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View Full Version : Shane Bauer: Iranian Guards Cited Guantánamo, CIA Prisons to Justify Mistreatment



Wei Wu Wei
09-26-2011, 03:28 PM
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/9/26/freed_us_hiker_shane_bauer_iranian


"We do not believe that such human rights violations on the part of our government justify what has been done to us. Not for a moment. However, we do believe that these actions on the part of the U.S. provide an excuse for other governments, including the government of Iran, to act in kind."

It's very difficult for a nation which does whatever it wants to pretend to be the police of the world. There's a bit of irony in the fact that the US tries to dictate to the world who can and cannot have nuclear weapons, despite the fact thay we are the only nation in the world to ever use such weapons.

This same thing rings true here. Other countries and international groups detest America's justice system for it's own citizens, including prison conditions and corporeal punishment.

The picture looks even worse with regards to our actions overseas. People being detained without trial, suspending habeus corpus, using torture methods and letting our intelligence forces keep secret prisons around the world. When our own government acts like this, how are we able, with any sense of legitimacy, to dictate to others that they should be more humane in their actions.


As Shane Bauer says, after being detained in an Iranian prison for over 2 years, our government's actions do not justify what other countries do, but it does give them an excuse, setting by example.

Novaheart
09-26-2011, 03:37 PM
I'd like to slap the SOB who paid the ransom for these "hikers".

Hillary should have told Iran to "do as you will" with them.

noonwitch
09-26-2011, 03:42 PM
I'd like to slap the SOB who paid the ransom for these "hikers".

Hillary should have told Iran to "do as you will" with them.



I'm glad that they are home, despite their obvious stupidity. Who vacations on the Iran/Iraq border?

Novaheart
09-26-2011, 03:55 PM
I'm glad that they are home, despite their obvious stupidity. Who vacations on the Iran/Iraq border?

Howard Zinn devotees would be my guess.

Odysseus
09-26-2011, 04:04 PM
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/9/26/freed_us_hiker_shane_bauer_iranian



It's very difficult for a nation which does whatever it wants to pretend to be the police of the world. There's a bit of irony in the fact that the US tries to dictate to the world who can and cannot have nuclear weapons, despite the fact thay we are the only nation in the world to ever use such weapons.

This same thing rings true here. Other countries and international groups detest America's justice system for it's own citizens, including prison conditions and corporeal punishment.

The picture looks even worse with regards to our actions overseas. People being detained without trial, suspending habeus corpus, using torture methods and letting our intelligence forces keep secret prisons around the world. When our own government acts like this, how are we able, with any sense of legitimacy, to dictate to others that they should be more humane in their actions.

As Shane Bauer says, after being detained in an Iranian prison for over 2 years, our government's actions do not justify what other countries do, but it does give them an excuse, setting by example.

Long before we had a detention facility in Guantanamo, the Iranians attacked our embassy (an act of war), held our diplomats hostage (ditto), provided aid in the form of training, arms and money to terrorists who targeted Americans throughout the world and also attacked apolitical Jewish groups (in Buenos Aires, for example). They have systematically destroyed every community of faith within their borders except for their own narrow Islamic cult, and eliminated every vestige of civil rights. In the Iran/Iraq War, they sent children to the front armed with plastic "keys to heaven" and had them act as human mine sweepers (a war crime). They have never needed an excuse to be monsters, but useful idiots are more than ready to provide one at the expense of their own nation. For you and Shane Bauer to equate them with the United States is grotesque and monstrous. He is a stupid, ignorant man who does not appreciate the liberties that he enjoys in America. Your echo of his sentiments demonstrates a degree of moral bankruptcy that defies comprehension.

