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Gingersnap
06-02-2011, 10:49 AM
Report: 'The global war on drugs has failed'
08:27 AM

By Douglas Stanglin, USA TODAY

http://i53.tinypic.com/18yget.jpg
Mexico's federal police show reporters a cache of weapons that were seized when they detained nearly 50 suspects of two major drug cartels in Mexico City last week.

A report by a global commission on drug policy declares flatly that the global war on drugs has failed, despite harsh measures against traffickers and years of vast expenditures to stamp out narcotics trafficking and use.

"The global war on drugs has failed, with devastating consequences for individuals and societies around the world," says the Report of the Global Commission on Drug Policy in its opening statement. "Fifty years after the initiation of the U.N. Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs, and 40 years after President Nixon launched the U.S. government's war on drugs, fundamental reforms in national and global drug control policies are urgently needed."

USA Today (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/06/un-commission-the-global-war-on-drugs-has-failed/1)

pyackog
06-02-2011, 10:51 AM
Not only a failure but a "war" that should never have been fought in the first place.

Rebel Yell
06-02-2011, 10:57 AM
Not only a failure but a "war" that should never have been fought in the first place.

Government: But, we had all this money. We had to spend it somewhere. :o

Lanie
06-02-2011, 02:08 PM
Government: But, we had all this money. We had to spend it somewhere. :o

How about on rehab? Seriously, make it legal, tax the crap out of the dealers, and put the money toward rehabilitation.

fettpett
06-02-2011, 02:33 PM
At lest Hemp never should been made illegal

lacarnut
06-02-2011, 02:50 PM
Why don't we just make all drugs legal. Has the war on murder failed. yep. Has the war on stealing failed. yep. You think those 46k prisoners that are going to be released from a CA prisoners are going to get a job and become upstanding citizens. Nope. When released, the drug users and pushers will steal/rob/kill to get their dope or commit crimes while high. Anyone remember Sharon Tate.

pyackog
06-02-2011, 03:18 PM
Why don't we just make all drugs legal. Has the war on murder failed. yep. Has the war on stealing failed. yep. You think those 46k prisoners that are going to be released from a CA prisoners are going to get a job and become upstanding citizens. Nope. When released, the drug users and pushers will steal/rob/kill to get their dope or commit crimes while high. Anyone remember Sharon Tate.

The reason they steal/rob/kill is because of the high price due to it being illegal. Legalize it and they will not need to do that stuff.

wilbur
06-02-2011, 03:24 PM
Why don't we just make all drugs legal. Has the war on murder failed. yep. Has the war on stealing failed. yep.

Stealing necessarily and wrongly deprives someone of their property.

Murder necessarily and wrongly deprives someone of their life.

Drug use necessarily and wrongly deprives someone of their..... hmmm.... hang on... thought I knew this one... it will come to me, I'm sure...


Can I get back to you on this?

Bailey
06-02-2011, 03:36 PM
Stealing necessarily and wrongly deprives someone of property.

Murder necessarily and wrongly deprives someone of their life.

Drug use necessarily and wrongly deprives someone of their..... hmmm.... hang on... it will come to me, I'm sure...


Can I get back to you on this?

Well if you are a drugged out loser who cant hold a job then you will deprive me of tax money to support his/her worthless ass.

Oh but you dont care about that.

lacarnut
06-02-2011, 03:37 PM
The reason they steal/rob/kill is because of the high price due to it being illegal. Legalize it and they will not need to do that stuff.

So, when I was going to college in the 70's, that did not happen. News to me. You never know with federal/state government involvement that it might be a future new entitlement. Legalization plus taxes will not equal lower prices IMO. You don't think there will be competition between the bootleggers and the legit dealers? I do. People drive across state line to avoid paying 4 or 5 dollars a pack for cigs. I thought libertarians were against higher taxes. It will certainly happen with legalization of dope. You can not have it both ways. I betcha there are some pot smoking conservatives on this board who see no problem with their recreational use. Maybe even some that poke the white shit up their nose. So, there is that.

wilbur
06-02-2011, 03:38 PM
Well if you are a drugged out loser who cant hold a job then you will deprive me of tax money to support his/her worthless ass.

