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djones520
06-17-2011, 02:19 PM
Is climate change raising sea levels, as Al Gore has argued -- or are climate scientists doctoring the data?

The University of Colorado’s Sea Level Research Group decided in May to add 0.3 millimeters -- or about the thickness of a fingernail -- every year to its actual measurements of sea levels, sparking criticism from experts who called it an attempt to exaggerate the effects of global warming.

"Gatekeepers of our sea level data are manufacturing a fictitious sea level rise that is not occurring," said James M. Taylor, a lawyer who focuses on environmental issues for the Heartland Institute.

Steve Nerem, the director of the widely relied-upon research center, told FoxNews.com that his group added the 0.3 millimeters per year to the actual sea level measurements because land masses, still rebounding from the ice age, are rising and increasing the amount of water that oceans can hold.

"We have to account for the fact that the ocean basins are actually getting slightly bigger... water volume is expanding," he said, a phenomenon they call glacial isostatic adjustment (GIA).

Taylor calls it tomfoolery.

"There really is no reason to do this other than to advance a political agenda," he said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/06/17/research-center-under-fire-for-adjusted-sea-level-data/#ixzz1PYhS2P8j

Hmmm...

txradioguy
06-17-2011, 02:46 PM
Hmmm...

No way...these guys would NEVER fudge the numbers...:rolleyes:

djones520
06-18-2011, 12:33 AM
No way...these guys would NEVER fudge the numbers...:rolleyes:

Few things piss me off like fudging data. Especially when it's deliberate like this.

The AF has a major problem with it's climo data right now. Because a certain Director of AF Weather, who shall not be named, signed off on a peice of shit observing system, we have bad data being recorded and transmitted. I've seen things like erroneously measured rain fall of the scale of 6" (when we had about .5") transmitted out to the official record.

Shit like that has consequences. And this bullshit about AGW is one of them.

txradioguy
06-18-2011, 02:32 AM
Few things piss me off like fudging data. Especially when it's deliberate like this.



Correct me if I'm wrong...but false or altered weather data could have a direct and possibly negative effect on things involving the aircraft won't it?

djones520
06-18-2011, 02:36 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong...but false or altered weather data could have a direct and possibly negative effect on things involving the aircraft won't it?

It depends.

Something hugely blatant, like saying it's sky clear out, and it's really overcast at 200 feet could have impacts. A couple of years ago, when I came on shift, a mission that had originally been briefed sky clear conditions arrived at the airfield and found it below mins with fog. This happened to be a Presidential Support mission, and it got quite a bit of attention, with a few airmen getting some major ass chewings.

But reporting overcast when it's broken really won't have any issue on the flight. But repeated reports of it will have the record showing that there was more moisture in the atmopshere then there really was, which leads to the models being skewed.

The Night Owl
06-18-2011, 11:56 AM
Few things piss me off like fudging data. Especially when it's deliberate like this.

The AF has a major problem with it's climo data right now. Because a certain Director of AF Weather, who shall not be named, signed off on a peice of shit observing system, we have bad data being recorded and transmitted. I've seen things like erroneously measured rain fall of the scale of 6" (when we had about .5") transmitted out to the official record.

Shit like that has consequences. And this bullshit about AGW is one of them.

Clearly, there is some disagreement on the use of GIA in sea level measurements but to claim that deception is the intent of the adjustment is itself deception-- just the kind of tomfoolery I expect from the ignoramuses at Heartland Institute.

Novaheart
06-18-2011, 12:05 PM
Hmmm...

Isn't this squeezing the balloon? If land masses are rising, then the ocean is getting deeper relative to the land masses, right? So the sea levels, which are only relevant if measured to the dry land rather than the depth of the ocean, would not be rising, they would be falling. Which is pretty much what this guy has said:


Rise of sea levels is 'the greatest lie ever told'
The uncompromising verdict of Dr Mörner is that all this talk about the sea rising is nothing but a colossal scare story, writes Christopher Booker.
Christopher Booker6:25PM GMT 28 Mar 2009150 Comments
If one thing more than any other is used to justify proposals that the world must spend tens of trillions of dollars on combating global warming, it is the belief that we face a disastrous rise in sea levels. The Antarctic and Greenland ice caps will melt, we are told, warming oceans will expand, and the result will be catastrophe.
Although the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) only predicts a sea level rise of 59cm (17 inches) by 2100, Al Gore in his Oscar-winning film An Inconvenient Truth went much further, talking of 20 feet, and showing computer graphics of cities such as Shanghai and San Francisco half under water. We all know the graphic showing central London in similar plight. As for tiny island nations such as the Maldives and Tuvalu, as Prince Charles likes to tell us and the Archbishop of Canterbury was again parroting last week, they are due to vanish.
But if there is one scientist who knows more about sea levels than anyone else in the world it is the Swedish geologist and physicist Nils-Axel Mörner, formerly chairman of the INQUA International Commission on Sea Level Change. And the uncompromising verdict of Dr Mörner, who for 35 years has been using every known scientific method to study sea levels all over the globe, is that all this talk about the sea rising is nothing but a colossal scare story.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/5067351/Rise-of-sea-levels-is-the-greatest-lie-ever-told.html

txradioguy
06-18-2011, 12:07 PM
Clearly, there is some disagreement on the use of GIA in sea level measurements but to claim that deception is the intent of the adjustment is itself deception-- just the kind of tomfoolery I expect from the ignoramuses at Heartland Institute.


Just can't admit that the Druids who defend and perpetuate the AGW hoax are lying and cooking the books to support their bullshit can you?

The Night Owl
06-18-2011, 12:35 PM
Isn't this squeezing the balloon? If land masses are rising, then the ocean is getting deeper relative to the land masses, right? So the sea levels, which are only relevant if measured to the dry land rather than the depth of the ocean, would not be rising, they would be falling. Which is pretty much what this guy has said:


Rise of sea levels is 'the greatest lie ever told'
The uncompromising verdict of Dr Mörner is that all this talk about the sea rising is nothing but a colossal scare story, writes Christopher Booker.
Christopher Booker6:25PM GMT 28 Mar 2009150 Comments
If one thing more than any other is used to justify proposals that the world must spend tens of trillions of dollars on combating global warming, it is the belief that we face a disastrous rise in sea levels. The Antarctic and Greenland ice caps will melt, we are told, warming oceans will expand, and the result will be catastrophe.
Although the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) only predicts a sea level rise of 59cm (17 inches) by 2100, Al Gore in his Oscar-winning film An Inconvenient Truth went much further, talking of 20 feet, and showing computer graphics of cities such as Shanghai and San Francisco half under water. We all know the graphic showing central London in similar plight. As for tiny island nations such as the Maldives and Tuvalu, as Prince Charles likes to tell us and the Archbishop of Canterbury was again parroting last week, they are due to vanish.
But if there is one scientist who knows more about sea levels than anyone else in the world it is the Swedish geologist and physicist Nils-Axel Mörner, formerly chairman of the INQUA International Commission on Sea Level Change. And the uncompromising verdict of Dr Mörner, who for 35 years has been using every known scientific method to study sea levels all over the globe, is that all this talk about the sea rising is nothing but a colossal scare story.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/5067351/Rise-of-sea-levels-is-the-greatest-lie-ever-told.html

Oh, God! Not the dowsing guy! I think we can discount his opinions on water outright.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nils-Axel_M%C3%B6rner#Views_on_dowsing

AmPat
06-18-2011, 12:37 PM
How does anyone pretend that the ocean level can be accurately measured? :confused:

fettpett
06-18-2011, 02:01 PM
How does anyone pretend that the ocean level can be accurately measured? :confused:

http://www.sidereel.com/Gilligans_Island/season-2/episode-6

:D:D

AmPat
06-18-2011, 02:56 PM
http://www.sidereel.com/Gilligans_Island/season-2/episode-6

:D:D
Funny.

A "Measuring stick" on a gigantic body of water that has tides, currents, surf, etc. I don't see how it is possible. If you take one fish from the pool, doesn't the level go down? What about when it rains? Do you measure it at low tide and high tide. I think this is scientific crap.:confused:;)

Novaheart
06-18-2011, 05:30 PM
Oh, God! Not the dowsing guy! I think we can discount his opinions on water outright.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nils-Axel_M%C3%B6rner#Views_on_dowsing

I'm pretty sure that my last surgeon believes that Mohammed was the prophet of God, and the one before that believes that Jesus Christ walked on water and magically healed the blind. Both of them were really good surgeons.

Given that I have no reason to give any weight to your opinion or the scheming of the government of the Maldives, then unless you can actually prove that the ocean levels are rising significantly and in a straight line, then I will stick to those who say it isn't happening.

