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View Full Version : Tiangong-1 launch betrays China's earthly ambitions



djones520
09-30-2011, 09:51 AM
The successful launch of the Tiangong-1 space station by China is an event of huge geopolitical significance, just as the orbiting of China's first astronaut was in 2003.

It can be argued that China's achievements, though impressive, only demonstrate how far China lags behind Russia and the US.

Russia after all launched its first cosmonaut in 1961 and its first space station in 1971. The US achieved these landmarks in 1962 and 1973, and, at just over eight tonnes, Tiangong-1 is smaller than the American Skylab station launched in 1973.

But to focus on the 40-year gap is to ignore what lies behind China's space programme, and the Chinese governments' determination to achieve a series of dramatic space objectives that will confirm the country's status as a new superpower.

The space programme also offers clues to the thinking behind China's long-term foreign policy goals and its strategic logic.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-15089720

8 years from their first man in space to their first space station. They're not wasting anytime.

marv
09-30-2011, 09:59 AM
8 years from their first man in space to their first space station. They're not wasting anytime.

Of course not, what with all the technology they can beg, borrow - or steal!

But the real danger for the time being is the junk they'll leave up there. With all the debris already in orbit posing dangers to the ISS, satellites, and even launches, we need to remember the recent launch of a satellite which they promptly impacted with another satellite leaving all that debris in orbit.

In Missouri, if you litter the highways, you're arrested. Now, how about orbit?

Bailey
09-30-2011, 10:04 AM
Let them start from scratch then get back to me or ask the great space fairing country that is Australia to help them out since they invented everything. :D

djones520
09-30-2011, 10:10 AM
I say it shouldn't matter how they got their technology. The fact is they have it, and their working pretty quickly with it. We need to be concerned. They have strong ambitions of establishing a moon base. We have... none?

Not something we want to let them get.

Starbuck
09-30-2011, 12:06 PM
Chinese efforts almost don't matter. They are doomed, and there is apparently nothing they can do about it.

The plethora of males, the result of the one child policy, has tilted the demographics past the tipping point:

The other unintended consequence is that One-Child has radically altered China’s age structure, giving it many more old people than young. In 2005, the country’s median age was 32-years-old. By 2050, it will be 45-years-old, and a full quarter of the populace will be over 65. That means 330 million senior citizens, most of whom will have little or no family to care for them.

There's more:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/lost-girls_593650.html?page=3

Dan D. Doty
09-30-2011, 02:54 PM
Chinese efforts almost don't matter. They are doomed, and there is apparently nothing they can do about it.

The plethora of males, the result of the one child policy, has tilted the demographics past the tipping point:


There's more:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/lost-girls_593650.html?page=3

This is a concern that the world should be worried about.

Sonnabend
10-02-2011, 08:07 PM
1. It's space faring
2. That space station is Chinese, not American, so unless you want to be left behind, you better get it in gear
3. They are not doomed, and in fact are taking up where you left off forty years ago. This meme on how the rest of
the world doesnt matter is another example of this idiotic idea that anything not invented in the US has no value.

If I were you, I'd get busy, otherwise you will find those irrelevant other nations will be far ahead in space developement. Along with space tech comes aerospace R and D.

Lastly, it may very well be that they may have stolen or copied plans and technology, and made it work.

Where's the US space station and when is it going into orbit? That's a question you should ask NASA.

Oh, and, Bailey.... One of the fastest growing sciences today, and one of the most important, genetic surgery, along with genetic research that will lead to cures, is a field that is seeing great advances

And none of it is being done in the US. Resting on your laurels over what was done forty years ago , is no way to keep up in modern times. Those other nations you dismiss with such contempt are leaving you behind.

Best get cracking, hm??.

fettpett
10-02-2011, 10:06 PM
1. It's space faring
2. That space station is Chinese, not American, so unless you want to be left behind, you better get it in gear
3. They are not doomed, and in fact are taking up where you left off forty years ago. This meme on how the rest of
the world doesnt matter is another example of this idiotic idea that anything not invented in the US has no value.

If I were you, I'd get busy, otherwise you will find those irrelevant other nations will be far ahead in space developement. Along with space tech comes aerospace R and D.

Lastly, it may very well be that they may have stolen or copied plans and technology, and made it work.

Where's the US space station and when is it going into orbit? That's a question you should ask NASA.

Oh, and, Bailey.... One of the fastest growing sciences today, and one of the most important, genetic surgery, along with genetic research that will lead to cures, is a field that is seeing great advances

And none of it is being done in the US. Resting on your laurels over what was done forty years ago , is no way to keep up in modern times. Those other nations you dismiss with such contempt are leaving you behind.

Best get cracking, hm??.

you do know that there are two private American companies that are launching spaceships within the year right? and the ISS is largely American built?

Starbuck
10-02-2011, 11:00 PM
This is a concern that the world should be worried about.

Right. I can't see how it's going to play out, though. I really can't.

As the article points out, the number of Chinese age 20-24 will drop by 45% in 10 years. That's a huge decrease. And with the reality of having only 2 workers for every retiree on the horizon, it seems to me that there just won't be enough squirrels on wheel, so to speak.

The Chinese know all this, though. And maybe that's what will make them dangerous. I mean, if they can't grow internally - and they can't - maybe they will attempt to grow by annexing a few other countries.:(

Australia seems like a good bet. ....Waltzing Matirda, Waltzing Matirda............:D

Sonnabend
10-02-2011, 11:09 PM
No it is not.

The ISS is a combination of THREE projects, the Russian MIR 2, the European Colombus system including the Japanese Kibo lab and the US Freedom module. It is run by an international agency.

It is NOT largely American built, and is a cooperative project involving Russia, Canada, Japan, Europe and the US, is operated by an International agency To date astronauts from fifteen nations have been aboard.

Whilst the US has been a part of the picture, it is a joint operation.

I am very happy to hear that private enterprise is on the ball, I would dearly love to see the day the US does it again and lands the first humans on Mars.

Snap it up, will ya??? I ain't getting any younger......:D

Sonnabend
10-02-2011, 11:52 PM
The Moon landings were a crowning moment for the US and for the world. No one will ever forget those incredible moments.

Yet what is forgotten, and ignored or conveniently brushed over, is that that one moment was the end result of the work and dedication of so many. Look at Apollo 13. Her retrieval and the safety of her crew depended on many critical factors, but had not men and women overseas watched, monitored and relayed essential data when you passed into the ecliptic, the US could have reacquired signal to find three dead crewmen.

When Armstrong walked on the Moon, he did so with the help of others who watched his back whilst you slept.

All I am saying, and what is being so conveniently ignored, is that that help, that work and dedication is thrown away with the words 'we did it all"

You did NOT.

Many scientific advances these days are made by people OUTSIDE the US, yet all i seem to hear is that the US did this, the US did that..is it so hard for you to acknowledge and accept that you do not do anything alone, and that even today, advances in space technology are a JOINT effort.?

Look at this statement:


and the ISS is largely American built? No it is not, and was not, and never was. There is a world outside the borders of the US, there are people who accomplish great things, and their achievements are NO LESS VALID.

This is a list of ALL the nations with a stake in the ISS, and have all had a part in its success.

Belgium
Brazil
Canada
Denmark
France
Germany
Italy
Japan
The Netherlands
Norway
Russia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
The United Kingdom
The United States

Source (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/cooperation/index.html)

National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)

NASA headquarters, in Washington, D.C., exercises management over the NASA field Centers, establishes management policies, and analyzes all phases of the space station program.

Roscosmos, the Russian Federal Space Agency

Roscosmos oversees all Russian human space flight activities. Moscow Mission Control is the primary Russian facility for the control of human space flight. It is located in Korolev, outside of Moscow.

Canadian Space Agency (CSA)

The MSS Operations Complex in Longueuil, Quebec, provides the resources, equipment, and expertise needed for the engineering and monitoring of the Mobile Servicing System as well as for crew training.

European Space Agency (ESA)

The European Space Research and Technology Centre, the largest site and the technical heart of the ESA, is in Noordwijk, The Netherlands. Most ESA projects are developed here by more than 2,000 specialists.

Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA)

In addition to the JAXA headquarters in Tokyo and other field centers throughout the country, Tsukuba Space Center and Tanegashima launch Facility are JAXA’s primary ISS facilities.

Credit where it is due. Is asking that so hard? Hm?

ironhorsedriver
10-03-2011, 07:48 AM
The Chinese are definitely going to be a major player in Space. Good, maybe it will fire up a more competent US President. It really does disturb me to know that we can't even put our Astronauts in space any longer.

fettpett
10-03-2011, 08:56 AM
I did not say that other countries didn't have a stake in the ISS, only that the majority of the modules were either built in the US or financed wholly or partially by the US including ESA and Russian modules. All the other countries were important and continue to be.

Sonnabend
10-03-2011, 04:35 PM
Whatever, Fett, grown tired of you.

fettpett
10-03-2011, 08:04 PM
Whatever, Fett, grown tired of you.

:rolleyes::rolleyes: The US footed the bill for most of the ISS, both building and putting it in space. get over it.

does it mean that the other countries contributions are any less? no. You're trying to make it sound like the US didn't do as much as we did. Up until July WE'VE done almost everything. Russian's put up a couple, Japan did as well, rest WE put up there.

It's bull that this fucking idiot we have in the White House shut down the Shuttles before we had a viable alternative and canceled the Atlas V rocket program when it was close to being done (which is the program that L-M is continuing as a private operation).

Starbuck
10-03-2011, 09:04 PM
The Chinese are definitely going to be a major player in Space. Good, maybe it will fire up a more competent US President. It really does disturb me to know that we can't even put our Astronauts in space any longer.

While I disagree that the Chinese will ever become a major player, I do sympathize with your feelings about American astronauts left stranded on an empty launch pad with their thumb out.

In the future will there be a movie about the Last American Astronaut, and will the theater goers leave silently in tears? Maybe.:(

Rockntractor
10-03-2011, 09:08 PM
While I disagree that the Chinese will ever become a major player, I do sympathize with your feelings about American astronauts left stranded on an empty launch pad with their thumb out.

In the future will there be a movie about the Last American Astronaut, and will the theater goers leave silently in tears? Maybe.:(

One day Obama will leave like a bad chili dinner and maybe we can build things back up again.

Sonnabend
10-03-2011, 09:16 PM
Fett, if you will be so kind as to post data on the financing and resources involved , I will read and agree with you if that data bears you out.

Fair?

Rock: I hope so.

fettpett
10-04-2011, 09:06 AM
Fett, if you will be so kind as to post data on the financing and resources involved , I will read and agree with you if that data bears you out.

Fair?

Rock: I hope so.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/main/onthestation/facts_and_figures.html


As of August 2011, there have been 135 launches to the space station since the launch of the first module, Zarya, at 1:40 a.m. EST on Nov. 20, 1998: 74 Russian vehicles, 37 space shuttles, two European and two Japanese vehicles. The final space shuttle mission July 8-21 by Atlantis delivered 4 1/2 tons of supplies in the Raffaello logistics module.

most of the Russian launches i believe have been unmanned supplies, where as all 38 space shuttle ones have been manned.

http://historical.whatitcosts.com/facts-space-station-pg2.htm

As in any government project, the ultimate cost is predicted to be far higher than the original expectations. And with so many different governments involved with varying currency values the true overall cost will probably never be certain.

In the United States, NASA reports only the costs relating to the mission, mission integration, and launch facility processing as expenses for the ICC. Despite the fact that the Space Shuttle was and will be used in the future almost exclusively for ICC missions (35 of 41 missions), NASA considers the Space Shuttle Program an independent project from the ISS. For this reason, it does not include the cost of the Space Shuttle Program in their ISS costs.

International Space Station Costs (NASA) Total: $54 to 59 billion

1994 – 2005 - $26 billion
2006 – 2007 - $4 billion
2008 – 2016 - $24 to 29 billion (projected)

Space Shuttle Program: $38 billion

Total estimated costs:

U.S.: $100 billion
Europe: $14 billion
Japan: $10 billion
Russia: Unknown
Canada: $2 billion


part of the problem with nailing down figures is that only the EU has released any cost and puts the total cost at about 100 billion Euro's