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View Full Version : Another Question For The Board Leftists: Define Poor



NJCardFan
10-16-2011, 06:56 AM
Just like the title says, define poor. Because once again I'm trying to put a little perspective on things going on right now. All we hear about is the plight of the poor in this country but the actual definition of poor is murky at best. I see people who identify themselves as poor and yet bestow upon themselves luxuries that even I don't have. I remember my dad and step mom used to call themselves poor even though they owned a 5 bedroom house, 2 cars, and they used to take trips everywhere. I believe that the term poor, like most terms the left uses(racism) has become so bastardized that it's true meaning they wouldn't recognize if it bit them in the ass. My Grandmother, God rest her, traveled extensively and she used to tell us of what poor really was. She'd been to Africa, China, India where people are truly poor so I, again, ask, define poor.

marv
10-16-2011, 10:26 AM
From my conservative point of view, "poor", like "rich", is a relative attitude. If you have to settle for hamburger while your neighbor eats steak, you think you're poor. But if you have food on the table, clothes on your back, and a roof over your head, you can't be poor.

The self-image of "being poor" is the product of indolent jealousy.

Novaheart
10-16-2011, 10:28 AM
Just like the title says, define poor. .

This one is easy, I defined this term years ago.

Broke is when you are out of cash. Poor is when your friends don't return your calls.

Novaheart
10-16-2011, 10:33 AM
Just like the title says, define poor. Because once again I'm trying to put a little perspective on things going on right now. All we hear about is the plight of the poor in this country but the actual definition of poor is murky at best. I see people who identify themselves as poor and yet bestow upon themselves luxuries that even I don't have. I remember my dad and step mom used to call themselves poor even though they owned a 5 bedroom house, 2 cars, and they used to take trips everywhere. I believe that the term poor, like most terms the left uses(racism) has become so bastardized that it's true meaning they wouldn't recognize if it bit them in the ass. My Grandmother, God rest her, traveled extensively and she used to tell us of what poor really was. She'd been to Africa, China, India where people are truly poor so I, again, ask, define poor.

The oddest line in To Kill A Mockingbird is when Scout asks Atticus "Are we poor?" and Atticus replies, "We surely are." This despite the fact that they lived in one of the nicer homes of Jackass Flats, had electricity, indoor plumbing, and hot water, a housekeeper, a car, new clothes, and the head of household was a prominent citizen.

I'm pretty sure the dad who works day labor, lives in a motel with his kid, and walks to work to save bus fare is poor. We have a lot of that going on near here. But I have always said that the poorest of the poor are the rural poor. They tend to have a lot less than the urban poor, and certainly less than the professionally poor.

Odysseus
10-16-2011, 11:00 AM
This one is easy, I defined this term years ago.

Broken is when you are out of cash. Poor is when your friends don't return your calls.

I think that you are confusing poor with obnoxious.

The US has a definitive line for poverty, below which, one is supposedly poor. However, the vast majority of the people below this line have cars, TVs, cell phones, computers, air conditioning and all of the other assorted trappings that my father's generation would have associated with unbelievable prosperity. Many of them even own their own homes. The number one nutritional issue is not hunger but obesity. Clearly, the government's standard of poverty accounts for a level of affluence that the poor of other countries can only dream of.

NJCardFan
10-16-2011, 12:04 PM
Even though 95% of the time I'm cash strapped, I'd never even dream that I'm poor. When I lived in Arizona, I had to sell my returns from my Sara Lee route at the flea market on weekends for food money. And I still didn't consider myself poor. Dinesh D'Souza wrote in one of his books that while he was in India(his homeland), he would often listen to people dreaming of coming to America. He asked this one man why he wanted to go to America and the man said that he wanted to go where the poor people are fat.

Novaheart
10-16-2011, 12:43 PM
I think that you are confusing poor with obnoxious.

The US has a definitive line for poverty, below which, one is supposedly poor. However, the vast majority of the people below this line have cars, TVs, cell phones, computers, air conditioning and all of the other assorted trappings that my father's generation would have associated with unbelievable prosperity. Many of them even own their own homes. The number one nutritional issue is not hunger but obesity. Clearly, the government's standard of poverty accounts for a level of affluence that the poor of other countries can only dream of.

Which is why we have modifiers.

IN many parts of the world, owning land is considered the difference between poverty and prosperity, and yet as Americans we know that there are people in this country who own land who are indeed poor by today's standards as well as those of 1930 or 1880. You can own land, and a horse, and a plow, and still be poor.

