PDA

View Full Version : Transgendered want rights to serve in the military



Pages : 1 [2]

txradioguy
10-07-2011, 06:29 AM
Um,many gay people are Lawyers,doctors,police,and other occupations.

The APA in the 70's said there is nothing wrong with being gay.

And that has to do with serving in the military how exactly?

AmPat
10-07-2011, 10:57 AM
You can't be responsible for the thoughts of others, but I assume that you can and will set a good example. What I can't imagine is how you would come off as sincere, if you harbor animosity towards one or more minorities within the military.

See? There you go again making an ASSumption out of yourself. Don't project your paranoia on me. I am a professional Soldier and Officer. Your juvenile and ignorant assumptions don't apply to me and never will. Your responses and false conclusions reflect stereotypes borrowed from other ignorant imbeciles. You don't have a clue about military life, culture and values. Keep your ignorance in check, it'll serve you well.:cool:

Odysseus
10-07-2011, 12:41 PM
(smilie for mildly amused) I actually meant that I was and am suspicious that it's a common sentiment, not that I was suspicious of you. You I suspect of arguing for the sake of argument.
It's not a common sentiment. We don't like any program that promotes people without merit, but the armed forces don't do affirmative action. That's one of the reason that African-Americans and Latinos like the military, because their accomplishments are not suspect. They get where they are on their own merits, not the largess of guilty white liberals. I argue with you for one reason: I am right about this and you are wrong.

Um,many gay people are Lawyers,doctors,police,and other occupations.

The APA in the 70's said there is nothing wrong with being gay.
When was the last time that you had to take a shower with your lawyer?

You can't be responsible for the thoughts of others, but I assume that you can and will set a good example. What I can't imagine is how you would come off as sincere, if you harbor animosity towards one or more minorities within the military.
We don't harbor animosity. I can believe that homosexuality iis incompatible with military service without being a bigot, just as I can believe that many other physical or mental conditions or orientations are not compatible. An avowed anarchist would probably not do well in basic training, for example. A blind, deaf or mute individual would be severely constrained in the scope of duties that they could assume, so much so, in fact, that they would be ineffectual as Soldiers. Even some degree of color blindness is a bar to enlistment (you have to be able to tell the blue training ordnance from the green live ordnance, for example). People whose sexual orientation will disrupt their organizations are also not a good fit, no matter how much they give to Democratic campaign committees. It's not about you.

lacarnut
10-07-2011, 12:55 PM
If the length and nature of someone's military service is not appropriate for this discussion, per the mod, then neither is that which made me ineligible.

But since you have been so nice, between the ages of 16 and 23 I had a physical disorder which caused malnutrition and electrolyte imbalances. It was surgically corrected when I was 23, but damaged my liver and kidneys in the process.

I also have the world's flattest feet if that's really an issue.

Now that I have answered your question, will you answer one of mine?
I answered it in the Vets thread....those that have served and where.

hai
10-07-2011, 02:34 PM
Well goody for them. They can be gay in the public sector. They have no right to serve in the military and be gay at the same time. Military Service is not a right but a privilege, no matter how you, Nova or any other freak activist want to claim it is.

And who is the APA and why should I care about their, and for that matter your, deviant view of life?

American Psychological Association

In about the 70's they removed gay from the DSM.

Zathras
10-07-2011, 02:49 PM
American Psychological Association

In about the 70's they removed gay from the DSM.

Too bad....it needs to go back on that list judging by the actions of you, Nova and the rest of the freak activists who want this to happen.

Military service is not a right and claiming it to be is a lie. So logically, you, Nova and any other degenerate claiming that it is are lying sacks of shit that should be ignored.

hai
10-07-2011, 03:04 PM
Too bad....it needs to go back on that list judging by the actions of you, Nova and the rest of the freak activists who want this to happen.

Military service is not a right and claiming it to be is a lie. So logically, you, Nova and any other degenerate claiming that it is are lying sacks of shit that should be ignored.


And you are a bigot and a homophobe.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd401/suberuberpro/Imafraidthediagnosisisbutthurt.jpg

lacarnut
10-07-2011, 03:58 PM
And you are a bigot and a homophobe.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd401/suberuberpro/Imafraidthediagnosisisbutthurt.jpg

Sounds like you are past due for your tutti fruitti stupid pills.