Wei Wu Wei
09-26-2011, 04:16 PM
Long before we had a detention facility in Guantanamo, the Iranians attacked our embassy (an act of war), held our diplomats hostage (ditto), provided aid in the form of training, arms and money to terrorists who targeted Americans throughout the world and also attacked apolitical Jewish groups. They have systematically destroyed every community of faith within their borders except for their own narrow Islamic cult, and eliminated every vestige of civil rights. In the Iran/Iraq War, they sent children to the front armed with plastic "keys to heaven" and had them act as human mine sweepers (a war crime). They have never needed an excuse to be monsters, but useful idiots are more than ready to provide one at the expense of their own nation. For you and Shane Bauer to equate them with the United States is grotesque and monstrous. He is a stupid, ignorant man who does not appreciate the liberties that he enjoys in America. Your echo of his sentiments demonstrates a degree of moral bankruptcy that defies comprehension.

I'm not justifying Iran's detestable actions, nor equating us with them, I'm simply highlighting a teaching of Jesus Christ:


"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
-Matthew 7:5


If we want to stand up for the rights of people around the world, and condemn the evil actions of other nations, we should be absolutely certain we do the same here first.

Rockntractor
09-26-2011, 04:27 PM
The hikers should be whipped and made to pay back every dollar they cost this country and those that paid their ransom!

Wei Wu Wei
09-26-2011, 04:29 PM
The hikers should be whipped and made to pay back every dollar they cost this country and those that paid their ransom!

hopefully they wont plan a trip to the border of North Korea

Odysseus
09-26-2011, 04:30 PM
I'm not justifying Iran's detestable actions, nor equating us with them, I'm simply highlighting a teaching of Jesus Christ:

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
-Matthew 7:5

If we want to stand up for the rights of people around the world, and condemn the evil actions of other nations, we should be absolutely certain we do the same here first.

We do stand up for the rights of people here. As proof, note that despite your perpetual attacks against the United States, you have never had a midnight knock on the door, never been detained, never been questioned about your affiliations or otherwise inconvenienced. When you consider that I am an officer of the government, and that you have openly sided with our enemies in front of me, that is even more obvious proof. In fact, your snide attacks on the US and your lack of fear of reprisal are the greatest testament to our commitment to liberty and freedom that we could have. If America were the kind of dictatorship that you constantly pretend that we are, you'd never have the nerve to write what you do.

DumbAss Tanker
09-26-2011, 04:43 PM
I'm glad that they are home, despite their obvious stupidity. Who vacations on the Iran/Iraq border?

That's why I never gave a rat's ass about them. Choices have consequences.

Wei Wu Wei
09-26-2011, 04:53 PM
We do stand up for the rights of people here. As proof, note that despite your perpetual attacks against the United States, you have never had a midnight knock on the door, never been detained, never been questioned about your affiliations or otherwise inconvenienced. When you consider that I am an officer of the government, and that you have openly sided with our enemies in front of me, that is even more obvious proof. In fact, your snide attacks on the US and your lack of fear of reprisal are the greatest testament to our commitment to liberty and freedom that we could have.

This is true of just about every advanced nation in the world. Most comparable countries allow their citizens to speak freely and criticize elected official and oppose things like wars and policies. That's not something extraordinary, in fact, it's expected.

Your argument is that because Americans have more personal liberties than Jews in Nazi Germany or political dissidents in Stalinist Russia, then we are above all criticism? That's absurd.

If you must resort to comparisons of Nazi style authoritarianism in order to make us look good, you're not doing it right. Your eagerness to rush to extremes in order to make a point displays a weakness in your argument.


I'm also not bothered by authorities because I don't pose any significant threat, but if I were someone controversial like, say, a modern day Martin Luther King, JR, I have no doubts that I would be under investigation (just like he was).

There are many great things about this country, but also many flaws, and I believe we should examine and improve our own flaws before stomping around telling the whole world what they are doing wrong.




If America were the kind of dictatorship that you constantly pretend that we are, you'd never have the nerve to write what you do.

I've never claimed America was a dictatorship and never suggested our rights are as limited as in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. You are just exaggerating in order to try to make an easy point that no one is arguing.

You do this a lot, rather than discuss at the level of what I'm saying, you paint this silly false strawman about my ideas and argue those. You think if you criticize stalin that somehow my points are invalidated? Do you think you "win" arguments by criticizing things I don't even say? :rolleyes:


That's weak. I know you are a smart guy, so if you stop leaping forward with absurdities and exaggerations our discussions would be a lot more interesting.

obx
09-26-2011, 05:17 PM
We should have left their dead bodies on the battlefield, then we would not have needed Gitmo.