Abject poverty on the other hand is something we don't associate with owning land. Once you have sold all that you have, are living in a cold water shack, and earning barely enough to keep you alive we consider you inarguably poor. I suppose that the starving people in Biafra would consider a desperate family in Appalachia to be well off by comparison, but then a man who is bleeding to death might prefer to have cancer if it meant he had six more months to live.

Novaheart
10-16-2011, 12:50 PM
Even though 95% of the time I'm cash strapped, I'd never even dream that I'm poor. When I lived in Arizona, I had to sell my returns from my Sara Lee route at the flea market on weekends for food money. And I still didn't consider myself poor. Dinesh D'Souza wrote in one of his books that while he was in India(his homeland), he would often listen to people dreaming of coming to America. He asked this one man why he wanted to go to America and the man said that he wanted to go where the poor people are fat.

I've never considered myself poor, even when I had little money and only my personal possessions, but technically I was. The difference as I see it is not in perspective but in outlook. When I was finding myself in California, at any time I could get on a plane (or hitch hike I suppose) and return to a middle class life in suburban Maryland. I was choosing to live in a very expensive place, and eventually decided it wasn't worth it.

BTW, there is an excellent documentary about the Appalachian migration to Cleveland. It was unique in several ways, including that these people as a rule did own land, and did have family back up. They lived like refugees in Cleveland during the week, and piled into a car and returned to the land on weekends for emotional health.

NJCardFan
10-16-2011, 01:44 PM
The point is that the left is making it sound like we have people starving in the streets. I mean, look at these idiots complaining about health insurance. I hear people complaining about it all the time...then see them jump into a Mercedes or an Escalade and drive off. I think that maybe, and that's a big maybe, .000000001% of this country's population can be considered straight up dirt, don't have 2 nickels to rub together, eating ketchup soup 3 times a day poor. The rest have their priorities out of whack.

MrsSmith
10-16-2011, 07:48 PM
Some guidelines for truly poor:

Not enough money to smoke or drink

Not enough money to run an air conditioner

Not enough money to run a dishwasher

Not enough money to run a dryer if you can possibly hang clothes out

No one gets new clothes until you've exhausted every chance of finding them at a garage sale, thrift store or any other source of hand-me-downs. If you can sew them, you do. If you can make them by cutting down a larger item that no one wears, you do.

1/2 your food is bagged, dried beans or rice. If you have meat, it's hamburger, pig's feet, chicken drumsticks, or whatever happens to be on the best sale. When a neighbor gives you a few pounds of venison, you nearly cry.

You roll pennies to fill the prescription for your sick kid, and beg the Dr. office to wait until your next check for their money

It goes without saying, but no cable, internet, cell phone, etc.

If you can swing a car, you balance best gas mileage with purchase price. Looks don't count at all, but mechanical condition does.

You set your thermostat at 60 during the winter. If someone gets sick, you run a radiator style electric heater in their room because that takes the least money to heat the space.

Odysseus
10-16-2011, 07:53 PM
Some guidelines for truly poor:

Not enough money to smoke or drink

Not enough money to run an air conditioner

Not enough money to run a dishwasher

Not enough money to run a dryer if you can possibly hang clothes out

No one gets new clothes until you've exhausted every chance of finding them at a garage sale, thrift store or any other source of hand-me-downs. If you can sew them, you do. If you can make them by cutting down a larger item that no one wears, you do.

1/2 your food is bagged, dried beans or rice. If you have meat, it's hamburger, pig's feet, chicken drumsticks, or whatever happens to be on the best sale. When a neighbor gives you a few pounds of venison, you nearly cry.

You roll pennies to fill the prescription for your sick kid, and beg the Dr. office to wait until your next check for their money

It goes without saying, but no cable, internet, cell phone, etc.

If you can swing a car, you balance best gas mileage with purchase price. Looks don't count at all, but mechanical condition does.

You set your thermostat at 60 during the winter. If someone gets sick, you run a radiator style electric heater in their room because that takes the least money to heat the space.

I think that the working definition of poor is what you are after Obama has decided that you are a millionaire and taxed you accordingly.

MrsSmith
10-16-2011, 09:15 PM
I think that the working definition of poor is what you are after Obama has decided that you are a millionaire and taxed you accordingly.

Probably! :D My list was all from personal experience.

Rockntractor
10-16-2011, 09:26 PM
Poor is when you can only afford half the memory your laptop is capable of using.

Novaheart
10-17-2011, 12:30 AM
Poor is when you can only afford half the memory your laptop is capable of using.

