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Cold Warrior
09-05-2008, 09:35 AM
Unemployment rate unexpectedly soars to 6.1%
Nonfarm payrolls fall by 84,000 in August, more than expected

By Greg Robb, MarketWatch

Last update: 9:13 a.m. EDT Sept. 5, 2008Comments: 93WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- The unemployment rate soared to 6.1% in August, the highest rate in almost five years, as the economy took a turn for the worse. The rate has steadily climbed this year from a cycle low of 4.4%.

U.S. stock futures dropped sharply after the data were released Friday morning.

Nonfarm payrolls decreased by 84,000, the Labor Department reported Friday, more than the 75,000 drop expected by economists surveyed by MarketWatch. See Economic Calendar.

"It looks pretty dismal. The theme [is] of a U.S. economy sliding ever so surely into recession," said Michael Gregory, a senior economist at BMO Capital Markets in Toronto. In the months ahead, job losses of more than 100,000 will be much more commonplace, he said.

The factory sector, especially the auto industry, shed jobs in August. Employment services, considered a bellwether of future labor-market trends, also had sharp losses.

The weak labor market is sure to rekindle fears of an incipient recession among traders. Economists have been warning that the economy appeared to be stalling, but Wall Street was dazzled late last month by the strong 3.3% GDP growth reported in the April-June quarter.

Other aspects of the report pointed toward a weakening labor market.
Payroll losses in the previous two months were larger than previously estimated.

More... (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/economic-report-jobless-rate-soars/story.aspx?guid=%7B2509A10E-5540-480C-B7DC-DEBD87E744EB%7D&dist=hpts)

PoliCon
09-05-2008, 09:40 AM
unexpectedly? The rate almost always goes up right before an election. Factor in the rise in the minimum wage and kids going back to school and there are more people unemployed today.

Cold Warrior
09-05-2008, 09:43 AM
unexpectedly? The rate almost always goes up right before an election.

They were predicting a loss of 75000 jobs and a rate holding at 5.9%. Also, jobs were predicted to rebound in the second half of the year. They're clearly not as we've now had 8 straight months of job losses.

But, we can always blame it on Jimmah Carter.

lacarnut
09-05-2008, 09:57 AM
They were predicting a loss of 75000 jobs and a rate holding at 5.9%. Also, jobs were predicted to rebound in the second half of the year. They're clearly not as we've now had 8 straight months of job losses.

But, we can always blame it on Jimmah Carter.

Betwee the do nothing Congress and the favortie in this election, Obama, Business's are not hiring at this juncture. More like they are laying off because of uncertainity. Have you noticed the stock market lately? That makes more sense than your stupid anology regarding the Prez.

Cold Warrior
09-05-2008, 10:01 AM
Betwee the do nothing Congress and the favortie in this election, Obama, Business's are not hiring at this juncture. More like they are laying off because of uncertainity. Have you noticed the stock market lately? That makes more sense than your stupid anology regarding the Prez.

Sorry, the Peanut Prez isn't my mantra, but rather that of others here. Along with, of course, it was higher than this during the evil Clinton presidency (failing to note that it was higher in the first couple of years inherited from GHWB and fell pretty consistently after that).

LogansPapa
09-05-2008, 10:20 AM
NEGATIVE NANCY! What's the matter with you!? Don't trot out reality in the last 60 days before the election!:mad:

Cold Warrior
09-05-2008, 10:32 AM
NEGATIVE NANCY! What's the matter with you!? Don't trot out reality in the last 60 days before the election!:mad:

Well, who says you can't learn anything here. I just learned that Obama, by having the audacity to run for president, is responsible for the worsening economic mess in this country. And, of course, we all know that for the last two years at least the Congress is also to blame. I, in my naivite, would have supposed that the Idiot Child and his administration might have had some role to play in it.

SaintLouieWoman
09-05-2008, 10:36 AM
Betwee the do nothing Congress and the favortie in this election, Obama, Business's are not hiring at this juncture. More like they are laying off because of uncertainity. Have you noticed the stock market lately? That makes more sense than your stupid anology regarding the Prez.
Stuart Varney on Fox just commented that the dems will be expected to take these numbers and run with them. What they aren't saying is that the economies of Japan and China are slowing down, worse than the downturn in the US. It's all in the spin. If you're a dim and negative nelly, of course they'll do that spin.

linda22003
09-05-2008, 10:37 AM
I don't even want to look at the market today. :mad:

LogansPapa
09-05-2008, 10:38 AM
A Republican president has very little to do with anything that happens to the US economy during his (and should I now say her?) administration - unless, of course, everythingís rosy in that department.

wineslob
09-05-2008, 10:56 AM
Untill we get a handle on the oil prices (drill now), people, like me, aren't going anywhere or doing anything.
While I was in Hawaii, the people I talked to said the tourist trade was down 30-40%, yet the idiots in the restaurant trade had jacked up prices. :confused: Captive audience I guess.

LogansPapa
09-05-2008, 11:06 AM
Come on folks - lets all get together and sing the song.........:)


The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
Bet your bottom dollar
That tomorrow
There'll be sun!

Just thinkin' about
Tomorrow
Clears away the cobwebs,
And the sorrow
'Til there's none!

When I'm stuck a day
That's gray,
And lonely,
I just stick out my chin
And Grin,
And Say,
Oh!

The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
So ya gotta hang on
'Til tomorrow
Come what may
Tomorrow! Tomorrow!
I love ya Tomorrow!
You're always
A day
A way!

wineslob
09-05-2008, 11:33 AM
Come on folks - lets all get together and sing the song.........:)


The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
Bet your bottom dollar
That tomorrow
There'll be sun!

Just thinkin' about
Tomorrow
Clears away the cobwebs,
And the sorrow
'Til there's none!

When I'm stuck a day
That's gray,
And lonely,
I just stick out my chin
And Grin,
And Say,
Oh!