The reason why Dr Mörner, formerly a Stockholm professor, is so certain that these claims about sea level rise are 100 per cent wrong is that they are all based on computer model predictions, whereas his findings are based on "going into the field to observe what is actually happening in the real world".


Or look for different sources:


Climate scientists withdraw journal claims of rising sea levels
Study claimed in 2009 that sea levels would rise by up to 82cm by the end of century – but the report's author now says true estimate is still unknown


Scientists have been forced to withdraw a study on projected sea level rise due to global warming after finding mistakes that undermined the findings.


Note, any time a variation of 100% or more is "predicted" your BULLSHIT! alarm should go off:

Martin Vermeer of the Helsinki University of Technology, Finland and Stefan Rahmstorf of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany published a study in December that projected a rise of 0.75m to 1.9m by 2100.


In a statement the authors of the paper said: "Since publication of our paper we have become aware of two mistakes which impact the detailed estimation of future sea level rise. This means that we can no longer draw firm conclusions regarding 21st century sea level rise from this study without further work.

Translation: We're full of shit, and just wanted to get a free trip to the UN and the lecture circuit.

The Night Owl
06-18-2011, 11:45 PM
I'm pretty sure that my last surgeon believes that Mohammed was the prophet of God, and the one before that believes that Jesus Christ walked on water and magically healed the blind. Both of them were really good surgeons.

Dowsing is not analogous to believing in a god. The claim that dowsing can be used to find water is demonstrably false and so anyone who claims it works is either insane or dishonest. It's like claiming that, for example, homeopathy works. I wouldn't discount the opinion of a doctor who claims a god exists but I would discount the opinion of a doctor who claims homeopathy works... and I hope you would too.


Given that I have no reason to give any weight to your opinion or the scheming of the government of the Maldives, then unless you can actually prove that the ocean levels are rising significantly and in a straight line, then I will stick to those who say it isn't happening.

I have never asked you or anyone else here to give weight to my opinions.

Zathras
06-19-2011, 06:31 AM
How does anyone pretend that the ocean level can be accurately measured? :confused:

The same charlatans that believe in AGW and their mind numbed idiot followers are those people.

Tecate
06-19-2011, 06:53 AM
I live over 600 ft above sea level and find seashells in the soil of my backyard all the time. From this I can only conclude that sea levels have actually fallen quite a bit over many thousands of years.

djones520
06-19-2011, 06:59 AM
I live over 600 ft above sea level and find seashells in the soil of my backyard all the time. From this I can only conclude that sea levels have actually fallen quite a bit over many thousands of years.

Texas was a sea during the Jurassic.

Tecate
06-19-2011, 07:04 AM
Texas was a sea during the Jurassic.
I know. I'm simply poking fun at all this nonsense and hysteria as if the planet is going to die because a grasshopper farted. This planet has been through massive changes without any intervention from man.

fettpett
06-19-2011, 09:39 AM
Dowsing is not analogous to believing in a god. The claim that dowsing can be used to find water is demonstrably false and so anyone who claims it works is either insane or dishonest. It's like claiming that, for example, homeopathy works. I wouldn't discount the opinion of a doctor who claims a god exists but I would discount the opinion of a doctor who claims homeopathy works... and I hope you would too.


tell that the Millions of Doctors that use it, quite effectively to treat various aliments around the globe, you don't really understand what it is

The Night Owl
06-19-2011, 11:19 AM
tell that the Millions of Doctors that use it, quite effectively to treat various aliments around the globe, you don't really understand what it is

As of this year:


There's scant evidence that homeopathy provides anything beyond a placebo effect (even critics agree the treatments are safe and don't cause allergic reactions). Many homeopathy studies are small, of poor quality and funded by homeopathic manufacturers.

http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-homeopathy-20110615,0,1914162.story

Novaheart
06-19-2011, 11:41 AM
Dowsing is not analogous to believing in a god.

Martin Luther said it was a violation of the First Commandment.

There is nothing to prove that betting rituals (like blowing on dice) are effective either, but perfectly rational people who are as intelligent as anyone wasting money in such a fashion can be expected to be, do it all the time.

