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Rockntractor
07-30-2011, 11:13 PM
July 30, 2011
Multiculturalism Revisited
By Michael Curtis

The brutal murders in and around Oslo on July 22, 2011 by Anders Behring Breivik, the self-declared commander for the Knights Templar of Europe, are to be rightfully condemned, and due punishment must be accorded for his horrible crime. But his massacre of 76 innocent people and his 1,500-page polemical diatribe -- his European Declaration of Independence, with its obsession with multiculturalism and the threat caused by the Islamic presence in Europe -- must not be allowed to prevent a genuine, rational discussion of a complex contemporary problem.

Western countries are perplexed by the problem of the current immigration of large numbers of individuals coming from different cultures, and the tension caused by their reluctance to assimilate and integrate into the larger society. To debate the issues of immigration and the likelihood of groups becoming participants in the larger society is not racist behavior, but rather a necessary consequence of real problems.

Aware of the potential positive value of immigrants, governments along with other agencies have subscribed to a set of policies and values that has become known as multiculturalism. They seek to diminish the difficulties the newcomers face: lack of respect, verbal abuse, and discrimination in general (and especially in housing and employment).

However desirable some of the efforts have been, both for immigrants and for their new society, it is evident that Western policies of multiculturalism have drawbacks as well as benefits. Those policies encounter a number of intellectual and political problems. They aim at accommodating different religious, cultural, and ethnic traditions within a society, but societies require a common culture. The great 14th-century Arab historian, Ibn Khaldun, was aware of this when he wrote that civilization arose only when there was solidarity. Today, this idea of solidarity, and commitment to the common culture and to the basic structures and values of democratic countries, is being challenged by identity politics and by advocacy of diversity.
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http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/07/multiculturalism_revisited.html

Wei Wu Wei
07-30-2011, 11:45 PM
That's like saying anti-Semitic Islamic extremists, with their obsessive hatred for Jews, cannot prevent genuine, rational discussion of Israel's policies and actions.

crazy talk

Rockntractor
07-30-2011, 11:54 PM
That's like saying anti-Semitic Islamic extremists, with their obsessive hatred for Jews, cannot prevent genuine, rational discussion of Israel's policies and actions.

crazy talk

Crazy yes, you didn't even read the article, you glanced at it and posted.

Apache
07-31-2011, 12:14 AM
That's like saying anti-Semitic Islamic extremists, with their obsessive hatred for Jews, cannot prevent genuine, rational discussion of Israel's policies and actions.

crazy talk

If you have something intelligent to add... do so. Otherwise :stfu1:

Wei Wu Wei
07-31-2011, 12:23 AM
Multiculturalism should be encouraged, but yes there are limits. Islam should be allowed, it should be welcomed, it should be celebrated and respected. However, domestic violence should not. Female genital mutilation should not. Violence against anyone should not.

Laws should not be passed specifically to try to hinder people from practicing their religions or their cultural ways, but if their practices violate already existing, secular-based laws (like laws against domestic violence or child abuse) then they should be punished no different than anyone else.

This is shady, and if we really get into it, some might argue that multiculturalism and the societal push towards "tolerance" only serves to seperate people into groups, where their goal is to "not get too close" so they don't step on anyone's toes. Some people believe that having a more unified, national culture is better for the country, and in some cases it is. Then again, America has always been a society of diverse cultures.

Multiculturalism isn't 100% good, there should be a limit to "tolerance", but we should still respect other people and other cultures, and allow them their freedom gaurunteed by the constitution to be who they are and worship how they choose.

It's a balancing act, and different people are going to find different ways to find a balance.

I think a foolish tendecy for modern liberals is that they obsess over being "politically correct" and "tolerant", they cannot see any negatives to multiculturalism and think it is the Highest Goal for the Left.

Wei Wu Wei
07-31-2011, 12:25 AM
I hate homophobia and islamophobia and xenophobia, but I actually find myself agreeing more with intelligent rational-minded conservatives than I do with young liberals when it comes to multiculturalism. It's a good thing but it's not all sunshine and rainbows.

