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View Full Version : LA struggles to cope with possessions of homeless



Rockntractor
10-30-2011, 12:35 AM
The sidewalk is public property, but the possessions are hers and her neighbors, setting up a conflict between the homeless and a city trying to bring order where chaos reigns.
Story at link>http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/la-struggles-to-cope-1212664.html

Novaheart
10-30-2011, 10:26 AM
It's emotionally frustrating for me. On the one hand, I feel bad to begrudge the homeless the very space they take up. On the other hand, if one group of people are allowed to in essence convert public space into private space then why couldn't everyone else do the same?

Hell, I called the police last night because some people had closed 30th Avenue for one block for a party. Yes, it was jut a party, perhaps even a child's birthday party, but somehow in fifty some years of birthdays, I have never needed to close the street for my birthday or that of a child. It was rude and inconsiderate, and the worst part was that they had a permit.

Rockntractor
10-30-2011, 10:54 AM
It's emotionally frustrating for me. On the one hand, I feel bad to begrudge the homeless the very space they take up. On the other hand, if one group of people are allowed to in essence convert public space into private space then why couldn't everyone else do the same?

Hell, I called the police last night because some people had closed 30th Avenue for one block for a party. Yes, it was jut a party, perhaps even a child's birthday party, but somehow in fifty some years of birthdays, I have never needed to close the street for my birthday or that of a child. It was rude and inconsiderate, and the worst part was that they had a permit.

I left the article with the feeling that these poor people are sick and need to be cared for in institutions.
Turning mentally ill people out on the street to fend for themselves and calling it their right , is disgusting and should not be done by civilized people.

Novaheart
10-30-2011, 11:08 AM
I left the article with the feeling that these poor people are sick and need to be cared for in institutions.
Turning mentally ill people out on the street to fend for themselves and calling it their right , is disgusting and should not be done by civilized people.

We used to pay social workers to decide who was on the street by a rational choice, and who was on the street because they were not capable of making a good decision. I can't imagine why people went to court to stop that, but I have to assume that there was some compelling reason for them to do so. It just hasn't worked out all that well. There has to be a working solution.

But even if most of these people aren't acutely mentally ill, few of them are actually employable. People say "Get a job." but I don't know if these folks could even be pickers. Picking is physically demanding. No one would hire them to work in a store, they are too damaged. If you put them in residence halls, then someone has to clean up after them, and they tend to prey on one another.

About the only thing certain is that street life can't be the best solution.

noonwitch
10-31-2011, 10:32 AM
A couple of years ago, there was a homeless guy with lots of stuff living under one of the ramps from the Lodge Freeway to I-75. It was not a spot easily accessed by pedestrians. One day, all his stuff was gone. I always wondered what happened to him.


I pass a couple of guys every day on Mt. Elliot, who are always hanging out with plastic bags filled with their possessions. They hang out at an abandoned KFC/Taco Bell near the abandoned Packard factory (which is slowly collapsing). It's still not cold enough for them to go to the shelter, where all their stuff gets stolen.

Odysseus
10-31-2011, 11:37 AM
Hell, I called the police last night because some people had closed 30th Avenue for one block for a party. Yes, it was jut a party, perhaps even a child's birthday party, but somehow in fifty some years of birthdays, I have never needed to close the street for my birthday or that of a child. It was rude and inconsiderate, and the worst part was that they had a permit.

So, you called the cops on people who weren't breaking the law, just because they inconvenienced you and were doing something that your parents hadn't done when you were a kid? And that's assuming that it was a child's party, rather than a block party or some other function. But, let's say that it was a child's party: Are you that jealous of someone else's parental affection that you feel the need to attack them, even when they have gone to the trouble of satisfying the legal requirements to have their party?

That's amazingly petty.

Novaheart
10-31-2011, 12:13 PM
So, you called the cops on people who weren't breaking the law, just because they inconvenienced you and were doing something that your parents hadn't done when you were a kid?

No, I called the police because a group of people who are routinely inconsiderate had actually barricaded the street that evening rather than simply milling about in the street and "visiting" with their friends. It was only after calling the police that I knew that they had a permit. The city should not have issued a permit to close a collector roadway, half of which is not in St Petersburg.



And that's assuming that it was a child's party, rather than a block party or some other function. .

I only assumed it was a child's birthday party because of the Bouncy Castle, the house was decorated for Halloween. The music they were playing (Which could be heard from my mother's house a block away) was neither children's music nor was it Halloween music, it was simply the noise we are treated to on a regular basis by the residents of the house in question.