The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
So ya gotta hang on
'Til tomorrow
Come what may
Tomorrow! Tomorrow!
I love ya Tomorrow!
You're always
A day
A way!

A six pack of beer or a bottle of wine is much easier. :p

biccat
09-05-2008, 11:35 AM
Come on folks - lets all get together and sing the song.........:)

Why don't you just come out and say it.

"Hooray for the Savior, The Messiobama!" Because once he gets into office everything will be candycanes and rainbows again. :rolleyes:

You're so damn transparent.

Rebel Yell
09-05-2008, 11:37 AM
The way I figure it, 4 - 5% of the population just don't want to work. Are welfare recipients figured into unemployment rates? Serious question. I hope not.

Cold Warrior
09-05-2008, 11:48 AM
The way I figure it, 4 - 5% of the population just don't want to work. Are welfare recipients figured into unemployment rates? Serious question. I hope not.

While I'm not sure, I think long-term unemployed roll off the lists and therefore are not counted. Additionally, the 1% of the total population (greater of the work-eligble population) who are in jail are also not included. Include those two groups and your number goes up to close to 8%

LogansPapa
09-05-2008, 12:05 PM
You're so damn transparent.

At least I can say, via my vote, Obama won't win because of me. You''ll have to find someone else to scapegoat.;)

Zeus
09-05-2008, 12:07 PM
Bush Has a Good Economic Record (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122039890722392873.html?mod=rss_opinion_main)

By KEITH MARSDEN
September 3, 2008; Page A23



Successive speakers at the Democratic National Convention poured scorn on President Bush's economic record. The clear aim was to justify the party's call for "change," and to undermine support for Republican presidential nominee John McCain. His election would mean a "third Bush term," delegates groaned.

Yet Democrats cited no good evidence for their claims that the administration has produced a stagnant economy, widening disparities of income and wealth, high unemployment, and a heavy burden of government debt (supposedly resulting from an unwise military intervention in Iraq).

How does the performance of the U.S. economy really compare with other advanced economies over the eight years of George Bush's presidency? Data published by the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), the World Bank, the International Comparison Program (ICP) (a cooperative venture coordinated by the World Bank) and the U.S. Census Bureau allow a nonpartisan, factual assessment. Here are some of the findings:

- Economic growth. U.S. output has expanded faster than in most advanced economies since 2000. The IMF reports that real U.S. gross domestic product (GDP) grew at an average annual rate of 2.2% over the period 2001-2008 (including its forecast for the current year). President Bush will leave to his successor an economy 19% larger than the one he inherited from President Clinton. This U.S. expansion compares with 14% by France, 13% by Japan and just 8% by Italy and Germany over the same period.

The latest ICP findings, published by the World Bank in its World Development Indicators 2008, also show that GDP per capita in the U.S. reached $41,813 (in purchasing power parity dollars) in 2005. This was a third higher than the United Kingdom's, 37% above Germany's and 38% more than Japan's.





- Health services. The U.S. spends easily the highest amount per capita ($6,657 in 2005) on health, more than double that in Britain. But because of private funding (55% of the total) the burden on the U.S. taxpayer (9.1% of GDP) is kept to similar levels as France and Germany. The U.S. Census Bureau reports that 84.7% of the U.S. population was covered by health insurance in 2007, an increase of 3.6 million people over 2006. The uninsured can receive treatment in hospitals at the expense of private insurance holders.




- Income and wealth distribution. The latest World Bank estimates show that the richest 20% of U.S. households had a 45.8% share of total income in 2000, similar to the levels in the U.K. (44.0%) and Israel (44.9%). In 65 other countries the richest quintile had a larger share than in the U.S.


Now I'm no economic guru but I'd venture a guess that Rising fuel costs combined with the traditional fall season jump in unemployment coupled with the recent rise in Min wage had something to do with the rise in the UE numbers.

Rebel Yell
09-05-2008, 12:07 PM
While I'm not sure, I think long-term unemployed roll off the lists and therefore are not counted. Additionally, the 1% of the total population (greater of the work-eligble population) who are in jail are also not included. Include those two groups and your number goes up to close to 8%

I know I see ALOT of able bodied people here that just don't wanna work. Easier to get welfare or disability. There are jobs out there, people just want to start at the top. Everyone thinks they should start off in managment.

lacarnut
09-05-2008, 01:06 PM
Come on folks - lets all get together and sing the song.........:)




If I lived in the kool-aid state, I would be crying too and it's all King George's fault. Arnuld and the loonies in the CA legislature are doing a bang up job with the economy and lowering taxes. NOT. Instead of worrying about Bushe, you better pack your shit and move out.:):):)

6.1% unemployment is a hell of a lot better than the EU. Germany rate is over 10%. Since you and CW think this country is going to hell in a hand basket, you'll could always move over there with their wonderful health care. Oh, that's right, you do not like paying 60 to 70% tax rates over there. That's just tough shit. I appreciate living in the greatest country in the world with great opportunity. If you don't think so, don't let the door hit you in the ass. There is a list miles long for those that want to come to the USA.

Shannon
09-05-2008, 01:11 PM
I know I see ALOT of able bodied people here that just don't wanna work. Easier to get welfare or disability. There are jobs out there, people just want to start at the top. Everyone thinks they should start off in managment.

Jobs are scarce around here right now. Over 500 people applied for my current job.:eek:

biccat
09-05-2008, 01:24 PM
Jobs are scarce around here right now. Over 500 people applied for my current job.:eek:

As I recall, you got it for your "people skills?"
:eek:

LogansPapa
09-05-2008, 01:27 PM
As I recall, you got it for your "people skills?"
:eek:

Oh Shit Snap!!! :eek:

wilbur
09-05-2008, 01:28 PM
While I'm not sure, I think long-term unemployed roll off the lists and therefore are not counted. Additionally, the 1% of the total population (greater of the work-eligble population) who are in jail are also not included. Include those two groups and your number goes up to close to 8%

This is correct.