Odysseus
09-26-2011, 05:45 PM
This is true of just about every advanced nation in the world. Most comparable countries allow their citizens to speak freely and criticize elected official and oppose things like wars and policies. That's not something extraordinary, in fact, it's expected.

Is it? The EU has some rather draconian restrictions on speech, just ask Geert Wilders or Oriana Fallaci. Today, China is among the most rapidly advancing economies in the world, but there isn't a whole lot of freedom there. Singapore is highly advanced, but they have very strict restrictions on free speech. Freedom and advancement are not necessarily going to go hand in hand, and advanced countries can backslide into tyranny very easily. Germany was a highly advanced country before the Nazis took over, and Argentina had one of the most advanced economies in the world before the Perons turned it into a socialist nightmare.


Your argument is that because Americans have more personal liberties than Jews in Nazi Germany or political dissidents in Stalinist Russia, then we are above all criticism? That's absurd.
Far less absurd than your habitual equating of the US with totalitarian regimes.


If you must resort to comparisons of Nazi style authoritarianism in order to make us look good, you're not doing it right. Your eagerness to rush to extremes in order to make a point displays a weakness in your argument.
So, it's okay to compare us to totalitarian regimes and accuse us of Nazi-style authoritarianism (BTW, I was actually referencing Soviet-style authoritarianism, but there's not a dime's worth of difference between National Socialism, Communism and whatever version you're flogging lately) to make us look bad? Did you happen to read what you wrote above? Here:


It's very difficult for a nation which does whatever it wants to pretend to be the police of the world. There's a bit of irony in the fact that the US tries to dictate to the world who can and cannot have nuclear weapons, despite the fact thay we are the only nation in the world to ever use such weapons.

This same thing rings true here. Other countries and international groups detest America's justice system for it's own citizens, including prison conditions and corporeal punishment.

The picture looks even worse with regards to our actions overseas. People being detained without trial, suspending habeus corpus, using torture methods and letting our intelligence forces keep secret prisons around the world. When our own government acts like this, how are we able, with any sense of legitimacy, to dictate to others that they should be more humane in their actions.

As Shane Bauer says, after being detained in an Iranian prison for over 2 years, our government's actions do not justify what other countries do, but it does give them an excuse, setting by example.


I'm also not bothered by authorities because I don't pose any significant threat, but if I were someone controversial like, say, a modern day Martin Luther King, JR, I have no doubts that I would be under investigation (just like he was).

Ironically, King was only under surveillance by liberal Democrats, because they considered him a threat. Ike didn't worry about him, because he was pro-civil rights. But, you are correct about one thing, which is that you aren't a threat. A nuisance, yes. Not a threat.


There are many great things about this country, but also many flaws, and I believe we should examine and improve our own flaws before stomping around telling the whole world what they are doing wrong.
This isn't a case of ignoring our flaws, it's a case of ignoring our virtues. We do examine our flaws, and we do improve ourselves, as demonstrated by the end of a host of ills. In what other country could a member of a minority that was consigned to second-class citizenship within our lifetimes become president? Show me another nation that has fought as hard and as long as we have to purge our faults. We aren't perfect, and we never will be (especially since, in your eyes, perfection is unattainable except through your leftist fantasies), but we are so much better than almost everyone else at the very things that you attack us for that, quite frankly, it takes a willful ignorance of epic proportions to attack this country the way that you routinely do.


I've never claimed America was a dictatorship and never suggested our rights are as limited as in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. You are just exaggerating in order to try to make an easy point that no one is arguing.
You're not claiming that?
Didn't you write this at the top of the thread?


The picture looks even worse with regards to our actions overseas. People being detained without trial, suspending habeus corpus, using torture methods and letting our intelligence forces keep secret prisons around the world. When our own government acts like this, how are we able, with any sense of legitimacy, to dictate to others that they should be more humane in their actions.
Those are the actions of dictatorships. If you aren't claiming that we are one, then what are you claiming?