But, let's say that it was a child's party: Are you that jealous of someone else's parental affection that you feel the need to attack them .........

Your skills at logic are only matched by your skills in psychology.

Odysseus
10-31-2011, 02:13 PM
No, I called the police because a group of people who are routinely inconsiderate had actually barricaded the street that evening rather than simply milling about in the street and "visiting" with their friends. It was only after calling the police that I knew that they had a permit. The city should not have issued a permit to close a collector roadway, half of which is not in St Petersburg.
Ah, now we have routinely inconsiderate, rather than just "some people." How would anyone here know that without you telling us? And without you telling us that it was a collector roadway we'd have had some difficulty figuring that out, too. And, of course, even if it is a collector road, it was still the weekend, but I guess that you know more about urban planning than the local PD. :rolleyes:


I only assumed it was a child's birthday party because of the Bouncy Castle, the house was decorated for Halloween. The music they were playing (Which could be heard from my mother's house a block away) was neither children's music nor was it Halloween music, it was simply the noise we are treated to on a regular basis by the residents of the house in question.
So, it was a Halloween party? On the weekend before Halloween? And they got a permit to subject you to noise? The nerve of some people! :rolleyes:


Your skills at logic are only matched by your skills in psychology.

Considering that you expect me to be able to read your mind about your past with these neighbors, the configuration of the local roads and all manner of back story, you obviously hold my psychology skills in some esteem.

Novaheart
10-31-2011, 02:37 PM
Considering that you expect me to be able to read your mind about your past with these neighbors, the configuration of the local roads and all manner of back story, you obviously hold my psychology skills in some esteem.

Well, you could have simply allowed that I didn't call the police for no reason. I am a neighborhood watch of one, not Gladys Kravitz.

A collector road is more than a higher traffic road for commuters around here. We don't have a lot of commuting around here. A collector roadway is the road that has fewer stop signs, is usually wider than adjacent streets, and is used by everyone including emergency vehicles to get into and out of neighborhoods, and near a house on a narrow residential street. Our collector roads are about every fifth avenue, every tenth street.

Odysseus
10-31-2011, 04:09 PM
Well, you could have simply allowed that I didn't call the police for no reason. I am a neighborhood watch of one, not Gladys Kravitz.
I'm sure that Gladys Kravitz thought the same thing. I'm also sure that Abner Kravitz wouldn't have bought your assumption either.


A collector road is more than a higher traffic road for commuters around here. We don't have a lot of commuting around here. A collector roadway is the road that has fewer stop signs, is usually wider than adjacent streets, and is used by everyone including emergency vehicles to get into and out of neighborhoods, and near a house on a narrow residential street. Our collector roads are about every fifth avenue, every tenth street.

So it's not like they don't have alternate routes, and on a weekend, the traffic managers, who might have a better idea of traffic flow than you do, might have thought that the risk of disaster was remote enough to grant the permit. I'm sure that the next time, they will ensure that you are consulted before they issue any permits or make any other decisions, no matter how large or small.

Novaheart
10-31-2011, 04:47 PM
So it's not like they don't have alternate routes........

It is a fundamental difference in culture. In the waterfront district people entertain inside their houses or in their back yards, privately. This was not only an inconvenience, it was an intrusion and an assault on the culture, of privacy and consideration. It's also aggressive. I have had to call the police on these same people for violations of the rules at the beach, the last time they had an open fire cooker, alcohol, and some kid running up and down the beach on an ATV all of which are no-noes. And don't get me started on their lawn, the fact that they hardly ever put their trash can away, and their kids playing in the street even when it isn't blocked off. The house is a nuisance.

DumbAss Tanker
10-31-2011, 06:15 PM
We used to pay social workers to decide who was on the street by a rational choice, and who was on the street because they were not capable of making a good decision. I can't imagine why people went to court to stop that, but I have to assume that there was some compelling reason for them to do so.

Not so much. It was really pretty much the ACLU pushing the bias for institutionalizing these people from the "Probably nuts and needs to go in for his/her own good, whether they agree or not" point on the spectrum, all the way up the scale to "Clear and present immediate danger to themselves or others, and I mean no shit!"

