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NJCardFan
10-11-2011, 06:06 PM
OK board lefties. Can you all explain this to me in detail?

Novaheart
10-11-2011, 06:36 PM
OK board lefties. Can you all explain this to me in detail?

It's kind of like "progressive" I suppose. The way I use it probably isn't the same as David Whiny Swanson or Violet Bitch Crumble.

Novaheart
10-11-2011, 07:00 PM
OK board lefties. Can you all explain this to me in detail?

I need to know some details. Is the person in question buying his own health insurance on the free and open market or does he have a government job?

NJCardFan
10-11-2011, 08:09 PM
I need to know some details. Is the person in question buying his own health insurance on the free and open market or does he have a government job?
That's what I'm trying to find out hence the question of what constitutes a living wage.

patriot45
10-11-2011, 09:01 PM
That's what I'm trying to find out hence the question of what constitutes a living wage.

According to the 99% moonbats its 20.00 an hour wether you have a job or not.
Sounds reasionable!:rolleyes:

Novaheart
10-11-2011, 10:21 PM
According to the 99% moonbats its 20.00 an hour wether you have a job or not.
Sounds reasionable!:rolleyes:

That's why I wouldn't want to be lumped in with such people.

First off, the living wage would be different depending upon region. Secondly, somebody pulled $20/hr out of his ass.

The traditional formula for rent is that your rent is that one month rent equals one week pay. Back when that was the standard, utilities were included in rent.

I will assume that we consider living alone a privilege of greater choices. So let's use a two bedroom dwelling.

In St Pete, you might be able to find a 2br for less than $600/mo but the nature of the market is that $600 would be the realistic minimum in terms of quality and location. You can't base a living wage on the cheapest rat trap in the city. You need to be on a bus line or near work and shopping.

So we have $600 rent plus $150 utilities and now we're at $750 for two people. That's $375 per week each. Throw in the phone bill and we're looking at a living wage of about $10 hour.

patriot45
10-11-2011, 10:26 PM
That's why I wouldn't want to be lumped in with such people.

First off, the living wage would be different depending upon region. Secondly, somebody pulled $20/hr out of his ass.

The traditional formula for rent is that your rent is that one month rent equals one week pay. Back when that was the standard, utilities were included in rent.

I will assume that we consider living alone a privilege of greater choices. So let's use a two bedroom dwelling.

In St Pete, you might be able to find a 2br for less than $600/mo but the nature of the market is that $600 would be the realistic minimum in terms of quality and location. You can't base a living wage on the cheapest rat trap in the city. You need to be on a bus line or near work and shopping.

So we have $600 rent plus $150 utilities and now we're at $750 for two people. That's $375 per week each. Throw in the phone bill and we're looking at a living wage of about $10 hour.

There is no such thing as a living wage. It is a liberal moonbat made up number. You are actually only worth what you can produce. If you think I am wrong, open a business. No matter what business and pay your employees your mythical living wage! :rolleyes: Dont bother hiring a CPA.:cool:

Rockntractor
10-11-2011, 10:33 PM
There is no such thing as a living wage. It is a liberal moonbat made up number. You are actually only worth what you can produce. If you think I am wrong, open a business. No matter what business and pay your employees your mythical living wage! :rolleyes: Dont bother hiring a CPA.:cool:

That's right, when you are in business for yourself you learn quickly your income is directly related to what you produce, if you sit on your ass you get no money, if you charge a customer for more hours then a job warrants, you don't get more work from them. If you hire someone it doesn't mean shit how much money they need to pay bills if they are not producing.

NJCardFan
10-11-2011, 11:06 PM
That's right, when you are in business for yourself you learn quickly your income is directly related to what you produce, if you sit on your ass you get no money, if you charge a customer for more hours then a job warrants, you don't get more work from them. If you hire someone it doesn't mean shit how much money they need to pay bills if they are not producing.
So in a sense, this is an unanswerable question. However, if we let me set the standard, then I would first have to decide what determines how much it costs for someone to live. Now Nova is right to a degree but in keeping with the moonbat mentality everything has to be the same, right?

Rockntractor
10-11-2011, 11:14 PM
So in a sense, this is an unanswerable question. However, if we let me set the standard, then I would first have to decide what determines how much it costs for someone to live. Now Nova is right to a degree but in keeping with the moonbat mentality everything has to be the same, right?