I hadn't thought about maxing out the memory on this macbook because it didn't seem necessary. What was I thinking? Just checked, and it would only cost $67 to go from 2GB to 4 GB. The thing that pisses me off is that instead of buying one 2 GB module, I need to buy two and the existing memory goes in the trash (it will go in my desk, and then two years from now it will go in the trash.)

Right now I am running on the charger full time, because I just got it back from the repair place, got a new keyboard and track pad under warranty (about to expire at 3 years) but they said my battery was swollen (it is) and needs to be replaced. So right now there is a hole in the back of my computer while I debate internally the cost effectiveness of apple OEM battery ($120) or "just as good" ($60).

marv
10-17-2011, 12:33 AM
You're poor if you think you are. You're rich if your neighbor thinks you are. If neither, you're probably middle class - whatever that is.

Apache
10-17-2011, 12:33 AM
Probably! :D My list was all from personal experience.

Reaally? Sounds more like you,re watching me right now :eek: Honestly, I don't have a lot, BUT I don,t consider myself poor...


Just have to work for the next level :cool:

txradioguy
10-17-2011, 12:43 AM
The year I made less than $6,000 for the entire year.

That was 2000.

Nothing like being 31 and having to move you and your two kids back in with your parents.

The only reason I had any income at all that year was thanks to my National Guard drill checks.

Tipsycatlover
10-17-2011, 08:43 AM
You're poor if you have a 42" flat screen but your neighbor who works has a 60".

Wei Wu Wei
10-17-2011, 08:59 AM
I don't know why people obsess over TV's and stuff. If you go to any Goodwill store you can find TV's for under $100, Goodwill outlet stores sells big-screen TV's for under $50.

These thrift resell shops sell clothes and shoes for a few dollars. They sell toys and kitchen gadgets for the same price.

Just because you would rather (and are able) to go waste $900 on a new tv from Best Buy doesn't mean that's what everyone does.

Wei Wu Wei
10-17-2011, 09:02 AM
They sell xbox 360's for about $60. A family that can't afford $1000+ per month rent buys their child a once-a-year under-$100 toy for christmas so that the kid doesn't spend his time around the crackheads and gang members in these bad neighborhoods, and you people vilify them because you view that as a luxury.

Novaheart
10-17-2011, 09:03 AM
You're poor if you think you are. You're rich if your neighbor thinks you are. If neither, you're probably middle class - whatever that is.

The term "middle class" has been something of an opiate of the masses in the US. Few people have classified themselves as rich. The truly rich keep quiet, and everyone else considers himself middle class unless he's on welfare. When middle class stretches from a two Walmart income household to a guy in a Manhattan penthouse the term is meaningless. Traditionally, "middle class" referred only to gentlemen ie non titled men of means who did not do manual labor. From there you went to merchant class, tradesmen, working class (laborers and miners), servants, tinkers, organ grinder, organ grinder monkey, field hand, slave, poor white trash, beggar.

fettpett
10-17-2011, 09:24 AM
Middle Class: makes from $50,000 to $200,000/year

NJCardFan
10-17-2011, 09:53 AM
They sell xbox 360's for about $60. A family that can't afford $1000+ per month rent buys their child a once-a-year under-$100 toy for christmas so that the kid doesn't spend his time around the crackheads and gang members in these bad neighborhoods, and you people vilify them because you view that as a luxury.

However, when buying said XBox then complaining that you don't have enough food or you don't have medical insurance. But don't give me this guff about buying an XBox just to keep a kid away from crackheads. Being a responsible parent keeps kids away from crackheads. If you want to entertain a kid, take him to the library and do you know how much games cost? $60 a pop. Oh, and gaming systems are luxuries. We didn't have these things growing up and we didn't hang around with gangs. You're just copping out and making excuses.

marv
10-17-2011, 10:01 AM
Middle Class: makes from $50,000 to $200,000/year

My pension and our combined SS total $32k/year (without a COLA for two years despite inflation), so I guess we're poor - except we own our three bedroom AC'd house and two vehicles free and clear, pay for health insurance, have four TVs, two VCRs and Dish satellite, two PCs, four sweet dogs, two guns, manage a modest savings account,...I could go on.

It's not what you have, it's what you do with what you have. That's called budgeting and managing your income. THAT'S middle class.

Novaheart
10-17-2011, 10:15 AM
However, when buying said XBox then complaining that you don't have enough food or you don't have medical insurance. But don't give me this guff about buying an XBox just to keep a kid away from crackheads. Being a responsible parent keeps kids away from crackheads. If you want to entertain a kid, take him to the library and do you know how much games cost? $60 a pop. Oh, and gaming systems are luxuries. We didn't have these things growing up and we didn't hang around with gangs. You're just copping out and making excuses.