To be counted as unemployed you must be actively seeking employment. If you retire early, or are just a lazy fuck and don't want to work, you don't get factored into the unemployment rate. If you have failed to find a job, and just stop looking, then you don't get counted.

The unemployment rate is calculated by people who are looking for work, but cannot find any (other variables are there too, such as you must be over 16, not in jail etc).

See the economic concepts of full employment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment) and types of unemployment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_unemployment)

LogansPapa
09-05-2008, 01:31 PM
That's just tough shit. I appreciate living in the greatest country in the world with great opportunity. If you don't think so, don't let the door hit you in the ass. There is a list miles long for those that want to come to the USA.

Oh stop with that leave the country shit - you dried up old dogturd! :rolleyes:

Saying things are fucked up because of the last two Bush administrations just reflects reality.

Watch how this country turns around by this time next year and you will finally realize how fucking retarded you were to vote for the schmuck - twice.

JB
09-05-2008, 02:19 PM
<OP snipped>I guess it's valid that you would make such a post.

After all, I remember all these years when unemployment was below 5%, you were the first one to post congratulating the president on doing such an excellent job.

When the market was above 15,000, it was always you that started the thread thanking the president for the increase in your portfolio.

When Arsenal was dominating, you were always there giving props to Bush for organizing such a prolific team.

/end rolleyes

:p

linda22003
09-05-2008, 02:26 PM
When the market was above 15,000, it was always you that started the thread thanking the president for the increase in your portfolio.
:p

Wow - when was that? I wasn't aware the market was ever above 14.1k, last October.

JB
09-05-2008, 02:35 PM
Wow - when was that? I wasn't aware the market was ever above 14.1k, last October.14K, 15K, 100K. What's the difference relative to the point of the post? I don't think Bush ever coached Arsenal either. I'll have to go check. ;)

linda22003
09-05-2008, 02:36 PM
The president - no matter who it is - is not a market driver, but whether it ever got to 15k matters a lot to some of us.

biccat
09-05-2008, 02:37 PM
When Arsenal was dominating, you were always there giving props to Bush for organizing such a prolific team.

Wow - when was that? I wasn't aware the team was ever above mediocre.
[/linda#s]

JB
09-05-2008, 02:44 PM
The president - no matter who it is - is not a market driver, but whether it ever got to 15k matters a lot to some of us.I'm sure it does. Although direction forward is not always important to me. I've been playing it short. Been making a killing.

SaintLouieWoman
09-05-2008, 02:56 PM
I don't even want to look at the market today. :mad:
The Dow is up 31 points at the moment.

JB
09-05-2008, 03:05 PM
The Dow is up 31 points at the moment.My guess is that it will close up. The players got out yesterday, anticipating a 6 on the unemployment number today. Go buy back in now. :D

lacarnut
09-05-2008, 04:52 PM
Oh stop with that leave the country shit - you dried up old dogturd! :rolleyes:

Saying things are fucked up because of the last two Bush administrations just reflects reality.

Watch how this country turns around by this time next year and you will finally realize how fucking retarded you were to vote for the schmuck - twice.

You are the one that is always posting negative articles about King George. Why don't you STFU. It must suck to be a miserable, pathetic, gloom and doom piece of rat shit like you. Like I said if you think it is so bad here, don't let the door hit you in the ass.

6.1% is not a bad unemployment figure which is almost less than 1/2 of Germany's unemployment rate. I guess an idiot like you does not get it.

Molon Labe
09-05-2008, 05:32 PM
NEGATIVE NANCY! What's the matter with you!? Don't trot out reality in the last 60 days before the election!:mad:

We just need another stimulus package. This time I would like Bushy to cut me a $2,000 check from China.
:rolleyes:

LogansPapa
09-05-2008, 05:36 PM
We just need another stimulus package. This time I would like Bushy to cut me a $2,000 check from China.
:rolleyes:

:D:p:D Okay, very funny stuff!

Zeus
09-05-2008, 06:21 PM
The president - no matter who it is - is not a market driver, but whether it ever got to 15k matters a lot to some of us.

While that may be true overall a Presidents and/or congressional economic policies can negatively or positively affect the overall economic picture.. I'll bet ya anything if congress made the Bush taxcuts permanent you would see an almost immediate erasure of most the issues currently negatively affecting the economy. Perhaps announcing the lifting of the ban on oil exploration would also affect current economic conditions.

Eyelids
09-05-2008, 07:30 PM
You are the one that is always posting negative articles about King George. Why don't you STFU. It must suck to be a miserable, pathetic, gloom and doom piece of rat shit like you. Like I said if you think it is so bad here, don't let the door hit you in the ass.

6.1% is not a bad unemployment figure which is almost less than 1/2 of Germany's unemployment rate. I guess an idiot like you does not get it.

lacarnut post:

1. Personal attack.
2. Basic rebuttal of a point, usually consists of just repeating a comment verbatum but adding a negative.
3. Random negative correlation to a preferably western-European* country.
4. Personal attack.

*France and the UK are most preferable, but in a pinch Germany will do. Avoid Norway and Sweden, as those countries are quite successful.

SarasotaRepub
09-05-2008, 08:13 PM
We just need another stimulus package. This time I would like Bushy to cut me a $2,000 check from China.
:rolleyes:

I'd like a condo in Boca, a really nice one. :p:D

Cold Warrior
09-05-2008, 08:30 PM
You are the one that is always posting negative articles about King George. Why don't you STFU. It must suck to be a miserable, pathetic, gloom and doom piece of rat shit like you. Like I said if you think it is so bad here, don't let the door hit you in the ass.

6.1% is not a bad unemployment figure which is almost less than 1/2 of Germany's unemployment rate. I guess an idiot like you does not get it.