Novaheart
06-19-2011, 11:45 AM
As of this year:



http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-homeopathy-20110615,0,1914162.story

I am on a very strict diet. My pleasures of food have been reduced. I found a delicious bread with no salt, some good peanut butter with very little salt, and a strawberry preserves that compliments the two magnificently. And yet, I call my mother to tell her I am coming over (I keep the makings at her house because I'm a pig when it comes to bread and peanut butter) so she can make my sandwich and put it in a plastic bag.

The sandwich tastes better when my mom makes it. I can't prove that, but it true.

Oh, and diet 7 up tastes better in a real glass instead of a plastic one, and coffee is better when sipped out of thin china cups instead of mugs.

The Night Owl
06-19-2011, 12:05 PM
Martin Luther said it was a violation of the First Commandment.

There is nothing to prove that betting rituals (like blowing on dice) are effective either, but perfectly rational people who are as intelligent as anyone wasting money in such a fashion can be expected to be, do it all the time.

You're missing the point. Nils-Axel Mörner's position on dowsing is not rooted in superstition. He claims there is theoretical support for it and yet he resists challenges to prove it works. What this tells me is that he is either insane or dishonest.

The Night Owl
06-19-2011, 12:07 PM
I am on a very strict diet. My pleasures of food have been reduced. I found a delicious bread with no salt, some good peanut butter with very little salt, and a strawberry preserves that compliments the two magnificently. And yet, I call my mother to tell her I am coming over (I keep the makings at her house because I'm a pig when it comes to bread and peanut butter) so she can make my sandwich and put it in a plastic bag.

The sandwich tastes better when my mom makes it. I can't prove that, but it true.

Oh, and diet 7 up tastes better in a real glass instead of a plastic one, and coffee is better when sipped out of thin china cups instead of mugs.

What you're describing sounds a bit like placebo effect... which is the extent of what homeopathic "remedies" provide. As long as you don't claim it's more than placebo effect, you're fine.

fettpett
06-19-2011, 12:14 PM
As of this year:



http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-homeopathy-20110615,0,1914162.story


Dr. Iris Bell of the University of Arizona College of Medicine in Tucson, one of the few homeopathy researchers to get federal funding, says the highest-quality trials — double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled studies — have had both negative and positive results. Her own work on fibromyalgia has shown individualized homeopathy did work better than the placebo.


homeopathy has received little attention until recently, there are many other natural methods of healing that are better for a person have have much longer lasting affects than Western Medicine can provide.

The Night Owl
06-19-2011, 12:41 PM
Dr. Iris Bell of the University of Arizona College of Medicine in Tucson, one of the few homeopathy researchers to get federal funding, says the highest-quality trials — double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled studies — have had both negative and positive results. Her own work on fibromyalgia has shown individualized homeopathy did work better than the placebo.

Fibromyalgia is a fake disease and so it's no wonder that fake remedies ease it.

Now, about this quack...


...

Donald Marcus from Baylor did an excellent job of presenting a review of the clinical evidence for homeopathy, accurately conveying that the evidence is largely negative. Iris Bell, a protege of Andrew Weil from the University of Arizona, had the job of distorting and cherry picking the clinical evidence to make is seem as if it supports homeopathy. Her strategy was typical, standard fare for CAM proponents.

First, she argued that we should accept clinical observations as reliable evidence. These are open-label or uncontrolled case reports, essentially the clinical experience of homeopaths. This is all a fancy way of saying anecdotal evidence, which over a century of scientific medicine has taught us is completely unreliable. I think anecdotes are worse than unreliable – they tend to lead us to conclusions we wish to be true rather than those that are true, and they can cause a false sense of confidence in the unwary.

It is not a surprise that homeopaths think their treatments work. As unreliable as anecdotal experience is, it is especially so if it confirms the beliefs of an ideological group desperate for recognition and legitimacy, and further a group dedicated to one treatment modality. (I don’t trust the experience of cardiac surgeons with cardiac surgery.) And to put one more nail in this coffin, I especially don’t trust the subjective experience of a group of practitioners that decidedly lack a scientific tradition.

...

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/my-day-with-the-homeopaths-part-ii

Novaheart
06-19-2011, 01:18 PM
You're missing the point. Nils-Axel Mörner's position on dowsing is not rooted in superstition. He claims there is theoretical support for it and yet he resists challenges to prove it works. What this tells me is that he is either insane or dishonest.

You aren't disproving what this man has said about sea levels. You are simply seizing on an academic eccentricity to discredit him.