Oh but you dont care about that.

As opposed to the status quo, where jobless drugged out losers don't cost you anything?

The words "necessarily" was meaningful... murder necessarily deprives another life. Drug use, depending on the situation, may lead to or make more probable, a scenario in which someone is deprived of something, sometimes - but not necessarily and possibly not even all that often, relatively speaking.

Bailey
06-02-2011, 03:39 PM
So, when I was going to college in the 70's, that did not happen. News to me. You never know with federal/state government involvement that it might be a future new entitlement. Legalization plus taxes will not equal lower prices IMO. You don't think there will be competition between the bootleggers and the legit dealers? I do. People drive across state line to avoid paying 4 or 5 dollars a pack for cigs. I thought libertarians were against higher taxes. It will certainly happen with legalization of dope. You can not have it both ways. I betcha there are some pot smoking conservatives on this board who see no problem with their recreational use. Maybe even some that poke the white shit up their nose. So, there is that.

Finer words were never spoken, a black market will crop up and then we will be back to square one.


How about we execute drug pushers and smugglers and see what that does to the drug trade? I am sure it will put a crimp into it.

wilbur
06-02-2011, 03:42 PM
Finer words were never spoken, a black market will crop up and then we will be back to square one.

How about we execute drug pushers and smugglers and see what that does to the drug trade? I am sure it will put a crimp into it.

Yea, then all we'll have to deal with is an authoritarian tyranny with unchecked (or barely checked) power to execute its citizens... no big deal!

Bailey
06-02-2011, 03:42 PM
As opposed to the status quo, where jobless drugged out losers don't cost you anything?

The words "necessarily" was meaningful... murder necessarily deprives another life. Drug use, depending on the situation, may lead to or make more probable, a scenario in which someone is deprived of something, sometimes - but not necessarily and possible not even all that often.

Answer me this: if you make drugs widely available will more or less people do them?


I am guessing MORE people will do them meaning more people on the dole you dumbass.

lacarnut
06-02-2011, 03:43 PM
Stealing necessarily and wrongly deprives someone of their property.

Murder necessarily and wrongly deprives someone of their life.

Drug use necessarily and wrongly deprives someone of their..... hmmm.... hang on... thought I knew this one... it will come to me, I'm sure...


Can I get back to you on this?

If you had a brain, you could figure it out. But, I will help you cause I feel sorry for your stupidity. Alcohol and drug use (which in many cases go hand and hand) is one of the leading causes of spousal and child abuse. Got it.

wilbur
06-02-2011, 03:47 PM
If you had a brain, you could figure it out. But, I will help you cause I feel sorry for your stupidity. Alcohol and drug use (which in many cases go hand and hand) is one of the leading causes of spousal and child abuse. Got it.

Alright, I'm convinced. Where do I sign to outlaw alcohol!?

djones520
06-02-2011, 03:49 PM
The reason they steal/rob/kill is because of the high price due to it being illegal. Legalize it and they will not need to do that stuff.

And that's bullshit. I had my car stolen, and another friend had her house broken into by the same guy, so he could pay for his drug habit. This was by a friend of ours. A friend who didn't work.

It was easier for him to commit felonies then fill out job applications.

wilbur
06-02-2011, 03:51 PM
Answer me this: if you make drugs widely available will more or less people do them?

I am guessing MORE people will do them meaning more people on the dole you dumbass.

In the case of drugs, it seems like legality has little effect on the demand (either increase, or decrease). You might get some drug users, using more often if the drugs are cheaper, but the demand will probably not increase.

djones520
06-02-2011, 03:57 PM
So tell me, if we legalize drugs like heroic, crack, and meth, do you think all the addicts out there are going to become upstanding productive citizens? That their habits won't take over the life, and allow things like their children to suffer? They won't make the decision to buy a crack rock instead of bread and milk for their kids? While suffering from withdrawels they won't think about breaking into someones house so they can afford legal crack?