The current unemployment rate (ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ForeignLabor/flsjec.txt) in Germany is 7.5% and 7.6% in France. Both countries also count the portion of the population who are incarcerated as unemployed (although they have a signififcantly lower percentage in jail), while the US does not. Looks like you're the idiot again, lackshisnuts. Quelle surprise!

ReaganForRus
09-05-2008, 08:43 PM
What the economy is reflecting is the investment bank/ national banks bailout of the Structured Investment Vehicles ( subprime paper) Like oil, credit is a life fuel for an open and free market economy. Businesses in time of economic uncertainty do more with less.........nothing more, nothing less.

The economy will be fine as long as the Congress doesn't f things up with the BHO tax increases.

Cold Warrior
09-05-2008, 08:53 PM
What the economy is reflecting is the investment bank/ national banks bailout of the Structured Investment Vehicles ( subprime paper) Like oil, credit is a life fuel for an open and free market economy. Businesses in time of economic uncertainty do more with less.........nothing more, nothing less.

The economy will be fine as long as the Congress doesn't f things up with the BHO tax increases.

Well, yes and no. The losses of some of the major investment banks in MBSs (Mortgage Backed Securities) have been staggering. One of the two major Swiss Banks, for example, is under serious scruitiny from Swiss Regulators as to whether or not they should be taken over by the other.

However, the current economic crisis is not as simple as that. The housing crash has rippled through the economy, not only adversely impacting the investment banks, but also the labor market, manufacturing, and retail. This, coupled with the spike in oil prices, a result in large part of the Fed's attempt at stimulating the economy by lower interest rates and thereby driving the value of the dollar down (and the price of dollar-denominated oil up), has also made the crisis significantly worse. Finally, throw in the costs of the Iraq War, and you're well on your way to GHWB's New World Order.

AmPat
09-05-2008, 09:50 PM
They were predicting a loss of 75000 jobs and a rate holding at 5.9%. Also, jobs were predicted to rebound in the second half of the year. They're clearly not as we've now had 8 straight months of job losses.

But, we can always blame it on Jimmah Carter.

And cue the Defeatocrats in 3----------2--------1-------------ACTION!:rolleyes:

GrumpyOldLady
09-06-2008, 05:38 AM
that unemployment rate will be a heck of a lot higher if Obama gets in.

Obama = Jimmy Carter II

Complete with gas lines and unemployment.

Cold Warrior
09-06-2008, 07:57 AM
that unemployment rate will be a heck of a lot higher if Obama gets in.

Obama = Jimmy Carter II

Complete with gas lines and unemployment.

According to some here, he's already responsible for it! Along with the Congress (last two years only, of course), Bill Clinton, and, of course Jimmy Carter. Notice any patterns here?

PoliCon
09-06-2008, 09:03 AM
Let us ask ourselves: Who created the economic problems we're experiencing in the first place?

Who was it that insisted that lenders give these problems subprime loans in the first place and passed laws to that effect?

Who was it that pushed through the ethanol subsidies and exploration bans - both on offshore drill and on oil shale not to mention drilling in ANWAR?

Who was it who removed the gold standard?

WE NEED TERM LIMITS for congress. While the lions share of the blame falls at the feet of the dems - the GOP shares in that blame as well. We need to remove the incentives they have for pushing for and supporting this kind of CRAP.

Cold Warrior
09-06-2008, 09:39 AM
Let us ask ourselves: Who created the economic problems we're experiencing in the first place?

Who was it that insisted that lenders give these problems subprime loans in the first place and passed laws to that effect?

Who was it that pushed through the ethanol subsidies and exploration bans - both on offshore drill and on oil shale not to mention drilling in ANWAR?

Who was it who removed the gold standard?

WE NEED TERM LIMITS for congress. While the lions share of the blame falls at the feet of the dems - the GOP shares in that blame as well. We need to remove the incentives they have for pushing for and supporting this kind of CRAP.

Uhm, the Republicans have controlled the presidency for 28 of the last 40 years and both houses of Congress for 11 of the last 14. Damn! You gotta hand it to those evil Dims. They sure work hard to accomplish so much damage in so little time. Of course, when you're special like Obama, you can drive up the unemployment rate just by running for president.

The subprime problem arose out of deregulation of the lending agencies (deregulation always = good, remember) that occured under Clinton and was supported by the Republican Congress. Government did not "push" these loans as there was no need to. The market took care of that. The subprime market was the only thing that kept the US out of a major post-9/11 recession, as the housing industry,. spurred on by lack of regulation and bad credit underpinnings, drove the economy for a number of years.

Ethanol subsidies are generally supported by both parties. Drilling bans are the product of the Dims.

The gold standard in the US was fully abandoned under Richard Milhous Nixon, a Republican if I remember correctly.

d_va
09-06-2008, 11:55 AM
A lot of the summer seasonal jobs shut down now....pools, amusement parks, beaches....and will crank up again for the holdiays.

Never could understand unemployment rates, is that based on who applies for the benefit checks?

Constitutionally Speaking
09-06-2008, 12:17 PM
The problems of our economy are largely due to the price of oil. The rise in the price of oil acts just like a huge tax increase, it saps money that would otherwise be put to productive use.


Also just like tax increases, there is a "policy lag" it takes time for these things to work their way through the system. If oil prices continue to fall, wait and see, you will see an upsurge in the economy 6 - 12months from now.

Cold Warrior
09-06-2008, 12:37 PM
The problems of our economy are largely due to the price of oil. The rise in the price of oil acts just like a huge tax increase, it saps money that would otherwise be put to productive use.


Also just like tax increases, there is a "policy lag" it takes time for these things to work their way through the system. If oil prices continue to fall, wait and see, you will see an upsurge in the economy 6 - 12months from now.

In general, I agree, although I think we disagree as to the primary cause behind the rise (and, as happens many times, we're probably both partially correct).

However, I would not underestimate the impact of the housing crisis which is largely independent of the price of oil.

AmPat
09-06-2008, 12:56 PM
In general, I agree, although I think we disagree as to the primary cause behind the rise (and, as happens many times, we're probably both partially correct).