His post might need some work but so does your response. This crap of, "When I was a kid I played with an old tire, and I liked it." is just that: crap. Part of being an American is that poverty isn't the unrelenting desperation we see in Africa. Even the Jode family had some relief from time to time.

Poverty also means poor today and the outlook is poor. So when you have virtually nothing and a crappy job and not much in the way of prospects, you manage to give your kid a little something when you can. By your logic, you shouldn't buy your kid anything, because you aren't financially independent, and you never know when you might get laid off and need the money you just spent on a tricycle.

Notice how no one ever says, "He says he's poor, but just look at that kid of his on a tricycle!" Tricycles start at $59 at Walmart. Tricycles for disabled kids runs $400 - $700.

txradioguy
10-17-2011, 10:42 AM
XBox internet cellphone it's all a luxury when you've got those things and are using food stamps to get groceries.

Rockntractor
10-17-2011, 11:01 AM
Reaally? Sounds more like you,re watching me right now :eek: Honestly, I don't have a lot, BUT I don,t consider myself poor...


Just have to work for the next level :cool:

Post a video of you dancing on one foot barking like a dog and I will send you a can of tuna.:cool:

lacarnut
10-17-2011, 11:16 AM
His post might need some work but so does your response. This crap of, "When I was a kid I played with an old tire, and I liked it." is just that: crap. Part of being an American is that poverty isn't the unrelenting desperation we see in Africa. Even the Jode family had some relief from time to time.

Poverty also means poor today and the outlook is poor. So when you have virtually nothing and a crappy job and not much in the way of prospects, you manage to give your kid a little something when you can. By your logic, you shouldn't buy your kid anything, because you aren't financially independent, and you never know when you might get laid off and need the money you just spent on a tricycle.

Notice how no one ever says, "He says he's poor, but just look at that kid of his on a tricycle!" Tricycles start at $59 at Walmart. Tricycles for disabled kids runs $400 - $700.

You do not have a clue what poor is. The so called poor in the USA are rich compared to over 90% of the rest of the world. That is why the REAL poor want to come to this country.

If your outlook is poor and you have a crappy job, that could be your fault. No country in the world offers the opportunity as this country. My parents grew up in the depression. My dad could not go to high school because they were too poor to buy books. Liberals like you make me want to go puke. Life is what you make of it. Pessimistic people will always be miserable and happiness will escape them.

Rebel Yell
10-17-2011, 11:51 AM
But I have always said that the poorest of the poor are the rural poor. They tend to have a lot less than the urban poor, and certainly less than the professionally poor.

Yet, they tend to bitch the least. Rural poor also tends to be amongthe most self sufficient people in the nation.

NJCardFan
10-17-2011, 11:53 AM
His post might need some work but so does your response. This crap of, "When I was a kid I played with an old tire, and I liked it." is just that: crap. Part of being an American is that poverty isn't the unrelenting desperation we see in Africa. Even the Jode family had some relief from time to time.

Poverty also means poor today and the outlook is poor. So when you have virtually nothing and a crappy job and not much in the way of prospects, you manage to give your kid a little something when you can. By your logic, you shouldn't buy your kid anything, because you aren't financially independent, and you never know when you might get laid off and need the money you just spent on a tricycle.

Notice how no one ever says, "He says he's poor, but just look at that kid of his on a tricycle!" Tricycles start at $59 at Walmart. Tricycles for disabled kids runs $400 - $700.

And, as usual, your idiocy leaks through. Yes the Jodes found relief once in a while but you didn't see them blowing what little they had going to the movies did you. The point is, if you can barely afford to eat then you certainly can ill afford a gaming system. The funny thing is that so called poor people have stuff that even I don't have because I tend to use my money for necessities. And I make over $60K a year.

Rebel Yell
10-17-2011, 11:56 AM
I don't know why people obsess over TV's and stuff. If you go to any Goodwill store you can find TV's for under $100, Goodwill outlet stores sells big-screen TV's for under $50.

Not around here they don't. Yet, I still see flat screen TV's in the homes of "the poor".

Rebel Yell
10-17-2011, 11:58 AM
Middle Class: makes from $50,000 to $200,000/year

WOOOHOOOO!!!!!! I'm poor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yet, I own my home (still paying for it) and 4 vehicles (3 are paid for). Funny how far "the poor" can stretch their dollar with proper budgeting.

Tipsycatlover
10-17-2011, 12:03 PM
The "poor" buy toys at Christmas! Since when?