Even judging with his criteria it would be hard, the cost of many things is vastly different from one part of the country to another. I would bet it takes almost double the money for a comfortable living in New Jersey as it does Oklahoma.

patriot45
10-11-2011, 11:18 PM
So in a sense, this is an unanswerable question. However, if we let me set the standard, then I would first have to decide what determines how much it costs for someone to live. Now Nova is right to a degree but in keeping with the moonbat mentality everything has to be the same, right?

Not quite. If the moonbats can determine that the living mythical wage is 20 bucs an hour and the job should pay 10, how as an employer can you hire enuf people to produce and make a profit!? Now if you take the profit out of the equation, which is what the moonbats really want, then you would open a business just to give employees what they want and you break even or in reality just go out of business and they get 99 weeks of unemployment benifits!! Win win for the moonbats!

Rockntractor
10-11-2011, 11:22 PM
Not quite. If the moonbats can determine that the living mythical wage is 20 bucs an hour and the job should pay 10, how as an employer can you hire enuf people to produce and make a profit!? Now if you take the profit out of the equation, which is what the moonbats really want, then you would open a business just to give employees what they want and you break even or in reality just go out of business and they get 99 weeks of unemployment benifits!! Win win for the moonbats!

Soon the host is sucked dry and the tick falls off and dies.

NJCardFan
10-11-2011, 11:26 PM
But we still need to set the bar for what it costs to live. Let's do that, shall we? But before we begin, I'm getting stuck on the first part which is where to live. The left is against ownership of property so it's going to be hard to find what it costs to live without being able to, well, live anywhere, right?

Rockntractor
10-11-2011, 11:46 PM
But we still need to set the bar for what it costs to live. Let's do that, shall we? But before we begin, I'm getting stuck on the first part which is where to live. The left is against ownership of property so it's going to be hard to find what it costs to live without being able to, well, live anywhere, right?

That is not really the way they prefer to do it.

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.
Karl Marx

The government assigns you to a house, decides how many calories you require and rations you your food.
They decide which job they feel you are suited to and require you to go there and work the required hours, they decide on suitable transportation for you.
They pick a mate for you based on your personality and physical characteristics and take any children that come from that union at a certain age, and the state schools and raises them.

Wei Wu Wei
10-12-2011, 12:26 AM
Now Nova is right to a degree but in keeping with the moonbat mentality everything has to be the same, right?

Wrong.


But we still need to set the bar for what it costs to live. Let's do that, shall we? But before we begin, I'm getting stuck on the first part which is where to live. The left is against ownership of property so it's going to be hard to find what it costs to live without being able to, well, live anywhere, right?

lol

haha that's a nice one. most of the American left isn't against the private property, but even communists who are against private property aren't talking about what you are talking about. they make a distinction between personal property (your home, car, tv, toys, clothes, ect.) and private property (means of production).

your troll failed hard

Wei Wu Wei
10-12-2011, 12:26 AM
That is not really the way they prefer to do it.

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.
Karl Marx

The government assigns you to a house, decides how many calories you require and rations you your food.
They decide which job they feel you are suited to and require you to go there and work the required hours, they decide on suitable transportation for you.
They pick a mate for you based on your personality and physical characteristics and take any children that come from that union at a certain age, and the state schools and raises them.

You forgot the Gulags like they have in Sweden. Don't forget, The swiss with their gulags put a greater percentage of their population in prison than any other country on earth.

Rockntractor
10-12-2011, 12:29 AM
You forgot the Gulags like they have in Sweden. Don't forget, The swiss with their gulags put a greater percentage of their population in prison than any other country on earth.

That's enough of your bullshit.

Rockntractor
10-12-2011, 12:35 AM
Take a three day vacation on me, enough of your mocking.

Novaheart
10-12-2011, 12:41 AM
There is no such thing as a living wage. It is a liberal moonbat made up number. You are actually only worth what you can produce. If you think I am wrong, open a business. No matter what business and pay your employees your mythical living wage! :rolleyes: Dont bother hiring a CPA.:cool:


That's right, when you are in business for yourself you learn quickly your income is directly related to what you produce, if you sit on your ass you get no money, if you charge a customer for more hours then a job warrants, you don't get more work from them. If you hire someone it doesn't mean shit how much money they need to pay bills if they are not producing.

Why are the two of you assuming that a person isn't productive, doesn't make good use of time on the clock, and doesn't add value to the business? It's equally unreasonable to assume that someone with a shitty attitude like that is going to reward a good employee.