However, I would not underestimate the impact of the housing crisis which is largely independent of the price of oil.

Largely a result of unprecedented building. When new housing outbuilds new buyers, the boom was destined to burst. When the population and need arises, sales and building will recover.

Constitutionally Speaking
09-06-2008, 02:25 PM
In general, I agree, although I think we disagree as to the primary cause behind the rise (and, as happens many times, we're probably both partially correct).

However, I would not underestimate the impact of the housing crisis which is largely independent of the price of oil.


The initial part of the housing crisis was absolutely independent from the price of oil. It was a reaction to the absolutely crazy bidding up of real estate by speculators and easy credit. However, that part of the bust has long since passed and what it continuing the bust is the unemployment, and the pressure brought on family budgets by inflation - both of which are directly a result of the price of oil.

PoliCon
09-06-2008, 08:12 PM
Uhm, the Republicans have controlled the presidency for 28 of the last 40 years and both houses of Congress for 11 of the last 14. Damn! You gotta hand it to those evil Dims. They sure work hard to accomplish so much damage in so little time. Of course, when you're special like Obama, you can drive up the unemployment rate just by running for president.and here we see the result of public education. Unwillingness to inquiry and inability to discover FACTS.



The subprime problem arose out of deregulation of the lending agencies (deregulation always = good, remember) that occured under Clinton and was supported by the Republican Congress. Government did not "push" these loans as there was no need to. The market took care of that. The subprime market was the only thing that kept the US out of a major post-9/11 recession, as the housing industry,. spurred on by lack of regulation and bad credit underpinnings, drove the economy for a number of years. You have to go back to 1994 and the Community Reinvestment Act to find the root of the subprime problem. go and educate yourself and then we'll talk. http://moneyrunner.blogspot.com/2008/05/subprime-lending-or-how-liberals-in.html


Ethanol subsidies are generally supported by both parties.Never said they weren't. Here as in most cases of problems coming out of congress the problem was th need to buy votes. Too many people have learned the lessons of FDR - give the people largesses from the public treasury and they will vote for you forever.


Drilling bans are the product of the Dims. actually they are a product of the enviroweenies who are wholesale a subsidiary of the democratic party.


The gold standard in the US was fully abandoned under Richard Milhous Nixon, a Republican if I remember correctly.Nixon broke the last tie - an artificial tie to the gold standard - but he was not the one who took us down that road - the person who did the dead without taking the blame.

PoliCon
09-06-2008, 08:15 PM
Largely a result of unprecedented building. When new housing outbuilds new buyers, the boom was destined to burst. When the population and need arises, sales and building will recover. That and the rash of property speculators in the market. I'm still waiting to find out what percentage of foreclosures are speculators vs those who were actually residents in the houses the owned. Has anyone else noticed that the bulk of the relief proposed would benefit speculator far more than those who actually reside in the houses in danger of foreclosure?

OwlMBA
09-07-2008, 07:44 PM
Boo-freakin-hoo.

Anyone know what the unemployment rate is in the other major industrialized nations with Liberal policies, like German and France?

Germany - 7.7%
France - 7.2%

So maybe the liberals should be scared of growing unemployment when it is proven that it is liberal employment policies that create unemployment! And a quick look at Europe proves that.

Cold Warrior
09-07-2008, 07:49 PM
Boo-freakin-hoo.

Anyone know what the unemployment rate is in the other major industrialized nations with Liberal policies, like German and France?

Germany - 7.7%
France - 7.2%

So maybe the liberals should be scared of growing unemployment when it is proven that it is liberal employment policies that create unemployment! And a quick look at Europe proves that.

And at 6.1%, if you count the 1% of the population in jail which is not counted as unemployed in our statistics and is in France's and Germany's, the real US statistic (comparing oranges to oranges) is probably around 6.7%, after 8 years of a Republican presidency and 11 out of the last 14 years of a Republican Congress. Additionally, during the last 3 years, the French and German rates have declined from 10%+ to the current rates.

OwlMBA
09-07-2008, 07:53 PM
And at 6.1%, if you count the 1% of the population in jail which is not counted as unemployed in our statistics and is in France's and Germany's, the real US statistic (comparing oranges to oranges) is probably around 6.7%, after 8 years of a Republican presidency and 11 out of the last 14 years of a Republican Congress. Additionally, during the last 3 years, the French and German rates have declined from 10%+ to the current rates.

Since a Republican President cannot author legislation, what exactly did he do to affect the unemployment rate? Is the liberal congress at all to blame?

The number one cause of our unemployment rate is the absolute implosion of our manufacturing economy brought on by Unions with absurd demands of stratospheric pay and benefits for an underqualified and un productive labor force.

Cold Warrior
09-07-2008, 07:58 PM
Since a Republican President cannot author legislation, what exactly did he do to affect the unemployment rate? Is the liberal congress at all to blame?

You mean, of course, the same Congress that has been run by the Republicans (both houses) for 11 of the last 14 years?


The number one cause of our unemployment rate is the absolute implosion of our manufacturing economy brought on by Unions with absurd demands of stratospheric pay and benefits for an underqualified and un productive labor force.

The unions didn't send jobs overseas, globalization did. Do you think US manufacturing workers should make comparable wages to what they do in China and India? If not, if you think they should make more, then why would a US manufacturer make goods here? With technology and modern transportation, the cost of transporting those goods here (until recently at least) has ben neglible.

OwlMBA
09-07-2008, 08:26 PM
You mean, of course, the same Congress that has been run by the Republicans (both houses) for 11 of the last 14 years?



The unions didn't send jobs overseas, globalization did. Do you think US manufacturing workers should make comparable wages to what they do in China and India? If not, if you think they should make more, then why would a US manufacturer make goods here? With technology and modern transportation, the cost of transporting those goods here (until recently at least) has ben neglible.

