PDA

View Full Version : Goldline Execs Charged With Fraud



The Night Owl
11-01-2011, 06:40 PM
Goldline Execs Charged With Fraud
By MATTHEW MOSK and BRIAN ROSS (@brianross)
Nov. 1, 2011

Goldline, a company that used endorsements from Glenn Beck and other conservative icons to sell hundreds of millions of dollars to consumers, has been charged with theft and fraud in a 19-count criminal complaint filed Tuesday by local officials in California.

The criminal complaint filed Tuesday by the Santa Monica City Attorney's consumer protection unit marks the latest in a series of allegations it has leveled against the gold dealer, which pioneered the practice of weaving its sales pitches into broadcasts by popular conservative political personalities -- including two former presidential candidates -- to sell hundreds of millions of dollars worth of gold every year.

The complaint alleges that Goldline "runs a bait and switch operation in which customers, seeking to invest in gold bullion, are switched to highly overpriced coins by using false and misleading claims," according to a statement released by the consumer affairs division of the Santa Monica City Attorney's office.

...

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/goldline-execs-charged-fraud/story?id=14857253

I wonder if Mr. Beck is going to get rolled up with the Goldline crooks he shills for.

Zathras
11-01-2011, 07:21 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mdi0ddP3Pqs/S7epi_er7nI/AAAAAAAAAA8/NJMYENLj0GM/s1600/trash_bad_mexico.jpg

What is it with the Swoop n Poop trolls these days??? First DUmbass128 shows up, then this idiot. Would someone please check the garbage cans and make sure their lids are on tight....they seem to be attracting flies by the name of DUmbass 128 and The Shit Bird. who knows who else will drop in.

Rockntractor
11-01-2011, 07:25 PM
What is it with the Swoop n Poop trolls these days??? First DUmbass128 shows up, then this idiot. Would someone please check the garbage cans and make sure their lids are on tight....they seem to be attracting flies by the name of DUmbass 128 and The Shit Bird. who knows who else will drop in.
The lawsuit is meaningless, they offer both gold and coins, a city attorney from a liberal city in California filing suit means nothing.

SarasotaRepub
11-01-2011, 07:38 PM
I guess if Goldline broke the law they will pay.

But it sounds like the Left is more interested in attacking Beck, Goldline is just the vehicle.

JB
11-01-2011, 07:39 PM
If Beck broke the law, he gets charged with a crime.

Is this some kind of gotcha thing? Cause it ain't.

Rockntractor
11-01-2011, 07:42 PM
I guess if Goldline broke the law they will pay.

But it sounds like the Left is more interested in attacking Beck, Goldline is just the vehicle.

This case has gone on since 08, nothing new, it is just more political fodder.

The Night Owl
11-01-2011, 07:54 PM
The lawsuit is meaningless, they offer both gold and coins, a city attorney from a liberal city in California filing suit means nothing.

The problem is not what products Goldline offers but how it's offering those products. If people are being tricked into believing that Goldline's "collectible coins" are worth more than they're worth then the goverment has a legitimate case against Goldline. So it will come down to what execs are telling sales reps to say to customers and what sales reps are saying to customers.

Rockntractor
11-01-2011, 07:56 PM
The problem is not what products Goldline offers but how it's offering those products. If people are being tricked into believing that Goldline's "collectible coins" are worth more that they're worth then the goverment has a legitimate case against Goldline. So the case is going to be about what execs are telling sales reps to say to customers and what sales reps are saying to customers.

The suit will go nowhere, just watch.

The Night Owl
11-01-2011, 07:58 PM
This case has gone on since 08, nothing new, it is just more political fodder.

The investigation is old. The charges are new.

Rockntractor
11-01-2011, 08:01 PM
The investigation is old. The charges are new.

It would be nice if Santa Monica had to pay all legal charges when they lose, but then again they are already broke because of all their other idiotic decisions.

The Night Owl
11-01-2011, 08:06 PM
The suit will go nowhere, just watch.

People said the investigation would go nowhere. And then came the charges.

Rockntractor
11-01-2011, 08:17 PM
People said the investigation would go nowhere. And then came the charges.

I hope you had a clean pair of shorts to put on when they made the announcement.:D

Zathras
11-01-2011, 08:33 PM
I guess if Goldline broke the law they will pay.

