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View Full Version : Florida To Save $20 million/Yr by Privatizing Prisons



megimoo
08-16-2011, 06:13 PM
Florida is moving forward with a timetable to turn over prison operations in the southern half of the state to a private contractor, after the Legislature approved the plan designed to save millions of dollars..... The change is not without controversy..... There are competing claims as to whether privatizing prisons saves taxpayer dollars, and the Florida Police Benevolent Association which represents Florida's unionized prison guards filed a lawsuit in July to block the handover..... The process is moving fast. Tuesday is the last day for the private operators to tour the prisons up for bidding. The bids are...

\http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/crime/fl-florida-prisons-privatization-20110815,0,7143639.story

Hawkgirl
08-16-2011, 06:29 PM
The unions don't have much clout down here...if Florida wants to do this...they will.

Jackson Memorial hospital which is all union has had two or three massive lay offs of union members....Florida is a right to work state.

megimoo
08-16-2011, 06:39 PM
The unions don't have much clout down here...if Florida wants to do this...they will.

Jackson Memorial hospital which is all union has had two or three massive lay offs of union members....Florida is a right to work state.

The unions have no one else to blame but themselves...They became too greedy and backed the wrong horse...Now that their party's spending has bankrupt America, their chickens have come home to roost...

Novaheart
08-16-2011, 09:01 PM
The unions have no one else to blame but themselves...They became too greedy and backed the wrong horse...Now that their party's spending has bankrupt America, their chickens have come home to roost...

If that's what you think this is about, you are defective. Prisons are big money, building them and running them. This is a way to give state money to private corporations and if he had his way, Scott would sell them the schools too.

Starbuck
08-16-2011, 09:17 PM
........and if he had his way, Scott would sell them the schools too.

NOW you're talkin'!:)

megimoo
08-16-2011, 09:28 PM
If that's what you think this is about, you are defective. Prisons are big money, building them and running them. This is a way to give state money to private corporations and if he had his way, Scott would sell them the schools too.

You, of all people, should never refer to a normal person as defective,your very lifestyle is defective...

I was addressing the unions opposition to privatization...The unions have made the prisons their own little piggy bank by controlling the hiring and the day to day running of most of them through their unions......Private prison operation has proven itself in places like Texas and have saved that state lots of money....

noonwitch
08-17-2011, 09:42 AM
Private prisons are not a good idea.


When profits and saving money become the bottom line for operations, safety of inmates and more importantly, the COs, will become a problem. I basically think that the only people really qualified to run prisons are law enforcement agencies, which means the government.

megimoo
08-17-2011, 10:54 AM
Private prisons are not a good idea.


When profits and saving money become the bottom line for operations, safety of inmates and more importantly, the COs, will become a problem. I basically think that the only people really qualified to run prisons are law enforcement agencies, which means the government.

" The safety of the inmates ", are you daft ? What about the safety of society ?How has the state become so expert in the management of prisons ?

When have you become an expert on the subject of prisons ? A prison is a social cage designed to keep very dangerous people away from the,by and large, peaceful herds ...Keeping the cage doors locked and the prisoners alive is about the only requirement of the people who run them..Guarding a prison is a dangerous, thankless task given the ingenious nature of man, especially when incarcerated . There is no special talents required of those who stand watch over prisoners other than constant vigilance..

When a bureaucracy erupts over a given job it becomes self Perpetuating - and self protective. Prisons are no exception . The idea that the state is the only qualified agent capable of running a prison is a fallacy, ..
States by their very nature foster perpetuating bureaucracy and once formed are fiercely self protective.

.....Private agency's are in business to be efficient enabling them to profit and expands .The ones that specialize prison management tend to be, by far more efficient than state managed institutions .

They tend to be profit driven,well trained at prisoner control by avoiding dangerous conditions and expert in applying the latest methods in the psychology of understanding the nature of incarcerated men .

Novaheart
08-17-2011, 11:27 AM
" The safety of the inmates ", are you daft ? What about the safety of society ?How has the state become so expert in the management of prisons ?

Civilized societies have prisons, primitive societies kill, maim, or exile criminals. Prisons were born and evolved as a function of the state, to protect the ruling class and evolved to help protect society as a whole from the criminal element. In the 1800's the notion of rehabilitation was born, and this is where the issue of private prison operators comes in.