Lot's of good people work in crappy jobs because they can't get better. Look at some of the people who work in these jobs. Do they look like they can take their entry level experience from Walmart and get a higher paying position in a better store, perhaps something with health insurance? Does the manager of Walmart look like the cashier who checked you out? Not in my Walmart.

Rockntractor
10-12-2011, 12:49 AM
Why are the two of you assuming that a person isn't productive, doesn't make good use of time on the clock, and doesn't add value to the business? It's equally unreasonable to assume that someone with a shitty attitude like that is going to reward a good employee.

Lot's of good people work in crappy jobs because they can't get better. Look at some of the people who work in these jobs. Do they look like they can take their entry level experience from Walmart and get a retail-clerks covered position in a decent store? Does the manager of Walmart look like the cashier who checked you out? Not in my Walmart.

The bottom line is if a person cannot help you make money, you can't employ them and you can't pay them more than they bring in if you do employ them.
I'm not Walmart and most people were employed by small business before Obama completely destroyed the economy.
I haven't had anyone work with me for three years and in order to keep working I have had to lower my price considerably and work many more hours to make up the difference.
Cry to your socialist friends about it, if they keep making things worse none of us will be working.

noonwitch
10-12-2011, 09:12 AM
I always thought of minimum wage as a "living wage". You can barely survive on it, if you are an independent adult without children.

fettpett
10-12-2011, 09:17 AM
I always thought of minimum wage as a "living wage". You can barely survive on it, if you are an independent adult without children.

but it's not suppose to be. it's a Starting point, thus "minimum"

Novaheart
10-12-2011, 09:21 AM
I'm not Walmart and most people were employed by small business before Obama completely destroyed the economy.

Do you honestly believe this summary and timeline? Seriously, Rock. I remember the first time I said "We're headed towards being a nation of cashiers." sometime in the 1980's. Track Auto was replacing all the local car stuff shops. Hardware stores had all but disappeared as Hechinger's became Harry Homeowner's new best friend. Crown Books had gobbled up the book market, and was opening a beverage superstore chain. The IGA's were gone, and Giant Food was driving nails into the coffin of MacGruders, the last DC small chain. Neighborhood video stores were about to be done in by Blockbuster.

And all along the way, we saved money when these things happened. Funny, when small towns and urban neighborhoods were fighting Walmart and other big box stores, the conservatives derided the effort saying that competition was God's way of clearing away the chaff. On another board, an older man and staunch conservative said, "Good! To hell with them! (small businesses) When I was younger these were the only place to go. The owners treated customers like crap. They never had anything in stock and had to order everything, which they acted like it was a favor to do, and they charged too much for things. Fuck them."

As for the small businesses employing people, the quality of a job from an employee angle is mostly the compensation. It doesn't really help that you enjoy your work environment if you just got plunged into bankruptcy by a trip to the hospital.

I think the bottom line is that we're in a messed up in between place right now. The small business jobs were shitty, being a small business owner isn't what it used to be (and many of them can't get or afford health insurance either) , and corporations are trying to redefine and skirt any notion of being a good loyal employer with good loyal employees. Sure, they want the employees to be good and loyal, but they don't want to be a good and loyal employer. It's one sided. Like I tell people who are worried about not giving notice to their current employer when a better job needs them right away: "How much notice would your employer give you before firing you?" p

It's a two way street, and right now corporations are driving recklessly and without regard for the long term good of the company and ultimately the good of the nation.

fettpett
10-12-2011, 09:25 AM
and yet small business continued to thrive and remain the back-bone of the American economy.

Novaheart
10-12-2011, 09:35 AM
but it's not suppose to be. it's a Starting point, thus "minimum"

Minimum wage is not a training wage. We have those in some places as well. Minimum wage is not an assessment of the value of the work being done, it's a floor requirement for employers who would pay less if they could.

Many people in this country work in minwage jobs which are not a "starting point", it's the work that is available. There really are grown ups who wash dishes and clean hotel rooms. There is a guy at my garage who changes tires who will never be a mechanic. It's just a little elitist to declare that all of these jobs are supposed to be held by low paid teenagers who aren't worth minimum wage.

One of the big elements of the minwage discussion, and I never see it discussed because the conversation always ends up in the dumper of rhetoric and clichés, is that the cost of housing has hugely increased and we have adapted to accept that it will always be thus. Yes, the real estate market is in the dumper, but the rental market is lagging on the decline and will rise faster than it fell when things turn around. We can't really do anything about unchecked domestic population growth and the demand it puts on housing near employment centers and areas of prosperity. Neither can the Chinese, which is why they have worker housing.