But it sounds like the Left is more interested in attacking Beck, Goldline is just the vehicle.

It works for The Shit Bird since he has an irrational, enormous hatred of Beck.

Zathras
11-01-2011, 08:34 PM
Swoop n poop, as usual.

Fixed.

Zathras
11-01-2011, 08:36 PM
If Beck broke the law, he gets charged with a crime.

Is this some kind of gotcha thing? Cause it ain't.

Anything that The Shit Bird posts here is a Gotcha moment in his drug addled brain, even when it isn't like this.

fettpett
11-02-2011, 09:11 AM
People said the investigation would go nowhere. And then came the charges.

they can and do bring any charges they want...doesn't mean they are going to stick or be proven in a Court of Law

Odysseus
11-02-2011, 09:28 AM
There is an old line about how a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.

Meanwhile, I believe that Night Owl owes us some answers on previous threads. Isn't crow part of an owl's diet?

Rockntractor
11-02-2011, 10:11 AM
There is an old line about how a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.

Meanwhile, I believe that Night Owl owes us some answers on previous threads. Isn't crow part of an owl's diet?
He needs to answer the post about his dead religion that I put in weather last night.

Novaheart
11-02-2011, 11:37 AM
I guess if Goldline broke the law they will pay.

But it sounds like the Left is more interested in attacking Beck, Goldline is just the vehicle.

When one listens to the Glenn Beck show, it's hard not to wonder how the sponsors pay the bills for such a high profile show and highly paid entertainer. Goldline, some cloud company, some cloud college, really a retinue of crappola. You never hear ads that you would expect a show with the supposed demographics of Beck's show to have. And the slimey way he leads into commercials, though not as slimey as Mark Levin and Sean Hannity.... integrity does not exude from this medium.

Mostly you don't hear ads from a range of companies, many many companies over the course of the show or the day. It's the same sponsors for all of these conservative talk show hosts, at least the ones whose names we can remember. One suspect that the real sponsorship isn't by commercials. The local rock radio shows and Idiot Yuckety Yucks in the Morning Shows are a barrage of car dealers, restaurants, nightclubs, stores, festivals, trades and services. Beck and Hewitt are gold, clouds, and Hannity of course is backed primarily by Amway or Herbalife scams it seems.

Articulate_Ape
11-02-2011, 11:54 AM
Two words: caveat emptor

noonwitch
11-02-2011, 11:59 AM
I would rather see them go after the gold company that uses a convicted felon as their spokesperson, i.e. Rosland Capital. :D

The Night Owl
11-02-2011, 12:44 PM
Two words: caveat emptor

What of it?

Articulate_Ape
11-02-2011, 01:20 PM
What of it?

Anyone who falls victim to "bait and switch" is a damned fool. If the company I buy gold bullion from tried to get me to buy something else, they would not be my gold company. Nowadays, fools either sue or file criminal complaints when they get duped as a result of their own ignorance.

I have little sympathy for imbeciles. That's probably why I don't feel sorry for you.

NJCardFan
11-02-2011, 01:48 PM
I would rather see them go after the gold company that uses a convicted felon as their spokesperson, i.e. Rosland Capital. :D

I take it you're referring to Liddy.

Hansel
11-03-2011, 12:56 PM
The problem is not what products Goldline offers but how it's offering those products. If people are being tricked into believing that Goldline's "collectible coins" are worth more than they're worth then the goverment has a legitimate case against Goldline. So it will come down to what execs are telling sales reps to say to customers and what sales reps are saying to customers.

I would think that the value of a collectible is very subjective. It is essentially worth what someone will pay for it.

The Night Owl
11-04-2011, 01:49 PM
I would think that the value of a collectible is very subjective. It is essentially worth what someone will pay for it.

The value of collectibles is to an extent subjective but that doesn't mean that sellers of collectibles are allowed to misrepresent their value.

Odysseus
11-04-2011, 04:49 PM
The value of collectibles is to an extent subjective but that doesn't mean that sellers of collectibles are allowed to misrepresent their value.

This is still just an allegation, and the tone of the article, which cites the links to conservative commentators several times before even addressing the claims of the case, makes it pretty obvious what the Santa Monica attorney's main concern is.