Dr. Shockley argued that the higher rate of reproduction among the less intelligent was having a dysgenic effect, and that a drop in average intelligence would ultimately lead to a decline in civilization. He made a scientific case to support that. I'm pretty sure that you disagree with that position, whether your opinion is based in science or not. Either way, it doesn't alter the fact that Dr. Shockley is a Noble Prize winning scientist who co-invented the transistor and was a founding father of Silicon Valley.

Zathras
06-19-2011, 04:37 PM
You aren't disproving what this man has said about sea levels. You are simply seizing on an academic eccentricity to discredit him.

Dr. Shockley argued that the higher rate of reproduction among the less intelligent was having a dysgenic effect, and that a drop in average intelligence would ultimately lead to a decline in civilization. He made a scientific case to support that. I'm pretty sure that you disagree with that position, whether your opinion is based in science or not. Either way, it doesn't alter the fact that Dr. Shockley is a Noble Prize winning scientist who co-invented the transistor and was a founding father of Silicon Valley.

Of course TNO hates Dr. Shockley. That's because he's not a brainwashed follower of the AGW bullshit like TNO is.

txradioguy
06-20-2011, 03:41 AM
Texas was a sea during the Jurassic.

The Permian Sea to be exact. Hence the reason we have the oil and gas deposits that we do.

txradioguy
06-20-2011, 03:41 AM
Of course TNO hates Dr. Shockley. That's because he's not a brainwashed follower of the AGW bullshit like TNO is.

He also despises Dr. Roy Spencer too.

The Night Owl
06-20-2011, 10:33 AM
You aren't disproving what this man has said about sea levels. You are simply seizing on an academic eccentricity to discredit him.

Dr. Shockley argued that the higher rate of reproduction among the less intelligent was having a dysgenic effect, and that a drop in average intelligence would ultimately lead to a decline in civilization. He made a scientific case to support that. I'm pretty sure that you disagree with that position, whether your opinion is based in science or not. Either way, it doesn't alter the fact that Dr. Shockley is a Noble Prize winning scientist who co-invented the transistor and was a founding father of Silicon Valley.

Well, how far back do you want to go? Do you want to talk about how Isaac Newton experimented with alchemy and other nonsense?

The fact of the matter is that there is no reason for someone living in this age to believe in dowsing. And yet Mr. Mörner does... or at least claims to.

Novaheart
06-20-2011, 10:35 AM
Well, how far back do you want to go? Do you want to talk about how Isaac Newton experimented with alchemy and other nonsense?

The fact of the matter is that there is no reason for someone living in this age to believe in dowsing. And yet Mr. Mörner does... or at least claims to.

There is always reason to believe that there is a reason why people do what they do.

fettpett
06-20-2011, 11:31 AM
Well, how far back do you want to go? Do you want to talk about how Isaac Newton experimented with alchemy and other nonsense?

The fact of the matter is that there is no reason for someone living in this age to believe in dowsing. And yet Mr. Mörner does... or at least claims to.

just shows much much of an arrogant prick you are. All those centuries of experimenting with alchemy lead to chemistry and biology and other forms of science. The same goes for the the traditional medicine that lead to western/modern medical understanding of the human body and how things work. Dowsing lead to research in using other forms of technology to search for underground bodies of liquid.

The Night Owl
06-20-2011, 12:21 PM
just shows much much of an arrogant prick you are. All those centuries of experimenting with alchemy lead to chemistry and biology and other forms of science. The same goes for the the traditional medicine that lead to western/modern medical understanding of the human body and how things work. Dowsing lead to research in using other forms of technology to search for underground bodies of liquid.

My point exactly. It's easy to see why traditions such as alchemy endured in world awash in nonsense. It's not easy to see why anyone would want to pick it up today because we have something much better-- chemistry. And the same goes for dowsing. If you practice dowsing, you are a crank.

txradioguy
06-20-2011, 12:34 PM
There is always reason to believe that there is a reason why people do what they do.

Except when it comes to the hoax known as AGW...then nothing is to be questioned...just accepted.

fettpett
06-20-2011, 09:51 PM
My point exactly. It's easy to see why traditions such as alchemy endured in world awash in nonsense. It's not easy to see why anyone would want to pick it up today because we have something much better-- chemistry. And the same goes for dowsing. If you practice dowsing, you are a crank.

no, you completely missed my point and proved it.