Odysseus
10-07-2011, 04:03 PM
American Psychological Association

In about the 70's they removed gay from the DSM.

As a result of intense pressure by gay activists, not as a result of any new research or medical findings.

Zathras
10-07-2011, 04:44 PM
And you are a bigot and a homophobe.

Homophobe? Not me. The word "phobe" comes from the word phobia which means you're afraid of the subject it is attached to. I do not fear gays. I pity them for their lifestyle choice, which is what gay is, a lifestyle choice. Nothing more, nothing less.

And you calling me a bigot? Well, I'll just put that where I put the rest of your opinions. In the garbage with the rest of the trash.


http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd401/suberuberpro/Imafraidthediagnosisisbutthurt.jpg

Wow, what are you, 11? Do everyone a favor and grow the fuck up little boy.

Zathras
10-07-2011, 04:47 PM
Sounds like you are past due for your tutti fruitti stupid pills.

No, he's been taking the stupid pills ever since he came back here. It's time for him to stop taking the stupid pills and start taking the Grow the Fuck Up pills.

CueSi
10-07-2011, 05:07 PM
And you are a bigot and a homophobe.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd401/suberuberpro/Imafraidthediagnosisisbutthurt.jpg

I'm reposting this for your own good:

hai, I've given you as much help as I can offer, now the help is gonna turn into rope. Most people on the internet don't give an oven baked shit about your mental shortcomings, especially if you're an Aspie. You're espousing pro-gay views on a conservative website. I don't know if you know what conservative means, but on this forum it means they don't care, if they're nice. If they're not, they pretty much want you to fuck off and die. So, you can say you're a member of whatever dA anti-troll thing you want, but. . .here, if you don't dance to the tune that's called, you're a troll. Or something like that.

~QC

hai
10-07-2011, 06:15 PM
I'm reposting this for your own good:

hai, I've given you as much help as I can offer, now the help is gonna turn into rope. Most people on the internet don't give an oven baked shit about your mental shortcomings, especially if you're an Aspie. You're espousing pro-gay views on a conservative website. I don't know if you know what conservative means, but on this forum it means they don't care, if they're nice. If they're not, they pretty much want you to fuck off and die. So, you can say you're a member of whatever dA anti-troll thing you want, but. . .here, if you don't dance to the tune that's called, you're a troll. Or something like that.

~QC

Well it's not my fault if i had a disablity. Why are you people discriminating against me for having a disablity?

Because all i know is on other forums,i'm shown respect for having a disablity,like some have a hugbox

Novaheart
10-07-2011, 08:26 PM
Homophobe? Not me. The word "phobe" comes from the word phobia which means you're afraid of the subject it is attached to. .

Yeah , yeah, yeah. Well, it's a made up word as is the meaning, so going to its greek roots isn't really intellectual. It's jargon. I don't like the word, but it's the word which means what it means. You can call a person a homophobe, or you can call him an anti-gay bigot jackass. Homophobe is shorter.

Wei Wu Wei
10-07-2011, 08:40 PM
Homophobe? Not me. The word "phobe" comes from the word phobia which means you're afraid of the subject it is attached to. I do not fear gays. I pity them for their lifestyle choice, which is what gay is, a lifestyle choice. Nothing more, nothing less.

The stupid word games are pointless, but for the record, you are afraid of homosexuality. Hatred comes from fear and insecurity. People who are truly comfortable, confident, and unafraid aren't angry al the time or shitting all over everyone else, because they don't need to.

Dogs growl when they feel threatened, not when they feel comfortable.

It has something to do with your masculinity, it needs a lot of defending it seems.

CueSi
10-07-2011, 08:41 PM
Well it's not my fault if i had a disablity. Why are you people discriminating against me for having a disablity?

Because all i know is on other forums,i'm shown respect for having a disablity,like some have a hugbox

They're mostly discriminating because they don't agree with your ideas. On this forum not being in total agreement means no respect. Ever.

Every forum and it's corresponding culture is different. This one's harsher.