Novaheart
10-12-2011, 09:38 AM
and yet small business continued to thrive and remain the back-bone of the American economy.

Define "small business."

Lumping together a mom and pop guitar store with a $5,000,000 a year restaurant that feels like a mom and pop shop isn't a useful term.

Tipsycatlover
10-12-2011, 10:04 AM
There was an old joke.

A man is negotiating for wages on a new job. He wants a bit more than the job pays. The employer says "I"ll pay meet your salary demands for one month. After that I'll pay you exactly what you're worth." The prospective employee get up and says "I'd never work for someone paying so little". Then he walks out.

fettpett
10-12-2011, 10:15 AM
Minimum wage is not a training wage. We have those in some places as well. Minimum wage is not an assessment of the value of the work being done, it's a floor requirement for employers who would pay less if they could.

I didn't say it was "training wage"...yes it's a floor requirement, thus a a starting point, where one starts working at, works hard, gets a raise. That's how it works.


Many people in this country work in minwage jobs which are not a "starting point", it's the work that is available. There really are grown ups who wash dishes and clean hotel rooms. There is a guy at my garage who changes tires who will never be a mechanic. It's just a little elitist to declare that all of these jobs are supposed to be held by low paid teenagers who aren't worth minimum wage.

again, those are low skill jobs. Hell I know people that can't even do those kinds of jobs, and you want to pay them more than their worth? Again, the minimum is where people start the job at. As they work, do a good job, aren't lazy and perform they get raises. You don't know that they guy at the garage is making only 7/hr or is making 15/hr, same with the dish washer or cleaning lady. When we refer to skill it means that it just doesn't take much to learn, to be good at that skill takes practice, to be exceptional takes even more.


One of the big elements of the minwage discussion, and I never see it discussed because the conversation always ends up in the dumper of rhetoric and clichés, is that the cost of housing has hugely increased and we have adapted to accept that it will always be thus. Yes, the real estate market is in the dumper, but the rental market is lagging on the decline and will rise faster than it fell when things turn around. We can't really do anything about unchecked domestic population growth and the demand it puts on housing near employment centers and areas of prosperity. Neither can the Chinese, which is why they have worker housing.

Housing is a bit of an issue but not as big of one as you are trying to make it out to be. Cost of living in some area's are extremely high, but that less a symptom of the housing issues and more an issue of high taxes. Also much of it depends on other factors. Rent around me is between 300-700/mo depending on the type of house/appartment and it's location. A place in St Joesph is more expensive than a place in Benton Harbor which is more expensive than a place in Berrin Springs an about the same as Niles. However go to South Bend and you're looking at about the same as St Joe.

There are only about 300 mil in the US, in no way have we even come close to capacity, let alone exceding it. The Chinese have done worse because they have very raipidly tried to go from a backward agrarian society to an 21st Century psudo-Capitalist one in less than 20 years. They are also trying to shove 1 billion people into a bunch of cities the size of Chicago and bigger.

fettpett
10-12-2011, 10:21 AM
Define "small business."

Lumping together a mom and pop guitar store with a $5,000,000 a year restaurant that feels like a mom and pop shop isn't a useful term.

in the US a small business has less than 500 employees and/or under $7 million in sales, so both your examples count as small businesses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_business#cite_note-SBASize-1

Rockntractor
10-12-2011, 10:32 AM
Do you honestly believe this summary and timeline? Seriously, Rock. I remember the first time I said "We're headed towards being a nation of cashiers." sometime in the 1980's. Track Auto was replacing all the local car stuff shops. Hardware stores had all but disappeared as Hechinger's became Harry Homeowner's new best friend. Crown Books had gobbled up the book market, and was opening a beverage superstore chain. The IGA's were gone, and Giant Food was driving nails into the coffin of MacGruders, the last DC small chain. Neighborhood video stores were about to be done in by Blockbuster.

And all along the way, we saved money when these things happened. Funny, when small towns and urban neighborhoods were fighting Walmart and other big box stores, the conservatives derided the effort saying that competition was God's way of clearing away the chaff. On another board, an older man and staunch conservative said, "Good! To hell with them! (small businesses) When I was younger these were the only place to go. The owners treated customers like crap. They never had anything in stock and had to order everything, which they acted like it was a favor to do, and they charged too much for things. Fuck them."