The State Of Florida is having a measurable degree of success with certain programs designed to transition inmates prior to release and assist them in staying out after release. This is done because the state has an interest in reducing recidivism. The state has an interest in reducing recidivism because the state has to pay to house, feed, and deal with inmates.

A private company which gets paid by the inmate has no interest in reducing recidivism. It has no interest in seeing inmate released early for good behavior. It gets more money for more inmates. And these are huge corporations.

So now you have huge corporations which have an interest in having the most people possible in jail. A judge in Pennsylvania just got 28 years for sending CHILDREN to private jails in exchange for kickbacks. How long until these private prisons corrupt the entire political, justice, and law enforcement systems?

noonwitch
08-17-2011, 11:45 AM
" The safety of the inmates ", are you daft ? What about the safety of society ?How has the state become so expert in the management of prisons ?

When have you become an expert on the subject of prisons ? A prison is a social cage designed to keep very dangerous people away from the,by and large, peaceful herds ...Keeping the cage doors locked and the prisoners alive is about the only requirement of the people who run them..Guarding a prison is a dangerous, thankless task given the ingenious nature of man, especially when incarcerated . There is no special talents required of those who stand watch over prisoners other than constant vigilance..

When a bureaucracy erupts over a given job it becomes self Perpetuating - and self protective. Prisons are no exception . The idea that the state is the only qualified agent capable of running a prison is a fallacy, ..
States by their very nature foster perpetuating bureaucracy and once formed are fiercely self protective.

.....Private agency's are in business to be efficient enabling them to profit and expands .The ones that specialize prison management tend to be, by far more efficient than state managed institutions .

They tend to be profit driven,well trained at prisoner control by avoiding dangerous conditions and expert in applying the latest methods in the psychology of understanding the nature of incarcerated men .


I'd like to hear what our friend from Jersey has to say about it, since he's probably the only poster here who is an expert on prisons. I think he might really appreciate your statement that no special talents are required of those who stand watch over prisoners other than constant vigilance.

I never worked in the adult system, but I worked as a delinquency worker with some pretty bad-ass teenagers from Detroit. I know a lot about how juvie prisons are run. A lot of them are run by private agencies, but they are run by charitable agencies or foundations, not by profit-making corporations.

Wei Wu Wei
08-17-2011, 02:29 PM
It's a bad idea to make putting people in prison a profitable enterprise. The prison lobby is a very strong lobby and they will create inhumane conditions for prisoners, and pass harsh laws and policies that guarantee recividism rates are high and they have a steady flow of prisoners to line their wallets with.

This is an extremely dangerous idea.

malloc
08-17-2011, 05:28 PM
It's a bad idea to make putting people in prison a profitable enterprise. The prison lobby is a very strong lobby and they will create inhumane conditions for prisoners, and pass harsh laws and policies that guarantee recividism rates are high and they have a steady flow of prisoners to line their wallets with.

This is an extremely dangerous idea.

When these predictions fail to come to pass, like every other ominous prediction from the left, will you return to eat your words, or will you skulk away with that chip still firmly seated on your shoulder?

djones520
08-17-2011, 05:59 PM
I'd like to hear what our friend from Jersey has to say about it, since he's probably the only poster here who is an expert on prisons. I think he might really appreciate your statement that no special talents are required of those who stand watch over prisoners other than constant vigilance.

I never worked in the adult system, but I worked as a delinquency worker with some pretty bad-ass teenagers from Detroit. I know a lot about how juvie prisons are run. A lot of them are run by private agencies, but they are run by charitable agencies or foundations, not by profit-making corporations.

You'll be waiting for a while. He's left da house, unlikely to return.

megimoo
08-17-2011, 07:43 PM
When these predictions fail to come to pass, like every other ominous prediction from the left, will you return to eat your words, or will you skulk away with that chip still firmly seated on your shoulder?

It's always edifying to post something like this and watch the lefties agonize for the hardened criminals in the slammer over their definition of Criminal Social Justice...Nothing separates a law and order conservative from a knee jerker than those poor misunderstood criminals..

If one of our alleged brethren on the left were to be spend a few days in general population in one of our
more notorious lockups perhaps some of their sensitivities would rub off. After a brief encounter with bubba the love sponge even a partially competent Progressive would see the light........