They beg them from Toys for Tots or some other charity. The "poor" go from give away to give away. Then the parents take the toys and sell them for crack.

fettpett
10-17-2011, 12:13 PM
My pension and our combined SS total $32k/year (without a COLA for two years despite inflation), so I guess we're poor - except we own our three bedroom AC'd house and two vehicles free and clear, pay for health insurance, have four TVs, two VCRs and Dish satellite, two PCs, four sweet dogs, two guns, manage a modest savings account,...I could go on.

It's not what you have, it's what you do with what you have. That's called budgeting and managing your income. THAT'S middle class.

no, I agree...just going by what the Tax code considers middle class. Much of it depends on family size as well.

Wei Wu Wei
10-17-2011, 01:28 PM
However, when buying said XBox then complaining that you don't have enough food or you don't have medical insurance.

$100 for a toy that several kids that play with for years isn't the most unreasonable thing in the world.

I'm not going to claim that there aren't somepeople who waste their money, there are, but they don't represent everyone who is struggling.


But don't give me this guff about buying an XBox just to keep a kid away from crackheads. Being a responsible parent keeps kids away from crackheads.

If a child lives in the projects, or lives motel to motel, or lives in areas that are infested with crime, where do they play?

They take 10 steps outside their front door and they will find drug dealers.

I've lived in areas like that when I was young and I know many people who live like that today. In some areas, just being outside of your home is a dangerous place for kids.

Suppose a single mother is working double shifts, or long hours (or hell even normal hours) at her low-paying job, who is protecting those children?

They can't afford babysitters, so often times the kids are left alone, with a young teen sibling watching over them. This isn't what the parents want, but they don't have options that middle class people do.


If you want to entertain a kid, take him to the library

That's a good idea, but a lot of these low-income families don't have cars, they walk to work or rely on public transportation and taking their kids to another location that may not be close to their job as a means of alternative babysitting isn't realistic. A lot of therse children have behavioral problems too. Children who don't have a steady home life, who face family financial troubles and know that they are poor often times act out in ways that gets them in trouble. They aren't "bad", they just aren't mature enough yet to cope with their lives. Parents who work multiple low-paying jobs are often times under extreme stress themselves, they aren't professional therapists and they sure as hell can't affod to see any.

It's not uncommon that the kids who need places like libraries the most are kicked out.


and do you know how much games cost? $60 a pop.


When you buy them new. There's no reason to assume these people get a new game every week from best buy. A kid may get a handheld gaming system like a PSP from a resell shop like Goodwill, they may get 1 or two games from their parents throughout the year, also from resell shops. Charities often donates these toys to needy families as well. Sometimes other family members pitch in for the kid, with aunts and uncles or grandparents throwing $10 each for a game.

It may not be necessary for survival, I'll grant you that, but suggesting that these people are living it up throwing hundreds of dollars left and right for toys and games, because like just like living in motels is absurd.


Oh, and gaming systems are luxuries. We didn't have these things growing up and we didn't hang around with gangs. You're just copping out and making excuses.

I did grow up in a bad neighborhood, and my family didn't have money. There were gangs around, there was violence. I saw a man get shot at a very young age right outside of my home. There was a damn good reason for my parents to do everything they could to keep me inside. My dad had to make my toys himself, welding them out of pieces of scrap metal, and I was given books to read. Every now and then I'd get a nice toy and I can't describe how happy I was.

Children growing up like that often have no real childhood, they are forced to grow depressed and jaded before they are even 10 and it's common that they fall into the bad environment that is all around them. Often times poor parents are just trying to give their kids a little piece of childhood by giving them toys.

It's sad to see how eager everyone is to comdemn the poor, when in the end it's children who suffer the most from it.

Wei Wu Wei
10-17-2011, 01:31 PM
The "poor" buy toys at Christmas! Since when?

They beg them from Toys for Tots or some other charity. The "poor" go from give away to give away. Then the parents take the toys and sell them for crack.

Most of my younger cousins got their Christmas presents from "Blue Santa" .

Some poor parents are sometimes able, (not always though), to put aside $10 each paycheck for a few months in order to buy their kid a once-a-year Christmas present.

Other struggling families are not able to. If someone gets sick or some other unexpected expense comes up that whole plan is scrapped.

Rockntractor
10-17-2011, 01:36 PM
Most of my younger cousins got their Christmas presents from "Blue Santa" .

Some poor parents are sometimes able, (not always though), to put aside $10 each paycheck for a few months in order to buy their kid a once-a-year Christmas present.

Other struggling families are not able to. If someone gets sick or some other unexpected expense comes up that whole plan is scrapped.

I'm guessing then that you have a toys for tots charity you give to, which one is it?