You do this a lot, rather than discuss at the level of what I'm saying, you paint this silly false strawman about my ideas and argue those. You think if you criticize stalin that somehow my points are invalidated? Do you think you "win" arguments by criticizing things I don't even say? :rolleyes:
I'm not creating a straw man. Those are the things that you have said. Would you like more quotes from prior threads? This new moderate pose isn't going to erase your last five years here, you know.


That's weak. I know you are a smart guy, so if you stop leaping forward with absurdities and exaggerations our discussions would be a lot more interesting.

I don't need to exaggerate your positions. I simply quote them and then take them to their logical conclusion. You can pretend that you aren't running down the United States and comparing it, unfavorably, to dictatorships, but you're only fooling yourself. I doubt that even the kids in the special ed class that you teach fall for this.

Tipsycatlover
09-26-2011, 06:18 PM
If it wasn't Guantanamo, or the CIA, it would have been something else. The muslims hate us. They have a lot of reasons for hating us. They can drag them out at will. The one thing I do give them credit for, is that they will question an individual to determine which reason that individual will most believe. Then give it to them. To one person it might be Guantamano and the CIA. Another person might easier believe Abu Ghraib. Another might buy western support for Israel. To the base, it might be slutty women. Whatever you got, they'll give it to you.

NJCardFan
09-26-2011, 07:02 PM
This same thing rings true here. Other countries and international groups detest America's justice system for it's own citizens, including prison conditions and corporeal punishment.


Wait, what? Free room and board, free medical care, free education, free cable TV, free access to exercise equipment, free job training. Yeah, our prisons are regular gulags. :rolleyes:

djones520
09-26-2011, 08:02 PM
I'm glad that they are home, despite their obvious stupidity. Who vacations on the Iran/Iraq border?

Liberal hippies who didn't believe the actual threat that was posed by these extremists. And then they bought into the propaganda the Iranians fed them and spouted it off on national tv.

It made me sick to my stomach watching that shit.

Constitutionally Speaking
09-26-2011, 11:01 PM
I'm not justifying Iran's detestable actions, nor equating us with them, I'm simply highlighting a teaching of Jesus Christ:


"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
-Matthew 7:5


If we want to stand up for the rights of people around the world, and condemn the evil actions of other nations, we should be absolutely certain we do the same here first.


Except we are NOT hypocrites. You lefties LIE about what we do and you act like the recruiting arm of the terrorists when you keep shouting your lies from the mountaintops. The ONLY reason Guantanamo is even an issue is that the left repeatedly lied about all sorts of things. For example we did NOT flush the Koran down a toilet.

Wei Wu Wei
09-27-2011, 12:13 AM
Is it? The EU has some rather draconian restrictions on speech, just ask Geert Wilders or Oriana Fallaci. Today, China is among the most rapidly advancing economies in the world, but there isn't a whole lot of freedom there. Singapore is highly advanced, but they have very strict restrictions on free speech. Freedom and advancement are not necessarily going to go hand in hand, and advanced countries can backslide into tyranny very easily. Germany was a highly advanced country before the Nazis took over, and Argentina had one of the most advanced economies in the world before the Perons turned it into a socialist nightmare.

I think this is an excellent point and something I want to expand on later, you are illustrating something that is rather hard to articulate. Good post so far.





Far less absurd than your habitual equating of the US with totalitarian regimes.

I'm not making that comparison, I'm giving facts.




So, it's okay to compare us to totalitarian regimes and accuse us of Nazi-style authoritarianism (BTW, I was actually referencing Soviet-style authoritarianism, but there's not a dime's worth of difference between National Socialism, Communism and whatever version you're flogging lately) to make us look bad? Did you happen to read what you wrote above? Here:


It's very difficult for a nation which does whatever it wants to pretend to be the police of the world. There's a bit of irony in the fact that the US tries to dictate to the world who can and cannot have nuclear weapons, despite the fact thay we are the only nation in the world to ever use such weapons.