If an adult male rapist abducts a small child,violates him or her,murders her then hides the body the average American male with children of his own,would ,in the past,be howling in rage and demand his life in just retribution and society of that day,on the whole,would agree.

Something has changed in America since the Vietnam war ? Was it the fear of war that made our young men pacifists or was it plain ,old fashioned Cowardice ?...A earlier generation of Americas young men lined up at the door of recruiting stations to go to war for their country...Was the Vietnam war somehow different,
were the men of that age braver ?

We as a nation have become more cowardly,more 'sensitive' as in chicken to apply our laws to heinous crimes that demand the death penalty.....The notion of correction as in change for to those who chose to take the easy way of living by stealing and murdering people can be changes has proven false in far too many cases...

I believe it all started with the British concept of 'fair play'..England became a nation of wimps,unlike the Greeks,Hellenes who played to the death in some cases,to protect the feeling of those school boys,some of whom, weren't quite 'up to snuff' playing cricket and rugby..

In order to be all inclusive these boys were given special dispensation to compete at a lower level...
And still be counted among the regular,more robust, boys..

John Dillinger and Charles Arthur Floyd of history past were hardened criminals without any remorse for their murders .Todays criminal is different...They are more hardened,more gang oriented,much more vicious in their murderous rages..To attempt reform of todays hard core killers is an exercise in futility but when has that ever deterred a member our liberal quasi brethren ?

Big Guy
08-17-2011, 08:58 PM
Too bad NJCardfan has left, I was not aware of that. :(

I started working for the Tennessee Department of Correction in 1996 and I am still there. In Tennessee there are both Private and State run prisons. CCA does a great job with the offenders in their stead and they do it cheaper than state run prisons.

CCA prisons only house the most healthy and cooperative inmates for the state. I'll GUESS somewhere around 2,000 inmates.

When an inmate becomes seriously ill, or un manageable they are transferred to a state run prison.

It takes anywhere from 2 to 4 Officers to work a maximum security housing unit with 32 inmates, which CCA does not have in Tennessee.

It only takes 1 Officer to work a minimum security housing unit with 200 inmates, this is what CCA does.

I think a balance of state and private run prisons is the solution and it saves taxpayer dollars.

State run prisons are grossly mis-managed and the Peter Principle rules.

I will be happy to answer any questions to the best of my ability, but I do not pretend to be someone who knows ALL about prisons. But I am knowledgeable.

Novaheart
08-17-2011, 09:29 PM
CCA prisons only house the most healthy and cooperative inmates for the state. I'll GUESS somewhere around 2,000 inmates. .

Some people would say that that is how public school vouchers will work too. The voucher-fed private school will skim off the best, brightest, most able, and best parented students, leaving the public schools to be mostly Special Ed and Reform Schools.

Big Guy
08-17-2011, 09:33 PM
Some people would say that that is how public school vouchers will work too. The voucher-fed private school will skim off the best, brightest, most able, and best parented students, leaving the public schools to be mostly Special Ed and Reform Schools.

What does that have to do with the current thread? I thought it was about privatizing prisons in Florida.:confused:

Novaheart
08-17-2011, 09:36 PM
It takes anywhere from 2 to 4 Officers to work a maximum security housing unit with 32 inmates, which CCA does not have in Tennessee.

It only takes 1 Officer to work a minimum security housing unit with 200 inmates, this is what CCA does.

I think a balance of state and private run prisons is the solution and it saves taxpayer dollars.

OK, here's my observation from as close as watching Lock-Up on TV can get me. Like many occupations where physical ability and fitness is part of qualification, having a range of duty stations which allows a person to age or be differently-abled (sorry for the PC but being deliberately broad here) to be assigned to lighter duty either as a reward for many years in the harder work section, or as an accommodation.

Like it or not, in today's society, we don't want states or private corporations to only hire males six foot or taller former Marines or MMA athletes to work for ten years, and then be dismissed so a younger batch of bulls can be the bulls in the prisons. Our society requires that these relatively good jobs go to men and women, short and tall, thin and chunky within a functional range, and young and old within a functional range. Not everyone wants to "put in my twenny" and get out. There are people who want and need to continue working and in a complete DOC system there are a range of jobs from hazardous to light duty to accommodate age and ability.

Make sense as an objection?

lacarnut
08-17-2011, 09:52 PM
OK, here's my observation from as close as watching Lock-Up on TV can get me. Like many occupations where physical ability and fitness is part of qualification, having a range of duty stations which allows a person to age or be differently-abled (sorry for the PC but being deliberately broad here) to be assigned to lighter duty either as a reward for many years in the harder work section, or as an accommodation.

Like it or not, in today's society, we don't want states or private corporations to only hire males six foot or taller former Marines or MMA athletes to work for ten years, and then be dismissed so a younger batch of bulls can be the bulls in the prisons. Our society requires that these relatively good jobs go to men and women, short and tall, thin and chunky within a functional range, and young and old within a functional range. Not everyone wants to "put in my twenny" and get out. There are people who want and need to continue working and in a complete DOC system there are a range of jobs from hazardous to light duty to accommodate age and ability.

Make sense as an objection?

You are a dumb ass who gets it's info from TV & reading. No experience at all but a know it all just like most of your liberal buddies.

States and cities are looking for way to cut spending. Privatizing prisons has merits such as retaining the best qualified employees rather employment based on race and gender. Also, it saves these entities money.

Novaheart
08-17-2011, 09:55 PM
You are a dumb ass who gets it's info from TV & reading.

I forgot that you are an expert on everything. I humbly defer to your knowledge of the inner working of prisons. How long were you in ?

Big Guy
08-17-2011, 10:04 PM
Every state has different qualifications and different rules as to where certain Officers are assigned. All I can do is tell you what Tennessee requires.

1. Must be at least 18 yrs of age.
2. Valid Tennessee driver license.
3. High School diploma or GED (Can get a waiver)
4. No felony convictions.
5. No Domestic assault convictions.
6. Be able and willing to work any assignment and shift.
7. Be willing to work holidays.

In my experience it is safer but not easier to work a maximum security housing unit than a minimum security housing unit. Assuming the Officer(s) working the housing unit isnt a total idiot that is constantly stirring up a bunch of crap but being abusive and or disrespectful to the inmates.

The fact that one is over weight (ME), small in stature, MMA fighter, can't fight, male, female, or age 65-70 does not matter.

Personaly I like to work a Max housing unit with a female partner, the inmates tend to cooperate more.

Novaheart
08-17-2011, 10:12 PM
Every state has different qualifications and different rules as to where certain Officers are assigned. All I can do is tell you what Tennessee requires.

1. Must be at least 18 yrs of age.
2. Valid Tennessee driver license.
3. High School diploma or GED (Can get a waiver)
4. No felony convictions.
5. No Domestic assault convictions.
6. Be able and willing to work any assignment and shift.
7. Be willing to work holidays.

In my experience it is safer but not easier to work a maximum security housing unit than a minimum security housing unit. Assuming the Officer(s) working the housing unit isnt a total idiot that is constantly stirring up a bunch of crap but being abusive and or disrespectful to the inmates.

The fact that one is over weight (ME), small in stature, MMA fighter, can't fight, male, female, or age 65-70 does not matter.

Personaly I like to work a Max housing unit with a female partner, the inmates tend to cooperate more.


Well, again, I have only been as close as watching Lock Up on TV but what I see in those segments is disgraceful. The amount of crap that the prison employees apparently have to put up with from the convicts is not what I call prison reform.

malloc
08-17-2011, 10:22 PM
Okay resident libtards, listen up, school's in session.

Claim 1: Prisoner safety will be compromised if prisons are privatized.

Rebuttal:

Not going to happen. A private prison company won't make money by lowering safety standards or cutting corners. (That's always the liberal idiot argument "They'll cut corners!! WAAAAH!)". This is complete B.S.! Lawsuits, investigations, riots, and fewer prisoners due to a higher murder or death rate aren't going to make money, and the companies know this. The companies know for a fact that what they'll save by lowering standards will be dwarfed by what they'll lose if they do. The private companies want the prisoners happy, healthy, and most importantly, compliant. If prisoners don't feel threatened and feel taken care of, compliance, and thus smoother operation, is achievable.

Claim 2: State Prison Guards are going to lose their jobs

Rebuttal

Not a problem. Who do you think are going to be the most eligible candidates for positions at the privately run prisons? Do you think the private prison is going to go hire a bunch of migrant farm hands, fry cooks, and vagrants? Of course not! The private prison makes money by hiring people with experience who can start producing immediately with minimal training. However, those who got the job because they are the governor's nephew's girlfriend's roommate will get weeded out.

Claim 3: Private prisons will fire older guards in favor of younger guards with out a pension and with no public union/government regulations to protect them!

Hardly. Sure, some will get let go, but others who were once maybe prized for their brawn will be prized for their brains after 15, 20 or 25 years of experience. Those who make the grade will be promoted to management, those who don't will be cut, and that is the necessary and proper way.

Claim 4: Some insidious "Prison Lobby" is going to make sure everyone gets put in Jail! :eek:

Fucking idiot Wei saying idiot things again! If everyone is in jail who the hell is going to pay the taxes that pay the State that pay the private prison dumb ass? What kind of electorate is going to stand idly by while some "Prison Lobby Robber Baron" herds everyone up? Furthermore, if the electorate is concerned about that, why not flat rate the contract and force companies to bid, presumably based on criminal justice statistics, creating a system in which the prison companies make more money if there are fewer prisoners? You are special stupid Wei.

Here's why the private prisons will function more efficiently, thus saving Florida $20 Million

Private systems have, and leverage, bidirectional communication and evaluation systems. In the micro, this is a feedback loop. It means that guards, administrators, managers, etc., all have their input considered when laying out operations, policies and procedures. It also means that these procedures and operations can be rapidly evaluated for viability and functionality, and then tweaked, scrapped, or updated. Government systems are a top down approach, where someone who hasn't ever stepped foot in a prison writes the regulations that run the prison systems, and these regulations are laced with ideology, pandering, and special interests. Then, the regulations, budget, and bosses change with each election cycle, or perhaps each fiscal year. That creates a system which hemorrhages dollars, constantly lowers standards, and is much more prone to failure.

Big Guy
08-17-2011, 10:24 PM
Well, again, I have only been as close as watching Lock Up on TV but what I see in those segments is disgraceful. The amount of crap that the prison employees apparently have to put up with from the convicts is not what I call prison reform.

I totally agree with you on this one;

I have had feces, urine, blood, and other bodily fluids thrown on me, I have been stabbed twice, and I don't have a clue how many times I have been punched and kicked. All this with very little and at times no reprocussions for the inmate.

There was one incident where I was struck several times in the head and back before I was able to defend my self. I punched the inmate one time in the head which knocked him out. I was sent to Inernal Affairs and all they wanted to know why I struck the inmate so hard. I was being accused of excessive force for defending my self. (Unfounded)

The inmate was given 30 days punitive time, I recieved several stiches to the back of my head and was grilled by "The squad".

Big Guy
08-17-2011, 10:31 PM
Here's why the private prisons will function more efficiently, thus saving Florida $20 Million

Private systems have, and leverage, bidirectional communication and evaluation systems. In the micro, this is a feedback loop. It means that guards, administrators, managers, etc., all have their input considered when laying out operations, policies and procedures. It also means that these procedures and operations can be rapidly evaluated for viability and functionality, and then tweaked, scrapped, or updated. Government systems are a top down approach, where someone who hasn't ever stepped foot in a prison writes the regulations that run the prison systems, and these regulations are laced with ideology, pandering, and special interests. Then, the regulations, budget, and bosses change with each election cycle, or perhaps each fiscal year. That creates a system which hemorrhages dollars, constantly lowers standards, and is much more prone to failure.

Dead on correct.

MrsSmith
08-17-2011, 10:37 PM
Some people would say that that is how public school vouchers will work too. The voucher-fed private school will skim off the best, brightest, most able, and best parented students, leaving the public schools to be mostly Special Ed and Reform Schools.

In point of fact, the parents that care enough to obtain vouchers will likely resemble the parents that care enough to send kids to inexpensive private schools. Some will be those intent on getting the best possible education for their gifted children, but many others will be parents that don't wish to put their kids on Ritalin, or parents of other "problem" children. I've seen many cases like this through the years of having kids in private schools. Only the most expensive private schools avoid the problem kids.


The State Of Florida is having a measurable degree of success with certain programs designed to transition inmates prior to release and assist them in staying out after release. This is done because the state has an interest in reducing recidivism. The state has an interest in reducing recidivism because the state has to pay to house, feed, and deal with inmates.

This is an excellent reason to have private corporations running the prisons...as private companies, they can contract with Christian counseling services for their inmates, thereby guaranteeing access to the programs with the very lowest recidivism rates, and saving the state the money it would cost to defend these contracts from ACLU lawsuits.

malloc
08-18-2011, 01:34 AM
Some people would say that that is how public school vouchers will work too. The voucher-fed private school will skim off the best, brightest, most able, and best parented students, leaving the public schools to be mostly Special Ed and Reform Schools.

In point of fact, the parents that care enough to obtain vouchers will likely resemble the parents that care enough to send kids to inexpensive private schools. Some will be those intent on getting the best possible education for their gifted children, but many others will be parents that don't wish to put their kids on Ritalin, or parents of other "problem" children. I've seen many cases like this through the years of having kids in private schools. Only the most expensive private schools avoid the problem kids.

Yeah Nova, this hypothesis about what might become of voucher programs is pretty absurd, and it's the exact opposite of the truth in many areas. My older daughter has moderate learning and behavioral disabilities. She has bi-polar disorder, and a speech impediment. As you can imagine, I'm a pretty strict dad, and she doesn't lack for discipline, but there's just some impulses she can't control. Like severe frustration when she doesn't understand something. The public school simply disciplined her for these problems, sending her to sit for hours in the principal's office while she fell further and further behind. After confronting the principal, superintendent, and a few members of the school board, I was told by their Special Education Director that the public school, "Doesn't have the proper facilities and programs available to help her." Then I was setup in a voucher program and she now attends a private school with the "proper facilities and programs". Her grades and attitude have since improved remarkably.

enslaved1
08-18-2011, 06:13 PM
A fast two bits from someone who just started at a privately run state prison, I'll get back with more, don't worry. This prison had an escape a year ago, and since then has been under the microscope from state agencies, the press and the public. Darndest thing is a recent audit of all the state prisons found that the other, state run ones had all the same issues that led to the escape. Ours has been busting it's butt to fix the various holes that led to the escape. What is the state doing? Where is the state's motivation? A corporation has to balance profit with results, otherwise they lose business. Are there holes? Of course, just like any other system, but IMNSHO, it's a lot easier to close those holes with money on the line than with re-election.

Big Guy
08-18-2011, 07:09 PM
The answer to the issue is to have a balance between State and Private run prisons. State run prisons need to revamp the Civil Service rules so the "Higher Ups" are held to a higher standard and are held accountable for the piss poor decisions they make.

Question for buisiness owners;
If you had a manager that consistantly hired underqualified people, had several serious safety violations, and a turn over rate of more than 60% what would you do? Keep in mind the training cost for every new employee is over $10,000.

Private prisons will fire them, the State asks them how to fix the problem and promotes them.

Novaheart
08-18-2011, 08:54 PM
This is an excellent reason to have private corporations running the prisons...as private companies, they can contract with Christian counseling services for their inmates, thereby guaranteeing access to the programs with the very lowest recidivism rates, and saving the state the money it would cost to defend these contracts from ACLU lawsuits.

The state already allows Christian assistance ministries to have access to the prisons. The private prisons would be agents of the state, as such they couldn't do anything that the state prisons can't do. We're not selling the prisons and the inmate to the corporation, yet, we're subcontracting certain aspects of running the prison to them.

RobJohnson
08-22-2011, 05:59 AM
Private prisons are not a good idea.


When profits and saving money become the bottom line for operations, safety of inmates and more importantly, the COs, will become a problem. I basically think that the only people really qualified to run prisons are law enforcement agencies, which means the government.

We have private prisons in my state no problem. The wages are the same, just no union dues, due to prevailing wage laws.

It's really helped the local economy.

If your state does not want the jobs, we will take them. :D

enslaved1
08-22-2011, 10:14 PM
We have private prisons in my state no problem. The wages are the same, just no union dues, due to prevailing wage laws.

It's really helped the local economy.

If your state does not want the jobs, we will take them. :D

Amen to that. Side note, we had a union rep standing by the entrance for a couple of days, handing out pamphlets trying to get people to sign up and bring the union in. When I asked the more experienced folks about it, they all said the union had tried several times to get in over the last couple of years, and failed miserably every time.