Wei Wu Wei
10-17-2011, 01:57 PM
The point is that the left is making it sound like we have people starving in the streets. I mean, look at these idiots complaining about health insurance. I hear people complaining about it all the time...then see them jump into a Mercedes or an Escalade and drive off. I think that maybe, and that's a big maybe, .000000001% of this country's population can be considered straight up dirt, don't have 2 nickels to rub together, eating ketchup soup 3 times a day poor. The rest have their priorities out of whack.

A few things.

That .00000001% is something you just pulled out of thin air. There are numbers out there, and granted the numbers are a little fuzzy sometimes and often times the same number means different things in different circumstances, but to take a little uncertainty and run with it to assume that almost nobody is actually poor is a little silly.

First of all, the number you cited there is 1 billionth of 1 percent.

That means out of 350 million people, 1% if that is 3.5 Million, and 1 billionth of that is 0.0035 of a single person. If we round up that is 4 one thousanths of a single person, perhaps one of their hairs? That means that if the US population was 4 thousand times larger, we'd have a single poor person.

I know you didn't mean that number exactly, but it illustrates your mindset. In your mind, a very rough estimate of US poverty is that if you got the US demographics, increased it to a population of 1 and a half trillion people, that a single person would be poor.



You don't want to believe there are people who are struggling, or if you do, you must believe it is 100% thier own fault, because you have this naive notion that the world is just, the world is fair, and anyone who is in a bad situation is there because they deserve it.



2nd, it's easy to be poor even if you have a little money. A very basic 1 or 2 bedroom apartment for a family in a city can cost between $700 and $1200 a month, to even qualify to move in, you have to pass credit checks which may be difficult for a truly struggling family. Assuming they have good enough credit to qualify, most places require proof of income that exceeds 3 times the monthly rental cost, which can mean around $3,000 per month.

Assuming full time 40-hour a week work (which is often times unavailable, with many struggling parents being forced to take part-time jobs), that comes out to $18.75 per hour, or as little as $13 per hour.

So if we take a single parent in a city, just to get approved for a basic apartment can cost up to $18 an hour. If we have a woman working at Jack in the Box, or waiting tables at a diner, or cleaning motel rooms, she quite simply isn't going to make enough money for a secure home.

So she may be bringing home a regular paycheck, but she can't afford a home, she may have to live in motels, find roommates (and adult roommates can be dangerous when they have kids). ect.

Sure making $200 a week would be great for a poor family in ethopia, but in the United States that simply isn't enough to make it. Add in the crime, drugs, and problems that come with American poor neighborhoods, and it stops being about comfort, it's about safety..

Rockntractor
10-17-2011, 02:09 PM
I'm guessing then that you have a toys for tots charity you give to, which one is it?

Crickets.:confused:

Wei Wu Wei
10-17-2011, 02:12 PM
I'm guessing then that you have a toys for tots charity you give to, which one is it?

I donate items and time/labor to a few local organizations. That doesn't matter though.

"True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar; it comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring.
― Martin Luther King Jr.



I worked hard throughout my life. Throughout high school and college I worked non-stop. Fast food, factories, outside in the brutal Texas heat, and more cushy environments like research labs and academic settings.

My family was the working poor when I was a child, and today I'm more comfortable. However, I'm not going to pat myself on the back and say "well if you are poor that's just because you aren't as smart or hard working as I am!". That is cruel, that is wrong. Other members of my family didn't do so well, some did. Several people that I knew growing up in my neighborhood and school are dead today.

There were some aspects of the system that were stacked against me, and there were some aspects of the system that helped me to do better in life. In many cases I was simply lucky. I've known people who worked far harder than me their entire lives and never got to where I am today, because of factors out of their control. I count myself very lucky, and it's important for me to give back, but it's even more important to try to change the system so that people who are struggling actually have a fair shot.

This meritocracy nonsense is just masturbation for people who desperately need to feel good about themselves.

Tipsycatlover
10-17-2011, 02:49 PM
A few things.

That .00000001% is something you just pulled out of thin air. There are numbers out there, and granted the numbers are a little fuzzy sometimes and often times the same number means different things in different circumstances, but to take a little uncertainty and run with it to assume that almost nobody is actually poor is a little silly.

First of all, the number you cited there is 1 billionth of 1 percent.

That means out of 350 million people, 1% if that is 3.5 Million, and 1 billionth of that is 0.0035 of a single person. If we round up that is 4 one thousanths of a single person, perhaps one of their hairs? That means that if the US population was 4 thousand times larger, we'd have a single poor person.