If you think make it easier to get is going to make junkies suddenly normal people, you need to stop smoking the shit. The drug is what controls their life, and that is why it's illegal. Because it puts others in harms way.

wilbur
06-02-2011, 04:00 PM
So tell me, if we legalize drugs like heroic, crack, and meth, do you think all the addicts out there are going to become upstanding productive citizens? That their habits won't take over the life, and allow things like their children to suffer? They won't make the decision to buy a crack rock instead of bread and milk for their kids? While suffering from withdrawels they won't think about breaking into someones house so they can afford legal crack?

If you think make it easier to get is going to make junkies suddenly normal people, you need to stop smoking the shit. The drug is what controls their life, and that is why it's illegal. Because it puts others in harms way.

Of course it won't - but you definitely aren't buying a junkie a sober life with the war on drugs. Ending the war on drugs is less about fixing junkies, and more about re-calibrating our ineffective, costly, tyranny producing reaction to them.

Junkies cost us, they always will cost us, there's no getting around it.

Bailey
06-02-2011, 04:00 PM
In the case of drugs, it seems like legality has little effect on the demand (either increase, or decrease). You might get some drug users, using more often if the drugs are cheaper, but the demand will probably not increase.

Well I dont agree with you, I think if you make them cheaper and more readily available usage will go up.

I really dont want to find out so lets become more draconian in our punishments and see if that will do the trick first.

djones520
06-02-2011, 04:02 PM
Well I dont agree with you, I think if you make them cheaper and more readily available usage will go up.

I really dont want to find out so lets become more draconian in our punishments and see if that will do the trick first.

I'm down with that. I'm also for taking the kid gloves off and truly prosecuting this war. Get kill teams out there wasting these cartels, napalm some poppy fields, all that shit. Taking a few million from the drug lords now and again isn't doing shit. Start popping them off though, and shit will change fast.

Bailey
06-02-2011, 04:03 PM
Of course it won't - but you definitely aren't buying a junkie a sober life with the war on drugs. Ending the war on drugs is less about fixing junkies, and more about re-calibrating our ineffective, costly, tyranny producing reaction to them.

Junkies cost us, they always will cost us, there's no getting around it.

There is if you really cut the flow of drugs off.

fettpett
06-02-2011, 04:10 PM
I've got no problem with the hard drugs being illegal or heavily regulated, all of them except Meth have actual medical uses, meth is just dangerous for anyone involved.

Hemp though is in a completely different arena as it has literally thousands of uses outside of the "drug" use aspect.

wilbur
06-02-2011, 04:12 PM
I'm down with that. I'm also for taking the kid gloves off and truly prosecuting this war. Get kill teams out there wasting these cartels, napalm some poppy fields, all that shit. Taking a few million from the drug lords now and again isn't doing shit. Start popping them off though, and shit will change fast.

Drug crime already is the sole reason why our prison population dwarfs any other prison population in the world - we've prosecuted the shit out of it.

If you want to stop cartels, lets stop cartels - they do more than just sell drugs.

If you want to stop drug use... well, you're probably not gonna.

djones520
06-02-2011, 04:13 PM
Drug crime already is the sole reason why our prison population dwarfs any other prison population in the world - we've prosecuted the shit out of it.

If you want to stop cartels, lets stop cartels - they do more than just sell drugs.

If you want to stop drug use... well, you're probably not gonna.

Stop the guys providing it, and you'll severely curtail it.

wilbur
06-02-2011, 04:14 PM
There is if you really cut the flow of drugs off.

