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marv
09-14-2011, 04:41 PM
Cherokee Indians:We are free to oust blacks (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44516027/ns/us_news-life/#.TnCthk_VRSc)...
(snip)

The nation's second-largest Indian tribe said on Tuesday that it would not be dictated to by the U.S. government over its move to banish 2,800 African Americans from its citizenship rolls.

"The Cherokee Nation will not be governed by the BIA," Joe Crittenden, the tribe's acting principal chief, said in a statement responding to the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs.

(snip)

The dispute stems from the fact that some wealthy Cherokee owned black slaves who worked on their plantations in the South. By the 1830s, most of the tribe was forced to relocate to present-day Oklahoma, and many took their slaves with them. The so-called Freedmen are descendants of those slaves.

After the Civil War, in which the Cherokee fought for the South, a treaty was signed in 1866 guaranteeing tribal citizenship for the freed slaves.

(snip)

The African Americans lost their citizenship last month when the Cherokee Supreme Court voted to support the right of tribal members to change the tribe's constitution on citizenship matters.

(snip)

A battle of tribal Constitution vs. US Constitution maybe. Indian tribes are recognized as sovereign nations by treaty.

malloc
09-14-2011, 04:59 PM
I know this might not be a very popular viewpoint among some people, but I think it's time we completely did away with the U.S. Tribal system, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and the treaties that we mostly didn't live up to anyway. This is a continent we share now, and that is never going to change. We should be one America by now, and having little spots of sovereign territory dotting our collective landscapes has never been a very good solution to our problems.

In America, we have freedom of religion and are thankfully still largely self-deterministic in our nature, which would allow the tribes to assimilate into America, and still follow their own religions and familial traditions without needing separate councils and laws. We European settlers aren't going away, that's never, ever going to happen. The Native Americans stuck on reservations, aside from gaming, are wasting away as a people due to poverty and isolationism. Most natives today, at least those I know and have met through the USMC, have a strong sense of American values and are glad to be Americans, so I don't see what the purpose of the reservation system is anymore.

I am the only one who sees the modern day tribal and reservation systems as silly to the point of wasting our time and resources?

Starbuck
09-14-2011, 05:32 PM
.............I am the only one who sees the modern day tribal and reservation systems as silly to the point of wasting our time and resources?.........

No. I second the motion. In almost every instance the conquered nation is required to assimilate itself into the new nation.

.....On the other hand, there are certain areas which may be considered relevant to Indian history and tradition. These areas should be made part of the National Park system and maintained by the U.S. government.

One nation, one land.

Apache
09-14-2011, 06:52 PM
Most Indians embrace the American Way. THere are those who want to cling to victimhood...

Novaheart
09-14-2011, 09:23 PM
If you look around on the web, you'll find videos of Henry Louis Gates (of Obama beer fame) , Harvard professor, debunking a great deal of the "black and native American" belief system.

Now in fairness to the blacks, while some of them have built up a considerable folklore on the subject, there are also millions of caucasian Americans who make claim of Indian ancestry based on nothing more that "someone told me".

Grandfathers and uncles have been filling little kids full of BS on this subject for generations, often themselves believing it. It's simply rarely the case. If you actually study your family history, then you will also be studying US history. While it's more possible amongst those whose ancestry follows the trail west (the rules were more lax) it is extremely unlikely that an Easterner has any provable Indian ancestry. People like to repeat the "my great great grandmother was....." but do they actually think about what that would mean? That would mean that she could not go to school with white children, and that her children could not go to school with white children. It didn't happen. It's just what people tell little kids who are fascinated with Indians the same way they are with horses.

For black people, a people who have been told and who believe sincerely in the importance of their oral history, it's even harder to break this BS out. But Henry Lyons did it with genetic testing. The looks of disappointment on the faces of the celebrities he tested is a little heart wrenching, something else taken away. But then he gives them the good news, which is that he knows where their ancestors came from, almost down to the village in Ghana or Cote d"Ivoire. And then they light up.

I don't know what the fascination is with claiming Indian ancestry.

Now, what is cool is looking at our common ancestors and those who descended from them. The Indians who live in Russia remove any doubt where the Plains Indians of the US came from.

http://englishrussia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/post-3-12655355788140.jpg

Rockntractor
09-14-2011, 09:28 PM
No. I second the motion. In almost every instance the conquered nation is required to assimilate itself into the new nation.

.....On the other hand, there are certain areas which may be considered relevant to Indian history and tradition. These areas should be made part of the National Park system and maintained by the U.S. government.

One nation, one land.

I am also in agreement, Nixon is to blame for a lot for our current native American policy.