I know you didn't mean that number exactly, but it illustrates your mindset. In your mind, a very rough estimate of US poverty is that if you got the US demographics, increased it to a population of 1 and a half trillion people, that a single person would be poor.



You don't want to believe there are people who are struggling, or if you do, you must believe it is 100% thier own fault, because you have this naive notion that the world is just, the world is fair, and anyone who is in a bad situation is there because they deserve it.



2nd, it's easy to be poor even if you have a little money. A very basic 1 or 2 bedroom apartment for a family in a city can cost between $700 and $1200 a month, to even qualify to move in, you have to pass credit checks which may be difficult for a truly struggling family. Assuming they have good enough credit to qualify, most places require proof of income that exceeds 3 times the monthly rental cost, which can mean around $3,000 per month.

Assuming full time 40-hour a week work (which is often times unavailable, with many struggling parents being forced to take part-time jobs), that comes out to $18.75 per hour, or as little as $13 per hour.

So if we take a single parent in a city, just to get approved for a basic apartment can cost up to $18 an hour. If we have a woman working at Jack in the Box, or waiting tables at a diner, or cleaning motel rooms, she quite simply isn't going to make enough money for a secure home.

So she may be bringing home a regular paycheck, but she can't afford a home, she may have to live in motels, find roommates (and adult roommates can be dangerous when they have kids). ect.

Sure making $200 a week would be great for a poor family in ethopia, but in the United States that simply isn't enough to make it. Add in the crime, drugs, and problems that come with American poor neighborhoods, and it stops being about comfort, it's about safety..

The struggling family gets Section 8 which means that the three bedroom two bath apartment that I would have to pay $2,500 a month for, they get for $250.00.

What you say is absolute and unmitigated crap.

Wei Wu Wei
10-17-2011, 03:13 PM
The struggling family gets Section 8 which means that the three bedroom two bath apartment that I would have to pay $2,500 a month for, they get for $250.00.

What you say is absolute and unmitigated crap.

Housing assistance programs do exist, I had a home when i was growing up specifically because of programs like this.

There are problems though, as people who have credit problems or who have been evicted before are still denied housing despite section 8 provisions.

Also, the biggest factor is the wait time, there are many families on waiting lists to get benefits like this, and some families have to wait years. During that time where they are on a waiting list, they may wrack up poor credit paying their bills or food with credit cards or loans, or they may simply become evicted before they qualify for section 8, leading to problems later on even if they do get it.


These programs are good, but they are limited, and certain groups are often trying to strip these programs from funding or prevent their expansion, because these programs don't follow their utopian meritocracy ideologies.

Tipsycatlover
10-17-2011, 03:27 PM
Housing assistance programs do exist, I had a home when i was growing up specifically because of programs like this.

There are problems though, as people who have credit problems or who have been evicted before are still denied housing despite section 8 provisions.

Also, the biggest factor is the wait time, there are many families on waiting lists to get benefits like this, and some families have to wait years. During that time where they are on a waiting list, they may wrack up poor credit paying their bills or food with credit cards or loans, or they may simply become evicted before they qualify for section 8, leading to problems later on even if they do get it.


These programs are good, but they are limited, and certain groups are often trying to strip these programs from funding or prevent their expansion, because these programs don't follow their utopian meritocracy ideologies.

Meritocracy isn't utopian. Providing for eveyone on the dole is utopian. Work or starve. Naturally children can't suffer for their parents drug addiction or alcoholism. Start up the orphanages and take these kids away.

NJCardFan
10-17-2011, 04:02 PM
Meritocracy isn't utopian. Providing for eveyone on the dole is utopian. Work or starve. Naturally children can't suffer for their parents drug addiction or alcoholism. Start up the orphanages and take these kids away.

I have someone elses child in my house.

Tipsycatlover
10-17-2011, 04:09 PM
I have someone elses child in my house.

SInce we cannot mandate that everyone take in unwanted or neglected children where will the excess go? Foster care, or orphanages!

txradioguy
10-17-2011, 04:12 PM
Crickets.:confused:

You expect a military hater to donate to something that is supported by the USMC?

Wei Wu Wei
10-17-2011, 04:16 PM
You expect a military hater to donate to something that is supported by the USMC?

lol what?

Novaheart
10-17-2011, 04:56 PM
You expect a military hater to donate to something that is supported by the USMC?


I hope they have changed their policy since that time, but back in the late 1970's the Commandant of the Marine Corps made a particularly stupid remark about a toys for tots drive at the largest discotheque in DC. In essence, he said the Corps didn't need the help of the queers. An owner of the Lost And Found was a former marine, and from then on the toy drive was for Children's Hospital National Medical Center. People have long memories.