~QC

CueSi
10-07-2011, 08:45 PM
The stupid word games are pointless, but for the record, you are afraid of homosexuality. Hatred comes from fear and insecurity. People who are truly comfortable, confident, and unafraid aren't angry al the time or shitting all over everyone else, because they don't need to.

Dogs growl when they feel threatened, not when they feel comfortable.

It has something to do with your masculinity, it needs a lot of defending it seems.

Don't tell someone they're afraid of something were they're not. Someone can simply not like someone w/o being afraid of them.

Take for example... you. People here don't like you, would you say they're afraid of you? No. They don't like you because you stand for an ideology they don't agree with. And I'm betting that's how many feel about homosexuality. Homosexuality=Liberalism for some. :p

Maybe some here have a genuine fear, but don't assume it.

~QC

Rockntractor
10-07-2011, 08:48 PM
Well it's not my fault if i had a disablity. Why are you people discriminating against me for having a disablity?

Because all i know is on other forums,i'm shown respect for having a disablity,like some have a hugbox

It's a tough crowd, don't take things so personal and besides I told you no good would come from you participating in this type of thread. You will have to grow a thicker skin if you want to discuss controversial topics.

hai
10-07-2011, 09:08 PM
It's a tough crowd, don't take things so personal and besides I told you no good would come from you participating in this type of thread. You will have to grow a thicker skin if you want to discuss controversial topics.

K,of course i noticed when i make a thread about guitars and so forth,they don't seem to get a lot of traffic.

Sorry,i'll probably stay only in the lounge area.

Rockntractor
10-07-2011, 09:14 PM
Yeah , yeah, yeah. Well, it's a made up word as is the meaning, so going to its greek roots isn't really intellectual. It's jargon. I don't like the word, but it's the word which means what it means. You can call a person a homophobe, or you can call him an anti-gay bigot jackass. Homophobe is shorter.

How about an AGBJ ?:confused:

Novaheart
10-07-2011, 09:22 PM
Maybe some here have a genuine fear, but don't assume it.

~QC

I would call the dire predictions for the military without discrimination against gay people to be fear. According to them they are afraid that the military won't be the best that it can be, if straight guys have to shower with gay guys (like they didn't in the gym before and after they are in the Army, and like they weren't anyway, but I digress).

BTW, my dad who was to my knowledge completely heterosexual even though he was in a fraternity and went to an all male college, despised gang showers and toilets which had little or no privacy. It wasn't that he was overly modest, he and my mom have gone to a nude beach, and they even got asked to clothe themselves by a park ranger on Assateague when they decided to make their own nude beach. He simply preferred privacy while showering and sitting on potty.

Novaheart
10-07-2011, 09:28 PM
How about an AGBJ ?:confused:

Yeah, no one will decide that AGBJ means "a good blow job".

Zathras
10-07-2011, 09:32 PM
The stupid word games are pointless, but for the record, you are afraid of homosexuality. Hatred comes from fear and insecurity. People who are truly comfortable, confident, and unafraid aren't angry al the time or shitting all over everyone else, because they don't need to.

Dogs growl when they feel threatened, not when they feel comfortable.

It has something to do with your masculinity, it needs a lot of defending it seems.

Only in your mind Wee Wee, only in your mind.

Zathras
10-07-2011, 09:34 PM
Yeah , yeah, yeah. Well, it's a made up word as is the meaning, so going to its greek roots isn't really intellectual. It's jargon. I don't like the word, but it's the word which means what it means. You can call a person a homophobe, or you can call him an anti-gay bigot jackass. Homophobe is shorter.

Yawn....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.....oh, were you talking?

Wei Wu Wei
10-07-2011, 09:39 PM
Don't tell someone they're afraid of something were they're not. Someone can simply not like someone w/o being afraid of them.

Take for example... you. People here don't like you, would you say they're afraid of you? No. They don't like you because you stand for an ideology they don't agree with. And I'm betting that's how many feel about homosexuality. Homosexuality=Liberalism for some. :p

Maybe some here have a genuine fear, but don't assume it.

