”
What you have is a political movement with the protections of a religion, and the fanaticism to boot. When our military meets this, we win on the battlefield, but lose everywhere else. For example, Fallujah was a tactical nightmare for the jihadis. They lost over 2,000 fighters in a few days, more than the US had lost in Iraq up to that time, were driven from the city, and lost all sorts of strategic and tactical information that we exploited. However, like Tet in 1968, our media turned it into a propaganda victory. Jihadi atrocities were ignored or minimized, while Coalition failures were magnified, exaggerated and even fabricated from whole cloth. Code Pink brought money and supplies to the enemy, in full view of TV cameras, and got away with it under a Republican administration. Foreign governments attacked us for our alleged brutality, while ignoring the monstrous acts that the jihadis perpetrated (US troops found genuine torture chambers and manuals on how to inflict Medievel pain, which went largely unreported). Socially, the jihad exploits the open nature of western societies while remaining closed to their influences. Jihadis set up enclaves in cities throughout the west, establish political organizations through the mosques, and then begin to impose their will outside of their communities.

I have several Islamic friends who don't believe anything of the like being talked about on here. No Islamic Fascist tendancies....just people who want to pray and serve God and would never think of raising a hand against me because I'm Christian or believe in Western Liberalism.

Ask them if they favor the adoption of Sharia in the US. Ask if they attend a mosque, and if you can go with them to hear the sermon. Dig a bit more and see what you find. Lanie did.

No one's talking about being Chamberlinesque and ignoring Islam. I'm saying the threat isn't on the scale of any 20th century form of fascism..period.
No, it's greater. Nazism had, at most, a few million adherents. Germany was an advanced industrial state, but poor in resources compared to the US and USSR, not to mention the British Empire. The political Islamists, OTOH, have literally a billion and a half people to draw from, and if only one in ten is sympathetic to a global caliphate (and it's more like the other way around), then that is a base that dwarfs the base that Hitler could draw from, and Goebbels' propaganda was nothing compared to the stuff put out today.


In my estimation the number of Muslims radicalized grow more and more not because they believe some religious principle, but because the percieve some threat (real or unreal). Religion can be like all "collectivism" a threat to liberty....but there's no reason to believe that the Muslim form is any worse than the types that run rampant in THIS country and are a clear and present danger because people ignore them. I'm talking about our current leaders in this country and the group think "true believers" who run things. Call me idealistic or unwise....I don't think so though.

You really don't know what we're facing. Read this: http://www.worldsecuritynetwork.com/documents/Shariah_The_Threat_to_America_(Team_B_II_Report)_9-14-10.pdf. After that, if you want to talk, PM me, but don't ignore the threat. It's real, it's serious, and it's coming.

Molon Labe
06-04-2011, 04:43 PM
You really don't know what we're facing. Read this: http://www.worldsecuritynetwork.com/documents/Shariah_The_Threat_to_America_(Team_B_II_Report)_9-14-10.pdf. After that, if you want to talk, PM me, but don't ignore the threat. It's real, it's serious, and it's coming.

Ody...it's like this. On the scale your a 10 when regards to concern for the threat of Islam and I'm like a 5-6 tops. Yes...I understand the inherant authoritarian tendancies of the religion. I also used to be an avid believer of most of everything you think. I religiously read Frontpage.com and bought every thing hook line and sinker that Horowitz, Kagan, Wolfowitz, (to name a few) was saying.

There are some mighty fine Officers, I'm sure, who contributed to the piece from the Center for Security policy.
But I have also read many extensive studies against our current COA in the ME from other just as distinguished retirees. General Zinni and General Hoar come to mind and their critiques of how the GWOT has been handled imprudently. Then there are other respectable historians and analysis from the likes of Chalmer's Johnson, Robert Pape, and Michael Sheuer that tell a more cautionary tale of what is at risk with regards to current policy.
I will consider reading the piece in entirety when I have the time. Thanks.

The point is you can be strong and proactive and ready to face the threat, and not be overstretched. And then there are two old wise quote from Tzu still apropo and yet unheeded.

"And therefore those skilled in war bring the enemy to the field of battle and are not brought there by him."

"There is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare"