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djones520
09-14-2011, 04:40 AM
Take note of the thread location before anything else. This is the lounge, so lets not let things get nasty in here.

Anyways, it seems everytime I turn a corner I see a new "conservative atheist" in here, and I was just curious how many of us there really were posting here.

I included options for our liberal members. Didn't want them to feel left out.

marv
09-14-2011, 10:20 AM
Thanks for the thread, dj.......

I have every respect for those (including my devout Southern Baptist wife of over thirty years) who accept the concept of a creator, and/or some other form of higher power, and I have no qualm with any religion that does not wish me harm. Personally, my opinion is that the world would be better off with a universal practice of Judeo-Christian morality. I've long noticed how many configurations of higher powers have appeared and evolved over the millennia.

Digressing a bit, the concept of dark energy (http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/) shows that we can learn and evolve. Eventually, we'll learn that there is no need for a higher being because the Universe is very mechanical. But we can only hope to survive until then.

Novaheart
09-14-2011, 11:17 AM
Take note of the thread location before anything else. This is the lounge, so lets not let things get nasty in here.

Anyways, it seems everytime I turn a corner I see a new "conservative atheist" in here, and I was just curious how many of us there really were posting here.

I included options for our liberal members. Didn't want them to feel left out.

Does Buddhism relate to a higher power or a higher plane of existence?

marv
09-14-2011, 11:51 AM
Does Buddhism relate to a higher power or a higher plane of existence?

If you're not sure, you can learn about Buddhism here (http://www.philtar.ac.uk/encyclopedia/)...and other religions as well.

lacarnut
09-14-2011, 12:24 PM
Take note of the thread location before anything else. This is the lounge, so lets not let things get nasty in here.

Anyways, it seems everytime I turn a corner I see a new "conservative atheist" in here, and I was just curious how many of us there really were posting here.

I included options for our liberal members. Didn't want them to feel left out.

Every-time I turn the corner I see an new a God fearing conservative member. Facts are the overwhelming majority of citizens in the US believe in a higher power. Looks like you are in the minority. You can contact your atheist buddies to vote but it will still not change that fact. Note, I respect the fact that others are atheist but don't try to slap me in the face with it.

marv
09-14-2011, 12:57 PM
Every-time I turn the corner I see an new a God fearing conservative member. Facts are the overwhelming majority of citizens in the US believe in a higher power. Looks like you are in the minority. You can contact your atheist buddies to vote but it will still not change that fact. Note, I respect the fact that others are atheist but don't try to slap me in the face with it.

I've found that Atheists have a belief system and wish to proselytize it, while atheists simply have formed an opinion of live and let live.

It's the conservatives that are in the majority whether they are God-fearing or not.

lacarnut
09-14-2011, 01:57 PM
I've found that Atheists have a belief system and wish to proselytize it, while atheists simply have formed an opinion of live and let live.

It's the conservatives that are in the majority whether they are God-fearing or not.

How do we define a conservative. My definition is probably different than yours. I think everyone agrees that fiscal responsibility is a conservative value. How many individuals and politicians practice what they preach? Not many by the enormous debt individuals and politicians have racked up.

Secondly, this live and let live has not bode well for our current society. You and I are approximately the same age. Old farts. When we were kids, we went out and played all day and our parents did not worry about us. We did not lock our house in the daytime. What has happened? This live and let live by faux conservatives and others has brought us to moral decay. So called conservatives that do not have a problem with gay marriage and legalizing drugs are leading us down the wrong path. Just another dagger in the demise of this country in my opinion.

Thirdly, we have so called conservatives on this board that despise people of religion, and jump out of the bushes to deride religious beliefs at every opportunity. That is not what I call live and let live. I am not here to convert anyone but if you want to bash Christians, I will not remain silent. In other words, I do not have an agenda like some do here.

Starbuck
09-14-2011, 02:10 PM
My belief system wasn't listed.

I'm a conservative (I guess) and I believe in a collective power, but not a higher one.

God exists in us and through us, but not as an external anthropomorphic omnipotence. We are to God as the waves are to the ocean. One does not exist without the other.

lacarnut
09-14-2011, 02:39 PM
My belief system wasn't listed.

I'm a conservative (I guess) and I believe in a collective power, but not a higher one.

God exists in us and through us, but not as an external anthropomorphic omnipotence. We are to God as the waves are to the ocean. One does not exist without the other.

Pigeonholing everyone into a box does not bode well for our ultimate goal of defeating Obama and the Democrats. However, that seems to be a high priority for some atheists, RINO's and libertarians.

Rockntractor
09-14-2011, 02:50 PM
Too political for Lounge, moving.

marv
09-14-2011, 03:09 PM
I guess it's time to post some of my opinions......
I want fiscal responsibility from both my government as well as my neighbors,
I'm opposed to abortion because I accept that life begins at conception, but I can accept voluntary abortion in cases of rape and incest, but not as a matter of convience,
the Ten Commandments can and should be posted in courthouses as an excellent expression of acceptable moral behavior,
the mention of God is appropriate on coins, scrip, in the Pledge of Allegience and in the National Anthem,
I'm an atheist because I've seen no need for a creator of the Universe,
I disagree with gay marraige, and feel that homosexuality is not a natural state,
I accept the taking of life as in the death penalty or military action (I've taken life when in uniform), but not indiscriminately without need or reason,
I believe in having an open mind, but not so open that the wind blows through,
...and I guess a host of others.
Conservatism is best discussed in the context of specific questions and opinions.

Rockntractor
09-14-2011, 03:30 PM
Conservatism is best discussed in the context of specific questions and opinions.

I tend to agree with you a hyphenated conservative is like a hyphenated American, either you are one or you aren't. No need for qualifiers.

NJCardFan
09-14-2011, 03:35 PM
I've seen too many miracles in my day to not believe there is someone or something pulling the strings.

Odysseus
09-14-2011, 04:11 PM
You need a category for "conservative/liberal and don't know one way or another."

lacarnut
09-14-2011, 04:22 PM
I've seen too many miracles in my day to not believe there is someone or something pulling the strings.

Same here. Experience is the best teacher. Plus no one can say, I had an atheist experience. Maybe DJ can enlighten us.

Articulate_Ape
09-14-2011, 05:00 PM
My belief system wasn't listed.

I'm a conservative (I guess) and I believe in a collective power, but not a higher one.

God exists in us and through us, but not as an external anthropomorphic omnipotence. We are to God as the waves are to the ocean. One does not exist without the other.

While that pretty closely describes my belief system, I would say that even your metaphor suggests outside influence since waves, while present on the surface of the ocean, are the result of the wind, the moon, and temperature and not so much the ocean itself. I believe that god is what is and is the very stuff that comprises all matter and space/time.

Wei Wu Wei
09-14-2011, 05:12 PM
My belief system wasn't listed.

I'm a conservative (I guess) and I believe in a collective power, but not a higher one.

God exists in us and through us, but not as an external anthropomorphic omnipotence. We are to God as the waves are to the ocean. One does not exist without the other.

I like this view and this is the sort of God I am drawn to. I tend to view this collective power as Christian Holy Spirit.

Wei Wu Wei
09-14-2011, 05:16 PM
You need a category for "conservative/liberal and don't know one way or another."

I hope this isn't getting too nitpicky for this thread, but I think "not knowing" falls into the same category as "not believing". For example: I don't know if you are wearing a blue shirt. So, do I believe that you are wearing a blue shirt? No.

Rockntractor
09-14-2011, 05:21 PM
I hope this isn't getting too nitpicky for this thread, but I think "not knowing" falls into the same category as "not believing". For example: I don't know if you are wearing a blue shirt. So, do I believe that you are wearing a blue shirt? No.

I don't know if you are thinking so I believe you have no brain. Yeah, I see how that works!:)

Starbuck
09-14-2011, 05:26 PM
I don't know if you are thinking so I believe you have no brain. Yeah, I see how that works!:)

:D

Hawkgirl
09-14-2011, 05:28 PM
I have personally witnessed the Power of God, both positive and negative. I have no doubt that God exists...or that he's listening. Whenever I've spoken to God, he's listened...and it wasn't always a good thing. My personal belief is MY belief because of my experiences.

Apocalypse
09-14-2011, 06:56 PM
I'll come out and say it. I'm Atheist. I know many think the only true measure of a true conservative is a belief in a higher power.

For all of you who have known me here for some time. Do any of you think I don't measure up on the conservative stick?

marv earlier said "As long as you believe in a higher power."

What about Wicca or Leviathan - Satanism

I have known people who practice both over the years. One lady I knew who practiced Wicca was in many respect more a conservative then I am.

Rockntractor
09-14-2011, 07:13 PM
I'll come out and say it. I'm Atheist. I know many think the only true measure of a true conservative is a belief in a higher power.

For all of you who have known me here for some time. Do any of you think I don't measure up on the conservative stick?

marv earlier said "As long as you believe in a higher power."

What about Wicca or Leviathan - Satanism

I have known people who practice both over the years. One lady I knew who practiced Wicca was in many respect more a conservative then I am.

No one here is a 100% pure conservative it is an ideal that can be combined with your religious beliefs but doesn't have to be, just like liberalism. We are all products of our experience and what we have been taught.
Too me conservatism is more basic simple common sense than anything.
No one at this time can either prove or disprove the existence of God, we are all in the same boat when you get down to it.

Odysseus
09-14-2011, 09:46 PM
I hope this isn't getting too nitpicky for this thread, but I think "not knowing" falls into the same category as "not believing". For example: I don't know if you are wearing a blue shirt. So, do I believe that you are wearing a blue shirt? No.
But do you disbelieve that I'm wearing one? You don't know either way, and cannot categorically say that I am wearing a blue shirt or not until you confirm it empirically. You do not have enough information to determine the color of my shirt (at least, I hope that you don't. Now get away from my window before I call the cops).

I like this view and this is the sort of God I am drawn to. I tend to view this collective power as Christian Holy Spirit.

I always thought that you were just drawn to collective power.

noworries
09-14-2011, 09:56 PM
I really think their is a higher power and the baby is proof to me. I have also see many things to show me their is someone greater than me

Wei Wu Wei
09-15-2011, 12:25 AM
But do you disbelieve that I'm wearing one? You don't know either way, and cannot categorically say that I am wearing a blue shirt or not until you confirm it empirically. You do not have enough information to determine the color of my shirt (at least, I hope that you don't. Now get away from my window before I call the cops).

nonbelief isn't belief of the negative. I don't believe that you are wearing a blue shirt (that is nonbelief), but I also don't believe that you are not wearing blue shirt either (that is belief in the negative). I can say that it's more likely that you are not wearing a blue shirt, even if I cannot determine the exact color of your shirt.



I always thought that you were just drawn to collective power.

You usually seem very eager to misrepresent my ideas.

RobJohnson
09-15-2011, 02:53 AM
Every-time I turn the corner I see an new a God fearing conservative member. Facts are the overwhelming majority of citizens in the US believe in a higher power. Looks like you are in the minority. You can contact your atheist buddies to vote but it will still not change that fact. Note, I respect the fact that others are atheist but don't try to slap me in the face with it.

Well said.

I know of other athiests here that never mention it.

RobJohnson
09-15-2011, 03:47 AM
I have never touched You,
But I feel You.
I have never heard You
But I listen to You
You created me, Oh Lord!

(From Jesus Daily for Facebook)

RobJohnson
09-15-2011, 03:48 AM
I have personally witnessed the Power of God, both positive and negative. I have no doubt that God exists...or that he's listening. Whenever I've spoken to God, he's listened...and it wasn't always a good thing. My personal belief is MY belief because of my experiences.

I can't see gravity, but I know it's there! :)

DumbAss Tanker
09-15-2011, 09:42 AM
None of the above. Conservative with no claim to know whether there is or isn't a God or Gods.

marv
09-15-2011, 10:18 AM
Schrodinger's cat-in-a-box thought experiment (http://www.quantum-theories.com/theories/schrodingers-cat-in-the-box-experiment.php) (proposed in 1935} is a good example of questioning whether or not there is a God. In the thought experiment, the cat is either dead or alive. There is either a God, or there isn't. Contridictory opinions cannot exist.

Theist: I believe the cat must be alive...
Agnostic: I don't know if the cat is alive or dead...
Atheist: I believe the cat must be dead...
atheist: open the box and find out...

Wei Wu Wei
09-15-2011, 11:51 AM
Schrodinger's cat-in-a-box thought experiment (http://www.quantum-theories.com/theories/schrodingers-cat-in-the-box-experiment.php) (proposed in 1935} is a good example of questioning whether or not there is a God. In the thought experiment, the cat is either dead or alive. There is either a God, or there isn't. Contridictory opinions cannot exist.

Not necessarily. For example:

There could be a God that is beyond the realm of what exists. In this sense, all of existence could simply be a subsection of God.

Existence can non-existence could be two mutually opposed sides of one whole (which is God). For example, heads and tails are mutually exclusive aspects of one whole coin. Positive and Negative are mutually exclusive poles of a magnet, and so on. God could be the embodiment of both existence and non-existence. In which case, the category of "existence" would not apply to God anymore than you could say a magnet is positive or a coin is heads.

The term "God" could just be a placeholder for something that cannot be conceptualized at all. What we refer to when we say "God" may be something that escapes symbols and language entirely, meaning any categories with definitions is necessarily limiting and therefore an improper definition of God.

If we look at reality as being comprised of different "layers", something could be said to exist and non exist at the same time. For example, we could say in terms of physical material reality, "The United States of America" doesn't exist, because that only designates a name and a symbolic organization of laws, rules, debts, agreements, and other things that lack physical reality. However, on the symbolic level, The USA very much does exist, and the fact that physical animals and material goods behave accordingly testify to this fact. In this sense, the USA both exists and does not exist, at the same time, but at different "levels".

There are some more I'm sure but you get my point.

In fact, the point of that cat in a box experiment is that before someone observes the cat, it must simultaneously exist and not-exist at the same time. You'll find weird things like this a lot in the realm of quantum physics.

Some particles are said to exist and non-exist, other single particles are said to exist in multiple locations simultaneously, others are said to exist in the form of pure potentiality, with it's existence not yet defined. This is science, and it involves the building blocks of reality.


Theist: I believe the cat must be alive...
Agnostic: I don't know if the cat is alive or dead...
Atheist: I believe the cat must be dead...
atheist: open the box and find out...

I think basically speaking all atheists (small a) are agnostics.

It's more like:

Theist: I believe the cat is alive.
Agnostic: I don't know if the cat is alive or dead.
atheist: I do not believe the cat is alive.
Atheist: I believe the cat is dead.

There is no opening the box here.

Odysseus
09-15-2011, 04:38 PM
nonbelief isn't belief of the negative. I don't believe that you are wearing a blue shirt (that is nonbelief), but I also don't believe that you are not wearing blue shirt either (that is belief in the negative). I can say that it's more likely that you are not wearing a blue shirt, even if I cannot determine the exact color of your shirt.
Given the entire spectrum of colors that a shirt may be, the odds are that I am not wearing a blue shirt, but that only works if you assume that there is a similar spectrum of belief in God or disbelief in God. It's a 50/50 coin toss, rather than a roll of the dice. Either there is a God, or there isn't, and the choices are yes, no or don't know, rather than a shirt that might be blue, or red, yellow, green, white, black, purple or some variation or combination of the same.


You usually seem very eager to misrepresent my ideas.
It's hard not to misrepresent your ideas, since they vary from minute to minute. When asked to define the difference between Marxism, communism and socialism, you were incapable of providing a concrete answer, but simply rambled on. Ultimately, you are a worshipper of power, like most leftists, and the specifics are less important to you than the control that you seek.

fettpett
09-15-2011, 05:52 PM
I think basically speaking all atheists (small a) are agnostics.

It's more like:

Theist: I believe the cat is alive.
Agnostic: I don't know if the cat is alive or dead.
atheist: I do not believe the cat is alive.
Atheist: I believe the cat is dead.

There is no opening the box here.

no, it would be more like

Antitheist: I believe the cat is dead

Starbuck
09-15-2011, 08:37 PM
......... In the thought experiment, the cat is either dead or alive. There is either a God, or there isn't. Contridictory opinions cannot exist..........

But for many of us our perception of God is so far removed from what a Christian would recognize that the question becomes meaningless. Truly meaningless. Telling me that I must either believe or not becomes just a word game. A Gotcha Game.

Do you still beat your wife? Answer yes or no, please. That sort of thing.

Hawkgirl
09-15-2011, 08:41 PM
Many athiests start praying when they learn they have a terminal disease.....


.....just sayin'.

djones520
09-15-2011, 10:34 PM
It's interesting to see where this thread has gone. I know all the conservative atheist members of this board haven't voted yet, but there are some names there that I didn't know. Overall more then I expected so far.

ABC in Georgia
09-15-2011, 10:52 PM
Happy to have voted in this poll.

Am proud to be a non-hyphenated, God-fearing, flag-waving, gun-owning, Tea Party member, ULTRA-conservative, naturalized AMERICAN!

Did I leave anything out? :D

I believe in the Death Penalty, water-boarding, am 99.9% against abortion, unless it imperils the very life of the mother, and voting with photo IDs only. In fact if I had my way, only half-joking here ... I would insist on an IQ test for all potential voters.

No idea what the issues are facing your community, state, and heaven help us, the country, know nothing about the candidates and their positions on said issues?

No vote! :p :)

~ ABC

marv
09-15-2011, 11:24 PM
But for many of us our perception of God is so far removed from what a Christian would recognize that the question becomes meaningless. Truly meaningless.Gods can be as real as Jesus or as abstract as Gaia.



Telling me that I must either believe or not becomes just a word game.The mind is the ultimate source of freedom. No one can make you believe anything you chose not to.

Starbuck
09-15-2011, 11:50 PM
Gods can be as real as Jesus or as abstract as Gaia.


The mind is the ultimate source of freedom. No one can make you believe anything you chose not to.

All true. But the question is whether I believe in God.

A better question, I think is, "Do you have a God?"

See, if I'm asked, "Do you believe in God?", the enquirer has predefined (without intending to) God. He is asking if I have the same perception of God as him. And I usually don't. So my answer is no. And Lordy, I would NEVER answer, "No, not the same one you do."

But if I am asked (or ask someone else), "Do you have a God?", it makes a much more interesting conversation, because both parties are made aware that they may define their own God and swap ideas.

We could bat this around forever, I guess, but I feel like I'm hijacking the thread, so I'll stop.

Thanx:)

djones520
09-15-2011, 11:54 PM
All true. But the question is whether I believe in God.

A better question, I think is, "Do you have a God?"

See, if I'm asked, "Do you believe in God?", the enquirer has predefined (without intending to) God. He is asking if I have the same perception of God as him. And I usually don't. So my answer is no. And Lordy, I would NEVER answer, "No, not the same one you do."

But if I am asked (or ask someone else), "Do you have a God?", it makes a much more interesting conversation, because both parties are made aware that they may define their own God and swap ideas.

We could bat this around forever, I guess, but I feel like I'm hijacking the thread, so I'll stop.

Thanx:)

Well your point falls in the bounds of the original question. While I understand the Judeo-Christian idea of God will be the dominant belief here, I made the point to not specify a single belief. Just whether or not you believe in a higher power.

lacarnut
09-16-2011, 12:19 AM
Many athiests start praying when they learn they have a terminal disease.....


.....just sayin'.

Very true. Plus working in a hospital environment, I would consider you an expert on the subject unlike the person who posted this poll.

djones520
09-16-2011, 12:23 AM
Very true. Plus working in a hospital environment, I would consider you an expert on the subject unlike the person who posted this poll.

Why are you always so eager to pick a fight? There is one reason I posted this poll.

I was curious how many other members of this site where atheists. No other reason. I've seen several members mention it over the last couple months that I never suspected, and I was curious if there were others.

Not one thing I have posted has in any way inferred that I thought there was a majority, that I think your beliefs are inferior to mine, or anything like that. So stop trying to act like I'm pissing in your wheaties. :rolleyes:

Now, I'm going to go back to ignoring you. I've made it clear what this is about now, so stop trying to derail this topic.

lacarnut
09-16-2011, 01:22 AM
Many athiests start praying when they learn they have a terminal disease.....


.....just sayin'.

No one has ever disputed that fact. So, I am a believer. Those that do not believe, have mercy on their souls.

RobJohnson
09-16-2011, 02:34 AM
It's interesting to see where this thread has gone. I know all the conservative atheist members of this board haven't voted yet, but there are some names there that I didn't know. Overall more then I expected so far.

I'm glad you are happy.

RobJohnson
09-16-2011, 02:47 AM
Very true. Plus working in a hospital environment, I would consider you an expert on the subject unlike the person who posted this poll.

I have friends ask me to put them in touch with clergy when a family member is dying. I'm not a Pastor but have had some training that allows God to use me in many different ways. I also pray for my hospice patients, their families & the hospice doctor in town. Not one of these families have turned down my offer of prayers when I have asked them "do you mind if I pray for your mother/father/etc.....in fact they are quite shocked and often tear up and say "thank you."

Look at how many people started to seek God after 9-11. Churches were full of those seeking comfort.

djones520
09-16-2011, 02:50 AM
I have friends ask me to put them in touch with clergy when a family member is dying. I'm not a Pastor but have had some training that allows God to use me in many different ways. I also pray for my hospice patients, their families & the hospice doctor in town. Not one of these families have turned down my offer of prayers when I have asked them "do you mind if I pray for your mother/father/etc.....in fact they are quite shocked and often tear up and say "thank you."

Look at how many people started to seek God after 9-11. Churches were full of those seeking comfort.

I always appreciate it myself. While I personally feel the action itself leads to nothing, the thought and compassion that goes into it means a lot, and I always respect it, and even welcome it.

fettpett
09-16-2011, 08:51 AM
I always appreciate it myself. While I personally feel the action itself leads to nothing, the thought and compassion that goes into it means a lot, and I always respect it, and even welcome it.

:) at lest you are open to it. There are many who aren't and are just as likely to lash out, sadly.

On that note though, there have been many studies that show that people who pray or have others praying for them are much more likely to recover than those who don't.

marv
09-16-2011, 10:01 AM
I always appreciate it myself. While I personally feel the action itself leads to nothing, the thought and compassion that goes into it means a lot, and I always respect it, and even welcome it.

:) at lest you are open to it. There are many who aren't and are just as likely to lash out, sadly.


...I agree, and that is the difference between an Atheist like Michael Newdow, who wanted the phrase 'under God' removed from the pledge, and an atheist, who is not offended by religion.

fettpett
09-16-2011, 10:39 AM
...I agree, and that is the difference between an Atheist like Michael Newdow, who wanted the phrase 'under God' removed from the pledge, and an atheist, who is not offended by religion.

thats why I don't call them atheist, but ANTItheist, much more fitting

Starbuck
09-16-2011, 10:49 AM
Many athiests start praying when they learn they have a terminal disease.....


.....just sayin'.

I hope you don't think that this proves anything any more than my seeing a professed Christian engaged in acts of non-Christian behavior......................:confused:

Hawkgirl
09-16-2011, 03:20 PM
How do athiests explain people who tell stories about an afterlife after a near death experience. People who were pronounced dead who rose from their bodies and experienced some sort of after life. People who were able to recount the happenings of the OR while their heart rate flat lined?


My best friend is an athiest. She didn't tell me for the longest time because she knew I was an observant catholic. We had a talk about "life after death" and she believes that once we die, we are nothing.
I disagree...I believe our spirit lives on.

Hawkgirl
09-16-2011, 03:21 PM
I hope you don't think that this proves anything any more than my seeing a professed Christian engaged in acts of non-Christian behavior......................:confused:

Take it at face value.

Wei Wu Wei
09-16-2011, 04:14 PM
How do athiests explain people who tell stories about an afterlife after a near death experience. People who were pronounced dead who rose from their bodies and experienced some sort of after life. People who were able to recount the happenings of the OR while their heart rate flat lined?

Generally they look at the effects of oxygen deprivation on the brain, which include flooding colors, a feeling of lightness, ect. ect.

Basically the argument is that near-death experiences are by-products of natural biological processes during the death process.

Many people experience profound, spiritual, even out-of-body experiences under the influence of certain drugs, the argument is that this same thing is happening during the unusual brain chemistry that occurs at that time.

Odysseus
09-16-2011, 04:24 PM
Happy to have voted in this poll.

Am proud to be a non-hyphenated, God-fearing, flag-waving, gun-owning, Tea Party member, ULTRA-conservative, naturalized AMERICAN!

Did I leave anything out? :D

I believe in the Death Penalty, water-boarding, am 99.9% against abortion, unless it imperils the very life of the mother, and voting with photo IDs only. In fact if I had my way, only half-joking here ... I would insist on an IQ test for all potential voters.

No idea what the issues are facing your community, state, and heaven help us, the country, know nothing about the candidates and their positions on said issues?

No vote! :p :)

~ ABC
I'd modify the last to eliminate ballots. All positions have to be write-ins. If you can't name the person that you're voting for, no vote. Also, only taxpayers should vote. There would be no minimum amount required, but you'd have to bring a 1040 form with your photo ID, showing that you filed taxes.

Generally they look at the effects of oxygen deprivation on the brain, which include flooding colors, a feeling of lightness, ect. ect.

And belief in utopian political fantasies. Don't leave that symptom out.