Apache
07-31-2011, 12:43 AM
I hate homophobia and islamophobia and xenophobia,....

Funny! You don't even know what those words mean...:rolleyes:

Sonnabend
07-31-2011, 08:35 AM
Multiculturalism should be encouragedNo, it should not. Our laws, our way of life. Adapt, assimilate or leave. You came here, live as we do, under our laws and our customs. We do not adapt to suit you, you adapt to suit us

If not, the airport is close by.

No to sharia laws, no to burkas, no to favouritism, no to this bullshit of " racism"..Islam is a RELIGION, not a race. Our way or the highway. Choose.


, but yes there are limits. Islam should be allowed, it should be welcomed, it should be celebrated and respected. Hard to celebrate a third century violent death cult with anything other than contempt.


However, domestic violence should not. Female genital mutilation should not. Violence against anyone should not. Yet they bring their wars and their grudges and their vendettas to our shores. Violence against anyone? Muslims are inherently violent and intolerant.


Laws should not be passed specifically to try to hinder people from practicing their religions or their cultural ways, I dont give a rats shit about their culture. Live by OUR culture or piss off.


but if their practices violate already existing, secular-based laws (like laws against domestic violence or child abuse) then they should be punished no different than anyone else.Better idea. Deport them that day to whatever fourth world shithole they came from.


This is shady, and if we really get into it, some might argue that multiculturalism and the societal push towards "tolerance" only serves to seperate people into groupsIt does. Multiculturalism means I have to sit and smile at some woman who wants to wear a burka and then when challenged by a cop for a speeding fine, screams "racist", and "tolerate" her ways.

Like fuck I will.


, where their goal is to "not get too close" so they don't step on anyone's toes. Some people believe that having a more unified, national culture is better for the country, and in some cases it is. Then again, America has always been a society of diverse cultures.If you do not see yourself as American first, last and always, then there is the problem right there. One loyalty, one goal, one President, one law.


Multiculturalism isn't 100% good, there should be a limit to "tolerance"No tolerance at all. Come here and live according to our laws and our customs or LEAVE.


, but we should still respect other people and other cultures, and allow them their freedom gaurunteed by the constitution to be who they are and worship how they choose. They same freedoms they want removed or curtailed because it "offends them". I dont give a fuck if they are offended.

102 dead over this

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/img/IslamicMilitancy10.jpeg

http://www.middleeastfacts.cm/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons/mohammed-cartoon-Jyllands-Posten-3.jpgthis is the face of multiculturalism

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons-muslim-reaction/Mohammed-Cartoon-Reaction-London-001.jpg


It's a balancing act, and different people are going to find different ways to find a balance. http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/181006war.jpg

Religion of peace..MY ASS..........

Sonnabend
07-31-2011, 08:45 AM
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/img/IslamicMilitancy32.jpeg

Wei Wu Wei
07-31-2011, 01:48 PM
No, it should not. Our laws, our way of life. Adapt, assimilate or leave. You came here, live as we do, under our laws and our customs. We do not adapt to suit you, you adapt to suit us

If not, the airport is close by.

No to sharia laws, no to burkas, no to favouritism, no to this bullshit of " racism"..Islam is a RELIGION, not a race. Our way or the highway. Choose.

Hard to celebrate a third century violent death cult with anything other than contempt.

Yet they bring their wars and their grudges and their vendettas to our shores. Violence against anyone? Muslims are inherently violent and intolerant.

I dont give a rats shit about their culture. Live by OUR culture or piss off.

Better idea. Deport them that day to whatever fourth world shithole they came from.

It does. Multiculturalism means I have to sit and smile at some woman who wants to wear a burka and then when challenged by a cop for a speeding fine, screams "racist", and "tolerate" her ways.

Like fuck I will.

If you do not see yourself as American first, last and always, then there is the problem right there. One loyalty, one goal, one President, one law.

No tolerance at all. Come here and live according to our laws and our customs or LEAVE.

They same freedoms they want removed or curtailed because it "offends them". I dont give a fuck if they are offended.

