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namvet
10-05-2011, 01:39 PM
BERLIN – Prosecutors have reopened hundreds of dormant investigations of former Nazi death camp guards and others who might now be charged under a new precedent set by the conviction of retired U.S. autoworker John Demjanjuk, The Associated Press has learned.

Given the advanced age of all of the suspects -- the youngest are in their 80s -- the head of the German prosecutors' office dedicated to investigating Nazi war crimes told the AP that authorities are not even waiting until the Demjanjuk appeals process is over.

But the current generation of prosecutors and judges in Germany has shown a new willingness to pursue even the lower ranks, something applauded by Zuroff.



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/10/05/hundreds-nazi-cases-reopened/#ixzz1Zvj4w5nj



http://a57.foxnews.com/www.foxnews.com/images/root_images/0/0/100511_nuguardsofdeath_20111005_131351.jpg

noonwitch
10-05-2011, 04:05 PM
I don't see the point of prosecuting these guys over 60 years later, when they are elderly and have not posed any kind of threat to anyone since the war ended.

Yet, it is good that the newer generations of Germans want to make it clear that they are not turning a blind eye to past crimes against humanity that occurred in their country in the 1930s and 40s. The nation itself paid a heavy price after the war for what they did-half their country was tormented for decades by the USSR, several of their cities were totally leveled by allied air attacks, and they will be mocked forever in american animation for their crimes.

namvet
10-05-2011, 04:12 PM
I don't see the point of prosecuting these guys over 60 years later, when they are elderly and have not posed any kind of threat to anyone since the war ended.

Yet, it is good that the newer generations of Germans want to make it clear that they are not turning a blind eye to past crimes against humanity that occurred in their country in the 1930s and 40s. The nation itself paid a heavy price after the war for what they did-half their country was tormented for decades by the USSR, several of their cities were totally leveled by allied air attacks, and they will be mocked forever in american animation for their crimes.

no time limit on murder. I say drag em to count

djones520
10-05-2011, 04:16 PM
6 million murdered Noon. There is no statute of limitations on that.

DumbAss Tanker
10-09-2011, 10:03 AM
Yeah, no statute of limitations on genocide, however just how good is ID on cases that have been cold for 65 years? The perps are 85-ish on up, and they can't get capital punishment from any European court, so this is just a trip to a different old folks home for the few that are still alive. Yeah, it is pretty much a waste of time. I don't buy the "But this sends a message" line, if that were true there wouldn't have been any genocide committed since 1945 and only a moron would believe that.

namvet
10-09-2011, 10:29 AM
and how many of them are still living here in the states??? don't think we'll ever know for sure. years back they flushed one out here, down in the city. turned into a stand off as this old guy came out flashing a gun. so they don't wanna go back.

Novaheart
10-09-2011, 10:33 AM
6 million murdered Noon. There is no statute of limitations on that.

However, Germany like the US has the enemy inside its gates in 2011 in the form of Muslims. Is the investigation and potential prosecution of these heretofore non-priority cases allegedly a warning to the Muslims that their criminal activities will not go unpunished? Or is it more likely that it's similar to the SPLC ranting about the KKK while ethnic mobs terrorize storekeepers and beach goers in various cities?

Seriously, what is to be accomplished by this? Rehabilitation? Punishment? Politics?

djones520
10-09-2011, 10:44 AM
However, Germany like the US has the enemy inside its gates in 2011 in the form of Muslims. Is the investigation and potential prosecution of these heretofore non-priority cases allegedly a warning to the Muslims that their criminal activities will not go unpunished? Or is it more likely that it's similar to the SPLC ranting about the KKK while ethnic mobs terrorize storekeepers and beach goers in various cities?

Seriously, what is to be accomplished by this? Rehabilitation? Punishment? Politics?

Closure?

I doubt any of us can get close to knowing what the survivors might be feeling at such news like this, but I've got to imagine that there is some sense of closure.

These guards where the people they saw every day. Not the commandants of the camp, but the guards. They were the ones keeping them in the pens. They were the ones whose faces are stamped in the memory of the survivors. Having them finally held accountable would help me be more at ease, I'd think.

fettpett
10-09-2011, 10:47 AM
Closure?

I doubt any of us can get close to knowing what the survivors might be feeling at such news like this, but I've got to imagine that there is some sense of closure.

These guards where the people they saw every day. Not the commandants of the camp, but the guards. They were the ones keeping them in the pens. They were the ones whose faces are stamped in the memory of the survivors. Having them finally held accountable would help me be more at ease, I'd think.

While I agree with you, it still seems a bit pointless to be going after 80-90 yr olds that are going to die soon anyway...

marv
10-09-2011, 10:47 AM
Seriously, what is to be accomplished by this? Rehabilitation? Punishment? Politics?

Good question. Now let's dig up Benedict Arnold, Jeff Davis, and the commander of the Andersonville POW camp, and hang their bones.

NJCardFan
10-09-2011, 12:35 PM
Why is there no similar movement to find the perpetrators of the massacre of Nanking?

Novaheart
10-09-2011, 12:39 PM
Why is there no similar movement to find the perpetrators of the massacre of Nanking?

In a perverse way, I would think that the WWII generation saw Japan attacking China as an internal squabble. Seriously, there is a billion of them, so who cares? I don't know, I just wanted to add a post to my count. Sio Sumi.

djones520
10-09-2011, 12:41 PM
Why is there no similar movement to find the perpetrators of the massacre of Nanking?

Probably because their most likely dead?

The Japanese Army was devestated in that war, and almost all of the leadership involved in that died before wars end. The only man not to be tried who lived past the war was granted immunity.

But you can bring it up with the UN if you like.

Novaheart
10-09-2011, 12:46 PM
Closure?

I doubt any of us can get close to knowing what the survivors might be feeling at such news like this, but I've got to imagine that there is some sense of closure.


I used to be pretty firm footed in the Nuremburg notion of "just following orders" not being a defense. Then came Oliver North, and about halfway into that I realized that we cannot train men to follow orders without question and then prosecute them for not questioning their orders. As much as I disapproved of what North did, I opposed the political lynching of Oliver North.

djones520
10-09-2011, 12:48 PM
I used to be pretty firm footed in the Nuremburg notion of "just following orders" not being a defense. Then came Oliver North, and about halfway into that I realized that we cannot train men to follow orders without question and then prosecute them for not questioning their orders. As much as I disapproved of what North did, I opposed the political lynching of Oliver North.

We are not trained to follow orders without question. We are trained to follow legal orders without question. Chaining 6 million people up, and gassing them to death can and never has been, even remotely close to resembling a legal order.

Novaheart
10-09-2011, 12:51 PM
But you can bring it up with the UN if you like.

Under the laws of which nation existing in the Nazi era would these men be tried? They are accused of breaking the law in their own time, correct?

djones520
10-09-2011, 12:53 PM
Under the laws of which nation existing in the Nazi era would these men be tried? They are accused of breaking the law in their own time, correct?

The story said their being tried in Germany.

Novaheart
10-09-2011, 01:00 PM
We are not trained to follow orders without question. We are trained to follow legal orders without question.

That's the theory. But what is the reality when a low ranking soldier is given an illegal order by a superior and doesn't have the protection of the courts and the press to refuse? How much is he supposed to risk in standing against that order, especially if he's the only one in his group/camp/army to see it as an illegal order?


Chaining 6 million people up, and gassing them to death can and never has been, even remotely close to resembling a legal order.

I can't find anything which says that John Demjanjuk did that.

Novaheart
10-09-2011, 01:06 PM
The story said their being tried in Germany.

But will they be prosecuted under the German law of their time or ours?

I' not defending these guys. It's simply that it's 70 years later and this feels more like vendetta than justice. How do you prove you didn't do anything wrong? How do they prove you did?

We already had the case of John Demjanuk, identified and convicted as "Ivan the Terrible" except that he wasn't and the Israeli Supreme Court said so.

djones520
10-09-2011, 01:07 PM
That's the theory. But what is the reality when a low ranking soldier is given an illegal order by a superior and doesn't have the protection of the courts and the press to refuse? How much is he supposed to risk in standing against that order, especially if he's the only one in his group/camp/army to see it as an illegal order?


Integrity First. Service Before Self. Excellence in All You Do.

Our Core Values. If you know it is an illegal order, then everyone of those should bind you to resisting that order and taking it up the chain of command. It may be easy for me to say from this chair i'm sitting in right now, but it's something you should do even if faced with the prospect of death at the hands of those whose order you are refusing to carry out.


I can't find anything which says that John Demjanjuk did that.

Well apparently the people who tried him disagreed.

Nubs
10-09-2011, 01:08 PM
I spent a month in Germany this spring. I have to say that Germany is not what found on the history channel. The younger generations of Germans will not strike up a conversation about WWII, but they will openly discuss it if it does come up.

Since WWII, the Germans have taken steps to preserve the camps and even rebuild structures from this period. The only main camp not preserved is Buchenwald for it is part of an English military base. Himmler's SS castle in Wewelsburg was reconstructed and is now a museum/memorial. Germany has accepted their past, they acknowledge it.

It is time to extend forgiveness to the younger generations but still hold those that participated accountable. In 10-15 years, the world needs to finally put it where it belongs, in the past.

Novaheart
10-09-2011, 01:18 PM
Integrity First. Service Before Self. Excellence in All You Do.

Our Core Values. If you know it is an illegal order, then everyone of those should bind you to resisting that order and taking it up the chain of command. It may be easy for me to say from this chair i'm sitting in right now, but it's something you should do even if faced with the prospect of death at the hands of those whose order you are refusing to carry out. .

There are people in the US who think that American military and intelligence agents are war criminals. There are Americans who think that the people in custody in the war on terror are civilians because they aren't wearing a western style uniform, even though they are wearing the same outfit as Bin Laden. And there are foreigners who despise us cheering them on.

I'm not sure that it's possible to have an objective and impartial judge in these cases, and almost certainly impossible to assemble a jury of the defendants' peers.

Novaheart
10-09-2011, 01:22 PM
Well apparently the people who tried him disagreed.

wiki: Christiaan F. Rüter, Professor of Law and expert on NS trials in Germany, who researched the subject at the University of Amsterdam for 40 years, expressed reservations against the commencement of proceedings stating that to him "it is a complete mystery, how anyone who knows the German jurisdiction up to now, would be able to assume that Demjanjuk could be sentenced based on the given evidence."[85][dead link] The trial has been criticized for its lack of evidence other than an interview summary conducted by the Soviet Union KGB of another prison guard who died sometime in the 1990s, and a Soviet-supplied ID card from the Trawniki camp that a 1985 report from the Cleveland office of the FBI concluded was "quite likely" a KGB forgery.[86][87]

He served two years in custody during the trials. What this our best use of resources?

DumbAss Tanker
10-09-2011, 02:15 PM
We are not trained to follow orders without question.


"We" aren't, but they were. I'm old enough to have talked to quite a few WWII vets, American and some German ones. It isn't genocide, but I have heard plenty of accounts to the effect that American and British soldiers had just as little problem as the Germans did in following orders to get rid of inconvenient prisoners, or kill them in reprisal for something that had happened to their own guys who had been captured. The US and the Brits had about as good a record as the Germans did for actually trying anyone for such war crimes, i.e. none.

Odysseus
10-09-2011, 08:36 PM
While I agree with you, it still seems a bit pointless to be going after 80-90 yr olds that are going to die soon anyway...
Many of their victims were elderly people who were going to die soon, too. That didn't stop them from feeding them into gas chambers.


There are people in the US who think that American military and intelligence agents are war criminals. There are Americans who think that the people in custody in the war on terror are civilians because they aren't wearing a western style uniform, even though they are wearing the same outfit as Bin Laden. And there are foreigners who despise us cheering them on.

I'm not sure that it's possible to have an objective and impartial judge in these cases, and almost certainly impossible to assemble a jury of the defendants' peers.

There are stupid people throughout the world. We don't listen to them if we can avoid it.

The reason that Germany is taking this up is because they realized that there are still some guards and other SS personnel still around who may have escaped justice. The time to pursue them is running out, and if they do not act, then these men will die peacefully in their beds, unlike their victims.

fettpett
10-09-2011, 08:45 PM
Many of their victims were elderly people who were going to die soon, too. That didn't stop them from feeding them into gas chambers.


I understand that...if they haven't found them by now, they probably aren't going to.

whats your take on all the scientist that were brought to the US and lived comfortable lives, escaping the Nuremberg trails?

noonwitch
10-10-2011, 09:01 AM
I understand that...if they haven't found them by now, they probably aren't going to.

whats your take on all the scientist that were brought to the US and lived comfortable lives, escaping the Nuremberg trails?

My grandpa met Werner von Braun once. We wouldn't have had a space program without him.

Nubs
10-10-2011, 09:08 AM
My grandpa met Werner von Braun once. We wouldn't have had a space program without him.

I had a professor at WMU whos father worked for von Braun at Dora Mittelbau. With 3 weeks left in the war, he was hung for sabotaging the guidance systems in the V2.

fettpett
10-10-2011, 09:08 AM
My grandpa met Werner von Braun once. We wouldn't have had a space program without him.

I know, neither would the Russian's without their German scientist (though their's were treated far worse than ours). We wouldn't have had many advances in medicine or other fields if it wasn't for Nazi scientist.

namvet
10-10-2011, 09:20 AM
near the end of the war the race was on to grab german scientists by us and the Russians. for us it was called operation paperclip.

Operation Paperclip was the codename under which the US intelligence and military services extricated scientists from Germany, during and after the final stages of World War II. The project was originally called Operation Overcast, and is sometimes also known as Project Paperclip.

http://www.operationpaperclip.info/

marv
10-10-2011, 10:29 AM
The story said their being tried in Germany.A guilt trip no doubt...

We hosted a German 17 year-old high school exchange student from Cologne in 1999. She was an arrogant, über-nationalistic child. Everything in Germany was far superior to anything else - except for Levi jeans and fresh tropical fruits like bananas or oranges or the price of fresh beef! She even thought that Germany began when the former East and West Germanys were reunited after the wall fell. She didn't even know who Bismarck was! Solch ein unwissendes deutsches Weibchen...and she never found out that I could understand German when she talked to her Dad on the phone.

Small groups of neo-Nazis are alive and well in Germany today.



My maternal Grandmother was born in Prussia in 1872, and immigrated to the US in 1879. She married another German immigrant. So my maternal heritage is German.

Novaheart
10-10-2011, 11:34 AM
......... She was an arrogant, über-nationalistic child. Everything in Germany was far superior to anything else..........

Small groups of neo-Nazis are alive and well in Germany today.



I object to any effort, deliberate or accidental, to equate nationalism/nativism or national pride with Nazi philosophy. Perhaps I read your post wrong, and you weren't linking those two ideas, but the "immigrant rights" groups and those who think that multiculturalism means destroying the culture which presided over our prosperity also equate nationalism and nativism with Nazi Germany.

Wanting to preserve my country and culture is not something to be ashamed of. In a perfect world, everyone would think his country is best and have no desire to be anywhere else.

marv
10-10-2011, 12:02 PM
Sorry Nova, but nationalism/nativism or national pride were the heart and soul of Nazism. That's where it started.

fettpett
10-10-2011, 12:10 PM
Nationalism didn't start with Nazi Germany, Nationalism was in large part the reason for WW1. Here in the US we have kinda a gimped version of it by State. After the Civil War though the US started developing it on a national scale.

Nazism took that twisted it with Socialism and true Fascism (Italy)

Odysseus
10-10-2011, 01:55 PM
I understand that...if they haven't found them by now, they probably aren't going to.

whats your take on all the scientist that were brought to the US and lived comfortable lives, escaping the Nuremberg trails?
I have mixed feelings about them. They were certainly responsible for creating weapons that Hitler used against civilians, but they didn't actually direct their use. In that regard, I would say that they were really no more culpable than Smith and Wesson was whenever some punk buys a gun and shoots up his school, even though they were in service to an evil regime. The totenkampf SS, however, were the first line supervisors of the Final Solution. It was their hands on the whips and their fingers on the triggers. They were the ones who fed people into gas chambers and tortured the survivors, worked them to death and dragged them on death marches too keep them from being liberated at the end of the war, handed people over to SS doctors for medical experiments and performed the atrocities that we associate with Nazism.

I object to any effort, deliberate or accidental, to equate nationalism/nativism or national pride with Nazi philosophy. Perhaps I read your post wrong, and you weren't linking those two ideas, but the "immigrant rights" groups and those who think that multiculturalism means destroying the culture which presided over our prosperity also equate nationalism and nativism with Nazi Germany.

Wanting to preserve my country and culture is not something to be ashamed of. In a perfect world, everyone would think his country is best and have no desire to be anywhere else.
This is a rational, logical statement. Does Nova realize that you've hacked his account?

Sorry Nova, but nationalism/nativism or national pride were the heart and soul of Nazism. That's where it started.

It wasn't just nationalism. The Nazi Party was the National Socialist Workers' Party, and much of the evil that they did was based on the socialist ideology that they cribbed from the communists. Hitler's racial attitudes weren't simply nationalism gone bad, but a reflection of the antisemitism that was common among revolutionary socialist groups. Nationalism, by itself, can be positive or negative. One can be a patriot without being a monster.

Novaheart
10-10-2011, 03:19 PM
Sorry Nova, but nationalism/nativism or national pride were the heart and soul of Nazism. That's where it started.



National pride and preservation would be a part of any patriotic philosophy, regardless of its other objectives. The difference is that the Nazis didn't simply champion their own people and culture, they decided that a minority in their society who had been citizens of that society for 400 years were to be done away with.

While white nationalist extremist groups in the US tend to share the distrust of Jews and a host of other people, that doesn't mean that the one is related to the other. These are extremist groups, we would expect them to have offensive ideas. The problem is that people like the Southern Poverty Law Center, the United Church Of Christ, the liberal media, and the federal government consider groups like FAIR and secure border groups to be in the same class with Aryan Nations and Army Of God.

Just yesterday someone told me I should post on Stormfront, because I (gasp) see a connection between the various efforts around the country for immigrant and invasive Islamic culture to assert itself and be accommodated at the expense of our dedication to equal treatment under law and policy. And all I could say was what I always say now when people call me a racist or similar: That doesn't work anymore, so take it back to Berkeley.

Chuck58
10-10-2011, 04:58 PM
Not a lot to contribute here, but a story.

After retiring from law enforcement, I worked security for a few years at a hotel in Santa Fe. While hanging around the lobby, an elderly man (in 1992) approached me. He was wearing a short sleeved shirt and knee length shorts, and was covered with scars, on his arms legs, and a long scar down the left side of his face. He was German.

Anyway, after talking for a couple of minutes, I couldn't help asking about the scars. His answer, 'the war. I have eight wound badges.'

I asked what unit he was with. He replied, "The Wiking Division," and proceeded to spend the next few minutes telling me about his wounds.

I mentioned that the Viking Division was SS. He said yes, but that he was only a soldier, and made some comments about Hitler. I replied that Hitler did some good for Germany.

Bottom line, he immediately changed. Hitler gave Germany pride, made Germany powerful, etc etc. Within a couple of minutes, simply by saying that Hitler did some good, I realized that I was talking to a man who still believed in Hitler.

We spoke for almost 3 hours, about Germany, the war on the eastern front, and Hitler. I wished I'd had a tape recorder. I learned about places and battles I'd never heard of before. Finally, his wife came along and dragged him away. She apologized profusely, saying that he had so much to tell and nobody at home wanted to hear about it.

These people might be elderly, maybe they're inconsequential now, but the above was the 3rd German WW2 vet I've talked to and all of them, with only a simple comment that Hitler did some good, began praising him. Hitler was evil, as bad as Stalin and Mao, but he had and still has an incredible hold on the old timers in Germany.

The war criminals won't be any different. They've had decades of undeserved freedom. It's time they pay.

namvet
10-10-2011, 05:31 PM
BTY it is illegal in Germany today to deny the holocaust publicly. if caught its a fine and 5 years in the gray bar motel

Novaheart
10-11-2011, 07:11 PM
BTY it is illegal in Germany today to deny the holocaust publicly. if caught its a fine and 5 years in the gray bar motel

Do you have to deny it outright or can you get busted for questioning the scale and the particulars. I have no doubt that it happened, I simply get distrustful of the narrative when figures start doubling.

Academics, activists, and story tellers have a habit of not accepting numbers given to them. They reason that the number is low, so they modify it to a range. We can see this very clearly in both the estimates of the American Indian deaths due to "European diseases" and the slaves which died in transit. In both cases, if you had nothing else to do you could track sources increasing the number and quoting others who had done the same. Thus we have somebody in the 1950's writing about 300,000 people died as a result of small pox spreading to Mexico. Then in the sixties, someone says, 300,000 to 500,000. At last report, I think the Mecha and Mexica folks (who have decided that they are American Indians) are claiming ten million people died in the "American Genocide". Idiots, but loud idiots.

I don't think it makes you a Nazi to question the source and the material. I also don't think that six million people of any kind were executed in the concentration camps. That doesn't mean the Holocaust didn't happen, or that it wasn't horrific regardless of scale. It simply means that the argument loses some of its validity when the numbers start to wander.

namvet
10-11-2011, 08:15 PM
Do you have to deny it outright or can you get busted for questioning the scale and the particulars. I have no doubt that it happened, I simply get distrustful of the narrative when figures start doubling.

Academics, activists, and story tellers have a habit of not accepting numbers given to them. They reason that the number is low, so they modify it to a range. We can see this very clearly in both the estimates of the American Indian deaths due to "European diseases" and the slaves which died in transit. In both cases, if you had nothing else to do you could track sources increasing the number and quoting others who had done the same. Thus we have somebody in the 1950's writing about 300,000 people died as a result of small pox spreading to Mexico. Then in the sixties, someone says, 300,000 to 500,000. At last report, I think the Mecha and Mexica folks (who have decided that they are American Indians) are claiming ten million people died in the "American Genocide". Idiots, but loud idiots.

I don't think it makes you a Nazi to question the source and the material. I also don't think that six million people of any kind were executed in the concentration camps. That doesn't mean the Holocaust didn't happen, or that it wasn't horrific regardless of scale. It simply means that the argument loses some of its validity when the numbers start to wander.


Holocaust denial illegal
Germany's parliament passed legislation in 1985, making it a crime to deny the extermination of the Jews. In 1994, the law was tightened. Now, anyone who publicly endorses, denies or plays down the genocide against the Jews faces a maximum penalty of five years in jail and no less than the imposition of a fine.



"It affects the agitator who claims the Jews prey on the German people, that they invented the Holocaust for that purpose, that foreigners should all be thrown out and that the discussion should finally be over with," Benz said. "He must be punished because he engages in incitement of the masses, because he slanders the memory of those murdered, because he slanders our fellow citizens."

Austria imposes even tougher penalties for such offences. Historian and Holocaust-denier David Irving, who was recently arrested there, faces up to 20 years in jail.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1833619,00.html

the 6 million figure was always an estimate of the number of jews on the continent at the start of the conflict. myself i think it was higher

http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,1577143_4,00.jpg
Berlin's memorial to the Holocaust was opened in May this year

KhrushchevsShoe
10-11-2011, 08:23 PM
Its interesting to contrast Germany's admission of their atrocities during the war and Japan's near refusal to admit they ever happened.

namvet
10-11-2011, 08:56 PM
Obastard went to hiroshima and apoligized for the bomb. pearl harbor never happened

fettpett
10-11-2011, 09:28 PM
Its interesting to contrast Germany's admission of their atrocities during the war and Japan's near refusal to admit they ever happened.

:eek::eek: holy shit you said something intelligent for a change!

The Japanese do have a lot to answer for in regards to China, admitting what they did would go a long way to decreasing tensions between the two

Rockntractor
10-11-2011, 09:33 PM
:eek::eek: holy shit you said something intelligent for a change!

The Japanese do have a lot to answer for in regards to China, admitting what they did would go a long way to decreasing tensions between the two

It won't last, he said something smart last year too.

fettpett
10-11-2011, 09:36 PM
It won't last, he said something smart last year too.

yeah...it lasted one post....next one he made was some drivile about Jobs

Rockntractor
10-11-2011, 09:39 PM
yeah...it lasted one post....next one he made was some drivile about Jobs

We'll wait, maybe he'll do it again next year, we should mark the calendar and see if there's a pattern.:confused:

fettpett
10-11-2011, 10:05 PM
We'll wait, maybe he'll do it again next year, we should mark the calendar and see if there's a pattern.:confused:

lol

Odysseus
10-11-2011, 10:37 PM
We'll wait, maybe he'll do it again next year, we should mark the calendar and see if there's a pattern.:confused:

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

Rockntractor
10-11-2011, 10:46 PM
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

If he could find his it might keep him busy for awhile and he would leave us alone.

Sonnabend
10-12-2011, 03:50 AM
The Japanese do have a lot to answer for in regards to China, admitting what they did would go a long way to decreasing tensions between the two

More than China. MUCH more.

txradioguy
10-12-2011, 07:43 AM
More than China. MUCH more.

I'm thinking the Koreans would like to have a word with them too.