NJCardFan
11-04-2011, 11:08 PM
The value of collectibles is to an extent subjective but that doesn't mean that sellers of collectibles are allowed to misrepresent their value.

Baseball card dealers do it all the time. I used to frequent card shows a lot in the late 80's during the baseball card boom and can tell you that the value of certain cards were grossly misrepresented. Should those people have been jailed?

Odysseus
11-05-2011, 12:38 AM
Baseball card dealers do it all the time. I used to frequent card shows a lot in the late 80's during the baseball card boom and can tell you that the value of certain cards were grossly misrepresented. Should those people have been jailed?

Only if they were connected to Glenn Beck. :rolleyes::D

Articulate_Ape
11-05-2011, 01:11 AM
The value of collectibles is to an extent subjective but that doesn't mean that sellers of collectibles are allowed to misrepresent their value.

"If you order within the next hour we will send you two SliceWizard knives and our SliceWizard knife cookbook worth an additional $175.00. And that's not all! Order in the next 10 minutes and you will receive the SharpSnap knife sharpener, an $80.00 value, FREE! Just pay shipping and handling! Call now! Our operators are standing by!"


Sound familiar? As long as there are fools, there will be those who stand ready to part them from their money. Is it ethical? No. Is it criminal? No. Not unless being a moron is a crime; in which case your owl ass belongs behind bars with the rest of the imbeciles like you.

fettpett
11-05-2011, 08:23 AM
Baseball card dealers do it all the time. I used to frequent card shows a lot in the late 80's during the baseball card boom and can tell you that the value of certain cards were grossly misrepresented. Should those people have been jailed?

I've collected cards too, baseball and otherwise. Cards are only worth what their rarity is, whether it's due to low printing by the publisher, a player becomes popular or falls out of favor (becomes infamous). Values change All. The. TIME. That's why magazines like Beckett and Wizard are popular.

AmPat
11-05-2011, 10:09 AM
The problem is not what products Goldline offers but how it's offering those products. If people are being tricked into believing that Goldline's "collectible coins" are worth more than they're worth then the goverment has a legitimate case against Goldline. So it will come down to what execs are telling sales reps to say to customers and what sales reps are saying to customers.

Why are you ASSUMING a problem?
The suit merely CHARGES. The law suit still has yet to be PROSECUTED
The defendants have to have committed a CRIME
The prosecution must PROVE a CRIME has been committed
and the judge must find them GUILTY of said CRIME

Until the above happen, this is merely a lawsuit that amounts to ACCUSATIONS.

I accuse you of being STUPID. Am I automatically correct merely because I accused you or do you prefer to go through the process to disprove it?:rolleyes:

NJCardFan
11-05-2011, 11:19 AM
I've collected cards too, baseball and otherwise. Cards are only worth what their rarity is, whether it's due to low printing by the publisher, a player becomes popular or falls out of favor (becomes infamous). Values change All. The. TIME. That's why magazines like Beckett and Wizard are popular.
Allow me to tell you what I was referring to. 1990 Donruss or Upper Deck, I believe, had cards commemorating the 1989 all star game in Anaheim and the card was of Bo Jackson holding up the MVP trophy. In the corner of the card was the all star game logo which was the Angels A with All Star Game at the top and 1989 at the bottom. This dealer at a convention was trying to peddle it off as an error card because Jackson played for the KC Royals at the time. I pointed out in Beckett that the card was listed as a common and not an error and he continued to argue. He was trying to sell it for $10 when it was worth maybe 50 cents. Again, is it illegal? Nope. Wrong, yes.

The Night Owl
11-05-2011, 12:54 PM
Why are you ASSUMING a problem?
The suit merely CHARGES. The law suit still has yet to be PROSECUTED
The defendants have to have committed a CRIME
The prosecution must PROVE a CRIME has been committed
and the judge must find them GUILTY of said CRIME

Until the above happen, this is merely a lawsuit that amounts to ACCUSATIONS.

I accuse you of being STUPID. Am I automatically correct merely because I accused you or do you prefer to go through the process to disprove it?:rolleyes:

I said if, didn't I?

The Night Owl
11-05-2011, 01:11 PM
Baseball card dealers do it all the time. I used to frequent card shows a lot in the late 80's during the baseball card boom and can tell you that the value of certain cards were grossly misrepresented. Should those people have been jailed?