Hawkgirl
09-16-2011, 04:24 PM
Generally they look at the effects of oxygen deprivation on the brain, which include flooding colors, a feeling of lightness, ect. ect.

Basically the argument is that near-death experiences are by-products of natural biological processes during the death process.

Many people experience profound, spiritual, even out-of-body experiences under the influence of certain drugs, the argument is that this same thing is happening during the unusual brain chemistry that occurs at that time.


That is one of the scientific arguments..that death is a process and that these are hallucinations...if you go further though, specifically into what these people are experiencing, it goes far beyond anything related to drug side effects.

marv
09-16-2011, 04:51 PM
How do athiests explain people who tell stories about an afterlife after a near death experience.A very good friend of mine, a devout Baptist, also believes in ghosts and flying saucers.


...I believe our spirit lives on....and you are free to believe that.

Belief is the acceptance of something without proof or logic. Some require either proof or a reasoned and logical argument, and some do not. I'm of the former, but I won't disparage the later.

Starbuck
09-16-2011, 07:23 PM
Generally they look at the effects of oxygen deprivation on the brain, which include flooding colors, a feeling of lightness, ect. ect.

Basically the argument is that near-death experiences are by-products of natural biological processes during the death process.

Many people experience profound, spiritual, even out-of-body experiences under the influence of certain drugs, the argument is that this same thing is happening during the unusual brain chemistry that occurs at that time.

Being as this is kind of a tell all kind of thread, what do you believe?
Seriously.

RobJohnson
09-18-2011, 01:38 AM
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/163737_1627524604385_1124659021_31539360_7410042_n .jpg

RobJohnson
09-18-2011, 01:49 AM
:) at lest you are open to it. There are many who aren't and are just as likely to lash out, sadly.

On that note though, there have been many studies that show that people who pray or have others praying for them are much more likely to recover than those who don't.

I agree 100%

noonwitch
09-19-2011, 03:33 PM
That is one of the scientific arguments..that death is a process and that these are hallucinations...if you go further though, specifically into what these people are experiencing, it goes far beyond anything related to drug side effects.


A person's hallucinations are influenced by their belief system or by the belief system in which they were raised.


I'm a believer in the afterlife. I'm just a skeptic when it comes to people's claims of having experienced it in near-death experiences.

Lanie
09-19-2011, 04:22 PM
A person's hallucinations are influenced by their belief system or by the belief system in which they were raised.


I'm a believer in the afterlife. I'm just a skeptic when it comes to people's claims of having experienced it in near-death experiences.


A few weeks before he died, my dad said he saw his father and my grand-mother on my mother's side. Two things.

First, I don't think he was raised to believe in ghosts.

Second, why his mother in law and not his mother if it's all in his head?

noonwitch
09-19-2011, 04:29 PM
A few weeks before he died, my dad said he saw his father and my grand-mother on my mother's side. Two things.

First, I don't think he was raised to believe in ghosts.

Second, why his mother in law and not his mother if it's all in his head?



The night my grandma died, I dreamed that she came to me and told me to hurry up and have a baby before it is too late. I didn't know she was dying (she'd been in a nursing home for several years) , and got an email from Grandpa later the next morning.

When she died, I was entering the early stages of "the change" and the thought was on my mind. I can't speak for your dad, but I'm pretty sure I was just dreaming.

Hawkgirl
09-19-2011, 05:32 PM
I believe people when they tell of a near death experience. Mostly. I recall the moment my grandmother passed, eventhough I was not there to see it.

I was in school, and working at night in the hospital film library. No windows, just a large room that held xray folders. I knew my grandmother was in the hospital and not doing well...but I was going about my day doing my job.
All of a sudden, as I was writing in a log book, a wind came whirling around me and pushed the papers off my desk, and I "felt" my grandmother...I was not thinking of her, or even thinking about anything relating to her...but I "felt" an overwhelming sense of her when the wind came by. There are NO windows or any place to get a draft where I was working. About 3 minutes later, the phone rang and it was my father telling me of my grandmother's passing. My response was "I know, she said goodbye".

Starbuck
09-19-2011, 06:29 PM
A few weeks before he died, my dad said he saw his father and my grand-mother on my mother's side. Two things.

First, I don't think he was raised to believe in ghosts.

Second, why his mother in law and not his mother if it's all in his head?
Good question.