Odysseus
10-17-2011, 06:58 PM
Most of my younger cousins got their Christmas presents from "Blue Santa" .

Some poor parents are sometimes able, (not always though), to put aside $10 each paycheck for a few months in order to buy their kid a once-a-year Christmas present.

Other struggling families are not able to. If someone gets sick or some other unexpected expense comes up that whole plan is scrapped.
And some parents drink the Christmas gift money, or smoke it, or mainline it, or blow it on the ponies, dice or cards. Federal programs are miserable at differentiating between people who are "struggling" and people who are shooting themselves in the foot and then demanding that we respect their disabilities.

I donate items and time/labor to a few local organizations. That doesn't matter though.

"True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar; it comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring.
― Martin Luther King Jr.[/QUOTE}
And yet, you keep arguing for unions, socialism and other programs that beggar whole industries and nations.

[QUOTE=Wei Wu Wei;457817]I worked hard throughout my life. Throughout high school and college I worked non-stop. Fast food, factories, outside in the brutal Texas heat, and more cushy environments like research labs and academic settings.

My family was the working poor when I was a child, and today I'm more comfortable. However, I'm not going to pat myself on the back and say "well if you are poor that's just because you aren't as smart or hard working as I am!". That is cruel, that is wrong. Other members of my family didn't do so well, some did. Several people that I knew growing up in my neighborhood and school are dead today.
And why is that? What caused their premature deaths? What is it that they did, or failed to do, that you are obscuring as you demand that we take responsibility for everyone else? No one is telling you that you should pat yourself on the back. We're telling you to stop stabbing us in the back.


There were some aspects of the system that were stacked against me, and there were some aspects of the system that helped me to do better in life. In many cases I was simply lucky. I've known people who worked far harder than me their entire lives and never got to where I am today, because of factors out of their control. I count myself very lucky, and it's important for me to give back, but it's even more important to try to change the system so that people who are struggling actually have a fair shot.

This meritocracy nonsense is just masturbation for people who desperately need to feel good about themselves.
Bull. People make their own luck, for the most part, and when you are presented with a bad break, the solution is to take responsibility for yourself and drive on, and if you succeed, you can take credit for it. If you fail, get back up and keep working. The morons who are crapping all over a privately owned park in Manhattan are whining about their student debt, but it doesn't seem to have occurred to them that spending $60K per year on classes in Marxist dialectics and other fantasies wouldn't put them in a position to pay back their loans.

You expect a military hater to donate to something that is supported by the USMC?

Wei doesn't hate the military, he just hates the US and Israeli militaries. I'm sure that he has lovely things to say about the Venezuelan, Cuban, Belorussian and other assorted thugs in uniform that threaten liberty. It's the militaries that defend free, prosperous nations that he hates.

MrsSmith
10-17-2011, 08:56 PM
$100 for a toy that several kids that play with for years isn't the most unreasonable thing in the world.

I'm not going to claim that there aren't somepeople who waste their money, there are, but they don't represent everyone who is struggling. They represent way too many. As from my earlier list, I've been a very poor single mom, and as you did, I worked my way out of it. That really requires staying off illegal drugs, being responsible, paying bills before buying anything else, and learning how to do the things you can't afford to hire someone else to do. Most of the people that don't make it ...don't do those things.

It's not my fault that someone else is less responsible, more self-serving, more selfish, and lazier. I don't at all mind helping those that are not ABLE to do better, but I see no reason to help those that do waste it on luxuries for themselves. The only way out of poverty is being responsible and working hard. A hand from someone else should be no more than what is required to get a decent education and a decent job. Those that just can't bring themselves to be responsible should end up with nothing...right down to losing their kids.

It's wrong to rob from the responsible, hard-working people to support those that prefer to smoke/drink/eat/waste everything they earn and are given. The best way to handle charity is through churches and food banks, where people get shelter, food and clothing instead of money.

I have known those that would spend all their money on "wants" and then go begging for their needs...and their children's needs. They are the majority of those on assistance. Of those I personally knew, the vast majority of those have found ways to remain on the taxpayer dollar; if by no other means, then they eat themselves into a disability check.

Rockntractor
10-17-2011, 09:06 PM
I have someone elses child in my house.

That is very good of you to do that.:)

NJCardFan
10-17-2011, 09:11 PM
That is very good of you to do that.:)

Thanks. We're hoping we get to keep him.

Novaheart
10-17-2011, 09:19 PM
Thanks. We're hoping we get to keep him.

One can only imagine the number of times you have been crushed with disappointment. I hope you get to keep this one, for the benefit of all involved.