As for the small businesses employing people, the quality of a job from an employee angle is mostly the compensation. It doesn't really help that you enjoy your work environment if you just got plunged into bankruptcy by a trip to the hospital.

I think the bottom line is that we're in a messed up in between place right now. The small business jobs were shitty, being a small business owner isn't what it used to be (and many of them can't get or afford health insurance either) , and corporations are trying to redefine and skirt any notion of being a good loyal employer with good loyal employees. Sure, they want the employees to be good and loyal, but they don't want to be a good and loyal employer. It's one sided. Like I tell people who are worried about not giving notice to their current employer when a better job needs them right away: "How much notice would your employer give you before firing you?" p

It's a two way street, and right now corporations are driving recklessly and without regard for the long term good of the company and ultimately the good of the nation.
I don't have to think or believe anything Nova, it is dollars and cents on paper.
Bottom line is, with the current laws and economy no one will be working for me, if I get more work than I can handle I turn it down. It will be worse when national wealth redistribution goes into effect ( Obama care).

marv
10-12-2011, 12:20 PM
Living wage? A joke.

In the late sixties, I was riding around with a real estate agent, looking for a newer, bigger house. We passed a really nice one with his company's name, and his, on the for sale sign.

I asked him, "How's that one going?" He said not well. The prospective buyer, a TWA captain, was having trouble qualifying for a loan. The captain made $100,000/yr, but spent $105,000! Clearly, the TWA captain was earning less than a "living wage".

If your income can provide food, shelter and put clothing on your back, you have a "living wage". Everything else is gravy. But if you can't afford the gravy, well..........http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Odysseus
10-12-2011, 12:26 PM
Wrong.

lol

haha that's a nice one. most of the American left isn't against the private property, but even communists who are against private property aren't talking about what you are talking about. they make a distinction between personal property (your home, car, tv, toys, clothes, ect.) and private property (means of production).

your troll failed hard
Funny, but every other communist movement has taken private property. Have American communists learned from the mistakes of the various other communist failures, or have they just cleaned up their rhetoric to mask their intentions? My money (and it is my money, thank you very much) is on the latter.

Do you honestly believe this summary and timeline? Seriously, Rock. I remember the first time I said "We're headed towards being a nation of cashiers." sometime in the 1980's.

And we're still heading there, only now the cashiers have masters degrees in Gender Studies, Drum Circle Dynamics, Medieval Underwater Basket-Weaving or some other useless undisciplined discipline.

NJCardFan
10-12-2011, 01:13 PM
There is a guy at my garage who changes tires who will never be a mechanic.
Wow, I was getting paid $2 over MW when I was changing tires. Maybe this guy might want to look for work at a better paying garage.

NJCardFan
10-12-2011, 01:17 PM
Wrong.



lol

haha that's a nice one. most of the American left isn't against the private property, but even communists who are against private property aren't talking about what you are talking about. they make a distinction between personal property (your home, car, tv, toys, clothes, ect.) and private property (means of production).

your troll failed hard
Um, no I didn't fail, idiot. These people believe that there is no private property. That everything should be communal. So you are either for or against private property. There cannot be a gray area. But you're an idiot so obviously you don't understand these kinds of grown up things.

NJCardFan
10-12-2011, 01:19 PM
I always thought of minimum wage as a "living wage". You can barely survive on it, if you are an independent adult without children.

For the 2 billionth time, the MW was never meant to be a living wage.

NJCardFan
10-12-2011, 01:24 PM
Minimum wage is not a training wage. We have those in some places as well. Minimum wage is not an assessment of the value of the work being done, it's a floor requirement for employers who would pay less if they could.
This is as far as I could get before I erupted in laughter. Thank you for showing your obvious ignorance on how to run a business. You don't succeed by being cheap. If you want to pay less than the minimum wage then be prepared to have a company full of dolts. So, you keep parroting your leftist socialist talking points. I need a good laugh.

Novaheart
10-12-2011, 01:39 PM
in the US a small business has less than 500 employees and/or under $7 million in sales, so both your examples count as small businesses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_business#cite_note-SBASize-1

Then the term is too broad to be useful for discussion.

fettpett
10-12-2011, 01:54 PM
Then the term is too broad to be useful for discussion.

:rolleyes:

Odysseus
10-12-2011, 02:55 PM
Then the term is too broad to be useful for discussion.