So it was the republican congress' fault when Clinton was president, but its not the Democratic congress' fault when Bush is President?

You may recall that the unemployment rate was in a FREE FALL for the last few years, but now that we have a Democratic congress it is going back up. Is it their fault?

I think that all laborers should make what companies are willing to pay them without an illegal Cartel fixing the price of labor. The simple fact is that literally anyone can do most factory jobs. You could toss out the Unions and replace their workforce for minimum wage in most factory jobs. And that is exactly what they need to do to survive.

Imagine what GM's operating costs would look like if they were allowed to pay what their workers were worth, which is probably about $15k per year. heck, they may actually stay in business!

LogansPapa
09-07-2008, 08:37 PM
The simple fact is that literally anyone can do most factory jobs. You could toss out the Unions and replace their workforce for minimum wage in most factory jobs. And that is exactly what they need to do to survive.

That's one of the stupidest things ever to be posted in this forum. Absolutely asinine.:rolleyes:

OwlMBA
09-07-2008, 09:03 PM
That's one of the stupidest things ever to be posted in this forum. Absolutely asinine.:rolleyes:

Too bad it has been proven time after time. AK Steel in Ohio locked out their Union (average wage, 76k per year) and replaced every one of them with minimum wage laborers for 3 years.

Quality was up and output increased double digits. Labor cost declined over 60%.

Unions also prevent companies from using automation tools and robots which work much faster, more more reliably, and for much less money. And as long as they keep the US manufacturing economy in the Dark Ages we will continue to suck wind.

lacarnut
09-07-2008, 09:11 PM
That's one of the stupidest things ever to be posted in this forum. Absolutely asinine.:rolleyes:

Damn, I have to agree with that. Owl says most factory workers are not worth more than $15k per year. The Japs must be stupid to pay their auto factory workers at plants here 3 times or more in yearly salary.

PoliCon
09-07-2008, 09:12 PM
the French and German rates have declined from 10%+ to the current rates. And they did so by moving AWAY from socialist economic policies and towards free markets and conservative economic principles. They lowered cooperate and business taxes and whoom - economic growth!

OwlMBA
09-07-2008, 09:13 PM
Damn, I have to agree with that. Owl says most factory workers are not worth more than $15k per year. The Japs must be stupid to pay their auto factory workers at plants here 3 times or more in yearly salary.

the Japs do it to keep out the Unions. I would pay non-Union laborers a higher wage because they dont bring the risk of extortion (strikes) with them. That is worth the premium.

But if I cant fire you and you can legally fix my labor costs, I would pay you less too.

PoliCon
09-07-2008, 09:14 PM
Since a Republican President cannot author legislation, what exactly did he do to affect the unemployment rate? Is the liberal congress at all to blame?

The number one cause of our unemployment rate is the absolute implosion of our manufacturing economy brought on by Unions with absurd demands of stratospheric pay and benefits for an underqualified and un productive labor force.Don't forget that rise in the minimum wage pushing up business expenses and putting people out of work. Go to the Grocery store.

LogansPapa
09-07-2008, 09:57 PM
Don't forget that rise in the minimum wage pushing up business expenses and putting people out of work. Go to the Grocery store.

Again - astoundingly stupid.

#1 reason for grocery price increases is transportation costs and electricity to cool things in the store.

Minimum wage laws have shit to do with grocery prices. Zip. On the other side of the food business - would you stop buying Big Mac's if they were 50 cents more a piece? Not only no, but fuck no.

OwlMBA
09-07-2008, 10:06 PM
Again - astoundingly stupid.

#1 reason for grocery price increases is transportation costs and electricity to cool things in the store.

Minimum wage laws have shit to do with grocery prices. Zip. On the other side of the food business - would you stop buying Big Mac's if they were 50 cents more a piece? Not only no, but fuck no.

Wow! You should go teach Economics at Harvard!

Actually, minimum wages increase inflation, and inflation causes food prices to go up.

And that is basic Economic fact - not opinion. That is Econ 101 type stuff.

PoliCon
09-07-2008, 10:13 PM
Again - astoundingly stupid.

#1 reason for grocery price increases is transportation costs and electricity to cool things in the store.

Minimum wage laws have shit to do with grocery prices. Zip. On the other side of the food business - would you stop buying Big Mac's if they were 50 cents more a piece? Not only no, but fuck no. JACKASS - when was the last time you were to the grocery store? Let me fill you in on how the minimum wage effects a grocery store. SELF CHECKOUTS. We just had all of our local stores switch over most registers to self checkouts. Now instead of having to pay 6 people - they only pay 1. Before the hike - the local stores balked at it due to the cost. Not any longer.

As for big mac's - the truth is - THEY DON'T PAY MINIMUM WAGE IN MOST MARKETS!! My market is lower than the national average for cost of living and places like McDonald's START their employee's at $1-3 MORE than the minimum wage.

LogansPapa
09-07-2008, 10:14 PM
:rolleyes:

Compared with fuel costs - minimum wage increases, say - what, a dollar in the last decade - have shit to do with food prices. How many folks do you know working in a super market for minimum wages? The field hand making an extra $10 a day for picking lettuce is breaking your food budget?

Bull - Fucking - Shit.

It's a control issue. The same one that keeps people coming across the Mexican border. Employers get to treat human beings like dogs - that's why this and every other administration won't do a fucking thing about invaders coming from other countries.

It's the 'Slave Effect.'

OwlMBA
09-07-2008, 10:15 PM
JACKASS - when was the last time you were to the grocery store? Let me fill you in on how the minimum wage effects a grocery store. SELF CHECKOUTS. We just had all of our local stores switch over most registers to self checkouts. Now instead of having to pay 6 people - they only pay 1. Before the hike - the local stores balked at it due to the cost. Not any longer.

As for big mac's - the truth is - THEY DON'T PAY MINIMUM WAGE IN MOST MARKETS!! My market is lower than the national average for cost of living and places like McDonald's START their employee's at $1-3 MORE than the minimum wage.