Baseball cards and gold coins are not perfectly analogous because one is made of worthless material and the other is made of valuable material.

What Goldline may have done is mislead buyers into believing that coins it priced according to bullshit numismatic value were priced according to the value of the metal used. In other words, Goldline may have been claiming that the metal used to make the numismatic coins it sells is more valuable than it actually is. If that's what they did then they committed fraud.

Zathras
11-05-2011, 02:45 PM
Baseball cards and gold coins are not perfectly analogous because one is made of worthless material and the other is made of valuable material.

What Goldline may have done is mislead buyers into believing that coins it priced according to bullshit numismatic value were priced according to the value of the metal used. In other words, Goldline may have been claiming that the metal used to make the numismatic coins it sells is more valuable than it actually is. If that's what they did then they committed fraud.

And the only reason you brought this up is because of your insane hatred for Glenn Beck. If they didn't advertise on his show you wouldn't have bothered Shit Bird and you know it.

And don't bother to deny it....it's a lie if you do. A big fat fucking lie.

AmPat
11-05-2011, 03:24 PM
I said if, didn't I?

Sure, right here:


I wonder if Mr. Beck is going to get rolled up with the Goldline crooks he shills for.
The if must ASSume that a crime has been committed, that the crime is proven, and that a judge agrees.

Many IFS right there don't you think?
Your If ASSUMES that all of the ACCUSATIONS are true, proven, and prosecuted successfully. Now ASSuming further, (as your ASSumption that Goldline personnel are "crooks"), how would the host of the show be prosecuted for alleged malfeasance of a company he does not own?:rolleyes:

fettpett
11-05-2011, 04:29 PM
Baseball cards and gold coins are not perfectly analogous because one is made of worthless material and the other is made of valuable material.

What Goldline may have done is mislead buyers into believing that coins it priced according to bullshit numismatic value were priced according to the value of the metal used. In other words, Goldline may have been claiming that the metal used to make the numismatic coins it sells is more valuable than it actually is. If that's what they did then they committed fraud.

no, the two don't equate exactly, but so what? it's an analogy for a reason idiot

The Night Owl
11-06-2011, 11:30 AM
Sure, right here:


The if must ASSume that a crime has been committed, that the crime is proven, and that a judge agrees.

Many IFS right there don't you think?
Your If ASSUMES that all of the ACCUSATIONS are true, proven, and prosecuted successfully. Now ASSuming further, (as your ASSumption that Goldline personnel are "crooks"), how would the host of the show be prosecuted for alleged malfeasance of a company he does not own?:rolleyes:

Based on what I've read, I think Beck and Goldline are a criminal operaration but I acknowledge that the law has yet to weigh in on the matter.

AmPat
11-06-2011, 11:38 AM
Based on what I've read, I think Beck and Goldline are a criminal operaration but I acknowledge that the law has yet to weigh in on the matter.

Another ASSumption that may prove correct. Now how do you tie Beck to Goldline? If that were to stick, then every single ad agency is complicit in all the false claims of thousands of products that don't work or were overly hyped. Disclaimers aside, the weight loss ads are gonna be a goldmine for lawyers.:eek::cool:

Novaheart
11-06-2011, 11:47 AM
Another ASSumption that may prove correct. Now how do you tie Beck to Goldline? If that were to stick, then every single ad agency is complicit in all the false claims of thousands of products that don't work or were overly hyped. Disclaimers aside, the weight loss ads are gonna be a goldmine for lawyers.:eek::cool:

Have you ever listened to Beck's morning AM radio show? He goes much farther than introducing the sponsor or even endorsing the sponsor. There is indeed some careful wording in play, but the end result is that Beck is telling his audience that if they have more than a little cash, then some of it should be in gold and that he has part of his money in gold, through Goldline, as an insurance policy against the collapse of the dollar (and the apocalypse).

It really is more than, "And now, a word from our sponsor...."

Novaheart
11-06-2011, 11:50 AM
I would rather see them go after the gold company that uses a convicted felon as their spokesperson, i.e. Rosland Capital. :D

It shook my faith in TV heros when I saw Harry Morgan being a scumbag for Colonial Penn insurance or some other POS operation. Robert Wagner selling reverse mortgage scams might be expected, but Colonel Potter? Did he really need the money that badly?