~QC

People who get furious with someone for voicing a different viewpoint do so because they have a fear of their own ideology being wrong, they feel their worldview is "under attack", and they get defensive and thus combative.

I have liberal friends who don't really understand politics very well, they just know "they don't like conservatives". They can't really explain the issues, they aren't well read, they are just blind democrat party bots. If Fox News is airing, they absolutely cannot stand it. They get frustrated, angry, they yell at the tv and demand that it is turned off.

Anger is nothing but fear turned active.

CueSi
10-07-2011, 10:01 PM
People who get furious with someone for voicing a different viewpoint do so because they have a fear of their own ideology being wrong, they feel their worldview is "under attack", and they get defensive and thus combative.

I have liberal friends who don't really understand politics very well, they just know "they don't like conservatives". They can't really explain the issues, they aren't well read, they are just blind democrat party bots. If Fox News is airing, they absolutely cannot stand it. They get frustrated, angry, they yell at the tv and demand that it is turned off.

Anger is nothing but fear turned active.

Ummm, I don't know what pseudo-pop psychology you're using, but from some, I'm not seeing fear of the other person being wrong.That may be true for you, but I wouldn't apply that as a hard and fast rule.

Ignorance, maybe. But Fear?

~QC

fettpett
10-08-2011, 06:58 AM
Ummm, I don't know what pseudo-pop psychology you're using, but from some, I'm not seeing fear of the other person being wrong.That may be true for you, but I wouldn't apply that as a hard and fast rule.

Ignorance, maybe. But Fear?

~QC

more like his verbal diarrhea

AmPat
10-08-2011, 09:43 AM
I would call the dire predictions for the military without discrimination against gay people to be fear. According to them they are afraid that the military won't be the best that it can be, if straight guys have to shower with gay guys (like they didn't in the gym before and after they are in the Army, and like they weren't anyway, but I digress). I'd call it a reasonable concern. You do know the difference don't you?:rolleyes:


BTW, my dad who was to my knowledge completely heterosexual even though he was in a fraternity and went to an all male college, despised gang showers and toilets which had little or no privacy. It wasn't that he was overly modest, he and my mom have gone to a nude beach, and they even got asked to clothe themselves by a park ranger on Assateague when they decided to make their own nude beach. He simply preferred privacy while showering and sitting on potty.

TMI!:eek:

Novaheart
10-08-2011, 10:17 AM
Yawn....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.....oh, were you talking?

I didn't know you could sleep in that position..... or breathe for that matter.

Novaheart
10-08-2011, 10:30 AM
I have liberal friends who don't really understand politics very well, they just know "they don't like conservatives". They can't really explain the issues, they aren't well read, they are just blind democrat party bots. If Fox News is airing, they absolutely cannot stand it. They get frustrated, angry, they yell at the tv and demand that it is turned off.



My mom is very intelligent and remains sharp at 82, if she is a little less able to follow a long and drawn out sentence with many clauses, and/or conditions like some of the ones we use in forum postings. Actually, she's able to follow it, it simply annoys here that I speak like I write. BTAIM, she exhibits the behavior you are talking about in the quoted selection.

If I interrupt a generalization to point out that Ronald Reagan did one thing right, or that there were sound reasons and ideas included or wrapped in an otherwise abhorrent philosophy, she doesn't want to hear it. If she's tired, she'll even behave rather childishly at time.

For my part, if you are saying IRL something I consider wrong or wrongheaded, I will unleash a rather loud and forceful barrage of facts, which I suppose can have the same effect as sticking ones fingers in ones ears.

The real problem is that other people are crap. If they would just be cool, logical, and intelligent then we wouldn't have a reason to have spirited discussions about politics and civics. Everyone would already be behaving himself. But instead, we have to seal with Islamic militants, other religious fanatics, illegal aliens, hostile and irrational minorities, bigoted majorities, and rodents.

Zathras
10-08-2011, 11:26 AM
I didn't know you could sleep in that position..... or breathe for that matter.

I sleep quite well sitting at the computer when someone who's so full of themself is constantly spewing bullshit online. It's even a cure for insomnia, even better than watching soccer in that respect.

Odysseus
10-08-2011, 12:27 PM
Well it's not my fault if i had a disablity. Why are you people discriminating against me for having a disablity?