Haha that is a great point. Minimum wage laws mean one thing - 10% higher wages for half as many employees. Yea, that works out REAL well for the bottom rung of wage earners!

All that stupid minimum wage laws do is encourage innovation and new ways to decrease your workforce. Self checkouts are one great example.

OwlMBA
09-07-2008, 10:16 PM
:rolleyes:

Compared with fuel costs - minimum wage increases, say - what, a dollar in the last decade - have shit to do with food prices. How many folks do you know working in a super market for minimum wages? The field hand making an extra $10 a day for picking lettuce is breaking your food budget?

Bull - Fucking - Shit.

It's a control issue. The same one that keeps people coming across the Mexican border. Employers get to treat human beings like dogs - that's why this and every other administration won't do a fucking thing about invaders coming from other countries.

It's the 'Slave Effect.'

If you don't like where you work, quit and go work somewhere else. I mean, if you are sooooo good at what you do, you should be able to work anywhere, right?

So then what does it stay about people who stay in these bad jobs? Maybe it says they can't get a job anywhere else and they are right where they belong.

LogansPapa
09-07-2008, 10:18 PM
JACKASS - when was the last time you were to the grocery store? Let me fill you in on how the minimum wage effects a grocery store. SELF CHECKOUTS.

Ah, I see - so there was someone, anyone - other than a starting bag boy making minimum wage at your local supermarket? BULLSHIT! A checker's minimum wage increase caused your store to invest thousands of dollars becasue............? BULLSHIT!

:p

PoliCon
09-07-2008, 10:19 PM
The minimum wage is not about helping the poor. Most people who earn minimum wager are either unskilled workers or teenagers. Minimum wage is about labor unions and their contracts which are directly tied to minimum wage. When the minmum wage goes up - they all get automatic raises.

LogansPapa
09-07-2008, 10:21 PM
So then what does it stay about people who stay in these bad jobs? Maybe it says they can't get a job anywhere else and they are right where they belong.

And that's the exact key to keeping the borders open - while giving lip service until the next administration slides in. McCain has made it perfectly clear that he'll do nothing to change the present system.

OwlMBA
09-07-2008, 10:24 PM
And that's the exact key to keeping the borders open - while giving lip service until the next administration slides in. McCain has made it perfectly clear that he'll do nothing to change the present system.

And Obama will? Maybe that success tax will fix everything. Or that "windfall profits" tax. Or that death tax. Or that small business tax. Or that increased payroll tax. Or that capital gains tax.

lacarnut
09-07-2008, 10:30 PM
the Japs do it to keep out the Unions. I would pay non-Union laborers a higher wage because they dont bring the risk of extortion (strikes) with them. That is worth the premium.

But if I cant fire you and you can legally fix my labor costs, I would pay you less too.

That is not what you said. You said the majority of mfg. workers are only worth $15k per year. I dispute the premise that wages of union auto workers are the number 1 reason that the big 3 can not compete with the
Japs in price only. The benes is what is killing them. 2 to 3 grand is priced into every car because of retirees pension and health care plans that are out of this world for the entire family. Additionally, workers at Jap plants in the states do not have any retirees and do not have these outrageous benes.

Conclusion: the big 3 could fire all union workers, replace them with non-union, and pay the same wages as Honda workers in the states and they would still be at a huge disadvantage. They could make all their cars in China with $1 an hour workers and still have a monkey on their backs with the huge expense of retirees.

LogansPapa
09-07-2008, 10:36 PM
The benes is what is killing them. 2 to 3 grand is priced into every car because of retirees pension and health care plans that are out of this world for the entire family.

Outstanding perception. Dead fucking on.:)

OwlMBA
09-07-2008, 10:40 PM
That is not what you said. You said the majority of mfg. workers are only worth $15k per year. I dispute the premise that wages of union auto workers are the number 1 reason that the big 3 can not compete with the
Japs in price only. The benes is what is killing them. 2 to 3 grand is priced into every car because of retirees pension and health care plans that are out of this world for the entire family. Additionally, workers at Jap plants in the states do not have any retirees and do not have these outrageous benes.

Conclusion: the big 3 could fire all union workers, replace them with non-union, and pay the same wages as Honda workers in the states and they would still be at a huge disadvantage. They could make all their cars in China with $1 an hour workers and still have a monkey on their backs with the huge expense of retirees.

And who demanded those insane Benefits? The Unions, that's who! And they striked to get them!

LogansPapa
09-07-2008, 10:51 PM
All that will happen is the American consumer will eventually settle for crap.

The standards for which we've become accustomed to will cease to exist.

Boeing machinist out on strike at this exact moment are a perfect example of why these tasks will go overseas - to be manufactured in Third or Fourth World nations. Which will be fine until aircraft, hauling your family members, start falling out of the sky. You can't inspect quality into components and assemblies in aircraft. The people that make them and put them together must be highly skilled and care - with every bolt, washer and nut that go into them.

The Chinese and Indians will produce a product in line with their societal standards. Look at what happens every time there is a train wreck in India for a quick education as to where we're headed.

The contracts negotiated by the UAW and the Boeing Machinists unions were done not because these organizations have a lock on the companies that produce the products - as can be seen by the very fine Toyota products produced here domestically presently.

Ford doesn't need to put up with this crap - just wipe the slate clean and move the Michigan auto assembly jobs to Georgia. Because the auto and aircraft companies tolerated the benefit increases over the years isn't the Union's fault - it's what the system would tolerate.

Apparently, that time has passed. But keep in mind - how cheap do you want your aircraft to be?

lacarnut
09-07-2008, 10:57 PM
And who demanded those insane Benefits? The Unions, that's who! And they striked to get them!

Those dumb asses in management agreed to them. Correct me if I am wrong but it takes two to tango; a great deal of blame can be laid at the feet of management not only because of unions but because of management's piss poor performance of build quality starting in the late70's and early 80's.