AmPat
11-06-2011, 12:00 PM
Have you ever listened to Beck's morning AM radio show? He goes much farther than introducing the sponsor or even endorsing the sponsor. There is indeed some careful wording in play, but the end result is that Beck is telling his audience that if they have more than a little cash, then some of it should be in gold and that he has part of his money in gold, through Goldline, as an insurance policy against the collapse of the dollar (and the apocalypse).

It really is more than, "And now, a word from our sponsor...."
Sure have. He believes in the product. I'm fairly certain that an opinion is still legal in this country. I don't see any court in the country, even complete moonbat insane judges, could make a case that Beck is complicit in any way with a company solely on the basis that he believes in it and he gets paid to promote it.:cool:

Novaheart
11-06-2011, 12:11 PM
Sure have. He believes in the product. I'm fairly certain that an opinion is still legal in this country. I don't see any court in the country, even complete moonbat insane judges, could make a case that Beck is complicit in any way with a company solely on the basis that he believes in it and he gets paid to promote it.:cool:

The salesman is as guilty of fraud as the company he represents.

AmPat
11-06-2011, 12:14 PM
The salesman is as guilty of fraud as the company he represents.

Beck is not a "salesman" for the company, he is a voice like any other you hear on radio. He is not connected to Goldline and can make no company decisions. The claims of the company must be supported by the company, not any advertisement entity.

Constitutionally Speaking
11-06-2011, 12:51 PM
Have you ever listened to Beck's morning AM radio show? He goes much farther than introducing the sponsor or even endorsing the sponsor. There is indeed some careful wording in play, but the end result is that Beck is telling his audience that if they have more than a little cash, then some of it should be in gold and that he has part of his money in gold, through Goldline, as an insurance policy against the collapse of the dollar (and the apocalypse).

It really is more than, "And now, a word from our sponsor...."


Diversification is amongst the SOUNDEST investing principles.

txradioguy
11-06-2011, 02:45 PM
The salesman is as guilty of fraud as the company he represents.

Unless it's Solyndra...FannieMae or Freddiemac.

Does your line of "reasoning" include Ed Schultz...Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy?

SPYDER
11-06-2011, 04:09 PM
Hoot owl, are you saying gold coins are worth no more than their weight in gold value?:eek:

txradioguy
11-06-2011, 04:22 PM
Based on what I've read, I think Beck and Goldline are a criminal operaration

If Glenn Beck crossed the street against a red light you'd want him to go to death row.

We get it asshat...you despise Glenn Beck.




but I acknowledge that the law has yet to weigh in on the matter.

Gee...I wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

Novaheart
11-06-2011, 04:29 PM
Unless it's Solyndra...FannieMae or Freddiemac.

Does your line of "reasoning" include Ed Schultz...Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy?

If Ed Shultz and those other two go from show content to promotion of the sponsor with no indication of leaving programming for sponsorship, and if those people say that they have personally invested in something that they know isn't worth what is being paid for it, then yeah my line of reasoning extends to them.


Simply selling ad time to a sponsor is not the same thing as being a spokesperson for that sponsor and making claims about the product.

Novaheart
11-06-2011, 04:32 PM
Hoot owl, are you saying gold coins are worth no more than their weight in gold value?:eek:

The complaint is pretty specific:


The complaint alleges that Goldline "runs a bait and switch operation in which customers, seeking to invest in gold bullion, are switched to highly overpriced coins by using false and misleading claims," according to a statement released by the consumer affairs division of the Santa Monica City Attorney's office.

AmPat
11-06-2011, 08:20 PM
The complaint is pretty specific:


The complaint alleges that Goldline "runs a bait and switch operation in which customers, seeking to invest in gold bullion, are switched to highly overpriced coins by using false and misleading claims," according to a statement released by the consumer affairs division of the Santa Monica City Attorney's office.

I guess Goldline FORCES them to switch. Those bastards! I can't wait until this gets prosecuted. I bet they don't even offer a choice. Maybe they'll actually have to refund money! gasp! Choke! Sputter!:rolleyes:

newshutr
11-06-2011, 09:10 PM
Did they sue Mean Joe Greene after the Coca-Cola commercial for contributing to diabetes in people..?