Which is impossible to do. You shut off the heroine supply, record numbers of oxycontin suddenly "go missing", or they turn to alcohol, or huffing paint, or whatever the hell. People are infinitely creative at inventing ways to get high, you can't stop that, no matter how many cartels you take out.

fettpett
06-02-2011, 04:30 PM
thing with cartels is that they are making money and LOTS of it because they don't have the over head that a legal enterprise does, they can keep that 30-60% that governments take out of legal business. And since people can't get things legally they are the only ones that can provide it and thus have no legal competition to drive them out of business. People will ALWAYS go for what is easier so while a small number of people would still go the illegal route, the vast majority would go the legal route as we've seen in CA.

lacarnut
06-02-2011, 04:43 PM
Which is impossible to do. You shut off the heroine supply, record numbers of oxycontin suddenly "go missing", or they turn to alcohol, or huffing paint, or whatever the hell. People are infinitely creative at inventing ways to get high, you can't stop that, no matter how many cartels you take out.

All of the policing in the world can not stop murder, rape, theft, etc either. Like DJ stated; let's treat it like a war. Kill off the poppy fields and go after the drug cartels around the world. Make jail a living hell, no TV, no cigs, no cokes, candy, etc. House all prisons in massive facilities in mountain states & AK and keep the temp at a cool 50 degrees. Make prison a place they will never want to go back to. Feed them bologna sand. The US coddles prisoners. That is why we have a high prison population.

I am all for closing Gitmo. Pay the Russians to house them in Siberia. The sand monkeys who want to harm us that are not citizens should be made to live in severe condition rather than the country club setting that they have now. Instead of fighting a half ass war on terrorist and drugs, we should be fighting one to win. That sure as hell is not happening now.

fettpett
06-02-2011, 05:01 PM
why put them in Siberia when we could put them in Alaska? there are places that are just as bad if not worse than Siberia up there

lacarnut
06-02-2011, 05:04 PM
. People will ALWAYS go for what is easier so while a small number of people would still go the illegal route, the vast majority would go the legal route as we've seen in CA.

But what happens when a state like CA decides to tax legal grass at 33%. That will be a game changer for sure. Grass will be included in those sin taxes just like cigs, booze and gambling. Therefore, a state like CA that is strapped for cash decides that they need more money, the percentage of their take will go up and up and up. Sin taxes are going up all around the country because it meets less resistance than sales or property taxes from voters. So, that 33% today might be a 100% down the road. Then the disparity in price between legal and illegal grass will be even that much greater.

wilbur
06-02-2011, 05:09 PM
All of the policing in the world can not stop murder, rape, theft, etc either. Like DJ stated; let's treat it like a war. Kill off the poppy fields and go after the drug cartels around the world. Make jail a living hell, no TV, no cigs, no cokes, candy, etc. House all prisons in massive facilities in mountain states & AK and keep the temp at a cool 50 degrees. Make prison a place they will never want to go back to. Feed them bologna sand. The US coddles prisoners. That is why we have a high prison population.

I am all for closing Gitmo. Pay the Russians to house them in Siberia. The sand monkeys who want to harm us that are not citizens should be made to live in severe condition rather than the country club setting that they have now. Instead of fighting a half ass war on terrorist and drugs, we should be fighting one to win. That sure as hell is not happening now.

Murder and theft and rape all necessarily deprive somebody, somewhere of something to which they are rightfully entitled. Drug use can only, sometimes, contribute to situations where somebody gets deprived of something, but its by no means a given, at all. Those are silly comparisons.

But, lets assume for a minute that all this is true, that we could seriously reduce drug use with such tactics. Its still questionable as to whether we should. If we want a country which respects individual autonomy and fundamental liberties, can you really justify all this?

We could seriously reduce the problems caused by alcohol if we outlawed it and did all those same things. Same with tobacco. Why shouldn't we?

fettpett
06-02-2011, 05:09 PM
people still buy cigs...and I doubt many people will complain too much since it's been illegal for so long, plus the majority of people that smoke don't smoke nearly as much as they do cigs. plus on top of that one will know that it's not laced with other crap.

fettpett
06-02-2011, 05:11 PM
We could seriously reduce the problems caused by alcohol if we outlawed it and did all those same things.

yeah, we tried that once and look what happened...some of the biggest crime syndicates in American history got started and thrived the same thing is happening with pot

lacarnut
06-02-2011, 05:11 PM
why put them in Siberia when we could put them in Alaska? there are places that are just as bad if not worse than Siberia up there