This same thing rings true here. Other countries and international groups detest America's justice system for it's own citizens, including prison conditions and corporeal punishment.

The picture looks even worse with regards to our actions overseas. People being detained without trial, suspending habeus corpus, using torture methods and letting our intelligence forces keep secret prisons around the world. When our own government acts like this, how are we able, with any sense of legitimacy, to dictate to others that they should be more humane in their actions.

As Shane Bauer says, after being detained in an Iranian prison for over 2 years, our government's actions do not justify what other countries do, but it does give them an excuse, setting by example.

These are all facts.

1. The United States is the only nation to ever use Nuclear weapons on people, and is active in trying to control who has access to them.
2. Bush suspended habeas corpus, as did Lincoln.
3. The United States convicted Japanese soldiers for torture for their use of techniques similar to waterboarding.




Ironically, King was only under surveillance by liberal Democrats, because they considered him a threat. Ike didn't worry about him, because he was pro-civil rights. But, you are correct about one thing, which is that you aren't a threat. A nuisance, yes. Not a threat.

King was investigated by the FBI. I don't care about party cheerleading that much.





This isn't a case of ignoring our flaws, it's a case of ignoring our virtues. We do examine our flaws, and we do improve ourselves, as demonstrated by the end of a host of ills. In what other country could a member of a minority that was consigned to second-class citizenship within our lifetimes become president?

South Africa.

Yes, the election of Barack Obama in a country with a deep history of slavery and racism is an impressive testament to progress made, I don't deny that.


Show me another nation that has fought as hard and as long as we have to purge our faults. We aren't perfect, and we never will be (especially since, in your eyes, perfection is unattainable except through your leftist fantasies), but we are so much better than almost everyone else at the very things that you attack us for that, quite frankly, it takes a willful ignorance of epic proportions to attack this country the way that you routinely do.

We are far better in some areas, far worse in others. This over-zealous jingoism can be blinding.



You're not claiming that?
Didn't you write this at the top of the thread?


The picture looks even worse with regards to our actions overseas. People being detained without trial, suspending habeus corpus, using torture methods and letting our intelligence forces keep secret prisons around the world. When our own government acts like this, how are we able, with any sense of legitimacy, to dictate to others that they should be more humane in their actions.
Those are the actions of dictatorships. If you aren't claiming that we are one, then what are you claiming?

Those are facts. You can make whatever comparisons you want to.



I'm not creating a straw man. Those are the things that you have said. Would you like more quotes from prior threads? This new moderate pose isn't going to erase your last five years here, you know.

You do work hard on your strawmen. Look bud I could go digging through your posts in old threads and point out your flawed logic and over-zealous hotheadedness that turned out to just be foolishness (anders breivek anyone?), but then again I'm not that obsessed with you or your fantasies.

txradioguy
09-27-2011, 04:14 AM
Long before we had a detention facility in Guantanamo, the Iranians attacked our embassy (an act of war), held our diplomats hostage (ditto), provided aid in the form of training, arms and money to terrorists who targeted Americans throughout the world and also attacked apolitical Jewish groups (in Buenos Aires, for example). They have systematically destroyed every community of faith within their borders except for their own narrow Islamic cult, and eliminated every vestige of civil rights. In the Iran/Iraq War, they sent children to the front armed with plastic "keys to heaven" and had them act as human mine sweepers (a war crime). They have never needed an excuse to be monsters, but useful idiots are more than ready to provide one at the expense of their own nation. For you and Shane Bauer to equate them with the United States is grotesque and monstrous. He is a stupid, ignorant man who does not appreciate the liberties that he enjoys in America. Your echo of his sentiments demonstrates a degree of moral bankruptcy that defies comprehension.

This.

Our short attention span BDS suffering Libtards and local Ronulans fail to remember that the Islamic terrorists have long been at war with us. Their hatred of us didn't just start on 9/11.

It's decades old. It runs several generations deep. And closing Gitmo and leaving Iraq and Afghanistan won't end their hatred or their desire to destroy us.