102 dead over this

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/img/IslamicMilitancy10.jpeg

http://www.middleeastfacts.cm/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons/mohammed-cartoon-Jyllands-Posten-3.jpgthis is the face of multiculturalism

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/Gallery/albums/mohammed-cartoons-muslim-reaction/Mohammed-Cartoon-Reaction-London-001.jpg

http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/181006war.jpg

Religion of peace..MY ASS..........

Wow you sure sound like a sane, rational person. Not at all like a mouth-foaming oversensitive islamophobe. :rolleyes:



It does. Multiculturalism means I have to sit and smile at some woman who wants to wear a burka and then when challenged by a cop for a speeding fine, screams "racist", and "tolerate" her ways.

Like fuck I will.

It doesn't mean that you have to smile at anyone, you are talking nonsense. It just means that if a woman chooses to wear a burka she has the right to do so. No one should treat her with violence or try to force her to not wear what she wants.

Just like if someone decides to wear a yarmulke or dress in amish clothing, you can't force them out of the community.

No one is saying you have to like her, no one is saying you have to smile at her or even talk to her, it just means you have to respect her space and her religious choices the same way you want your own to be respected.

Zathras
07-31-2011, 01:57 PM
Wow you sure sound like a sane, rational person. Not at all like a mouth-foaming oversensitive islamophobe. :rolleyes:



It doesn't mean that you have to smile at anyone, you are talking nonsense. It just means that if a woman chooses to wear a burka she has the right to do so. No one should treat her with violence or try to force her to not wear what she wants.

Just like if someone decides to wear a yarmulke or dress in amish clothing, you can't force them out of the community.

No one is saying you have to like her, no one is saying you have to smile at her or even talk to her, it just means you have to respect her space and her religious choices the same way you want your own to be respected.

Aaaaannnddd once again Wee Wee swings and misses by a country mile as Sonna's post goes right over his head.

Sonnabend
08-01-2011, 01:24 AM
Wow you sure sound like a sane, rational person. Not at all like a mouth-foaming oversensitive islamophobe. Ah that nice meme again "Islamophobe"..at least i am glad you didnt say racist, because I have coffee here and dont want to have to clean my keyboard.

My assessment of your idiocy just went up four notches. You went from idiot to imbecile.

Well done.


It doesn't mean that you have to smile at anyone, you are talking nonsense. It just means that if a woman chooses to wear a burka she has the right to do so.
She has no such "right" and never has had. Bullshit. Like your meme of "having a right to a visa"...neither "right" exists in reality. I would LOVE to see that, go on a plan e without a visa samnd then when you get there demand to be let in and tyell them you have a right to a visa

They'll either deport you or imprison you, probably both since you are an illegal immigrant.

Not when that means she evades or disobeys laws. One stupid Muslim woman almost smashed into me today. She reversed and said she didnt see me...why? That stupid burka wrecked her sight area and that stupid bitch didnt see me because that idiotic piece of garb got in her way. She has no "right" to wear that, especially if she is behind the wheel.

Didnt speak any English either, didn't read the sign that said ONE WAY.

Another example is the burka wearing woman who walks into a shop and hands over a credit card. The man says show me your face and she says "I have a right to wear this"..he hands the purchase and the card back and says either show me your face or leave

She calls him a racist and an islamophobe.,.the fact that she isnt the person whose name is on the card isnt mentioned and the fact she is attempting fraud doesnt occur to her..after all, its her culture to wear that.

Our laws, our culture, our way, or leave. Our way, or the airport.


Just like if someone decides to wear a yarmulke or dress in amish clothing, you can't force them out of the community.A yarmulke doesnt obstruct line of sight or identity. A dress, you fool, is clothes and if she doesnt wear it she can and will be arrested for indecent exposure.

Bad choice.

NJCardFan
08-01-2011, 08:58 AM
Multiculturalism should be encouraged, but yes there are limits. Islam should be allowed, it should be welcomed, it should be celebrated and respected. However, domestic violence should not. Female genital mutilation should not. Violence against anyone should not.