Because all i know is on other forums,i'm shown respect for having a disablity,like some have a hugbox
Having having a disability doesn't excuse you from the need to support your arguments. When you post here, you are judged by the content of your posts, not the impediments that you overcome to make them. We don't do affirmative action here. You've just had your first taste of real equality. Deal with it.

The stupid word games are pointless, but for the record, you are afraid of homosexuality. Hatred comes from fear and insecurity. People who are truly comfortable, confident, and unafraid aren't angry al the time or shitting all over everyone else, because they don't need to.

Dogs growl when they feel threatened, not when they feel comfortable.

It has something to do with your masculinity, it needs a lot of defending it seems.
Two points, both of which refute your psychobabble:
I don't hate gays. I have stated, repeatedly, my objections to the policy change, and hatred is not on the list. For your edification, here is the recap, again:


DADT repeal will not enhance readiness in any way, and will, in fact, prove detrimental to it.
It will force troops into intimate contact wth Soldiers whose sexual orientation makes such contact problematical.


This discomfort is not based on prejudice, but is the result of legitmate concerns about sexual behavior in places in which sex was previously forbidden and the ban was enforced through gender segregation, which will no longer be possible with persons of multiple orientations sharing the same facilities.
The loss of these personnel will not be made up by the gain in gay troops.

The repeal will also force the military to incur additional expenses in order to deal with the higher incidences of physical and mental health issues that gays bring to the force. These have been repeatedly cited and are documented by the CDC.
The experience with integrating women into the force demonstrates that sexual conduct between troops undermines unit cohesion, morale and effectiveness and shows that the addition of gay troops will increase training distractors that we have already seen and impose new ones, to include:

additional training requirements in order to impose a gay-friendly attitude on the force
increased rates of sexual misconduct resulting in UCMJ actions
politically sensitive disciplinary problems which wil put leaders in difficult positions in terms of enforcing good order and discipline and expose them to abuses of the reporting system.
The precedent of creating a "right" to serve in the armed forces will open the door to other groups which have previously been deemed as not fit for service, to include:

transgenders
physically or mentally handicapped
persons with chronic health issues
persons whose prior conduct bars them from enlistment

Feel free to address anything said there, but please refrain from the psychobabble.

Point number two is that hatred is not simply an outgrowth of fear. People can love what they fear as easily as hate it (ask anyone who's ever been married :D). Hatred can also stem from revulsion, or anger. For example, when jihadi suicide bombers targeted children in Iraq, my hatred of them did come from fear, but from anger and disgust. I had no fear of them, as they were not going to get close enough to me to do that, but I hated them nonetheless. Human emotions are too complex to be boiled down to a series of simplistic causal relationships.

I would call the dire predictions for the military without discrimination against gay people to be fear. According to them they are afraid that the military won't be the best that it can be, if straight guys have to shower with gay guys (like they didn't in the gym before and after they are in the Army, and like they weren't anyway, but I digress).
Once again, you fail to read the actual reasons, and make up your own straw man arguments. See above.


People who get furious with someone for voicing a different viewpoint do so because they have a fear of their own ideology being wrong, they feel their worldview is "under attack", and they get defensive and thus combative.

I have liberal friends who don't really understand politics very well, they just know "they don't like conservatives". They can't really explain the issues, they aren't well read, they are just blind democrat party bots. If Fox News is airing, they absolutely cannot stand it. They get frustrated, angry, they yell at the tv and demand that it is turned off.

Anger is nothing but fear turned active.
Your liberal friends aren't afraid of conservatives, they are ignorant, and repulsed by what they have been told conservatives are (and if you want that to stop, then stop indoctrinating them). They hate because they need to hate in order to justify their status as morally superior beings. They hate because they need someone to feel superior to, and they have been taught that conservatives are hateful.

BTW, Muslims never feared Jews until 1967, when the Israelis won one of the most lopsided victories in history. Before then, Muslim antisemitism was based on a blind belief in the superiority of Islam and the propaganda in the Qur'an and the Hadiths about the inferiority of Jews. Hate isn't just fear, it's also contempt, revulsion, anger or any one of a dozen emotions.