NJCardFan
09-27-2011, 05:36 AM
Gitmo detainees live better in Gitmo than they ever had in their sandboxes. They get meals, prepared the Islamic way, served to them courtesy of the American taxpayer. They have running water. They have toilets. They're well taken care of. You lefties act like they're taken on the Bataan death march every day.

Odysseus
09-27-2011, 01:41 PM
I'm not making that comparison, I'm giving facts.
No, you are giving opinions and cherry picking half truths or, in some cases, outright lies, in order to make the comparison which you deny making.


These are all facts.

1. The United States is the only nation to ever use Nuclear weapons on people, and is active in trying to control who has access to them.
Stated this way, it makes us seem hypocritical. In fact, the US was prepared to unilaterally give up all nuclear weapons after WWII, but the Soviets refused and continued to develop their own weapons. You also omit that because we were the first to develop nuclear weapons, it was our use of them caused us to seek to restrict their use by others. This means that, among those nations which have a demonstrated capacity to keep to treaties, we negotiate limits. Among those nations that are incapable of being trusted, it means imposing stronger measures.

2. Bush suspended habeas corpus, as did Lincoln.
This is a lie. At no time did Bush suspend Habeas Corpus.

3. The United States convicted Japanese soldiers for torture for their use of techniques similar to waterboarding.
This is also a lie. The war crimes that the Japanese inflcited on POWs and civilians included, but were not limited to, Mass killings, Human experimentation and biological warfare, Use of chemical weapons, Torture of prisoners of war (which was followed by execution), Cannibalism, Forced labor, the sexual enslavement of "Comfort women" and systematic Looting. The tortures far exceeded waterboarding, and included such acts as removal of fingernails or using bamboo shoots under them, severe beatings, and one particular innovation involving a glass rod placed in the male sexual organs and then broken in place. Female prisoners were routinely raped during interrogations. To equate these barbarities with waterboarding is despicably dishonest, even for you.


King was investigated by the FBI. I don't care about party cheerleading that much.
Oh, but it does matter. You implied that if the Bush administration had seen you as a viable threat, they'd have had you under surveillance. But, in order to be a viable threat, they had to think that you were involved in terrorism, either directly, or through support for it, and that surveillance would result in the interdiction of a plot. The Democrats who bugged Dr. King considered him a threat because they opposed the Civil Rights movement, a substantially different motivation, unless you want to equate the end of Jim Crow with terrorism.


South Africa.
Okay, and South Africa had to have a full on revoultion in which the ruling party was tossed out. Did we?


Yes, the election of Barack Obama in a country with a deep history of slavery and racism is an impressive testament to progress made, I don't deny that.
No, you just ignore it.


We are far better in some areas, far worse in others. This over-zealous jingoism can be blinding.
Is our "jingoism" worse than that of Iran? Do we have rallies in which we chant "death to Iran" and "death to Islam"? Are you seriously equating the vibrant debate that we have here with the vicious, mindless and bigoted sloganeering that is put out, not just from private sources, but from the offical news agencies of the various Arab/Islamic states?


Those are facts. You can make whatever comparisons you want to.
The only comparison that I can make is between you and the editors of Pravda under Stalin. They also lied about the United States in order to support their corrupt system, but in their defense, they had no choice, as they would have been murdered if they had failed to do so, as would their families. As near as I can tell, you trash you own country of your own free will.


You do work hard on your strawmen. Look bud I could go digging through your posts in old threads and point out your flawed logic and over-zealous hotheadedness that turned out to just be foolishness (anders breivek anyone?), but then again I'm not that obsessed with you or your fantasies.

By all means, please do go back. I'm perfectly willing to defend the things that I believe, while you try to obscure what you believe.

JB
09-27-2011, 03:03 PM
Liberal hippies who didn't believe the actual threat that was posed by these extremists. And then they bought into the propaganda the Iranians fed them and spouted it off on national tv.

It made me sick to my stomach watching that shit.Glad to hear it. I thought I was the only one.

They're from my area and I've had enough with the local coverage.