Medical/psych care providers are risk adverse when it comes to their malpractice premiums and professional licenses, and who can blame them? They aren't responsible for the legal and insurance systems that will punish them if they don't pay attention to that. None of them wanted to be painted as Nurse Ratchet in a courtroom drama, so they went the way the ACLU wanted.

Odysseus
10-31-2011, 09:38 PM
It is a fundamental difference in culture. In the waterfront district people entertain inside their houses or in their back yards, privately. This was not only an inconvenience, it was an intrusion and an assault on the culture, of privacy and consideration. It's also aggressive. I have had to call the police on these same people for violations of the rules at the beach, the last time they had an open fire cooker, alcohol, and some kid running up and down the beach on an ATV all of which are no-noes. And don't get me started on their lawn, the fact that they hardly ever put their trash can away, and their kids playing in the street even when it isn't blocked off. The house is a nuisance.

OMG!!! You realize that you've become the cranky geezer who has nothing better to do than chase kids off your lawn? Oh, that is funny!

:rotfl:

Novaheart
10-31-2011, 09:51 PM
OMG!!! You realize that you've become the cranky geezer who has nothing better to do than chase kids off your lawn? Oh, that is funny!

:rotfl:

Was there ever any doubt?

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.
Ayn Rand

Odysseus
10-31-2011, 10:05 PM
Was there ever any doubt?

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.
Ayn Rand

Yes, but the crotchety old guy isn't concerned with privacy. He's a busybody and a snoop, the Gladys Kravitz of the neighborhood, as you put it before.

Novaheart
10-31-2011, 10:10 PM
Yes, but the crotchety old guy isn't concerned with privacy. He's a busybody and a snoop, the Gladys Kravitz of the neighborhood, as you put it before.

Gladys Kravitz wanted to know why Aunt Hagatha was on the roof. I don't care, I want her to shut the hell up and I don't want the rescue truck to block my driveway.

noonwitch
11-01-2011, 08:58 AM
Not so much. It was really pretty much the ACLU pushing the bias for institutionalizing these people from the "Probably nuts and needs to go in for his/her own good, whether they agree or not" point on the spectrum, all the way up the scale to "Clear and present immediate danger to themselves or others, and I mean no shit!"

Medical/psych care providers are risk adverse when it comes to their malpractice premiums and professional licenses, and who can blame them? They aren't responsible for the legal and insurance systems that will punish them if they don't pay attention to that. None of them wanted to be painted as Nurse Ratchet in a courtroom drama, so they went the way the ACLU wanted.



Adult foster care is cheaper than state hospitals, and that also played a part in the de-institutionalization of the mentally ill.

Today, with new medications that have less side effects, a good number of people who would have been institutionalized in the past are able to live in community settings, either with family or in a group home. But there is always a group of patients who either refuse to take medications or for whom medication is not effective who require institutionalization-if they aren't in a mental hospital, they will end up in prison.

DumbAss Tanker
11-01-2011, 10:31 AM
Adult foster care is cheaper than state hospitals, and that also played a part in the de-institutionalization of the mentally ill. .

That was the rationale, of course for the ones who really should have been institutionalized they very often chose to wander off instead.


Today, with new medications that have less side effects, a good number of people who would have been institutionalized in the past are able to live in community settings, either with family or in a group home. But there is always a group of patients who either refuse to take medications or for whom medication is not effective who require institutionalization-if they aren't in a mental hospital, they will end up in prison.

My experience with people who should really be institutionalized but for their meds is that sooner or later the meds have been working to keep them stable long enough that they think they're normal or even cured, and stop taking them with the predictable (To anyone else) result.

noonwitch
11-01-2011, 11:51 AM
My experience with people who should really be institutionalized but for their meds is that sooner or later the meds have been working to keep them stable long enough that they think they're normal or even cured, and stop taking them with the predictable (To anyone else) result.


The problem is that once the patient got stabilized, he started to feel the side effects of the Thorazine or Haldol. On top of that, a moderate dosage of Haldol requires a prescription for Cogentin, because Haldol causess people to grind their teeth, and to get mung around their mouths. Then, the patient no longer wants to deal with the dizziness, the drugged-up feeling, and so on.


There are some better drugs, now. Depakote is a good one for some people, so is Risperdol (which can be used in low doses to assist mildly autistic people develop better focus, and in higher doses, to treat schizophrenia). My favorite shrink these days works in a home for psychiatrically disturbed teenaged girls-he's like a mad scientist. Each case is different, and each kid has different behavioral and perceptive factors to address.