Laws should not be passed specifically to try to hinder people from practicing their religions or their cultural ways, but if their practices violate already existing, secular-based laws (like laws against domestic violence or child abuse) then they should be punished no different than anyone else.

This is shady, and if we really get into it, some might argue that multiculturalism and the societal push towards "tolerance" only serves to seperate people into groups, where their goal is to "not get too close" so they don't step on anyone's toes. Some people believe that having a more unified, national culture is better for the country, and in some cases it is. Then again, America has always been a society of diverse cultures.

Multiculturalism isn't 100% good, there should be a limit to "tolerance", but we should still respect other people and other cultures, and allow them their freedom gaurunteed by the constitution to be who they are and worship how they choose.

It's a balancing act, and different people are going to find different ways to find a balance.

I think a foolish tendecy for modern liberals is that they obsess over being "politically correct" and "tolerant", they cannot see any negatives to multiculturalism and think it is the Highest Goal for the Left.

You are an idiot. Multiculturalism is idiocy. The reason why early 20th Century immigrants were able to prosper in this country is because they came here and assimilated. Yes, they lived in their own little communities(Chinatown, Little Italy, etc) but other wise, they assimilated into American society. Sure there were bumps in the road(Irish Need Not apply) but those bumps were overcome. In short, they basically left their culture in Europe, Russia, China, Japan, etc. and became Americans. Multiculturalism encourages not only bringing your home culture here but putting that culture ahead of this country. This only leads to disaster.

NJCardFan
08-01-2011, 09:04 AM
It doesn't mean that you have to smile at anyone, you are talking nonsense. It just means that if a woman chooses to wear a burka she has the right to do so.
She has no such "right" and never has had

Actually wee wee is right. She does have the right to wear a burka. However, she must remove said burka for the purposes of being photographed for a drivers license or any other means of identification. Meaning if I owned a place of business, I would have the right to refuse service to anyone who doesn't adhere to my "No Covered Faces" policy. Especially if I ran a bank or some other business where large amounts of money is around.

noonwitch
08-01-2011, 10:15 AM
Actually wee wee is right. She does have the right to wear a burka. However, she must remove said burka for the purposes of being photographed for a drivers license or any other means of identification. Meaning if I owned a place of business, I would have the right to refuse service to anyone who doesn't adhere to my "No Covered Faces" policy. Especially if I ran a bank or some other business where large amounts of money is around.



She also doesn't have the right to drive while wearing a burka, if it blocks her ability to see (and how can it not impair vision?).


I think part of the problem here is that everyone is defining the term multiculturalism in different ways. It all depends on to which extent immigrants assimilate into the culture and what parts of their heritage they decide to keep. Most groups, including the early waves of arab/muslim immigrants have assimilated, for the most part. They've kept some things, like the hijab or the halal diet, but the women vote and drive, the kids go to public school, and so on. It's the newer waves, who are coming from places where
a more radical version of Islam is practiced (E. Africa, Iran, Afganistan), who cling to things like burkas and such. I see burkas in Hamtramck, among the immigrants from Somalia, more than I see it in Dearborn, where the people came mostly from Syria and Lebanon in the 80s.

There are people like my grandpa, who totally assimilated and never spoke german again once he came here. If you didn't know, you would never guess he wasn't born in the US.

NJCardFan
08-01-2011, 10:23 AM
There are people like my grandpa, who totally assimilated and never spoke german again once he came here. If you didn't know, you would never guess he wasn't born in the US.

Same goes for my ex. Her and her family came here in the early 60's from Italy and she didn't say her first English sentence until she went to school here(no bi-lingual classes then) and it was "May I sharpen my pencil?" Now, her and her brother have no accent whatsoever.

Lager
08-01-2011, 08:22 PM
...some might argue that multiculturalism and the societal push towards "tolerance" only serves to seperate people into groups, where their goal is to "not get too close" so they don't step on anyone's toes. Some people believe that having a more unified, national culture is better for the country...

I think a foolish tendecy for modern liberals is that they obsess over being "politically correct" and "tolerant", they cannot see any negatives to multiculturalism and think it is the Highest Goal for the Left.

I couldn't agree more. :D