Odysseus
09-14-2011, 09:41 PM
Getting back to the OP, I wonder which victim group the media will side with? The expulsion of former slaves by one of the premier victim groups in America is a delicious irony, and I can't wait to see how it plays out.

noworries
09-14-2011, 09:50 PM
Getting back to the OP, I wonder which victim group the media will side with? The expulsion of former slaves by one of the premier victim groups in America is a delicious irony, and I can't wait to see how it plays out.

I second that

txradioguy
09-15-2011, 02:40 AM
Getting back to the OP, I wonder which victim group the media will side with? The expulsion of former slaves by one of the premier victim groups in America is a delicious irony, and I can't wait to see how it plays out.

I always ask the question to Libtards who want to chant the reparations meme if they are going to ask for some of the money from the Cherokee's that owned slaves and had plantations in the South prior to their forced march to Oklahoma.


They always look confused on that one.

But you're right it will be curious to see which victim class they side with.

obx
09-15-2011, 08:04 AM
I always ask the question to Libtards who want to chant the reparations meme if they are going to ask for some of the money from the Cherokee's that owned slaves and had plantations in the South prior to their forced march to Oklahoma.


They always look confused on that one.

But you're right it will be curious to see which victim class they side with.

There were also free blacks in the south who owned slaves. One, I think in Louisiana, had a sugar plantation and was the third largest owner of slaves in the state.

noonwitch
09-15-2011, 08:53 AM
There have been some serious corruption issues with one of the Michigan tribes and it's associated casino profits. I don't remember which tribe, but they were purging members from the tribe and stripping them of their casino profit shares for voicing any kind of opposition to the leadership. Most of the tribes that have casinos in Michigan are not having those kinds of problems.


I don't have a real problem with Indian casinos, but I think at this point there needs to be more US government or state government oversight of them. Since tribal police are all also profit-sharing members of the tribe, they have a conflict of interest in investigations involving the casinos. The potential exists for massive corruption if the casinos continue to be governed solely by tribal law and US Bureau of Indian Affairs.

DumbAss Tanker
09-15-2011, 09:31 AM
I know this might not be a very popular viewpoint among some people, but I think it's time we completely did away with the U.S. Tribal system, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and the treaties that we mostly didn't live up to anyway. This is a continent we share now, and that is never going to change. We should be one America by now, and having little spots of sovereign territory dotting our collective landscapes has never been a very good solution to our problems.

In America, we have freedom of religion and are thankfully still largely self-deterministic in our nature, which would allow the tribes to assimilate into America, and still follow their own religions and familial traditions without needing separate councils and laws. We European settlers aren't going away, that's never, ever going to happen. The Native Americans stuck on reservations, aside from gaming, are wasting away as a people due to poverty and isolationism. Most natives today, at least those I know and have met through the USMC, have a strong sense of American values and are glad to be Americans, so I don't see what the purpose of the reservation system is anymore.

I am the only one who sees the modern day tribal and reservation systems as silly to the point of wasting our time and resources?

Yeah, and WTF do those damned Canucks think they're doing, sitting on our gold, nickel, and diamonds, and putting up checkpoints at either end of the Alaska Highway? This ridiculous artifact enclave must be abolished!

Problem with wiping your ass with one 'piece of paper' law is that pretty soon everything else becomes just a piece of paper too, including the Constitution.

ETA: I agree with Odysseus; best to just sit back and watch the circus rather than get sucked into it.

Odysseus
09-15-2011, 04:57 PM
I always ask the question to Libtards who want to chant the reparations meme if they are going to ask for some of the money from the Cherokee's that owned slaves and had plantations in the South prior to their forced march to Oklahoma.

They always look confused on that one.

But you're right it will be curious to see which victim class they side with.
Perhaps they can be given better odds in the casinos as compensation? :D

Yeah, and WTF do those damned Canucks think they're doing, sitting on our gold, nickel, and diamonds, and putting up checkpoints at either end of the Alaska Highway? This ridiculous artifact enclave must be abolished!

Problem with wiping your ass with one 'piece of paper' law is that pretty soon everything else becomes just a piece of paper too, including the Constitution.

ETA: I agree with Odysseus; best to just sit back and watch the circus rather than get sucked into it.

I suspect that they will have to go after the Cherokee, since they don't account for anywhere near the votes that blacks do. The feds are already threatening to withhold tribal benefits if they act on this resolution.

BTW, they aren't "expelling" blacks from the tribe, they are demanding that they demonstrate proof of Cherokee blood, which has become necessary because the number of recipients of federal largess has diluted the funds available to each member of the tribe, so rather than try to demand more money, the tribes are narrowing the pool of eligible recipients. Or, to put it another way, it's not personal, it's just business.