My mom is very intelligent and remains sharp at 82, if she is a little less able to follow a long and drawn out sentence with many clauses, and/or conditions like some of the ones we use in forum postings. Actually, she's able to follow it, it simply annoys here that I speak like I write. BTAIM, she exhibits the behavior you are talking about in the quoted selection.

If I interrupt a generalization to point out that Ronald Reagan did one thing right, or that there were sound reasons and ideas included or wrapped in an otherwise abhorrent philosophy, she doesn't want to hear it. If she's tired, she'll even behave rather childishly at time.

For my part, if you are saying IRL something I consider wrong or wrongheaded, I will unleash a rather loud and forceful barrage of facts, which I suppose can have the same effect as sticking ones fingers in ones ears.
Unleashing a loud barrage of facts doesn't have the same effect as sticking your fingers in your ears. Facts can be discussed and debated, but when you stick your fingers in your ears, you hear nothing, and cannot even be sure if your "facts" stand up to scrutiny. This is why you keep getting your head handed to you in these discussions, because you spout inanities, define them as facts and then refuse to read anyone else's responses. When I cited the CDC as a source for gay health stats, you ignored it, not once, but several times, to repeat your talking point that only right wing sites contained that information. When I summarized my objections to DADT repeal, you continued to parrot the lines about prejudice, even though anyone reading that summary would see that it isn't about prejudice, but about specific issues which even gays acknowledge in their more honest moments.


The real problem is that other people are crap. If they would just be cool, logical, and intelligent then we wouldn't have a reason to have spirited discussions about politics and civics. Everyone would already be behaving himself. But instead, we have to seal with Islamic militants, other religious fanatics, illegal aliens, hostile and irrational minorities, bigoted majorities, and rodents.

No, the real problem is that you see other people as crap. People can be cool, logical and intelligent and still draw different conclusions from the same information. This is why we have a system of checks and balances, so that one group doesn't get to impose its will on the others beyond certain basic, universally sanctioned rules. For example, I think that we can all agree that if an 82-year-old couple decide to form their own nude beach, the park rangers are right to tell them to put their clothes back on, and quickly. People aren't crap, they just aren't the way that you want them to be, and nothing that you do will ever change that. Wei's idols have spent centuries trying, from the French Revolutionaries who tried to completely remake the people of France, to the Soviets, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Hugo Chavez and a host of others who thought that if they piled the corpses just right, they'd be able to reach that unreachable star. Stop trying to make people into what you want them to be and simply accept them for who they are, especially if you want them to accept you for who you are.

CueSi
10-09-2011, 12:09 AM
I would call the dire predictions for the military without discrimination against gay people to be fear. According to them they are afraid that the military won't be the best that it can be, if straight guys have to shower with gay guys (like they didn't in the gym before and after they are in the Army, and like they weren't anyway, but I digress).

BTW, my dad who was to my knowledge completely heterosexual even though he was in a fraternity and went to an all male college, despised gang showers and toilets which had little or no privacy. It wasn't that he was overly modest, he and my mom have gone to a nude beach, and they even got asked to clothe themselves by a park ranger on Assateague when they decided to make their own nude beach. He simply preferred privacy while showering and sitting on potty.

I think it's rooted in pessimism and seeing the worst of people's natures. You spend 2-3 decades seeing people brought down by one vice or another, and others who don't deserve it taking up worthy people's positions.

Couple that with ignorance, and you have the gloom and doom scenarios. Every supposedly shining lamppost of progress has a dark side and that's what's being exposed here. It's rooted in reality to a degree, no doubt - - but while some are ignoring it, others - - that's all they see.

Me, I have faith that the professional soldier won't collapse or turn into a raging bull at the thought of showering with a gay man. I have faith that the soldiers now freed by the repeal will continue to be professionals, working with a new focus, with brainspace no longer needed to concentrate on keeping an illusion or lie together, that they'll continue to do as well as we've done. I'm hoping we're better, more mature people than this.

But, all that being said: I don't think this extends to transgendered people.

~QC

Rockntractor
10-09-2011, 12:11 AM
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/forums/deadhorse.jpg