OwlMBA
09-07-2008, 10:59 PM
Those dumb asses in management agreed to them. Correct me if I am wrong but it takes two to tango; a great deal of blame can be laid at the feet of management not only because of unions but because of management's piss poor performance of build quality starting in the late70's and early 80's.

Management has little choice under threat of Strike. And when you have a Cartel that fixes the cost of labor, you are doomed.

What would you say if all companies in any given industry or location met together in secret and agreed to only pay ALL of their workers minimum wage? Would that be ok?

What if all the gas stations got together and fixed the price of gas?

What if the grocery stores got together and fixed the price of food?

All of the above would be an illegal Cartel, yet the government agreed to make an exception to the law for Unions to fix the price of labor.

LogansPapa
09-07-2008, 11:00 PM
Those dumb asses in management agreed to them.

+1 :)

PoliCon
09-07-2008, 11:02 PM
Ah, I see - so there was someone, anyone - other than a starting bag boy making minimum wage at your local supermarket? BULLSHIT! A checker's minimum wage increase caused your store to invest thousands of dollars becasue............? BULLSHIT!

:p dude - I live in a ghetto. The local stores balked at the investment until the rise in minimum wage and suddenly there are fewer single mothers/high schoolers working at these stores - and talking with members of management they freely offer that increases in wages making it more cost effective to replace cashiers with self-checkouts.

PoliCon
09-07-2008, 11:07 PM
And Obama will? Maybe that success tax will fix everything. Or that "windfall profits" tax. Or that death tax. Or that small business tax. Or that increased payroll tax. Or that capital gains tax.
Sure NObama is going to change it. He's going to make illegals full blown welfare state clients with full privileges and honours up to and including voting rights.

LogansPapa
09-07-2008, 11:12 PM
dude - I live in a ghetto.

Dude - most people don't. Like a bad job - if you don't like it, leave. See how easy that is to say?;)

lacarnut
09-07-2008, 11:22 PM
Management has little choice under threat of Strike. And when you have a Cartel that fixes the cost of labor, you are doomed.

.

That is a cop out if I ever heard one. Management had a choice and they blew it because they thought that the Japs could not build a vehicle as good as them plus management started building lousy vehicles. The head knockers at the big 3 thought their dominance over the Japs would never end. Management miscalculated very badly, and they share much of the blame for the benes that workers and retirees receive. The cost of labor is NOT what is eating the auto makers alive.

OwlMBA
09-07-2008, 11:41 PM
That is a cop out if I ever heard one. Management had a choice and they blew it because they thought that the Japs could not build a vehicle as good as them plus management started building lousy vehicles. The head knockers at the big 3 thought their dominance over the Japs would never end. Management miscalculated very badly, and they share much of the blame for the benes that workers and retirees receive. The cost of labor is NOT what is eating the auto makers alive.

To be fair, management shares in the blame. They make crappy cars nobody wants built by people who dont care about their jobs. That equates to poor quality products that have little demand to begin with. Not exactly a recipe for success.

lacarnut
09-07-2008, 11:54 PM
To be fair, management shares in the blame. They make crappy cars nobody wants built by people who dont care about their jobs. That equates to poor quality products that have little demand to begin with. Not exactly a recipe for success.

Management determines the build qualities of an auto such as where the parts come from, tolerances of the exterior and interior of the car and the design of the car. Workers have no say when management puts out a butt ugly vehicle that does not sell. Unlike you, I do believe that most union auto workers do take pride in the finished product. As far as I am concerned, unions have outlived their usefulness.

justsayin
09-08-2008, 04:24 AM
Management determines the build qualities of an auto such as where the parts come from, tolerances of the exterior and interior of the car and the design of the car. Workers have no say when management puts out a butt ugly vehicle that does not sell. Unlike you, I do believe that most union auto workers do take pride in the finished product. As far as I am concerned, unions have outlived their usefulness.

Of course management shares some of the blame for the condition of the American car companies. This does not, however, mean that unions are blameless. I am in Michigan and I know a LOT of people that are/were in unions. I am sure that there are some that take pride in their work, but the vast majority of the ones I know are far more focused on getting what they can from the company while giving as little as possible back. I can safely say that I have never heard a union member talk about quality of work outside of the context of insulting non-union produced goods. Quality is meaningless when there is basically nothing that can be done if you screw up.

The stories that you hear about unions are absolutely true. People sit down after 2-3 hours work and refuse to do more because they have met their quota. Even good people (astoundingly) feel it is ok to threaten (and carry out) real violence and vandalism against people who over-perform or cross picket lines. We are talking people who in every other area of life are normal law abiding citizens.

My state is bleeding jobs in large part due to our union roots. Some like to blame NAFTA and other free trade agreements, but for the most part we arenít losing jobs to Canada or Mexico. We are losing them to Tennessee, Kentucky, and other right to work states.

I donít excuse management, but the unions have been blackmailing the auto industry into wages/benefits that are impossible to maintain. Unfortunately the choice for many in management has been bankruptcy now (due to prolonged strike) or bankruptcy later (due to out of control labor costs). Which do you pick?

PoliCon
09-08-2008, 09:47 AM
Dude - most people don't. Like a bad job - if you don't like it, leave. See how easy that is to say?;) I live here for a reason. I put my money where my mouth is practice what I preach unlike lefties.

LogansPapa
09-08-2008, 10:23 AM
As far as I am concerned, unions have outlived their usefulness.

You're starting to tick me off, old man. This is the third time I've agreed with you in this thread.;)

PoliCon
09-08-2008, 09:42 PM
You're starting to tick me off, old man. This is the third time I've agreed with you in this thread.;)
oh crap. I have to agree with you again???

Allow me to add all unions that involve employees paid directly from tax dollars should be instantly and immediately disbanded. If bureaucrats want a raise - let them apply to their employers for that raise.