To shed them from the eyeballs of the media, human rights activists and bleeding heart liberals in this country.

fettpett
06-02-2011, 05:12 PM
To shed them from the eyeballs of the media, human rights activists and bleeding heart liberals in this country.

it's much easier to build and keep stuff like that secret on our own soil than paying someone else

lacarnut
06-02-2011, 05:39 PM
Murder and theft and rape all necessarily deprive somebody, somewhere of something to which they are rightfully entitled. Drug use can only, sometimes, contribute to situations where somebody gets deprived of something, but its by no means a given, at all. Those are silly comparisons.

But, lets assume for a minute that all this is true, that we could seriously reduce drug use with such tactics. Its still questionable as to whether we should. If we want a country which respects individual autonomy and fundamental liberties, can you really justify all this?

We could seriously reduce the problems caused by alcohol if we outlawed it and did all those same things. Same with tobacco. Why shouldn't we?

You are talking to someone who was addicted to alcohol, cigs, codeine and smoked a little grass in college. Plus, I have 2 stepsons that abused drugs that are 6 feet under. I doubt that your experience matches mine. So, if I had a choice that those substances were unheard of, what do you think my answer would be? You are free to put anything into your body that you want but all of us that have worked have to pay for those abuses. Therefore, I am against legalization of grass except for patients with cancer. Unlike you, I do believe that one day you will have to answer for that.

Bailey
06-02-2011, 05:48 PM
You are talking to someone who was addicted to alcohol, cigs, codeine and smoked a little grass in college. Plus, I have 2 stepsons that abused drugs that are 6 feet under. I doubt that your experience matches mine. So, if I had a choice that those substances were unheard of, what do you think my answer would be? You are free to put anything into your body that you want but all of us that have worked have to pay for those abuses. Therefore, I am against legalization of grass except for patients with cancer. Unlike you, I do believe that one day you will have to answer for that.

All the worthless drug users never realize that what they do effects the world around them and its just as bad as what the dealers and smugglers do.

You want to do drugs fine with me but you deal with the consequences such has not being able to feed yourselves and housing. As long as my tax dollars doesnt support your habit in anyway shape or form I dont care if you kill yourselves

Hawkgirl
06-02-2011, 06:09 PM
The US Government has no business becoming the largest drug dealer/distributer.

If you talk to children that were brought up with drug addicted parents, they will tell you about the harm.
That is if they raised the kids themselves.

pyackog
06-02-2011, 10:42 PM
So, when I was going to college in the 70's, that did not happen. News to me. You never know with federal/state government involvement that it might be a future new entitlement. Legalization plus taxes will not equal lower prices IMO. You don't think there will be competition between the bootleggers and the legit dealers? I do. People drive across state line to avoid paying 4 or 5 dollars a pack for cigs. I thought libertarians were against higher taxes. It will certainly happen with legalization of dope. You can not have it both ways. I betcha there are some pot smoking conservatives on this board who see no problem with their recreational use. Maybe even some that poke the white shit up their nose. So, there is that.

I would be willing to bet every penny I have that prices would go down significantly if drugs were legalized. I don't know what you are referring to about the 70s but I don't know about anything being legal then.

I am quite sure that they would then be taxed...libertarians are also against needless government spending though and I'd rather save the billions we spend each year on this and collect the sin taxes as well.

pyackog
06-02-2011, 10:46 PM
Answer me this: if you make drugs widely available will more or less people do them?


I am guessing MORE people will do them meaning more people on the dole you dumbass.

It has been suggested that after an initial increase in usage, usage levels would go back to around where they are now. The theory is that criminalization does not stop people who really want to use...they are either smart enough to avoid drugs are dumb enough to use them.

The heavy users would probably kill themselves fairly quickly thus removing themselves from the dole. And whatever number of people who would have wound up in prison (which is the same as being on the public dole only even more expensive) won't wind up there now.