Since when do liberals engage in useful discussion? :confused:

marv
10-12-2011, 03:00 PM
I always thought of minimum wage as a "living wage". You can barely survive on it, if you are an independent adult without children.You've been taught wrong. The MW is NOT, and never was intended to be, a "living wage". It's an ENTRY level wage intended for the likes of high school students - like me when I got 75¢ an hour in the mid fifties for making sodas and frying hamburgers when I was in high school.

Independent adults are supposed to have a wage they can support themselves on, and a spouse, and children. If they're unable to support a family, they need to look in a mirror.

NJCardFan
10-12-2011, 05:18 PM
I've never worked a job where A) I didn't have to create my own raise(commission) or B) that I never got a raise based on merit. The only places where I had no control over what I made was in union shops with the exception of when I delivered bread. The base pay was collectively bargained but the rest was based on my sales(10%). Even when I worked minimum wage jobs while in high school, I never failed to get a raise. Even working at Wendy's.

fettpett
10-12-2011, 06:17 PM
I've never worked a job where A) I had to create my own raise(commission) or B) that I never got a raise based on merit. The only places where I had no control over what I made was in union shops with the exception of when I delivered bread. The base pay was collectively bargained but the rest was based on my sales(10%). Even when I worked minimum wage jobs while in high school, I never failed to get a raise. Even working at Wendy's.

I have only worked ONE Fast food restaurant where i didn't get a raise within 3 months let alone 6 and that was my first "real" job at McD's when I was 15. Everyone was promised and got a raise but me and another girl (who was a shitty worker). Immediatly quit, went across the street to Wendy's and started making $1 over min wage and was around $8/hr when I finally left when I was 17, and I only left because I went to a boarding High school.

Rockntractor
10-12-2011, 06:28 PM
I have only worked ONE Fast food restaurant where i didn't get a raise within 3 months let alone 6 and that was my first "real" job at McD's when I was 15. Everyone was promised and got a raise but me and another girl (who was a shitty worker). Immediatly quit, went across the street to Wendy's and started making $1 over min wage and was around $8/hr when I finally left when I was 17, and I only left because I went to a boarding High school.

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/forums/fat_mcdonalds.jpg

Novaheart
10-12-2011, 07:29 PM
:rolleyes:

Would you discuss a two man farm and a 500 man farm as if they were in the same category?

Novaheart
10-12-2011, 07:34 PM
And we're still heading there, only now the cashiers have masters degrees in Gender Studies, Drum Circle Dynamics, Medieval Underwater Basket-Weaving or some other useless undisciplined discipline.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/215126/8/Gov-Rick-Scott-idea-to-slash-liberal-arts-funding-called-uninformed

Governor Scott wants to cut funds basketweaving.

fettpett
10-12-2011, 08:08 PM
Would you discuss a two man farm and a 500 man farm as if they were in the same category?

why does it matter, when it comes to taxes it doesn't matter, they are both going to file the same and be taxed the same for the most part. Their income levels maybe different and their business model might be different.

You might have a valid point, but that doesn't matter right now because those are what the Government has setup for what a Small Business is in the US. So I don't really get why you want to argue the point.

RobJohnson
10-16-2011, 12:56 AM
That's why I wouldn't want to be lumped in with such people.

First off, the living wage would be different depending upon region. Secondly, somebody pulled $20/hr out of his ass.

The traditional formula for rent is that your rent is that one month rent equals one week pay. Back when that was the standard, utilities were included in rent.

I will assume that we consider living alone a privilege of greater choices. So let's use a two bedroom dwelling.

In St Pete, you might be able to find a 2br for less than $600/mo but the nature of the market is that $600 would be the realistic minimum in terms of quality and location. You can't base a living wage on the cheapest rat trap in the city. You need to be on a bus line or near work and shopping.

So we have $600 rent plus $150 utilities and now we're at $750 for two people. That's $375 per week each. Throw in the phone bill and we're looking at a living wage of about $10 hour.

What about wage deductions for taxes & insurance? Would $10 be enough? So if the person was single, the wage would need to be $20 per your explanation?

Novaheart
10-16-2011, 01:34 AM
What about wage deductions for taxes & insurance? Would $10 be enough?

I can't remember whether the old formula was take home or gross.



So if the person was single, the wage would need to be $20 per your explanation?