Get a life...

txradioguy
11-07-2011, 02:58 AM
The complaint is pretty specific:


The complaint alleges that Goldline "runs a bait and switch operation in which customers, seeking to invest in gold bullion, are switched to highly overpriced coins by using false and misleading claims," according to a statement released by the consumer affairs division of the Santa Monica City Attorney's office.

If this bullshit piece of litigation is successful everyone that advertises anything from laundry soap to cars face the possibility of the same kind of lawsuit.

Don't go to Best Buy on or any retail store on Black Friday.


:rolleyes:

wineslob
11-07-2011, 06:43 PM
I said if, didn't I?


I see you've learned well from BJ Clintoon.

The Night Owl
11-08-2011, 01:50 PM
Disclaimers aside, the weight loss ads are gonna be a goldmine for lawyers.:eek::cool:

You got that right.


The settlement imposes a $22.5 million judgment against Romeo and the two companies, which will be suspended when Romeo forfeits his vacation home in Vermont, and assigns to the FTC the right to collect on $635,000 in business loans owed to him. If it is later determined that the financial information Romeo gave the FTC was false, the full amount of the judgment will become due.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2011/11/hoodia-promoters-agree-to-shed-millions-of-dollars.html

True, not all fraud gets prosecuted, but that doesn't mean companies should feel free to make misleading claims about the products they sell. Seller beware!

The Night Owl
11-08-2011, 01:51 PM
I see you've learned well from BJ Clintoon.

I'm not challenging definitions here. I'm merely pointing out that I used the word if.

Rockntractor
11-08-2011, 02:31 PM
I'm not challenging definitions here. I'm merely pointing out that I used the word if.

How is your lice problem going?

Novaheart
11-08-2011, 03:51 PM
Sure, right here:


The if must ASSume that a crime has been committed, that the crime is proven, and that a judge agrees.

Many IFS right there don't you think?
Your If ASSUMES that all of the ACCUSATIONS are true, proven, and prosecuted successfully. Now ASSuming further, (as your ASSumption that Goldline personnel are "crooks"), how would the host of the show be prosecuted for alleged malfeasance of a company he does not own?:rolleyes:


I see you've learned well from BJ Clintoon.

Actually TNO is using the English language properly, a practice which is selectively honored by some (note the use of the conditional and limited qualifier) people here. All legal cases are discussed in a conditional way until they are resolved through the courts; which doesn't stop some people (including your truly) from declaring a summary judgement. We saw Judge Adams beat his daughter on video, we don't need to wait for a trial to have a concrete opinion on that one.

Novaheart
11-08-2011, 03:52 PM
How is your lice problem going?

Speaking of earthquakes, precisely how would we know if one had hit your town?

Rockntractor
11-08-2011, 03:58 PM
Speaking of earthquakes, precisely how would we know if one had hit your town?

Tipped over cows, duh!:D

fettpett
11-08-2011, 06:57 PM
Tipped over cows, duh!:D

wouldn't that be pigs?:confused:

Rockntractor
11-08-2011, 07:33 PM
wouldn't that be pigs?:confused:

We po folk, can't afford to feed pigs anymore, it has to be stuff that eats grass.

Tecate
11-26-2011, 02:10 PM
Believe me, Goldline isn't the only company who does this.

If you're going to buy gold coins or bars, you need to do some research beforehand so you understand the marketplace value of what you are buying before you spend one dime on anything. Do some research, and then do some more research. Be careful out there and don't get ripped off!

Almost ALL slabbed and graded modern gold bullion coins are a scam since none of them ever circulated as money anyway. Most of these will never be worth more than their gold melt value regardless of grade, date, or mint mark.

I actually received two letters in the mail from the Texas Attorney General's Office asking about my experience with an Austin based company who runs the same type of operation on a nationwide scale. Since I knew better, the only thing I purchased from them was ten 1/10th OZ gold Eagles for less than spot ($83 each at the time). It was a loss-leader special used to entice new customers for their other products. I still have them, and they're worth over two times that now. :D

I answered the TAGO request and called the number they printed in the letter. This company was under investigation for selling ridiculously overpriced numismatic coins. I told them that I had only purchased the loss-leader coin special from them, but fully understood the nature of the majority of their business. I couldn't claim that I had been ripped off because I hadn't. To this day I'm not sure how the whole thing turned out... As far as I know, they're still in business.