In my calculation, I declared that living alone was a luxury. We don't have studio apartments around here, so I don't know how much it would cost for one person to live on his own at the baseline. The smaller apartments around here tend to rent for more than a larger one per square foot, because a one bedroom still has a living room, kitchen, and some sort of dining area.

marv
10-16-2011, 09:22 AM
In my calculation, I declared that living alone was a luxury. We don't have studio apartments around here, so I don't know how much it would cost for one person to live on his own at the baseline. The smaller apartments around here tend to rent for more than a larger one per square foot, because a one bedroom still has a living room, kitchen, and some sort of dining area.

My first apartment, when I was first married in '62, was one room with a "Murphy bed" (http://www.murphybedcompany.com/images/hist_01.jpg) (GOOGLE that up!), and a space for a "kitchen" along one wall. We saved up, and bought our first home two years later.

Solution; move into your Mom's basement!

NJCardFan
10-16-2011, 10:15 AM
My first apartment, when I was first married in '62, was one room with a "Murphy bed" (http://www.murphybedcompany.com/images/hist_01.jpg) (GOOGLE that up!), and a space for a "kitchen" along one wall. We saved up, and bought our first home two years later.

Solution; move into your Mom's basement!

There's a 101 ways to live comfortably. Get with a few friends and split the rent on a 3 BR apartment or townhouse or even rent a house. Once you're in said dwelling, forgo the big screen TV, mega stereo, $400 cell phone/plan, buy a hoopdie instead of a brand new car. It's all about priorities.

Novaheart
10-16-2011, 10:25 AM
There's a 101 ways to live comfortably. Get with a few friends and split the rent on a 3 BR apartment or townhouse or even rent a house. Once you're in said dwelling, forgo the big screen TV, mega stereo, $400 cell phone/plan, buy a hoopdie instead of a brand new car. It's all about priorities.

¿que?

NJCardFan
10-16-2011, 01:49 PM
¿que?

Hoopdie or Hooptie, depending on how you want to spell it, well, here's an example:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcsONie_kgv1nqyaw9FX2ACE38dzog-CHD3IdkR7yJ2Dy8La8cuFyvZfM_5Q

fettpett
10-16-2011, 07:45 PM
¿que?

a cheep car...anything under $3k

Odysseus
10-16-2011, 07:49 PM
http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/215126/8/Gov-Rick-Scott-idea-to-slash-liberal-arts-funding-called-uninformed

Governor Scott wants to cut funds basketweaving.

And well he should. From the article:


Natalie Odom is majoring in mass communications at the University of South Florida. She says, "I think it's awful because not everyone has an interest in math and science and if he cuts out areas that people have an interest in, that is just going to make for less students enrolled in college because they may not want to study a field that they have no desire or passion to study."

This person completely misses the point. It is not the obligation of the state to subsidize the passions or interests of students. In fact, one can argue that the state has little or no business deciding what careers people ought to pursue. The market rewards good decisions and punishes bad ones, and the sooner people understand that their desires are nobody's business but their own, the better off they will be.

RobJohnson
10-17-2011, 01:29 AM
I've never worked a job where A) I didn't have to create my own raise(commission) or B) that I never got a raise based on merit. The only places where I had no control over what I made was in union shops with the exception of when I delivered bread. The base pay was collectively bargained but the rest was based on my sales(10%). Even when I worked minimum wage jobs while in high school, I never failed to get a raise. Even working at Wendy's.

I've worked places in which when minimum wage went up, those of us above that pay grade did not, or could not get a raise due to labor costs....

So those of us that had earned a raise, were put on hold...in IL we had kids in high school that we had to pay $7.50 an hour, with no skills. NONE. We also had to train them...

I like getting a raise the old fashioned way...earning one.

....and don't get me started on the unions. The UFCW kept me from getting a $10 hour promotion due to senority once....even when the contract had loose language that was to allow them to give me the new duties. (which I was already doing in the first place)

Tipsycatlover
10-17-2011, 08:42 AM
And well he should. From the article:


Natalie Odom is majoring in mass communications at the University of South Florida. She says, "I think it's awful because not everyone has an interest in math and science and if he cuts out areas that people have an interest in, that is just going to make for less students enrolled in college because they may not want to study a field that they have no desire or passion to study."

This person completely misses the point. It is not the obligation of the state to subsidize the passions or interests of students. In fact, one can argue that the state has little or no business deciding what careers people ought to pursue. The market rewards good decisions and punishes bad ones, and the sooner people understand that their desires are nobody's business but their own, the better off they will be.

Her major is mass communications! We are DOOMED.